Transcript
Speaker: Step into the gardener's lodge with me, Michael Haw. Let's explore the fascinating worlds of gardening, nature and ecology through conversations with experts, thought leaders, passionate enthusiasts, and of course, some real good friends.
Speaker: All from the cozy heart of the lodge. Come on in. Hello and welcome to the show. Today i am talking with ecologist, climate activist and content creator Rhys Layton, who is passionate about reimagining our relationship with nature and the natural world. Rhys brings an infectious enthusiasm and optimism to his work, and I think that comes across in this chat. His volunteering in conservation has earned him both the RSPB Young Volunteer of the Year and New Forest Young Environmental Champion. and he now has taken up a position with the Young Wilders as their West Ecological Officer.
Speaker: In our chat, we get into climate change, ecosystem conservation and restoration, and how we can feel more connected to the natural world. And when I say i had so much fun chatting with Rhys, I really do mean it.
Speaker: But before we jump into the full interview, let's hear Rhys's six rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Okay. Yes, let's do it. Okay. Number one, favorite plant.
Speaker: oh ah Oh, I wasn't as prepared as I thought. um ah Pyramidal orchids because I saw them this summer on a rewilded site and it was just like this life changing experience. Favourite way to connect with nature?
Speaker: Wildlife photography, if i can if I can make the time for it. Going out and trying to trying to get and a cool image is is the most fun for me. our Most beautiful natural landscape or garden that you've ever visited?
Speaker: Oh my goodness. ah So in your neck of the woods more, um I had the opportunity to go to the Daintree Rainforest when I was younger. and That's where I grew up, bro.
Speaker: No. Oh my gosh. You grew up in the coolest place in the world. That's unbelievable. Yeah, it is cool. Wow. Yeah. Daintree Rainforest is probably the best place I've ever been. Favourite garden tool or for you, I guess, tool of the trade?
Speaker: Um, I garden tool. Does a scythe count as a garden tool? Yeah. Why not? If you could be one, would you be a plant or an animal? I mean, I'd be me first and foremost. That's my number one choice.
Speaker: Cause I like life. Um, but I think maybe, maybe just an ancient oak tree. You know, I think about, we've got some trees in the UK that that are still alive that ran when Robin Hood was around and just like what when the landscape changed for such a vast period of time would be, Pretty amazing.
Speaker: When you're looking for reliable advice on anything plant, garden, ecology related, where do you turn for the most trusted information? um o i i go I love like any sort of ah nature autobiography book.
Speaker: um So like um just for the for the sort of more broader wisdoms to really get my mind in the right place, Robin Wall Kimmerer, you know, Braiding Sweetgrass, that sort of thing. It's just amazing. um for For UK botany, Leif Burr-Sweden.
Speaker: It's a UK based botanist who is like a hero of mine. Absolutely fantastic. Such a great way of communicating. um And he he's got two books that are both really beautifully written. um And he's also got a really cool Instagram, obviously, as everyone does nowadays. But yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: ah Authors, I guess, are my go to place. um Yeah, it's a good answer. Your Instagram bio says tackling the extinction crisis through empathy and wonder.
Speaker: What I'd like to know is in your background, when did you first realise that kind of scary facts and figures wasn't cutting through for the masses? And when did you realise that you yourself possess the skill to be able to turn people onto ecology and onto nature and and express these theories and concepts in a different way?
Speaker: I mean, i would say there was ah no specific moment. It's all been a very ah gradual build, I guess, um through myself only gradually realizing kind of the state of nature, ah state of the climate crisis. I i um i sort of, i I remember when I first learned about climate change, I was like in maybe year one or two at school. And oh i remember, 25.
Speaker: i'm i'm twenty five Okay, cool. Oh, no, I'm not. Sorry, I'm lying. I'm 26. But ah um but yeah, I remember learning about climate change at school. and um And I remember being like, wow, this seems like a huge problem. um but the teachers seem to just move on and move on like and just talk about the next thing.
Speaker: um And we also learned about, like, don't know, quicksand. and And I thought that was a huge problem, too. And then it turned out, obviously, if it's not in day-to-day life. um And I thought at some point, the teachers must know something about climate change that I'm not grasping, where...
Speaker: I'll have an epiphany that it's not a big deal. And that epiphany kind of just never came. um So by the time i was like ah in in my mid teens, i was I started going to protests and things like that and doing demonstrations um because i was like, we need to do something about this. um But I was maybe maybe at that time going at it more from the doom angle of like, I mean, not that that's, it's I would say positivity is is hopefully ah fairly woven into my personality, but I definitely was freaking out a little bit. And maybe that came across in the way I was communicating. um But yeah. Yeah, I was going to these demonstrations and doing lots of talk, but I didn't feel like... It felt a bit inauthentic because I didn't have any knowledge on the subject. um yeah So I was like just a kid and I didn't didn't know so much. So I went to uni and studied climate change um and kind of that was...
Speaker: Only while doing that, I sort of fell in love with ecology and realized that's what I wanted to do. okay and And it was really ecology that made me realize like, hey, this is like, yes, what we're facing is a huge problem and it's really scary. Yeah.
Speaker: But actually, the work you can do to fight against sort of the biodiversity crisis is just so fun. It's just innately like silly and enjoyable. And so when I started communicating about the climate crisis through that lens, it um it was so much easier to put across a sense of, yeah, ah wonder um and just like how cool is the natural world. And yes, it's it's falling apart in many senses, but also there's so much we can do about it and there's so much to enjoy and doing things about it is enjoyable inherently um so yeah I guess that's that's how I've landed where I am now
Speaker: If you're listening to this show, I have no doubt that you love the natural world and you will always be keen to bring a little bit more biodiversity into your garden space. Well, I've got a little something for you. I've created the Biodiversity Garden Blueprint, a completely free, professionally designed planting plan that takes the guesswork out of creating a beautiful wildlife friendly garden.
Speaker: Inside you'll find the planting plan, packed with 12 UK native species, practical advice on how to support wildlife within your garden, a maintenance guide and much more to help you get started.
Speaker: If you'd like your free copy, just head to thegardenerslodge.co.uk or follow the link in the show notes. I hope it inspires you to create a garden that is as beautiful for you as it is valuable for wildlife.
Speaker: What are some of those enjoyable little acts that you can do day to day that that maybe they don't you know turn the dial on climate change, but They have like a small little impact at home. What are some of those things? Yeah, yeah, yeah. um I mean, i think i I generally don't like to answer the question, what should I do? People come to me and ask like, what exactly should I do? And I think it's different for every single person. There's no one right way to do to be an advocate for nature, you know. So it's it's finding whatever you already enjoy and then just doing it doing it for nature um yeah and there's so many different ways of doing that but i mean who doesn't love to see wildlife put a put a pond or a little little source of water in your garden and you're gonna have wildlife come um and you know just topping that up every day could just be you know a mindful daily ritual you do and you're gonna see so much wildlife and things so that's you know there's so many things like that um but in terms of what i really enjoy about nature um
Speaker: and my is is the the work I do in my profession. um i work with a ah group called Young Wilders um and and we take sort of disused agricultural land or sort of any sort of wasteland and and turn it into habitat. And that process of turning things to habitat and getting like huge groups of people who are all excited about the same thing and want to come do it and get involved, seeing those huge groups and then us all just kind of getting stuck in the mud you know and like slipping around in the rain and like trying to get ah hedge saplings and whips in the ground and or spreading wildflower seeds. like All those things are just, there's something profoundly fun about um about creating habitat um in that broader sense.
Speaker: I think it's such a practical thing, isn't it? Like it it yeah gets you off your computer and into the real world, hands dirty. I mean, for me, at least that practice of gardening and the practice of of of being outside in nature, getting your hands dirty or even just observing nature inherently is like a big mind reset.
Speaker: Hugely, yeah. How do you see it? So there's a lot of people out there that live in apartments in cities across the world that have very little connection to the to the environment.
Speaker: was at the pub yesterday. the day before on the weekend and um a wasp which sure okay can sting you or whatever was buzzing around our table and half the table literally got up and physically ran away from the world like across yeah yeah the pub garden and i was sort of sitting there going like oh isn't that a cute little yeah um You know, and they were like, oh, get away, get away. So there's such a disconnect between the natural world and and people's day to day lives. Well, how do you think that we should foster that connection back with the general population? oh gosh.
Speaker: Yeah, it's a big one, isn't it? it's that's That's the real question. yeah and it's It's weird because I do think i think people people love wildlife, people love nature. I don't think that has to be taught. um But I think people don't understand how far connected we are from it. Yeah, I would say for myself personally, I i probably, if you'd asked me as a kid, I i probably would have identified as a nature nerd. um and i And I didn't spend any any time, i didn i couldn't tell you that there were more than one species of finch, you know, i i couldn't ID any trees, I didn't know air anything that was going on around me. um But I had this perception maybe of being a nature nerd because I watched David Attenborough documentaries. And I read lots of wildlife encyclopedias. um But it's and so in one sense, I was knowledgeable, but it's a completely different type of knowledge to actually understanding the land around you and having a tangible relationship with it.
Speaker: um And so I think it's it's teaching people that we we are a part of ecosystems and and actually getting them engaged with it. Yeah. In that sense, ive i um I've been recently teaching a bit of like, and not that I'm i'm particularly good at it, but I am obsessed with it, um is wildlife tracking. I think it's one of the coolest ways we can we can start to engage more deeply with with the natural world. um And i yeah, I think that's that's so fun and such a wonderful tool. Wildlife tracking, in terms of what... ah
Speaker: looking for poops or? Yeah, big, big time poops. That's a big one. Yeah. And footprints, holes. I mean, really i've everything, everything there is is an in an ecosystem has grown in a certain way or been turned up in a certain way because something else was influencing it.
Speaker: So it's just learning to recognize all those different signs. And, um and it's really limitless. I mean, I, yeah, like i say, i'm I'm not, not too good, but when you, when you talk to the experts, it's amazing how much they can read from the land in terms of what's come through recently. but also like historically, you know if you look at a plant community, you can you can see maybe what the landscape used to be like and what the soil pH is like and you know all those things that you're just observing the world around you and and being able to understand who's moving through it and why and what what ecosystems it supports or used to support, um I think is so interesting and really helps people yeah feel like they've got more of a tangible connection with the landscapes. And it's only through that context that you can start to see how much things have and are continuing to deteriorate. So without that, people people don't have that perception to then know that there's something that needs to happen and that we need to act. um
Speaker: So yeah, I think wildlife tracking is is so cool for all that stuff. um But yeah, it's I think... It's getting people to to realize, i yeah, I do this ah this sort of nature connection, um perception of the natural world talk called You Are a Keystone Species, um which is all about just embracing the fact that that we are,
Speaker: still parts of the ecosystem. a keystone species for anyone who doesn't know is an animal that has loads of really vital connections um with and loads of other interactions with loads of ah other species. And therefore it's kind of a vital pillar holding up entire ecosystems. um And we are that we, we, I mean,
Speaker: your listeners will know the the hundreds different ways we have so many impacts on all the wildlife around the world. All the kind of detrimental impacts, really. Yeah, but primarily detrimental, I would say. You know, we've we've got... um Yeah, just and and not through any individual's fault, but just the systems we live in, you know, cause, you know, climate change, as as we've discussed, but also, you know, plastic pollutions, habitat fragmentation, habitat destruction, all these things. um And it can feel really overwhelming when you realise all these different things. And and I think a grieving process comes with that. And people's initial instinct, I think, is to... want to minimize their impact and suddenly shy away from it and, and just reduce, reduce, reduce. um
Speaker: And I completely understand that instinct. And that that was mine as well for a long time. um But I think with that mindset, you are further trying to remove yourself from the ecosystems. And so in a way, you're further disconnecting.
Speaker: And I think that can also be a bit of like a self sacrificial mindset of like, I'm going to completely remove my quality of life for the sake of the natural world. And then that can come with bitterness at other people who aren't doing the same. And it it becomes this this spiral. And I think if we want to make a positive impact on the world, we need to remind ourselves of what it is we're protecting and you know keep enjoying it and keep being outside. um But what what I was leading to say was um that really you you can't start having a positive impact on the world until you you really embrace the fact that you do have an impact.
Speaker: And it's not so much about reducing your impact, but altering it and and embracing um getting involved in ecosystems and really um really yeah being a part of them. And and that's what wildlife conservation is. you know but If you don't embrace that you're impacting things, then then they'll just keep declining. We can only intervene in a positive sense if we accept that we do have um i maybe even a responsibility to to get involved and really change things. um So, yeah, I think it's so important for people to learn about ecosystems, but also like you know yeah learn to be a part of them. And don't know, things like like, I don't know, are you into your bird songs?
Speaker: ah To be honest, I'm really bad with birds. i'm Yeah, um I mean, no, that's so fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just thought, yeah, I mean, but but just enjoying them because I'm sure you're out in your garden a lot. um Oh, of course. Yeah, no, of course. You hear them in the morning and And I think just, yeah, just getting into into listening to those things and, um you know, you start to recognize, even if you don't know what species it is, you can start to recognize, okay, that's a noise made by something in distress. That's an alert call versus this is a pretty noise. And, you know, those are the things that,
Speaker: are almost instinctive and innate to us. They're what our ancestors were really brilliant at They're the they're the really the reason that humans are so successful is because our brains are so great at reading ecosystems. And so I think tapping into all of that is really fun for people. And and there's an actual curiosity there and people are ah immediately interested in it because it's what our brains are designed to do so um yeah all of that i think is is a great way for for people to um start to connect um in a way that's deeper than just like i said watching documentaries and um yeah spending time indoors because i do think uh i think there is this weird thing especially trying to commute climate change where where people don't uh
Speaker: I think it's hard to get people to act on things to do with climate change. And one of the reasons is that they view climate change as an outdoor phenomenon and they view themselves as an indoor phenomenon. um And so that's, yeah, it's a really weird one to try and work through. Yeah. I've never thought about it like that before, but yeah, I guess people who do live in apartments and have their air conditioning, they're not affected necessarily by the outside environmental factors. Yeah.
Speaker: And then you get things like plant blindness that come in where people just honestly don't even realise that there's plants around them. um Yeah, yeah. And they don't play a ah role in their world. You know, before you were just, you were kind of mentioning like learning to read the landscape and like where inherently our brains are designed to read landscape and read nature. And I couldn't help but think, and this is something that probably has less of an impact in the UK, but Indigenous cultures around the world, particularly in, you know, Australia,
Speaker: are very very very good and still maintain that skill to read landscape and be able to say that um without you know scientific research and everything like that that uh you know oh the the seasons are changing because this particular uh bee is foraging on this particular flower or um the it's going to start getting warmer because the kind of stars are are aligned at this particular area. and And that's an oral tradition that's kind of been passed down and down. and And I think it's an interesting thing in the context of the UK because the history is just so deep and rich, but often the history that we tell ourselves is that of kings and queens and um politicians and ah conquests and religion and not necessarily of our nature and our natural history which I think has created that divide between us and nature in a way totally yeah yeah yeah i think that's a really interesting observation um And so, so true. ah yeah our own Our own history, like you say, it's it's all like ah you know the battle of Hastings or whatever, you know and and not so much. I think um there's a lot of nature connection if you look through kind of Celtic folklore um and Gaelic stuff more, and then and then maybe it's it's more removed in the kind of more Anglicized um
Speaker: ah traditions and things. um Yeah, that's super interesting. I think that there definitely is a ah thing of um we we maybe appreciate ah nature more more culturally than we do in in a physical sense. Like I know, um I mean, this is this is slightly moving away from history, but it yeah maybe it will be in the history books one day. um We recently had across the UK, you um we have this thing where we're we're changing our banknotes to all have wildlife on and then there's this these huge things of like voting for um you know which which species we want on which banknotes and stuff and it's it's really fun and it's a good way to get people engaged with um with the species and and appreciate them but i do think it's more this sense of like it's an abstract concept rather than you know if we've got we're putting wildlife on our money but no money's really going into actually protecting these species physically it's more just having pictures of them um so yeah it's it's really interesting um and yeah and i'm sure our own history and the way we learn about it and teach is is really um really played into that
Speaker: um Because I'm sure, you know, all all of all of my ancestors being um Welsh and English um yeah would have would have known a thousand years ago how to ID every track and, you know, recognise every plant, know what's edible, know what's poisonous. That knowledge would have been not something um that's that's even specialised. wouldn't even be thousand years ago, you know. It would have been...
Speaker: Yeah, a few hundred even. hundred years ago. People had herb garden fix little ailments they had and teased for upset stomachs and things like that, you know. Yeah. We've lost all of that, I would say. Oh, hugely, hugely. Yeah. with the UK and and like history looking back on things in a political sense, I suppose. there you You've actually been an advocate for the Nature's Rights Bill, which is a private member's bill being introduced into the House of Lords by Green Party peer Baroness Natalie Bennett. Yes. Could you, for people who haven't heard about this bill, could you explain what the bill is and what it would actually mean to give nature legal status and legal rights?
Speaker: I mean, I can give it a go. I think it's a pretty it's a pretty wacky concept. you've You've explained it fairly succinctly there anyway. So one of the biggest issues we have, particularly in the UK, but globally, and why this would be such an important thing is that at the moment, we inherently view landscapes as... valued only by how we can profit off them through the resources we extract. and And under that mindset, the only way you can therefore make money off of land is by like removing the existing habitat, you know by mining or logging trees or
Speaker: you know, and then developing the land for something else. And so this Nature's Rights Bill would introduce the idea that that these ecosystems um and the living world has value beyond financial value. And so I think it could really change the way, hopefully, that we we treat it. Because, you know, i think a lot... i've I've heard people say before, you know, keep keep nature out of politics and things. or you know leave nature alone. But but realistically, politics determines the entirety of what we do on the land. And so if we want to protect nature, we need to we need to put it in in writing and and have laws in place. So this would be things like you know giving rivers their own legal rights. At the moment, you know water companies spew so much crap into our rivers and have very little repercussions for it. and So, so yeah, this would, this would hopefully change things exactly the framework of how I think is somewhat still in up in the air, but this, this kind of introduces that as an idea. And, and I think could be so, so powerful. You know, there's, there's already already been a few cases, I think in New Zealand, they, They gave a mountain rights of their own and things.
Speaker: So there is evidence that it's it's happening and there's a bit of a shift. But um yeah, I think more things heading in that direction is really vital if we're going to stop just incessantly removing habitat where we've got almost none left in the UK anyway.
Speaker: When I've read about the bill, there's often critique on it and basically, ah I'm sure, put forward by people who oppose it that like, this bill just won't get through. It's just, it's silly. Even if it doesn't pass, what impact would this have on the environment? So say the bill failed, but the conversation's been had. Sure, what what can we still gain from this?
Speaker: Yeah, from the from going through the process. I think it it it hopefully highlights to people the it the way that the natural world and the living world is being treated by humans. And I think maybe gives people the idea, because I don't think, no one loves destroying nature, you know, no one's doing that for a laugh, really, I don't think. um hopefully But maybe people don't realize that there's another way.
Speaker: You know, I think people just assume that the status quo will go on forever and that systems will never change. And actually just having an idea put in place, just planting that in someone's head that like, hey, there's a different way to go about this. We could live in different systems. um You know, there are other ways to be. um I think just planting that idea could be really powerful and hopefully will cause a chain reaction of more ideas um and and or or at least give people the idea that in some way systems can change. But just, i mean, in my own in my own work, um it's been so heartening. to Is it in heartening? Inheartening?
Speaker: I don't know what the word is. Heartening. The opposite of disheartening. It's been very uplifting, I guess. um that i yeah i I've sort of put up a few videos about it and it's been amazing to see the response that that um they've gotten and amazing to see that other people feel exactly the same. because I think maybe this gives a platform for people to voice things that they've been feeling for a long time and haven't known how to put into words. um and and so The conversations that I've been having around it are really...
Speaker: ah really amazing and it's so it's so great to just see that there's you know such a vast community of people that that feel the same way and I think ah particularly for me you know I grew up um in ah in a very small village um with not a big sense of community there and I think um where did you grow up I grew up in the new forest So I grew up like surrounded by really cool, wacky ecosystems. so I was very lucky in that sense. um But yeah, there wasn't a great sense of community there. And I think if I hadn't started this ah this social media thing I do now, I would just never know that anyone else felt the same.
Speaker: You know, and that is one of the I mean, there's a lot of things I don't like about social media, but that is one of the things that's really cool is that you can build these communities and and find people that are all all feeling the same thing. And actually, they are out there. And there's so many people that that think that the Nature's Rights Bill is a is a good idea and can see the sense in it. And that is so encouraging for just like what the future of UK landscapes and the the living world might look like.
Speaker: yeah How can people that are listening today get involved with the bill? How can we put our voice behind it and and yeah and hopefully help it pass?
Speaker: Yeah. So, I mean, i so i believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you're not in the UK, there's so sadly not not much you can do because it is UK-centric issue. UK residents, yes.
Speaker: um But if you're a UK resident, um you can go contact your your local MP and um and encourage them to get behind it. Sadly, this is this is not, I think it maybe would would have more of a shot if it was um just the entire country voting in a huge kind of referendum thing. But yeah yes, it's just down to MPs. So it's about 600 people that are making this decision. And as your local representative, they should be, um you know, putting across the opinions that they think are um most highest concern of their um their constituents. did so Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, if if you can contact them and say that you care about this, and a lot of people do, hopefully that will start to start to shift their opinion. um you could book but If you're feeling really keen, book in a meeting and try and see them face to face. I think that's that's the best way to do it, to show them that you're a real person. But obviously that um is a huge time constraint and also more difficult, I think, because you can't ah take time to really put across your thoughts and really think and if they are um of an opposing view to you it can quite quickly become a heated debate and then if you're not well researched it's a bit yeah I've done that a couple times and it's always a bit scary but it's a lot easier and but more time efficient yeah yeah I mean I really don't I'm i'm always a scaredy cat it always it's always It's always a bit of a nightmare, but um yeah, I always, you know, want to do what I can. um
Speaker: But yeah, it's, it's a super, super easy. Yeah. i'm I'm going to put in the link in the show notes um for this episode. I'm going to put a link to find people's local MP. If they don't know who they need to contact, I will. Yeah. i mean, that's that they can go there. They can pop in their address and they can work out exactly who they should be contacting.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. and And, you know, obviously going above and beyond would be to go go see them and actually talk about it. But um in in a more realistic sense, drop an email. You know, someone's got to read that. Hopefully they've got, ah maybe they do it themselves. Maybe they've got an assistant who goes through. And even if the exact words the email don't reach the ah your MP, they will at least hear like, okay, there's been 10 emails about this thing or whatever. it' But i think that I think a lot of the MPs do directly read their emails a lot of the time.
Speaker: and um And my only tip for that really would be, ah I've heard at least that it is not very effective to follow a template. I think people see when it's when it's just this default thing. um And because they've received 16 times. and yeah Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think because it isn't um it isn't exactly a numbers game where if we get if we surpass 10,000 emails and this thing changes because you are trying to change someone's opinion. um Writing from the heart is is always gonna be the most effective thing. and And it doesn't have to be long, but just writing a little something to say, this is who I am.
Speaker: i live here and this is something I really care about. And I hope you do, too, sort of thing. um I think that'd be enough. um and And I think always being polite, probably because they're not going to listen. If you're just immediately angry. Yeah. um But yeah, I mean, the the more emails, the better. I, yeah, I've made a couple of videos about it and, and I don't know for sure, but I think about a thousand people now have clicked the link to send an email. So a thousand emails across the country is is pretty good going.
Speaker: That's amazing. I'm sure, I'm sure from this podcast, maybe we can get a couple more if you're, if you're feeling it. Send, send another email and we can, we can see if we can get this ball rolling. Changing tact, I suppose, a little bit. It has been a bloody hot summer.
Speaker: been so dry. um you're out and about, you're buzzing about the landscape. What are you noticing? What physical changes are you noticing within the landscape at the moment? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, and you know, it's hot when an Australian is telling you because, you know, genuine whole you know, other levels of heat to us. But um ah to be honest, people in Australia have been messaging me and saying,
Speaker: oh 30 degrees what is everyone going on about that's not hot or whatever you know yeah I have to tell them that like it feels I don't know what it is and I haven't can't find evidence of this yeah but 25 degree or 30 degrees here feels like what would be in Australia probably 35 wow yeah yeah so for whatever reason I don't know if there's a UK bump Yeah, for sure. um And so, yeah, it it's just it's hot. It's hot.
Speaker: it's hot It's hot. Yeah. In conclusion, it is really hot. um and And I think one of the one of the contributing factors to that bump is that we like we we have not prepared at You know, our cities are so not resilient to heat. um all of our All of our apartments and things don't have um air conditioning and and are built to be as well insulated as possible, really, to get through cold winters. Exactly. So, yeah. It's absorbing the heat and then like radiating it back at night.
Speaker: It's just terrible. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. um I live on the third floor of an apartment and i it's at the moment it's like i'm it's like I'm a goblin. And when I come on calls, it's because I'm just like living in the dark. I've got my curtains closed and I'm like sheltering the world, but it gets so insanely hot up here.
Speaker: um So yeah, i think I think that is a contributing factor is we're just so underprepared. If you're listening to this show, I have no doubt that you love the natural world, and you will always be keen to bring a little bit more biodiversity into your garden space.
Speaker: Well, I've got a little something for you. I've created the Biodiversity Garden Blueprint, a completely free, professionally designed planting plan that takes the guesswork out of creating a beautiful, wildlife-friendly garden.
Speaker: Inside you'll find the planting plan, packed with 12 UK native species, practical advice on how to support wildlife within your garden, a maintenance guide and much more to help you get started.
Speaker: If you'd like your free copy, just head to thegardenerslodge.co.uk or follow the link in the show notes. I hope it inspires you to create a garden that is as beautiful for you as it is valuable for wildlife.
Speaker: But yeah, in terms of my work, I mean, it's been ah on a purely selfish point of view. I have to do a lot of grass ID um and the grasses are so hard to ID because they're all just brown and dormant or dead um and yeah completely dying over. So that's made that more difficult. Um, but yeah, it's crazy. I mean, there's, I've seen cracks in the ground where the soil has just completely split and is a meter deep, um, because there's just no life in there anymore. Yeah. I suppose you can't really call it, call it soil. If it's life, it's just dirt. Um, and it does just, yeah, no moisture has got in there and the ground's just completely cracking. Um, and yeah, so, so many plants are going over and, um,
Speaker: I think people, yeah, when you see, i think the the grass going brown has been something people have witnessed and has been quite a quite a visual indicator of what's going on. i don't know if people realise how much that just tells a small part of a much broader story. um yeah Because the grass is going going dormant. That's kind of what they're designed to do in a sense. That's their their backup plan. Yeah, the grass will be okay.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. the grass will The grass will come back for sure, yeah. um But um you know there there are plenty of other plants that will have deeper roots so can access more water. um So their reaction won't be as immediate. But um over time, they're going to really be be feeling the impacts. And we're seeing so many trees wilting and um um people call it a premature autumn, don't they When all the leaves start falling off just because the trees can't.
Speaker: Yeah, they just can't. and and put the resources in the leaves. Correct. That process is a natural, it's not like the leaves are just getting crisped by the sun or anything like that. That is the tree is in stress and is defoliating to preserve itself. So this isn't expelling as much water through its leaves. Yeah, that's perfect. That's exactly what it is. And it and it's um yeah, like you said, it's a natural response. So it's it's in some senses what it's meant to do. But these are all indicators that our plants are in stress and they're struggling. um And yeah and um if this continues, um you know, things will start dying off. And it's
Speaker: bad for so many reasons i mean i think i think people forget that like habitat is is just a fancy word for a bunch of plants you know yeah so and and and plants uh um you know they they have such a different way of living to um to wildlife obviously because they can't move um so so they're the first things to feel the brut the brunt of of climate change really, I think, because they they can't go take shelter, they can't run away, they are just there or or they're no longer there. um And in a lot of cases, I think they will be dying off sadly. And when the habitat disappears, obviously then the wildlife is next to follow, because then there isn't anywhere to take shelter.
Speaker: Yeah, with these native plants being particularly the most receptive to this, then that also makes space for more more invasive species to take hold, or at least non-natives, which are going to be doing less to contribute to our ah ecosystems and less for the wildlife and stuff. So I do a lot of work surveying badgers, and I've seen loads of loads of stuff with badgers really struggling in the heat, and that's the immediate impact. But in the long term, it might really change the composition of our of our landscape. So yeah, it's a big concern.
Speaker: One thing that I've been noticing is that the larger tree species are obviously starting to feel the effects, wilting, defoliating, all of that kind of thing. But it's the saplings and the kind of mid-story, which haven't got their roots so deep yet, that are dying and have yeah died. And I think people make the mistake of thinking, oh, it's just a younger tree, like whatever.
Speaker: But I think they need to think about the fact that that younger tree that's maybe only... five, ten years, five, seven years old. Yeah.
Speaker: Is the next large tree. So if you're losing that end in the middle. Yeah. You then got a gap for the next kind of generation of larger tree species in, you know, 50, 70 years.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. That's such a good point. the Yeah, we need the regeneration there. Trees, sadly, aren't infinite in their existence. um And so you need the new generations coming in. And for you know a thriving thriving woodland, really, you you want all... um all different levels of of age um present within the different stories because uh they all provide slightly different niches for for different wildlife and so if you take one of them out there's a bunch of things that won't be supported but yeah if if we're not if we're not having new trees grow gonna quite quickly lose lose our forests um and and then if we just start planting them all in the same way then then you've developed a plantation rather than a forest you know The real magic is the fact that you've got all these different you've got decaying wood and dead trees and brand new saplings all in the same space. That's that's what makes it a forest.
Speaker: So, yeah. Your work with young wilders, you obviously see rewilded landscapes of which, from what I've seen, they those landscapes are actually coping a little bit better with these really dry conditions. Is that your experience?
Speaker: Um, yes. i I mean, that's definitely what, uh, what I've seen in the, um, in sort of reports and things, it seems like generally rewilded areas are are retaining their green better. And I think that makes sense, right? Cause you, all your plants are, um, not being managed by humans and therefore they don't have any, any other stresses to deal with. So if they've only got the drought and that's what they're focusing on. Whereas if you're, if you're constantly, you know, trimming your hedges and stuff, um, that's like effectively a really,
Speaker: dense browsing bra grazing or browsing pressure on on the plant. And then if it's dealing with that alongside um drought, um then it's just too many stresses and they start dying. So yeah, these these ecosystems that um that are a bit more left alone, I think, or or at least managed for the benefit of um of the wildlife seem to be more resilient to drought as well. And I mean, you see that just in like road verges and things, the ones that have been mown a lot are all dead. And the ones where, you know, councils can't quite access their mower around the back of a, of um of a roadside barrier or something those are the ones that are still green um so there definitely is more more resilience there i think uh you know if you if you mow grass at the top it also stops the group the roots getting lower so you know obviously more shallow roots aren't going to access as much water um yeah but yeah i i mean most of most of the sites i work on personally
Speaker: are right at the beginning of their rewilding journey. So at the moment they are really struggling, but we're we're hoping in the in the coming years we'll we'll be able to turn them into much more resilient landscapes, which would be really cool.
Speaker: Yeah. But initially when I suppose you're setting up a rewilded landscape, you might be planting some trees. Yeah. When you're at the start of that process, What are you looking at doing to be able to establish the the kind of ecosystem as a whole? Because I imagine these you know these landscapes that are dealing better have ah with the drought have, yeah you're right, that decaying matter, the leaf fall, um rotting wood that's all feeding the microbial life within that soil. But obviously when you're starting out rewilding a landscape,
Speaker: You don't necessarily have that, right? So is there a way or is there a management scheme that ah you and your team implement that kind of imitates that process? One of the things that I i really love, i'm I'm fairly new to this this job. um And my previous job was working in in ecological consultancy. um And the thing I really...
Speaker: have been loving about ah this kind of more um habitat creation or rewilding, whatever you want to call it, nature recovery um side of of um of protecting the natural world um has been that you don't have to do the like one size fits all thing. Every single project is is completely different um and therefore they are going to benefit best from completely different things. um and And it's really nice to work somewhere where you're not boxed in by legislation that that stops you from doing what you know works best. Whereas when was working in ecological consultancy, there was this huge issue in my mind, at least of kind of
Speaker: And it makes sense, but um you know you you have to you have to make these systems foolproof because anyone can be doing them. And therefore, it is a one size fits all. Here's what you do. And then and then it just never is as good as it could be if you were using professional judgment. um So it's really nice to be in a space where where you've got the freedom to do that. But so, you know, it just completely depends on the site. And that's kind of the adventure of it is step one is go to the site and see what the heck you've got there. Try and figure out what the problems might be. Yeah, exactly. Reading the landscape, um looking at kind of, oh, wait, there's a little there's a little dry divot here. Maybe this used to be a pond. um Maybe we've got I don't know if if you've got the same in in Australia, I'd be interested here. But here in the UK,
Speaker: it And I didn't find this out until like fairly, ah fairly recently. But we have like drainage pipes underneath like every field in the UK. And no one knows where they are because they were put in during like the sort of Victorian times to make sure that, that you know, there wasn't water being retained in the land so that it wasn't wetland and agriculture could be, you know,
Speaker: Oh, right. They've drained. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And so so like, yeah, everything's just drained to an insane extent. it's It's funny. i um I'm actually looking for property ah to live in and visiting some large scale property to live in. And yeah,
Speaker: It's interesting. I mean, obviously for farmland, yes, that's a good thing. That's what people, they want their land to be arable land and not a swamp. But it's funny that all the listings and all the real estate agents kind of go like, it's drained land. And I'm kind of like, well, okay, well, good, but not good. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: ah And particularly if we're going to keep getting droughts, you know ah the world is not the same as it was in the 1800s. But yeah, so so it's it's thinking about things like, OK, is this ground drained? And OK, we've got a little bit of ah a divot here that maybe used to be a pond. Maybe we start doing some wetland creation. We start blocking those drain drains and trying to slow the process of water moving through the landscape.
Speaker: um and And I think with that sort of thing, often there's there's kind of negative perceptions um of rewilding. And it almost always um is actually positive. And in the case of um you know creating wetland and slowing water through the landscape, yes, it will create more resilience with drought, because obviously the ground is retaining water for longer. But um then people will be like oh, but then you're going to you know flood everywhere. um But but equally in situations where there's intense rainfall, it slows the movement of water through the landscape. So you don't get this huge wash of rain coming through the land all in one go and and causing a flash flood. You've got this nice, slow permeation of of liquid. um So, you know, ah for people and for the natural world, having more resilient ecosystems is is a benefit. um
Speaker: so yeah it's it's just about reading landscape and seeing what's there yeah maybe we've got some it's it's also all about the context isn't it of like okay we've got some woodland nearby um i've been doing a lot of um working in in sort of calcareous grasslands um that are kind of now just you know modified and gross but deep down we know they're supposed to or you know used to be these gorgeous wildflower meadows so it's about restoring those um there's you know yeah everything is different and there's so much we can do and i'm definitely not an advocate for rewilding everything all the time it it definitely has its has its place um and people do need to use the land you know and i and you know 100 we need to be supporting our farmers more now than ever um so you know i'm not i'm not saying we need to rewild everything but um it definitely does have its benefits um for everyone um But even in those farming systems, there's room for improvement in terms of practices. Totally.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think yeah I look at it, it's an interesting thing, right? So I obviously live in the UK now just for your context. And yeah but I um come from Australia. um And in Australia, we have adopted ah basically a UK farming system and implemented into a landscape that is just like...
Speaker: Mars in comparison. um yeah And so like a lot of damage has been done in Australia because of that. But then now, but but we also don't have hedgerows, right? So yeah in Australia, they've just like knocked down the native bush and turned it to grassland so that the cattle can feed or turned it into like big, big farm, big, big ag kind of processes. um But now there's a push actually, because that's created a rise in salinity within the soil. So salt within the soils, within the farmland, which obviously salt plants doesn't grow. It's all bad. There's actually a push to now install, I suppose,
Speaker: rewilded hedgerows that aren't managed as a hedge i'm trying to explain this in a succinct way but like more of like ah a linear scrub sort of exactly yeah and and having a kind of variety of species within these scrubs that like will follow the sides of paddocks and and and um pasture or whatever that will actually be able to withdraw salinity from the soil and help the farm be managed in a more kind of ecologically friendly way while providing real habitat.
Speaker: Future Michael here. I wanted to drop in and give you a little bit more information and get this right. You could tell I was fumbling for the right words. um So what I'm talking about here is shelter belts. They not only pull salts and control salinity within the soil, but they are improve biodiversity within the area, of course, because we're planting a beautiful array of trees. They also protect soil from erosion, which is a big problem around Australian farms where soil has been continuously tilled and the structure of it is destroyed. But they protect crops, livestock, and of course, homes from ah strong winds. I actually have an episode which was very early on with Darren Thorpe, which I will link below. her husband, Bill, actually runs a company helping farmers create shelter belts on large, large, large scale. So if you were interested in hearing a little bit more about that, she dives into it a bit on our episode together.
Speaker: i mean i don't want to get anyone angry here. You can certainly tell me your opinions on this. The hedgerow thing is super interesting to me here because, yes, it obviously helps build a very managed kind of food source for wildlife, habitat for birds and whatnot. But again, it is very managed um and if managed in a poor way, kind of can harm wildlife as well. Yeah. um do what do you think Do you think there is a space where we could almost let the hedgerows grow and expand them?
Speaker: I mean, ah to to an extent, if you just put like a hedge intended for hedge saplings into the ground and never did any management, they would just become a line of trees. yeah So, that you know, there is some management required there. um But I do think I personally love a hedge when it is all native species and it's really healthy. um and and it's And I think with the idea of rewilding, people might be like, well, it's not a natural naturally occurring thing. It requires management and therefore, you know,
Speaker: what's it doing here? Or they if they're anti-rewilding, they might be like, you're going to destroy all the hedges. um And that's not at all the case. I think the it's really important to highlight with rewilding. The idea isn't to like just rewind the clock and make these ecosystems as they were 2,000 years ago whatever. um yeah yeah the idea It's just the philosophy of having ah being process-driven. So rather than looking at a specific species, you're restoring natural processes so that ecosystems can thrive.
Speaker: And I think a lot of it requires being pragmatic. um you know in in ah In a perfect world, we'd have untouched thriving ecosystems and we wouldn't require hedges. um But in the UK particularly, and and maybe increasingly so in in Australia as well, we fragmented all our habitats. And so having you know a hedgerow or a linear scrub, like you were saying, um just joins things back together a little bit and allows wildlife to permeate through the landscape and and find each other. um And also provides a place to nest and and get food and all those things that you were saying. um
Speaker: So yeah, I think it's just about finding, and like I said, no, no one size fits. So, you know, just literally anything that can work, we should be doing, I think, yeah um yeah wherever it works. um So, so yeah, I, I really like a hedge, um but, ah but I do think most hedges we see aren't good hedges. So yeah, it, it there's, there's absolutely nuance there and it it requires, but, but I think, also What makes a bad hedge then?
Speaker: What makes a bad hedge? um If it's not diverse, um if it's just got one species in it, then it's it's not going to be doing doing so much to provide. If it's overly flailed as well, I mean, we see it in the UK so much, these like completely dead hedges because someone's tried to make it perfectly like cubic um yeah in its in its cross section, which obviously is not... ah not naturally occurring and it's going to kill off the hedge. But yeah, if it's got ah a natural shape to it, it's got a good density, it's got ah a really biodiverse um kind of set of species within it, um then then it's going to be providing for lots of different species through the year because, you know, different berries and flowers will be coming up all the way through spring and summer. um
Speaker: So, yeah, i think I think a good hedge. can can go a long way. And the other thing about it is, um you were saying about the management, um and in some ways,
Speaker: ah yes, maybe that can be negative. um But I think it it it also is a great way of um getting people to have, like we were saying earlier, that tangible relationship with the land and the management, you know, same as same as gardening and whatnot. it's It's about connecting with the land. And so if we're doing things that require a bit of upkeep, maybe that helps people to um build a relationship with the land and feel a sense of stewardship over it. um And, and yeah, develop more of a tangible relationship and watch the changes that are happening. um The only real issue, I guess there is, is um maybe not many people are are doing, doing the management or know how to do the management in a way that is positive for the wildlife.
Speaker: Yeah. So, yeah. But wouldn't it be cool? I think about this all the time, dude. Wouldn't it be cool if all of the, Like the the default job for young people, instead of being like a barista or barman or, you know, whatever is most accessible in that sense, working at McDonald's, was land management. Like we would all get to know the species just through, wouldn't it be cool if, you know, people are scared nowadays, and probably rightfully so, of like,
Speaker: of AI taking taking a lot of jobs. yeah I want a rule where any company who who is using AI, actually, i by the way, I'm not an economist, so maybe this completely doesn't work. This is just my my ideal scenario. But wouldn't it be cool if if any work being done by an AI, the company has to pay the AI thing a wage, the same as the productiveness of ah of a real human. And that money then goes in to paying for jobs that aren't inherently profitable, like working in healthcare care or working in in conservation. you know if If our default jobs that people were doing was was land management for the betterment of of wildlife, we would all be so much more deeply connected to the land and our landscapes would be so much better off for it.
Speaker: That's a really interesting concept, actually. And I think in a way, I mean, look, again, not an economist at all. Yeah. But in a way, it does almost solve that like AI problem of like, they're all going to take our jobs. But it's like if we're actually moving away and creating jobs that yeah are outside and in nature, it kind of almost would tilt the balance and tilt the scales to yeah people having that connection and people having that appreciation and love for the natural world. And maybe then the climate crisis, maybe I'm getting too carried away. No, may maybe maybe we but this is the next, after the ah Nature's Rights Bill, we'll we'll try and put this one through, see if we can get some backing. for But I mean, basically, the conclusion is, it would be wonderful if more people, ah as they're growing up, as their first jobs, could work in in some form of land management, I think. I agree. Just gardening, even land management, um, conservation more generally, like, I think, I think you're right. And I think that like, that basically does answer yet does, does answer that question of like, how do we reconnect people back into, into the landscape as a part of it, as opposed to being, um, withdrawn from it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rhys, where can people get involved in what you're doing and, and find you online? Oh, okay, here we go. If you are if you're between the ages of 18 and 30, you can come along to Young Wilders events. And I can't stress enough that this is like the coolest company ever. and They're a nonprofit. And and for for about a year before I had a job with them, I was just telling people how cool they are because I was just a fan. I'm like i'm like weirdly obsessed with my own bosses because I think they're the coolest people in the world. um yeah they they They saw the problems with like biodiversity loss and they saw that young people, while caring about climate change and caring about biodiversity loss, um had the least agency over ah over these issues and and the least
Speaker: autonomy to feel like they could do anything about it. um so So they've created Young Wilders to be a space where young people can, ah you know, have a space to reconnect with nature, um do some land management stuff, but also be part of the decision making process. You know, none of really i go and survey land. And then we bring young people on to tell me,
Speaker: what they think they should they want the landscape to be. and you know so My job is really to just be a facilitator more than ah more than actually be a decision maker. And that's so cool because then it's never on the responsibility of one person. It's just groups of people coming together to think about what we could do with the land um and what we dream it to be like. It's also giving a whole bunch of people agency over a landscape as opposed to just a job to plant trees or whatever it might be. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And that goes back to that nature connection because you feel like you've got a stewardship over the land and you're looking after it. um So, yeah, it's this really beautiful thing. um And, that yeah, you can you can check out Young Wilders. They throw events online.
Speaker: all through the year, um which you can find on Eventbrite and on their website and stuff. And they're so much fun. um And if you're be outside the 18 to 30 age bracket, then ah please still go get involved in in some sort of ah volunteering or other thing if you do have the time, because I think it is a wonderful... things again, or gardening, just anything to kind of connect with the land in that way. um But me, myself, I make videos online all about kind of everything we've discussed today. um And the name of the account is Rees Touring Nature to be like me wandering around nature, but then also restoring nature. And I want to explicitly explain that because no one ever gets it. and I'm very proud of that.
Speaker: I love your content and um I followed you for some time, to be honest. And I love much the way that you break things down, make things simple, make things fun. Even, you know, you're not just presenting, as we were talking about at the very start, hardcore facts about how shit everything is. You're actually giving hope quite often. Yeah, I mean, that's the that's that's the aim. Well, thank you so much for your time. I've i've loved this chat.
Speaker: Oh, thank you. this This has been wonderful. And I'm and i'm looking forward to to checking out some more. You're a wonderful interviewer and the really important topics. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. If you like the show, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button, tell a friend or two, or maybe even give the show five-star rating and a review.
Speaker: If you want more gardeners lodge content, you can find our website, our Instagram and our TikTok in the show notes below this episode. The gardeners lodge podcast is a growing media production.
