Transcript
Speaker: Step into the Gardener's Lodge with me, Michael Haw. Let's explore the fascinating worlds of gardening, nature and ecology through conversations with experts, thought leaders, passionate enthusiasts, and of course, some real good friends.
Speaker: All from the cozy heart of the lodge. Come on in. Welcome to this week's episode of the Gardener's Lodge podcast. My guest today is none other than Tom Leonard, the drag queen gardener who shot to fame at Chelsea 2021 after appearing in full drag. Our chat is so fun and energetic and we talk about how drag and gardening intersect and what it's like to work as a gay man in the horticultural industries.
Speaker: the realities of instant fame in the gardening world and a chemical free future for public spaces. I really hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did. it was a fun one, but before we go any further, let's hear Tom's rapid fire questions.
Speaker: Are you ready? Yeah. All right. Favorite part. oh Oh God, I hate this question. but you know what I'm absolutely loving at the moment? It's this rose. um It's called Morning Mist by David Ossimose. It's a single petal rose. And it's just, um I'm a bit obsessed with that right now. I have, the chance change for me with favourites.
Speaker: Oh, and they should. um Favourite way to connect with nature? I'll go on a walk and I don't like to have my headphones in. I like to hear what's going on. Yeah. Like in terms of like, I want to hear the birds singing. I want to hear everything. When people are going for their walk in nature, why are you listening to a podcast? Oh no. Oh, sorry. I shouldn't say that.
Speaker: Yeah, hang on. Yeah. No, don't listen to a podcast. This one. Turn the music off. just listen to what's around you and, like, take it all in.
Speaker: I agree. I actually agree with that one. Oh, God, I'm so sorry. No, no, don't. I also do like podcasts. Most beautiful garden or natural landscape that you've ever visited? Oh, I would say...
Speaker: The front gardens at my work. And I'm a bit biased because I have completely like redesigned and worked them all. And I'm so, so, so proud of them. And I every now and again, i have to stop when I'm working and I look across and think, God, this is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker: Like, this is amazing. I love that answer. Favourite garden tool or tool of the trade? Secretaries. If you don't have a good pair of secateurs, like, what are you doing? that they'll It will hurt your wrist. It's not going to be any good for you. Get a good pair of secateurs. They're always hand and useful, and I've always got them on me.
Speaker: Perfect. If you could be one, a plant or an animal? Oh, I would love to be my Labrador. Finally, when you're looking for the most sound and reliable horticultural advice, where do you turn first?
Speaker: My own Instagram. Hey, there you go. You describe yourself as a horticulturalist, a drag queen, a rugby player and a presenter, which is quite the CV.
Speaker: But who is Tom when none of those labels apply? Oh, God. um Tom is... That's a lot of personas, I think. I think that like everyone thinks... It's broad.
Speaker: you know, drag is a persona, but I very much am a different person on a rugby pitch. um Yeah. Very much. Yeah, that's that's actually... It sounds a bit weird hearing that back. um I am definitely not high maintenance, but I definitely am very strong-willed. Yeah. don't put this... um I very much quite like the quieter kind of things. ah One thing that I've realised as I've gotten an older is as much as I am an extrovert, and I think I have to be in everything that I do and everything that I love, I have found myself where I quite like it...
Speaker: these days where it's just more of a quieter life outside of that okay in sense of like you know um ah i i i feel like i'm very different to other gardeners because i'm a fair bit younger and like i'm still going out i'm still going to a nightclub i was at rave last weekend How old are you? I'm 29.
Speaker: Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. um and But one thing I absolutely love is... you know what the best part of my week is? Is just sitting on the sofa with my boyfriend and my dog after, like, a Sunday roast and just doing nothing and watching a bit of telly or watching something, I don't know, on Netflix. or and And that is honestly the highlight of my week. Like, I love...
Speaker: just kind of ah like lately I've decided I'm going to start trying making jam. but Nice. Okay. Kind of like, you know, that that that's just what I love. i I love kind of solitary kind of time as well. I love you love being on my own. I feel like people don't like being on their own. They have to surround themselves with so many people. And so I suppose that then brings us to your love of nature and your, I guess, love of gardening. How did you get into horticulture?
Speaker: I used to work more in retail and I used to um live on sort of the outskirts of a city in Birmingham. And I used to catch the train into the city centre where I was working. And on the way on that journey, on that train journey, I used to pass some allotments. And I always used to see it you know, passing by out the train window. And I was just really, really curious.
Speaker: I didn't really I grew up quite rural in in a village, but I didn't really do much gardening, if that makes sense. I was always surrounded by nature, but I suppose the interest of growing my own or, you know, knowing everything about plants wasn't always there. I guess there was a curiosity, but I feel like most people say, you know, I got into gardening because i was doing it with my grandparents and stuff. there wasn't that That wasn't really a thing for me.
Speaker: um But, yeah, so i was always, I was quite curious and quite interested when i was on the train going, over the years, going into work and to and from. But what happened was, I was in a relationship for two years with a guy, and can I swear on this podcast?
Speaker: Yeah, hit it. I was like, um Well, that fucker dumped me. And, um... But do you know what? He's actually a lovely guy. Bless him. But um yeah. but he dump me so out of the blue and i was a bit like you're dumping me i was like thought i thought i'd be happy anyways absolutely heartbroken caught off by guard um got absolutely drunk um i was in my i was literally i think 21 at the time okay obviously went out with my friends that night got absolutely blooded woke up the next morning and then you know when you look out looking out the window like in a down music video like oh god what am i gonna do now yeah yeah raging hangover and for some silly reason i thought oh my god i'm gonna get an allotment um ah not having any experience in car as every 21 year old does what a homosexual thing to do yeah but this was pre-covid so basically
Speaker: I spoke to the allotments that I used to um pass by on the train. It was sort of about a 20, 25 minute walk away. And yeah, luckily they had two plots going. It was severely overgrown. Like it was really, really bad. And no one wanted to take them. But me um being, you know, a 21 homosexual, I thought, well, ah um it'll be like a Julia Roberts movie. ah I'll take this allotment and like turn it into an eat, pray, love. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Anyways, i what I should also mention is, I always forget to tell people this, is I actually hadn't got my driving license then. So what I spent all summer, actually I think over the winter as well, before I got my license, walking up and down the road, because I didn't have a shed either, with a wheelbarrow and all my tools in, up and down, up and down, up and down. But you would have been fit. Yeah, this is the thing, I was dedicated.
Speaker: so over that first summer... um when I took it on I ah didn't have a clue I didn't even own a pair of gardening gloves I kind of signed the deal to the plot that was going to rent it and I was like oh god what am i going to do now um and I just kind of started getting stuck in and I started reading a few gardening books you know going on YouTube looking at what i needed to do what i thought yes And I will be honest, over that first year of the summer, I made every mistake going. I didn't know what I was doing. I, it was just mental. But what I found was I, you know how you can kind of sit down and binge watch a Netflix series for like eight hours?
Speaker: Yeah. Like, you know, when like the next like season of Bridgerton comes out and that that's it, that's me under a duvet for like eight hours. I was having that with gardening and I was realising how much I loved being outdoors.
Speaker: How much, you know, i was saying, was getting to know neighbours on the plot and speak to them and bless them. Like say if it absolutely piddled it down with rain, like go they'd be like, Tom, come in come in the shed. but that Under a tree, like a mat with like just one shovel because that's the only tools that I have um But what came from those mistakes that I made as well is a curiosity of Knowing more about, oh, how don how do I do get this right the next time? And I think over sort of a couple of years, i really started to fall in love with gardening
Speaker: And not just growing your own, like, produce and, you know, fruits and vegetables, just flowers as well. and And the more I'd get wrong, the more I'd want to get right in the sense of, yeah you know, I'd want to know what that plant or would actually need to survive. Like, is it drought tolerant? Is it, you know, does it need a shady spot? Actually, like, do you feed it? what You know, does it lose its leaves? Is it or is it evergreen? Yeah.
Speaker: And yeah, and i I just kind of really started to, it was the very start of what began a massive interest into gardening. And then, yeah, ah eventually it kind of, it just, it got out of control. just What I love about that story actually is highlighting the mistakes that you made when you were younger, right? When you were first getting into it. And I see this with my consultancy or coaching clients, right? They, they,
Speaker: get so wound up in doing things the perfect way and, oh, my God, I've killed a plant and all of that silly stuff when the reality of the matter is, is like, you don't you can't get better without the mistakes and you can't learn how to do this without screwing up.
Speaker: yeah Even if you read the every gardening book on earth, you'd have a pretty good, you know, basis, but it's the physical act of doing it that, like, creates a good gardener. And i think you can explain that, like, perfectly in your story.
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Speaker: Well, I think this is the thing, right? I think the kind of PC way of me put, like, the most politically correct way of me putting it is, is I always say to people, oh, there's no such thing as a bad gardener.
Speaker: and and What I actually want to say is, don't be so bloody stupid. It's a plant. Yes, you've killed it. you You just try it again and do it the next time. like yeah it's not rocket science and it's also never gonna like i mean it did kind of change my life but at the same time it's it's not and no big catastrophe gonna happen yes you killed a plant now just figure out how not to do it next time that's for me gardening yes is amazing and being within it but i think it is such a lifetime of learning like i will say i am so much more of i hate to be called an expert but i suppose
Speaker: from where I am now to where I started, I'd yeah i'd look at myself and be like, Oh my God, you're an expert in gardening. Yeah. and As I'm sure other people call you all the time, right? Yeah. and oh I do find it bit weird, but then I like, but I have to admit, i I've soaked in all this knowledge and I've been working on it, but there's so much more for me to learn. And I think that's the thing I could live to I'm 103. mean, i probably won't, but,
Speaker: even then i've still not learned everything you can carry on there's so many there's so many things to know and so you know no matter what kind of whether it's planting or you know a certain variety of flowers or growing your own vegetables there's always something new to learn there's always something that people have forgotten about and not remembered there's there's so much to it and i think i've never been so interested in something in my entire life I agree. I actually identify with almost everything you've said there in the way that um the reason I love it is that you do just never stop learning.
Speaker: And it is funny, you know, I speak to people on this podcast, well, you know, i would, what I would call experts on this podcast all the time. And um they make me feel like I am not an expert. But then when you kind of look at where I am in my career and where you will be as well, you know, we do have that, like, much greater knowledge set than the general public. So to those people, you are an expert.
Speaker: It's weird, isn't it? Yeah. It's really weird when you kind of break it down like that. Well, you actually just made me really think about something. I always say to people when... Say when you're going through hard time and you cant and you don't know what to do in it with your life, I always say to people, try something.
Speaker: And even if it doesn't work out, it's giving you an avenue of, well, maybe I'm going to try something different. Or actually, like this about what I was just doing. So I'm going to look more into that. And I think with gardening, it's exactly the same. Like...
Speaker: Once you try it, there are so many avenues. And even if you don't like that avenue, you can pull back or use that to go somewhere else with it. Yeah. there's this that and That's what I mean. there's so There's so much to learn.
Speaker: there There really is. And then, I mean, we could go on forever about this. but um But I did want to ask you when did your drag persona, Daisy Desire, come about?
Speaker: Well, that was actually like, can I be really honest with you? A lot of people don't realise this. yeah ah A lot of people say to me, oh my God, you've got such a good niche. Oh my God, it's so genius. sorry sure Yeah, so so many people say to me like, oh my God, you've got such a good niche. And the truth is, actually did it to take the piss.
Speaker: i I was in gardening. I think at that point, I had had my allotment a fair few years. um I'd created a gardening Instagram just to kind of like keep up, you know, just to kind of document and diary what I was doing, you know, my gardening journey on my allotment and what I was growing. And I called it Going Up the Lottie.
Speaker: What a lovely name. Long before it turned into the Drag Queen Gardener. And then I think I had also been made redundant from my job the city centre.
Speaker: And so I started working as a gardener part time. okay and other people's gardens and i didn't know why i was at that point i was a bit like oh god this is a bit out of my depth but you know yeah it's gardening's got me this far i can learn i can figure this out yeah um and then i always loved drag i absolutely did and we were in the kind of lockdown periods of covid and i wanted to kind of get into drag And there was nowhere really to perform because, often bless all the drag queens, they were struggling to get work because obviously the nightclubs are closed, all the bars are closed. So I wasn't even going to try and like get on the stage there.
Speaker: And then I just had this really silly idea of, wouldn't it be funny if I got into full drag and went to the garden centre on my allotment and had like a Vogue style photo shoot and then just post it on my gardening Instagram like... And I honestly did it. it was first It was supposed to be fun for me to do. It was supposed to be silly. We were going, you know, the lockdowns were quite a dark time. So I thought, you know, it just might be something to laugh at.
Speaker: Little did I know what would happen that I'd post it online and it just kind of, it went crazy a bit. It did just kind of blow up. um All of a sudden, you know, I was someone with like 20 followers. And then all of a sudden it was like 2,000 followers, 10,000 followers. And I was like, what is going on? That's amazing.
Speaker: Yeah. And then the RHS got in touch and they were like, would you, how do you feel about coming to Hampton Court Palace Flower Show Press Day? So basically, little bit of knowledge about flower shows is, Chelsea's usually the one that kicks it off in May. Yes. But because of COVID, Hampton came first and then Chelsea came in September. And that, this was just something that just... Yeah. so I had no...
Speaker: no experience of going to flower shows. I didn't really know what it was. Obviously I knew what Chelsea Flower Show was and I knew that there were flower shows. I had no idea of what, I had no familiarity of that, of that world because that's completely different. There's gardening and then there's kind of what I'd say is like that kind of flower show world in terms of all the big gardening events and stuff. Yeah. Show show gardens. and Show gardens. Yeah. Yeah. Show gardens. And um so i spoke to a couple of friends that I'd made um over time um who were in that world, a couple of garden designers and stuff, and said, what do you think? Like, should I turn up in drag? Because the RHS were fully there, like, oh, no, we just want you to turn up. Like, like you don't have to come in drag. It's entirely up to you. so I spoke to a couple of friends about this. And they were there, like, oh, my God, you have to turn up in drag. Like, people won't know what to do with you. Like, yeah it will go mad. And I was like, okay.
Speaker: So just for some reference, like press day at flower shows isn't open to the general public. It's just, it's basically celebrities, gardeners, um and the press.
Speaker: that that That's kind of really it. and kind of And it's quite hard to get into, if even for the the press, it's quite hard to get into. Yeah, well, I didn't, it sounds really ignorant, but didn't realise that because just got invited.
Speaker: Anyways, I decide, screw it. I had no money for drag at that point because drag's is very expensive. But I've managed to pull something together. God forbid. I mean, I look back and go, what a mess. But at the same time, I think, well, you know, it was it was the time it was that time in life. Exactly. Like when I rock up in like giant... um black stripper heels and just a dress from asos it's and uh and yeah so that's what i did but then i also rise on the back the drag ring gardener because funny enough i hadn't even come up with a drag name by then it was everything kind of spiraled very very quickly anyway rock up and all of a sudden people this photographer starts taking my photos
Speaker: And at that point, I'm thinking, what's going on? So I just think, wow, I'll just pose for them then. I was thinking, well, no one's ever done this before. Because I think I started playing up to the camera, all of a sudden that one photographer turned into like, honestly, about 30, 40 odd press, like just going wild for me. Wow. I remember because I looked over and I remember seeing like Vanessa Fouts and loads of other celebrities start to look at me going, what the bloody hell going on over there?
Speaker: And then it just went mad for throughout the whole day. That's wild. I imagine just everyone was just there like, what's going on? The BBC put me in front of their camera. The artists were there like, oh, we're filming this. Can you be in it? And I was like, yeah, sure. And i I look back at all that footage and stuff and even the stuff that they took.
Speaker: And I think, God, I really didn't know what I was doing. But I was just thinking, just go along with it. Just play into this. People were coming up to me like, oh, my God, you're from Drag Race, you? I was like, absolutely not. from my allotment. don't I'm doing here. LAUGHTER ah But again, it's that thing of like, you know, you didn't know what you were doing, but you did it anyway.
Speaker: And it worked. People are there like, fake it till you make it. I was there like, no, but I was like, it won't fake it till you make it. It was theyre like, if this is my one day being treated like a celebrity, I'm going to just live like one. Lap it up. Lap it up. Like, take my picture. I am Kate Moss.
Speaker: The funniest part was the next day. I was like, people people were messaging me, being like, Tom, do you realise you're in newspapers? So I signed to Google The Drag Ring Gardener, and it was just mad. it was You go on to, like I think it was like the Daily Mail or something, and it was like, um celebrities that attended Hampton Court Palace Flower Show.
Speaker: And then it would be like, it would be me, like number eight under Vanessa Phelps, and like but above Bill Bailey or something. It was mad. ridiculous It should not have happened. That's wild. With Chelsea Flower Show being in September, then the blessing they invited to the press day of there.
Speaker: I, again, rocked up in an ASOS jumpsuit. I'd kind of altered, got a few drag queens to help me sew some things together, rhinestone the hell out of it. And then the next thing you know, I'm interviewing Judi Dench and then that hits the papers. And then after that, it just goes mad. And then i get agents trying to ask me for things like, and ask to represent me and I'm like, what do you mean?
Speaker: And ahll I'll be honest, I'll tell you what I told them. um They asked me, they're like, where do you see yourself? And I just went, look, I was like, I'm actually at university.
Speaker: um i i don't really want to do it. I'd like to drop out and study plants. um I really, really love gardening. I've been in this a couple of years now growing my own and trying to work a little bit as a gardener. But I really would like to make this a career potentially.
Speaker: um And I was like, look, i was like, I'm probably the only person you could probably put on Gardener's World, talk a little bit about gardening, and then also have fun and have drinks with Graham Norton. I went, you can have a laugh with me.
Speaker: o I was like, because I am also that person that will tell you if I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. And I'll find it funny. um And then, yeah, it kind of went a bit mad. But at the same time, I never stopped training and gardening. i I went, I did drop out of uni and I trained as a gardener. I've been working my way up. I think a lot of people don't know this, but...
Speaker: A lot of people in gardening Instagram world, they don't, that you know, they have their own jobs, but outside of gardening. and Yes, yeah that's right. And, you know, that's that's lovely. Gardening is a hobby for them and all that stuff. But I never stopped working as a gardener for like five days a week, sometimes six days a week.
Speaker: And I kind of just carried that on and and carried on training. And now i'm looking at at doing more training with the ah RHS and stuff. But yeah, it's bit mad. But sorry, yeah, that's a really long answer to a question. I'm so sorry. No, I love that. From that kind of whirlwind experience that you've had with all due, I guess people saw you as a spectacle. Did you find yourself having to prove your horticultural credibility to these kind of industry people at the time? Did you find yourself like having to prove yourself at all?
Speaker: Absolutely. Like, I think if I'm really honest, um I was holding my own in front of them. But I always had that at the back of my mind that I need to prove myself in terms of I knew that all these people might just see me as a tick box or think, oh, the only reason why he's here is because he is the drag queen. He's the different one. He's the diversity.
Speaker: You know, he's the big gay in gardening. yeah And i'm not I'm not afraid to kind of acknowledge that. And ah it made me feel like I really had to...
Speaker: prove that I knew just as much as everyone else. Like, it's one of them. It's like, i need to show people that what I've always wanted actually is when people look at me and go, oh, he's just here for God, you know, because he's the drag queen.
Speaker: What I actually wanted is for someone to then turn around to that person and be like, actually, do you realize he's actually a professional gardener and he's trained in the RHS and he's done all this stuff. He actually knows what he's talking about. Funny enough, actually just reminded me My mom came with me when I was doing a talk at Hampton Flower Show.
Speaker: And she was sat in the audience. And there was a gentleman that sat next to her, um a gentleman and his wife. And the gentleman turned around to his wife, when my mom was right next to, sat next to her, and said, oh, God, they've got drag queens everywhere. She's like, what do they actually know about gardening? And my mom... i I have to give it to my mom because my mom is very highly strung. She will not afraid to gob off and tell you what for. But apparently she politely turned around and went, do you actually know how hard this that person works that's about to come on stage? And like listing off all these accomplishments. And then the wife turned around and went,
Speaker: oh God, you know quite a lot about about the Dragon Garden, don't you? What I should do is my son. Oh my God. Good on her. And do you know what? yeah I have to give it to her. I'm i surprised I didn't hear her buthar like when I was in the green room about to go on. um But I was also really kind of What a really nice moment to happen because being a drag queen, you never know if like, you know, your parents are from a different generation. if You never really understand the kind of that struggle of I'm a drag queen. This isn't always easy. I know it always looks glamorous and I'll bring you to these events, but it's not the easiest. And I think for me, it made me realize that she's seeing me for me now. Like she sees it for what it is.
Speaker: But at the same time, yes. um It's weird. Now when I go to Chelsea, maybe it's because i'm I'm more well-known or because I'm more confident in my own achievements and my own knowledge. um I feel that a lot less now.
Speaker: But I definitely am aware that, like... Let's not be stupid. it i and I am a great diversity tick box at these sorts of things. Yeah. I try not to let that hold me back. You know what mean? if if i If I'm going to be a tick box to get me through the door, I'm going to then make sure that I prove my worth while I'm here.
Speaker: i will also say on the flip side of that, there have been so many people in the industry that have supported me through that and that that they have also like not treated me differently because I'm a drag queen you know i mean and they've actually been like really quite kind and considerate about it like I've never asked for anything special but it's nice to know that like there are also very much many allies in the industry that I mean, that is really lovely. And I mean, there's so many wonderful people that work in the industry that are a part of the LGBTQIA plus community. um
Speaker: And I suppose we don't hear a lot from these people because they're just going about their days. to gardening and and and working hard and putting food on their table and and loving what they do. But what more can the industry and and organisations like the RHS do to, you know, celebrate their LGBTQIA plus family members that are working within their own organisations?
Speaker: You can't turn your back on us when times get hard, definitely. Okay. I think, if I'm honest, I don't have all the answers, but I think I never wanted to get uplifted because of being a drag queen or bit of because being a gay man. I wanted to get uplifted because of me being a horticulturalist and that just be, you know, I just happened to be the drag queen. Do you know i mean? I always kind of say that I'm not... um a drag queen who gardens. I'm a gardener who does drag. Yeah. And and i'd I'd rather that be celebrated. and and you know, I love the fact that my drag is celebrated, but I don't want that to be, oh you're only being celebrated because of that.
Speaker: I don't know what else we can do. I think, you know, we can, in terms of the flower show circuit, I think definitely we could have more diversity in it. But I will say over the years that I've been in it, I have seen, you know, things are heading in a better direction from when I first arrived.
Speaker: Yeah. um I think in terms of the industry, i think when we're hiring people, let's not like, you know, let's not discredit people just because of like who they are.
Speaker: um And I don't think that should ever be a hindrance. um But yeah, I'm sorry, I don't think I think I'd love to tell you like a really good explanation of what we could do. And maybe that's something I i need to actually think about bit more about.
Speaker: No, well I mean, it's such like a broad problems societally, you know, and I think that by virtue of you being there, maybe as the tick box, but that is the industry's signal to saying that we support this community. We are there for this community. And of course, that's not going to be the only thing that they should do, but it's it's certainly a good start.
Speaker: Um, and I think, yeah i guess you kind of get into this conversation, don't you, about like corporations and whatnot, putting the pride flag on their logo and pride month, whether that's a good thing and, and, and, and whether they actually support them, you know, the other 12 months of the year and all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker: and So I guess it all kind of ties back into that. yeah. I think too, just on like my own personal experience in gardening for your kind of background, I, um in Australia ran my own design and horticultural business and I employed people and I always found it interesting. And and I suppose in the way, this similar way to a probably a lot lesser extent, every person that I came across and I met, um that was going to be a prospective client i always had that little bit of a feeling that i had to prove myself that little bit more because well not only am i part of the community but i'm also um thin i was gonna say a twink for you i'm not anymore but yeah at the time i was um and a business owner so you kind of have to you know prove yourself
Speaker: That's so funny. How embarrassing. oh But, um but, but, you know, you so you' walk into those environments where you're talking to people who are much older than you and sure, then they're hiring me and my business for a certain purpose and whatever. But yeah I did feel like I had to prove myself 10 times harder than if I as sent in um my straight male care counterpart that was employed by me, if that makes sense.
Speaker: Um, I've wondered, have you experienced that within, so take takea away Daisy and and the dragon and and the kind of like. um Yes. the the The prestigious kind of yeah side of things and just in your day-to-day working life. I have had that before, but I also had an experience that really caught me off guard. um I worked for a garden design company for a bit.
Speaker: And I'll never forget, like, they very much knew that I was the drag queen gardener and stuff. And basically, I would go out and they'd do these amazing gardens and I'd go out and either help install them or mainly, like, help maintain them and work with the client.
Speaker: And one time I went back to the offices um and the owner was there and he was chatting to me. And then he came out with, just so blasé, um don't forget to tone it down, though, obviously, when you're with the clients. Ooh.
Speaker: And I, in that moment, I think because I was so happy to be working in that job, it turned out to be a really horrible job. But in that moment, I didn't want to upset the apple cart or anything like that. And I really just didn't even let it sink in And and i went, oh, yeah, yeah, no, of course.
Speaker: And then it wasn't until i think the day later, I was speaking to a friend and said, oh, it's like my the boss of this company um said something weird to me. and he was And she was like, what? And her reaction was just it really made me realize that I hadn't even acknowledged what he'd actually said to me yeah because what do you like what do you mean don't forget to tone it down um in front of the clients and I and I thought actually looking back all these years later
Speaker: How dare you ask me take that? Like, what at what point do you think me being a gay man or a bit camp is unprofessional or would not represent your company in in a professional manner or would discredit you? Like, that is so bad. It's wild.
Speaker: And I never, and to this day, I fully regret not really... biting back with that or saying something. And it really kind of just upsets me to think that I just let it slide and let it go. But it very much installed in me that I will never, ever be spoken to or be thought of or let anyone say that to me. Never, never like...
Speaker: disrespect me in such a way and also it wasn't as if this person didn't know who they were hiring and it just made me feel like but I also don't shouldn't have to defend the fact that no I'm not overly camp in front of your clients in an unprofessional manner Like, there's no way like i I shouldn't have to defend myself for that. But I was just like, you wanker, you absolute wanker.
Speaker: will never, and I will never let anyone like, think of me like that ever again. And I won't ever work for someone like that. No, and I mean, good. Like you've learned that boundary and and unfortunately it took that that was like ah someone in a position of power and someone that was employing you to kind of get you there, which is so unfortunate.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. I think... you know, as gay men, we do have that doubt in ourselves. Like, are we good enough? And, ah you know, more or less, what I probably would say more than a kind of like straight men do. But it really made me realise that, like, no, this is not, I can't put up with this. Like, this is this is not okay.
Speaker: and we are good enough and we shouldn't have to diminish ourselves or feel like being gay or ah or camp or any sort of way is seen as being unprofessional in a workplace and it really kind of i think it's also again it just like upsets me as well because I think at that time i was just like I to upset the apple cart and then not even allowing myself to digest it until it was my friend's reaction that made me realise, actually, Tom, like, you you need to – you can't put up with this.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. and Yeah. It's an it's an it's interesting kind of interesting conversation because as a business owner as well, I had – women work for me, and I had to also deal with that um misogyny from clients towards women as well, saying that, like – ah well, I'd rather a man come and do the job or I'd rather, um um, are you sure she knows what she's doing and, and things like that, that they would just never, ever, ever, ever, ever ask of a straight man. Um, or I hope they never asked of me, but yeah who knows? I mean, they were bringing these things up to me. Who knows what they were having conversations about myself, you know, yeah um with their partner or who or whoever, the the neighbor or something, you know? So,
Speaker: It's fraught with um with kind of those awkward situations that, you know, we have to deal with, unfortunately. Absolutely. But visibility will hopefully change that.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. And and i think, well, I just hope that as time goes on, things do get better. i remember my my last, um um ah my old place of work, um um on my old estate, um the head gardener was was a woman and she was great, but she definitely was getting it all like...
Speaker: I think because we worked in a place with a lot of elderly men, they always had opinions on her. And especially, say, if we had a contract to come in, they weren't. like How do i put this in the most polite way? They weren't expecting a woman to be in charge. And yeah, I used to just like rile her up and kind of like gear up and be like, go on, you know, you know, you you can do this. You're amazing. You know, i mean, don't ever let men tell you ever what to do. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. And I used to get so wound up for her.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, I got so wound up for my staff as well. Like I just, I couldn't fathom it for a start, but then it would be things like me getting called in by the client to be like, well, she's got to move all this mulch today.
Speaker: you going to be there as well? Kind of thing. And you'd be like, no she's probably stronger than me. Like, um, you know, it's just, it's, it's just such a strange thing.
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Speaker: But I did want to move on before we run out of time um to your activism work, which, you know, drag inherently isn't is political and you've taken it even further and ended up speaking in front of MPs at Parliament yeah trying to advocate for chemical-free counties and environments and a chemical-free UK.
Speaker: How did that come about? Well, um when I was gardening um for a company, i was when I was looking, actually, funny enough, the the company I was just on about, I would notice there were loads of yellow rings around the trees going down the roads. And I used to think, oh, God, like, that's a lot of dogs cocking their leg up there and killing the And then I saw one of the council workers spraying around the trees, and then I realised, oh.
Speaker: they're spraying glyphosate and i was like i don't think this is okay and then like say like it it kind of over the years i started to notice a bit bit more like in parks and stuff like if you see around like where where the play areas is where even if it's the um the fences going across it's just like complete lines of yellow dead grass where they've killed on the course um And then when Youth for Nature wrote reached out to me and said, we're going to go to Parliament.
Speaker: We want someone to speak about glyphosate, um banning glyphosate in our public spaces, like things like parks and cemeteries and and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, my God.
Speaker: I actually know what you're talking about. And then when I started looking into really what was going on, I'm someone that when someone pisses me off, I'm i'm not going to let this drop now. And I thought, and then they said, and I said, look, I will come to Parliament with you. I would love to chat to MPs, but I don't want this to come across as...
Speaker: You know, oh, I'm an expert and I'm just telling you what to do. I was like, I want to tell you exactly how it is from human being to human being. And I don't want to make, i don't want to overcomplicate it. i don't, I want people to understand what I'm saying to them. I don't want it to become some like horticultural science jargon.
Speaker: And I was just like, this is not okay. it's It gets into our waterways. it's it's absolutely It's just ridiculous as well, because what they are doing is spraying these chemicals as a temporary fix. The grass, it does eventually grow back.
Speaker: um So you're just adding I mean, it doesn't take that long for it to grow back. No, yeah. And you're just adding more and more and more glyphosate, um which is horrendous. It's just horrendous. It's literally, it's it's a chemical that's designed to kill. yeah And we're doing that where we walk our dogs, where where you know where kids are playing, where where we walk, or we'll sit and have a picnic.
Speaker: And how is this acceptable? like We've got other countries that actually, i think it's the Netherlands, um that actually spray like boiling hot water in tanks in this place at the same time so they spray with the glyphosate and it does the exact same job but you're not adding in the chemicals and there's so many other alternatives to doing yeah i mean you could even let the grass verges grow for god's sake but yeah yeah exactly this is just a short-term fix for cosmetics you know for for what's the word for the um aesthetics
Speaker: of um of a place without actually doing any sort of thought or investment. And the reason why most of the councils do this is because they don't put enough funding into looking after these spaces.
Speaker: So it's almost like, okay, we'll narrow down the workforce, but how are we going to handle this? Oh, it's easy. we'll you know We'll just easily just spray a load of glyphosate around it. And that should do the job. So not only are you not investing in your green spaces, You're just cutting corners just for aesthetics because you can't be asked to do the bloody job properly.
Speaker: And you're spraying the chemicals at the same time, which is not helping the environment in the slightest. So basically, I just wanted to tell them what for and basically and tell them how it is.
Speaker: good on you i mean it's it's still kind of mind boggles me that that this is still happening in 2026 to be honest and it is a convenience thing and it is a cost thing um and i mean you mentioned it was an aesthetics thing but i i think a glyphosate edge looks horrendous like it does not look good you know looks awful Yeah. um But I suppose that kind of exact thing brings me to a video that I saw on your Instagram page about, correct me if I forget, forgetting the exact way that this happened, but you were correcting a member of council who was saying that they couldn't afford to pay their gardeners to do a certain amount of of work. And you had a problem with that.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. do you know what? I can't be asked for gaslighters. Like, i just it just riles me. It's weird. I didn't realise how political i have become lately.
Speaker: yeah um um God, I can't imagine not every Saturday I'm out with a play card.
Speaker: In drag, I'm sure. This councillor was saying that like, oh oh, money's not an issue. We pay our gardeners enough. And I was thinking, no, you absolutely don't. I am so sorry. You will pay the bare minimum, right, to work as a horticulturalist or, you know, even gardening in the council. You have to have your level two RHS training.
Speaker: um they pay lower They pay a lower wage than what you'd get paid if you were collecting trolleys at Asda. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just saying like, I'm so sorry. And there's nothing against like working in NASDA or or carpentry or being a plumber. But why is it that like, say a carpenter or a plumber electrician is a trade, but gardeners are just like, oh, we can pay you the bare minimum just to get by. Because we don't want to invest in that. that you You don't actually really need to know anything. Well, actually really do. To get a job like that, you have to have at least a year's long worth of training. You have to know the basic knowledge. You have to use power tools.
Speaker: And it's manual labour. Yeah. But according to this gaslighter, you know, oh, you know, oh, we we have the money. Well, then why aren't, why i went on their website, it was like, why are you paying such a low wage then?
Speaker: don't Don't come and tell me that you don't know why people aren't going for these jobs. If I was a young person, I would not want to work a manual labour job five days a week for even less than what I'd get for collecting trolleys Amsterdam.
Speaker: and um And I'm sick of the horticultural industry not going harder and speaking louder about this because they absolutely do need to. Because gardening, there's so much to learn. I'm not saying everyone has to you know become like a deputy gardener or train as an expert horticulturist like myself. But to even get ah an entry level in this industry, you have to, well, literally know your onions.
Speaker: Yeah, there's literally such a vast, as we were talking at start the show, there's such a vast array of information that you need to know just to know the basics, let alone to, you know, be in the position you're at or head gardener or anything further. Like you can't just expect things.
Speaker: smart, intelligent people are who have studied and have paid for that study to then turn around and do a job for minimum wage for the rest of their life. It's just not going to cut it anymore.
Speaker: Yeah. and and And then people are saying, like she's saying, oh, we need to bring more young people into the like you know the gardening trade. Well, I'm not being funny. Young people, what are you saying to them? Oh, come into gardening, but you can't afford to keep your electricity on if you can eventually buy ah if you can eventually be able to afford a house. Yeah.
Speaker: And that's... that's not It's that, but then it's also young people want to be in the industry. There's no shortage of young people who are putting their hand up and wanting to work outside and and and and they're interested in plants. But...
Speaker: they then have to get serious about their lives and realize that, oh shit, I can't actually afford rent or food or, uh, you know, the new baby that's on the way or something like that. And then they have to give up on that dream and move somewhere else or start their own business, I suppose. But, you know, it is one of those things that I just can't work out where it's gone wrong for so long. And nobody has really touched the surfaces on dealing with the problem.
Speaker: Exactly. And it's like, i feel like gardening once upon a time was actually a really valued industry. Yeah. you know You know, we don't just do these country, nice, big estates. We look after where your kids play and where you walk your dogs and, and you know, the fields that you' that you'll take a nice walk in. we We try and look after the environment, but if you're not going to look after us, well, then the the actual like environment that you live your daily life in.
Speaker: is going to suffer. And that's exactly what's happening. And I think probably it comes back to the fact that um people are so just disconnected with the natural environment around them and don't hold value in the natural environment around them, which is devastating, really.
Speaker: Well, it really is. I mean, like, it's just it's just mad. it's I think the best thing that people can do is actually try and enjoy their gardens and actually try. They don't have to be some big gardener. It's actually go outside enjoy your gardens and actually...
Speaker: ah Or if you don't have a garden, whether you can grow something in pots or anything that can actually connect you with that natural world. And it's just, I mean, the idea of someone putting an artificial turf down is just disgusting to me. It's like, what a way to run in the opposite direction. Honestly, honestly, it's my like, it's like just a horticultural nightmare for me. It's like the one thing that I'm like, how do you mean it's nicer to sit on plastic right now in the hot summer that we've had? Like, yuck. And then they're like, oh, it's better for the dogs. And they're like, how hot do you think that plastic shit is when it's like 40 odd degrees outside?
Speaker: Not to mention. wouldn't suck your down on that, you'd burn it. ah Literally, and not to mention that like when their dogs shit on it, they then have to not just pick up the shit, they have to then hose it off.
Speaker: and it's like and then So what do you mean? I know, I know. And then these people try and say that like, oh no like ah the artificial turf company, oh no, there's better drainage now these days. Don't give me this shit. You're literally replacing something living and natural with something plastic.
Speaker: Yeah, honestly. What is wrong with you? bizarre. God. It's like everyone out who has these plastic fake olive trees from like Timu and shit. I'm now like, God, what is wrong with you? know. Like literally go out and touch grass that's not made of plastic. Yeah. Yeah. Literally exactly that. Like, Oh my God. It's, it is a strange world that we're living in, but I think you're making it a better place. And, um, I want to know though, what's next for you? What's next for Daisy? What's, what have you got in the pipeline?
Speaker: oh Oh, that's a really good question. um What have I got in the pipeline? um Professionally, but also like personally, I'm very excited because I am currently looking into, so I trained ah with the RHS at level two. I'm now actually looking at training at level three. So just continuing my studies as well as working um while I work still full time.
Speaker: um But yeah, it's really exciting for me because not only is this obviously going to but benefit me professionally, but personally, this is just like, oh my god, I'm going to actually put more energy into learning so much more about water culture and and you know the different environments and landscapes of that holds.
Speaker: I got at work on the estate. We are currently still building the walled garden. um which is a really big kind of situation that's happening. um And then we're now on about building an orchard next to that, which is which quite interesting, actually, because I i know a little bit about fruit trees, but to be able to build an orchard, it's going to be... Again, it's one of these things where it's just going to fill me with so much more knowledge, but and I love what I'm going about to learn. ah yeah With the Dragon Gardener... Oh, that's a really good question. um
Speaker: God, I don't know. I'm going to a couple of events... this year but nothing kind of like parliament nothing nothing with my placard just yet yeah um yeah i have i'm not allowed to talk about it but i have been asked to go speak at an event in london about um all my activism and how we can actually make our green spaces more safer without glyphosate um so i'll be i'll be doing a bit more of that and doing a little bit of personal research as well because this is something that is not going away and i'm not going to stop shouting about this until the councils actually do something about it good oh tom thank you so much for your time i've thoroughly enjoyed this chat and um it's been amazing talking to you oh no well thank you so much for having me thank you
Speaker: Thank you so much for joining me today. If you like the show, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button. Tell a friend or two, or maybe even give the show five-star rating and a review.
Speaker: If you want more Gardener's Lodge content, you can find our website, our Instagram, and our TikTok in the show notes below this episode. The Gardener's Lodge podcast is a growing media production.
