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Episode 2 - An Interview with Dr. Joe Morgan, CEO and Co-Founder, Waya Health
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Convergent Health: How Personalized Data and XR will Transform Healthcare
Dr. Morgan is a board-certified anesthesiologist, and the founder and President at Waya® Health. Dr. Morgan’s interest in extended reality started shortly after completing his residency in 2015. Seeing the vast potential for extended reality in healthcare, he and his team began building systems that pioneer extended reality technologies for patient-centered applications. Waya® is a healthcare technology company composed of practicing physicians and software developers focused on creating assessments, diagnostics and therapeutic solutions to help patients. Dr. Morgan conceived and contributed to the development of the Waya® Health platform – an immersive system designed for the safe and effective implementation of patient-centric virtual and augmented reality applications. Waya® Health has become a company with national reach, used by healthcare institutions across the United States.
Dr. Morgan completed medical school at SUNY Upstate Medical University in Syracuse, NY and completed his residency in anesthesiology at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. While at the Cleveland Clinic, he designed, developed, and patented a system for the collection and the environmentally friendly destruction of controlled substance waste. He is currently the perioperative medical director at Watauga Medical Center in Boone North Carolina. He has created educational programs to guide healthcare providers through the process of starting their own immersive care programs and has also advanced educational efforts for residents focused on the use of extended reality.
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Transcript
Conversation Kickoff
00:00:12
Speaker
Well, third time is a charm, Joe. So ah on our third try, I think I've got it going now the way I'd like it to. um How are you doing? I'm well.
Weather Warnings and Cruise Stories
00:00:22
Speaker
And it's so you you and I might get disconnected because of um external natural forces, correct?
00:00:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, there's a big thunderstorm here, but I think we're we're in the clear for the time being. Okay. um And you you just got back from from vacation, a ah ah nice ah cruise. I don't know if you saw the news yesterday. There was a big, um some kind of ah cruise line in Galveston and some kind of 34 person brawl that required people to be taken off the boat.
00:00:54
Speaker
Oh, really? Wow. That was not you. No, it wasn't me no
00:01:00
Speaker
wasn't me. No. Where'd you go? So we went Cozumel, Caribbean, Costa Maya, um and Coco k the private island. So it was ah it was a nice little family respite that's sort of coming yeah becoming a family tradition.
Podcast Intentions and Guest Introduction
00:01:20
Speaker
Okay, very cool. Well, um we've been trying to to schedule this for a few weeks now, um and I wanted you to be my first, ah but you're now my my second, which probably means we'll get married.
00:01:32
Speaker
um but so i yeah So you're the second interviewee, Dr. Joe Morgan, ah CEO and co-founder of Wya Health.
00:01:44
Speaker
Um, and there's a whole lot to cover, um, and a few different directions we can go. i have a feeling this will probably not be our, our one and only, ah interview. Um, but you know, what I did want to do and what I'm trying to do a bit differently with this podcast is besides just talking about your company and what you do ah is actually talk more about you um and where you came from, ah which I think helps explain you know the company that you're running and what it is you do and why you do it.
00:02:17
Speaker
um So let's let's start a
Early Influences and Family Background
00:02:19
Speaker
little bit at the beginning. and And a lot of this, and actually I don't know any of this myself. So for me, it'll be ah illuminating and and hopefully for the audience as well. um let's not go all the way back to elementary or grade school unless, unless there's something there.
00:02:33
Speaker
Is there something early on, you know, that younger than you were 10 that, that pushed you in the direction of, of being a a doctor, your, your, your father and mother physician? Neither of them are. my My mother was a medical technologist at a local hospital, and I think that that probably had a little bit of influence on me. who used to go in and look under this the microscope at slides, and I think that sparked a little bit of interest in biology, for which I think I've always had an aptitude for.
00:03:06
Speaker
um and my father was a a landscaper slash janitor at a local university, Binghamton University, back home where i grew up.
00:03:18
Speaker
Okay. I thought custodial worker was the ah correct. Yeah. You noticed like a kind of a half second pause there. was trying to think of the the proper nomenclature. But yeah, no, he he did – his main gig there was the athletic fields. He drove the – the big, ah you know, John Deere level lawnmower ah to to to do all that stuff. And he had a side gig with his own sort of landscape service that my brother and i occasionally helped out with.
00:03:51
Speaker
ah But when I was really little, he was a planning manager at a local image company. They made industrial film and you know like many of the sort of industries within upstate New York at the time, they they just had a complete failure to modernize.
00:04:10
Speaker
I guess closely related
Educational Journey and High School Experiences
00:04:12
Speaker
to Kodak? or Yeah. so So Eastman Kodak is from Rochester and that's where my wife is from. And I think they had a very similar story, but this was called the Anatech Image Corporation and they they made industrial film and My dad tells a story about how Fujifilm came out with a digital camera and, you know, the brass essentially, you know, per his story, you know, essentially said, you know, that'll never catch on.
00:04:42
Speaker
And I think the rest is history. i think I think they were they're probably having the same conversation about AI as well about 20, 30 years ago. Yeah, right. and So where in upstate did you grow up near Rochester?
00:04:57
Speaker
Binghamton. Binghamton, okay. Yeah, Binghamton, Ithaca area. so is that Is that north of Albany or south? South. So it's a southern tier.
00:05:09
Speaker
Precisely where I grew up is the long axis of Pennsylvania. You know how it's a straight line? Yeah. If you go about five miles north of there, about in the middle of the state, that's where I grew up.
00:05:20
Speaker
Okay. so So humble beginnings, it it sounds like. you no no No silver spoon. Zero silver spoon. Yeah, no. not not even Not even bronze.
00:05:31
Speaker
Yeah, no. But we're ah you know my brother and I were very lucky. We had two great parents who... who really cared about us. And, you know, the four of us in ah in a little single floor, you know, approximately thousand square foot house. But, you know, we had everything we needed.
00:05:52
Speaker
Okay. and And was your father hoping you and your brother would would take over the landscaping business? I don't know about that. Probably not. Okay.
00:06:02
Speaker
All right. yeah um So, ah well, so going back to my original question, um is there something early on, you know, maybe before you got to college that, that drew, create your interest in, in medicine and healthcare?
00:06:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think fundamentally it was that aptitude I had in biology um when I was in, i think it was seven seventh grade. um At the end, at the conclusion of that year, i was approached to skip a grade in several different subjects. and Biology and math and were the were the two main ones. and did Did you skip a grade?
00:06:47
Speaker
ah Well, yeah, I did in those subjects. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. And so ah that basically created a chain reaction where I was able to ultimately get a lot of college credit out of the way before I even started undergrad. So that was a nice little all bonus.
00:07:06
Speaker
Okay. um And so well so it sounds like you you graduated high school youre probably- near top of your class or with honors of some sort. Um, and, uh, when you started looking at schools, I mean, did you, did you yet have an idea of what you wanted to go into upon graduating high school?
00:07:26
Speaker
Uh, yeah. So a quick, funny story about a class rank. I was, uh, So my best friend in high school was the valedictorian and he was, ah and don't think there was any catching him.
00:07:40
Speaker
ah You know, he was um very bright and, ah you know, did his homework and and did all the things he needed to do, but he was also, you know, a lot brighter than me.
00:07:53
Speaker
ah but But my other friend and I were kind of neck and neck for second and third. And it's just a hilarious story that I recall when I was ah when i was a junior, i had this conversation with my high school principal who basically told me in so many words that, you know, Joe, if you get salutatorian, I'm still not letting you talk at graduation.
00:08:21
Speaker
ah So, you know. So do you want to elucidate on that?
Cultural Exposure and University Choice
00:08:25
Speaker
Well, i mean, you know, I think um I've, you know, I'm i'm definitely not ah somebody who one can easily attach a label to.
00:08:40
Speaker
It's really hard. I mean, I certainly have aspects of a polymath about me that, you know, I'm interested in a lot of different things. ah But, you know, I also um and like to have fun. And, you know, i think certainly back in high school, youthful foolishness was certainly an integral component of my life.
00:09:04
Speaker
So I think that's essentially where that came from. But okay no no jail time in high school. No jail time in high school. But yeah, no lot of fun, a lot of fun. And, you know, upstate New York was a great place to grow up because it was particularly where I grew up, because, you know, ah in the course of 10 miles,
00:09:24
Speaker
Binghamton, which is the city just north of the town that I grew up in, literally a couple miles away, ah you know is ah is very rough. I mean, it's a rough inner city. It's the first reasonable-sized city outside of New York City if you head in the in sort of a western direction.
00:09:42
Speaker
And um you know the the next concentric circle outside of that is a very thin rim of suburbs, And then, you know, the next a concentric circle outside of that is straight up rural.
00:09:55
Speaker
So, you know, as the bird flies five or 10 miles in some cases, you go from ah dense inner city urban environment to through suburbs into, into you know very rural. So I got exposed to, you know, a cross section of, I think, the greater country having having the chance to grow up where I did.
00:10:18
Speaker
I did have a, um I had a a short two week ah high school experience. I think was between my my junior and senior year at Alfred University yeah in Rochester.
00:10:30
Speaker
And it was like a ah summer thing for if you thought you wanted to go into engineering. um And it was a fun time. I i remember it fondly.
00:10:40
Speaker
um i But I didn't also, you know outside of that, I didn't have much of a feel for upstate New York until the last few years when I started teaching with Champlain in Burlington.
00:10:51
Speaker
yeah um And so I found myself, you know during the first year, i I went up every week to to teach as part of the opportunity. But some days I was flying into Albany, others into Burlington. So the times I flew into Albany and then you know drove the three hours,
00:11:08
Speaker
um But just, you know beautiful area. and um yeah, I mean, I can see why why people you know like that that area. i think I guess, you know, quite a bit different once you get to, well, New York State's a a pretty large state and and Buffalo from Albany from Rochester, I would imagine are very different so cultural cities.
00:11:29
Speaker
Yeah, no, you're right. And it's, ah it's, it's, it's funny in that, ah you know, I went to undergrad Clemson, and we can get into that in a second. But, you know, ah that's in South Carolina. And it seemed for for some time, no matter what I told people about, you know, New York state being a state, no matter what I said ah in their mind, it was, you know, I grew up in Manhattan.
00:11:54
Speaker
Right. now Well, I guess, ah yeah, I guess that's a big cultural change. I mean, that's pretty, pretty far, that's below the Mason Dixon line. That is. Yeah. um And I don't know. So I guess what early, early nineties, mid nineties for undergrad. and ah No, 2001, graduated high school and started. Oh man, now like no I feel old. ah ah So was after, um actually after the dot-com. So you you actually didn't live through the dot-com era.
00:12:23
Speaker
Yeah, no I, well, yeah, I did. I mean, and I think to answer your question from a couple of minutes ago, you know, i I think I had ah ah still have a strong aptitude in biology.
00:12:36
Speaker
ah but I, um, you know, I've always been interested in technology. um and my interest in technology perhaps started,
00:12:47
Speaker
ah at a summer camp program, uh, that this is elementary school where I was invited. think there was one kid from each school that was, you know, elected by teachers or whatever to go.
00:12:59
Speaker
And it was a, uh, a summer camp put on by IBM. Okay. Trivia about the greater Binghamton area is that, uh, IBM was actually founded there in Indicott, uh, New York.
00:13:13
Speaker
Uh, there's, there's nothing left there of IBM. They kind of got out of Dodge, but, when i when I was little, um you know, Binghamton was one of the the best places to raise a family. There was just an extremely high concentration of between there, the university and the hospital, you know, scientists, engineers, uh, and so forth. And so, um I, I went to that summer camp, uh, that really, sparked my interest in technology and, you know, was always the sort of kid who would take things apart and get trouble for taking things apart.
00:13:52
Speaker
Uh, and then, uh, and then in the latter half of middle school into high school, you know I had jobs and stuff, but but one of the things I did to to make money was build computers for people and sell them.
Business Ventures and Academic Shifts
00:14:06
Speaker
ah And so that was a nice little way. So so you were you were an early Michael Dell, Mark Cuban. That's right. Yeah. I guess you could say that. But yeah, no, it was, ah you know, gas was 95 cents back in the day. I remember yeah i remember gas was a dollar a gallon.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. and And, you know, if Trump has his way, it will be again in six months, but I won't hold my breath. Yeah. I won't complain either if it goes down low. I wouldn't complain. Yeah.
00:14:37
Speaker
um And so, you know, i so think just thinking, you know, you you mentioned IBM kind of being founded in Binghamton. I guess I didn't really realize that because I've, you know, they they have large campuses here in the DC area and um some that are smaller though. But I i guess, there you know, there there isn't quite the technology manufacturing in upstate New York, you know that there once was. And right Kodak was a huge one.
00:15:02
Speaker
um i guess Corning, Corning is still up there. Corning is still there in the town of Corning. And, you know, they were contrast them with Anatech, the image company I mentioned previously.
00:15:16
Speaker
Corning was actually, quick ah to move to fiber optic because you know, they they're a glass company. Yeah. And they've done a lot of pioneering in the fiber optic space.
00:15:28
Speaker
And they've been doing that for, you know, three or four decades now at this point. And they're still around. um And yeah, upstate New York has a lot of ah tech origins. Of course, you know, there was the obligatory mass exodus to either, you know, Palo Alto or Raleigh.
00:15:46
Speaker
ah Most of the stuff just- I've never heard Palo Alto and Raleigh mentioned in the same sentence normally. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it was i was just about to say it's um most of it was to Raleigh from the upstate New York area because of, the i think, probably the geographical proximity.
00:16:05
Speaker
But I distinctly remember a time where, you know, a lot of people we knew, friends or whoever, were were moving to North Carolina, which is, of course, where I now live. but And that was because they're you know their dad was a IBM engineer or whatever.
00:16:22
Speaker
And, you know, it, it happened, a you know, swiftly. Which also now, now explains why i know Lenovo has such a large presence in Raleigh and now has their name on the stadium.
00:16:36
Speaker
I didn't know that. Oh yeah. Well, that yeah. With the actually from the the, where the Canes played last night, it's called Lenovo stadium. Okay. um So you, you made the decision. What what was the decision to go to Clemson?
00:16:50
Speaker
Yeah, so when I was a junior- I mean, nothing wrong with Clemson. I didn't mean it in a derogatory fashion. Oh, no, I didn't take it as such. it was I wouldn't change it for the world.
00:17:03
Speaker
um And it it was pure serendipity why I went there. When I took my SATs, one of the things, like at after you're done or whatever, you can bubble in you know into schools that you know you want to automatically send the scores to or whatever.
00:17:20
Speaker
And so you know, Clemson was one of them. ah kind of did not want to stay around. You know, Cornell's right there in town. Binghamton University, which is a great school, is right there in town.
00:17:33
Speaker
ah Both great schools. But, ah you know, i did not want to be within, you know, a few hours of home. but was Was there a program at Clemson you were interested in or was there some other connection to Clemson?
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah, so I'll tell you. So I filled out, I bubbled it in on my SATs. And at some point later, weeks or months later, ah you know, you take your SATs and your junior typically, or at least from what I recall.
00:18:00
Speaker
And, um, I got a letter in the mail that said you're accepted on the outside. I said, okay. So I thought, well, maybe I should. On the envelope, it told you you were accepted. On the outside, yeah. That's quite unusual.
00:18:15
Speaker
Yeah. and And, you know, they were really, at that point, um they were really making a strong effort to ah recruit, ah you know,
00:18:27
Speaker
ah people with some sort of, you know, academic accomplishment. And um so, so I thought, well, you know, ah given that, you know, i had a certain amount of money that my parents saved for me, it wasn't a ton. And, you know, I wanted to obviously not come out of college with a bunch of debt. So I applied ah given that letter, it just basically said, you know, your acceptance is provisional upon your application.
00:18:51
Speaker
And, you know, I was obviously, you uh, just curious based on that. And then I got off, I got ah essentially a full ride. And so that made the decision very easy.
00:19:02
Speaker
yeah okay and, uh, you know, there was other schools that I looked at got into, uh, you know, we visited all of them and I really just, it resonated with me. It was kind of my sort of, it matched whatever, you know, was in my head at the time for a college experience. And so,
00:19:21
Speaker
you know went down there and and had a had a great four years. and And so when you when you started, what did youow yet you yet have an idea of what you wanted to study or you're still kind of exploring?
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah, i did. i i I went under and I was technically a computer and electrical engineering major for two years. Okay. I took all of the- That that that but that now explains a lot.
00:19:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I took all of the – I didn't get into, like, ah hardcore engineering per
Impact of Academic Decisions
00:19:51
Speaker
se, but I, you know, got all of the, ah you know, the calc and the physics and, you know, all of the sort of freshman-level courses and some of the second-year-old-level courses.
00:20:04
Speaker
And at some point during my sophomore year, ah I changed to finance ah because I thought finance was, you know, just more – ah Number one, it was easier.
00:20:17
Speaker
i think at that time in my life, I was really looking to you know run around and have fun. ah yeah can Can I share, it can i can I do a a brief segue and share a short story that may yeah made me think about it? And you you have one son, correct?
00:20:33
Speaker
Correct. And how old is he? He is now 10. 10. Okay. So I'm not, and what grade is he in? He is in fourth. In fourth. Okay, perfect. This is fantastic.
00:20:45
Speaker
um So this is for all the parents out there, um of which i'm I'm not a parent, only of a parent of a cat, ah my wife and I. um But, you know, something that's, ah it unfortunately, it affected my my GPA at for college for my entire four years.
00:21:05
Speaker
So when I was in the third grade, um I did not know, and I don't think my my parents knew or or anyone, know, in any kind of orbit near me knew, that if you're not in the advanced math class in third grade, you are not on track to take calculus your senior year of high school.
00:21:28
Speaker
Hmm. And, you know, but so both my brothers ah older, about 10 years older, went did engineering and, um, and I grew up around that and, and them, you know pulling stuff apart from backs of radio shacks, uh, and, and, and that whole nine yards.
00:21:45
Speaker
And so i I knew I wanted to try to go into engineering. Um, sorry, excuse me.
00:21:53
Speaker
And, uh, But you know by the time I got to around 10th 11th grade, and then i started to realize, but wait a minute, I'm not going to take calculus because I didn't didn't start in the advanced math class when I was in third grade.
00:22:07
Speaker
And so ah when i um I ended up actually, I was taking trigonometry as a senior. I decided I took ah advanced physics, ah even though I was supposed to be in calculus at the same time and I wasn't...
00:22:23
Speaker
um and I struggled through it. but And then when I got to freshman year at Villanova and I was you know engineering um undergrad, um freshman year, first semester, ah you take physics one and calc one.
00:22:38
Speaker
And they teach it, unfortunately, in the manner that you they they already believe that you've had calculus already from high school. And so um i got i got creamed you know pretty pretty hard my first semester freshman year.
00:22:54
Speaker
ah Probably you know for most would have, probably should have made you want to change majors. um but And it did affect my my GPA for the entire four years. I never completely recovered from it.
00:23:07
Speaker
um but's ah But so, yeah, so I don't know what aspirations your son has. I'm not saying you need to push him or anything. I'm just saying, as for for any parent, who knew?
00:23:19
Speaker
um So, right you know, if you're if you're a tiger mom, you know, they actually, if you're a tiger mom, you probably already know that. So anyway, yeah I digress.
00:23:30
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think it's funny and that last point you made about kids, I was told this you know, ah from the first couple of days after my son was born. and it's so true. They have their own agenda, you know? ah and You mean even at one?
00:23:47
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, they decided what time they're going to cry, what time we're going to need a new diaper. I mean, you don't decide that, right? And so, and you know, both literally and figuratively, you know, they have their own agenda. Right.
00:24:03
Speaker
You know, my son is very into and it's just his natural, i guess, predisposition, but he ah loves to code. he ah He uses his favorite thing in the whole world probably is the scratch app.
00:24:18
Speaker
And he's been he's been coding. i don't know what the Scratch app is. Well, it's a it is ah wonderful a web-based application that was built by mit i probably over a decade ago now.
00:24:35
Speaker
And ah it basically you know um is drag and drop type interface, but really you know you're moving components into a sort of work area. um but but you're coding you know okay it's a graphical user interface to you know but carry out different coding tasks and so yeah and he's been doing that for a while and you know i never pushed him in that direction you know i showed it to him once and that was it so i mean i can't even imagine it it's well i mean i don't want to get off topic so much but you know just just in terms of what
00:25:12
Speaker
you're, you know, some kids grow up with and what some kids don't grow up with and, and how we, a whole generation is influenced for good and for bad from, you know, social media platforms yeah of of which I'm an early proponent, you know, and, and participant of.
00:25:26
Speaker
um And now I'm, I'm also contemplating and we'll get into this, you know, more later, but you know, how, how AI is going to, you know affect his life. what what I mean, I can't even predict what what school or education even looks like for him or anybody five years from now at the moment.
AI and Its Future in Education
00:25:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's it's both... I think it's liberating in many ways in that if somebody doesn't want to you know shell out a zillion dollars to go to college, which, I mean, i have my opinions on I guess higher education and the what I appreciate certainly in some university circles as ah price gouging, you now have this option of the world's best ah professor slash tutor ah who who is you know insanely patient and meets you where you're at in terms of level and then can move you forward.
00:26:27
Speaker
uh that's incredibly liberating i think that that is you know i tend to be an optimist certainly with technology otherwise i wouldn't be doing what i'm doing uh but um you know there's there's definitely especially with regards to social media and its interface with ai i think you know i'm sure you've appreciated this that the ah you know things have gotten kind of more cluttered, number one, everyone's got an image with their post and it's, you know, some AI generated image. And, you know, I get it. Like you're almost crazy if you don't, because, you know, if you don't have an image with your post, there's no engagement.
00:27:06
Speaker
That's pretty clear. um And, and everyone all of a sudden is, you know, Bill Shakespeare of the writing department. And so it's just like, you know, ah and so I think,
00:27:18
Speaker
You know, it's pro-con. The question is, um you know, and I think this is a very sort of profound thing is that ultimately is so is it a ah you know, ah shot in the foot of social media? In other words, yeah, everyone's kind of going through and scrolling, but no one's reading anything and because no one's writing it either, you know? so Yeah. Well, what's interesting is, and I don't want to go too far down ai until we kind of, you know, backtrack and but a bit.
00:27:48
Speaker
But um you know just on those points about you know writing stuff yourself or not, and 10 years ago, or maybe even longer than that, well, in the early days of social media, you know I started seeing you know young people coming out of college, you know and then texting was taking off big time.
00:28:08
Speaker
And so how people were were writing was very abbreviated. But I also saw that translated into people's professional um writing and their emails and how they would address people at work. or or you know and And a lot of time it wouldn't come across professional if you've got lots of misspellings or your grammar is really off and right and you're not checking it.
00:28:29
Speaker
Lazy shortcuts and so forth. yeah But now you have AI that can clean it all up for you. Right. So there there is, i think, i mean, there is real concern. I do wonder whether, you know, with the advent of it's really, I mean, maybe for any any subject, but just starting with with reading and writing um while reading.
00:28:51
Speaker
Well, no, I mean, know, the AI could read it out to you if you wanted to, but, you know, there is going to be, I'm a concern. There's a whole generation that's going to lose the art of of just, ah you know, spelling and grammar.
00:29:03
Speaker
Yeah. And I think even more deeply it's synthesis, right? You know, coming up with your sort of ah thesis for something, right. As opposed to, ah you know, a sort of half cooked broken sentence that you feed to a language model and, you know, asks you questions and you say yes or no or whatever, right.
00:29:29
Speaker
And, you know, what comes out is is very eloquent and beautiful and blah, blah, blah. But it's also, you know, ah it's there's something where the concern is basically lack of complete thoughts by humans, you know.
00:29:47
Speaker
And I think that that's, um ah you know, the jury's still out, obviously. But, you know, that's, I guess, a potential negative. I think the other side of this coin is that
00:30:01
Speaker
throughout history, whenever, you know, ah when, whenever something new like this has come out, you can, you can see similar sentiments about this new thing, you know, going to destroy X, y or Z. And maybe it did, or maybe it didn't, but ah in almost all cases, um it wasn't the, the sort of ah beginning of a snowball effect for, you know,
00:30:27
Speaker
de-evolving, you know, our intelligence. um I think we're kind of plateaued right now, frankly, for the past two or three decades. But, um i you know, I think it's pretty palpable right now that, you know, AI is something that is it is a species-changing technology. And, you know, there's going to be all sorts of profound effects By the way, it's very interesting to some of these more recent models.
00:31:01
Speaker
And this is a short digression, but now run like one bit model run like on an old laptop. And so fundamentally, what that means is that, you know, we could have had similar technology 20 years ago.
00:31:18
Speaker
You know, obviously, it took ah today's technology uh um you know sort of brute force you know i guess chat gpt 3.5 uh you know to get it you know because that was the thing that really kind of broke the door open um but you know i've been working with machine learning computer vision and ai um deeply since probably about 2017 2018 and um and
00:31:51
Speaker
it's ah it's really and It's really crazy to think about that this could have been around back then. I mean, who knows where we would be as a species today if you know instead of Windows 95, it was ChatGPT.
00:32:03
Speaker
Well, yeah. Well, back even though back in 95, though, you know and maybe a little bit before, you or maybe you remember this, maybe in high school, but I mean, there was you know Dragon Dictation was probably one of the earliest you know and and commercial you know uses of AI.
00:32:19
Speaker
um And I don't, you know, it never, it never kind of got to, um you know, saturation commercial success, but it did have it its niche market. So let's, let's, let's come back. um So back to Clemson, you know, two years ah undergrad engineering, computer engineering, and then, and then what happened?
00:32:41
Speaker
Yeah, so I just, I mean, i kind of realized, mean, first of all, i mean, the classes were not easy. I did well, but the classes were not easy. And, you know, i definitely, ah you know, i like to have fun.
00:32:57
Speaker
And so um it was partially... uh out of interest i like economics and and and and finance was something that uh you know had a ah heavy economics component at least at the business school there at the time and you know i i really just didn't want the i mean there really wasn't a solid reason other than you know i didn't want to work as hard at the time which is not like me at all really
00:33:28
Speaker
um And, you know, that sort of mid-20s, you know. you went You went to take full advantage of the college experience. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, it's it's a combination of laziness, you know, wanting to go out and have fun and, ah you know, very short-sighted ah thinking.
00:33:48
Speaker
Although, frankly, ah I'm glad because i don't think I would have ended up as an engineer. have... i have but Some engineer like tendencies, you know, that you know this, that I'm technical, I'm, you know, technically savvy and all of that, but I'm not an engineer by any stretch the imagination. And I'm pretty sure i would be ostracized off the island if I was, you know,
00:34:15
Speaker
trying to you know live in that camp. well you know i'm I'm not sure about about that necessarily. and you know what What I realized, i i didn't kind of appreciate it until maybe you know five or six years out of being out of college, was that you know there was kind of a... but Because I didn't i actually you know graduated you know, kind of hating engineering and, um and, you know, and most of my skills were, were, you know computer, ah you know, involved anyway, just, just from growing up on that stuff and doing that when I was young as well.
00:34:51
Speaker
um But I, I didn't appreciate the, um the problem solving skills that, that the four years of engineering kind of did innately, kind of help instill.
00:35:02
Speaker
um and i didn't I didn't appreciate that so much until I was working with with other professionals and kind of seeing the way they attack problems or, you know, and just in a logical, you know, kind of sense. So, um and and everything I've seen so far and and working with you is, you know, you're a pretty logical thinker um and problem solver. So I don't think there's a I don't think you have to worry about that group.
00:35:26
Speaker
Um, not, not, I'm not speaking for all the engineers of the world, you know, just, just myself and, and yeah, I guess what that' me yeah, I appreciate that. I think, I think what I'm really getting at when I say that is that,
00:35:40
Speaker
um i definitely have a creative side and I, um, am okay with being flexible. I don't think I have,
00:35:53
Speaker
I have the rigor, but I don't have the rigidity. I think that, you know, I mean, somebody who is self-identified. You did go to medical school at some point though, right?
00:36:04
Speaker
That's right. Well, that's the rigor, but not the rigidity because medicine, the practice of medicine and healthcare care is an art. I mean, you know, like it or not. Um, it's It's a very exciting time for that skill set, especially if... Well, let's finish this story. what did you had what did you graduate with at Clemson then?
00:36:24
Speaker
yeah So I graduated... Yeah, I graduated from Clemson with a degree in finance. and Okay. after So you were nowhere like pre-med preparing. I had already had my prerequisite ah classes for... um for medical school done by the end of so it was kind of already in the back of my head. And and frankly, i think that's probably the thing that made me okay with, you know, ah doing something that I ah didn't have a ton of passion for her ah in finance, but ah that i I kind of in the back of my head,
00:37:05
Speaker
ah knew that um medical school was like, if I was going to go the further education route, that's what I was going to do, ah or at least try to And so, um you know, that was the other piece that made a decision. So did you get that choice right after graduation or around that time?
00:37:26
Speaker
ah Well, no, i mean I mean, I made that decision to to go into finance, uh, Towards the latter half of sophomore year. No, no. when When did, at what point did you make the decision go to medical school?
00:37:39
Speaker
Oh yeah. So, so I graduated with finance. I got a job in finance as an analyst. Goldman Sachs. No, it was a, it was a. Do do do we treat him in hell?
00:37:55
Speaker
I'm sorry. Sorry. That's an old Dewey, Cheatham and Howe. It's a ah famous firm from the Three Stooges. Oh, okay. Before your time. Did you get it? Dewey, Cheatham and Howe?
00:38:09
Speaker
Oh yeah. Got it.
00:38:12
Speaker
um But yeah, no, I got a, I got a analyst position at a power infrastructure company. It was nothing glamorous, but it was, you know, ah certainly at the time, a great salary.
00:38:25
Speaker
ah And, you know, the bulk of the work was in front of Microsoft Excel for a huge portion of the day. And I absolutely hated it. ah And i I didn't last six months. I know that.
00:38:38
Speaker
I resigned after, i think, four and a half, five months. And at that point, I knew I wanted to go to medical school, but it was too late for the following year.
00:38:50
Speaker
So I was already looking at essentially... better part of a two year period before I could start because I hadn't taken my MCAT or any of that. So what i did for the remainder of that year was, and this was something I'm so grateful I had the chance to do. i This was about four or five months in that calendar year.
00:39:13
Speaker
that were left. And I basically got into my little stick shift Honda Civic and ah drove across the country, stayed with friends. Most of them I got to know at Clemson, who lived across the country, and went to the national parks, stayed with friends along the way,
00:39:35
Speaker
Uh, and you know, it was a really wonderful, ah you know, experience. I grew a lot, uh, you know, those several months and, uh, yeah, yeah, was really wonderful. You had your, your gap year or so.
00:39:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, and then what I did, uh, for the following year is, and this is crazy. I don't recommend anyone try this is um, and I, you know, i was kind of out of my, you know, lazy go party phase and I was, you know, ah ready to, you know, see what I could do. And so I, ah I got another undergraduate degree in chemistry.
00:40:16
Speaker
at University of Buffalo. And that's where I met my wonderful wife. ah But I crammed that as well as the MCATs into one year. So, wow yeah. How many credit i mean credits was that in one year?
00:40:31
Speaker
It was a full course load, perhaps even a little bit more on top of that. And it was like 18 credits a semester. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. and And it was almost all chemistry. and There was a couple. of i took judo as well, like, you know, a couple of obligatory electives. But I crammed all of that. You still do judo?
00:40:52
Speaker
it's No, I don't. But yeah, no, I ah and I graduated with the highest distinction. I think I had the highest grade point at UB in chemistry for that year, which is kind of hilarious because I was kind of a you know, ah ah mercenary coming in from another university in some sense.
00:41:14
Speaker
So, ah yeah. And so that, you know, really what it, in retrospect, I think what that really made me realize is that, you know, i could, I could really, if I really applied myself, I could, you know, at least try to do something ah remarkable and um I think that's really what kind pushed me forward.
00:41:40
Speaker
i think i think that's I think that's really good. um i mean, because, i mean, just, you know, for myself, um you know, finishing engineering was, i think you know, the hardest, you know, thing I'd ever done academically. um And, yeah you know, and there were, you know, other stuff going on in my life during that period that made it harder as well. But but after doing that, I did feel,
00:42:04
Speaker
as well. But, you know, if I put my mind to it and if I wanted something really badly enough, you know, I could i could get it done. Right. So, and and it is a confidence boo you know builder.
00:42:16
Speaker
um so So where did you end up going to medical school? I went to medical school at Syracuse, SUNY Upstate. Orange, man. Got it. Yeah, right. Yeah. it's it's So historically, i mean, it's literally attached to Syracuse University.
00:42:32
Speaker
At some point in the past, I don't know when it occurred, but ah basically Syracuse University – you know i don't know what the transaction was, but they gave it to the State University of ah of of New York.
00:42:47
Speaker
So it's technically – yeah. and so So reasonably affordable? Yeah. No, it was a screaming deal. And the places I get in for medical school, it wasn't even – there wasn't much thinking that went into that. It was a total no-brainer.
00:43:03
Speaker
Um, uh, actually that's where I met, uh, the co-founder of Y health Rahul Patel, who, you know, uh, and, uh, you know, he went on to become an emergency medicine physician and I went on to become an anesthesiologist.
00:43:18
Speaker
So, so, ah ah five years medical school, how many, uh, or four plus readiness residency. Yeah. Right. So medical school is four years. And then residency, I went to the Cleveland Clinic for residency.
00:43:31
Speaker
And that was another four years. So it was another eight years. Yep. um ah So what year did you graduate medical school, that the the four years? 2011. 2011. So after after the financial crash.
00:43:48
Speaker
Yes. So you didn't have to live through that so much. Yeah. So that was an interesting time. We had just, i you know, I think it was toward the, I don't know when it was really all like, you know, there was a couple of weeks there where it was hitting the fan.
00:44:07
Speaker
And I remember distinctly. and did you get married during this time or not till after medical school? After medical school. i And, you know this is very typical for people that go into medicine.
00:44:22
Speaker
is you have these stupidly narrow periods of time where you have to cram in all of life's events. So when I finished medical school, ah between medical school and residency, moving to Cleveland, I graduated medical school. This is a two-week period of time. I graduated medical school, got married, closed down a new house, and started a new job in two weeks.
00:44:47
Speaker
So, you know, that's like, you know, that's the sort of thing that's relatively common for people that are in medicine, because, you know, the, the alternative is, and and I think they've gotten a little bit better about this, but certainly, you know, back then, you know, a decade and a half ago, it was, you know, almost two decades now, I guess, um was, you know, you can, like, your only option is to basically, like,
00:45:16
Speaker
punt out your graduation by a semester. Like that's the best you could have done. You know, so like no one was showing up late, you know what I mean? And, you know, they're, they and they still are very competitive spots. And so, you know, no one wants to lose their spot and this and that. So i yeah, that was a, that was a fun couple of weeks for sure.
00:45:37
Speaker
Okay. So, so picking up again, where we left off. um So you, during a two week period, you, you got, you graduated, you got married. You closed on a on a house ah all in Cleveland, I'm guessing.
00:45:50
Speaker
Yep. um And so when you started at ah did you did you, had you already decided on anesthesiology when you got to Cleveland or or was that a little bit later?
00:46:01
Speaker
ah Yeah, no, you have to you have to pretty much guess. I mean, you have to decide before you apply to residency. So so what what was so so what made you decide on anesthesiology?
00:46:15
Speaker
Yeah, so it was partially ah due to you know, you kind of have your short list that you make in medical school. And that list is, you know, some of it's serendipity. Who did you shadow with? Then, you know, you like somebody who was a mentor and you thought that what they did was cool.
00:46:34
Speaker
Or maybe it was the actual clinical work at least what little slice you could appreciate as a medical student. and Um, and, ah for me, it was, i it was a little bit of that, but it was also, ah you know, ah knowing where my sort of subject matter interests were.
00:46:55
Speaker
and I had a strong interest in physiology. I still do. um and, ah and neurophysiology, ah and, pharmacology, and really,
00:47:10
Speaker
I did not want to be ultra focused on one organ system. And so that, ah you know, and then there's other aspects. so So focusing on the brain would have been just, just too isolating.
00:47:25
Speaker
I think so for me. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, i think I really, i look at the body The brain is, you know, you, right?
00:47:36
Speaker
And ah if you, if, and and this is actually a little sort of pearl for, for anyone who's listening ah ah that can really help center your thinking on biology and physiology in general is that if you, and I'm not saying that this is, is the fact in reality, but it certainly gets you to a lot of right answers. Right.
00:48:02
Speaker
And that's, you know, if you think about the body as, you know, something that is meant to ah provide the brain with inputs and outputs and and and energy and waste removal, then, ah you know, you're probably going to get a lot of right answers if you can, you know sort of ah synthesize that bigger picture.
00:48:29
Speaker
Um, because that's really how it works. Um, and it goes all the way down to, ah you know, autochrome hormones and, uh, you know, um ah biochemicals and, and, and mediators and things.
00:48:46
Speaker
Everything is, ah meant to provide the brain with inputs and outputs, provide the brain with energy, essentially support the brain's life.
00:48:59
Speaker
Um, and, uh, you know, that was something that was very fascinating to me. Uh, and so i really didn't want to, you know, be a neurologist, uh, although, you know, uh, I do, obviously have a, uh, a strong interest in, in neuroscience and in neurophysiology.
00:49:20
Speaker
um and, and I think, uh, it's been really fun over the past few years seeing, you know, correlates, let's just say, of, you know, essentially neuroanatomical substructures, like, you know, ah Broca's area of the brain, and have some sort of, and I'm speaking very loosely here, but some sort of machine learning, artificial intelligence correlate, in that case, text to speech.
00:49:50
Speaker
you know, and we're Nikki's area, you know, ah speech to text or, or let's just say natural language processing for perhaps to be little bit more accurate. I'm still, I'm still trying to wrap my head around understanding how, how some of the, how the LMMs are designed as neural networks um and, and that similarity to, you know, designed as far as neural networks within the brain. I'm i'm still,
00:50:19
Speaker
grasping with that a little bit. Right. Right. It is a, it's a, it's a mind blowing thing. I mean, i had a, a basic understanding of that. You know, what's, you know, it's even my more mind blowing in my, you know, as far as AI is concerned is that so many of the researchers and the, and the ones that are building the systems don't,
00:50:41
Speaker
have a clear understanding how they work. And and for me, you know having you know being an engineer and and coming from you know early programming games of ah BASIC and Pascal and things like that, you know you you understood exactly you what what the code was doing and and so forth. so it's it's um i'm So I'm still even struggling just to understand, well, how can you not understand what it's doing or how it's working and getting to these answers? And that that is just a ah fascinating space at the moment.
00:51:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, there's a fuzzy nature to it, you know, it's like the difference between, or, you know, kind of relates to deterministic systems or stochastic systems and things like that. And, um, you know, things that are, you know, precise calculations versus things that are probabilities, you know, it's, uh, you know, same thing can be said for, you know i a computer chip that is like a bunch of logic gates versus a quantum chip, right? It's just, they're just kind of different realms.
00:51:43
Speaker
And, uh, You know, it's it's it's really turning so many things on their head. I think, you know, even some of these sort of legacy ways of thinking about science in general, um you know, there was a saying i distinctly remember when I was in residency, you know, of course, I always had ideas and things that I was trying to put forward and, you know, get people to, you know, champion for you know projects and things.
00:52:13
Speaker
And, ah you know, one of the one of the sort of, i guess, failure to launch projects was, and I don't at all blame them because I was a an intern in the anesthesiology and I wrote up this long proposal for single nucleotide polymorphisms and how it could ah influence, you know, ah differences in responses to anesthetics.
00:52:41
Speaker
And, ah you know, they they were very kind. They said it was always very well written. But, you know, looking back on it, I remember distinctly there was this conversation with one individual who basically said, you know, no one's going to pay you to go on a fishing expedition.
00:52:59
Speaker
And, you know, at the time he was absolutely correct. but you know I thought that's what research was all about. Well, and that's just it. It's like in some sense that is what it is all about. But it's – the difference here in my opinion is that they what he was saying wasn't necessarily incompatible with that. What he was saying was you know you have essentially the null hypothesis and then you have you know the alternative.
00:53:31
Speaker
And so rather than looking at things holistically or taking a more holistic approach, which is certainly, I think, in my opinion, what large language models do or transformers in general, one of the sort of fundamental technologies that comprise ah language models.
00:53:49
Speaker
I think that, ah you know, ah the the way of thinking about it certainly then was, you know, not holistic, it was move the science for one notch.
00:54:00
Speaker
ah and And that's certainly true today, but in the sense that the way to get there, ah you know, was to, you know, take something that was very complex. And, you know, rather than looking at things holistically, it was, you know, look at just this one single nucleotide polymorphism.
00:54:22
Speaker
And, you know, the alternative hypothesis is, you know, a change in this SNP is going to cause some different response in anesthetics. And that, you know, of course, I think that way of thinking, certainly in with regards to biology and omics, if you will, I think ah kind of got ah blown out of the water and stomped on, ah you know, several years ago with AlphaFold and you know, essentially you know sequencing the human proteome in a weekend. Right. So it's like, you know, I mean, well well, let me, well, let me ask you one quick thing and then let's come back to Cleveland clinic in terms of your timeline.
00:55:06
Speaker
Um, you know There's been a ah few um you know blog posts coming out from some of you know that the you know larger talking heads in the AI community, some some you know from you know yeah nuanced by some of the founders of some the AI companies that um you know that that disease is going to be solved because of AI in 10 years.
00:55:35
Speaker
um I don't know if you've you've heard some of these things or come across them as well, but you know just just off the cuff, I mean, do you, and and from what you you've learned working in AI in the in the time that you have and where we are at this moment, do you feel like those those are hyperbole statements and and just you know more more smoke that it's the same thing we heard 10 years ago and 20 years before that?
00:55:58
Speaker
do you see
00:56:01
Speaker
Do you see that this you know as a very, very possible outcome because of of of the ah the power that the systems have and are gaining? Yeah. And so, you know, that and I think that's what's different this time around. I mean, is that, you know, is it possible? I think even just that alone, right? That it's technically possible to start to be able to, you know, contemplate grandiose things like that.
00:56:30
Speaker
ah you know, is, is something. And, and I, and I do, I think it, you know, it's within the realm of possibility. Let's put it that way. I think. um I mean, if quantum computers do come online in the next five to 10 years and, you know, they're able to solve the problems that traditional computers would take, you know, 10,000 years to solve, then, then I would, I can see, see that as real, real possibility. I'm not sure if our,
00:56:58
Speaker
it'll be and It'll be interesting to see whether without that new um computing capability, if we can achieve those things on the on the standard systems that we have. Yeah, and I'm not so sure that quantum is even required.
00:57:13
Speaker
um And that's just because the existing, let's just say, ah machine learning and artificial intelligence ah methodologies that are kind of on an artist's palette right now,
00:57:28
Speaker
are such that, ah you know, I mean, AlphaFold never stopped. They did, I think, AlphaFold 3 is the most recent. And, you know, each time it comes out, it's like, you know, we're looking at isomers and we're looking at, you know, ah variations and we're looking at its interaction with everything else and so on and so forth.
00:57:48
Speaker
I do think ultimately would, you know, would something like quantum computing accelerate that timeline? I think absolutely. Absolutely. ah and And really, ultimately, what it comes down to if I had to speculate, would be, you know, the the internal workings of the cell, of a of a eukaryotic cell, are extremely crowded. i mean, it's a very crowded environment, right? And so you have...
00:58:15
Speaker
a lot of different i mean you know it's it's common in torque so in other words you know you have two things in a network okay well there's only one connection that can be made you have three things and then you know it's just this exponential rise right and so you have however many different chemicals within a ah cell And all of them can interact with each other, hypothetically.
00:58:40
Speaker
And so that's ah that's a massive number of possible combinations just in one cell. and then you know And then you start to think about, okay, well, what about all of the possible mutations that could lead to uh, variations within all of those different chemicals within that cell. And so that, you know, it just becomes exponential very quickly.
00:59:00
Speaker
However, that does not like, you know, that speaks to what I think of the acceleration would be is, is doing those combinatorics, you know, that are frankly impossible right now, for like our sort of current state of the art compute.
00:59:19
Speaker
Uh, but, um, I don't know that that is necessary in the in the strictest sense, because, you know, we've had all of these methodologies that even before the advent of AI have got us some pretty amazing drugs.
00:59:35
Speaker
And, you know, there is there's a lot of really elegant things that people do to um you essentially essentially do something akin to dimensionality reduction. In other words, you're not, you know, this 99 point whatever percent of things just don't matter. So we're going to focus on these things.
00:59:57
Speaker
You know, this ah this biochemical, its structure looks like it could possibly fit or interact with these just based on shape or electrostatic forces, whatever it may be.
01:00:10
Speaker
And so you can really ah do things that are, um you know, there's there's a bunch of different things that you can do to kind of reduce the overall number of possibilities. But ah it is wild, just to bring it back to that point, it is wild to think about that that's like, you know, you're I don't think that you're a quack at this day and age to if if if if so if someone came out and said, you know, and and like you said, these are people that are well respected voices saying this. It's not, you know, ah somebody on 4 a.m. m infomercial saying this.
01:00:49
Speaker
And so ah i tend to agree. I think it is possible. It's a very exciting time. ah i think fundamentally, though, what the biggest sort of fork in the road will be is, you know, will AI lead to abundance for everyone or will it be, you know, essentially, you know, well, that's more garbage. That's a whole separate discussion. so let's, let's, let's table that one for now. Yeah. Let's, let's, let's go back to, ah to your your residency at Cleveland clinic.
01:01:27
Speaker
And, um when After you graduated medical school, you know did you have the the itching to start a company? I mean, is that something you'd always thought about growing up or or other times running a business? or Yeah.
01:01:43
Speaker
Or is it something that, and I mean, I think, you know, Cleveland Clinic, you know, by itself has a very entrepreneurial spirit. So I wouldn't be surprised if, if that, you know, kind of instilled quite a bit of itself while you were there. Yeah.
01:01:56
Speaker
That pumped gas into it for sure. i mean, I, I had always been, i mean, my first entrepreneur offer, it was an elementary school. My friend and i ah made a video game cheat code book.
01:02:10
Speaker
So it was book with all the cheat codes in it you know for like – What system was this for? was like Nintendo, Sega. Sega was the main thing. Sega Genesis was the main thing. Sega Genesis. Okay. I've had every i've had every system. so Yeah.
01:02:25
Speaker
And I think we sold like five or six copies. you know But it was it was a fun thing. yeah We made anything – That's about on track with – actually, I think that's better than the book at the moment. No. Sorry. But yeah, so then, ah you know, that was my first. But then, I mean, honestly, where it really kind of the light bulb really went off is when I was building computers and selling them in high school, because, you know, at the time I could build a great computer.
01:02:50
Speaker
Everyone was winning. The person buying it was getting a much better computer than that what they would pay for. i was making $500 something. It probably took me, you know, what per per machine.
01:03:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah so you you didn't see the opportunity to scale that up. ah You know, i I don't think I was thinking like that. and And honestly, you know, I that's, that's pretty, that's a good mark markup.
01:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, no, exactly. And I mean, that was, and again, this is the time of gas was about a dollar, you know? And so it was like, you know, everything, 16. Also for a product that's commoditized.
01:03:27
Speaker
Right. Right. But, you know, you were really pulling the wool over people's eyes and jacking the price up on them. Yeah, I don't know. In my opinion, they were great computers. I mean, the thing was, you got to remember, in all seriousness, late 90s computers were expensive. Good ones were.
01:03:46
Speaker
Yeah. i mean, you get twenty twenty five hundred, I think, would be average then. Right. Right. And and at the time you could buy the components for. 1500 and sell it you know for two.
01:03:57
Speaker
That's true. So there was there was enough wiggle room there for- Oh man, do I do i miss do i miss the computer shopper? Yeah. you you do you ever yeah know that being That was like the tomb in the Bible of being able to find components and and you know cheap cheap PCs and everything.
01:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. There's a couple of little- Newspaper kind of you know large format. I don't know if you remember it, but- yeah Yeah, okay. Got it. No, I was thinking of a couple of different websites I used to use back in the data-fine. This was actually a printed product. Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:32
Speaker
Wow. But yeah, so at the Cleveland Clinic, I, you know, ah you're you're absolutely right. I mean, it's it's it's an innovative spirit that's definitely deeply wired in their DNA there.
01:04:45
Speaker
And it's it's quite contagious. I mean, you know, for anyone who has ah ah predisposition, um because, you know, there's, they have, they actually have a program where even an attending physician there, if they want to, you come up with some IP and, you know, submit a patent, etc.
01:05:10
Speaker
They will actually, or at least at the time I was there, i'm sure they're probably continuing it. It's a great program. They would ah pay for all of those fees, which are not trivial. And and then, you know, market it for you. And, uh, I mean, they've got, I think they have their own VC venture arm at this point. So yeah, they do. Yeah. No, they, they did it when I was there as well.
01:05:31
Speaker
And, uh, they would give the inventors 40% of the, of the, you know, bounty essentially, which is, which is enormous. I mean, for, you know, I mean, most places, you know,
01:05:42
Speaker
it's thank you very much. And, you know, you're lucky to eat anything so that it actually really creates a, ah you know, an atmosphere where people are constantly thinking about like, you know, how can we make this better?
01:05:54
Speaker
How can we, you know, fix this problem and procedures? What is a good device to handle this problem, etc. And so it's really, ah you know, it's really cool. ah And actually, while I was there,
01:06:06
Speaker
ah I invented a device for the collection and destruction of controlled substance waste. ah And the Cleveland Clinic still owns it to today. and we – Was this a a physical product or or a process? Yes.
01:06:24
Speaker
i think I think the IP covers both, um a method as well as a ah device. So the the destruction of bio-waste?
01:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, collection and destruction of controlled substance waste. So so like how do you destroy a controlled substance? Yeah, so, well, so ah there was actually- You flush it down the toilet?
01:06:48
Speaker
Well, yeah, no. So, so this is it then it ah ends up in the water stream and we all have it right now. Well, you're, you're, you're hot on the trail. So here's what the situation was then. And I, you know, as far as I know ah may still be the the situation to some extent, but at the time um the DEA and the EPA had conflicting rules.
01:07:11
Speaker
So in other words, the DEA, a essentially was saying, you know, flush it flush it down the drain. But each time you did that, it was however many thousand dollars, $50,000, I forgot the exact dollar value, EPA violation.
01:07:27
Speaker
And if you followed the EPA rules, then you were breaking the DEA rules. And so, you know, the- So we should be we should be very supportive of this of this get rid of regulation phase we're in right now.
01:07:41
Speaker
you know i You don't have to answer that necessarily. but well i Well, no, I think we should be very supportive of optimize the regulatory schema you know because I think that – I will tell you I'm i'm very impressed with with Lee Zeldin so far.
01:07:58
Speaker
um yeah He is a very kind of straight shooter – um and doesn't you know use hyperbole when he talks um and uh so i'm i'm i think he was a but good pick so far i think for the epa yeah and you know i think um you know with regards to just coming back to that point about um that we were mentioning earlier about you know uh the the sort of conflicting regulatory schema i think that um
01:08:32
Speaker
it's It's not necessarily, you know, hack and slash, but, you know, there's a lot of that. So, and you know, that's actually a great i model for business ideas is, you know, but because there's a lot of problems buried in the and the conflicting regulations.
01:08:54
Speaker
And so, ah you know, that was a generous... A path I didn't... A direction I didn't want to go down this conversation. Maybe we'll we'll save it for another another time. But when you were talking about the... um Well, how how we've we've created some amazing drugs to date um based on, you know... Yes. Prior research. But well I think most of those... is i you know correct me if I'm wrong, but you know probably a 20, 25 year cycle before they got to market. Right.
01:09:23
Speaker
Right. Well, and that's, and that puts a bookmark on our earlier point about, you know, whatever, eradicating all disease and so on and so forth. I don't think, I don't think the bottleneck, frankly, at this point is technical or engineering in nature.
01:09:39
Speaker
In other words, I think it's regulatory and I think ah it's this the speed at which the regulatory pipeline flows forward. ah And I'm not at all suggesting, I mean, I think that, you know, ah regulatory bodies, FDA being one great example, have a fantastic mission. They, you know, keep people safe.
01:10:03
Speaker
ah there's There's a lot of great work that these folks do. and And they, frankly, are operating within the, you know, the constraints put forward by Congress and so forth, or or the executive branch.
01:10:16
Speaker
ah But I will say that I think that the biggest constraint on that, your your hypothetical question about, you know, will we, you know, can we, or do you think that that's possible for eradicating disease in whatever you said, 15 years or 20 years?
01:10:29
Speaker
ah I think that it's more of a question of, ah the the the sort of throughput of the regulatory pipeline.
01:10:40
Speaker
Well, let's not try to solve that today. you know maybe know maybe but I just wanted to bookmark that. Maybe we can get our pay on the next call. Yeah, but I mean, I think I just wanted bookmark that. it is a real issue. I mean, and yeah, and yeah yeah right let's let's let's on we we could go down that path, but let's delay it for now. So, okay.
01:11:01
Speaker
So take me through... um Did you start Y Health while you were in residency or or you finished residency and then there was a um ah a decision point?
01:11:12
Speaker
Yeah. So um the the work with ah the device to collect controlled. oh right. and So you built that while you were in Cleveland. and then Yeah. And they didn't give you 40%.
01:11:23
Speaker
ah No, me and the co-inventor have some claim to ownership to it. What happened was there was at the same time, there was another device.
01:11:36
Speaker
i And for any listeners that are in healthcare, care you probably know what the Cactus SmartSync is, but that's a big publicly traded company ah called Stericycle.
01:11:48
Speaker
ah Literally the same timeline, like around the same time. ah Came out with the Cactus Smart Sync that – I've never heard of that. The same thing. And ah you know they are – that's where you squirt your controlled substance waste or or or pills or whatever.
01:12:07
Speaker
and And they're pretty ubiquitous now. And ultimately the story there is that, you know, great IP, a great, ah great product, a great ah use case, ah need a need, real problem that you're solving.
01:12:25
Speaker
and But, you know, it it was housed in a a multi-specialty practice model healthcare innovation unit, right? And it was competing against something that was a publicly traded company that, you know, was making haste to market.
01:12:42
Speaker
And so. um So did your your thing came out at the same time as this company had already gone? pro Approximately. Well, Stereocycle has been a publicly traded company for a long time.
01:12:53
Speaker
Okay. so So they had this, ah you know, they they they were already a well-established company with well-established, ah you know, ah clients with well-established, let's just say,
01:13:06
Speaker
distribution channels and so forth. And so, I mean, it was, you know, it it didn't matter that we were solving a problem much cheaper than it was a real problem. And there was only a couple of, you know, yet yeah potential solutions.
01:13:23
Speaker
Cleveland Clinic is still using your solution today. ah They're not using it. No, they they never used it it's it. It lives in IP. That's what it is. but now Now, is there a competitive opportunity there? I mean, it's cheaper than what the public company is offering. I mean, can you build a better mousetrap a little bit more cheaper or more cost-effective find the pain points and fix those?
01:13:52
Speaker
Well, yeah, no, I mean, i think, I think the opportunity there is just to sell the IP if, if they're interested, but I don't think that, you know, because the thing is the, that distribution channel for Sterecycle, which is essentially, you know, the, the biggest player, or at least at the time was the biggest player in ah processing and handling of medical waste, right?
01:14:20
Speaker
They have this massive infrastructure. So the startup companies, cost to compete against that is enormous. So even though they were an order of magnitude or or two, above what we you know what we sort of projected would be the price of our device, it really didn't matter because you know what platform are we gonna deliver it on and so on and so forth.
01:14:43
Speaker
So well the lot of lessons learned. When you have a healthcare system that's as expensive as it is, you know yeah everyone's looking to figure out how to save money. That's right. mean, put it this i mean i put it this way i ah felt and still somewhat feel the same way that you do about this.
01:15:04
Speaker
Uh, but, uh, you know, at some point, and it was actually years, it was at some point after I started Wellavate, which is the company that, uh, you know, uh, builds Y Health.
01:15:17
Speaker
Um, we, I just, I just had to let that, that project die because it was, yeah. I mean, it was just, you know, it's still there, they still own it, but, you know, ah you know, yeah ultimately ah they own 60% of it and, you know, you can't really, ah you know, they they're going to do what they want to do And I still think it's a valuable piece of But ah I think the main thing for me, the main takeaway, I got so many very valuable lessons out of that experience.
01:15:51
Speaker
with regards to business, with regards to IP, with regards to you know some of the nuances of what what success looks like, some of the nuances of what it takes to be successful.
01:16:04
Speaker
so So this was towards the end of your residency? about I started the project about halfway through. And yeah and then it essentially came to fruition in terms of like you know patents and so forth.
01:16:16
Speaker
around uh it was either around the end of a residency or right after okay so um so so back to your your um well i guess know when when everyone finishes the ren see there's a decision point right on where to get a full-time yes yes and that was actually that's a perfect segue because that experience really uh led me to want to uh and ah almost at all costs like the sort of prime directive of finding a job was one where i would have the freedom freedom to um to to do a startup and um you know i i uh at this point i think i was done with academia and um you know it's a long road and the other thing too is at some point for most
01:17:12
Speaker
I think most people in healthcare, care you know, at this point when I'm, when I'm quote unquote done with school or done with residency, you know, 33 years old. Right. It's like, you know, you're, you know, and so yeah you're like 45 now, right. Or something like 42, 42, 42. So not even 10. So you only finished residency 10 years ago, 10 years in July.
01:17:32
Speaker
Yeah. gen you're You're young. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So- Okay. So then, all right. Well, then then what, ah well, I guess bring me up to speed on on how Wellevae came into being or yeah what you, um and then you ended up, somehow you ended up you know from going from Cleveland to ah North Carolina.
01:17:52
Speaker
Right. so So Cleveland to North Carolina was- Where it rains a lot more. Yeah. So Cleveland of North Carolina was um really, i think the the prime thing was I knew, number one, I wanted to you know have that ability to do a startup. Number two is ah i I could be a city person or a rural person, but I found this nice town called Boone, North Carolina. That's a college town.
01:18:22
Speaker
So it's kind of a ah wonderful blend of both. Uh, it's very scenic. It's in the Appalachian mountains. It's Eastern continental divide. Uh, and so, and it reminded me, frankly, a lot of Binghamton, New York.
01:18:36
Speaker
Um, and so it's, you know, it's the Eastern, uh, deciduous forest in the mountains. So they look very similar. And so I ah got a good offer to go there and it was kind of, that was the rest is history. And then I came down here and and then started Wellevate at some point thereafter within the first year or two, within the first probably a year and a half, I think.
01:19:01
Speaker
well sure Okay. All right. Well, let's let's slow down. um so So ah yeah you've been in Boone for almost 10 years now? Correct. Correct. Okay. So where did the idea for, so you, so you moved to Boone, I guess with your wife and, and probably, probably new child or soon to be new child.
01:19:20
Speaker
yeah if i yeah if i If I've got the age, right. that's And you start your your job. um And then, and then where does the seed for Well of Eight come from?
01:19:32
Speaker
Yeah. What problem did you want to solve? Well, so it's, it's very interesting it well of a uh if you look at the word it's well wellness and innovation combined and so you know we wanted to do something i never i never got that before yeah well of it so like elevate except i mean i understand it now that you said it but yeah but that was the name of the llc and uh you know we At this point, I had reconnected with my buddy from medical school, Rahul.
01:20:06
Speaker
and ah And where was he at this time? He was in Charlotte. So that's a ah you know about an hour and a half away. So we were close enough to make this work. And you met him at oh at at medical school in Syracuse?
01:20:18
Speaker
Correct. Okay. And so we actually started doing – we've always been in digital health. um you know We started to make some digital health mobile app type ah implementation.
01:20:37
Speaker
And within the first few months, I separately with my newfound paycheck, bought a virtual reality headset literally for fun. um And i so what i so what year was that?
01:20:53
Speaker
This was. The latter half of 16, and it was a HTC Vive. HTC Vive. Okay. So, well, this actually, this just now you know and now I'm starting to see the timeline because we are we are coming upon kind of our 10-year cycle now into this current VR wave.
01:21:14
Speaker
Into the modern era. That's right. And so you finished Red and Sea just around the same time as as ah Palmer's Kickstarter, you know maybe maybe a little bit later even. A little bit later. Yeah. Because I remember ah ah one of my... It really is all about timing sometimes.
01:21:31
Speaker
It is. And so, and, you know, i had done some work as a resident ah consulting ah for companies. And you you made those cheat codes for the Super Nintendo. So you obviously like that yeah video... I'm sorry for the Sega Genesis.
01:21:47
Speaker
So you had some inclination for video games. Yeah, so I've never been a huge gamer. That's the funny thing. Okay, you just wanted to create the cheat codes. Yeah, well, you know, I think there's definitely something that's, you know, um I love technology. There's no doubt about that.
01:22:05
Speaker
but But that, it doesn't, for me, it's not, You know, i I like to play a game for like a few minutes and then I'm like, whatever. and You know, my brother, obviously, he would sit down and still does his day. He'll play, you know, and solve a game. Right. I'm not that sort of person.
01:22:22
Speaker
And so I ah grew up playing team sports, soccer. I was, you know. ah so So let me let me. um I, this is interesting. Sorry. he didn't, didn't, not to cut you off, but so what was, um, when you bought the HTC Vive, um, had, you had you tried VR before that headset?
01:22:44
Speaker
No. Okay. Did you, when, when your first experience with it, was it at home or did you like try it in the store or something? ah how So the first experience was at home, and I realized after I spent – remember how clunky things were that and in that in that day. Well, well just well well share with me what the what the first thing you either played or tried was on the Vive, if you can remember.
01:23:10
Speaker
Well, yeah. I mean, this all ties together. These are the lighthouses. You had to get tripods. right. It's a whole setup. Oh, yeah. It's all wired. Yep. Yep. So, so this all ties together. So bear with me on this. so Well, cause I want to share some more story. It's all about me. That's why I'm, where I'm going with it.
01:23:28
Speaker
But well, so my first experience with VR was the HTC Vive setup experience. And let me tell you, ah to your point, you just kind of hit the nail on the head.
01:23:39
Speaker
i think I banged my head against the wall for about four hours trying to get it to work. Well, lo and behold, I realized my computer sucked at the time. Like i didn't I didn't have a graphics card. That's right. And i make the third third mission you need a running machine.
01:23:54
Speaker
Right. So then for the modest price of like $2,500 extra, dollars I got a computer eventually. So there was like this weird several month gap where I had a five. With a graphics card, with a needed graphics card that now is $200.
01:24:07
Speaker
has changed the entire world of computing. Right. That's right. That's exactly right. It's the same thing. Well, ah okay. So, so once you did get, so you got the new PC and you got, you got the setup. What can you still tell me what the first thing you played was or. Yeah. So, well, well I can tell you what the thing was that I think the very first thing I did was, um,
01:24:28
Speaker
it It came with the vibe. It was like forgotten realms or something like that. and And that turned the light on in terms of like the medium being really cool. but let but so so So let me stop you there just for a second, because I want to see if you agree with me on this idea or not. So so the HTC Vive was my first experience as well.
VR Experiences and Health Innovations
01:24:50
Speaker
um in 2016, I was trying out somebody else's um a small startup company. Actually, they're been still working in the space um and they were doing early development stuff.
01:25:02
Speaker
and um And they gave me my first experience and it was a Space Pirate. Yeah. Well, there there you go. Well, yeah. well So that was mine. Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess, so my impression was, um and and again, I'm bringing my you know, having started with an Atari 2600 in 1979 when I was nine and going through you know, and going through the Sega Genesis and, and, you know super NES and, and GameCube.
01:25:30
Speaker
um What, what was the light bulb for me and, and curious on what it was, if, it if at all for you was um even though, you know, space pirate, it was a simple game oh i know and and it was fairly, you know,
01:25:45
Speaker
ah not crude graphics, simple graphics, kind of, you know, um, metrics kind of stuff, but just, but the experience and, and the engagement and the immersion, ah i was so impressed with as it being first generation, you know, commercial that, that I felt like, Oh my God, if this is like, if this is what first generation VR is akin to first generation video games of the Atari 2600. Right.
01:26:13
Speaker
what is it going to be like in five years or a third, fourth or fifth generation hardware? Right. And so that, that's, that's what, what turned it on. So, so let me bring all of this together.
01:26:26
Speaker
So all of that experience and time when I had been in residency, doing stuff in physiology, doing consulting and digital health and wearable devices, combined with the fact that I hate technology,
01:26:38
Speaker
to work out. I don't run for fun. I always grew up playing team sports. I was, you know, but did competitive soccer and, you know, soccer was my main jam, travel team, everything else.
01:26:49
Speaker
It was pretty good shape at one point in my life. But I wanted to, you know, get a workout in and ah kind of all of these different paths converged for me.
01:27:01
Speaker
And it was maybe the second time I used VR with this now functioning setup at my place. And believe it or not, it was Space Pirate Trainer. And it was the fact that i went in there, I had a blast, I did it again.
01:27:18
Speaker
and then maybe a couple days later, i did it again. At this point, I really knew how to play the game and I was totally into it. And I found myself drenched in sweat. uh after like eight minutes loving it and you know then the that was the light bulb moment for me ah and and because i had known from all of this work i had done in the digital health and wearable devices space that there was this massive engagement problem people would purchase a fitbit or their employer would buy a pebble for them or whatever and you know the device would go in the sock drawer within six weeks and it would never come out and so
01:27:56
Speaker
ah You know, that combined with the fact that so many of the very fundamental ah issues within the healthcare care system, certainly in the United States, um you know, the big the big, highly pervasive, high cost issues, things like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, hypertension, we know how to fix them or prevent them or mitigate them.
01:28:25
Speaker
Uh, and it's super easy and it's, uh, very easily said and very difficultly done. And, that and, and that's through things like diet exercise and, you know, all the things our mothers told us.
01:28:37
Speaker
Um, and so, you know, it was, it was literally an epiphany, um, that I still remember it clear as day in my mesh, my Clemson mesh shorts, um,
01:28:49
Speaker
uh you know uh drenched in sweat and the light bulb went off and i think it was within a week then you then you ran out and you got raul and you put it on him and what was his experience right so well uh at that point well said start i don't know what you're talking about this thing's piece of shit yeah yeah yeah But yeah, no, i mean I mean, it was within a week or two. We we were, Wellavate was, you know, extended. I guess we're where I'm trying to get to, did he see the same vision that you did?
01:29:26
Speaker
ah I think he did. But that was because, you know, I had been talking his year off for a couple of weeks before he was able to come up. and try it out. and And at that point, it was very obvious.
01:29:38
Speaker
I mean, you know. So now you're really talking. now Now you talked it up. and Yeah. and and And he tried it, and it matched his expectations.
01:29:49
Speaker
Okay. now yeah And is he a video gamer? or No. I mean, he's... He's not a, he's not a gamer. He's, he is very good at video. If you're, if you're listening to this now, we're we're talking about you in the third person.
01:30:02
Speaker
Yes. We'll have him on eventually, or I'll get his view of it all at some point. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. You know, but ah you know, if he and I agree on something like ah out of the gates, usually it's right.
01:30:16
Speaker
And because we're very, very different people. And, ah you know, um there's a there's definitely a yin and yang element to our relationship. And ah it's actually worked out really well.
01:30:30
Speaker
We're great friends. And, you know, i had already known that because I had already known it for years at the time. And was talking to his year off for a couple weeks. He came out and tried it. And, you know, the rest is history in terms of where our focus was as a company.
01:30:47
Speaker
So um i i think maybe for for for time's sake, what I'm trying to decide should we go – it seems seems a little like we need more time to now talk about the last 10 years and right and and all those hosts of – opportunities and ups and downs and, and, and stuff. So um why don't, let's do this. Let's, let's close this segment session okay um with um why don't you just give a ah ah two minute brief high level about
01:31:22
Speaker
what Well of Eight is, um why health today, what you've been doing. um and also And then why don't you also give a a short plug for the book that I i edited and helped you publish.
01:31:34
Speaker
um And we'll we'll put that in in the notes for the podcast. And we'll we'll have a ah follow-up. maybe Maybe we should have Raul on this follow-up about Well of Eight. And so you guys can can argue with each other.
01:31:46
Speaker
That sounds great. So So WellEvate, the LLC, essentially evolved into what is known today as Wya Health.
01:31:58
Speaker
And ah we are a digital health company. We primarily use the medium of extended reality to build solutions that help patients. And these ah solutions fall into three categories, roughly. they are solutions that assess patients.
01:32:16
Speaker
There are solutions that help to deliver care to patients. And there are solutions that are therapeutic in nature, either or. Those are the three buckets that we generally have focused on over the last 10 or so years.
01:32:31
Speaker
And i say digital health company because my ah clarity on where things are going has has really come into place, I would say, over the past It's been quick, but but it's quite profound. And it's come into place over the past two or three months.
01:32:53
Speaker
And it's really ah you know because of that convergence. And you know as we were talking about, and as you so kindly helped me with my first book called Convergent Health,
01:33:07
Speaker
um which is about really convergence within healthcare. care And um the gist of it is it's focused on if you had a certain health issue or if you were interested in learning more about a certain health issue, what data would you want to track and why?
01:33:30
Speaker
and then what could you do about it with these data? So essentially, what are the actual data for, you know, the common things, of course, we couldn't cover the whole gamut or spectrum of human disease, but highly prevalent things, things like hypertension, diabetes, so forth.
01:33:48
Speaker
What would you want to track to either prevent, mitigate, ah or, you know, address that issue? and and And really, and as I mentioned to you previously, you know, the reason I was really pushing for it to,
01:34:06
Speaker
come out now is because, you know, actual information is really, ah you know, ah fuel that could be combined with artificial intelligence to to really make things happen.
01:34:22
Speaker
And extended reality is a key component of this because between artificial intelligence and behavior change is this massive gap. And um the the the solution is extended reality, frankly.
01:34:38
Speaker
And I can say that really bluntly and and, you know, from what I feel is a completely defensible standpoint, backwards and forwards.
01:34:50
Speaker
Because there's nothing that engages people better. ah There's no higher, let's just say non-invasive, uh medium for high bandwidth inputs and outputs to and from the human brain um and you know especially as we move forward to a world where you know there's just sort of ambient intelligence everywhere um you can either you know stay up more hours and read more you or you can ah you know
01:35:27
Speaker
you know, have sort of higher flops per second, if you will, in terms of bandwidth in and out of, you know, your conscience or, you know, your
Future of Healthcare and Policy Concerns
01:35:38
Speaker
your brain. And so ah to me, it's like so clear. And, you know, the only other thing that is akin to this is robotics.
01:35:49
Speaker
So, you know, artificial intelligence in isolation is not all that special. You really have to effectuate it or feed it with inputs and outputs.
01:36:00
Speaker
And so, um you know, that is really ah how all this comes together. And interwoven within the book is, ah you know, at the end of each chapter is a section about how extended reality ah is is a powerful medium for dealing with you know the respective organ system that is being discussed within that chapter um and you know i'll just leave it with this in terms of uh i think codifying or really articulating what is this crystallized uh notion of where we are i think you know as a space as a you know a healthcare care system
01:36:46
Speaker
And certainly, you know, where we're going and really where we've intended to go WIA Health for better part of 10 years. I mean, we haven't deviated from a roadmap at all.
01:36:57
Speaker
I'm going to read kind of from a post that I made in the last couple of days, but i it's a nice, succinct way of, I think, encapsulating, i think, both issues.
01:37:09
Speaker
where where we're going, what we're doing, and I think also where I think a lot of the space is just off the mark. So XR will disrupt healthcare care facilities from the outside in.
01:37:22
Speaker
A significant number of the value adds for patients will migrate from inside the walls of healthcare facilities onto headsets or immersive platforms. Some things will always require in-person visits, but why would anyone cancel work for a half day make an appointment, pay for parking, go wait in a stale waiting room, you know, with used copies of Redbook or whatever, when the same services can be offered to anyone at 3 a.m. m and on a whim.
01:37:53
Speaker
And so with regards to our space in general, I think if if you've pigeonholed extended reality for healthcare care into 360 videos for, you know, for the activities room,
01:38:07
Speaker
uh, or CPR practice, then you might be missing the bigger point about how this technology is going to disrupt bricks and mortar healthcare.
01:38:20
Speaker
I think that's, I think that's, uh, I think that's a great way to end. Um, I mean, i'm i'm very i' I'm happy to hear your excitement still um ah for the space and and the opportunity with the VR.
01:38:35
Speaker
as you As you were talking, i think I've become very convinced now that i'm goingnna um' I would put good money that that ah RFK has probably not tried VR yet. um or at least you know has not had an opportunity to to have an experience um such as as one as you were describing.
01:38:53
Speaker
um The other thing that that's, and we'll we'll save this for another conversation, but i I'm now, I mean, where I was very bullish and and excited to see him you know brought on, um you know um'm and now that, you it's I guess yesterday or today was the 100th day of ah the administration,
01:39:09
Speaker
um I don't know what he's doing. I don't, you know, I haven't, I don't see all except for the, ah you know, he's getting the the color dyes out of our food system, which, you know, you can't argue with and and that's a good thing. But yeah i don't I don't know what he's been doing the last hundred days and and if there's some grand vision or plan that we're waiting for and is going to come out. But I'm getting concerned that ah that there's not any direction ah or where he's taking everything.
01:39:36
Speaker
um, maybe I'm wrong. i hope I am, but, uh, uh, you know but I, it, you know, there's an opportunity not to be squandered. I'm, you know, whether he's qualified or or not is a whole different discussion, but, you know, sometimes an outsider, you know, with with or without experiences is a great way to shake things up and and take fresh look at things.
Podcast Reflection and Future Plans
01:39:57
Speaker
But, uh,
01:39:58
Speaker
But with that, um Joe, yeah I want to thank you for for actually helping me fulfill the the goal of this podcast, which is what I wanted to achieve. And um because very frankly, i would say probably 95% of what we discussed today, i had never known about you before.
01:40:19
Speaker
um And and it's it's very telling. and And just like it actually, you know, a lot of pieces and timing and things make sense now. Um, I wouldn't have had that without this discussion and without, you know, understanding a little bit more about your background, where you came from and and how you got to where you are today. But I, I do think that all those things are important in order to be able to have a, uh,
01:40:43
Speaker
have a next conversation on where you go you know with whatever it is you know people do next. um You do have to understand, I think, people's ah backgrounds and interests and but what makes them tick.
01:40:55
Speaker
And so you helped me achieve that with this second episode today, and and I appreciate it, and and you're helping me set a um ah good standard for for what I hope I can continue.
01:41:06
Speaker
um thanks for my pleasure yeah thank you Thanks for making time today. we will um yeah We'll get something on the books with Raul and I think we'll then we'll we'll have a separate story about Well of Eight by itself.
01:41:18
Speaker
um Though maybe I have to do a whole separate background on on Raul now. ah but Sounds good. Yeah, you should definitely do it. um So ah thank you again and ah thank you listeners. um And we look forward to your feedback and we'll see you next time.