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E169: Tammy Lynn Leppert
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With the accolades she had earned in the pageant world alongside her bit roles in increasingly more well-known films, it seemed as though Tammy Lynn Leppert’s career was just about to skyrocket. That is, until something shifted and she began to grow increasingly paranoid— convinced that someone was out to kill her. Feeling that Tammy’s fears were delusions, her family sought help. But those fears soon seemed very real when, on July 6th, 1983, Tammy left home with a friend and never returned.
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Transcript
Introduction to Tammy Lynn Liebert's Early Life
00:00:00
Speaker
Linda Curtis' daughter was a child who always smiled. Unlike most children who throw tantrums or cry over the silliest thing like wanting to write with a red pencil instead of a green one, her daughter was always happy. Linda had it easy when Tammy was a child. Linda joked that Tammy, quote, woke up with a smile and went to bed with a smile, end quote.
00:00:25
Speaker
In addition to her mild nature, Tammy was also a beautiful child, with blonde, bouncing ringlet curls and big hazel eyes so bright and curious as they took in everything around her. Because of her, as her mother called it, uncommon beauty.
00:00:44
Speaker
Linda put her preschooler into pageants and became her agent in those endeavors, happily taking on the role of pageant mom to help Tammy excel. You see, Linda was a pageant coach and modeling agent in her professional capacity. She knew talent when she saw it and her own daughter had success written all over her.
00:01:09
Speaker
and excel, Tammy did, even during one of the toughest times in her little life when her parents divorced. Through it all, Tammy tried her best and almost always came out on top. Even as the years passed, it seemed there was no stopping her determined climb to the top.
The Disappearance of Tammy Lynn Liebert
00:01:29
Speaker
Until, that is, the day trip in 1983, from which she never returned home.
00:01:37
Speaker
This is the case of Tammy Lynn Liebert.
Podcast and True Crime Introduction
00:02:18
Speaker
Welcome to coffee and cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families.
00:02:37
Speaker
With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Tammy's Rise in Beauty Pageants and Acting
00:02:55
Speaker
Well, I am intrigued by this intro. Yes. So as you can tell from the introduction, practically from the time that Tammy Lynn Liebert entered this great big world on February 5th, 1965, she seemed destined for stardom. Much of Tammy's childhood and early teen years were spent as the subject of the camera or of the beholding eye when she was being photographed for magazines or she was a contestant in many
00:03:25
Speaker
many beauty pageants. And Maggie, when I say that she was in many, many beauty contests, I do not use hyperbole. Tammy was in close to 300 beauty pageants in those four years. Yeah, beginning when she was around four years old.
00:03:48
Speaker
Wow, that's impressive. I'm googling her right now because I want to see what she... Oh, she is really pretty. She looks like a Maywat model. Yeah, she's beautiful. And what's more Maggie, she brought home a crown in nearly all of the pageants that she was in. She had 280 crowns from those roughly 300 contests. That's a pretty good winning percentage.
00:04:13
Speaker
And so she's been doing this from the time she was little until this incident first. Wow. And some of those pageants, they were big ones. They were ones like Miss Teen Florida and Miss Sun and Surf. So these aren't just like little, you know. Like Miss Little Pageant Green or whatever. Right, right, yeah. So it goes without saying that most people would consider Tammy Lindley Burt stunning.
00:04:40
Speaker
Yeah. And as you just saw, she is. As an early teen, she had even earned herself a cover page image on CoverGirl magazine. Now I'd never heard, obviously have heard of CoverGirl makeup, but apparently there was a CoverGirl magazine and she was only 13 years old when she made the cover. So yeah, she has a very promising future.
00:05:02
Speaker
So her wins in the pageant world and her blossoming modeling career soon also caught the eye of movie directors who offered the teenaged Tammy Lynn small parts in various films. The first film in which Tammy Lynn had a part, this one was an uncredited role as a quote unquote party girl. That was in 1980 when Tammy Lynn was only 15.
00:05:29
Speaker
Wow. Yeah, this role was in the movie Little Darlings, which I'd never heard of. But it starred a young Tatum O'Neill and young Christy McNichol. And the premise of this film was that these two girls, Tatum O'Neill and Christy McNichol, were taking bets on who could lose their virginity first. Yeah, I've never heard of this movie. When they were in summer camp. Yes. And what kind of movie is this for teens?
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you know, every scary movie there at summer camp and if you have sex, you die. So I guess it's like a common theme. Right. And Tammy Lynn's second bit role came actually three years later as a minor again, uncredited character in the 1983 sex comedy
00:06:21
Speaker
Spring Break, another movie I have never heard of. But when I say sex comedy, I mean, similar to Little Darlings, the genre of comedy
00:06:33
Speaker
that is a sex comedy has as its central action, like this sexual situation. And in this particular film, two different pair of college boys, so four college boys in total, wind up in Florida booked to the same room. So like these two friends had booked the room for spring break, and these other two friends had booked the room for spring break. So all four of them, as you can imagine,
00:07:03
Speaker
young men on spring break. Oh, I'm sure they all have the same thing in mind. Yeah. And it's not just drinking that they have in mind. Right. I'm sure they're girl crazy.
00:07:15
Speaker
Yeah. So Tammy Lynn actually played a part in a boxing match in the film, but she is also said to have been the model for the body that is shown on the cover of and the posters for the film. And I say the body because it just shows the stomach, hips, and legs. And I just want to add a personal comment. I'm going to show you this cover.
00:07:43
Speaker
Again, side personal comment. I just find the cover of this film so distasteful. Because, and I would hope,
00:07:53
Speaker
that there wouldn't be images like this on a film today. There probably would be, but I would hope that there's not because it just shows the bottom half of this bikini clad girl. Obviously like her face doesn't matter, right? It's from her stomach down and the four protagonists of the film are planting a flag on the girl's hip. Like they're staking a claim to her. Like she's their property or they've like,
00:08:24
Speaker
It does a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And while I hope that those who worked with Tammy Lynn saw her as more than just her body or pretty face, it does seem pretty likely that her body was the one used for the film's poster for the cover art. And that based on her bit parts, it does appear that
00:08:53
Speaker
You know, probably she was booked in those parts for her beauty. Yeah, you can see I've posted them here for Maggie and I'll post them for useless hounds the pictures, not only of Tammy Lynn so you can see her face, right. And
00:09:12
Speaker
But there's also the cover of the movie. So you can tell that probably is her who was used for the cover. Yeah, especially when you look at the picture of her with the surfboard. So by the summer of 1983, Tammy Lynn was already performing in her next
00:09:33
Speaker
small scene in a movie, but this one was as a girl who provides a distraction to the lookout car. So again, cast for her looks, but this was in the 1983 film Scarface starring Al Pacino. Okay.
00:09:52
Speaker
So that's a more popular or well known, I guess I should say movie. Yes. Yeah. So at least her bit parts in these films, even if they're uncredited, they're beginning to be in. Yeah, more widely viewed films. Yeah, she's gaining like credibility and recognition. Mm hmm.
00:10:15
Speaker
She was also, and I couldn't tell, it was hard to tell based on the wording of the research because there weren't specific dates given. She was either about to film or was filming a documentary film in which she was the star that was called Cover Girl Behind the Scenes.
00:10:33
Speaker
Oh, cool. I know. But regardless, it was her role in these films that led many people who knew Tammy Lynn to say that she had mentioned a desire to move to Hollywood to see if she could, quote unquote, make it. But by make it, she really didn't mean... Yeah, she didn't really... Her goal wasn't to be some famous movie star, but she did want to have a full acting role.
00:11:04
Speaker
Like the role itself was her goal, not necessarily stardom.
The Onset of Tammy's Paranoia and Fear
00:11:08
Speaker
But before any of that could happen, Maggie, something changed in Tammy. Her family and friends noticed it after a party that she attended to celebrate the wrap of filming for Spring Break.
00:11:25
Speaker
the movie right before her part in Scarface. Okay. The movie aired in March 1983 and while I couldn't find the date of the wrap party anywhere, I'm gonna assume that it was sometime in late summer or early fall of 1982 because that would have been
00:11:48
Speaker
several months before it actually showed in movie theaters. Okay. That this event that changed Tammy happened. Okay. So she is like going about her normal career, right? She's got these little parts and then she attends a party for a movie that's supposed to air and something happens at that movie that changes her. Yeah. Something happens at that party. Okay. And unfortunately,
00:12:19
Speaker
She had gone to the party unaccompanied, and it was out of town. So we don't know what happened? Nope. We really don't know a lot about really much of anything that happened at that rap party. And I really feel like that's where further investigation into this case should start, though, because clearly something happened. And you'll see what I mean when I'll tell you how she changed.
00:12:47
Speaker
And there should be a lot of people that investigators could talk to if this is a bigger party. That's what I would, I mean, they know the actors, at least who are in the film, so they know, you know, at least the majority of people who would be at this rap party. So let me tell you a little bit about, I guess, the kind of girl Tammy was before, because
00:13:13
Speaker
when you hear about her changes, it's going to come from really her mom, the description of the changes, and from a young man named Wing Flanagan. Well, he was a young man at the time, obviously, he's an adult now. So Wing Flanagan was also a client of Tammy Lynn's mother, Linda, because remember, she's the modeling and talent agent. Right, the pageant coordinator, yeah.
00:13:39
Speaker
So Wing was also a client, but he had actually come to live with Tammy and her mom from the time he was around 11. And I didn't read anywhere why he came to live with them, but just that he did. So he grew up with Tammy like they were brother and sister. OK.
00:14:02
Speaker
And there was an anecdote I read about their relationship that I just have to share with you because I feel like it's so telling of kind of their interactions before. So when Tammy and Wing were both young and Tammy was a little bit older than Wing, she would always, as she was leaving the house, kiss him on the cheek and it would leave like the lipstick impression on his cheek.
00:14:29
Speaker
And he recalled being so embarrassed by it when he was, you know, 11 and 12 and, you know, just like rubbing it off and wiping it off and just turning red and all of that. But as the years passed, she kept doing that. Anytime she was leaving, she'd kiss him on the cheek and she'd leave that lipstick mark. But later, of course, you know, when
00:14:51
Speaker
boys are more interested in girls. That lipstick mark, he said it was a quote unquote status symbol and he was. Oh, I bet it was. Yeah, because somebody as pretty as Tammy had left it there. So, you know, later on, he's like, I'm not wiping that off, you know.
00:15:11
Speaker
I'll get some props for that. Yeah. I've gained a rep with this. That's right. But despite their close relationship, something was off with Tammy after that party. And this is according to Wing because he knew her. He could tell. And he said that when Tammy Lynn came home from that weekend getaway,
00:15:39
Speaker
that she came home, quote, a different person, end quote. And when you say he's a young man, do you mean he's 17, 18-ish age? I'm going to say he was probably, so at this time she's like 17, 18. Again, I didn't read any specifics about the age difference, but I'm going to say he was probably like,
00:16:08
Speaker
maybe three years younger okay so like 14 ish somewhere around there okay yeah yeah
00:16:17
Speaker
so when she came back he could he could tell that something was wrong and so he would continually ask her he would be like Tammy you know what's wrong what's bothering you and she would either just evade the question by changing the subject or she would laugh it off and just be like nothing's bothering me and she never told him but he could tell something was wrong and i feel like it had to be something
00:16:45
Speaker
Really bad for her not to tell basically her brother like I think it would have to be something that She thinks would worry him or you know, he might get super angry about maybe not even at her But at the circumstance she may have been put in. Mm-hmm and it went from her Just seeming off like something was bothering her to full-blown paranoia
00:17:13
Speaker
pretty quickly. So Tammy became continually paranoid, nervous that she was being watched, that she was being followed, that someone was out to get her. And you know, honestly, she has started in Hollywood and she's really pretty. She's really young. Something probably happened at the party that very much justified how she's feeling. I'm sure she was a target for a lot of
00:17:42
Speaker
creepy, nasty people. Oh, probably. Yeah. But to show you how sure she was in her mind that somebody was out to get her, at one point she looked at her mom and she said, Mom, what would you say if I told you that someone was trying to kill me? Oh my.
00:18:06
Speaker
But then her mom was like, you know, what do you mean? Why do you think that? Who do you think is trying to hurt you? And she would never answer those questions. She just said this, they would definitely kill her if she talked to anyone about what she had witnessed.
00:18:26
Speaker
This sounds kind of similar to Chuck Morgan's case, 161 that we did, where he wants his wife to move the car because he doesn't want them, air quotes, to know that he's home because they are looking for him. Right. Yeah. It's super similar. And with that case and with this one, there becomes then the speculation of, is this they?
00:18:56
Speaker
a real threat or is it delusions? But whoever they were, Tammy believed that the threat was very real. And obviously there was some type of threat because we're talking about her case today. Exactly. Right. And so that's why we're still speculating on, I guess, the full extent of what she told people.
00:19:22
Speaker
And what I'm about to detail, it truly illustrates just how nervous she was about someone trying to kill her.
00:19:32
Speaker
Tammy began, and this is like slowly developing over the months after she returned from that rap party. She started to withdraw herself from company to just become more isolated. She refused to drink from any already opened trainer because she was afraid that someone had slipped poison into it.
00:19:58
Speaker
So if something is already open, she would not drink out of it. And when she was eating, she wouldn't eat food off of the plate that she had been served unless somebody else took a bite of it first, just so she would know it wasn't poisoned before she would even take a bite at all. Or she would just eat off of other people's plates and leave her own untouched.
00:20:22
Speaker
So even like her mom makes a picture of lemonade, she's that scared. Yep. Even in her own home. Yeah. So you would think, and I think that's probably an example of the time why some people believe these were delusions is because it wasn't
00:20:47
Speaker
It wasn't as though her paranoia was focused on strangers, right? It was everybody. And so I think that and her breaking point that I'll talk to you about here in just a second, I think is why many people do believe that these were delusions, her ideas of threats.
00:21:10
Speaker
But you know, I think if you are so scared, initially it could be someone outside her home, I'm sure, you know, but she's just so scared that maybe she gets mentally to the point where she's like, I can't trust anyone. So maybe it's a little bit of both, you know, it's a real threat, but she's also so scared that it's kind of went a little unrealistic.
00:21:36
Speaker
Right. I mean, yeah, you're right. We don't know. Somebody could have said, you know, I know where you live. I know where your mom shops for food. Right. You know, and then you're like, I can't even eat.
00:21:47
Speaker
You know, and you would take it, I guess, to that extreme. Other times, Tammy would do things like she, at one point, she called Wing over to the window at the front of their home, and she said, look outside and tell me what you see. And he's like, okay, our neighbor's got a new van.
00:22:09
Speaker
And it was a van where, and I tried to see if this kind of tent was big in the 80s. I know window tent was in the 80s, but it was almost like a mirror tent to the windows where the windows of the van looked like mirrors. And after he said, you know, our neighbors got this new van, she made a comment about, yeah, now they can see us, but we can't see them. And so,
00:22:40
Speaker
That's why I was saying this paranoia, it's of nearly everyone, you know? And because it was so egregious, like I said a second ago, I think that's why her family even was beginning to feel like the delusions were just paranoia and not a real outside threat.
00:23:00
Speaker
Right. But I don't know. I just, I don't know what to think yet. I'm going to hold my judgments. Okay. There were some times when her paranoia was almost like clairvoyant because one time the phone rang and as it was ringing, Tammy looked at Wing and she said, tell that caller that I'm not home.
00:23:23
Speaker
It was almost like she knew that the call was going to be for her and not for wing or for her mom Linda or something like that, and the caller was actually calling for tammy and wing, you know, because he loves tammy she's like his sister she he told the caller you know tammy's out.
00:23:42
Speaker
She's not here, can I take a message? But she never wanted to talk on the phone. Again, she was just kind of withdrawing. But overhearing that interchange when Tammy tells Wing, tell them I'm not home, her mom, Linda, asked her daughter, she said, why don't you want to answer the phone? What's bothering you? And she reportedly said to her mother,
00:24:07
Speaker
I saw something awful, something really bad that I wasn't supposed to see. But again, when she was asked follow-up questions, she refused to say anything more. There's so many questions I have, but like I said, I'm going to hold off for a minute.
00:24:26
Speaker
Despite the drastic change in her personality, there would be momentary glimpses of the old Tammy. It's what Wing took to calling her good days. But even on those days, her mother still saw a different look in Tammy's eyes. The little girl who had smiled from daylight to sunset with those bright eyes taking in everything, now rarely smiled.
00:24:56
Speaker
She continued to withdraw herself from others and her eyes instead were filled with fear. Tammy Lynn was convinced that someone was going to murder her. She was so convinced, in fact, that a friend of hers later said that Tammy told him that she had taken to sleeping with a knife under her pillow. I wonder why she didn't go to the police.
00:25:26
Speaker
We're going to talk about the police here in a second. We'll get to that. Despite these recent changes in demeanor, Tammy Lynn did still travel to Miami in March 1983 so that she could film her part in Scarface.
Tammy's Breakdown and Last Days
00:25:43
Speaker
So all of that was happening from
00:25:46
Speaker
From the time of the wrap party, which again, I found no specific date on, but I'm going to assume was late summer, early fall of 82. So over the course of, you know, what six months, she was just slowly kind of the old Tammy was just slowly deteriorating.
00:26:13
Speaker
So she traveled to Miami in March 1983 to film that part. And while in Miami, she was staying with a family friend, Walter Leibowitz. However, four days into filming, so she'd only been down there and filming for just a few days. They were filming Tammy Lynn's scene during which
00:26:36
Speaker
Like I said, she is the distraction for the lookout driver. But during that filming, she also witnessed the filming of a particularly bloody moment in the movie where it appeared as though an actor was shot. And of course, you know, stage makeup and everything. Fake blood began squirting out.
00:26:59
Speaker
And I guess now would be a good time to fill you in on the fact that Tammy Lynn was terrified by the sight of blood. Yeah, I'm very good with needles. The goal of a film, obviously, is to make the illusion of a bloody scene look real.
00:27:19
Speaker
Apparently the talent was strong in that department for the film Scarface because Tammy Lynn was more than mortified when she witnessed that scene. And you know what else? I bet if she's scared someone is going to hurt her, I think that could almost be triggering for her, you know, if it looks so real that she couldn't tell the difference between reality and fiction.
00:27:48
Speaker
Yeah, and when I say that she was mortified, she actually had a breakdown on the set of the film and was crying so hysterically that she had to be sent back to her trailer and the casting director called Leibowitz.
00:28:05
Speaker
because he was like her guardian while she was down there in Miami. And by the time he got to her, she was still hysterical and she was talking nonstop and kind of nonsensical about how they're going to try to kill her. She witnessed a money laundering scheme. She didn't know where she went. She could hide, you know, they're going to try to kill me because of it.
00:28:32
Speaker
Those are the things that she's talking about. And of course, Leibowitz is like, what's going on? What money laundering scheme? Who's going to try to kill you? And again, he couldn't get any answers. So Leibowitz actually called Tammy's mom, Linda, immediately and told her
00:28:50
Speaker
You know, he said, first of all, Tammy is hysterical. She needs to come home, but you also need to take her to a doctor and you need to take her to the police because I don't know if what she's talking about are legitimate threats or whether these are delusions.
00:29:08
Speaker
Okay, that was going to be another question I had was if they saw it professional help because I feel like if she's sleeping with a pill or a knife under her pillow, she won't drink out of open containers, she won't eat off her plate. Even if those are legitimate fears or delusions, like he said, she needs real help. She's absolutely yes. So when Tammy Lynn came home,
00:29:32
Speaker
Linda convinced finally Tammy to talk to the local sheriff, right? You asked if she was gonna talk to police. So it took a lot of convincing, but Linda finally convinced her to go talk to the sheriff. And she did go, but purportedly, we'll talk about this a little bit later in the theories, she never spoke to law enforcement of feeling like her life was in danger. So she changed her story?
00:30:02
Speaker
I don't know if she changed it as much as maybe didn't detail anything left parts out. So, yeah. So now, you know, we have to question why wouldn't she tell police of her fears and then obviously get protection from them. And my only answer to that at this point in the episode.
00:30:27
Speaker
is that whether for a legitimate reason or not, she truly believed that if she spoke too much about what she supposedly saw that she would be killed. I mean, it happens all the time where people are like, no, I can't go to the police because if I go to the police, then, you know, these bad things will happen.
00:30:49
Speaker
And she doesn't even trust her parents or her mom and her brothers. Why would she trust the police? Right. But because she didn't mention any threat, no actions were taken by the police. As for the doctor visit that Leibowitz suggested, it didn't seem as though Linda
00:31:13
Speaker
took Tammy to have her evaluated at first and I, I feel like this happened, mostly because in the reports, they noted that
00:31:22
Speaker
Tammy, even when she came back from Miami, continued to have that mix of both good days and bad days, just like before her trip for the filming. So I'm assuming it was one of those, you know, you never want to, as much as you want to help your children through difficult situations, it's hard as a parent to admit that your child is going through the difficult situation in the first place. Yeah.
00:31:50
Speaker
And part of me wonders if, you know, Tammy having those good days was why Linda hadn't taken her, you know, maybe she's convincing herself, you know, whatever Tammy's dealing with, it's something that she can handle on her own. She's working through it. Yeah, because she's, yeah, because she's not
00:32:10
Speaker
you know, having a bad day every day, those good days are sprinkled in. So I'm sure that Linda's like, oh, you know, if it was really bad, then every day would be like this. There's, there's hope because she does still have good days. Right.
00:32:25
Speaker
But the shift in Tammy's personality came to a head though on July 1st, 1983. Wing was sitting on the couch reading when Tammy suddenly became angry with him and started yelling at Wing to stop staring at her.
00:32:45
Speaker
And he, you know, he's sitting there. He was reading a book. So he says, you know, I wasn't staring at you. So he's, he's denying it. And Tammy got even more angry. She ran through the front door, you know, through the door open, ran outside. And because she had kind of thrown the door open with such force when she exited, it closed behind her as she went out.
00:33:12
Speaker
You know what I'm saying? Like you throw the door open and because you've thrown it open and it's on a hinge, it kind of swings back. Well, when it closed behind her, the door was locked. So she was locked outside. It wasn't until she was outside and she turns back around and tries to open the door and realizes that it's locked. You know, she has that fear that whoever this they
00:33:35
Speaker
might be is out there and they're trying to get her so her anxiety heightens you know and so she's shaking the doorknob trying to get in she's banging on the front door screaming to be let back in but before a wing could even get to the front door to unlock it to let her in Tammy had grabbed a baseball bat that was in the front yard and she shattered the front window of the home
00:34:05
Speaker
to get back. Oh, so she could let herself in. So Wing opens the door to have her come back inside. You know, I'm sure he was thinking, okay, she's going to be grateful, you know, to me for letting her back in. But instead, well, I bet part of her though, thought that he locked the door.
00:34:23
Speaker
Well, she did. And so when she ran to the front door, she just started kind of hitting him with her fists and screaming at him and accusing him of locking her outside on purpose. And so her mom Linda runs in to see why Tammy's yelling.
00:34:40
Speaker
But both Linda and Wing said that they felt like Tammy was in almost some sort of a trance or a daze and that she didn't even recognize the two of them. So Linda said she just held Tammy and she just repeated, I love you. I love you. I love you over and over until Tammy had calmed.
00:35:05
Speaker
And yeah, it was after that moment, Maggie, that Linda took Tammy Lynn to the Brevard County Mental Health Center for a mental health evaluation. So Tammy Lynn was actually kept at the facility for 72 hours, during which time they tested her for drugs and alcohol in her system. She had neither.
00:35:36
Speaker
And for, well, most of the reports, this was another confusing part of the research, just said a full physical examination. It didn't mention a mental health evaluation, but she's at a mental health center. So I'm assuming that that is part of that check. Yeah, it would almost have to be. But regardless, nothing was identified.
00:36:06
Speaker
as an issue. So that makes me think that then the threat was real. Right. Yeah. If they're not able to find anything wrong with her.
00:36:18
Speaker
But when Tammy came back home on July 4th, 1983, the fear didn't dissipate. She was still convinced that she wasn't safe. She even made her mom promise on July 4th that if anything happened to her, that her mom would quote, get even with that person, end quote. So she's basically making her mom promise. Like if somebody kills me, you will get them.
00:36:50
Speaker
The next day on July 5th, 1983, Tammy hung out with one of her best friends, Rick Adams, with whom she also shared her fears of being killed because, and she had told numerous other people, just this vague concept that she had seen something that she shouldn't have seen.
00:37:15
Speaker
So that's a common thread amongst what she's telling people. In an attempt to either make her feel better, help her feel safe or both, the two of them went to a local church, to Rockville Evangel Chapel, to pray for Tammy. Rick reported that Tammy just... That's such a supportive friend. I know.
00:37:39
Speaker
Yeah, Rick reported that Tammy just sat and cried for the longest time. And after they left the church, they decided that it would be helpful for the two of them to come back to the church to pray again the next afternoon. And it was with that plan in place that Rick dropped her off at her home. Okay, so we're on July 5th. Unfortunately, by the next afternoon,
00:38:10
Speaker
Tammy was already gone. Interesting, which makes me think it wasn't of her own accord. We're going to talk about some theories. In hindsight, Rick also reported the odd goodbye that Tammy had given. When he dropped her off, she told him that she loved him and he said, you know, I love you too.
00:38:35
Speaker
And then she said something like, you know, I might be going away for a while. And yeah, he assumed that she was actually referencing a trip that she already had planned. She had already planned a three month trip to California. And, you know, he knew that that trip was coming up soon. So in his mind, he was kind of thinking that that's what she was referencing.
00:39:03
Speaker
But she could have been referencing something else. It's the reason we're talking about her today. Exactly. The following day, July 6th, 1983, was the last day Tammy Lynn Liebert was seen alive.
00:39:20
Speaker
The day began fairly routinely. Tammy Lynn was dressed in a blue denim skirt, a matching blue denim shirt with flowers on the shoulders. She had a gray purse, her sandals. She actually told her mom that she was going to go out with her friend Keith to Cocoa Beach, Florida. It was only about a 14 mile trip from Tammy's home in Rockledge, Florida.
00:39:48
Speaker
So they're just going to go not very far away. And did she hang out with Keith normally? I don't know how often she did, but he was a friend of hers.
00:40:01
Speaker
Okay. Then I'll get into more detail later. And I say the day began fairly routinely also because Tammy Lynn's mother noticed that Tammy had not brushed her hair before going out. And she noticed that detail because it was so out of character for the Tammy Lynn that she knew who would even after her shift in character,
00:40:27
Speaker
wouldn't dare go out with a single hair out of place. And here she was leaving without even having. I was more like that. I know we talk about this all the time. Why are we not you know, people who always call each other because then people would know when you know, something has happened or why don't we have super clean places because if somebody broke into my house, I don't know if they would tell if you know,
00:40:57
Speaker
things were thrown or that's just how dirty my house is. Yeah, I know. So, but that was so, so out of character for Tammy that her mom, it, it stuck out to her mom. And so as Tammy strolled out the door, she said to her mom, bye mom, I'll see you in a little bit. Okay. And it was just something about,
00:41:24
Speaker
the look that Tammy had when she was walking out, the way she said that, there was something that gave Linda this feeling in her gut as she walked Tammy, watched Tammy get into Keith's car that said, I need to go out and I need to at least look at her because this could be the last time that I'm seeing her.
00:41:47
Speaker
And so she did. She went outside, she watched as Tammy was driving away and she just couldn't shake that feeling that this was the last time that she would ever see Tammy and her feeling was right. Mother's intuition.
The Last Known Sightings and Disappearance
00:42:05
Speaker
According to Tammy's friend, Keith, and at this point, Maggie, he's the last person to see her alive. So really all we have to go on is
00:42:16
Speaker
what he tells us has happened. So according to Keith, he said that Tammy had called him up and asked him to drive to see her. He was actually working as a banker in Lakeland, Florida at the time, which was almost two hours away from Rockledge. But he agreed. Oh, so that's a little weird, I think. Yeah, I mean, that's a distance to come.
00:42:46
Speaker
So he had agreed to come and pick her up. And she had also reportedly requested money from him to borrow $300, which he said he gave her. But one report actually stated that he owed her that money and he was repaying it to her. Then it might make a little bit more sense, especially if she wants money to be like, hey, come and see me, bring me the money you owe me.
00:43:16
Speaker
You know what I mean. And I think this could be or play into a potential theory I'm sure we're probably going to talk about. It does. Problematically during that day outing with her friend Keith.
00:43:38
Speaker
And I don't know if this happened on the way to the beach or the way back from the beach because most reports said he picked her up around 11am. And the next event that I'm about to tell you about happened around 1pm. So that's two hours, but they're only 14 miles from the beach. So I don't know if they but then who drives to the beach and then only spends an hour and then drives back. So I don't know.
00:44:07
Speaker
how these two hours played out. But the two are in the car and they end up getting into an argument.
00:44:18
Speaker
When interviewed by law enforcement, Keith said that the argument was about his unwillingness to drive Tammy to Fort Lauderdale, as she was requesting. So remember, he'd already driven about two hours to see Tammy, and she was wanting him to drive her to go to another friend's house who lived in Fort Lauderdale. And
00:44:47
Speaker
He says, you know, I'm not going to drive to Fort Lauderdale. That's, you know, two and a half to three hours away. Right. So he's like, I just drove two hours. I don't want to drive another, you know, two and a half to three. And he said that right. Yeah. He said that was the issue that when he refused that Tammy Lynn, then he says demanded to get out of the car.
00:45:15
Speaker
Like fine, let me out then. Let me out. So he says he obliged and he actually dropped Tammy Lynn off alone in a parking lot beside of an Exxon gas station off of State Road A1A near the Glass Bank Building in downtown Cocoa Beach sometime that afternoon. Oh, I can already tell. I'm sure that Keith has a lot of a lot of guilt. Oh, I'm sure.
00:45:45
Speaker
I'm sure. And some reports said, and again, others didn't, so I don't know which version is true. Some reports said that when she got out of Keith's car, that she had actually left her purse and her sandals in his car. And so here she is barefoot and without her purse.
00:46:11
Speaker
Other versions don't say anything about her being, you know, shoeless and moneyless. But when she gets dropped off, she actually starts making some phone calls. So from there, we know that Tammy Lynn called her aunt Ginger's costume shop because her aunt had this shop actually in Cocoa Beach.
00:46:40
Speaker
Right. And that's where she has been dropped off. She called three separate times to her aunt's shop and she left increasingly frantic messages. However, her aunt couldn't answer because her aunt didn't even know Tammy was calling her aunt was out of town. So of course those phone calls went unanswered.
00:47:07
Speaker
Tammy then tried to call another friend looking for a ride, but that friend also didn't answer. And after those phone calls, Maggie... And she is so paranoid anyways. I bet this just...
00:47:23
Speaker
I'm sure the message can you get more and more frantic because right. Yeah. She's realized she's by herself now. They're going to get her for sure. Positive. The calls got more frantic. They did. And after those phone calls Maggie. Tammy Lynn Liebert vanished. Wow. And again.
00:47:48
Speaker
I know we're gonna talk about this but it's like was it the they or was it Tammy because at this point I think it could be either one cuz she's by herself but then she's probably so frantic it could have been on her own accord as well
00:48:02
Speaker
Right. And we're going to talk about all of those theories. So when the hours began to pass without Tammy returning home, Linda began calling all of Tammy's friends, but none of them had seen her nor spoken with Tammy. And that's when Linda called the police. But because Tammy was 18, I know not just you, Mack, all of our listeners can guess what the police told Linda.
00:48:30
Speaker
Yeah, she's an adult. She probably left on her own. Yep. And that's exactly what they told her. And so, you know, she, they said, well, she'll probably just turn back up. But of course you already know, because we're talking about her case, she didn't.
00:48:50
Speaker
So a missing persons report was finally filed on July 11th, 1983, five days after Tammy had last been seen. Wow. We know the first 48. Oh, I know. I know. And we've long passed that.
00:49:09
Speaker
Her case actually aired in the premiere episode of season five of Unsolved Mysteries in September 1992. However, there have been some criticisms of the reenactment and description of Tammy Lynn's case on the show. For example, they showed Keith's car as a black car, but the real car was either a white Corvette or a blue Maverick.
00:49:38
Speaker
They said- And it's weird that we don't know that because wouldn't Keith know the Cory was driving? Right, exactly. They said that she was five foot two or five foot three, but her sister says that she was actually an inch or two taller than that, that she was around five foot four. And although the show described her home being in Cocoa Beach, it was actually, as I mentioned previously, in Rockledge, Florida.
00:50:04
Speaker
Wow, so there were lots of wrong. Yeah, lots of inconsistencies. But unfortunately, all of the leads that came in as a result of the airing of the show ended up being dead ends.
00:50:16
Speaker
Now there are several theories as to what happened to Tammy Lynn after those phone calls.
Speculations on Tammy's Intentions and Mental State
00:50:23
Speaker
And some of them require some backstories, which is why I'm kind of getting into the theories earlier in this week's case. So I'm going to outline each of them. And then as always, I want to know which theory you think is most likely. Gotcha. So theory number one, Tammy ran away intentionally.
00:50:45
Speaker
After her disappearance, several of Tammy's friends were interviewed by law enforcement and the common thread among their answers as to speculation of what happened to Tammy was that she left voluntarily. They stated- Wow, her friends and family said that? Not her family, her friends.
00:51:06
Speaker
They stated that Tammy really wasn't happy at home and that she and her mother argued frequently about Tammy's career choices and that Tammy just couldn't wait to get out of the house.
00:51:21
Speaker
Her friend Keith, the one that she was with that last day, reportedly said that Tammy was also extremely angry with her mom about the psychiatric evaluation and being in that hospital for 72 hours and that she just wanted to leave home. But I don't know if this is one of those normal teenager conversations and it was just all talk. Yeah, that's what I was about to say.
00:51:51
Speaker
Any teenager would be mad at their parent for having them psychologically evaluated for 72 hours.
00:51:57
Speaker
I think that's a normal response for her. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, how many teens are probably like, oh, I can't wait to be out of here when really they would ball their eyes out, you know, when they have to leave. But Linda did agree that she and Tammy got into arguments. I mean, per usual for teens and their parents. But Linda said that none of them were so catastrophic to their relationship that Tammy would have to run away.
00:52:28
Speaker
And Linda actually argued as well that, you know, Tammy's just about to go on a three month trip to California. If she's so desperate to get away, she's just about to leave. So why was she running away, you know, days before she's getting ready to leave anyway? So she says that doesn't really make any sense. And I wonder why she would run away if she's on the brink of having her
00:52:55
Speaker
career takeoff, she's starring in increasingly more well-known movies. So I think that's a little weird too. Several months after Tammy Lynn was last seen, Cocoa Beach police detective Harold Lewis actually received two separate phone calls from an unnamed woman. The woman told him that Tammy was alive and that she would return home, but only when the time was right.
00:53:24
Speaker
That was the content of the first call. The second phone call, this anonymous woman also assured the detective that Tammy was alive and well, and that she had actually left of her own accord to begin the life that she had always wanted, going to school to be a nurse. Okay. So are these two people, they were two different women? No, the same woman.
00:53:55
Speaker
These are the same woman who calls twice. And Detective Lewis actually told a reporter from Florida today in 1985, quote, I have a gut feeling that Tammy just split, end quote. However.
00:54:14
Speaker
It was really the content of this second phone call from this anonymous woman that Tammy's family says, there is no way those phone calls are legitimate. First, Tammy wanted to be an actress, right? She had never even mentioned being a nurse. And second, what is Tammy terrified of?
00:54:37
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I forgot that she was really scared of blood. So why would she want to be a nurse when she would be around that every day? Exactly. Yeah, that's not exactly a prime quality and somebody who wants to be a nurse is being terrified of blood. Theory number two is that Tammy had a psychotic break and maybe doesn't remember who she is. Okay, I feel this one a little bit. Mm hmm.
00:55:04
Speaker
Tammy Lynn, many argue, was suffering from persecutory delusions at the time. That is often a frequent marker of schizophrenia. So this. Okay. I was going to say when she had the episode with the boy, what was his name? With Wang. Yes. That it sounded like she was almost having a manic episode of some sort. Mm hmm.
00:55:32
Speaker
Yeah, so these these delusions this fear of someone out to get you that's not real is like I said, it can be a marker of schizophrenia and schizophrenia actually normally presents itself in young men around their late teens to early 20s, but usually not in women until mid to late 20s, but it can begin to manifest in
00:56:00
Speaker
like the late teenage years. And it can also be brought about by trauma. So if she did, I mean, certain things that she said could potentially be true, she might have witnessed something that was traumatic to her. And it kind of brought on
00:56:20
Speaker
these schizophrenic episodes. So she might have had a psychotic break as a result of schizophrenia or even of something like PTSD.
00:56:32
Speaker
which could also have been caused by seeing something or experiencing something distressing. So those who argue the legitimacy of this theory, of this psychotic break, they argue that Tammy might not even remember who she is. So if she is alive out there somewhere, right, she could have been so
00:56:55
Speaker
disassociated from her former life because of these delusions that she was having, that she no longer even remembers who she is. Because remember in that moment when she's breaking the front window, both Linda and Wing said it was like she didn't even recognize who they were. And that's what I was saying with the blood in that one scene with Scarface. I wonder, you know, that just triggered something in her. And I wonder if she had a similar
00:57:22
Speaker
instance here and it just triggered like her PTSD or triggered that break for her. Now she just doesn't know who she is. Right now because of this theory her DNA has been compared with several several Jane Doe's who were discovered over the years but she has yet to be a match to any of them. Theory number three is that Tammy legitimately saw or heard something that she shouldn't have.
00:57:51
Speaker
and that she met with foul play as a result. One theory that Tammy's mom, Linda, and some of her friends and family have held firm to is that fact that they believe that Tammy met with foul play under circumstances that she herself had outlined to all of those people. Remember I said that's a common thread, that she said she saw something that she shouldn't have seen.
00:58:21
Speaker
So now they believe that maybe her quote-unquote delusions weren't so delusional after all and that's kind of the guilt that they're feeling is Why didn't we take it more seriously? You know, why didn't I set her down and say you're not leaving until you tell me who they are Yeah, right you can't think that way I think that would drive you crazy Mm-hmm
00:58:47
Speaker
So, you know, in hindsight though, I get what you're saying, you know, you can't play the what if game, but in hindsight, they're thinking, you know, she did say that someone was out to kill her and now she's gone, right? She's disappeared. So they actually do believe that she did overhear something or see something at that rap party that she shouldn't have seen and that she was killed because of it.
00:59:14
Speaker
So their leading theory is that her disappearance is somehow connected to a local drug trafficking ring. Linda even, Linda even intimated at one point that she thought it was possible that Tammy had somehow gotten involved in a drug and money laundering scheme. Cause remember when she's down in Florida, in Miami,
00:59:42
Speaker
She's always in Florida. When she was down in Miami with Leibowitz, she was telling him about this money laundering scheme. I wonder if what evidence she had to jump to that. Yeah, because that seems really odd, a really odd thing to say, you know, like something about money laundering. But according to the Unsolved Mysteries episode about Tammy's case,
01:00:11
Speaker
They mentioned that the U.S. Customs Service at the time did report that there were several money laundering cases in Florida at the time that were being investigated by the FBI. But obviously we don't know if there's any connection. If there was any connection. More specifically, Tammy had reportedly told Linda also a single time, just once,
01:00:39
Speaker
that a friend had confided in Tammy that a large money laundering scheme was actually being operated in Brevard County, where Tammy lived, that involved local law enforcement and even well-known citizens of the community. So conspiracy theorists, now I'm gonna go back to that going to the cops to make
01:01:07
Speaker
the statement, right? Conspiracy theorists wonder if Tammy did actually report some of the information to law enforcement, that she believed that there was a money laundering scheme, things that she saw, right? That she actually told law enforcement about it when her mom made her visit the station, but that the report was never filed.
01:01:34
Speaker
because it would have implicated people within the department. That's what conspiracy theorists say. Theory number four, Tammy's friend, Keith, the last person to see her alive.
Suspicions and Theories on Tammy's Disappearance
01:01:53
Speaker
This friend was at least someone with whom Tammy's mother felt should have been looked into further.
01:02:03
Speaker
because you asked me how often they hung out and if they knew each other well. Well, Tammy's mom actually told police later that Tammy was, and this was according to several reports in my research, afraid of Keith. Never read why. Interesting. But said that she was afraid of him.
01:02:31
Speaker
So I wonder then if the trip was planned by Keith or planned by Tammy for him to come get her. Right. So all we know is he says that she called him. Right. We're taking his word for all of it actually. Right. But I will say I mean most of the reports said that he kind of pulled up outside and just honked his horn and she came out. And I mean if she didn't know to expect him
01:02:59
Speaker
then she definitely wouldn't have done that. But I wonder if she initiated the phone calls to him like hey come see me or if he called and was like I'm coming to see you. Yeah that I do not know. Do not know. I will say kind of keeping in line with what Tammy's mom Linda said about how she feels like he should have been investigated further. A couple of sources said that
01:03:26
Speaker
Keith refused to take a polygraph, which I don't necessarily blame him on that, and I'm not judging him on that. But I also read that he, two separate times, denied interviews with law enforcement. Interesting. That makes me feel like he has something to hide. Yeah, he wasn't really cooperative at first, and yet he is not considered a suspect in Tammy's case.
01:03:56
Speaker
but he's the last person to see her. I know. Yeah. So you would think, you know, we at least need to look into him. So I don't know if they didn't consider him a suspect because
01:04:08
Speaker
You know, they verified maybe that Tammy Lynn had made those phone calls and that they were made from right at the location where he says he left her and maybe around the same time that he says he left her. And, you know, maybe he even has a solid alibi after he leaves her there. But if he drove back home, there's two hours that you can't really account for. You're just saying I was driving and again,
01:04:34
Speaker
I didn't read why he isn't considered a suspect, but if he doesn't have a solid alibi, you know, or if it's just, well, I was driving back home or something like that, then what would have been stopping him from leaving her there for a while to maybe let off steam or something and then coming back? Right. Or just lying about the whole thing. Right. He never dropped her off. Yeah.
01:04:58
Speaker
Tammy's mom, Linda, actually feels as though he was not investigated nearly as thoroughly as he should have been. In fact, one of the sources in my research stated that his car was never even tested for evidence. Wow. Wow, that's strange. Yeah. Theory five, a man named John Brennan Crutchley,
01:05:25
Speaker
a serial killer. Yeah, three names. Crutchly is suspected of kidnapping, raping and killing as many as 30 different women. Wow. He was called the vampire rapist. After one abduction, rape and killing, he actually drained the body of some of its blood and
01:05:52
Speaker
He was believed to have taken his first victim in 1977, so several years before Tammy's case, but he was active in this area of Florida at the time that Tammy disappeared. In fact, he had moved to Brevard County in 1983, only two months before Tammy disappeared.
01:06:20
Speaker
Okay, so this is a real possibility. I wonder does he get his MO? I didn't read if like most of the women who he had killed were a certain look just that they were, you know, he was in this vicinity around the same time.
01:06:47
Speaker
In late November 1985, he was charged with rape in Brevard County. And in that same year, there's another woman who it's suspected that he murdered. Her name was Patty Lou Volanski from Mims, Florida, and that woman
01:07:11
Speaker
lived only about 30 minutes north of Rockledge where Tammy lived. But we will likely never have final answers to whether Crutchley was actually involved because he committed suicide in 2002 while incarcerated. And he didn't give a list of people he had killed or anything? Right, right. And, you know,
01:07:40
Speaker
He's never been officially linked by law enforcement to Tammy's case and without her body. There's really little to no way of knowing whether he's the perpetrator, like whether she fits his mo right theory number six.
01:07:57
Speaker
is Christopher Bernard Wilder. Any guesses? Another serial killer. Yeah, another serial killer. And he might actually be one that you Maggie or maybe some of our listeners have heard about. So let me tell you about this Christopher Bernard Wilder. He has been linked by the FBI to the abduction of at least 12 women
01:08:21
Speaker
and to the murders of no fewer than eight young women across the US, all the way from Florida through Texas, Oklahoma, Nevada, California, and New York. He definitely was in the area. But many of his victims in the early to mid 80s were in Florida.
01:08:43
Speaker
In fact, one of his victims, Teresa Waite Ferguson, was taken from a mall just eight miles away from Cocoa Beach. Right where Tammy is. Though that abduction actually happened in early 1984. I remember Tammy disappears July 1983. But let me tell you about Wilder's MO.
01:09:13
Speaker
He would entice these young women into meeting him or coming to his home by saying that he was a photographer for famous magazines and modeling companies. And that they would be a perfect model for him. Because of those lies, Wilder's nickname became the beauty queen killer. OK, so she definitely fits with his demo. Yeah.
01:09:42
Speaker
And he may have even seen her if he's going to, you know, pageants or things like that. And side note, what is so sad to me about the victims of Wilder is that had he actually been detained long before when he should have been, so many more people would still be alive today. Because most of the murders that we know of from Wilder began in early 1984.
01:10:12
Speaker
But according to an article by Kim Pascolini, Wilder faced charges of gang rape in 1962. Wow. So like 22 years before the murders that we know of, but he only got one year of probation. And in 1971. This is like your Patreon case you did, Allison. Oh, I know. Yeah.
01:10:37
Speaker
In 1971, he was charged with soliciting young women for nude photographs. And all he got was a small fine for disturbing the piece. So slap on the wrist. He raped a 16 year old in 1976 and attempted to rape a 17 year old in 1979. And for those crimes, he was put on five years probation.
01:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, he should have been in jail. Yeah. Wilder, who was from Australia, was allowed to go back to Sydney to visit his parents when in 1982, he abducted two 15-year-old girls, stripped them naked, and took pornographic pictures of them. And for that crime, he posted bail and was allowed to come back to the US.
01:11:32
Speaker
They should have been like, no, you can keep him. Yeah. And then the next thing we know of is the crime spree in early 1984. But you're really going to have me believe that nothing happened in the two years from when he came back to the US in 1982 to the murders that we know of in 1984. Right. Nothing happened that he got caught for. Right.
01:11:56
Speaker
Tammy Lynn's mom, Linda, actually sued Wilder's estate, believing that he might in some way be connected to her daughter's disappearance. She has publicly shared that she, this is originally, so she originally believed that Wilder actually knew her daughter, Tammy. She says that they had met while Tammy was on set for the filming of the movie Spring Break.
01:12:27
Speaker
She further indicated that Wilder, or at least someone who looked just like him, had come to their home once and tried to convince Linda to let him photograph Tammy.
01:12:44
Speaker
Linda told a reporter from the Miami Herald, quote, he's been in there looking for models, a man who looks very much like him. If it's not him, it's someone who looks so much like him, he's a twin, end quote.
01:13:03
Speaker
Early on in the investigation, FBI agent Clifford Botyos told the same reporter from the Miami Herald, quote, we are not discounting it and we're not counting it at this point. She's a model. That's a common characteristic. There's always that possibility, but at this point, there's nothing definite, end quote, when he was talking about connections with Wilder.
01:13:31
Speaker
The lawsuit was paused, however, when doubts began to arise that Wilder was actually involved. After all, other than location in Florida, there's no physical proof that would link him to Tammy Lynn's disappearance. Right. It's just a lot of coincidences.
01:13:55
Speaker
coincidentally went after girls that looked like her. He was in the area. Yeah. Mm hmm. Authorities have additionally never officially linked Wilder to Tammy. However, we again will never know because Wilder was killed in a police shootout in 1984. So could Tammy have been one of his victims?
01:14:18
Speaker
Right? Most of his victims were taken from public places. Maybe she even recognized him. You know, if she had seen him before, like her mother indicated, you know, around her house or at a modeling agency or on the movie set, you know, maybe she recognized him and believed he was somebody that she could trust.
01:14:39
Speaker
And for all we know, he's the beauty queen killer. There's reports that he could potentially have been on the set of Spring Break. What if that's what she witnessed? Oh, that's interesting. So then it kind of ties in full circle. Like she saw him doing something that she shouldn't have seen and he shouldn't have been doing. And now he comes after her. And because of his connections to kind of the beauty industry,
01:15:23
Speaker
I know i'm throwing it out there because obviously it is a possibility we don't have any specifics for this theory but i did want to bring it up because you know could it be possible that someone saw tammy walking by herself along the road and they stopped to offer help or offer a ride you know i don't know if i believe this one either maggie because i don't know if i believe
01:15:29
Speaker
He knows where to find her.
01:15:52
Speaker
because of Tammy's fears that this quote unquote they would try to kill her, that she would have taken a ride from someone, especially a stranger. Yeah, that's what I was about to say. Yeah, she would be a little too paranoid for that, I think. Yeah, I guess it could still be the case that maybe somebody offered her a ride and she declined it though. And then, you know, they got angry and they hurt her or something like that.
01:16:17
Speaker
Cocoa Beach Police Department Criminal Investigation Division Lieutenant Bud Ayers told reporter Billy Cox of Florida Today in 2008, quote, the world's a different place than it was back then. There wasn't the awareness that we have today. I'm not even sure that they had the term sexual predator in those days, end quote.
01:16:42
Speaker
So he's almost seeming to say, you know, it could have been a sexual predator who is driving by, sees this pretty girl all by herself. Nobody's around. And he acts on it. Yeah, she could even be in like a sex trafficking ring. Mm hmm. Yeah. Theory eight, somebody else who knew her. Now, this is a quick theory, but I feel like it's worth mentioning.
01:17:12
Speaker
nearly every report on Tammy had a little side note that mentioned that she may have been three months pregnant. Okay, that is a little as little interest. Yeah, and it was connected to nothing. Like there was never any indication of who the dad might be or anything like that, just that she may have been three months pregnant.
01:17:40
Speaker
is believed that she found out about the pregnancy during that three days that she spent in the hospital when they did the complete physical examination and evaluation. Because she was so young, I question, could that be why she was crying in the church? Or could she have been raped and she didn't
01:18:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it might also explain like you're saying, I mean, depending on whether she had decided not to keep the baby or to keep the baby. And again, this is all, you know, hinging upon the fact that she is pregnant. It might also explain if she doesn't want to keep the baby why she needed the money. Right, if she planned on something like an abortion and maybe even why she wanted to leave town and go to Fort Lauderdale.
01:18:36
Speaker
Right? Does she want to have some sort of operation there? You know, why is she going there? Yeah, far away from home. Right. Or, you know, if she's going to keep the baby, was that what she meant when she told Rick that she might be going away for a while? You know what I mean? Like, does she want to leave kind of town to have the baby? You know, we don't know if she was pregnant. Did she tell whoever was the father? You know, maybe she
01:19:06
Speaker
called somebody else after she called the people that we know about. Or maybe even because of her desperation of being alone and not being able to contact anyone, maybe she did accept a ride from somebody who she wouldn't normally have.
01:19:21
Speaker
And maybe that could explain her moods there that were like, you know, switching and she seemed kind of depressed, withdrawn because, you know, not everybody has positive pregnancy experiences and some people do suffer from depression early on in their pregnancy. So it could have been something like that.
01:19:39
Speaker
And I mean, it could be a combination of some of the theories, you know, maybe she did see something that led to true paranoia, but then she actually met foul play from a stranger or a serial killer. You know, it could be a combination of them or it could even be something else entirely. And to illustrate that, I'm going to throw in one final theory that
01:20:04
Speaker
is kind of related to a serial killer or to the stranger crime of opportunity theory that Tammy's disappearance is somehow related to another murder that happened that of Nancy K. Brown who was also last seen in Cocoa Beach, Florida and abducted one month to the day before Tammy on June 6th, 1983.
01:20:36
Speaker
Her remains were later found on March 8, 1984, and they were, of course, identified as Nancy's. But her killer has never been
01:20:47
Speaker
identified and this is a theory that perhaps Tammy's older sister Suzanne believes. Now, I'll be honest, this information for this last theory, it actually comes from a post on Porch Light International for the missing and unidentified and it was made by someone named Susan.
01:21:07
Speaker
Who says that she is Tammy's sister and Tammy does have a sister named Suzanne so I don't know for sure that she made this post I'm gonna assume so I actually tried to contact Suzanne for an interview for this episode But I hadn't heard back from her by the time obviously we're recording this However, this is what a portion of that post is
01:21:31
Speaker
from Suzanne reads, quote, I did extensive study into Nancy K. Brown and all the unsolved murders in Brevard County, Florida. No one would ever discuss this with me. Nancy K. Brown came up missing one month to the day before Tammy came up missing and almost in the same area. I tried to push the lead of the mechanic
01:21:59
Speaker
at the Cocoa Beach Exxon station in 1983. If anyone finds out who he was, please tell me, okay? Maybe picking Tammy up and possibly Nancy K. Brown or possibly the same person picking them both up.
01:22:17
Speaker
I investigated and around this area was Ron John Surf Shop. Apparently there was prostitution around this area. I have thought maybe someone was abducting women who were walking, thinking that they were prostitutes. There were many prostitutes over the years found dead in Brevard County, Florida and never looked into."
01:22:42
Speaker
So she's kind of thinking, could there be a mechanic or somebody who works at that Exxon station since that's right near where both of these women disappeared within a month of one another, or maybe somebody from that surf shop, or maybe because Tammy would have been walking the streets by herself that someone assumed that she was a prostitute, and because there had been so many murders of prostitutes in this county, could that explain it?
01:23:11
Speaker
So Maggie, what are your thoughts? So I think I'm kind of leaning between a couple different ones. I almost wonder if it's the she doesn't know who she is now theory. I don't think she ran away from home. Keith is interesting just because I feel like he should have been questioned more and more cooperative with the police and their investigation.
01:23:41
Speaker
And then all these serial killer theories are interesting too. I know. I don't know. I mean, this is one that usually there's, there are theories where we're like, no, no, we're letting that one out. But this is one of those cases where almost every single theory could be the answer. You know what I mean? Yeah.
01:24:06
Speaker
I just, I don't know. I keep going back to why did she want to go to Fort
Linda Curtis's Search for Answers
01:24:11
Speaker
Lauderdale? But again, we're hearing that from Keith. So maybe she really didn't, you know? So I don't know who to trust or what.
01:24:24
Speaker
Tammy's mother fought for answers and for justice for her daughter until the very end. In fact, in 1995, at the age of 54, Linda sat in her hospital bed, rejected for a liver and kidney transplant because of her degenerative heart disease, voicing her dying wish that someone come forward with information about Tammy.
01:24:48
Speaker
Linda stated to reporter Billy Cox of Florida Times, quote, there's always the possibility that somebody will feel sorry for me. I don't want anybody to feel sorry for me, she declared in a voice just above a whisper. But if that's what it takes to get the right person to come forward, that's okay. I won't be able to bring charges against anybody. I just want to know, end quote.
01:25:15
Speaker
That same reporter, Billy Cox, in his September 20th, 1995 article, Dying Mother Keeps Fighting for Clues for Daughters Fate, he related Linda's current situation to a memory that she holds close to her heart. He wrote, quote, looking back, Curtis says one of the first films she ever saw, Peter Pan, turned out to not only be her favorite, but her daughter's favorite as well.
01:25:44
Speaker
The cinematic treatment about the boy who never wanted to grow up apparently wove symbolic threads throughout their lives. I always wanted to grow up to be Wendy so I could take care of Peter Pan, she says. When I found out Peter Pan wasn't real, it broke my heart. In a curious twist of life and art, Curtis is now the caretaker of an image, suspended in memory.
01:26:12
Speaker
of the child that never grew up." It's an image that she sadly held onto to the very end as Linda Curtis passed away in 1995 shortly after that article was published. The image of Tammy as the blonde bombshell with a bright eyes and wide smile has become her legacy.
01:26:37
Speaker
At the time of her disappearance, Tammy Lynn Leipert was between 5'4 and 5'5, weighing between 105 and 115 pounds, with curly blonde hair and hazel eyes. An age progression image of what Tammy may look like now will be added to our social media posts about the case. Anyone with information concerning Tammy Lynn Leipert's disappearance should contact the Cocoa Beach Police Department at 321-868
01:27:06
Speaker
or email them at police at cityofcoco Beach.com.
01:27:15
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
01:27:45
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.
01:28:14
Speaker
Before we get into our love notes, I think we should remind all our listeners about our giveaway that is open to everyone. So the OGs and the newbies alike. Let's do it. The prize for the giveaway is your choice of an item from our Etsy shop. Which is a pretty sweet prize if you ask me. I think so. Yeah.
01:28:40
Speaker
And remember that there are multiple ways that you can earn entries. As proof of your entries, you'll just need to take a screenshot and email them to us at coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. And if you've already done one of the things, you can still earn entries as long as you send us a picture as proof. And so here's the things that you can do, or if you've already done, can earn you an entry.
01:29:04
Speaker
So one is recommend us on social media and tag at least two friends who you think would enjoy this show. So you just tag them and tag us by using the at symbol in front of their names and in front of coffee and cases podcast and then it will populate. So we'll know. And then another way is you could write us a five star written review which we will love you eternally for.
01:29:30
Speaker
Yeah. And we've gotten some of those and they made my day. So keep them coming. And then a third way that you could enter, which I think is a win-win for everyone is that you join Patreon. And for this giveaway, you'll get one entry for the $2 level, two entries for the $5 or $7 levels, three entries for the $12 level, four entries for the $15 level and five for the $20 level.
01:29:56
Speaker
and we have put that link in our show notes. And then a fourth way, see there's all kinds of ways people, is purchase something from the Etsy shop.
01:30:04
Speaker
So you got lots of chances to win something appropriate. The link for Etsy is also in the show notes. And when you email us your proof of your entries, would you also please let us know what item from our Etsy shop you would like to win and if it's clothing, what size? And that's it. We are going to give you until March 6th to enter, which sounds like it's far away, but it's really not. It's really not. Just a couple of weeks away.
01:30:31
Speaker
And we will announce the winner on our March 9th episode. So hurry up and get those in because you don't want to miss this chance. That's right. And now it's our favorite time of the episode, which is the love notes time. And we have so many. This has been a good week. We want to send love to Dana, Tricia, Kara, Joanna, Courtney, Barb,
01:30:57
Speaker
Laura and Sharon for either reaching out to us on social media or email or recommending our podcasts to other people. We couldn't continue the amazing amount of growth that we've seen without people like you. So thank you so much. Absolutely. Yeah. We have big love notes also going out to the nine five star review writers that we've gotten since last week.
01:31:24
Speaker
And we're not going to read them all in their entirety, but I do want to highlight all of the names plus read a couple of the reviews. So Libra luck 007 wrote, I heard about this podcast from the gone cold podcast just a few days ago. I'm now on the 100th episode.
01:31:40
Speaker
way to go. Wow. I know that's some dedication. And this podcast is just amazing. At first, I wasn't sure about the style, but now I love it because it's a breath of fresh air compared to other more dry and to the point podcasts.
01:31:56
Speaker
I love these ladies and how they tell the important details about these cold cases. I also love that they led us into their personal lives and we get to know them as well. So glad to have found the podcast." And we are equally as glad that you did. Yeah, that was an amazing review. When I read that, I had the biggest smile on my face.
01:32:20
Speaker
And we also want to send a lot of love to Dana Lee 48 who found us from another promo swap and said that we seem genuine. And she looks forward to listening to our podcast and also love to death con 27 who said that our podcast is their new favorite. We also love to hear. Yes. JPS 364 and Kristen Kim.
01:32:42
Speaker
Both wrote reviews saying that we have engaging storytelling styles, which thank you. And K M 9 8 6 5 4 and hopes soulmate said that they were glad to have found our pod. And again, we're super glad as well. And then Jay Lenz author wrote that she loves our Southern twang and peel back the layers in the cases that we cover. So we have so much love and appreciation to all of you who wrote those reviews.
01:33:14
Speaker
And finally, we have Mounds and Mounds of Love going out to Trisha who wrote, quote, while I love a good true crime podcast, one thing I don't love is the colorful language that so many other podcasters feel is necessary to tell their stories. Coffee and Cases does a good job of just telling the story to help get justice for the victim. That's exactly what I want to hear in a true crime podcast. These girls are so funny and their personalities are so sweet. I could totally picture myself hanging out and having coffee with them someday, end quote. Well,
01:33:43
Speaker
Trisha, you are already our friend, obviously. And so we totally picture having coffee with you or hot chocolate in my case as well. Yes, we do. We love Trisha. We do. And speaking of love, I also have a ton of love for Sharon.
01:34:00
Speaker
who is going to get an extra love note for joining our CNC Patreon fam. And while we were recording, I actually got another notification. So I'm just going to go ahead and send out some more love right now.
01:34:18
Speaker
who also joined our CNCFAM last minute edition there. Look at us! So we are so excited to have you as part of the CNCFAM and we would actually love to see even more of you over on our Patreon page as a member if you haven't joined yet.
01:34:37
Speaker
And if you haven't joined, what are you waiting for? Because there's all kinds of bonus episodes over there that are solved cases. We have tons and tons of mini episodes, all starting for just $7 a month. Plus, as Allison alludes to, nearly every episode, if you join at the $12, $15, or $20 per month level,
01:34:58
Speaker
then you will get in on a quarterly swag box and those have been super cool as well and your level will determine the amount of items that go into your box so there's incentive to join at the higher levels but all of the items are fantastic that are in those.
01:35:13
Speaker
And if you want to be part of the next round, join one of those years for March through May. So you got time to get in for the next round. And here's a little hint. We are going to need your shirt size for this next swag box. We are.
01:35:30
Speaker
Mm-hmm. If you want gifts or just the gift of bonus content then patreon is obviously for you So just head over to patreon.com slash coffee and cases or click the link and our show notes to join And with that all of our love is going out to each and every one of you until next week's loot towns