Transcript
Speaker: Today we live in an era where almost everything that we had to do have to do has to do with space. You're saying that sometime in the future on your roadmap is also a desire to make small modular nuclear reactors? What we have today is not market dominance. What we have today is market dependence. You can't replicate SpaceX's business model. Manunayar is the founder of EtherealX. EtherealX has raised $26 million dollars to build India's first fully reusable rocket.
Speaker: This amazing rocket will launch satellites into orbit, return to Earth and be ready to fly again within a week. It is essentially a skyscraper taking off into orbit and you're bringing the entire building back in soft landing.
Speaker: It is not an easy task. And you're the only one who's building a rocket in which the upper stage is coming back or there are others also? The next two decades will define our civilization's future from three major standpoints. one is going to be space.
Speaker: One is going to be...
Speaker: Manu Nair, welcome to the Founder Thesis podcast. You're the founder of a space tech startup, EtherealX. You were recently in the news for a big round of funding as well. ah Before we get into the details of what you're building, um I want to take this opportunity to...
Speaker: help my audience understand why space matters. Why is ah SpaceX going public with a valuation above $1 trillion? Why are investors so bullish on space? so Make the case for space tech as a field.
Speaker: Thank you, Akshay. Thank you for having me on this show. um I think it is important for, i mean, it's great to start with that question because I think it's important for not just us, but for everybody to understand that today we live in an era where everything that we do has to do with all almost everything that we had to do have to do has to do with space.
Speaker: Initially, we utilized space. I mean, if you look at history of how we started in a way, commercializing orbits or trading them as real estates now.
Speaker: Initially, when we started, it was during the Cold War era. i mean, at that point, it was about having a more dominating power or advantage in war strategy.
Speaker: which then evolved towards several benefits. It's the e equivalent element of how a lot of Formula One tech comes handy on road cars. it Similarly, most military and space technology comes handy in a lot of different applications that developed for those.
Speaker: So if you look at think about it, the first ever rocket that we sent into orbit was not necessarily a rock rocket. It was a larger missile. like From that, we just pointed it du ah up upwards and we sh shot it into orbit.
Speaker: So we live in now, if you dial it 60 years forward, now we live in an era where you have different classifications of rockets, you have different orbits that are utilized for different purposes.
Speaker: so But I think we would it it's better if we can start with launchers because that is where my area of expertise is and then we can also go about ah different orbits and why they matter and also um in a sense of how satellites also evolved into now an everyday part of our lives.
Speaker: so Am I right in understanding that essentially the the money in space is satellites data collection that are we yeah so we get access to rich data If you're thinking about from an end user perspective, as in how a common man is going to benefit from space, yes, it's from satellite.
Speaker: But who's going to get those satellites into orbit? There comes a question about a strategic autonomy for a sovereign nation or how unipolar access to orbit is and why having a unipolar access to orbit is a problem, right? What does that mean, unipolar access to orbit? Just simplify that.
Speaker: As in, if you think about it today, over 85% of all launches come from, or all payloads going into orbit come from one vehicle and one country, right?
Speaker: Wow. Okay. So from SpaceX and the United States. if you If you look at it more carefully, SpaceX is just doing everybody else a favor by letting them on their vehicle.
Speaker: They have their own job to do with Starlink. whatnot, but um you, so it is a very skewed, unipolar access to our, that is not how the future of space should look like.
Speaker: We do have a multipolar access to orbit because what we have today is not market dominance, right? What we have today is market dependence. and That is not how the, you know, that's not we how we envision the future of space.
Speaker: So, turning it back to your question, um so ever since the first rocket and why space matters in the first place, like I said, after we put the first ever satellite into orbit with the Sputnik and stuff, as humanity, we've done several feet with space.
Speaker: We've gone to gone on to put a man on the moon. We've put an international space station in orbit. We've had people do extravehicular activity walks in orbit.
Speaker: We've had the robotic arm from the ISS capturing satellites. so and we've And then now we've deployed the James Webb telescope, a super ultra-high-functioning deep space telescope.
Speaker: We've done a lot of space activities and collectively put, I think, over it memory into far. Okay. on the So that's a that that's a lot of so if you ah look at think about it deeply it is a over twenty thousand tons of mass that existed in orbit has gone out of on Earth has gone into orbit.
Speaker: Now that's a civilizational level effect. That's a planetary level effect that you're bringing. So what like, ah what but why are we doing it? what How does it matter? Now, this is where ah the real deal is. So today, navigation, telecommunication, network, border security, surveillance, maritime operations, agri-tech, tracking, livestock, forest tracking, city planning, all of this depends on satellite data.
Speaker: Banks are deciding whether or not to loan farmers based on satellite data of soil fertility. That's the age we live in today. You're able to track vessels, you're able to track missiles, everything from orbit.
Speaker: So in a way, the more assets you have in orbit, the more strategic autonomy you have as a nation or as a civilization from a larger perspective.
Speaker: you're still in ah we're still a few decades away from looking at it holistically as a civilization. i mean, space is the only uniting frontier we have as humanity today.
Speaker: We've already created the divides on Earth. Orbits are the only place we have one uniting frontier. And The vision for us at the Guild was also that to keep it that way.
Speaker: We don't want a unipolar access to orbit leading to dominance in orbit. That is not the way to go. what What is the Guild? You mentioned that...
Speaker: Yeah, so the the company is called Ethereal Exploration Guild. for for So the founding vision was for us to make sure that we're able to catalyze civilizational progress rather than halting it.
Speaker: right So the ah that this also comes from a point because ah India also has a good geographical advantage. We have a beautiful peninsula region. We are closer to the equator. We can do all orbits.
Speaker: And it was great that you also asked me about those orbits because see, there are, um when you look at um Earth as a whole, And you see, okay, satellites are put at what?
Speaker: ah Different satellites that are meant for different different purposes are put in different orbits, right? So if you look at it, low Earth orbit, which is roughly about standard we use 400 cross 400 kilometers from Earth.
Speaker: you But what you can define Earth orbit is up to 2,000 kilometers is low Earth orbit. Then you have the geostationary orbit, which is about 35,000 kilometers, right? And then you you also have the medium Earth orbit right in the middle of these, which is between that 2,000 to 35,000.
Speaker: So, but what are these orbits? Why do we use these orbits? You look at low Earth orbit, These are predominantly used for your super high speed internet connection.
Speaker: Starlink is a good example, right? The International Space Station is in in the low Earth orbit. You have Earth observation satellite. I think International Space Station is about 350 kilometers at altitude, which is in LEO.
Speaker: Then you have Earth observation satellites that do the function of imaging, and and Those are also in low earth orbit. So a larger commercial perspective today is super active in low earth orbit. Low Earth orbit gives you like low latency and like for for communication, you need that. solution Perfect. hot Or it gives you higher resolution like for from an imaging perspective. Absolutely. Hanji.
Speaker: Got it. Okay. The idea for you is to like, these are applications where you you want to stay closer to Earth to maximize your efficiency, right? that Those are the low Earth orbit stuff. Like you have EO and network high-speed internet and ISS and stuff.
Speaker: um But the archetype of these satellites typically are that you, because they're closer to Earth and they're more influenced by Earth's gravity, and you're moving towards another where you want satellites to be more efficient, right? The tech is getting better every three, four years. So there is no point of building a satellite that will last in low Earth orbit for 10 years.
Speaker: because the tech will surpass by then. So you want us to stay in orbit for ideally about four years, five years max, and then you deorbit them and then set, so cycle your up mass. So that is how low satellites will typically work. And then you have the geostationally orbit satellites where you have, um these satellites typically kind of orbit or and over the equator and you would prefer that you maintain ah the same speed of earth's rotation so because satellites are we utilize the geostationary orbit typically for telecommunications weather monitoring broadcasting so you ideally want it
Speaker: in a way fixed ah towards one particular area, and then you're rotating it. The satellite is moving around at the same um a speed as of the Earth's rotation. right And then you have medium Earth orbit that I mentioned about, which is between LEO and GEO. That is basically, I think the best example would be GPS, navigation systems.
Speaker: Then you have sun synchronous orbits. ah In a way, there is a very polar orbit. So ah you you you utilize this where you want to ensure that a satellite is passing over the same spot over and over at the same at the same local time. So if you want to do a consistent imaging of one particular area over a particular time every day, then SSO is excellent for you.
Speaker: so Though there are these there are different orbits such as this, today, couple of the satellite operators also just go to whatever orbit. They design their product based on what is the highest available slots for launch.
Speaker: So that is not but that is not how it should work. You should have supply and then the satellite operators should build what they really want to build so that they are able to extract the best because at end of the day, end user is benefiting from the end user application of these satellite applications, right? All of these. So if they are unable to get to the orbit that they really want to, then you're not really doing a service to humanity.
Speaker: So we we want to make sure that that's what I mean by saying that we want a multipolar access to orbit and these different orbits, like I said, They're there they're they in our everyday life. Like, we just don't realize it. You know, I'm wondering, like, you have the air traffic controllers who make sure that flights don't crash into each other. how does that happen when you have these, I don't know, maybe 10,000, 100,000, I don't know how many satellites are there in Leo. How how do the... ah
Speaker: How do they stay steer away from each other and not crash into each other all the time? Just like how you have ATC, like you mentioned, every nation also ah has has their own set of ground systems, ground support equipment or ground stations, as we call it.
Speaker: And every satellite operator who is also putting their satellite in orbit is also consistently tracking their satellite. They also have their own health monitoring system on their satellites. um They are they' consistent. So I think today, us has the highest because the U.S. has the highest number of satellites, they have the highest number of deep they have the highest data of also satellites in orbit and they you can also buy that data from i think it's the us air force or the space force but earlier it it was ah you you could buy it from the the united united states air force that data
Speaker: as to where those satellites would be because then you can utilize those. So we we call them, ah we call this as space, in a way, situational awareness or domain awareness.
Speaker: And we have now in India also, we have start startups that are doing phenomenal job like Diganthara, who are ah building specifically for tracking stuff like this, right? And so you you can,
Speaker: Because like you mentioned, this is a very important activity. You're looking at a few thousands of satellites that are now going to tens of thousands of satellites, ah out of which I think we have about 9000 active satellite satellites. i Don't quote me, but I think that's around there, and the number. but yeah And this number will only climb.
Speaker: so And your ah typical orbital velocity or delta V that a launch vehicle is supposed to give is about 7.8 kilometers per second, right? And you you're looking at satellites orbiting at super high speed.
Speaker: One small hiccup amongst two satellites can start off a chain reaction because if there is a collision then the debris that it creates, creates a higher probability of collision for the next, right? So, and it is like a pile up on a freeway.
Speaker: So it's a chain reaction. is it's It'll be logarithmic function. and You'll be, you basically, we live in a time where, um to, what but if we set off a chain reaction,
Speaker: with all the active satellites, then and we put more satellites into orbit, we'll probably lock ourselves in orbit. We'll probably lock ourselves on our planet. And we wouldn't be able to... below the debris before Well, so we don't want to get there. So I think this is also being taken care of. We we have several ground stations across the globe, and we have startups working, ah companies and startups working on these solutions that are...
Speaker: that are actively tracking all assets as well as dead assets, as well as debris in orbit with super high precision. Because in this, latency is a problem.
Speaker: You're in seconds and microseconds. So you can't, they're doing a phenomenal job with this. So yeah, that's also being done. ah Elon Musk ah talks of data centers in space. Is that viable?
Speaker: It is viable from a, i mean, the math can, math, the engineering can work, but the real question is, does the operational efficacy, is the operational overload actually worth it, right? So, um I don't think I'm today in a position to actually come in because I'm not really fully informed about how well it can work. Maybe someone with a super high ah launch cadence can put a few things in orbit, but I think it is just over complicating things.
Speaker: I think we need to simplify stuff. see what's the largest concern for data centers to operate in orbit. And I would like to also take a moment to say how we are also looking at ourselves moving forward, right? So um i at the Guild, we,
Speaker: like I said, our foundational vision was to is to solve the hardest problems are are our civilization will face and to catalyze civilization progress. Today, we start with our space.
Speaker: Tomorrow, we'll also move towards, once we solve for launchers and space, we'll move towards energy. And the reason being, who the next biggest crisis and the reason why we're also trying to take data centers in orbit is is for power, right? your you Energy and ah solving for the grid is a big challenge. People don't want to, you can't force the government to change the grid.
Speaker: Fortunately, India's grid is ah a little much better electricity grid we have. so we ideally the way we see it the way we will solve for it will not be by putting it in orbit of course we'll put assets in orbit that's great but the longer term solution like because one small accident is enough to lock the civilization then on Earth.
Speaker: And that is not the the way we are looking at it. So, because no matter how much you optimize, there are certain things that will be beyond your control. One rogue asteroid that ah or satellite or a comet that is he just probably a size of, you know, ah probably about 15 centimeters or 10 centimeters in length crashes by and you're creating an entire debris in orbit.
Speaker: No, that's not that ah debris cloud. So because data centers are going to be huge swans, swans. and The way we are going to look at it is by building small module reactors, localized energy, small module reactors that are fusion-based, at localized energy, specifically towards data centers.
Speaker: um And I think because at the end of the day, localized ai and AI on device is going to make more sense. And that would mean localized power generation and compute.
Speaker: And that's the way we will go for it. So you're saying that sometime in the future on your roadmap is also a desire to make small modular reactors, nuclear reactors?
Speaker: Wow. Okay. Wow. That's crazy ambitious. Amazing. Okay. ah Okay. So, okay. we We spoke of space orbits. Now tell me about going to space. Is going to space same as going to orbit? Or like, ah what is the difference um yeah it is um Deep space is different, but I think the moment you cross the common line, you're almost like then you're in space. That's the definition. So you step out of common line and you're in orbit and you're in space.
Speaker: um It is the same. you can also because I don't know how beautifully the grand design has been put, but but um it's It's funny to see like how at a number around 100 kilometers is where you know you just and escape gravity and you experience microgravity.
Speaker: It's such a beautiful thing to think about. But when it's such a grand design, right? So um yes, i typically technically you are in space, but deep space is a different story. like you People usually misunderstand misconceptualize the distance between moon and earth right so it is actually a very huge distance how many kilometers like we spoke of the geo as 35 000 kilometers how far to the moon so 384 000 kilometers and that's a good good that's from center to center
Speaker: yeah ah Okay. So that's a that's a big distance. And ah i think you could actually stack up all planets between the distance of Earth and Moon. Oh, wow. Okay.
Speaker: Okay. um fun And you would still have space left. It is a pretty huge distance and we actually discount that. so um So i at least I consider, because Moon is a close neighbor of ours, we don't...
Speaker: um ideally see it deep space, but it is in a way deep space, right? So you are actually traversing a good amount of distance from your home planet. And the thing that humanity has been on it, and come back, that is no small field.
Speaker: And we're going back again. So it is it is phenomenal. well I think we live in a very exciting time. to actually the next two decades will define our civilization's future from three major standpoints.
Speaker: One is going to be space, one is going to be energy, and the other is going to be how we are going to hone towards, how we are going to move towards a better intelligence than ours that we have today.
Speaker: So, yeah, it's going to be super, super important. Okay. So tell me about going to space, like launching, which is the area that you specialize in?
Speaker: So um launch, if you look at it broadly, you can classify launchers into four broad vehicles, which is going to be small lift vehicle.
Speaker: Then you have the medium lift launch vehicles. Then you have heavy lift launch vehicles. Then you have super heavy lift launch vehicles. So a small lift launch vehicle is something that can something that will, a rocket that can carry between one kg up to about three tons, three and a half, four tons. Then you have the medium lift rockets that can carry between three and a half, four tons up to, you know,
Speaker: 25 tons and then you have ah the heavy lift which is above 25 tons and then you have the super heavy lift that crosses about 65 tons I guess so you if you think about super heavy lift vehicle the only thing that ah the only vehicle that act I can actually think about that as operational is a Starship right And that's a my massive engineering fee.
Speaker: It is essentially a skyscraper taking off into orbit and you're bringing the entire building back in soft landing. So that is a massive, massive piece of engineering.
Speaker: And i think that that that has gone to show um what all we can actually do with the right kind of optimization and engineering. So it's it's it's it's actually phenomenal.
Speaker: But yeah, these are the broad four classifications. And ah today you have the small lift vehicles and medium lift vehicles that predominantly are utilized for commercial launches.
Speaker: We are focusing more on the medium lift segment. but bigot and But there is obviously you have market for also small satellite rockets they're for dedicated launches.
Speaker: We focus on medium lit for the mass launches. I think the market will predominantly be with the segment for the next decade and a half and two before the baseline for deeper um deep space missions is set globally. So once that is done, then I think the heavy lift segment will begin.
Speaker: yeah. and yeah the the The issue with setting up a super large rocket for low Earth orbit is that the economics doesn't really work very well.
Speaker: So um what I mean by that is in the case of Starship, i if I remember correctly, see the Elon's vision is to colonize Mars, right? So that vehicle is perfectly designed for Martian and lunar economics.
Speaker: So what I mean by that is if you have, let's say, 1,000... So I think the plan was to do 1,000 launch, Starship launches a year and to do 10,000 over the next decade, right? So the manufacturing capacity, the the entire capacity building that is done to enable that.
Speaker: So when you do that, the amortized cost per kg that a satellite operator will have to pay to be you know for the vehicle to be operational profitably for low Earth orbit will never make sense.
Speaker: So that is like, um because then they'll have to always fly full. which will never be the case for such a large vehicle, then the the economics basically will not work out.
Speaker: So it is like us taking a train to go 10 kilometers. And if it's only 20 people taking the train, so it doesn't, the the the operational ah the cost of it doesn't really make sense.
Speaker: but it is excellently built for Lunar. And now they've also shifted their focus towards Lunar Base, Lunar missions, as well as Martians. So that that vehicle is perfectly designed for.
Speaker: We'll move into that once we've set the base first for the rest of the world, steve first we need to stop playing catch up, right? So we need to first get to a point where we are actually, so that's why we're building for what's next. We're building for commercial satellite operators who want to operate in g GEO, in NEO, in LEO, in Hesed.
Speaker: We get there first and because our upper stage is also reusable. were We are also introducing point-to-point cargo delivery, point-to-point rocket cargo. So once we're in a way, or operate but once we've operationalized that, then we'll think about the larger vehicle and see how we can.
Speaker: Because it takes a lot of data to build a vehicle that's scale. it is it is not an easy It is not an easy task. And billions of dollars. India probably doesn't have the capital. Yeah, the appetite for something like that without commercial scale, it's not going to be much at all. So the Starship is reusable?
Speaker: Yes. ah And what you are building, which I believe you call the the Razor? Razor Crest. Razor Crest. and So what that is also reusable? Like what is the difference other than size?
Speaker: um So if you think about it, the Starship is in the super heavy lift category. We are in the heavy lift category. We are in the Falcon 9 category. so So ah if you put it against Falcon 9, the difference is for the Falcon 9, the booster stage comes back and relapse.
Speaker: And the upper stage that actually carries the payload into orbit, that is not recovered. In our case, we're we're also recovering the upper stage. think maybe you should break down these stages. like Let's talk about what happens when a rocket goes to space. What ah what are the steps in that? you know The whole job of a rocket is to ah deliver the satellite its desired speed so that it can stay in orbit.
Speaker: That's the only job a rocket has to do. right carry the satellite into the right orbit, but also make sure it is the satellite is able to achieve the right kind of velocity to stay in orbit.
Speaker: Because how does a satellite stay in orbit typically? It is constantly being pulled by Earth's gravity, but it's going so fast, it is consistently just falling.
Speaker: So at the right speed, you are just kind continuously falling. they Whenever required the propulsion system, or the depending on the size of the satellite, if it's a smaller satellite, then you have this gyroscopic um you know mechanisms to counter away and make flywheels that can adjust the CG so that you're then because micro adjustments is all it takes.
Speaker: So then you just stay in it. So the rocket's job is to make sure that the satellite is injected in the desired commercial orbit at the right velocity, right? which is The booster stage, typically when you see a rocket launch into orbit, you see parts of it. right So when a rocket is actually taking off into orbit, you want to make sure that you're not carrying any excess weight because you're already fighting Earth's gravity quite a bit. So you end up dumping off things that you don't require as you want.
Speaker: In the case of solid rocket motors, it'll be multiple stages. Once one particular stage is burnt, you separate that and then the motor falls. And then you keep doing that until your payload goes up. In our case, it's a two-stage two of it because we only have two stages that takes a payload. into So which is a simpler way to do it.
Speaker: So you have the boost and actually staging really depends just not on your choice, but also a lot of other auxiliary factors as in where you're geographically positioned.
Speaker: what what is the geopolitical situation around do you also have land masses around that ah let's say you you're particular velocity you want to achieve a particular velocity before you are above that particular landmass so that your vehicle can come back right so it it depends on a few other factors uh predominantly geographical um that that will the uh That will help you figure out the technical side then to figure out whether or not how you can do the staging.
Speaker: Tell me if I get this right. So a rocket would, I guess, like you have this marker. So a rocket looks like this. And then there are these things here, the bottom, which are the boosters, which are strapped on.
Speaker: The role of the booster is just to escape the gravity of the earth and then they fall off. Okay, now, absolutely. So that is the main booster, right? So that's in solid rocket.
Speaker: But if you look at the vehicle, closest example to our vehicle that is right now operational is the Falcon 9, right? You see, there is one, it is clean, it doesn't have strap-ons, because it's a liquid rocket engine. So in a solid rocket, and a solid rocket rocket what are you're saying is absolutely right. here The first set of boosters that burn, they emit at a particular altitude, the they just scrap themselves and they dump. But in a ah liquid rocket engine, you burn, ah you're burning the booster stage, which constitutes to about 70% of the vehicle, 70, 75% based on your configuration. um then
Speaker: The job of the booster stage is to make sure that your upper stage that is actually carrying the payload is getting enough delta V at the point where the main engine is cut off. I think we call it MECO.
Speaker: MECO happens around 85 kilometers, 85, 90 kilometers, 80, 85 kilometers. um And at that altitude, when we do the MECO. There's also an inertia of the booster stage that you can utilize it to maneuver and then bring it back. But the upper stage, the job of the booster is to make sure that you've... yeah The booster stage will do everything to fight Earth's gravity, take it to ah near carbon line, and make sure that the upper stage at that point has enough delta V to then um use minimal fuel to carry, right? so
Speaker: ah ah The reason being ah on an upper stage, at least in our case, the ratio of weight to payload is about one is to one. So for every one kg of mass added to the upper stage, we lose one kg of payload, right? Meaning if I have to carry even one kg fuel extra, I lose one kg in payload that I can carry. So I want to optimize for that. Like I want to see how much I can optimize on the boost, how much I can,
Speaker: get the boost stage to perform. Right. So, and then the upper stage then carries the payload, does inject the payload in orbit injection. And then typically it is burned for other rockets. In our case, we can also choose to bring it back.
Speaker: So but what is burnt? What are you talking about here? the upper stage that actually carries the... Okay. So the the the expensive part of a rocket is the booster. and The upper stage is relatively less expensive, so people can afford to burn it.
Speaker: Yeah. So ah upper stage typically, um I think in the case of SpaceX, it was about $12.5, $13 million dollars is the upper stage, which is quite a lot, actually. I mean, not from an American standpoint, but from an you know from our economic standpoint, it is quite a bit. So in our case, so more than putting it in absolute numbers, I think the best way to put it is in terms of percentage. So ah that constitutes to about 30%, 35% the re vehicles cost.
Speaker: Okay. Okay. On a fresh vehicle, it'll cost you about 30, including testing and stuff at about 30, 34% of the vehicle.
Speaker: And then you will, it'll just reduce over a period of time because then you're re using it. So, but if you think about it, if you want the reason why we chose to bring it back, you can be like, but why are you trying to bring it back? You might as well just build a,
Speaker: vehicle that can just do partial reusability right the problem is that you can't replicate spacex's business model if anybody who wakes up and says hey you know i'm going to build a medium rocket and i can do four launches a week it doesn't operate like that because um they are not always flying full they also have starlink they have cross up they was cross subsidized with the us government the link economics for that work very differently So you can't make your launch cadence, such a high launch cadence makes sense
Speaker: um until you're vertically stacked or you're highly cross-examined. So people forget that. So if I build a, because if you want to do four launches a week, meaning you want to produce four upper stages a week, again, the amortized cost per kg never makes sense. You can't make your economics work really well.
Speaker: So we have to make sure that we are bringing the upper stage back. so And you're the only one who's building a rocket in which the upper stage is coming back or there others there also?
Speaker: There is one other company. They're called Stokespace. okay They're based out of the US. They're using something called the expander cycle to bring the upper stage back. i and But they're not in the same. they They're in the three-ton category. They're in the small lift vehicle category. They're the only ones in the world in the medium lift cycle.
Speaker: I think we are the only two companies in the world that are actually doing the recovery. Starship is where the star, oh ah yeah, Starship, the super heavy one, they're trying to bring it back as well, but it's a completely different thing because ah you see Starship comes off like this, right? Because of the sheer size of the vehicle, it comes off and in something called the lifted react lift re-entry. So there are different re-entry methods. They come come in a lifted re-entry like a space shuttle. And So they don't have much of an option, but he used thermal heat tiles and do a lot of things that they're still figuring out. um
Speaker: Our point was very clear. i mean, our approach was very clear when we started off and we realized that we had to bring our upper stage back to make the launch frequency and the economics work. So ah for us, it was like, okay, if you want to bring the upper stage back, we we better to make sure that it's going to work economically because we also look why wasn't it done before it's not a very uh novel thought to try and bring an upper state back maybe and obviously spacex also tried to bring their fairings back so they also obviously thought of why can't they bring the upper state back and they just what is fairing
Speaker: ah The one that actually encapsulates the payload. Okay. It opens up like this and let's the it's basically what protects the payload from the own but i going to yes the nose. Okay. the noses okay okay The fairings are usually jetted and then you separate it and then youre you usually burn it in the atmosphere. SpaceX also but if tried to catch them.
Speaker: because I think it cost about three, $3 million dollars each. But with the, you know, the kind of maritime operations they were utilizing, it costed just way more to cash them and refurbish them to just build.
Speaker: It doesn't make sense. So which is a smart thing to do. In our case, we were like, okay, because you have to bring the upper stage back because then we are able to the make the economics work. How are we going to look at by why why wasn't it done before?
Speaker: And this answer was pretty simple. It is a re-entry heat. So the heritage approach was to find the re-entry heat with heat tiles and ah deep ah different kinds of thermal protection systems.
Speaker: we We just thought of a different act. We were like, why find the re-entry heat when we can utilize it? And that was the thought or line of thought that we worked on. And that's when we also, in a way, discovered um that there was also another company that we mentioned like Stokesbase, who was right to bring it back. And that was also an interesting approach.
Speaker: And we are also excited to see how That will also work. where In fact, I think recently they also closed a extended round. it was ah And now now they've raised over a billion in total.
Speaker: A phenomenal company as well. So we're we're trying to be we're also observing how well it'll work out. But we also saw certain limitations in that approach.
Speaker: So we didn't want to go with that approach. We we saw certain limitations and functionality and performance in vacuum with the kind of operation they were still looking at it. But still by far more efficient system than the rest.
Speaker: So that's that's what we did. Okay, that this is also not going to be a full fledged solution in the end. So then we built our own rocket engine cycle.
Speaker: that that will in a way utilize or harness the re-entry heat instead of fighting. So what I mean by rocket engine feed cycle is like a closest analogy I can give would probably be, let's say you look behind a Honda or a Suzuki, you see IV tech, intelligent variable valve injection technology, right? CRDI, common rail diesel injection.
Speaker: So these are basically certain types of engines on motorcars. Similarly, you have rocket engines that operate on certain feed cycles.
Speaker: ah You have tap-off cycle engines, gas generator engines. um You have staged combustion engines. You have full-flow staged combustion engines. As of today, we only have one.
Speaker: So there are two types of, like the solid state engine and liquid state engine. Those are different types of engines. They have solid propellants, rocket propellants, solid rocket motors, and then you have liquid rocket engines. In liquid rocket engines, these are different types of engines that you use. Okay. okay the different so here Solid and liquid refers to fuel type, basically. It's like saying petrol and diesel, you know, simple way. Okay. Got it. Okay. And within liquid, there are different technologies on how you
Speaker: Burn the liquid and get the thrust. Okay. Yeah. Okay. so And how efficiently you can manage, right? Like how you put ah in a car, you have the turbocharged engines and non-tropocharged.
Speaker: Similarly. So, and then historically, most rocket engines have been built on these like broader five, six cycles. We, I think, I think we can probably claim that we are the only company to develop a completely new rocket engine feed cycle in the last six decades of rocket.
Speaker: So that is a massive. and And what what is the the the proprietary technology that you've developed there?
Speaker: i I think I can't, as of today, go in detail about how it works. We're still working waiting waiting on a few things to be um secured from standpoint just a rough understanding um the overall idea is in a way that you basically don't want your system to take the heat you want i mean you don't want your hardware to directly take the heat you want um
Speaker: your system to take that heat as a whole than one particular hardware taking it yeah you can you can consider this like a heat sink mechanism right so there's a source but of the heat and you want a sink where you can take that so we our job was to create a heat sink where that heat is taken up and you ah and you create certain intentional,
Speaker: a traceable damage on where that heat is being hit, you utilize basically the damage also created by the re-entry heat in a bell until like it basically follows a bell curve, just like an afterburner of a jet, how you can maintain it.
Speaker: So yeah the damage is also advantageous until a point where it is not. Then you replace. so So it's a heat sourcing kind of mechanism that we have.
Speaker: You're able to leverage that heat for some thing. Yeah. Basically, we're in a way utilizing the heat to run our engines. At the time of re-entry?
Speaker: Yes. Okay. yeah Okay. Okay. ah I thought re-entry is just pure gravity pulling it down. no But you also have engine. Pull it down, yes. But you also want to slow down your states.
Speaker: um Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. Okay. Okay. okay now Because you want to capture it whole, so you can't... let gravity do its thing you need to slow it down for that you need that the braking is coming from the engines only like a reverse test yes and the heat is helping then okay interesting very interesting okay okay got it amazing um what was the reason for uh solid state shifting to liquid state uh in rockets
Speaker: Yeah, so um I think it was high time because um the way the simplest way to put it is that um solid rocket motors were proven tech and they were highly reliable.
Speaker: And and what what is the fuel then, the solid fuel that is being used? The first ever rocket that we did was nothing but a missile. So missiles typically used, in a way, solid rocket fuels.
Speaker: And solid rocket fuels are basically when you... So let's take an example, right? Like a firecracker that you think about it. once you control Once you light a firecracker,
Speaker: you're not controlling it until the fuel burns, it is just going to take off. And you see, those are also powdered fuel. Now, this is just an analogy, but in in in actual um solid rocket fuel grain, the grain structure of all of how the solid fuel is packed also matters.
Speaker: Then ah the density, the shape also affects how much you can control the flow. So it's it's a slightly, it's it's a more complex version of how that works. But bottom line is that once you start burning, you can't stop it.
Speaker: So that is, so the staging and everything was planned accordingly, right? Exists in a high energy state. So if you excited, catastrophe is very easy.
Speaker: So operational complexity for solid rocket motor casing, packing, ah everything is much higher. but because it was a very highly understood technology and it was very highly reliable and they were it the supply chain is also much um you know laid down the infrastructure for testing was also readily available so r and d time frame was much lower while operational complexity is much higher meaning the operational cost is also much higher on liquid rocket engines it is the other way around
Speaker: because it is liquid engine, you can control how much you can throttle, right? You can you can <unk> control how much fuel is going. You can control the thrust and throttling in the engine.
Speaker: So the R and D timeline, in this, the R and D complexity is much higher to build it and test it and stuff. But the operational complexity and operational cost is much lower.
Speaker: So, but if you think about it, long-term, what is more efficient? Liquid rocket engines, because you have more predictability, it is more efficient, you're carrying... um let And the in the overall supply chain, the operational complex complexity and toxicity of the fuel is much lower. haard ah the ah Hazard element or risk element is much lower. um And basically the overall performance of the vehicle is much, much better in a liquid rocket engine than a solid rocket engine.
Speaker: Circling back to also one of the things that we discussed was the fuel. what What do we mean by liquid rocket fuel and solid rocket fuel? So a simple example can be in liquid rocket engines, you have different, ah you you can broadly put it into two different categories.
Speaker: One is fully cryogenic. The other one is semi cryogenic. like So in liquid rocket engine, like is when we are going up, As we go up here, losing oxygen, right? So you you want to carry oxygen with you to combust your fuel.
Speaker: So okay liquid oxygen that you're carrying with you, which is always in cryogenic state, right? so And then you have the fuel.
Speaker: So oxidizer, liquid oxygen. Fuel, if your fuel is also a sub-zero fuel, right, like hydrogen or methane.
Speaker: So then you, these are then called cryogenic rock ah cragenic engines or cryogenic propellants that build a fully cryogenic engine.
Speaker: And then you have semi cryo where you're carrying the oxidizer, but your fuel is not necessarily subzero. You're using fuel like refined kerosene or what we call it as RP1. So those are then semi cryogenic fuels.
Speaker: The advantage of a fully cryogenic setup is that the combustion is much cleaner. RP1, what we are using, the combustion may not be very clean like a cryogenic fuel, but Because we are we are already doing certain things that are new, we wanted to take comfort in fuel where our team already has experience in. The only a disadvantage with RP1 was that Beyond 800 Kelvin, it starts coking. So there was there will be soup deposition. So the refurbishment process gets a little more complex and it would be in a cryogenic setup. But that is something that we can live with. In solid rocket motors, the fuel would be APCP, right? You have ammonium perchlorate composites, HTPB.
Speaker: So these are different kinds of grain mixtures that you... that you build inside. So when you see a solid rocket booster go up, it's basically the entire rocket burning itself.
Speaker: Plus the outside magazine is the one that's motor casing is the only one that escapes, right? Inside, whatever is there, it's just, is the rocket burning itself. That's the structure in itself.
Speaker: oh good Okay. Okay. Yeah. Now,
Speaker: ah now Take me back to the origin of the Guild. what was like what ah what was What qualified you to start it? Tell me a little bit about your background and what led to the birth. how did you It's pretty audacious to raise funds in India for space tech. you know so just I'm curious to learn about that story.
Speaker: So um my background is originally mechanical engineering. And in 2019, I had the opportunity as one of the 12 selected for Project POSM, Polar Sub-Abidal Sciences in Upper Mesosphere. It was a formerly NASA Space Flight Opportunities-aided program.
Speaker: for noctulus in cloud research and atmospheric research that transformed into astronautics. um in the Through the program, met amazing people, got to work pro bono on commercial spaceflight planning, ah went through the scientist astronaut program of that course myself, um And in the interim, in 2020, I also got to ah work with ISRO at the Human Space Flight Center. That's where I met Shubhayu, my co-founder. He was in ISRO for about 10 years.
Speaker: Then Then I joined an IT Bombay based startup called Manastu Space, where I was on the executive team leading product strategy and business development. That's very big. My other co-founder, Prashanti, was hitting propulsions there.
Speaker: So if you if you think about if you ask me four years back, if I saw um myself doing this, the answer is no. um There was no plan. It was a very organic beginning for us.
Speaker: uh but my interest but i knew i had to always do something that i had to do with space um i grew up listening to the vedas an integral part of my life was always to figure out learn more about our our very existence and the universe in itself um And most of it, I also wanted to, in a way, you see, we see science and um philosophy and metaphysics as parallels, right? But it is only a matter of time before most of it converts. I think we that I wanted to do more of the outward, physical, physical,
Speaker: ah engineering stuff that would actually facilitate that convergence sooner than later. right That way you're contributing to your civilization's growth and overall um awareness that that grows as or the overall how you can alleviate the collective conscious of people. And the only way you can alleviate the collective conscious of people is by exposing them to more um things tangibly that they're able to see and utilize on a daily basis, that's the best way to go about it.
Speaker: And even you're doing it at this scale, it the the the it changes the whole game. right So back then, there was a thought. um And Prashant and Shabhai also had similar um thoughts about wanting to move in that direction. and um I think it just very, it started over a dinner and it very organically happened.
Speaker: Even after that, in a few months, we just discussed a few things and what we wanted to do with life in general was this.
Speaker: So, and because our backgrounds were all engineering and The vision was, and the and the experience also broadly, started off with space. We wanted to solve for, started to solve with space and then move towards the other larger problems.
Speaker: But one thing is our problems, we want our problems that we would solve to be as big as possible. So we start with space, then we move towards any other larger problems our civilization will continue to fix.
Speaker: and that that's a broad um so which is why our we don't have a four five line vision our our vision and a tagline is more of a more of a what other people would call a tagline it is simple catalyzing civilizational progress that is all we want to do we'll continue do that in every way possible so um if you but so when you ask me like if when we start when we were When we were starting off, people didn't even dare to touch large rockets or reusability in India.
Speaker: like Nobody dared to touch it. lot of people paved the way for startups. And there were older rocket companies, startups in India that paved the way for us to begin with.
Speaker: But we were the ones who paved the way for reusability and large rockets. When we started off, people mocked. They said, this is not you cant this is not possible to build in India. This is a much larger scope. And now we have hardware that has entered our country for the first time since our country's existence azu as modern India. right We are a thousand year thousand year old civilization, multiple, we've gone through several cycles, but this tech that we are building right now, we facilitated way for that. People didn't think it was possible.
Speaker: People were not weak. We facilitated the confidence in the investors by showing our progress in technical milestones. And we've not been very loud about it.
Speaker: We've been quiet about it. But that quiet confidence from global customers from our tech also brought confidence from investors. Now where we also know that anybody who would now build will move ah move towards reusability. they Anybody who also existed before us, they will pivot towards this inevitably at some point.
Speaker: We know that will come, but we're the ones who facilitated for that to happen. So, um and we're ready. So we knew, because we knew that there was no point of playing catch up whatsoever.
Speaker: If as long as we were playing catch up, we also need to have this tech. We also need to, we will always be in that cycle. We wanted to start off by building something that other people would say, we also need to have this tech.
Speaker: Right. And, and it made, and it we were in, we started in a time where it was perfect, like right time, right place.
Speaker: phenomenal policy revisions, government is moving towards great support towards this. And we also knew that, you know, upper stage reusability was inevitable and that was not being done anywhere.
Speaker: Perfect match. That is when we knew, okay, we'll start with this and we'll go towards this. um And, you know, when you set a trend, people follow, and we've been setting several trends by doing a lot of India's firsts.
Speaker: And we want people to follow. And that is good. How did you launch a company without any funding? Because from what I can see, your first round was in 2023 and you started this in 21, I believe? 22. 22. Okay.
Speaker: ah Like, did you need to show investors actual working prototypes or were you able to raise funds based on the idea and the strength of the team and, ah you know, maybe paper designs?
Speaker: um the So Shubhai and I burnt a bit of our capital, our savings, whatever we we had. Also it borrowed some money from my dad and we we were going through it for the first year. We incorporated it to 30th May 2022.
Speaker: So can effectively call it June. they So it's been three and a half years to be precise. This June will mark four years. So, so um The first year until 2023, when we raised our first tech, we were just doing this. We didn't go into the market to raise funds without readiness. And I was clear.
Speaker: I was leading charge on that bit. um I wanted to make sure that because see, fundraise is a challenge for any founder, not just a space tech. fund It is a challenge for everybody. That is the founder's duty to be able to raise fund. If you can't sell what you want to do, then you better, you're better off not doing it because you can't, go around blaming people for not putting money in you.
Speaker: They're not putting money in you because you've not sold it the right way. yeah right It's as simple as that. So we wanted to be as ready as possible to get into the market. We did that. We went out into the market to raise capital.
Speaker: Back then, we knew most investors had already put money in one or two of the rocket companies that average already existed. And we were saying that we are going to build a much larger rocket. guys in their 20s and one experienced guy from this is is sort also doing it though we had an experience typically you expect gray hairs right so the challenge was also that like um back then we didn't also have a ah team it was three of us in a cabin working and trying to see the thing that stood out in our team was that we were extremely ready we'd gone to the bold we we knew our economics in and out we had our research and we knew what we wanted to do We we had visibility towards the next the next few months, as in about 18 months in absolute detail and a few years in as much detail detail as we can.
Speaker: But over a period of time, we also figured out that what you expect or estimate is not what it's going to be. And the first check to get was actually difficult. Because our expectation was that we were ready to get money. And then we went out and the into the market and we found out that shit, like, okay, you can be as ready as you want to be, but there's there are also external factors that affect your rates, right? So that's when we were like, okay.
Speaker: But then we were fortunate to have our our first believers come in and say, hey, you know what? We know you guys are gonna rock it, but we wanna take a bet where you give us one small milestone and say, I can do this in this much capital, you do it in show, and you know then we'll see how it goes.
Speaker: And that is all we needed at that point. So we did a small round. We knew it was not enough to build rocket engines, but we built, our foundation so strong that building rocket engines were only a few minutes away. We built certain tools that help us build rocket engines and we validated them in ISRO's facility.
Speaker: Hardware validated that, did stuff like that, built a mad team, went on to raise our seed. repeated the process, delivered.
Speaker: And we also didn't deliver a few things that we wanted to deliver in our seed, but we that were dependent on external factors. So we then compensated for that by netting our timeline to still remain the same.
Speaker: And we built things that were not a part of our seed to compensate for that. And then went towards our series and we'll continue to do that. This year is going to be a lot of action though.
Speaker: What is the... ah You know, investors look for returns, as we discussed previously. ah I think investors are very well informed now.
Speaker: he return bit They know that it's a long gestation game. They know when to expect, but they all they want to see right now, they they know that nobody's going to put cash in the bank until you know you're close you're close to your launch and the payload has already been signed, ah the contract was signed. But what they're looking for but like market validation or ah in the form of traction.
Speaker: aren't trusted guys so we didn't do we are not going to do any gimmicks we are not going to do any uh gimmicks with suborbital launches or we're not going to do any gimmicks with signing a billion dollars in mous from thousand different organizations from research organizations or this no that's not the way to go obviously we'll support research institutions and universities and stuff but That is who you are supporting as a Locket company.
Speaker: They are not your primary customers. Your primary customers are guys who are sitting with a couple of hundred billion in the bank and a few satellites ready to be rolled out in the next three years. And the timeline is matching your launches. And those are the guys you want to sign with. So we went after the harder guys. We went after government agencies. We went after larger government contractors who...
Speaker: typically don't even sign without you having two successful launches. We went after that. And you know then we signed 130. didn't sign a lot, but we signed credible $130 million dollars in launch agreements.
Speaker: Now that shows crunch. but Is this a like a committed ah thing that when you ah launch your rocket, I'm committing to give you this much of business?
Speaker: Or is this like a soft cement? Yeah, more or less. It's ah it's a MOE saying that I'll give you these many tons at this many at this many tons of payload at this great price.
Speaker: And because they're the earliest believers, we also discounted our launch rates for them. oh What does the economics of a launch look like? How much does one launch cost you and how much do you earn in a launch? um i I will not very publicly talk about how much it's going to cost us, but I can tell you where we're going to price it at. We can price it at about anywhere between anywhere as low as $350.
Speaker: to matching whatever the industry base is. Today, the industry base average is around $5,000, $6,000, though it can go This is per kilogram price. Yeah. Okay. right Because of the demand, SpaceX is bumping it up. I mean, they can go much lower. They can go as low as $1,800, $2,000 per kg if they want to, but...
Speaker: you know the demand is so high why do it it's just you know they're still the more economical option available so they're doing it at six thousand dollars so i don't need necessarily to go as low as 500 per kg but we can so the whole point for us is to democratize and bring that make that situation possible so we will uh the the goal for us is not to start a price war That is not, that's not what we want to do we We want to make sure that we are able to bring bring our launch cadence to a point where naturally the price comes down to work what needs it needs to be.
Speaker: they shouldn't We shouldn't be in a position where you are having to bump your price up because you're unable to cater to the demand. So we'll first boil that down and then we'll figure out where to price it.
Speaker: But bottom line, we can go up as low as 350. How many kilos in one launch can you carry? What's the capacity? We can 24.8 tons, 24,800 kgs in expendable configuration, a maximum. In a partially reusable configuration, we can carry 22 tons, of 22 tons.
Speaker: And in a fully reusable configuration, we can carry as as as much as the entire GSLV Mark III, about 8 tons plus. Okay. So we're talking about like five, $6 million dollars at the very minimum per lunch.
Speaker: bare minimum. I mean, that that is ah that that is the bare minimum in a fully reusable configuration. yeah but it oh It's a partially reusable vehicle.
Speaker: You're talking about 50 million plus in a single vehicle. million in a single vehicle. Wow. Wow. Okay. Okay. ah I guess the advantage which you have compared to other Indian companies, i don't think anyone else most other companies are doing small lift, right? Yeah.
Speaker: So which gives you the ah economies of scale advantage. Like you can carry more payload with every launch and therefore bring the price down. um What are the ah what are the things you must get right over the next one or two or three or four years to reach success? Like, like you know, what are those critical ah steps for you to cross going forward?
Speaker: I think the most important bit is execution oh but what but what like define it like what like what execution. What I mean by execution is in terms of timelines. One thing that we've realized in this journey is how important it is to do your or realize your hardware on time is or to build capacity to test these hardware on timers.
Speaker: As in most of what we're doing, if not all, is being done for the first time in the country. So the infrastructure for that doesn't exist.
Speaker: We've explored this road facilities as well. But it doesn't exactly suit our requirement. So um for example, the the f the and engine test facility that we've built in Kudalur, Tamil Nadu,
Speaker: It is India's highest pressure rated rocket engine test facility. In fact, it is India's first independently developed rocket engine test facility that has standalone in test rigs and skit that is built for built and separate industrial land and whatever.
Speaker: you know This test facility is purely for in-house consumption or is this also ah like a P&L on its own? Like you will offer this to other... Yeah, we we can. but In the beginning, it is it'll be just too tight for us to allow people to come in and test their hardware because we'll be busier on our own. But we are completely open for people to come in in and use like... it is It is capacity building for the nation.
Speaker: What we've done there is capacity building for the nation. We didn't have that facility, so we had to build it. Now that will stay there. And once we go through that cycle of R&D, if people want to utilize it, we don't mind. Like we will have periodic utilization, obviously. but We don't mind i guess utilizing it.
Speaker: Then... What all hardware is yet to be developed? Where are you as on date? For our TDB, that's the Technology Demonstrative Vehicle Launch in 2027. Whatever needs to go out for...
Speaker: whatever component component needs to be flight qualified, all of them have either already gone for manufacturing or are being manufactured. So, but these hardware components will go through certain test cycles.
Speaker: For example, one is the hot firing in itself, right? The campaign, the hot firing campaign for the engine Then you have the hot, uh, then you have the integrated, uh, stage testing of the booster.
Speaker: There are so many other stuff. I'm just giving you the broader three, four primary things that we were were looking at. And you also have the, uh, cluster firing of the upper stage.
Speaker: Then you have the cycle testing of the upper stage. Then you have the integrated testing of the stage. So, uh, These are the broader three, four things that we will see coming in the next one year before our launch.
Speaker: But um like I said, most of the hardware for all of that have already gone into manufacturing or are being manufactured. So that readiness is there. What we're waiting on is the test infrastructure.
Speaker: that is ah That is something that we're building up because for something that is of this scale, the infrastructure takes a lot of time. okay few To be honest, Dr. Even I didn't think coming into this, then it will be you know such massive scale.
Speaker: you know there is one is knowing and one is realizing. I knew this was going to come, but the realization of that scale happened very recently. So, a yeah, so super excited.
Speaker: Handmade. or I mean, I'm assuming this is not like, ah say, a car factory where cars are rolling out of an assembly line with a very standard way of doing it. I mean, you you do you will have a line, but it's not going to be, like you mentioned, it's not a mass manufacturing item.
Speaker: We want to get, of repair the whole idea is to have a fleet size of three, four rockets and do over 800 launches a year, right? So that's the best, more efficient way of doing it. So it'll more be like how Um, like how do we define handmade? Like, yeah, it is overseen by people at all times, but it machines doing the job, but you have people. they be Like robotic arms, which are welding things together or whatever.
Speaker: a yeah you have You have welders doing it or robotics doing it, but it's like, for example, you want to do a tank manufacturing. where do you have a um You have a sheet and then you you're putting it into the rolling machine and you're rolling it, but there is a particular pace that you want to it. You don't want to fit affect the material property. You want to make sure that is concentricity maintained.
Speaker: So people do it. It's the position. It's like how you can, how a Rolls Royce is produced, right? So you in case of role choice, masters are always looking at the craft, how it is being done. It's been worsening similar way.
Speaker: So it is the the struggle here is to maintain the precision over and over. The accuracy is a struggle and which is why you need people looking at it and doing a large scale. But stuff that are the other way around,
Speaker: Like in certain areas, there is much little you can do once the manufacturing procedure has begun. begun For example, you're 3D printing your engine. Once the process has begun, there is not much you can intervene.
Speaker: And this is normally how engines are made, like through 3D printing. on Nowadays, yes earlier nothing but it used to be conventional manufacturing, milling for the channels and then different, but it's super time taking, it'll take you like six months to build a engine, regenerative and stuff.
Speaker: stupid That scale. So it was not a very efficient setup. Thank God we have 3D printing now. Things are much easier. But that comes with... Doesn't 3D printing give you like a plastic or whatever? Like, like can you do 3D printing using metal? Yeah.
Speaker: Okay. There's also bimetallic. i mean, yeah, you can print alloys. Okay. Amazing. Okay. So, and the test process would be like you would assemble together individual components, like say just the engine and then test it out in the testing facility that you're building. that And then finally, when parts have been individually tested is when you'll do the test launch of 2027 that you spoke about.
Speaker: Conceptually, yes, but to put it in a way, just say there are campaigns, right? So if you look at it, you first test your injector, then you go for your ignition systems and you go for your open chamber test and you go for your hard firing and you collect as much data as possible through a particular cycle of this campaign.
Speaker: And then then you go for a full date duration fire. Then you try throttling the engine up and down, try to get a ballot. so then you have you you're collecting as much data as you can and then you do repeatability tests on those hot fires and see how they operate so um yeah so it is it is like that so and then um but the the funny part is that i thought this was the way to go right but then when we went about building our own test facility it is also about qualifying the facility first
Speaker: na So it's also about qualifying those fuel lines, those oxidizer lines, the ignition lines, then your you're seeing as an integrated system if the facility is operating, operating it is okay to function its operational parameters. And you see if the data acquisition is done is done in the precise way. If you have electrical lines going with your data cables, if if if the EMF is quite interfering with the data that you're collecting from the engine, or if the shockwave from the engine in itself is affecting your data.
Speaker: Like all of that things also come in. So it is it is pretty easy. um ah Talk to me about how the launch will happen. Like where will these components get assembled together? How how big is the Razer rocket? Like how many stories tall?
Speaker: ah How does it all, where does it get transported to? How does it launch? We initially wanted, we thought we'd be doing it in Tamil Nadu. But then...
Speaker: um Eventually we changed our mind because the sheer scale of the vehicle, it's a roughly a 71 meter tall vehicle, right?
Speaker: So a 71 meter tall vehicle, as in if you, on average, a floor is about three meters, right? Oh, holy cow. Okay. That's massive. it's It is a huge.
Speaker: It's like a 20 story building. Wow. This will get transported. It will be built on site, right? There's no way you can transport something this big. put it Yeah. So we we didn't want to be transporting or manufacturing and transporting it in parts and assembling the pan and the dough.
Speaker: the operational complexity and the quality checks at each stage would have been ridiculously high. And diameter is about for the stage is about 4.4 meters wide, or the booster, and the upper stage is roughly 5.5 meters wide. So um we didn't even know if a few of the tolls could take our vehicle or certain roads to that extent would be able to handle these dimensions. so Thankfully, we the Andhra Pradesh government has also been super supportive and we acquired 150-acre land parts very close to our launch pad. That is where our entire manufacturing, testing and assembly will happen for the larger rocket.
Speaker: And it's only about an hour away from the pad itself. So we'll be assembling there, transporting it to the pad, directing the vehicle, propellant loaded and launch.
Speaker: Wow. ah Yeah. Why do you have the testing center in Tamil Nadu? Like, why not just do it all? That is only for the upper stage engine. Okay.
Speaker: Okay. That's like an engine testing. Only the upper stage engine testing. Booster stage, everything will happen. Integrate. That's an all-in-one facility. Okay. So, this one, the question to the why is very simple.
Speaker: With a 5 million seat round, we... wanted to get land parcel big enough to do our engine testing at a cost that is lower. And this is the one that we just picked and it was also coastal area.
Speaker: So we were like, okay, close to the coast coastal area, easy to do it. Let's just do it. Anywhere under the language is too expensive. um Okay, okay, okay. What is the role of government in your business overall? Like, besides the government being a customer and giving you business in terms of satellite payload, you know, satellites for you to take up, what other role does the government play?
Speaker: um I think it is beyond just them giving us business. In fact, most of our business will be commercial than government, at least from an India standpoint.
Speaker: um And we would expect that government... and And our business is going to be mostly global. By by nature, a launch company is a global business. We will a global satellite industry.
Speaker: And we would want that to also grow into indigenous payloads that are higher in number as well as government payloads. But apart from business, the larger support is in the openness of the government to let private guys take this over, right?
Speaker: So imagine someone like Isra who has so much heritage in launch, them buckling up and saying, hey, you know what? We want you guys now to carry the patent forward.
Speaker: We want you guys to focus on private... launches and we are also open to utilizing them because we want to focus more on more advanced missions like human space flight lunar indigenous gps systems and all of that so that is um that is a great direction for them to have taken in the first place i think letting go of that letting others utilize their infrastructure and doing that that is a massive rule
Speaker: right so that is one is great and they also do reviews for us uh they not beyond just operating uh on their fest facilities it's also uh let's uh allow me to in space obviously they've also set in space it was facilitating all of this interaction and visibility and Publicity and focusing of focus facilitating reviews with ISRO and their facilities. I'm talking about not just launches. I'm talking about satellite applications, Earth observation satellite guys, everybody, a space industry as a whole.
Speaker: And the larger bit then comes at a policy level. eight They're open to giving more ah ah autonomy to so ah two private players from a policy standpoint, which is also pretty crazy thing to do.
Speaker: So yeah, cool that that is, I think, a larger part of the government in this. Now they've also opened funds. um you know You have the thousand crore growth stage fund from InSpace set up for growth stage startups.
Speaker: Now you have these research and development funds set up by government of India. So I think these are the larger role of the government. This is the larger role of the government than at this time, which is And I think ISRO's own launch vehicle, PSLV, I think it's called. That is again a small lift vehicle.
Speaker: and Yes. the The heavy lift, you are the only one in India who's doing heavy lift. Medium lift, yeah. Medium lift, right. ISRO has the GSLV, which is the medium lift segment, but it is the lower end of the medium lift segment.
Speaker: Okay. GSLV is a massive rocket. We call it the fat body. Okay. Okay. Okay. So... what ah you know What are you expecting that 2027 technical demonstration to show?
Speaker: That a rocket can go up and can land back successfully? what what is okay we were we are more or less i mean um Our focus is predominantly on bringing it back.
Speaker: So the demonstration will show re-entry. And we're not, like I said, mentioned earlier, we're not going to do any suborbital gimmick because we'll not reach any orbit any velocity regimes that we actually want to to test more re-entry.
Speaker: So we're going to do a full-blown orbital launch. And how does it land again? and how how does it land again like what is the mechanism like i remember one of those tesla launches where there was something which caught the rocket is that how it will happen okay that's not what you're doing it that is that was required because of the sheer size and scale of the starship they had to do it because the starship is such a like i said it's a skyscraper coming back and re-landing right so you uh every just imagine how much fuel it takes for them to soft land it And imagine the amount of weight they would have to add if they had to add a landing legs for those.
Speaker: So the amount of fuel that they would just end up and that the period of compromise on on a long term standpoint for the last suicide burn and the landing legs to be on it would be in massive.
Speaker: Instead, just put a landing infrastructure. that is a long-term thing and increase overall efficiency. That was a picture for us, our for our vehicle, we don't need that. We would do a soft landing, like a Falcon 9 for them.
Speaker: Okay. Like the rocket itself will, uh, just come back. Like it'll calculate the right, uh, thrust and, uh, do a soft landing. Yeah. And deploy its landing legs. Hmm.
Speaker: m Okay, okay, okay. Amazing, amazing. ah Let me kind of end with the asking you about advice for tech founders, aspiring deep tech founders. What are some of the things which you think they need to be careful of if they want to build deep tech in India?
Speaker: I think the only thing... I would have to actually, i actually have to say is to stay away from the noise. um As difficult as it is for me to say, we live in a country where it is also very easy to hype things up.
Speaker: There is good and bad sides to it. We don't want, like, you don't want hype until unless your tech has actually worked. Your tech should speak for itself. And In tech, in general, particularly space tech is industry where even if you don't want hype automatically generates around it.
Speaker: So perception building on that is very difficult. You can't control narrative there and you don't want to control the narrative there. You want to get to a point where your tech is so solid that you're able to control that narrative.
Speaker: Right. So I think heads down building is the most important bit. Execution is the most important bit. And for you to execute, you need capital. And how do you get capital? Readiness.
Speaker: Just make sure you're ready before you're going into the market to raise capital for what you want to build. Make sure you've already gone through several iterations of um the worst case possibilities in your head, because there is no point of lying to yourself.
Speaker: there is point of absolutely no point of lying to yourself um irrespective of deep tech or no but more in the case of deep tech because um there is just too much more capital and people at stake right um so you just want to make sure that what you're building actually makes sense from the commercial standpoint as well.
Speaker: You can build a lot of things. I mean, not every great idea is a money making idea and not every money making idea is a great idea. So just keep that in your head when you're going about it. It has to make both ways. It has to go both ways because building in deep tech or in at least in launchers for that matter,
Speaker: Building a launcher company is different from building a venture capital bag, successful launch company. Two different things. People don't realize it. Two different mechanism mechanisms. If I had a billion dollars, the way I would approach this problem is different from how how I would approach when you have have to raise from cap venture funds and then do it.
Speaker: So just think about those. And before you, I think that that would only be my and And if you're trying to solve for a problem, make sure your problem is as big as also. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time, Manu. It was a real pleasure. you Thanks for having
