Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Learner Centered Spaces podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning, sponsored by Mastery Portfolio, hosted by Star Saxton and Crystal Frommert. In each episode, we bring you an authentic conversation with educators, both in and out of the classroom, that will hopefully encourage you to try something new.
Speaker: This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces their students, schools, and districts or education at large.
Speaker: The learner-centered spaces podcast is a member of the Teach Better Podcast Network. Get ready to be inspired as we dive right into the conversation with today's guest.
Speaker: We are very excited to have Amos Vodchuk on the show today. He's president of Advanced Learning Partnerships, a leader driven by insatiable curiosity and a deep love of learning.
Speaker: He's a national board certified teacher and former hockey referee. Amos brings both precision and heart to his work, leveraging his network, platform and passion in service to educators and the communities they uplift.
Speaker: When he's not partnering with schools, you will find him trail running through forests of North Carolina or diving into his fascination with owls, a topic best avoided unless you've got a few free hours because he loves to talk about owls.
Speaker: His love of live music is as eclectic as his playlist, spanning Ethiopian jazz, American bluegrass, psychedelic country, and Lana Del Rey. Curious, grounded, and endlessly inspired,
Speaker: Amos leads with both intellect and soul. Welcome to the show, Amos. Thank you, Crystal. That's quite an introduction. i'll I'll save my passion for curling for another day. I think it's the greatest sport humanity's ever invented.
Speaker: yeah I should have put that in there, but yes, you love curling as well. No, that's okay. I kept it out. I like to be coy. Okay.
Speaker: Amos, can you please tell us um so some defining moment in your education journey or something that you're working on right now that really matters to you? Well, there's no shortage of uncertainty in the world right now. There's a lot of change in the two thousand twenty s from a once in a century pandemic that radically and abruptly forced us to adjust our instructional and learning models and all the consequences of that shift to a massive technological innovation through large language models.
Speaker: And now we're we're also really navigating the relationship that communities and schools have with each other. And so um where I feel most privileged to serve is whether it's in my day job or or my service to ah nonprofit boards. My goal, wherever I serve, is is to help communities recognize the strengths they have.
Speaker: and build on those. And so um we're working across the United States and Canada with communities that are really engaged in challenging assumptions about the way we've always learned, where we've learned and how we've learned. And so um I'm really excited to kind of unpack details around how communities are mobilizing to challenge assumptions about the high school experience, to challenge assumptions about ah summative assessment or even formative assessment and doing both of those ah in a humanistic way. So I'd love to jump into the details of what that looks like.
Speaker: I'm really glad that you went there, Amos, because i I was hoping that we would go down this road and kind of give our listeners an idea. Like when you say transforming schools and getting away from this traditional model, can you give us a little bit more insight on what exactly you're talking about in the day to day structurally, systemically? what is What do you imagine or hope for when you're doing this work?
Speaker: Well, what we plan for, because hope does not ever produce what we intend unless we really ah are disciplined and focused around how we operationalize toward those outcomes, is um we we lead with um a theory of action around organizational change. And so... The research and practice around systems level change is how we navigate the partnerships that we have with schools and school systems.
Speaker: And so really getting into the operational details and and starting with an appreciative inquiry lens. Understanding where each community is when it's at its best and what strengths enable it to be to thrive is is where we start. And so um I often watch, you know, organizational transformation efforts that start with a formula or some type of an intervention.
Speaker: I've never seen one of them work. um The organizational change is grounded in um each community's identity and working over the course of multiple consecutive years to scale innovations ah starts and ends with culture. And so literally of of the hundreds of communities that ALP works in, every one of our implementations starts at a different point. We're all working towards some common outcomes around assessment, innovation, curriculum, um redesign, and even, you know, time and space and how it's leveraged in schools.
Speaker: But every one of those partnerships is different. And um they ultimately come together in ah in a powerful community and learn from one another as much as I hope they learn with us.
Speaker: To follow up on that, Amos, like you know i know that in some schools, there's this beautiful collaboration and working together in harmony with administration and the teachers. And then and also in other schools, that is very divided.
Speaker: And I'm curious how you, when you were going into a school, how do you assess what's going on with the leadership? How do you assess the relationship between the teachers, the administrators, that that dynamic?
Speaker: Yeah, Crystal, I think that, you know, a partnership with a community and and not just the school or the school system, but the actual community. um ALP is actually two firms, one that's U.S. based and one that's Canada based. And having grown up in Canada and been educated in Canada, as well as the United States,
Speaker: I've noticed some fundamental differences in culture between the average community and the average school system. um In the United States, there's a ah much greater appetite for innovation.
Speaker: There's a much um stronger commitment to risk taking. And in Canada, there's a deeper and more interwoven relationship between the school system, local community leaders, the police, the medical support structures.
Speaker: um and And so there's there's more stability in the average Canadian community. And so the approach that we take in Canada versus the approach that we take in the United States is actually different. So if we were to focus on a conventional United States-based district,
Speaker: we we tend to We tend to shy away from organizational transformation initiatives if if the leadership at the district level isn't committed to a multi-year partnership and isn't committed to starting with the values that it claims to have. um We need to see how those values live, not just through the superintendent, cabinet, or school boards.
Speaker: um mission and vision statements, but how they actually exist in schools. And so once we're able to get a concrete understanding of the alignment between a community's values and its practices, then we're able to really identify and start to prioritize the pillars in a school or the pillars in a school district that that they really want to lean in in order to usher an innovation and in assessment.
Speaker: So one of the first um pillars that that we start with is pedagogy. And what is the power distance? What's the role between the teacher or the adult and the student or the child? And one of the first efforts that we help school systems realize ah is of paramount importance is um making that relationship more horizontal.
Speaker: and ensuring that ah the role descriptions for adults and kids are clearly defined. And and once once we understand what that looks like, pedagogy takes on an entirely different lens. And so it's not uncommon for us to spend one or a couple years ah working closely and shoulder to shoulder with teachers and coaches and principals to take ah to take risks in pedagogy and to share the air with students um and to incorporate more peer review, more peer visioning, um that doesn't that doesn't diminish the importance of a teacher. It actually operate it it it enhances it.
Speaker: That's so fascinating. i'm I'm really interested in culture. And I'm currently working in a school where there is a very highly regarded mutual respect between the faculty, staff, and the students that I really haven't experienced before.
Speaker: And there's definitely a division of hierarchy, even the teachers giving the assignments and the teachers holding you accountable. But the relationship between the two is is a very working relationship, working together toward a common goal. And I just find that really beautiful. And I don't know, how could you begin to like, what are the beginning steps to shift that culture toward that horizontal mutual respect with faculty and the students.
Speaker: Crystal, I'm fascinated by the school that you described, and i'll I'll kind of share two or three drivers that I think enable any school culture or community to to realize that level of respect. um And, you know, to me, that the three kind of critical pillars are a relative degree of stability,
Speaker: I mean, there needs to be a continuity of effort so that folks don't feel like they're reinventing the wheel or in a constant reactive posture. um As I mentioned at the outset of our conversation today, you know, the 2020s have not been conducive to that. And so ah the way to establish or reestablish stability in a school community is to simplify. One of the one of the most important um restrictive variables to learner-centered pedagogy, defining and then scaling is too many tasks in too little time. And so identifying um how we meet, what we do, and not just we as adults, but we as
Speaker: students and everyone is learners. ah If we can go through an inventory of tasks and expectations of execution around tasks, we can usually cut in half um the the processes, the protocols, the expectations um that can either be augmented through technology or can be um and of articulated into ah something a little bit more eloquent.
Speaker: ah We spend too much time running around. And so um taking things off teachers' plates, um asking ourselves what types of activities are we asking students to invest in and complete, if we're able to streamline that, that's that's a critical component to establishing stability. um I also think that a mutually upheld vision or value system around what learning can be, i know that sounds kind of touchy and feely, but if you go through the process of of enabling people to share their vision, it's almost inevitable that they arrive at some
Speaker: kind of universal ah values for what it means to be human, what it means to be a learner, what it means to be valued in those areas. in those roles. And then the third component that is key is that we have formative data. You know, if, if we're continuously assessing someone through the summative lens, we start to feel like we're under a microscope, but if we teach people how to set their own goals, um, identify, um easy, practical, sometimes unconventional data sources, um, we're able to build, uh,
Speaker: a a self-sustaining or a sense of agency around monitoring our own progress. And if we can if we can do that with some common language, we're on our way to challenging assumptions about pedagogy, which then gives way toward ah challenging assumptions around curriculum and assessment.
Speaker: So you just said so many things, Amos, that i like that certainly resonate with me and it's work that I've done as a teacher and also with schools. And what what I'm most curious about is as you're putting these vision you know envisioning opportunities together and you're trying to build a culture where these things are all possible, our listeners will probably be wondering, like what are the hurdles you sometimes endure during this work? And how do you get around them in a meaningful way so that the work can happen and the leadership understands that teachers only have so much capacity at a time? And if we want them to be really good at this one thing we're asking them to do, we can't.
Speaker: overload them with some of the other minutia and initiatives that come up when shiny things appear. Shiny things. Yeah, Star. Well, I mean, there are two stakeholders in every school that give more of themselves at the expense of um investing in their own growth, and that is school leaders, principals and assistant principals, and coaches or lead teachers. And so where where we work with communities and school systems, we try to help emphasize the importance of professional learning and specifically job embedded professional learning for school leaders um so that they have the ability to refresh themselves, ah to feel as though they're in a position of leading learning as learners and not just as managers.
Speaker: And Once we've established some ongoing and kind of goal-driven ah application-based professional learning cycles, ah then we work real hard to get out of the way because the deepest relationships that school leaders have with their teachers can't be replicated and it can't be outsourced. And so by refreshing the leadership cadences in a school, you know, how many how many PLCs ah do we run into that are that are a fraction of what they could be star, right? Like they're just people going through the motions and or um mindlessly churning through.
Speaker: um quarterly benchmark data, right? Like those should be moments of creativity, of risk taking, of discovery, of of unity. and And that can only happen when the folks who facilitate and support teachers on an everyday basis um are able to lead that way.
Speaker: So that's, oh, go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, so what's interesting, what you just said about PLCs in particular, i i work with a district in Illinois, and they are just on the very, very, very beginning of their PLC journey. Like they did their book study last year, based just starting to build a culture around this idea of meeting to build collective efficacy. And the idea of PLCs being an opportunity for creativity and real growth on so many different levels is something that I hope most schools, and I know you said before, hope is not how we get um to where we need to be. But i think a lot of schools miss the boat in that way around PLCs, and it almost becomes chore the same way that using learning targets and success criteria as a means for clarity and giving students ownership becomes something that they don't understand the purpose for.
Speaker: um if we're just doing it as ah as a means to comply with expectations as opposed to leaning into that opportunity for creativity. So I'd love for you to just talk a little bit more about Facilitating those spaces that create an opportunity where teachers really enjoy coming to those PLCs because it's an opportunity to innovate as a group as opposed to complaining about everything that's not going the way that they want them to, which is unfortunately what PLCs sometimes turn into.
Speaker: Yeah, extensions of the faculty lounge. um Yeah, but that that that's not a function of the people. That's a function of the conditions in which those people ah navigate complexity every day, right? like And i I think that one should never waste a good crisis star. And so, you know, insert the obligatory conversation about generative AI. um i I think our entire civilization was caught off guard by how quickly ah large language models came onto the scene and then
Speaker: not only did they arrive um by surprise, but they've continued to um evolve faster than human systems ever could. And so there are real real issues around cheating, real issues around cell phone usage, real issues around um you know intellectual rigor and and how it's eroding when people are using um ah AI tools to create what may be The what may be the ah the ah Oxford Dictionary word of 2025, which is work slop. But I think that that that disruption in the hands of educators and students who have some literacy around how large language models work. and how they can be applied in purposeful ways can can reduce the one variable that that keeps us kind of tinkering around the margins, which is we're spread too thin and we don't have enough time.
Speaker: Now, I'm not at a i'm not a ah evangelist for AI. I think there are at least as many risks as there are opportunities and that communities should be hyper intentional about how they build literacy and how they introduce unproven,
Speaker: um unknown tools into the learning um experience, but um people are using them and they're using them pervasively. And so, you know, I'm always attentive to school systems that that aren't just focused on implementing technology tools, but building literacy. I'm always interested in communities and schools that are focused on not just implementing technology tools, but enhancing literacy between ah adults and kids around how they might be powerfully applied to regain time and to really sharpen skills development. And to me, that's where I think we have a once in a generation opportunity to challenge ah the barrier that has always existed for teachers and kids, which is not enough time to quote unquote get into the real work. um I think another important component of ah innovative approaches to and i'm challenging some of these norms is to get people out of classrooms and out of schools and into nature and into community.
Speaker: um we're We are social beings. We are evolved animals. And when we spend too much time under fluorescent lights and too much time walking on concrete, we lose a connection to the world that is deeply connected to who we are existentially. And when we separate content knowledge from application, um schools become a fraction of what they can be. I'm a huge fan of outdoor learning experiences, internships, externships, and really um using those opportunities to create ah ah to create conditions where people can reflect on where they are in time and space.
Speaker: And that becomes ah ah an opportunity to help people understand formative assessment and how powerful it's connected to agency. Amos, is there anyone that you would like to shout out as someone who deserves recognition for helping you to shape your vision of education today?
Speaker: Oh, my gosh. Well, Socrates, I could say. I mean, not to be cheesy, but or Paolo Freire. I mean, that that's the intersection of my ah pedagogy and service lenses. um But I think if i were if I were to highlight someone alive today, it would it would actually be educators in one state and one province. um Where I see the most powerful learning happening is in communities of practice and i'm honored to be part of two large scale communities of practice, one across the Commonwealth of Virginia and a second and actually a third in the provinces of Ontario and British Columbia. And where where we have been so fortunate um in in our day job at AOP is that we're able to work with hundreds of communities in those states and provinces and to bring educators together in community and I never miss one of our community of practice events, whether they're face-to-face or virtual, because the facilitation is intentionally simple. And i um I would call out one individual just by recency bias who absolutely blew my doors off, an educator in British Columbia named Marcus Blair. He presented at ALP's Generative AI Summit for Canadian Educators in Surrey, British Columbia, a few weeks ago. And his approach ah to building literacy, common language, and culture around learning in the face of AI was astounding to me. And he is no isolated agent. I see teachers like Marcus innovating and thriving. And because his ah because his school district is so progressive and welcomes innovation from the classroom up,
Speaker: He has now become a school board leader and not just in his district, but also in his community and even his province. And so I hold up Marcus as an example of what leadership can look like in the classroom.
Speaker: Well, fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. And if our listeners would like to find you or connect with you online, do you have an online presence that you're willing to share? I'm happy to learn alongside anyone on LinkedIn.
Speaker: My name is Amos Vodchuk and My firm is Advanced Learning Partnerships or ALP. You can find us noodling about on the LinkedIn ah tubes.
Speaker: I used to be on Twitter and then it turned into something I no longer understand. So I think I still have an identity over there, but I rarely check it. And, um,
Speaker: um More than anything else, I love to be in communities. So you can find me in ah communities all across North America working with my teammates and the leaders who welcome us into their work.
Speaker: Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I look forward to talking about owls and and curling next time, Crystal and Star. We'll have a follow-up episode. think we'll get a lot of hits if we do that.
Speaker: Curling, And curling, too. well Hey, shout out to the upcoming Winter Olympics. This is where people get their taste of curling. um They have to go try it. It is an an unbelievable sport. It's one of the few sports that is authentically co-ed.
Speaker: the the The female and male um curlers are equally skilled. Yeah. You can also drink beverages while you play, which doesn't hurt. I love that, too.
Speaker: Thank you. Thanks ladies. Thank you for learning with us today. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. If you'd like any additional information from the show, check out the show notes.
Speaker: Learn more about mastery portfolio and how we support schools at mastery portfolio.com. Please sign up for our monthly newsletter for resources to support your learner centered pedagogy.
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