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Our team is stepping on each other's toes - how do we clarify roles?
116 Plays1 month ago
This week’s Scale-Up Confession comes from Sophie, who runs a software company that specialises in project cost estimation tools for architecture firms. Responding to Sophie's letter, Rob is joined by Korero's Leadership Team - Jo Harley, Steve Kennaird and Sean McSweeney to discuss possible solutions.
Thanks to our panellists:
Jo Harley - https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenmhitchcock/
Steve Kennaird - https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-kennaird/
Sean McSweeney - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-mcsweeney-b624b7122/
Connect with Us:
Have your own business question or leadership challenge? Please email Rob at rob@mission-group.co.uk (and let us know whether you would prefer a private answer or are happy to feature in a future episode).
You can also reach Rob on LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertliddiard/ or to book some free time https://www.eosworldwide.com/rob-liddiard).
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Transcript
Introduction to Scale Up Confessions
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, welcome to Scale Up Confessions, the show where we explore what it really feels like to lead and manage a scaling organization.
Rob's Experience with EOS and Yapster
00:00:09
Speaker
I'm Rob Liddiard. I was the founding CEO of a software business called Yapster that was acquired in 2022. And I'm now a professional implementer of the entrepreneurial operating system.
00:00:17
Speaker
or EOS, which means I work with entrepreneurs and entrepreneurial leadership teams to help them get more of what they want from their businesses.
Challenges in Sophie's Software Company
00:00:25
Speaker
Today's confession comes in from Sophie, who runs a software company where she's suffering from unclear roles and responsibilities and a bunch of other things that that we'll get into when I play the letter.
00:00:36
Speaker
I brought on my brilliant friends, the co-founders of Carrero, Joe, Steve and Sean, um For a couple of reasons. Firstly, their software products is all about creating great teams through um performance, cultural enhancing. They call them quarterly conversations or conversations at work. And Carrero is a system that enables you to make that more systematized and rigorous and to get data insights out of those conversations that should be happening between managers and colleagues.
00:01:04
Speaker
So they know a lot and care a lot about um about great teams. Also, they are a great team themselves that have gone through various stages of transformation. They worked together in a consulting business previously.
00:01:15
Speaker
and then two years ago, they span out to to form Carrero, which is more focused around their tech product.
Carrero's Approach to Team Clarity
00:01:21
Speaker
And they've gone on a journey of discovering clarity as between themselves as co-founders.
00:01:27
Speaker
And so I just thought they'd be brilliant people to to talk to Sophie and talk to those of you that that may be um running businesses where you've got a bunch of great people who love each other and perhaps are stepping on each other's toes every now and again.
00:01:41
Speaker
So you couldn't have a better panel for for this confession. And without further ado, I give you Joe, Steve and Sean from Carrero Responding to Sophie.
00:01:56
Speaker
team Carrero welcome to scale up confessions thank you for doing this all pleasure and so you're the spokesperson for the Carrero trio clearly Steve Sean welcome how much do you love doing podcasts absolutely could you not tell by our non-hello brilliant well the reason that I've invited you dragged two of you on this forum is we're doing you know this new format scale up confessions is trying to help ah shine a light on what it's really like leading and managing an entrepreneurial business. And today we've got a letter from Sophie, which I'm going to play in a second, talking about clarity of roles and responsibilities in a startup. And I sense you might have a thing or two to to confess yourself, share and opine on. So whilst Joe and I could have been fabulous visionaries together, it wouldn't have been nearly as meaningful for our listeners without without the brains but up behind the face. Right, Joe?
00:02:54
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, we need the clever people in the room for this one. Right. let me ah Let me hit play so that we can bring the listeners in on what we're what we're talking about here. Right. Here we go. Over to Sophie.
00:03:06
Speaker
Dear Rob, my name is Sophie and I run a software company that specialises in project cost estimation tools for architecture firms. Our product helps clients manage costs across complex building projects and demand has been steadily increasing as firms look to streamline operations.
00:03:28
Speaker
On the surface, things seem to be going well. We've just onboarded our 15th client and recurring revenue is growing However, internally we're struggling.
Sophie's Struggle with Flat Hierarchy
00:03:40
Speaker
ah Employees are confused about their roles, causing duplication of work, missed deadlines and frustration. For example, both our customer success manager and product manager scheduled separate follow-up calls with the same client after onboarding.
00:03:58
Speaker
meanwhile an important api update was delayed because no one on the development team knew who owned it this isn't a one-off issue our head of marketing says sales is asking her to join client meetings something she feels isn't her remit While our operations manager has flagged inefficiencies in managing workflows, but I've been too busy firefighting to address them.
00:04:26
Speaker
As the founder, I've maintained a flat hierarchy and an everyone pictures in culture, which worked well when we were a team of six. Now with 18 employees, I'm realizing this approach may be contributing to the chaos.
00:04:44
Speaker
At the same time, i don't want to stifle the collaborative spirit that's been key to our success. Rob, how do I untangle these overlapping responsibilities without demotivating my team or creating a ah ah rigid corporate structure?
00:05:03
Speaker
What practical steps can I take to clarify roles while staying agile and adaptable? Thanks for any advice, Sophie. ah sophie any of that sound familiar team not just in our businesses but like what you might have seen what's that sure it could have been us couldn't it i mean i'll tell you what is it worth starting i mean obviously i've teed this up in my intro to the episode but i mean joe our fearless visionary do you want to give people just a sense of like what carrero is and and you know i didn't invite you on just because you've
00:05:41
Speaker
structured and entrepreneurial business amongst yourselves. I know you have a thing or two
Carrero's Mission and EOS Framework
00:05:44
Speaker
to say about great people organisations. Yeah, so Carrero, the purpose of Carrero is for people to have better conversations, better careers and better lives.
00:05:54
Speaker
So it's all about um helping employees drive their own careers forward through really great career conversations, um for managers to be able to structure those conversations to get the most out of their people and for organisations to be able to understand what's going in their business in terms of their people from a development perspective, succession planning perspective, wellness um and performance.
00:06:18
Speaker
So, Yeah, it's sort of, I suppose, taking what used to be the once a year appraisal and making it ah more ongoing and, well, whoever got excited about an appraisal, so making it a sort of a conversation that both people want to have that will drive performance, really.
00:06:37
Speaker
So expectations have always been super clear in Carrera and every bit business that you guys have ever worked in together, I assume.
00:06:47
Speaker
Well... It's very easy to look at somebody else's organisation and tell them what they should be doing and how they should be doing it. But when it's your own, it's sometimes a bit more difficult, shall we say.
00:06:59
Speaker
Right. Well, tell you what, why don't we start by going around our virtual table and just I know that Sophie's not here for us to ask follow up questions. And I know that you'd need to ask clarifying questions to to give sort of concrete advice.
00:07:10
Speaker
So um why don't we start by just teeing up some of the issues that we've kind of the you know, we could we could get into some of the assumptions that we're going to have to make. I mean, Steve, where did your head go first and foremost when you listened to Sophie's confession? We're not looking to like resolve anything right now, but just what some of the themes for you?
00:07:28
Speaker
um Yeah, just how the business has sort organically grown. They've tried to keep that flat structure, but they are starting to really realise now that that is causing them pain. And the first place my head goes to is just that whilst you might want to keep that for some reasons, maybe looking back to how the business was in the early days and how good that was, I don't think it's sustainable in the long run as you add more and more people. Like they've grown three times the size now and and having massive overlap in terms of accountabilities.
00:07:59
Speaker
um And yeah, that's where the problems starting to come in, in my opinion. Fab. Yeah, I agree. Sean, where did, what was the thing, the the part of the confession that most sort of piqued your interest where your ears prick up?
00:08:12
Speaker
Well, my ears, my ears pricked up when, when she mentioned there's a customer success manager, a customer success manager and a support manager that booked the same meeting after.
00:08:23
Speaker
my ears pricked up then because that would be me. So that's something that we don't have right now. two Two people doing the same thing. um I think, I think it was ah sort of mainly around creativity and stifling creativity.
00:08:40
Speaker
um which I think obviously when you're a small business and where where we are right now, that's something that you worry about. um But the larger you get and the more people you get, you need that sort of structure in place. And obviously Steve touched on it there, the accountability.
00:08:56
Speaker
The accountability in place, which allows other people to to sort of know what's going on the business, know who has the accountability of that area in the business. And then that almost allows creativity to thrive if you do it in the right way.
00:09:08
Speaker
That's interesting. So this, this, this perhaps false dichotomy between structure versus creativity. Yeah. We could get into that. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Love it. Joe, what about you? What, what, what from Sophie's confession most spoke to you or kind of got you thinking?
00:09:24
Speaker
I think that she's worried about people being demotivated by putting in some structure and some process. um And I'd say that I would imagine they're pretty demotivated now working in something that probably feels fairly chaotic and that nobody knows exactly.
00:09:41
Speaker
who's doing what and who's yeah who's accountability, who's responsibility it is. And potentially by not having you know a clear North Star in terms of this is where we're all heading and here is how we're going to get to it.
00:09:55
Speaker
um So I'd say that I think it could be, you flip that, it could be super, super motivating. You've only got 18 people in business. So, you know, working with those 18 people to really look at this is where we are now and who is who is accountable for what, who is responsible would feel quite motivating to be a part of.
00:10:15
Speaker
I don't think it's something that Sophie should tackle on her own and necessarily pass down. I think it's something she should work with the team on to make sure she keeps that motivation.
00:10:28
Speaker
Interesting. Okay. so we've got three discrete, but related points there. That's awesome. Is it worth us diving in again, just to give listeners more context before we drill down into some of these themes and and others talking about the journey that, that Carrero's
Role Transition and Integrator Role
00:10:41
Speaker
been on. i don't know you want to allude to what you did together previously, but I think, I mean, I love being around you three, um, love working with you as well.
00:10:50
Speaker
You know, you're always like super, like overly modest, um, but I think people will appreciate your, and and Joe, you do it. You're like minor LinkedIn celebrity now. So, i mean, if people want to follow you, I'll put your, I'll put your links in the show notes. And so people, I mean, joking aside, like you've been really candid about,
00:11:07
Speaker
you know, the journey that you guys are ah going on both the work you do for clients and otherwise, is it worth talking to people about where Carrera kind of came from and the journey you've been on over the last last year or two, so that then as we get into talking more about Sophie, people understand that it really is speaking from experience, not just from the advice you give third parties, but from walking the walk yourselves?
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, we we all worked together in a business before And in that business, my role was MD. um And very quickly, as we came into this business and we we started working with you, Rob, and we looked at what each of our roles were and what we were good at, and we started using the EOS framework.
00:11:52
Speaker
it became very, very clear that the MD slash integrator role was not one that I was suited to. And actually, I'd probably been doing ah job that I wasn't great at for a really long time. And therefore, because I'm what they call a visionary, I'm quite chaotic in my thinking, I go after what is called shiny things the whole time. and And actually, we really need somebody in our business who's going to to look after the business and make sure that we're doing all the things that we should be doing to run a small business and that we're keeping on a, on the straight and narrow, if you like. And so for me, i think the thing that changed the most is that we're all very, very clear on what our roles are in the business.
00:12:35
Speaker
um You know, I'm sure the boys will talk about theirs in a minute, but you know, as a visionary, I, I know exactly what it is that I need to do for this business.
00:12:46
Speaker
And that's, really, really important. um And I'm good at it. And I want to do it. um I get it. I want it. I have the capacity, as they say. Love it. um Where do where do Joe, why don't you decide where to hand that off next? Which one of the boys are you going to throw under the bus to talk to them, talk about themselves, which they love?
00:13:04
Speaker
Well, then, then Steve, or Steve then put his hand up, if you like, when we were in a room and we did our first day with you, Steve put his hand up and said, actually, i could do this when it, when we talked about the integrator role. And I think that most people most well the people in the room at that time was only three of us had assumed that naturally that would be my role that we would have the visionary and the integrator as sort of one one thing um but steve put his hand up and said i'd quite like to do that and i think all of us just went oh yes that makes sense now um and yeah so i'm going to go over to steve i mean yeah it was um
00:13:44
Speaker
was that about 16, 18 months ago now, I think something like that. And then yeah, um I'm a developer. So this was sort of a new thing for me to get into. But I think yeah the more I do it, the more I realize it plays to some of my strengths. um and And yeah, I think it has changed. I think it certainly kind of made you feel more free, Joe, isn't it?
00:14:04
Speaker
In terms of being able to do what you want to be doing on a daily basis and the things you're better at. and And yeah, I think Yeah, it's certainly given me more comfort that and the business can be run in the right way, especially when using EOS alongside it, having the ah level 10s and the meeting polls and just having some metrics to follow ah just gives you real comfort that the business is in a good place.
00:14:29
Speaker
and and um And yeah, just playing to people's strengths. I think that discussion we had back at the start where we decided who would have which sort of leadership seat in the business and was so key in what we did.
00:14:42
Speaker
from the start and I think everyone's now comfortable in the business. And think looking back, it was probably, I can imagine in Sophie's position, that sort of discussion being quite difficult one potentially, depending on the personalities that you have in the business.
00:14:56
Speaker
and But getting the right people in those right seats is absolutely key. You have one or two sort of awkward conversations potentially around that. But then from there, you got the right people in the right seats. It just makes things a lot easier for the foreseeable future.
00:15:12
Speaker
Steve, how do you describe your role? So we use integrator, which is a term that like comes from the entrepreneurial operating system. But like if you just use like ah like a job title, you know, you're at a conference and you're describing what you what you do, like how how would you how would you describe that so that folks can kind of picture the role that Joe and Sean are clearly like enthusiastic for you to perform?
00:15:31
Speaker
It is difficult. I'd say like probably most closely aligned to MD right now, but Also, that's not the only thing I do. and It's a big part of my role that I spend, say, about half my time in the code developing to.
00:15:46
Speaker
and So i think this is one of the key thoughts I had about Sophie's situation in that it's not about hierarchy. It's about accountabilities. So you can have multiple roles within a business.
00:15:58
Speaker
um So you don't need to be worried about bringing in hierarchy. It doesn't have to be hierarchy along with accountability. and Accountability can come. without too much change to hierarchy, if that makes sense.
00:16:10
Speaker
And do you see your role as primarily holding yourself and others accountable for yeah being fulfilled? Effectively, yeah. The other leaders in the business, yes. So, Sean, you're a co-founder of this business sandwiched between these two lunatics. Talk to us about what that feels like.
00:16:26
Speaker
It was great. and or know is's quite It's quite interesting because obviously we aren't, I think we'll all agree that we're not we're not sort through this process. we're not this isn't This isn't something that we are absolutely we do absolutely incredible.
00:16:42
Speaker
um But Joe is a perfect example, I think, of something where we we started this in a certain way. um And Joe was sort coming into it as MD, like she was in the in the previous business.
00:16:54
Speaker
And then we had those conversations and we had those discussions and there was this sort of sudden realization that Steve has these skills and and maybe the skills that maybe Joe is sort of lacking there.
00:17:05
Speaker
and But Joe has these other skills and we sort of moved stuff around. And I think that's worked really, really well for us. um But from from sort of my perspective, I think there is still stuff that we we are working on.
00:17:19
Speaker
um So I currently sort of sort look after customer success. um And in terms of sort of the accountabilities, um i have I have product under my accountability as well.
00:17:32
Speaker
ah Steve almost takes on more of that. so I think we're sort of still working out where my accountabilities will lie going forward. um and that's And that's sort of something that I'm confident that we'll get through, but we're we're we're still working towards that.
00:17:47
Speaker
um and And having Steve as the as the integrator has helped, I think, with that accountability and stuff. Sean, you're quite, like I mean, I think of you as a, as a, like a creative guy. I think you've, you've said you perhaps, you know, if you had to, it's a false, false dichotomy to say we're either visionary or integrator in temperament, but you definitely have sort of confessed to some, some visionary type characteristics in, in the past.
00:18:10
Speaker
Have you found like being open and honest? Cause there's no right or wrong answer. Have you found any element of agreeing with, structured, discrete accountabilities as between you and your co-founders, between you, Joe, and Steve stifling?
Accountability and Focus in Teams
00:18:24
Speaker
like Or has it been worth the trade-offs? like How do you think about that kind of dichotomy you teed up for Sophie?
00:18:31
Speaker
Absolutely not, to be honest. um the The first thing you have to do to agree the accountability is have a conversation. um And that in itself opens up so many doors that I don't think people realise.
00:18:43
Speaker
We went through the process almost assuming who would have which roles and which me accountabilities they would have. um The first thing you have to do when you start to to to prescript those accountabilities are have the conversations.
00:18:59
Speaker
and um and And we found out that Joe had these sort skills that that would be would be suited to this area of the business and Steve had these skills. And then I enjoyed this part of my business ah the business so I could do this.
00:19:11
Speaker
And that in itself already of allows people to focus on the areas of the business that they they want to. And as soon as you have that conversation, it opens up so many doors, I think. I think that's what we've found.
00:19:23
Speaker
um And the other thing as well is just EOS in general, um that sort of structure that you have, there's some things that you don't want to be thinking about um and you don't want to have them in the back of your mind. And having that structure there just means that you have the freedom for elsewhere in the business to sort of go get creative and sort of, yeah, spread your wings, so to speak.
00:19:48
Speaker
But yeah, so I found that, yeah, really, really sort of liberating. I can see Joe gently nodding. Joe, has getting clear on the accountabilities that you that you own and and that that you're handed off to these guys been stifling in any way? like I mean, let let's almost play devil's advocate. like where where do Where have you found yourself getting frustrated at being held accountable to stuff?
00:20:12
Speaker
um I think because we're such a small business, we've ended up sitting, if you like, and again, it's another EOS term. It's true. It is a cult-like thing that we operate, isn't it? We've all ended up having more than one set of accountabilities or sitting in more than one seat.
00:20:29
Speaker
And I think that's really hard for all of us. And I'm super lucky that I shout the loudest and i've We've just employed somebody in the business actually to help us with business development because I was looking, I was both being the visionary part of the part of the business, but I was also looking after sales and marketing as well. And i When we started this process, I would sit in a room and I would say, I will do anything for this business. And then as we went through that and we sort of took on these accountabilities, actually, i won't do anything for this business and I couldn't do everything for this business. I would only i would only want to do the things that I want to do.
00:21:07
Speaker
And I think that realisation and then sort of saying, well, that's a big issue for us because, you know, Joe, it's all very well. You're doing podcasts and posting on LinkedIn. But if you're not having meetings and getting new clients, then we won't have a business.
00:21:20
Speaker
And so we quickly recognised that we needed to bring somebody in to take on the business development or the go-to-market seat. um So I think that in that respect,
00:21:32
Speaker
You know, it was frustrating doing more than one seat. Sean's doing more than one seat at the moment. He's supposed to be looking after product. And that falls by the wayside in terms of customer success.
00:21:43
Speaker
um Steve is the integrator and also developer and also fd and, and, and. So, you know, I think it's about recognising that they are issues and then working out which one is the biggest issue and dealing with it.
00:22:00
Speaker
um So, yeah, my frustration was doing more than one seat for a while, but I've just given up a seat two weeks ago. So I'm very happy. as joe's a good That's my i that that's a great jump jumping off point. so um Sophie, like first point there.
00:22:16
Speaker
Be clear. Be clear on what you want to do, what you want others to do. Don't shy away from having those potentially uncomfortable conversations. If you believe Team Carrero, actually the clarity will set you free and actually create a foundation for fostering that creativity that you that you care so much about, which is a noble intent. And, you know, Jay...
00:22:37
Speaker
didn't sugarcoat for you in that you're probably demotivating people already. So that's the first point, lean into the structure. Joe, the second point you tease up there is interesting in that once you've got structure and people are taking accountabilities, that's going to lead to a subsequent set of difficult conversations, right? Because there are clearly things going wrong in Sophie's business that she's aware of.
00:22:56
Speaker
I mean, Steve, maybe that's the point to hand over to you. We can talk about your wonderful new... commercial person that's that's come in. But before we do that, like, what was it like trying to hold Joe accountable to aspects of the business that she'd, you know, put a, put a name against and, you know, don't worry, she's smiling and she's already said that it turned out there were things she didn't want to do in practice. well What was it like trying to hold her to that? Cause then it sounds like Sophie wants to be liked reading between the lines.
00:23:21
Speaker
So talk to a leader to leader about what it's like holding your friends and colleagues accountable for stuff that maybe they shouldn't be doing. mean, that that was really difficult because we have worked together for such a long time. I'm really close to Joe, i really like Joe.
00:23:33
Speaker
and but it's um And I feel like i could be quite pushy on that um if I needed to. But it's very hard when the person who's doing it, you know they don't really want to be doing it, if that makes sense. So how can you hold somebody truly accountable and really push them really hard when you like them and you know they don't want to do it?
00:23:51
Speaker
and So that was really difficult. We knew the business had to do these things to survive and and Joe for free. And we tried to assist Joe as much as possible. But yeah in the end, it become clearer and clearer. We just needed somebody else to be doing that stuff.
00:24:03
Speaker
And as you reflect back on your performance as a leader manager, Steve, like would you what whats so what did you do like practically to to try and... hold the team accountable? Like, was it like, were you like you were you like, did you jump up and down? Did you shout? Did you call it out? Were you a bit kind of conflict avoidant and passive?
00:24:22
Speaker
um Which is my my natural mode, by the way, just to, for my own confession, just I think people find that useful to picture what you did. Yeah, I think um ah we we have the level tens and we have our scorecard metrics we have to look at. So we can, ah not that i'd want to anyway, but like avoid discussions around things that were failing.
00:24:41
Speaker
Like, so if there's parts of Joe's job which weren't going to plan, we'd see that in the scorecard every week. um And i would I am, I guess, quite a soft leader. So I would be like, I'd be pointing out, be saying, right, we need to discuss that.
00:24:54
Speaker
What do we do about it? Try and support Joe. and but ultimately, I felt like that was kind of the limit as to what we could do when we've got somebody in the seat that doesn't want to do it, isn't enjoying it. I don't want to force Joe out of the business by pushing too hard.
00:25:07
Speaker
So it became more of a, how can I support Joe? What can we look to plan the months ahead so we can get out of this situation and and change the situation so we don't have to keep kind of trying to bat Joe into doing something she doesn't really want to be doing.
00:25:21
Speaker
Joe, Sean, interested. So imagine that Sophie's in this situation. Is there a kind of, is there a similar point, Joe, for the point you've, the advice you've already given Sophie around not demotivate, like she's probably already demotivating her team with lack of structure,
00:25:36
Speaker
Do you suspect she's possibly doing the same thing in trying to hold people accountable for like not missing releases or not duplicating meetings and and and things? Is there any, do you have any advice or lived experience around how to hold colleagues or equals found co-founders accountable?
00:25:52
Speaker
I think if you care about the business you're in you don't, I mean, people in general don't like to fail, do they? So yes, although I didn't like doing it, I was still going for it the best I could because I didn't want to let my colleagues down, you know, and and it you know it becomes an issue on our issues list and we have to work through it and get past it, whatever it looks like. And Steve just then I don't think the right word for Steve's leadership style is soft.
00:26:21
Speaker
I think Steve is very reflective um and he will always go away and think about stuff and he will always come back with a solution and you know, when you listen to our meetings, I probably take up the most amount of airtime. But when Sean or Steve do say something, it's really worth listening to. And so I totally respect Steve coming at stuff from a different direction. And if he hadn't have led the way that he led, we probably wouldn't have got to the place we got to as quickly as we did, because he was very clear about this is an issue. And I could have sat there and bullshitted my way around it for months, you know, because that's, I can do that. I could sit there and be like,
00:26:59
Speaker
oh, but it's this, oh, but it's that, but you know make excuses. And Steve was like, we're not we're not hitting these numbers we need to hit and therefore we need to do something about it. And at first I was quite resistant to bringing somebody into the business. I'm not great for change.
00:27:14
Speaker
um i The thought of inducting somebody into a business of people that have all worked with each other with each other for 10 years plus was out of my comfort zone. and i was a bit stroppy about it.
00:27:26
Speaker
And Steve was, Steve gave me the freedom we talked about. We talked to over and over again, probably bored these two guys. you know, why aren't I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? It's because...
00:27:37
Speaker
I didn't want to and i I didn't feel okay about it. And Steve was great at getting him into a position to feel okay about it, as were Sean and you, Rob, as well, when we talked about it. So I think there's really something in Sophie being very open and honest about how she's feeling and talking to people about it and helping to support them through whatever change journey needs to take place within her business.
Defining Customer Journey and Reducing Redundancy
00:28:00
Speaker
um But, you know, there is a there is a big thing about are you on the bus or are you off it? And this is what we need from you as a business. And like children, i do think people need clear boundaries and to have clear expectations set of what their role is.
00:28:15
Speaker
I'm sure both of those people that did that follow up call are doing it in the best interest of the business. They're not meaning to do that. They're not going to be intentionally divisive or ruin something.
00:28:26
Speaker
They're just both doing something they feel like is their job. So if you say to both those people, right, tell us what they what the path is for the customer journey, you two go and work it out who's doing what, brilliant. Then they know, she knows, everybody knows what's supposed to be happening.
00:28:45
Speaker
Love it. Sean, you've got product and customer remit. Now you've talked about Carrero's own journey about unblocking kind of go to market because of maybe some of Joe's squeamishness, um which is pretty normal with visionary type type folks. You know, there's a like, there's a hardness, isn't there, to like your classic kind of sales and marketing type person.
00:29:03
Speaker
With that bottleneck now likely removed with Phil joining the business, it like, presumably we're going to start growing and pressure is going to come on to come on to customer i just wonder if you want to talk like help sophie think through um optimizing scaling product and customer functions because i think joe you alluded it there to like not wanting to bring in newbies and i know sean like loves the idea of ai doing everything but yeah sean just love it if you just
00:29:32
Speaker
Just confess and riff for Sophie's benefit on scaling the product and customer function if if sales starts firing. Well, we we actually have these conversations pretty regularly, don't we, in our level 10s at the moment? Because obviously, yeah like you said, we've we've just hired a go-to-market, some of the business development.
00:29:50
Speaker
and So ideally, or what what should be happening is that we're getting some more sales. um to more clients. And obviously that's going to yeah put some pressure onto an already pressured area of the business.
00:30:02
Speaker
So it's something that we are talking about quite a lot at the moment. um but Fundamentally from from living it myself, um the most important thing is is clarity um and and being clear around what those roles are. So even though I'm doing right now, I'm doing i'm doing say two roles or or i'm I've sort of got the accountability for two roles.
00:30:27
Speaker
They are completely separate roles within the business. So we know we've we've we've done our accountability charts and we've we've gone through each area of that business and we know that they are um that there's two jobs there, basically, at least.
00:30:40
Speaker
um And it's very, very clear. So what we haven't done is just been like, Sean's doing all of this um and and just do it without being clear around which roles they are. um So firstly, that makes it quite easy going forward for us to look at which areas of the business um we we need help in. um So there are, i do sort of a lot of one area of the business and it's,
00:31:05
Speaker
taking off my time from the other area of the business, which is quite clear. So we can quite clearly see that actually, if we wanted to get someone else in and grow the business, we need someone that's going to help in these specific areas.
00:31:17
Speaker
So my the biggest advice I can have just from somebody that lived it is just having that clarity um around what is needed and and and when and not being muddled up.
00:31:30
Speaker
Have there ever been times where you're just committing to do too much. I mean, start with Sean, but just interested in others' perspective on that. Because I know you work for some very high-end brands. You've got some very famous customers who have, you know, they have demanding customers in their own right. So that pervades their culture.
00:31:48
Speaker
You know, um a lot of the time they pick you because they like you and they know you go the extra mile. So i just wonder, is there,
Managing Expectations with Limited Resources
00:31:55
Speaker
in addition to kind of that clarity as to the structure as between you and what you're responsible for,
00:32:00
Speaker
Can you just talk to the clarity around the service proposition and what you do and don't do? yeah yeah. So that's that's obviously, that's another area of the business where we, ah Joe touched on it, but we we um we worked together before previously in previous business um and we had some of the same clients and the same sort of system and same software, but there were more, ah we had more employees basically.
00:32:23
Speaker
um So sort of struggle that we've found, I think, is moving from having say 15 employees down to four employees and then five um and and trying to keep that level of service the same.
00:32:37
Speaker
um So that's something that we've we've sort just struggled with a little bit, um but we're working on and it's it's all to do with, yet like you said, being being clear with the with the customer exactly what they're going to get and not over promising.
00:32:51
Speaker
um And that's taken a little bit of time for us to get to, I think, where we've sort of promised this stuff in the past and now suddenly we can't deliver on that. um So we need to be really, really clear about clients um yeah going forward.
00:33:06
Speaker
Joe, you got any any kind of thoughts to add on that? I mean, it's not directly in Sophie's letter, but happens a lot. Definitely affected me in my my company. I mean, my business, Yapster, was a product business, but I'm a lawyer by background. I come from the service professions.
00:33:21
Speaker
My instinct is always to like do more, like offer more. um Just really, would really, really appreciate your further thoughts on that, even if it's not something that Sophie's necessarily suffering, but I bet it is.
00:33:33
Speaker
I think that one of our at the moment where the business stands it's one of our it's one of our usps that we get very involved with our clients and their businesses and understand what good looks like now we're slowly moving away from that to give them more ability to do stuff on the system themselves but we're still quite high touch um so we're still you know it can almost you know a a a product and a service and not just a product so you know finding that balance can be quite difficult sometimes um also our values are care credibility and positivity which all you know all swing towards of course we're going to do whatever you need us to do to you know be great at what we do so i think it's just again about establishing you know clear expectations about what we will and won't offer to people and it's a work in progress.
00:34:31
Speaker
You know, i think we've been going as Carrero for two years now. I'd describe the The first year is being completely chaotic and us getting our internal processes in place. And then the second year being much more about consolidation. So making sure that all our existing clients were getting what they needed.
00:34:52
Speaker
And then this year we're going into hopefully what will be a growth period. So, you know, there will be challenges that come with that. And, you know, the biggest pressure at the moment is now on the customer success side of stuff um and also on the product. you know We can't fail to mention the you know the twist of AI in the last 18 months or so and how that's affecting software as a service.
00:35:17
Speaker
And actually, we think we can use it to our advantage. And so in some respects, we're in a really good place because we haven't got a load of developers, we can pivot, we can turn things around quite quickly. It's almost giving Sean and Steve the breathing space to be able to do that. And you know sometimes my my my challenge to them would be, you know if you haven't got time to do something that's quite important to the business, my challenge would be, what would happen if you're on holiday?
00:35:45
Speaker
What would happen if you were ill for three days? What would happen? We'd we'd be okay. So sometimes you just need to switch off from the day to day. and get into some of the bigger picture stuff. And actually, yeah, they you've got a plan around that, haven't you, Steve? So, you know, we're we're doing all right, but we're not there. i think Sean said earlier, you know, and very happy to give Sophie advice, but it's always chaotic in the startup, which I think is why for us the EOS process is,
00:36:14
Speaker
just invaluable like we wouldn't be where we are today if we just didn't have a really clear way of running our business you know we all believe in that and it's hard for a visionary to get your head around that as you know um what do we call it eos theater when people say to me oh yeah i do eos and then i start talking to him and i'm like no you don't
00:36:36
Speaker
It's that's such a nice, I'm constantly hitting up on half hours. Steve, it'd be lovely for you to have the final word. Now, Joe has been classy and humble and like, you know, deferring to the process and releasing, you know, delegating and elevating to let go of things that perhaps was not in a wheelhouse.
00:36:53
Speaker
But I think we should finish by shouting her out. Can you, um can you talk about when and where it's appropriate for that person in that visionary seat So basically pull the stop cord on the train and say to those of you that are more operationally oriented, no, we have to do this impossible thing or this thing that currently feels impossible. We just have to do it because that's what honors the customer promise. You know, like in what Jo just said there, she's like, look, our clients buy us rather than some.
00:37:23
Speaker
massive American monstrosity because i actually care about like a ah sort of person-centered service. um I think that would be really helpful because, you know, a lot of what we talked about for Sophie has been about structure, stre structure on roles, structure on what the limitations of our service are.
00:37:39
Speaker
But as a good founder, every now and again, she's going to need to like fight for the exception. So as the guy that's in charge of like keeping Jo sensible nine times out of 10. Can you just talk about that like on that 10th occasion where she needs to pull rank and make us do the unexpected?
Visionary Impact and AI Implementation
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we've we've had a good um good ah example recently, actually. So it's difficult trying to sort of balance. We have different brains, I think, myself and Jo. And yeah, Jo brings these ideas. And I'm very respectful of that. But also, I'm the one and alongside others. is But we have to make that happen.
00:38:12
Speaker
and But and not every idea is obviously going to be a good idea. And we have our differences. And I think we have a good relationship so we can talk about these. And and so if I don't think it's a great idea or if there's some limitation for some reason, we can have a good conversation about it.
00:38:26
Speaker
and But eventually, you well, every now and then, you know, there's a good idea coming through and you're like, I want to do something about that. But re-resource constraint and it's is tricky. And I think, yeah, we had an example recently where Joe was talking about AI and We set up this Slack channel about AI inspiration and we were getting peppered one morning.
00:38:44
Speaker
i think before nine o'clock we were getting peppered and ah. And like, cause I'm happy to get this stuff. I'm happy to see i I'm very yeah keen to help grow the business and it's a big passion of mine. but term But yeah, when you can't do the things that the visionary wants to do, it's very frustrating. You you want to do it, but you can't and you've got 10 other things you know you need to be doing.
00:39:05
Speaker
and But yeah, now I've just got to point where was like, know we need to do this. I haven't got the time to do it. um And I think, and yeah, towards the end of one day, was just like, you know what, it's going to be easier for me in the long run if I just sort of show that this can be done.
00:39:19
Speaker
And I think I got it done in like four or five hours. and We've added some AI to our product, which does something which we think is is going to be pretty good. and But that persistence of Joe going on about it, even though it might have been frustrating momentarily, did in got done.
00:39:35
Speaker
And like we're fine. We've got a good relationship. In other businesses, it might not be might' work out quite so well. But for us, that works fine. And I actually appreciate Joe kind of bringing that to the business that makes sense.
00:39:46
Speaker
ah yeah It was me. I was basically going and chatting to chat. What do I call it? GPT, whatever it is. And I was like, if we want to do this with the software, how how much would it cost? What about if we outsourced it to India? What would it mean?
00:40:04
Speaker
Here's a brief spec. Make a spec for me and then just sending it to them on Slack going, but here's a spec. I can get it done in India for five grand. I don't know what you're all talking about. And like you can almost feel Steve's being triggered down everything just went quiet and then later that day he's like so I've just built something was like Sean how did you feel about this uh well that it's a really difficult one because there's actually it's quite often I I feel like I'm stuck in between Steve and Joe think you mentioned that earlier but
00:40:37
Speaker
Joe is very much like Joe was, it was a, yeah, sort of, like you said, sort of sending me specs and stuff that ChatGPT had written for you. And I was just like, this isn't, this is nothing. Like, it just, there's a lot of complicated words that doesn't mean anything.
00:40:51
Speaker
and ah But then I also, Steve, obviously sometimes as well, you have that trying to keep everything in order. And there's that middle ground where I think maybe I would like to be a little bit more Visionary, I would like to be a little quicker on certain things, um but Steve does the right thing and pulls everyone back.
00:41:08
Speaker
um In this one, i was very I was very happy, but I did mention to Steve afterwards that you just opened a can of worms by doing that. So you need to be careful going forward. Guys, thank you so much. Thank you for being so generous for your time. So Sophie, in summary,
00:41:24
Speaker
have the courage to structure your organization from a people perspective, get the seats right and the roles right, then be confident to structure your proposition, be clear on what you should and shouldn't be doing so you can then honor those customer and those colleague promises.
00:41:39
Speaker
And then finally, if you've got a good team, you've got the right people around you, we don't know whether you're more visionary and or integrator. It sounds like you might be a bit more visionary type, but get good operating colleagues around you so that you can then set yourself free to let that visionary freak flag fly on those occasions where like only you know the thing that the market needs that perhaps a more operationally rigorous colleague wouldn't wouldn't you know wouldn't be inspired to fight for is that a fair summary of like the three main points that have come out of this conversation gang yeah i think so yeah definitely is that what we said what we said
00:42:16
Speaker
know Joe's going to ask ChatGPT to summarize afterwards. I'm going to put each of your LinkedIn's in in the show notes and assume you're happy for whether it's entrepreneurs or corporates interested in talent management, you're happy for folks to write reach out to any of you, I assume.
00:42:30
Speaker
Of course. Yes. Brilliant. Thank you so much, guys. Thanks, Rob.