Transcript
Speaker: Step into the Gardener's Lodge with me, Michael Haw. Let's explore the fascinating worlds of gardening, nature and ecology through conversations with experts, thought leaders, passionate enthusiasts, and of course, some real good friends.
Speaker: All from the cozy heart of the lodge. Come on in. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Gardener's Lodge podcast. I'm glad you're here. I have something quite different for you this week, actually. I'm speaking with Corinne Black, a psychosexual and relationship therapist and author.
Speaker: Now, why do I have a psychosexual and relationship therapist and author on my garden podcast? Well, she actually has written about how the garden is a connection in relationships, not just couples, but family units, friends, anyone you garden with really. And this episode goes deep.
Speaker: We talk about how to reconnect and deepen your connection with nature through your garden and what we can learn about our relationship with our significant others while gardening together.
Speaker: I've got to admit, I divulged quite a bit of personal information about my relationships. Kind of ended up being my own personal therapy session. no I'm kidding. It didn't. But um I really had a really great time chatting with Corinne and I think you'll enjoy this episode. It's a little bit different, but I think it's an important conversation to have.
Speaker: But before we get into the interview, here are Corinne's six rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Yes, I'm ready. Perfect. Favorite plant?
Speaker: Favorite. Oh my goodness. Oh, ah oh, wisteria is one of them. Favorite way to connect with nature? Mindful.
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah. Most beautiful garden or natural landscape that you have ever visited? The landscape in China is just amazing and so vast, so incredibly vast and mainly untouched. Okay. Favorite garden tool?
Speaker: My hands. Yes. Good one. Absolutely. Definitely. If you could be one, would you be a plant or an animal? An animal. When you're looking for the most reliable information on anything garden related, where do you turn first? My husband. Okay.
Speaker: Always. Do you know how to do this? oh Nine times out of ten, he will. He'll have worked it out. Good on you. For people who aren't familiar with your work, could you tell me a little bit about yourself and what first drew you to, well, gardening, ah nature, and then...
Speaker: how you've tied becoming a therapist into that? My very first memory is of sitting in my grandmother's garden in Denmark and eating eating strawberries that we'd just picked together.
Speaker: Yeah. I was about, I think i was about four um And I no doubt picked strawberries that weren't ready to eat. yeah yeah But my grand... And this is what this is actually what one of the the things that stuck with me. She was very patient. She did ah an amazing allotment plot. That was so... Everything was in neat lines. And there were I can never remember seeing a weed.
Speaker: in her allotment. It was just amazing to me to be able to to wander as a little girl, to be able to wander around all of these vegetables that were growing there. on The other half was just filled with flowers. She was just amazingly green-fingered in the garden. I'm sure it's more romantic than it probably was in reality. My vision is of this ah Alice in Wonderland garden.
Speaker: It was, ah oh yeah. And um I could never recreate something as neat as what she had. I'm just not like that. And also I'm married to somebody who really enjoys to some extent letting things grow. So there's a ah sense of wilderness in there too. Yeah. Albeit, I mean, the wilderness that I would not allow the wilderness to take over the whole garden.
Speaker: you know, or we'd just have brambles everywhere. Yes. And that's not quite as enjoyable to me anyway. You've taken that. When did you first kind of have your own garden? Probably, yeah, it it wasn't until I had my son that I had my first garden.
Speaker: Which is interesting, isn't it? Because that was also when I started experimenting with growing my own. um So my tomatoes grew in per and the conservatory, but didn't quite know how to grow tomatoes. So that they I just watered them and and let them grow. And of course, they reached the ceiling before they before the end of the sea season and ah didn't actually have that many tomatoes on them because the ah energy was all taken up in the plant of with with growing leaves and they were really bushy. I have lost you if you can hear me. Which I probably was.
Speaker: There's nothing more powerful than your first crop that you've grown all the way through to actually eating it. There's something about it. Absolutely. And I don't think it's just ah the first crop that we grow that tastes better just because we we put so much effort into it, not just physically, but psychologically. We've got to plan. We've got to get it in at the right time and make sure that it's nurtured to its full potential and all of these kind of things that also then enters in on the emotional.
Speaker: Because if we put a put a seed down and it starts coming up, that's no matter how often I have put seeds of tomatoes or squash or something like that in in to to germinate. And once they start coming up, I'm always amazed and and so pleased and happy. It never fails to to just amaze me how such a little seed can turn into such ah an amazing thing that feeds us. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: There's a lot of emotional ah connections that that go on. Seeing that little seed pop up gives you that dopamine hit to the brain that makes you feel good.
Speaker: If you're listening to this show, i have no doubt that you love the natural world, and you will always be keen to bring a little bit more biodiversity into your garden space. Well, I've got a little something for you. I've created the Biodiversity Garden Blueprint, a completely free, professionally designed planting plan that takes the guesswork out of creating a beautiful, wildlife-friendly garden.
Speaker: Inside you'll find the planting plan, packed with 12 UK native species, practical advice on how to support wildlife within your garden, a maintenance guide and much more to help you get started.
Speaker: If you'd like your free copy, just head to thegardenerslodge.co.uk or follow the link in the show notes. I hope it inspires you to create a garden that is as beautiful for you as it is valuable for wildlife.
Speaker: So coming to your therapy work, you know, we live in this world that's dopamine hit after dopamine hit. The online space is constantly demanding our attention, you know, our phones, social media, we're getting notifications constantly. And that's feeding those dopamine receptors in a way that's just artificial. It's attention grabbing. And i don't know about you, but for me, I think my brain needs a rest and my brain and I can tell that difference in dopamine hit from a screen versus when I am out in nature and i get that sense of wonder and wholeness. And, you know, do you think our brains are craving or a return to nature?
Speaker: I could jump on that one very quickly and say yes, of course they are. But you know um I think it depends on who you are, first of all. um Some people thrive in in in that world of being constantly demanding their attention onto social media, onto whatever um um program you use for for notifications and stuff like that. and you know, when when I'm sitting on the train or when when I'm out in Popling and I hear that constant ping coming through on people's phones, I do wonder just how stressed they really are without noticing.
Speaker: o So I think the longing for return to nature is certainly there for a lot of people, but I wonder whether they know that it's a longing for return to nature. And thinking back on the kind of issues that I saw in families, in relationships um and so on was, for example, um eating dinner together would, for some, would be done with mobile phones or in front of the TV. And, you know, that this is a moment, perfect moment to connect together.
Speaker: and download the day's events. um And that was something that i was very firm on. We did or we have done when the kids lived at home.
Speaker: um And that no mobile phones were at the table. um At the time, it was very hard because they're all teenagers. They lived on that. It was their life. And that's changed now.
Speaker: But um no, i the return to nature is is, I think you're right, that it's something that's innate within us. It's just how do we do it and what is it that we that we individually can gain from that ah revisit to nature. And why is it that we go for that? Because if you live in an apartment in the middle of a city, you're going to find it pretty hard to to actually go out on... it's it's It's an effort to go out and connect with nature, unless you're living right by a park.
Speaker: So the Google ah Wellness Journal that I did talks about connecting with nature and on a daily basis. So, for example, just walking to work or walking back from work or from the bus or the train or or whatever. On a daily basis, you can always find...
Speaker: a green space, even if it's just a small pocket park or a sports ground or um a road with trees lined with trees, anything like that, that has got ah a net net nature kind of aspect to it. So it's the the green of nature that feeds us somehow. And there's been research about that green of nature. And i think there's lots of research still to be done and being done.
Speaker: But it's like, you know, if you go into one of the courses on forest bathing, for example, that's all about soaking up that environment that you're standing in and using all your senses to notice. So you're not taking anything away from nature, but you're feeding on what's there.
Speaker: So then we we come in on on mindfulness, right? Yes. Yeah. So yeah what what is mindfulness? Because I think a lot of people hear about it and it kind of becomes this ah term that I think a lot of people actually misunderstand. Yes. So what is mindfulness?
Speaker: Mindfulness can be used in different ways. Mindfulness itself is ah using your senses to experience the world around you. Okay. Okay. So whether that is, so so it's all your senses. So so i'm I'm not inviting you to go out and eat your sheets or or the plant that's behind you, but I mean, that there is an aspect of taste as well, you know. yeah So, and you might use, um so for example, to to hear ah what is around you can be, can feel so intrusive if it is that you've got a lot of thoughts going on in your mind.
Speaker: But if you can give yourself just a few seconds to just close your eyes, sit still and just hear the noises that are around you, that's part of mindfulness. Yeah. So even if you're at a train station and it's filled with noise.
Speaker: um Now, personally, I've experienced that and as feeling quite intrusive. And then I thought, hang on a minute, perhaps there's too much going on in my mind. And that's why it feels intrusive.
Speaker: um So I did that. I stood, I closed my eyes for just a couple of seconds and just let that noise in. And it was so such a different experience.
Speaker: So, um I mean, to to start talking about mindfulness in in its full breadth, we would need another two hours at least. Of course. But it's it's that it's all a census, using all the census. And I would invite anybody who has a garden or who's interested in nature just to go out. And apart from taste, unless it's strawberries or raspberries this time year or whatever it is that you can find, please do not go out and eat plants that are not edible. um But go out and just sit and use one of the senses at a time. you know Find a plant that isn't prickly and just feel the leaf.
Speaker: you know Feel the stem. ah You don't have to crush it. You can just feel it lightly. Hear what it is that's going on. Smell what it is. you know All of this. One of the things that I do is for your context and background on me, I'm obviously Australian. I moved over here a year ago and I used to live in the country in Australia.
Speaker: and now I live in London oh wow in in an apartment and um I don't have a garden anymore. And we'll come to this. But, you know, that has affected me mentally. Absolutely. um But one of the things that I used to do at home was walk along the street or go on a bushwalk. And if I'd see eucalyptus tree, I would grab a leaf, crush it up and smell the smell because it's they're also potent. There's about a thousand different eucalyptus species and everyone has a different smell. Some are beautiful and fragrant. Others smell like nothing. And that's a disappointment. But even here in London, I can still find eucalyptus trees. And if I find one that I can get to, i will
Speaker: grab a leaf and smell it. And just the act of using that sense of smell brings me so much calm and joy. If my partner's there, we will trade notes like it's a fine wine, like lemony or yeah something like that. yeah and and um And you can do that with all sorts of plants and anything that every plant has a unique smell. And I think to start to understand that and to start to use that for me, at least living in now a metropolitan area that has been
Speaker: far more beneficial than, you know, nothing at all, or than, you know, just going on a, on a walk through the park or anything like that. It's that actual tactile kind of feeling of it that, that i that I love.
Speaker: Yes. Now the act of you taking a leaf from a eucalyptus tree and crushing it in your hands, think about all the senses that you've used there.
Speaker: You saw it. So sight. Yeah. Yeah. touch, you pick the leaf, you crushed it in your hands and then you smelt it. So there's three senses there without even thinking about it.
Speaker: So if you were to slow that down next time you do that and actually notice the tree, not just see it, but notice that it's there, And then when you reach up, that's a movement, you reach up to take a leaf, notice what that's like to reach up and take a leaf.
Speaker: Then when you have the leaf in your hand before you crush it, feel what the leaf is like, and then crush it, feel what that is like. So you you already you're so connected to what it to that process o before you've even smelt it.
Speaker: Now there's a there's a sorry, go on. i was just gonna say, and what and what does
Speaker: experiencing those different senses, how does that connect to mindfulness itself? Well, mindfulness is about ah connecting to your senses so and and and fully experiencing them because in the world that we live in, I've already touched in on stress. We live in an and an incredibly stressful world where there's a constant demand on our on our attention.
Speaker: um So we tend to neglect all the other senses. So I've seen that specifically in um in psychosexual, working with people psychosexually, where um it's gone so far as people have lost the sense of being able to feel what it's like to be touched.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. So, and if if you cannot connect with that sense of being touched, um then sexually you are not connected either. So you lose out on that intimacy with another person.
Speaker: Yeah. So you've actually written about observing pollinators as a form of mindfulness. What is it about observing and experiencing the life cycle of our pollinators? And I would imagine when we're talking about pollinators here, we're talking about insects and um ah butterflies, bees. Birds.
Speaker: Birds. Yeah. um Things that are super... accessible to most of us, um i would say all, but most of us. What is that act of mindfulness?
Speaker: We have an amazing bee hotel in our garden. Oh yeah. Absolutely amazing. And we put it up, I think it was last year or the year before, and it's in the perfect position of being in the sun, so it gets nice and warm.
Speaker: And we have got very few rooms left. So any bees out there wanting to book in, they need to do it now, there's oh There's over 50 little spaces there, all plugged in with leaf-cutting bees, leaves, you know, stuffed in there and the fluff and and all kinds of stuff. It is it was...
Speaker: It's slowed down a bit now, but just a few weeks ago, they were crowding around it to get a room. you know Really? Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I mean, that has been such a joy to watch, and it still is.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. So next year, I look forward to seeing the little holes developing where where the insects, the bees, have emerged. Coming out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, see that, that is, ah I guess, suppose like observing the life cycle. And I suppose, it I mean, you're never going to observe the life cycle of like one exact animal, but I think you can kind of, so like for me, for example, back home, we use in Australia, I used to, um, love seeing the, uh, calistamine saw flies and they would munch away at all the little calistamine leaves much to my, uh,
Speaker: dislike but they turn into these beautiful hoverflies and i think reconnecting with that kind of nature even in your own garden like that was for me uh certainly brings back that little little sense of joy of like well I know that like you're here for a purpose and um and I think that enjoyment is is really quite special And I think that that's the thing, isn't it? You're here for a purpose. To know that that bee that you might have swiped away because it's come come a little bit too close to you, to know that and the purpose of it within the grand, you know, huge um cycle of of of living, of survival, um is something that brings a completely different emotional relationship.
Speaker: between us and pollinators. um Yeah, I mean, there's also, so so you've mentioned quite a few examples now of home, Australia, and your garden and your experience and um what it was like for you.
Speaker: um And what we have also in nature is is a prompt to remember. Yeah. So you were talking about the ah eucalyptus tree and picking a leaf and crushing it and smelling.
Speaker: And that sends you right back to where you come from, right back to those memories of doing exactly that, but in Australia. And so suddenly you transport yourself back to, and I can tell on your face when you tell the story, that it's something that means a lot to you.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you take that part of your past and that part of nature with you. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. and i And I think too, sharing that experience with my partner as well is something that brings me joy also, which is something that I think we should dive into is is is gardening with your partner and what that can teach you about your partner. You're relationship therapist. So this is sort of your bread and butter we're getting into now. Yeah. um Where did you kind of link the the two between gardening and a betterment for relationship or gardening as a tool to learn about your own relationship?
Speaker: Oh, definitely. When the when my um husband and I started gardening together. So we've been together 16 years now. And with him being a ah and an ecologist, he has got so much knowledge of what it is that goes on in the garden. And he's got some really firm ideas of what it is that he wanted in the garden.
Speaker: and how he wanted it to be used. there am coming along with my ideas too. And the two of us clash in some ways, not all, yeah but in some ways. And this is where gardens actually can be an amazing place for relationships.
Speaker: Because we have to negotiate our preferences and the way that we react to and the way that we bring forward our ideas to each other.
Speaker: So we have to negotiate it so it. So the garden can actually be a ah um a tool in a way for us to... learn more about one another, for us to learn how we can better communicate with one another, not just about gardening, but in general life.
Speaker: So we get to know how the other reacts and we get to know how we perhaps can change the way that we react to one another. So so we we had a ah beautiful garden where we lived before and I miss it hugely.
Speaker: um it was it It kind of had an aspect to it that was my husband's and then another aspect to it that was mine. So I like a little bit of neatness, not yeah completely shaved and stuff like that, but I like a little bit of neat like neatness where he likes the wild stuff.
Speaker: yeah So to combine those two was quite a challenge and we had to make space for each other's ideas. So that was really why I thought this is such an opportunity to to develop a relationship here.
Speaker: um Because, so um I've got to be careful not to use jargon here, but we we sort of um put our ideas of relationships into what it is that we're doing in the garden.
Speaker: People might disagree on what it is and you might have situations where one partner loses interest in gardening because they feel as if they' are not being their ideas are not being made space for.
Speaker: of who Yeah. So it's this kind of how much do we allow the other person to come into our space? I mean, in in my in my head, the garden isn't just a garden. It's an extension of of the house. So it's another room, but it's also an extension of what it is that we do in our relationship.
Speaker: o So a lot of people think about gardens as it's where you go and garden. You know, you become a gardener when you're in the garden, but it can be used for so many other things.
Speaker: So of course I've just talked about how we can use it for discovering each other and how it is that we react if it is that we allow our partner in. um But it's not just that. We can use it as, I mean, what do we use gardens for? We use it to socialise, we use it to relax, we use it for exercise, we use it for um calming ourselves when we've had a stressful day, or maybe we use it to avoid ah big family gatherings. I don't know. That can happen too. We just need a little bit of peace so we go into the garden, you know. Yeah. It can also be ah a connection with neighbours.
Speaker: and We used to talk with our neighbour through the garden. We couldn't see him, but we used to talk with him through the hedge. ah So that it has a lot of fun. I suppose my story was with gardening with my partners. I'm a garden designer and a to be a professional gardener for a long time. And my partner, um you know, you're right, we had conflicting ideas as to what what objectives we were going in with our last garden. And um initially, yeah, there was some of that friction and there was some of that kind of back and forth. And then I kind of had to realise that gardening,
Speaker: for me is a profession, but for my partner is a time to enjoy themselves and to learn, to play, to, um experiment in in in certain ways. And I realized that like, even though as a professional, I know that something that he's doing isn't going to be working like, yeah, okay, you're doing, it you're doing it wrong effectively. Right. But then I had to learn to stand back and go, you know what, that's not my lesson to learn there or lesson to teach there. And I had to go, going to let you do that. And you're going you can find out yourself, you know, but that's, that's, that kind of like to and fro, um
Speaker: I think was something that I certainly learned about gardening and learned about our relationship, learned how to communicate and and it's some aspects of it. I've been able to take back into the rest of our relationship as well, because it's like, okay, well, I don't have to be right all the time.
Speaker: Yeah, and know that it's going to go wrong, but that's okay too. Yeah, you know because gardening is about failure, to be honest. when when you know If you're not killing plants, you're not gardening, are you? Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, I mean, that's another thing. i i I grieve when I kill plants, perhaps too much so, but it's my outlet of emotions and and it's brilliant.
Speaker: So what one of the things that I was asked, before about um gardens is is when a partner is not interested in gardening and or in the garden ah and a partner wants them to just show a little bit of interest, just come out into the garden.
Speaker: so Sometimes when that happens, it's it can be because the garden has become a focus for for the other person um and it's it's theirs. The garden is theirs. It's not mine.
Speaker: And so to create an area that is ours is part of that process of getting other people involved. And it can be just a place to sit down and and have a glass of wine or a cup tea or something like that. Perhaps a a memory ah that you can put in there. So for example, my my husband um created a wedding arch in our old garden. you know and i thought i was so I didn't know what he was doing and then he came in and said, what do you think to that? And I said, yeah, no, that's okay.
Speaker: And he said, it's our wedding arch. because we've been we'd got married that year. I thought that was so gorgeous. And it was made out of wood. So when eventually it it rotted, it was it was so sad and such an emotional journey for both of us. But it was something that we shared, you know. Yeah. and So things like little areas where you can go and and be together without having to do gardening, without having to to have a deep interest in the plants or what it is that goes on in there, can actually start something off in somebody else who perhaps has got no interest or showing no interest.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, I suppose, in yes in your particular relationship, your husband's an ecologist, so he's looking at the kind of natural systems within the garden. And as you said before, you lack a little bit more order and a little bit more hands on gardening. And I can see how that would create kind of a little friction within the space. How did you overcome that?
Speaker: Was there compromises that had to be made? Was there... um Well, he's very lucky that he's married to me, isn't he? Because I'm a relationship therapist.
Speaker: So, no, it was a matter of, of um um but so I talked with him about what gardens meant to me. Yeah. which is, ah ah I think, a very important conversation for anybody to have if you're trying to garden together.
Speaker: What does it mean to you? What is it that the memories are there in the garden for you? ah Where is it that you go when you go in and enjoy the garden, when you do gardening? and In your mind, where are you? Emotionally, where are you?
Speaker: And... and um and kind of foster a sense of respect for what it meant to me. um So that it wasn't just all of his ideas that went in there. um And that actually produced something very interesting, which was that he began to um retreat, if you like.
Speaker: And we started talking about what kind of skills he had, what kind of skills I had, and what um aspects of the garden he was better at than I was, and I was better at than he was. okay um So the heavy duty stuff, for example, turning over the ah compost and things like that, I'm quite happy to hand over to him.
Speaker: um And yeah ah growing vegetables is something that that he just loves doing. And he loves it more than me. I do like it, but he loves it more than me. So he's he's he's got that.
Speaker: um And he loves growing things that are very different to to what you would get in the supermarket. So we get a little bit of everything. And sometimes it's it's you know it's edible, but that doesn't mean you you should eat It you know it's it doesn't mean it tastes good. No. Not at all. So, I mean, we we get a lot of ah interesting developments there.
Speaker: If you're listening to this show, i have no doubt that you love the natural world, and you will always be keen to bring a little bit more biodiversity into your garden space. Well, I've got a little something for you. I've created the Biodiversity Garden Blueprint, a completely free, professionally designed planting plan that takes the guesswork out of creating a beautiful, wildlife-friendly garden.
Speaker: Inside you'll find the planting plan, packed with 12 UK native species, practical advice on how to support wildlife within your garden, a maintenance guide and much more to help you get started.
Speaker: If you'd like your free copy, just head to thegardenerslodge.co.uk or follow the link in the show notes. I hope it inspires you to create a garden that is as beautiful for you as it is valuable for wildlife.
Speaker: So as as topics in relationships, there are three questions that you could you could use to explore what it is that your own garden mean to you. and your relationship So this can apply to families as well as couple of relationships. okay thank So ah the first one, question one, is what did gardens mean in your childhood?
Speaker: So that is, what did it mean to you? What did it mean to your family? What was the purpose of garden of the garden? The second question is, what do you want the garden to make possible?
Speaker: That's a bit of ah a, ah yeah, it's a bit of a a a thoughtful one. So what is it that the garden in your life
Speaker: could mean, could make possible in your relationships, in your life, in your family? So is there a specific purpose that you would like to bring forward?
Speaker: To get out of your garden or gardening? Yeah. Okay. Question three, which parts of this space, so the garden, should be yours, mine, and ours?
Speaker: So this is a question again about, you know, how do we share this space? How do we share a garden with our partner or our family? Okay.
Speaker: I think... They're all really quite interesting questions that, I mean, I'm thinking of my answers right now and and they're obvious in a way, but then at the same time, they're thought provoking. They're kind of, um they make you reassess the connection that you have with the garden from your own perspective, but then the connection that your family and your, or whoever else is using that garden space has with it for themselves as well, which I think is quite important.
Speaker: Yes. They're great. They're really good. You know, another aspect that I was thinking about before I spoke to you was I had a moment in my life where, uh, I was helping my sister move out of her home that she'd just sold and she needed all ready it for sale, I think. And we were weeding together and we spent a few hours together and that time together was actually some of my most memorable conversations and time that I've spent with my sister because she's 19 years older than me. She's, um, uh, you know, had her own kind of life. And at that point I was sort of just beginning, you know, in my mid twenties.
Speaker: Um, But that doing those menial tasks, we were just weeding. So doing those menial tasks together where you're physically doing something with your hands, there's light conversation about the tasks you've got going on, but then something breaks and there was a deeper level of conversation that we've never really slipped into before.
Speaker: that point that I thought was thinking this morning I don't think that would happen it if we were just sitting there over coffee necessarily when you when you think about so this um I think gardening is brilliant at that but it it wouldn't do it it wouldn't be the only situation that you might find that um when you sit and have a cup of coffee and and you know it's it's lovely sitting and relaxing and chatting and stuff like that But very often you're face to face, you're looking at each other.
Speaker: Yeah. And that can feel quite exposing, especially when you enter in on conversations that are perhaps deeper emotionally or emotionly or um things like you and your sister might have talked about things from the past that are pretty difficult to talk about.
Speaker: So um being in a garden and and doing things in a garden, your your focus is, out your ah your visual focus is elsewhere. So it's easier when you don't feel that exposure to actually talk.
Speaker: So this is one of the things that when I used to work with parents of troubled teenagers or just teenagers in general and and younger kids, one of the things that we spoke about was how how communication can be can be different so for example in a car you're sitting you're driving you're focusing on what you're doing and very often communications things come out when you're sitting next to each other and you look straightforward rather than looking so it's that action of not having that visual confrontation if you like
Speaker: Or pressure, maybe, suppose. Yes, yeah. um Yeah, that that makes it easier for us to reveal part of ourselves that would be um that would feel too visual if it was that we were eye to eye.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. My fondest memories as a child were gardening, but maybe that's because, ah you know, I love it, blah, blah, blah. but um your love came from somewhere, didn't it? so that Well, my mum says she's not a gardener, but, you know, when you own an acre and a quarter, like, you can wow you've got no choice, right? so yeah um It's interesting, you know, I think even with nieces and nephews growing up, getting into the garden was like a way to get them... experiencing the world and and learning away from screens and away from the more regular ways that we teach children. Do you think gardening can be a really valid tool for parents and children to get out into a space, probably before they're a teenager and they don't want anything to do with you anymore, but you know, um when they're a little younger, to to kind of start to learn about each other in a completely different aspect?
Speaker: I think it's a wonderful tool, absolutely wonderful. i mean, my own experience with my grandmother was ah just amazing. um But with with the the parents, grandparents, whoever you are, to to get your your the younger generations into the garden, the younger the better, and actually let them have, perhaps let them have a a little corner of the garden where they can do their own thing.
Speaker: And um where they, you know, it it doesn't matter what they do. that You might guide them, or but not controlling what it is that they do so they can get enjoyment from it. And that might mean that that little corner ends up with looking messy or it's got their toy cars or things like that in it or dolls, and you know, whatever it is that they want. But the the most important part of that process is that they are allowed to be in the garden and have their own thing going on their own way of connecting and seeing something growing.
Speaker: So one of the... um One of the things that I look forward to with our grandchildren is to to put those first seeds down and then watch them as they notice this little ah plant coming out of the soil and growing. and And then it's probably going to be tomatoes, you know, yeah and growing into something that you can eat, you know, because that is ah an amazing experience for little ones. Absolutely amazing. And they really connect with it.
Speaker: so when you think in terms of uh community gardens that's exactly what happens there you know the importance of connecting with nature there is a book by a um i think she was a psychiatrist actually who did some research into working with prisoners um and and getting them involved in gardening and um getting them to ah really connect with what it was that they were doing, which was so restorative for them.
Speaker: um to engage with that. And then she moved on and worked with communities where ah their surroundings, you know, completely neglected communities where their surroundings was just full of um mattresses and old three-legged chairs and and it it looked not very nice. And so she she had this project going where they cleaned she involved them in cleaning up the area.
Speaker: And on the scrublands, she had them, with permission, of course, from the authorities, she had them cleaning it up, but not only that, creating a garden kind of environment.
Speaker: And the whole area changed their attitude to each other, to the community, to that the crime ah rate fell in that area. interesting And it was just, they had a connection to the area suddenly. they where before they taking it in a certain way yeah before they might have, but it wasn't a connection that they felt was conducive to their own personal wellbeing.
Speaker: So the research was just amazing. So I don't know what's happened to that community since then. Yeah, hopefully flourished. Yeah, you can only hope. Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, that brings us to, I suppose, the just the mental health benefits of of gardening in general. You know, getting your hands in the soil is just nothing...
Speaker: better. Scientific fact that there's microbes within the soil that can help combat depression and build your immune system, yeah um you know, getting out in the sunlight, vitamin D, all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker: In a world where we're increasingly inside, how do we gain back that connection? ah Right, so we we need to, so if we haven't got a garden, then that's going to be pretty difficult, except there are in an increasing amount of community garden projects yeah that go on. So it'd be a matter of connecting with them.
Speaker: um this's There's also just, if you don't want to do gardening, there's plenty of people who really have got no interest in doing gardening. And that's fine. But get yourself out. I mean, we've had some amazing weather. OK, it's not been very good regarding drought and gardens are suffering and stuff. But in the sunshine, get out and find a tree to sit under. You're in the shade. You're not going to get burnt.
Speaker: But sitting under a tree is probably one of one of the ways that you can connect with nature without getting your hands dirty. if You don't want to do that. yeah So again, it's this thing about finding the green spaces that are closest to you so you don't have to make a huge amount of effort because if you have to do that, then it's not going to last.
Speaker: So it's small steps, getting out, find the green spaces from there. You can perhaps find something in the community that will allow you to get more involved. ah We've also got to remember that that gardening, ah sort of there's so many other arms that spread out. So there's the seed exchange that happens very often in in communities where you've produced your own seeds and you you you go and you... you You exchange with other people what the seeds that they've produced. um
Speaker: And mean, we walked, we went for a walk around the the area here where we lived the other night and there was somebody who had their whole front garden filled with plants that they were selling.
Speaker: So that there's that as well that we can do. It's it's all a way of connecting. and and go So we went in and had a look and and stuff like that. It's community connection. Yeah, exactly. yeah So it's that bit of... the ah If it is that you don't want to get your hands st dirty, you can connect. If it is that you just want to connect with other people and explore what what gardening is, there are gardening groups around that you can become part of. You can listen to podcasts like yours about gardening. um So that's there's lots of different things, lots of different aspects of gardening that we can get involved with. What do you hope people would gain from this when it comes to building a deeper relationship with the natural world and the world around them?
Speaker: You know, my my greatest hope is that people will become more mindful of what it is that they see, what it is that they um get to know more about pollinators, for example, and appreciate what it is that their role is.
Speaker: And other insects. So for example, wasps, one of my clients was once on the way out of the door said, oh, I hate wasps. I don't see the point of them. And I said to her, well, actually they're important pollinators.
Speaker: o And she said, really? No. Yeah, they are. so um So, you know, you if you change your relationship, through knowledge, then you're going to start appreciating nature more.
Speaker: o So that that's that aspect of getting more knowledge, getting to to recognize the importance, not and not getting caught up in the media information that comes out about if if all pollinators die, then it's the end of of the human race and and things like that. Take a step back from all the big stuff that we're being fed, because we can do nothing about that.
Speaker: And just take a step back and then focus on what it is that's immediately around you. You know, you you can walk into town and and there's nature all around you, you know, and the cracks in the pavement, there's a plant that's coming up. You look up in the buildings and sometimes you see, you know, amazing botleers that are growing out of a wall, you know. And things like that. And that's happening because of nature, because birds have eaten something and dropped a poop and a seed has taken root. So it's it's just ah wonderful and you can see it anywhere, absolutely anywhere.
Speaker: Beautiful. Corinne, where can people find you? i'm Well hidden. oh good Well, it depends on what reason. They can look on the internet. Do you have website? Yeah, I have a website. Yeah, it's kareenblack.com.
Speaker: um it's Yeah, I mean, they can look on there. There's various links on there. I need to update them. but yeah' written You've written a book called The Essential Companion to Talk Therapy, everything you need to know about the therapy journey that people can read.
Speaker: if you like. Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you very much for your time. I've really enjoyed this chat. My pleasure. you Absolutely. lovely Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. If you like the show, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button, tell a friend or two, or maybe even give the show five-star rating and a review.
Speaker: If you want more gardeners lodge content, you can find our website, our Instagram and our tip talk in the show notes below this episode. The gardeners lodge podcast is a growing media production.
