Transcript
Speaker: You go to the bank, I want to buy this, they say no. Okay, you tear it down. Here's a piece of land. Can I buy this and give me a loan for anyone? Yes, yes, yes, yes. yes here you They'll show money at you. ah So the biggest obstacle to the renovation markets to keep old houses are basically the banks.
Speaker: Welcome to the Buying a House in Japan podcast. My name is Take, joined by my co -host Joey. Today we have a super special guest, Koon. He's a partner at Front Office and we were introduced to you. Who introduced you to us actually? How do we get connected? I got an email address from somebody on Reddit. Someone on Reddit had been mentioning that Front Office had done some work for him. They were fantastic and English speaking. So I sent a cold email. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, Koon, do you mind giving us a quick intro on yourself and what you do?
Speaker: Yes. So I'm actually very happy to hear. Thank you for inviting me first. And also I'm happy to hear that I'm mentioned on Reddit. That's like famous. Wow. And we didn't have so many clients in the past 10, 15 years that we've run in front office. So I'll go through my list and see who I can find on Reddit. Anyways, my name is Kun Klinkers. I've been in Japan about 20, 25 years. I'm an architect, a background on Dutch. I got my license in the Netherlands.
Speaker: find myself on a scholarship to Japan supposedly for two years but guess what here I am 25 years later it's a great place to be. I ran a real estate fund at one point bought properties and sold off the properties out of that we got a private client who outside bought but then of course had bought a piece of land I needed an architect And so I raised my hand and said, hey, I'm an architect as well. And hey, I've got the job. So that little house was built in 2008. And welcome to Tokyo real estate. It was torn down in 2022. So part of the cycle of the amazing Tokyo real estate metabolism, if you want to call it, this city is alive. And the better parts of town that building lasted 14 years. I think on average is 25 to 30 years. okay So we're a bit short on the cycle. But anyway, that's, I was always very happy that people were tearing down buildings because hey, it gives a chance for me as an architect to build. and I mean, from both of us, I have a partner, of Bill, that we did this job together.
Speaker: But we always get excited when they tear down buildings because, hey, we can build. And then one day they tear down your own building and you're like, no, existential ah thoughts come up. Why did I do this? But yeah, it's great to be here and it's great to build. Was that just kind of the natural cycle that buildings in Japan after 21 years, they can't be depreciated anymore. So people just naturally decide to tear them down or. or No, I think it's a bit more complicated. So if you go to the countryside, I think then actually people build a house and then they live there until they die. So I think it all comes together with pensions. They're not that great pensions here. So people try to get their own house that they own. But once they retire, they've paid off the mortgage and then they live there.
Speaker: I think that's for the majority in Japan. I think it's the extreme real estate pressure in ah in ah in a city like Tokyo and constantly people moving in. So if Japan is suffering from a decline in population. In general, the population is declining and cities are declining. Tokyo is the only city or one of the few cities with with a surplus of people moving in. And then people want to live in good neighborhoods. So this little house particular of was Yoyogi.
Speaker: um We built it for an older couple, so it was only 80 square meters, whereas on site you could build about 140 square meters. The next person who bought it goes like, this house is too small for this lot, boom, right? And so you see other buildings as well, older office buildings where the f FAR or plot area has been raised in certain neighborhoods. It doesn't happen often, but it's politically convenient sometimes to raise the FARs. That means tons of buildings are suddenly on little lots or large lots undervalued basically because the building is smaller than what you can actually build and those buildings are very prone to get redeveloped. So it's more like real estate pressure because on average I think people once they've built it, bought it, paid off the mortgage, they will live there 40 -50 years.
Speaker: a Curious, does your Dutch architecture degree transfer over? or like How did that certification happen? we know so No, it doesn't. Long story short, I once tried. I can go to the Ministry. I have a Dutch license. They will give me an exemption of one part of the exam to become a certified Japanese architect.
Speaker: I was very cocky when I was younger and I applied, but you needed 10 years of working experience, but I included my working experience when I was a student. So that didn't count. And then I would have to come back in two years. I never did that. The Japanese system is very strict and then it is very gray at the same time. It's a very nice way in Japan. So once we do renovations, we do not need a license. Once we do new construction, we basically team up with an architect friend and then you do a joint design.
Speaker: that they sign off. Okay, interesting. I'm curious, you know, generally, what kind of projects do you work on? I've seen your portfolio, you guys have done some really cool stuff. Sounds like central Tokyo, kind of more like high -end design, is that right? Correct, so we had ah we had a nice run with a few high -end clients, so they bought a big pot of land and then we were able to design their private house.
Speaker: The bread and butter has more like been renovations. So that's either for residential or for then for offices. We've done a few offices. I actually had Microsoft as one of my clients. So that's oh it was nice to to have those people, which was a data center and just an interior, but it won't show up on my website. That's cool though. Data center for Microsoft. <unk> all right The office part. We didn't go to racks. That was easy. Microsoft himself. Here we go.
Speaker: So no, it's mostly like, yeah, word of mouth. People recommend us, friends introduce us, and then that's how we get the jobs. Got it. Will you guys ever take jobs? And like, let's say Mark Zuckerberg knocks on our doors like, I want a place in Okayama. You know, is there a certain geo you guys are willing to go to? ah I mean, it's Mark Zuckerberg. So you probably know them. The fees are very high. So then yeah, I'll i'll go i'll go anywhere. I do know, for instance, I just recently saw What's the CEO of Oracle, Ralph Allison? I think his house is up for sale. like I know that Bill Gates has a house in Karuzawa. So apparently all these highpe high paid CEOs from US companies all seem to have houses in Japan. So maybe that's the market for you guys.
Speaker: oh yeah so ah then But I'm not sure if they're into Akiyas. It looks very nice, the role of Allison's house. So yeah, no, of course. We recently, last year, completed a project. It's up on our website. This was in Ibaraki, which is north of Narita Airport. So for me, it's the one and a half hours drive to get there.
Speaker: uh which is then doable it was a referral again a friend and his father -in -law they were rebuilding the farmhouse so we ripped the farmhouse apart and i walked in once the the interior was out and oh thank you for taking out the installation i tell to the contractor and he looks at me and goes what installation basically when once you strip a wooden house and this was a 50 year old wooden house to its basics it's basically a wooden shed our task was to make this building appropriate for the next 20 years and giving it something of an energy label so we put in the insulation flooring walls ceiling and and it turned out really nice but
Speaker: Like with any project, you have to manage it. You can do as much online. Contractors are getting better. Maybe just send you images. Just have a quick chat, video chat. But it's always good to go there and see what they're doing or how they're doing it or how they're solving it. So we're always there with a pencil, kind of this corner, try this, this corner, and do it like this. Now, we care because we're architects and we made the plan and had a certain vision. If you're renovating an RKI and it's just, OK, guys, give me wallpaper.
Speaker: than anybody can do it. That's the extent to how far you want to renovate. Again, with Akiyas, Japanese buildings, bathrooms, yeah, easiest to go is a unit bathroom. So pick it from the catalog. Next month, there's a perfect bathroom. You know, you don't have to worry. but co A question we get a lot when people are asking about renovation is what kind of permits do I need to do?
Speaker: Correct. So I would say be careful if you're in a so -called mansion, like a residential building, then people will care. Contractors as well, like older mansion buildings have beautifully tiled bathrooms, and sometimes if it's the 80s, you know, the bubble area that's granite all over the place, I've ripped out a few of those. And the contractor will always go, well, now we'll pick the unit bath. And you go, no, no, no, and no, no, this is a high -end mansion. but We're going to put tiles back. So please do waterproofing. So cement, waterproofing. do And they're going to get a bit.
Speaker: iffy because um once you put in a unit bath, they give you a guarantee, there's no leaks, right? Or the leaks, you go total and they will send somebody to check it. If you do a unit, and and if you don't do unit bath, the tiling and the waterproofing could go wrong. So this is where contractors get a bit worried. So, but again, that's that's higher on mansions. And again, you're in Akia, so more like freestanding houses. It's a freestanding house, it's your own land, go for it. Now,
Speaker: the thing The two things that matter in Japan is earthquake safety and fire safety. So don't rip out too many walls. Make sure that you have something left of and of an earthquake resistance in your building. And secondly is fire safety. But again, fire safety is just a quick rule. If you're five meters from your neighbor, you can build a wooden house. So Lots in Tokyo are so small if you do five meters, basically it overlaps from the boundary line. So yes, your house has to be fully fireproof and Tokyo City wants, preferably concrete houses because they're most fire safe. Now you're in the countryside, sometimes you'll be in a big lot so build whatever you want. If you're with closer to neighbors.
Speaker: When you do your outside facades, make sure that's non -burnable. You see the glass with the wires? That's not for earthquakes. That's for fire safety. If your house, neighboring house burns, your windows have a 30 or 60 minute fire safety rating so the glass doesn't break. That means the flames can't get in. Your facade has a one hour fire rating because it's mortar, right? So once you keep those things in mind, you don't need to get permits because the house has a permit. But once you start rebuilding,
Speaker: Just be smart. with yeah yeah we We did the exact opposite. We went in and we tore down a wall and we're like, is this structural? And we just took it down. across We opened up this wall and there's the cross bracing. I'm like, we'll get rid of this garbage and started like shaking. it No, I would recommend not to do that. so so you like Yeah. So yeah, these old little houses, they again, earthquake safety is also a balance between how much material do I need to put and how much cost, right? You want the house to be 100 % earthquake proof. You just use huge massive columns and you know build solid walls, basically build concrete, right? So then you get these wooden houses. They're built in the most economical way, which is then thin columns.
Speaker: right, because that saves costs, transportation costs, whatever, and then as much braces as possible just to give it the earthquake safety. Now, in the old wooden farmhouses, it was mostly the outer walls, and then there's columns to keep up the roof. The younger houses, let's say 30, you know, 20, 30, 40 years, it's built the most economical way. That's why the windows get smaller, because where a window sits, that part of the wall doesn't count for the earthquake safety.
Speaker: And that's in new houses, windows get smaller and smaller because they get cheaper and cheaper. So the cross -brace you saw is basically in that direction that the cross -brace sits for the a earthquake safety. About the small windows, I've definitely seen new builds where it's like a lot of wall, it seems like, and then small windows. and just so So it's two things, the contractor and everybody else, say oh, it's cultural, Japanese people do not want to look outside.
Speaker: Come on, everybody likes anybody. No way. But it's true, you know, lots in Tokyo get smaller and smaller, so you will be surrounded by at least three neighbors and the only one not surrounding is your street, but that street is only two meters. If you're unlucky, it's actually four meters to be able to build.
Speaker: So they make the window smaller and smaller, and then they put in the, what do you call it, the the small kind of opaque kind of glass, glazing. And so, but yeah, that little trick is once these windows get smaller, you have more wall surface to do earthquake safety, which means the wall can get thinner. Or like whatever woods you have to put in less material because you have more wall. Once your windows get bigger, your columns get bigger, and then yes i and and you have to calculate. So earlier we talked about the licensed architects. so If I build a new build, it's a first -class license architect. However, there's also a second -class license architect, and most carpenters will have that license. But the second class, I call it second license architect, they can build up to a two -story building.
Speaker: without having to do calculations. And which means you don't have to show those calculations to the ward or city where you're applying. So most houses are there for two stories done by carpenters, windows small, because they don't want to do the calculations and it's all a standard. You know, they've done a few houses, they know where to put stuff in and for safety job, just put in a, it's called a brace, a suji guy, those spots that are basically walls. And then there's foreigners come along and they've got to go open plan kitchen. Exactly what we did.
Speaker: Interesting. You now have a sujikai right where you're cooking, right? It's kind of hard to cook. It looks good. but and You mentioned insulation. yeah This is something we tell almost everyone. We look at all these older houses in the 70s and we're like, we tell them around, there's like no insulation. what's Is it really just cost cutting? That was the big thing? or like when did it's It's two things. so The regulations are lax. so Japan had an oil shock, but it didn't translate into, let's use insulation, so we save on oil.
Speaker: now The funny part is ah Japanese are quite low on the scale of energy use per capita per house or per house per capita. Sorry for the Americans, but the McMansions are horrible and you know you heat and cool your whole house. In su Japan, you heat and cool per room.
Speaker: Right. So you're all in the living room. You're sitting at the, what's called Kotaku, the table with the heater underneath and with the blanket. So your back is freezing, but at least your legs are warm. And if you fall asleep, this is how people spend new years here at a few of those. So the house is heated per room and the contractors know this. So everybody's sitting in the living room and then the bedrooms in venture are just cold because then you have your futons and it comes from the old houses, which were actually really cold. Heated toilet seats.
Speaker: Guess what? Your toilet is cold. There's no heating in the toilet. So they invented heated toilet seats, which can then be fired with all all kind of gadgets. So this is where the Japanese toilets evolved from, having no heating. It's that simple. So basically there's a lack of regulation. They allow contractors to not put it in. if They don't get punished. They have recently introduced an energy label. So the current houses and the houses going forward will be much better.
Speaker: but my experience in the past 10 years has been, I'm European, so we put insulation everywhere, flooring, walls, ceiling, even in between floors, and it's also sound insulation. And the insulation, so you get a quote, and it will have the electrical works, the wood works, the painting, whatever, tiles, gas, whatever. And then there's Zatsekulji, which is the miscellaneous works. And all of your insulation ends up in the miscellaneous works. Really? Why is it there? Because then you can take it out.
Speaker: Because basically your quote is 20 % more expensive than you thought, right? One is not to do the work. Two, they have to order it. Three, it's glass wool. So you need gloves and you need to put it in. And then it's the carpenter who has to do it. But the carpenter is like, look, guys, I'm a carpenter. I make wood. Why do you make me, you know, make my fingers itch because you have to put in the glass wool? The main contractor would go like, let's take that out. And then they tell you like, oh yeah, by the way, in Japan, we built for summer. on like What about the You need insulation in the summer too, it's hot. Exactly. Now, the thing is, this is of course around Tokyo and this is how they save money. Yeah, it's a cost for them, they don't have to move it, blah, blah, blah. Now, if you go to Hokkaido,
Speaker: Everything is perfect. They have the insulation. They have the double glazing. They have the faucets. There's actually, if you go to the catalog for faucet, there's always a faucet where you get an extra setting and it keeps dripping. So your pipes don't freeze in winter. So you always have to check which faucet you're picking because it will be the Hokkaido faucet. So the building system in Japan is made. They have extremes from Hokkaido to Okinawa, which is tropical. And then you even get a typhoon over your roof.
Speaker: So trust me, they have everything secured. Then, so, you know, it's not a lack, but it's basically, it's cost, it's contractors. trying to but Interesting. Yeah. know we now Now, I have to say, I have to say on top of that, the humidity is very high in Japan. So what if we do an installation and there's something called a dew point. The dew point is when the out outside temperature are high and then inside temperature low, water will condensate.
Speaker: right? And if that dew point is within your insulation, your insulation gets wet. That's why you have vapor barriers, right? Sorry, it's a bit technical now. The vapor barrier will let air through but keeps the moisture out. This is, it's called tie -back.
Speaker: So when you do insulation, you have to put tie back and then insulation. so And don't go too thick on the insulation. So I know Sweden house, imported houses, and they're great for a northern dry climate, whereas mine is 20. If you do that in Japan, they had a lot of problems in the beginning with the dew point. So there's basically moisture behind your walls. Now, for your akiyas, and there's a lot enough ventilation,
Speaker: Just basically within the walls there are 109 millimeters so basically just put 100 mil and put it in the wall and maybe a tieback sheet. Is there any way to like, we see a lot of people who are going to find these and we like, no, there's no insulation. Is there like a spray insulation or some kind of easy, you have to take down the walls yeah and put them in, right? Yeah. No, there is a, there is a foam insulation that that they can pump in, but because the way the system is built, your columns are at a 900 with 909 grit.
Speaker: then the plasterboard is put against that and it's screwed in. So if you want to find where to put in the installation, every 909, you have to make a hole, and right? Okay. Then it's easy to take off. Now, when you when you take off the boards, sometimes, especially on the ground floor, if the house is not well -ventilated, what do you call it? Sorry, mold. Form behind the boards. It's in any way good, so at least on the ground floor, to take off the boards. Just to see there's no mold behind it.
Speaker: Got it. Good thing we did that. Right. Joey, like now I'm worried. We didn't tie back, but I think whatever. Yeah. I mean, again, in the build house, it's so airtight that then the tieback will work in your Akia. Trust me, there's wind going everywhere. So you're on your fine the ventilation.
Speaker: and Another question on our Akia. We didn't double pane the windows, you know, and I know it's not going to be perfect installation, but do you think that's a ah worthwhile cost if we are, let's say we're living there for a longer period of time, double pane, like retroactively change all the windows?
Speaker: I think you can. But again, if your walls and you inserted your walls so that's good, so then the next step will be the windows Now the thing is with and then again change the whole window don't just change the glass because it's basically it's the frames. That are all and basically will leak so your normal frames are much better equipped, so I can definitely do that I would do that for the areas where you spend most of the time.
Speaker: Which is the ground floor living room kitchen because that's where we'll be heating most of the time. And then bedrooms, I wouldn't bother with an old house. I would more like. Do they make a lot of like the pre made windows for the old houses or is it kind of just like all are those custom orders at this point? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, basically, and windows in the end are always custom. But for the the housemakers, yes, they have certain series. And then it fits within this 909 system. So 818, 1818, and then the window fits within there. But then it always depends on what did the contractor do, what's the substructure. but If you're lucky, you can get the standard window. though If not, then it's automated. But any window in the sense is automated. Windows only get ordered after the contractor has built the opening.
Speaker: oh and that's when the window guy will come measure the opening and then gets you the perfect window so windows are never made from a plan unless it's a big building and they have taken into account a certain uh leeway to accommodate and then yes of course then they will order again if you need a thousand windows you're not going there measuring and then start production but yeah Don't you win those for a house? Yeah. They make them basically from scratch. Coon, what do you think more generally about Japanese real estate seems to be hot right now. A lot of people are interested in it. A lot of people specifically because it's cheap. Do you have any just general feelings towards?
Speaker: It's not cheap where I live. So that's downtown Tokyo, but it's cheap in the rest of Japan because it has a reason the Japan's running empty in the countryside. So yes, you can buy, if ever it's cheap, Akiya, but what's around it, right? And your service level is going down. Now, if you come there for.
Speaker: ah weekend, the month, whatever. You have a car and you go around. It's perfect. I find it great. I mean, for the long run, I think it's good for Japan. and are A lot of these houses, and the more people become the better. The countryside needs some revitalization. People have their businesses there. So it's just like everywhere else. The only point is your maintenance. And then also winter. If you're buying in the mountains, you'll have lots of snow. Again, I was earlier talking about typhoons. So people have storm shutters. So before you leave, close the storm shutters. I just learned as well.
Speaker: Working for another project, they want to blind on the outside. Over the fourth floor, they don't do blinds on the outside. And they're like, what's this? Because in Europe, you can see blinds everywhere. Typhoon, basically. So the the weather is extreme. Then again, look at European flood at the moment. Even in Japan, the weather will get more extreme. So, you know, again, sustainability perspective. Make sure your house can withstand some rainstorms, even if you're not there. So everything is shuttered.
Speaker: What do you think about one of the contributing factors that I hear people say why there's so many abandoned homes? You know, there's obviously a demographic factors, but the fact that Japanese people prefer to buy new, you know, whether it's cars or homes, they prefer a new structure. Do you think that would ever change? but Will there be more of a renovation culture in Japan?
Speaker: Yeah, so the average Japanese works very hard. Then secondly, again, Japan is a large, so I'm generalizing, right? So there is, of course, within certain subgroups, people do DIY and there's a big super Viva homes. You can buy all the stuff you want into your renovations. But even, let's say, if you start from the rental market, let's say you got a job in a big city and you move, you rent. And then when you move into the rental apartment, it's perfect, right?
Speaker: If I move into a Dutch rental apartment, I have to bring my own light bulbs, right? That's kind of the extreme. In the Netherlands, people will take everything. In Japan, the landlord takes care of your house, so it's perfect. So your mentality is already that every time you move, you move into a perfect place.
Speaker: So, why would you buy a 40 -year -old house and then you have to spend your weekends? First, you're young, so you have to work long hours. People have normal hours as well, but even then you might have a long commuting time. So, by the weekend comes on Saturday, you're dead tired. Why would you then spend hours renovating your house? And your wife will go like, none of my friends is renovating a house. Wives are important. Partners, maybe, I should say. so that's one contribution but i tell you the biggest reason and that's banks so if you go to the bank if you're checking mr and mrs tanaka and we have this great idea to buy this house in inaka and it's 40 years old it's beautiful big i don't know 50 tsubo 100 tsubo and you go to the bank this is great let's buy it let's get a loan bank i was like 40 years old now
Speaker: yeah but usually The house can fall apart next day because termites because whatever there is a system of course that you can go in and you can go check and and and those kind of things but you will need to bring your own lots of cash to buy that to buy the house one then you get a like okay why don't we take out a second loan to renovate and the bank us okay so you just we gave you a mortgage 50 % on a 40 year old house and now you're coming to us again which is the max we're going to give you and now you want to spend money to renovate it and they go like no because they said you bought it for I don't know 50 million this is more we're talking Tokyo numbers now and you need another 10, 15, 20 million the bank will be give you 2 million because in their valuation you spending 20 doesn't add you know 50 to 70 is not what they can sell it for yeah kind of like a car and it has all to do ah with how the houses are built so
Speaker: European houses are brick, stone, whatever, like a 400 -year -old house in the center of Amsterdam. Looks great, right? Japanese 400 -year -old house has had earthquakes for 400 years. And that also means all your pipes, all your joints have been moving.
Speaker: for and And so it's not only the house as a structure and it and it and it has moved, but again, you've torn down walls, you see how it's built, it's put together with plates, right, and it has been shaking, so at one point you'll you'll get cracks. So from a bank perspective, and that's I think the biggest reason their archaea is Again, spread out example, old house on a piece of land in the center of Tokyo, you go to the bank, I want to buy this, they say no. Okay, you tear it down, here's a piece of land, can I buy this and give me a loan for anyone? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. here you They'll show money at you. ah So the biggest obstacle to the renovation markets to keep old houses are basically the banks. They will not lend you money.
Speaker: Speaking of those ah really, really old houses, you know, have you done any renovations on the kominka kind of style houses? that We get a lot of dreamers on those and I know it's it hard. right And so there's a sub -market in Japan called Kominka. People will buy Kominka in the countryside and move them within Tokyo. It's a special sub -market.
Speaker: no bank will borrow money against it so either you have money yourself or you do it yourself or you have that particular sum to buy a 10 million old cominca somewhere and then bring it over from the mind was looking at it in kamakura kita kamakura kominko because the real estate guys could see the value of that house that they know people are interested boom prices are up right so some market niche right Do you need special like carpenter like if that I don't know some part was damaged and you you bought an old commingka some part was damaged you need like a special carpenter for that type of joinery or whatever's using it. I think any carpenter worth its money I would get an older guy to do it they have more experience.
Speaker: um And you run into what everybody runs into here in Japan. If you get the younger contractor who's out for a quick buck, then nothing is possible. And he'll put in cheap vinyl just to cover up that nice old joint that you wanted to repair. The hacks everywhere. So yeah, you would need to find somebody that at least has some skills.
Speaker: on average, any carpenter will have skills. And it's actually interesting because if you give them an interesting job, they're also interested because they don't get these requests. but Japanese basically want quick, cheap, dirty, done. right Individual people, they will work for a larger construction company.
Speaker: So they'll send to a site, okay, fix this, fix the floor, fix that. So all that should be done quick and dirt and cheap. If you do invite them and say, hello guys, can we do something here? Can we renovate it? Or their eyes light up and they go, oh yeah, yeah, sure. Let's try something. You need to find that guy. And that can take you through the eyes before you find that guy. We thought we found this. So when we winded the clock, we bought our place in Bepu. We talked to a couple of contractors. Contractor A was a big company that wanted the.
Speaker: the, you know, prefab kind of shower unit, stuff like that. Joey and I foolishly, we had a vision of like, let's make this place look really nice. Let's do an Airbnb. We went out. Let's, let's see in at points of this past year has some seem foolish, but we're almost at the end of the line here. So we went with the handyman who I think his eyes lit up. joe Joey had a vision of like a concrete shower and very custom type stuff.
Speaker: I think a lot of what you just said there, Joey, would you agree? He he was pretty excited. but Yeah. I asked him out of all his jobs, what's been his favorite? And maybe he was just trying to be nice to us, but he said it he liked our, the you know, cause he was getting to do different stuff. As as you mentioned, it's not the the same old standard stuff.
Speaker: You know, but you said something very interesting co in our last chat about our contractor experience. Like, Hey, he gave us a price. We came back, but can you kind of say that again? or what are you buy so So his eyes light up because one, you're a foreigner too. You have no clue of what's standard in Japan. And three is Christmas is coming basically. So you have no clue about pricing. Then he goes out and he makes a quote and it's yeah, it's what 30, 40, 50 % of your budget.
Speaker: You have to go back in and say, ah okay, that's not what we're looking for. Now my experience is I can go through the quotes and go like that. Come on, come on, come on. This is not, this is not the pricing it should be. And it all depends on.
Speaker: because he's taking a risk. There's a story behind why he quoted you more. If he deals with Japanese, Japanese has a certain expectation, he's gotten and in through that job through an introduction. If anything goes wrong, you have a person behind that you can call like, okay, we tried this, oh they're not paying, can you please push them to pay? Because that's a risk for him as a contractor. So in your case, I don't know why you found him,
Speaker: you're out of the blue. your Friend's friend. friend friends Which in a way then doesn't have that connection, so he's hedging. So these foreigners, but and that's what all foreigners do, that's what foreigners can do, they can disappear. There's no way for him to find you, right? So he does that job, he builds a beautiful concrete, and then you decide not to pay. Then he did all the work. I think to avoid that, you could start with smaller jobs and say, okay, do this, do that, and then as soon as he sends the invoice, you pay him.
Speaker: Which is already where Japanese corporations will be 30 days if they're a bit nastiest 60 days right really is work if they're small guys they work for larger contractors and these contracts on stupid either so they wait for the money from the client, then they pay the data subcontractor right so they all get squeezed, so I think to build up a report.
Speaker: with a guy like that is to show that you can pay, right? Now it works both ways because the guy could be a hack, right? So you let him do a floor first. You let him do something else. If that works perfectly and you pay him, then it's fine. And then you give him a bigger job. and we We learned the hard way. We hired a guy and it's turned out that the client was paying him, but he was plugging holes for his other projects where he was late. So he wasn't even starting on the project. I was think that happened to us. It could still be happening, but our place is almost done, right?
Speaker: So, I mean, you have the biggest carrot, which is like, we need to pay you, right? There's a certain sum left outstanding, but with Japanese contractors, better keep that sum behind. And then even if the small stuff has to be, you know, the house is delivered, and then you do snagging, it's gold, right? Take a little blue tape, and you saw that this needs to be fixed, needs to be taken into effect, and the guys have to come in. This is a very normal procedure. Once that's done, you pay in the full amount. Because what happens is, they will do the snagging repair work, but This is Japan. Guys are busy. This was one job. They're already at the next job. They don't want to go back an hour to your site to fix stuff. So they'll come back in a month. So you always have the carrots. Keep a certain amount of payment. And don't be nasty. It's like, you know, they did 90 % of the work. Pay 90%. Keep 10%. And then you'll come back. You pay them to 10%. So don't get nasty. Like, oh, I'll pay you half.
Speaker: Yeah. Look at the contract and then at the end you go in, okay, stuff's still missing by when? Next week. Okay. I can pay you 90 % now. Give me an invoice and I'll pay you 10 % or make it 80 -20. And that's fair. And as you pay, write the 80%, then he goes, okay, these guys are good. So I'll do my work.
Speaker: you and Interesting. Yeah, that's good. Joey, we should definitely do that before we pay Sato -san the remaining. Sato -san, if you ever listen to this podcast, I propose this. Yeah. So there's a situation where Joey, he was there and he put all these outlet spots. He was like, Sato -san, I want to have outlets here, here, here. Like Joey even blue taped it. And I think you, Joey, you said it to him like 12 times, I feel like, and he didn't Yeah. We went overboard on a lot of outlets. We asked them and marked everywhere. And then once when I was there, I walked around with them and I pointed out all the outlets. I did give them the caveat at this point, just some context, like we're like seven months in to the, you know, we kind of wanted to speed things up. So I did give them the caveat, like, Hey, like if it's moody, you know, gave gave him out jerry I gave that. But second thing is, was it in the original quote? This would have been like an extra.
Speaker: Okay. Did you tell him you will pay for the extra because you have to be clear. So the proper, the proper way is looks at the sun. I want 12 more outlets. Okay. Check the contract. We only asked for six. So it's six more. Give me the quote.
Speaker: i Then you don't have a surprise because if he does the work and then i'll go, oh, by the way, that was a million yen. I had to put the piping through the wall, through the neighbor's house and have to come back and then ah they'll have excuses, right? Why does this a million yen? So step is before you do the work, this is Japan, right?
Speaker: And it should be in any country, by the way. Before you do the work, you you set the scope, then the contractor knows what he needs to do. He gives you a price for that scope. And then that was the main contract, let's say. Anything extra, you do the same step. I want 12 extra outlets. This is a price. Yes, no. We agree on the price.
Speaker: he but He'll build it. So asking for extra work is the main headache for any contractor. Yes. What you think is like, can you can you just put it in? No, no, no. Sato -san doesn't do it. He has to call the electrician. But he has made a contract with the electrician and that's fixed.
Speaker: You know, whatever kitchen lies at the 10 points. Now you're asking for 22 points. Right. Yeah. Doesn't work. I think you can ask for one ah please in the kitchen. We forgot can you put one and especially do it when the electrician is there on that day. Can you just wire that one? That's fine. Okay. Again.
Speaker: But you asked for as well. Sorry, just the background. There are columns every 90 centimeters. How does he get that wire into all of those? He needs to open either the wall or pull a wire, unless you want these really beautiful plastic molds stuck on the wall going through the outlet.
Speaker: don't want that. I think that was part of the issue. It was that, so we were coming to and from the house, like there would be like two or three months periods where he was there working by himself. Then we'd come back and then point stuff out. And I think maybe when I finally did do that outlet walk, it might've been a little bit too late and he had done some work on the walls already, maybe put the installation in already. And I did give him the out. So and it it could be my fault.
Speaker: It's okay, Joey. It's fine. Well, we'll figure it out. Um, so we're, I mean, good work. I think the house is going to be done in two weeks. we We're waiting on confirmation here. Um, you know, we're going to go in, we're going to, we're going to tag it or in and show be like, is it pretty common to be.
Speaker: very like aggressive in tagging and if we're I don't know what's the proper way to like okay not make it mad of like hey can we get that change and stuff like that no no no no correct so the thing is these guys worked on it uh what are you saying no seven eight months so they're first they're workmen they've done the work they're proud of their work that everybody has pride in what he or she does so When you go in there in an aggressive way, you'll get an aggressive answer. So that doesn't work. Now, there is a certain level of expectation that you expect to work to be done to a certain standard. So when you can point to standards, then be as aggressive as you want. But also think what you agreed on. So the set of drawings. So then as we as architects are always making drawings, and we follow up with drawings. Because in the end, it's like, oh, I had a window here. No, no, no, no you don't. You know, like, am I drawing? I had a window here.
Speaker: we got no drawing so that um But then it's either either you should have done sketches or whatever. So part of the YRN architect, part of the architect's drawing set will be the first three pages, which lists, and again, each architect does it differently, but it will list the standards of work. And you're working with the Takanaka, that's like 10, 12 pages, but it lists everything, like from the quality of the concrete, the quality of the plasterboard, the quality of the paint, how many layers of piping needs, it it doesn't need to be in piping and it's literally for us already three pages and that's the standard quality. Nobody ever reads that but everything is in there and then you get to the drawings so in this case if you miss the drawings then it's your vision and his interpretation of your vision. Now you're both international, you're living in North America, real estate is a thing
Speaker: Welcome to Japan. Your house looks like crap because that was the standard 40 years ago. It hasn't moved much beyond. Because Japan is an island. And your contractor, do ask him if he's ever been abroad. and Never been on a plane, is what he says. His um knowledge of the world is Japan. So everything you will see, and I'm not trying to scare you now, but everything you will get in your house is a Japanese solution.
Speaker: And that might not correspond with your North American solution. Yep. All right. This is the gist of it. So that's where you have drawings to show them like, no, no, no, no, this is how it should be done. So so again, not not to scare you. I'm not sure what you asked, but I see the value in drawings now because there's there's other places like around lighting that I think um got kind of got you know fell away as well, so I see the value. and and right So again, this is a podcast or lesson for everybody out there you're talking to the contractor.
Speaker: This contractor guy is not going to climb a ladder to put that light up. The um electrician will do that. So already two steps where it could go wrong. Once when you point it to the ceiling, he goes, i said oh yeah, sure. And then Sato -san will point to the ceiling to the electrician. Two steps is already, we're talking about three points now. Game of telephone a little bit. Sato -san, electrician. That thing could end up outside if you don't.
Speaker: if you don't or yeah that's why you have tape and okay you grab the ladder and say this lamp yep yeah right and this is what he does or you take the green tape with a with a with a with a with a sharpie and say I put a cross on it and put the green tape electrician then knows it goes there so there is a process you walking around saying things and having an a vision is not and again his eyes see different things ah honestly as a general. No, no that that i we learned a lot there. I think we're definitely going to do our next house a little differently with the at least drawings and clear agreements. One last thing with this house we're getting is about done. ah We did not explicitly ever discuss getting it painted. This is something we've we've thought about. you know Is it appropriate at the end?
Speaker: To be like, Hey, when you have time, or should we try to push it right away? Be like, Hey, can you paint this for this initial amount? How like is painting an outside of the old house difficult or a big task for the contractor? No, it shouldn't be. I mean, houses get painted normally when people do the maintenance every 10, 15 years, you would paint it. So, um, ah do understand it's two layers of paint because whatever is now on there, they're not going to scrape it off. It's some kind of paint or finish. So what you'll do is, uh, there will be a.
Speaker: you You will need to fix as a primer basically what the primer does it takes all the dirt all the grime it basically fixes it to this to the substructure and it soaks it in. So he'll paint it it's it's a transparent paint one and we'll go over with the second layer now that the House is dark red and you wanted white he needs probably two coats of white. Right, and so also think of where the color scheme is.
Speaker: um And again it's also something depending on the sale of the house and all it looks like it's something you don't have to do now, you can call them back in because everything with contractors as well, if you want a cheaper cost they're busy. So if you say a chemical you pain, give us a prize first you you don't get the price and you ask quotes because you don't need to get the scaffolding the primer the paint.
Speaker: also And again, he doesn't do it. He has a painter for that and depends on their schedule. If you leave it a bit to them, you know, yeah don't give them carte blanche like it will be done next year. Let's say, how about in the next two months we get the house painted? Could you get us a quote to find a painter? Because for them as well, they want it next week, these these Americans. So then,
Speaker: they go like, and then price goes up, but hey, actually, I don't have time. But if you tell them like, give me two months, three months, again, maybe don't paint in winter. Sorry. yeah So let's take it over winter, right? and Although winter is a very dry in Japan, in Bepu. Yeah, it's very dry. um You could do it until December probably, asking. In Europe, we never paint on the outside in winter. So I don't know.
Speaker: but Good tips. One, even follow up questioning of it. It's not, we're not going to do this for this house. You know, I love that style of the show Suki ban. I burned wood, burn Cedar. Have you, have you ever worked with that? Is that just crazy? I thought you were going to ask about that next. I know. i I think that look is so, so cool. You know, and I mean i mean it is it is very cool but make sure you get a really good quote so there will be a guy that that wood is not something you buy off the shelf they'll buy the wood and there will be a guy with a burner yeah standing there for a few days burning wood basically every plank will be burned and then then it gets put on which is which is a normal job. um
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's a great look. But the question is, again, I'm an architect. Does it fit with the look of the house? OK. I mean, you can do whatever I just see. you again I'm the architect here. You can do part of the house, like like like the bottom part or around your entrance, kind of. yep But it's also like, yeah, those really old wooden houses when they're totally black with a really nice pitched roof on it. Yeah, it looks really cool. Looks good. OK. And here's my other tip. Viva, super homes, buy the wood and buy the burner.
Speaker: yeah And then just just take it on the facade. Cool. Well, we're coming up on time. I have maybe one or two more questions for you. I guess one quick question. Who's who's a Japanese architect you follow or or you like or find inspiration out of?
Speaker: I mean, the the architect we follow the most, and as everybody else, I guess King of Kuma is the most famous of all, like he's got a really nice experimental style to it. But I would say the one that is my personal favorite would be Sejima -san, which is a female architect. Not recently, they won the Pritzker already 10, 15 years ago. What was your name again? Yes, Sejima Kazuyo Sejima.
Speaker: Okay. <unk>ma kazzio And then her partner is called Nishizawa Ryue. And they have a joint office called SANA. S -A -N -A -A. So they did actually project in the US as well. They did the museum in the Bowery in New York.
Speaker: There's an open -air museum somewhere, so they're quite a big international office, and they have amazing work. But and architecture is about aesthetics, so you have to like anti -aesthetic. And then big pie in the sky, if you know what project would you build for yourself? What are you excited about? If you have if money was not a problem, where would you buy where would you buy in Japan and what would you build?
Speaker: Quite, okay. So I would definitely buy in the center of Tokyo. I think that's where the most value is. I'm involved with the Osaka Expo and we're just doing, ah we're with the local architects for the Czech Republic and they're doing a building in CLT. It's a five -story building. It's amazing. It's hard to say it's a curved ramp that's 260 meters long, but we're working now with CLT, which I found the great material.
Speaker: It's almost impossible to show the CLT in Tokyo because of fire safety regulations. So I'm still trying to find out. You can paint it, which has a fire rating proofing. So something I'm looking into. So that would basically give a really nice wooden house within the center of Tokyo. That's what I'm looking at. If I were to do something abroad, and are brought outside of Tokyo, I would definitely go for like an akiya or like an older building. And then I think what to go for are the farmhouses.
Speaker: okay You can see them still. They used to have the thatched roof, but the thatched is really expensive to maintain. So they're all covered in metal sheets and you just see them regularly standing. But people who live there know their value and they're kind of more like the richer farmers that have these beautiful farmhouses. They really wear, really wear for sale. um That's something I would definitely look into. Is is that like the Hida Takiama kind of like yeah that style?
Speaker: Well, they're really pitched because they're in that certain region. They're the ones that are more on the countryside. They're less pitched, but they will have a thatch rule. Yeah, yeah. So those are the old ones. And occasionally you can find them. I had an American friend. I lost touch. Maybe you know him. I should find a name. He had one close to Mount Fuji, more like Hakone.
Speaker: Uh, and he was living at, but it's in the mountain. So he was saying as well, if he left his glass of water outside in winter, the water was frozen in the glass. So it's like that cold, but that was part beautiful. Okay. We'll keep an eye out on Aki and Martin. If we find one, you're going to be the first person we reach out to one quick question actually on the CLT. Is that a common product they use? And I know in the U S I'm starting to pick it up. Is it like, how new is it in Japan?
Speaker: Same, same as in the US is pretty new, they're getting up pretty nice buildings they just did a over actually did a think 1520 story building even of course there's a lot of steel seven volts because structurally you wouldn't get up to 20 stories. um There's a lot of issues then with the fire rating and how to set that after put a sprinkler installation in. um so like trust me 80 % of the little houses you see are built in wood. So not that wood is new, but woods gets clapped and they've figured out this post and beam system. So CLT works a bit different because you work with sheets. So don't have to be adapted to the earthquake code. um But yeah, it's coming and I think it's it's unavoidable. but
Speaker: again I'm in sustainability don't correlate that if we're building in woods that we're being sustainable because we don't have enough forest to build the wooden house for everybody on this planet so we need it it's nice for pr and maybe we can get a bit of concrete but concrete for sure um you know, does don't tear the house down in 20 years, European houses or keep the concrete for a hundred years, you're saving the planet because we're not continuously scrapping, build, scrapping, build. I think that's the biggest problem of the building industry, how to be sustainable. So build more, build more buildings in CLT is not a solution to our environmental problems. It's build okay mark built long -term, again, a hundred years, 200 years in mind. You know, concrete, baby.
Speaker: Yeah but concrete I think wood as well like again Amsterdam, center of Amsterdam, 400 year old houses, their frames are wood and then they're clad in bricks so it's possible. Now again the Netherlands doesn't have earthquakes so it's a different system again.
Speaker: Awesome, Koen. Well, this has been super, super helpful. like How do people reach you? We'll put your information in, ah or how how do you want people to contact you? Yeah, I think we'll talk to anybody. I think that's a fun of the job as well. Again, we we we design bedrooms, so when you have couples and then they're designing bedrooms, we're also turned into psychologists once in a while. is This is a fun part of being an architect. we don't We know sometimes too much about the clients, but no, anybody's welcome.
Speaker: I would say I live and work in Tokyo, so anything in the vicinity of Tokyo would be preferred, otherwise I do charge for travel costs. So in that sense, it's, ah it's a how do I say, it's it's easier for everyone. How to reach me? it Basically, front office tokyo dot .com is our website, and there is an email address on that. And apparently, if you mention our name on Reddit, people know us as well. so Awesome.
Speaker: Cool. Well, hey, thank you so much for spending time with us. This is the second conversation. This is, this has been one of the funnest conversations we've had. I think we've learned a lot. So I agree. Thanks so much for being on. Perfect. I wish you good luck with the house in Beppu. Finish soon. So please put it up. Come visit. Come visit. If I'm a new Beppu, definitely.
