Transcript
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Speaker: Hello and welcome to Fit For My Age, the health and wellbeing podcast from Abbasida. I am your host, Michael Millward. Today, Carol Smaldino, the author of Vulnerability Protected and I will be exploring how and why we need to feel protected before we can be vulnerable.
Speaker: Carol is a New Yorker. It's one of those places that I have visited, but never actually got to go to Manhattan yet. If I do get the opportunity to return to New York, I will go to Manhattan. It's because I will be making my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club.
Speaker: This is because as a member of the Ultimate Travel Club, I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays and so many more travel related purchases.
Speaker: You will find a link in the description with a built-in membership discount so that just like me, you can become a member of the Ultimate Travel Club and travel at trade prices.
Speaker: Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of Fit For My Age that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. Also worth telling your friends, family and work colleagues about as well.
Speaker: Very importantly, on Fit For My Age, we don't tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Now, hello, Carol. Hello.
Speaker: I just want to add that I do live in Colorado. I wonder if we could start by you giving us a little bit of a potted history of Carol and the sorts of things that you've done and why you decided to write a book.
Speaker: Well, have a chapter in the book called What I Bring to the Table. I talk about growing up, not really feeling like I was growing up, but, you know, being in a family where there was a lot of arguing.
Speaker: I identified with a safe with being a savior and i took sides and then I was told that I just needed to understand. So I decided to be a psychologist and I played psychologist, which was one of the most creative things I did as a kid.
Speaker: I had a friend who was willing to go outside and I gave her a problem to have and she would come in and I would solve it. And I think so quickly that I would have to give her another problem. And we would do this for, i don't know, an hour or so. I wound up majoring in Italian and going to social work school and taking courses in psychotherapy, working in a residential treatment center where I was very, very challenged in the sense that I was kind of trained to be kind of sweet and kind.
Speaker: I encountered people who had been very much abused and who were abusive in turn. And speaking of vulnerability, I felt vulnerable because i really didn't know what to do because I encountered people who were just using profanities at me and waving their hands at me and...
Speaker: I kind of discovered my own anger there. It later turned into working with the shadow, which is a Carl Jung concept, which is that all the stuff we don't like, or we hate, or we fear, we put in this unconscious bubble and we hide that stuff. And then it winds up coming out when we project it onto other people and we demonize them. And actually, i never thought I would write because I had one brother who wrote and I was very intimidated. And I thought, i no, i can't. And a senior psychiatrist, kind of brilliant guy in the field, suggested I write a paper on a subject. And I did write
Speaker: And I got it published. And then I just have to say that was it's a little crazy, but I went to see a psychic. And it was kind of fun and interesting. And on my way out, she stopped me and she said, you need to sit down. it was like, why?
Speaker: She said, I just need to tell you, you have to write. And I said, well, I do, kind of clinically and she said, no, no, no. You have a flair and you need to write for people and not for clinicians. And, you know, that was music to my ears because really in my work, um, I've always identified,
Speaker: With the patient, the client, as much as with the therapist, one of the things I did not like about psychoanalytic training at the time is I didn't like the harshness of the diagnoses that I heard.
Speaker: It did not seem humanizing. In any case, I started to write articles. It just came my way. And i found I had also a need to write.
Speaker: that in writing, i was I was working through issues in my work, but also issues in my and my insides. yeah With vulnerability, actually, I heard a psychologist talking about it one day, about a couple of years ago, and she was talking about it as something very smooth.
Speaker: And i I balked at that, you know. I thought to myself, it's not smooth, it's ragged, and it's scary, and I need to write about it.
Speaker: Now you have. There you go. Great. One of the things that, listening to there, that came to mind was you mentioned being in the residential treatment center where you felt vulnerable.
Speaker: People shouting at you, profanity, shaking their fists at you, these sorts of things. And it made me wonder, We can use the word vulnerable in a physical sense, and we can use the word vulnerable in a psychological sense as well.
Speaker: It made me think, are the two exclusive? you know So you can feel physically vulnerable without feeling psychologically vulnerable or vice versa.
Speaker: What's the difference between physical and psychological vulnerability? Well, one of the things I talk about in the book, and i I think is really important, is that there are many people in our world who cannot afford to be vulnerable. They are under physical siege and attack, and sometimes they're being raped and killed and to feel vulnerable, to take that space, to to have those feelings is so risky that many people just go numb or go into fight or flight. And then and some people go into fight. So that's physical and um emotional vulnerability can be physical too, because I, you know, just to go back to,
Speaker: I'm going to go back because there's a thread here, perhaps I didn't realize until right this minute, um between the past and the present that in terms of vulnerability protected with one boy who was about 11, he taunted me so much that here goes, I pushed him out of my office. And I also had a thought, I had a thought,
Speaker: which was very frightening and made me feel vulnerable. Like I wanted to hurt him. And I thought, I need to quit. I am not good for this field.
Speaker: And then I thought, wait a minute, good that I was in therapy at the time and the therapist was okay with anger. So i was less judgmental. And what happened, what was my vulnerability protected?
Speaker: was i sat with this boy and I said, listen, i cannot compete with you. you You can make me, I owned it.
Speaker: You can make me cry. You can make me feel even crazy. You can make me push you out of a room, but I really don't want to do that. So I give up.
Speaker: I surrender. What I can do is help figure out with you why you need to do this stuff. And so in a sense, by owning that I was vulnerable, I was less vulnerable because I was also deciding, i was capable of deciding not to engage in that kind of combat with him.
Speaker: Yeah. Does this make sense? Yes, it does. It's it's almost like, I suppose, you can't control how someone behaves. But you can control how you react to their behavior.
Speaker: Can I say? And it sounds like you had one reaction that was based around your vulnerability and then another reaction when it was cooler, it was calmer, reflect more reflective, where you could say, yes, I acknowledge my vulnerability, which you imposed upon me to feel vulnerable.
Speaker: cause me to react in a particular way, but I could react and I'm going to react. And you, you sounds as if you took back control of the situation.
Speaker: Well, I, I kind of, i would say i protected my vulnerability and I also, which I didn't really realize at the moment, I, so i I connected with this person. i said, you have gotten to me You have the power to make me feel things. So in that he had so many feelings that he was ashamed of.
Speaker: I think he felt like he could connect to me more because i had gone to this deep place with him. I, I want to respond to what you said about control.
Speaker: And um I would say the bulk of this book is about navigating vulnerability, the bulk of it. um Because i feel that most people are new to it.
Speaker: Most people have masks. And they they show it as a fad or as a fashion or they don't show it at all. And I i kind of prepare people for the idea that it's messy. You know, it's messy. and And when you try to control your reactions, sometimes you just fall down and you have to practice getting up, hopefully with some help and with some emotional help that is not harsh, that says, okay, well, I messed that up.
Speaker: So let's try again. Yes. Yeah. It's such a complex issue. And like you say, it's a new issue. It's a new word that we didn't use in this sort of context ah five, 10 years ago. The word vulnerable 10 years ago would have meant someone who was weak. But from your profession's perspective, the word can also mean someone one who's very strong because they acknowledge their vulnerability. Yes. And they work out a way to manage their vulnerability.
Speaker: And part of that in the book is that you've got to be in the right environment with the right people before you think about becoming vulnerable. You shouldn't just be vulnerable with anyone and everyone.
Speaker: You've got to almost plan your vulnerability. Is that fair? Yeah, I think it's fair. I think so i think sometimes when you practice, and and I don't mean as a getting ready for a show, but when you see this as a practice and you get to know your own emotions better, they can become a signal so that you can get more ready I think what happens is when you practice, when you have practice, it's easier for you to ah be spontaneous as well. And I just want to mention that i everybody knows I'm American.
Speaker: um Even from my accent, I'm sure. so um But, you know, here in America, I mean, vulnerability is a very mixed bag. So one of the reasons I wrote the book is because so many people hate vulnerability and are scared of it.
Speaker: and still see it as weak. So, you know, we have, I'm not going to get into the political climate, but it's not great. It's really divisive. It's really polarized. And some people would say that, I mean, it's, it's ironic because it's considered weak by many people, but those same people inculcate following in a host of people.
Speaker: And it's it's it's really a question of weakness, the people who are compelled to go along with someone charismatic. But, so I thought, well, it's so hated and feared and it needs dignity.
Speaker: I really feel that without vulnerability, we cannot empathize and without empathy, we're done. yeah You know, if if you can't care about people, then the jig is up.
Speaker: say You don't want to go into the political side of things, but I'm British, I'm here in the yeah UK, it's 2026. We have in the UK seen exactly what you have described happen in British politics, where we had a prime minister who was elected with a massive majority, but was not popular because he couldn't demonstrate his empathy with the people that had voted for him.
Speaker: And so all sorts of various different things happen within the political party, which means that they then decide to have someone who may be so very, very different in all sorts of ways, will have all sorts of different strengths and weaknesses, and we are yet to see what that is going to look like. But his big strength was his ability to connect with people, to show empathy.
Speaker: doesn't necessarily mean that he will get more done but he forms a different type of relationship with the electorate than his predecessor yeah i i completely wish for that yeah it's the whole sort a thing of thing I suppose before you can really interact effectively with other people, you've got to interact with yourself and really understand what your strengths and weaknesses are and what what makes you comfortable, what makes you uncomfortable.
Speaker: possibly majority of people in the Western world don't really understand themselves as individuals because we are in such a collective society. We look for labels which attach us to other people, which means that we don't get to understand ourselves as much as we perhaps could.
Speaker: You know, i i think you're very right. And what I'm thinking so many things, but, um, i I wrote a piece for Substack, which is, I think, mostly based here. And I wrote it on radical empathy.
Speaker: And i yeah know the title was, if if I'm right, why is radical empathy so hard for me? And what it was really about was I started to think about what some people in politics are talking about, which is radical empathy, which is empathizing with people who are very different and hold very different opinions than you do. And that seemed like a a good goal. And I started to write about it. And what happened is I started to go inside myself and I started to see how vulnerable I felt and how
Speaker: how negatively i felt about some people. And I thought to myself, you know what, before i empathize with other people, I have to empathize with me.
Speaker: i mean, I have a host of feelings that the more i am open to the more i don't have to project, the more I don't have to stuff up. And yeah,
Speaker: I'm going to work on that. And I heartily agree with you that if you're going to really empathize, you can't just throw it out there because it means stepping into another's shoes. And if you don't step into your own and know them properly,
Speaker: pretty well, um then that's hard. Now, the other thing is one definition of vulnerability is when you have a response that you didn't expect.
Speaker: So, you know, we're not always able to predict, nor should we. I mean, even in this conversation with you, i don't have a script. no So I'm letting myself be open And ironically, you don't see me, but my hands are on my chest, which is very interesting. You know, they're just locked together in an easygoing way. But I think symbolically, it's it's almost as if I feel safe.
Speaker: hmm. Yeah, thank you very much. I say thank you very much because it's it's not the first time that someone has said that to me when we've been having a conversation.
Speaker: And it means so much for someone to say something like that to me, without being melodramatic or anything about it. For someone to say that they feel safe in your company, in a conversation with you, is an extremely powerful thing for someone to say.
Speaker: Well, you know, the other thing, I appreciate your comment, but the other thing is, I write about this too, i am I'm terrible at debating and I see it really as a very negative sport and I see hostile questioning, you angry questioning, angry baiting really as a place I would not feel safe and i would not want to be in.
Speaker: Yes. So, you know, I thank you. You're very welcome. Very welcome. I'm learning so much because what you're saying makes me feel safe.
Speaker: It makes me feel safe in the way that I am learning. So I've got that feeling that I am with someone who knows more about this than me. and is guiding me on on my discovery to a point where I will be able to understand it more and as a result of understanding the issue will be able to start to see myself in the context of the issue.
Speaker: And I think that's part of this whole thing where people talk about psychological safety and you have to feel safe before you can feel vulnerable. And if you feel vulnerable without feeling safe, then you're on a very dangerous journey. And I'm sort wondering about hints and tips and sort of things that, well,
Speaker: You can be vulnerable too soon. You can demonstrate vulnerability to an audience that doesn't want you to be vulnerable. They don't value it. They don't see any point to it.
Speaker: So what would be the signs that the group of people that you're leading, for example, as a manager or that you are the big brother, the big sister looking after younger siblings or cousins and the particular situation. What are the signs that someone else might display that they need you to show some sort of empathy, vulnerability to make them feel better about the situation?
Speaker: Well, one of the things that comes in handy here, and you know, it's not really, i don't use it as a technique so much, but I've used it as a practice. I feel that let's say ah parents learn to be better parents from their children.
Speaker: And therapists often learn to be better therapists from their patients. And I suppose that people who are in a company, it would be the same thing. So one of the first things I would say is that i I don't know the people in the audience and I'd like to get to know them. I'd like to get to know what they feel they're needing or what they feel they haven't gotten or what they feel they are not getting.
Speaker: And is I would try to feel out if that's a safe enough environment to ask these questions openly. I mean, or I would set up a situation where people could come to me privately and and know that um what they say is held in confidence.
Speaker: So I think it's it's also really hard, Michael, because I think we live in a culture of so many words and actually to think you need to take space So if you want people to think and you're asking me a question, you want me to think about it.
Speaker: i I need that second. i need to have i i need to have the space to think because, you know, words can cover up so much and can become a mask and vulnerability can become fashionable and authenticity can become fashionable So I can say, well, I'm authentic and I'm vulnerable and I'm here to talk about that. And I can't, I can completely be masking.
Speaker: So there is a kind of intuitive, internal, physical sense that I think people also need to,
Speaker: um to eke out a notion about whether the person that is speaking to them is safe because there's so much manipulation going on and there's so much in the media that is cult-like and charismatic and really is not about giving you the space to think.
Speaker: So I think, you know, it's interesting that you started out by saying that you don't want to tell people what to think, but you want to help get them to think. And i think, yes I think it's, it's funny that I'm saying that. I think that one of the things that's important in terms of sensing whether something is safe is whether you, the listener or i Carol or you, Michael have, have the space to think that your thinking is honored and that your thinking can
Speaker: give surprising results because you're not only thinking, hopefully you're curious, right? So you can think something.
Speaker: i can think something now that I didn't think of before. And I actually did in this podcast. So if I'm open, if I feel safe enough, then i feel safe enough to think. And if you if I, if I really feel safe,
Speaker: enough to think and feel safe with the person, i may expose that out loud. But I actually think it's a valuable it's it's a valuable but It's a valuable aspect, which I don't think I thought of before this very second, which I kind of like.
Speaker: And that is that thinking takes time. It takes a minute. You know, it takes 30 seconds. It takes a feeling that you don't have to answer right away or that your answers don't have to be um practiced in advance because that's the only way there's going to be any growth or real empathy is, is you know, the idea is evolving, right? it's not It's not just empathizing to say, okay, I see how awful you feel. Bye-bye.
Speaker: No, it's like, okay, I hear you're really miserable. Let's see where that's coming from. Or let's see if this is the right place to do something about it.
Speaker: Let's, let's do something to get it to be better. Let's add in support. Let's add in teaching. Let's add in supports for parenting. That's just unplugging that because I think that is underrated.
Speaker: um But yeah, I think the idea of it's safe to take a second, to take a minute and that the person is really listening to you and listening hard enough two to empathize with your need empathize.
Speaker: take space to take a minute to think. Yes. Yeah, it is true. Take a moment to think. You've certainly given me lots of things to think about.
Speaker: And in some ways, it is unfortunate that we have come to the end of our time. But there is so much in what you've said, which has sparked so many thoughts, that I'm going to have to ask you back to explore some of them in more detail. Oh, geez.
Speaker: And we can do that in all sorts of different formats. But For today, Carol, it has been fascinating and I really do appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. been great.
Speaker: I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abbasida. And in this episode of Fit for My Age, I have been having a conversation with Carol Smaldino, the author of Vulnerability Protected.
Speaker: You can find out more about both of us by using the links in the description. At Fit for My Age, our aim is proactive positive aging. Knowing the risks early is an important part of maintaining good health.
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Speaker: I am sure you will have enjoyed this episode of Fit for My Age as much as Carol and I have enjoyed making it. Please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere.
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Speaker: Until the next episode of Fit for My Age, thank you for listening, and goodbye.
