Transcript
Speaker: Hey everybody, this is editor Danny coming in here before our episode starts. um Just a couple little things. So I experienced a power outage in this episode at the very end, which is kind i guess, good timing. So Shane ends up having to close out the episode just because my power completely went out for a couple minutes.
Speaker: But the big thing that's going to affect you guys, and I apologize for that ahead of time, is that because the power went out, i you know my computer shut down, I had to reboot it. And going back into the um website that we used to record, I lost all my files for the episode. And so I had to do what's called a cloud recover. So you know I have to download it off of the cloud to get the files back for the episode. And because of that, the audio quality is just horrendous. There's going to be little clips and little buggy things throughout the audio. So So apologies for that. I just wanted to let you guys know going into this episode, it's not going to be very clear. There's going to be some like little buggy things. You'll still be able to hear the main points and you know all of us talking, but it's going to be kind of glitchy. So just a heads up, that is not normal. That is not what it's supposed to sound like. It's just because I do not have the files. They literally disappeared. I had to go download them off the the cloud to get them back just so you guys could hear the episode. So apologies.
Speaker: Just wanted to give you a heads up. Hope you guys enjoy the episode. Thanks. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to episode 10. We're 10 episodes in to the Table Talk Recap Podcast.
Speaker: I'm really excited for today's discussion. I have Shane with me. ah Again, a reminder for you guys, we're still in that EFCA statement of faith, just the doctoral statements. um And it was a great treat. We got Shane to preach.
Speaker: Finally, I feel like it's been so long. Just kidding. You sound like David giving me a hard time. i know, right? um Shane taught on the on the the doctrine of hell and heaven, which was awesome.
Speaker: Not the easiest sermon. And um you know i like I think you mentioned in the sermon, you kind of saved it for yourself because you knew you didn't want to just pass it off onto somebody else. It's not an easy easy discussion. um Definitely one of the harder things to talk about in the Christian faith.
Speaker: I'm going to go ahead and read that the doctrine, so we we're all on the same page. So it's the very last one, even though it's not the last sermon in the series, we he kind of jumped around. So it's the last 10th one.
Speaker: and It's called Response and Eternal Destiny. And this is what the doctrine says. We believe that God commands everyone everywhere to believe the gospel by turning to him in repentance and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe that God will raise the dead bodily and judge the world.
Speaker: assigning the unbeliever to condemnation and eternal conscious punishment and the believer to eternal blessedness and joy with the Lord in the new heaven and new earth to the praise of his glorious grace. Amen.
Speaker: So again, i don't want to just sound redundant. I did, I did like the sermon. it was really good. Again, i think it's difficult and I thought i was surprised. I think, I thought you waited until almost like maybe the last 10 minutes. I feel like it was it was a longer sermon for sure because there was a lot to cover, but I feel like you waited till the last 10 minutes to like really get into it, which was probably needed, I'm guessing, because you had ah you kind of have to set it up.
Speaker: Did you feel that way at all? Like you didn't really get into like the harder topics until the end? Yeah, i I did spend a lot on the repentance aspect. And i think my my point was – I wanted to make sure you know, at least if you understand that we teach that there's a heaven and a hell.
Speaker: I wanted to really get people to understand what it means to not go to hell, you know, like what? Okay, so that's great. It's there, you know, but I wanted to start since that first part of the statement is on repentance.
Speaker: You know, I wanted to really get it clear to people that, hey, you have to make this choice, you know, and I'm going to talk to you about why you need to make this choice, but but it's not something you can just passively listen to. And I, you know, and I really do think that's a pretty big issue in our culture. And there's a lot of people that are pretty passive about their belief.
Speaker: so So anyway, um but yeah, I was a little bummed that I didn't give myself quite enough time. So hopefully, and I think most of your questions here are more focused on the afterlife part. So, um you know, hopefully at least the listeners here will get a little bit more than what they we got on Sunday.
Speaker: Yeah, I did. I did put in some or I think at least one, maybe two about repentance. Yeah, I didn't want to just say that. um But yeah, no, I did. yeah yeah And it was probably good you did it that way. Because if you don't have that setup, and you just go right into it with like starting off with the heavy stuff, it can sometimes turn people off to being able to listen and like, okay, that makes sense. You know, he's backing us up with scripture about repentance. And then he gets into like the reality of hell. And he's not just like going straight for it. So it was so was It was tactful.
Speaker: No good things. Jumping into the first question that I have, what do you think about some of the other views of hell specifically? Things like annihilationism or or the view that hell just doesn't exist and it's like a a state of mind or a state of...
Speaker: you know like mental being, so to speak. um Do you think that hell is temporary and that God's eventually going to redeem everyone? um I know you don't think that, but this is, you know, just for some thought provoking questions. What do you think about those other views?
Speaker: um Well, I mean, the annihilation view is very different than the God's going to redeem everyone. The event that God's going to redeem everyone um would definitely be more of kind of a universalism, or there's a term universal reconciliation that some theologians use.
Speaker: um And I completely deny the universal reconciliation view. um I think that God is very clear There's only one way you get this one life to choose Jesus.
Speaker: You and those who don't choose Jesus um as much as they'll say God doesn't want anyone to perish. Yes, he doesn't. And that's why he gave us the only e the only path in my mind that could ever lead to righteousness because we have no righteousness outside. we There's no way we could ever be righteous outside of Jesus. So he gave us his path.
Speaker: but whether but they're still gonna many are gonna perish that don't choose him so i completely reject that view but the annihilation view um you know it it definitely i actually did a little bit of research on that one this week you know and had i had a lot of time i might have gone it a little bit more but um You know, that one, that view, that an annihilation view, just so everyone understands, is the view that there will be a time of punishment, but that punishment you well will not be eternal. it's
Speaker: ah It leads to perishing, basically. yeah And, you you know, that ah that view actually goes, there's there's some early church fathers in the second century that that believed that and taught that. and And there's actually some good you know, arguments for it.
Speaker: um I wouldn't be opposed to someone who had that view. um You know, I mean, it's one of those ones for me that it's definitely more palatable for me.
Speaker: um But I'm, but I'm not, that's not where I i land. Yeah. um You know, but it does, i mean, there were a couple like said, couple of early church fathers. um Really,
Speaker: You know a lot of the arguments against it would say that the main reason that we don't teach that is because of Augustine um and his, you know, how his teaching rose to the top and then how, and then once at, through that, the Roman church the Catholic Church,
Speaker: kind of came to power and in them coming to power, the idea of eternal punishment and torment was kind of that some people say that they used it as a power trip, right? A way to scare people in india submission.
Speaker: um But I, you know, unfortunately, though, there's just a lot of Bible verses that also kind of make it sound like it it is eternal. So forever um so that's where I land. But mainly because I, I'm definitely one who likes to kind of lean towards saying, you know what, I'm gonna take the Bible as literal as I as I can.
Speaker: Right. Yeah, and I threw that in there not to be like a stumbling block for people, but just to be for people to be aware of. There are different views. I haven't explored that view a whole lot. I know that some people believe that.
Speaker: I'm pretty familiar with that, what do you call it, universal redemption? Universal reconciliation. Reconciliation. um Just because I have some experience like kind of digging into some of like Rob Bell stuff. I don't know if you're familiar with Rob Bell, but yep he wrote a book called Love Wins, and that's essentially the...
Speaker: He doesn't say that hell doesn't exist. um I don't think he goes that far because he's I think he still tries to somewhat be, I mean, he's a really progressive Christian, but I think he tries to fall in with some things of modern Christianity, of mainline things. And he does say that hell exists, but then he says that it's not forever and that the whole point of a loving God is that he's going to redeem everyone and essentially rescue everyone from hell because love wins.
Speaker: and which is a pretty dangerous, I think it's a pretty dangerous theology. I just didn't know. I mean, we don't have to go into that, but I didn't know if you were familiar. No, they definitely don't. They definitely do not teach. So that is a misnomer.
Speaker: but Universalism, at least traditional universalism, does not teach that hell, there is no hell. They do teach it's there, but they that it's more of a place of punishment before God redeems.
Speaker: right um Yeah, and race i mean not a ah Love Wins was definitely a big book. And I don't know for sure. i think Francis Chan wrote... erasing hell as a as a refuting love went. Yeah, got it.
Speaker: So ah check that checks out, which I've never read that book. I'm interested. I'd like to read that. I know you mentioned that in the sermon, the French book, Erasing Hell. ah Moving on just to the next question.
Speaker: kind You kind of touched on that with the Catholic church a little bit. Do you think that there is, or is there any evidence of a quote unquote waiting period before ah but a person goes to heaven or hell.
Speaker: um Is there any scripture that like talks about that? Or is it just, is there like, there's no waiting room, like kind of place before you go to your final destination? um Yeah. um No, I, I don't believe there's a ah waiting period.
Speaker: um The Catholic church, and I don't know how I have not studied much about purgatory, um but they teach ah about purgatory. I do know there's some level of that with purgatory, but I would be speaking out of ignorance if I tried to talk about it.
Speaker: um But outside of that, most mainline Protestants believe purgatory. that you know we we are immediately with um Jesus in in heaven. you know And i a couple of verses, 2 Corinthians 5a talk about, we would rather be away from the body um and at home with the Lord, that's Paul talking. And then in Philippians 1.23, Paul says, I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ.
Speaker: for that is far better saying that, you know, as hard, he'd rather leave this life and be with Christ. So that idea that he's saying that a moment you leave the body, you're with Christ. right um So, you know, I would say most believe that. And that's, that's definitely where I i fall How does that work with a like the like the final judgment?
Speaker: Is it like time's delayed? Like obviously you're dead, so there's no time and you just instantly get a final judgment. How does that work? Yeah, i would say i would say we we immediately go we immediately go to our, whether be heaven or hell, and our soul does.
Speaker: our soul does um But, you know, the the Bible talks are in a final judge, after final judgment, we would have, there'll be a new heaven, a new earth where we actually have bodies.
Speaker: So at that time, we would have the resurrection of bodies. um That's, and and I, there again, I'd have to dig a little bit deeper into that. um It's been a while since I've done enough study where I really formed much thought on that.
Speaker: but But I you know definitely would say that that's ah in line pretty much with most what most would teach. Okay, cool. um Kind of pivoting a little bit in the questions, kind of going back to talking about repentance for a second.
Speaker: You mentioned repentance a lot. Again, like your whole first sermon first first part of the sermon was about that and the importance of it to being saved. Why does a repentance matter to being saved? can you Could you not just accept Jesus and say, i i believe in Jesus?
Speaker: How do you know that you truly repented and are saved? I guess we we talked about that in the past, like how you know you're truly saved. But what's the difference between you know saying you're sorry about something and repentance?
Speaker: why is that why Why is repentance necessary? Yeah. Well, and I think that's why I did spend a lot of time on this and the message because what I was trying to, and I hope I was getting across is it, we kind of think of repenting as like, okay, I have a, you know, oftentimes for men, right. I have a problem with pornography or i have a, you know, problem with anger, whatever.
Speaker: So I'm going to stop, I'm going repent. I'm going to stop that act. And that's repentance. That's kind of how we see repentance. Yeah. But what the Bible is talking about, especially when it talks about like what we needed to to do to be saved, it's saying repent, meaning stop living for yourself and live for Jesus.
Speaker: Stop doing things your way and have the mind to honor Christ. So it's a complete changing of our mindset and our attitudes.
Speaker: And So yes, it's accepting Jesus. And I actually don't even like the word accepting. i i think it's, um I like, I prefer to use the the word surrendering, surrendering to Jesus because accepting Jesus kind of, I get it. It's accepting the free gift, right? We're accepting the free gift of salvation.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah ah see So I'm accepting the free gift of salvation. i feel like it's almost like, you know how, like if you bow down before someone and you put your hand, your hands are out and, and in front of your head kind thing.
Speaker: I almost look at it as I'm taking the posture of surrender to Jesus, but my hands are out. And when I do that, he hands me this free gift of salvation. So, um so and I think we just think of oftentimes as repentance, like, well, i had to, what I have to stop all these sins.
Speaker: Well, you're going to stop those sins eventually through time as you every day take on the mindset and attitude of like, I am going to seek to honor Jesus today. yeah And that to me is what it means to um to give your life to Christ.
Speaker: and you know it's It's not just a conscious belief that of what he did. it's you know I tried to use that marriage analogy. i don't know if that came across very clear in the sermon. But it's surrendering to the other person.
Speaker: um
Speaker: So then like the final part of that question, how like how do you know you've repented? Is it just because you have surrendered to Jesus and you're starting to live life? Because I'm picturing a person who,
Speaker: Maybe they're newer to faith. Maybe they're not. Maybe they've been, you know, Christian, quote unquote Christian for forever. But let's say I struggle with sin and I seem to continue to turn back and turn back to it. And I feel like I haven't conquered it.
Speaker: So then I start feeling like maybe I haven't truly repented and I need to do something else. I know that's a you know, it's a little bit of a can of worms, but what do you tell a person that's like that that, that they're like struggling? They're like, I'm sorry for what I did in theory, because, you know, I don't want to do that. I don't want to look at porn. I don't want to be angry and I don't want to or I don't want to whatever.
Speaker: um But I still find myself falling back into it. Does that mean I haven't repented truly? And I'm not like, I'm not, I haven't turned my life over to Jesus. Does that make sense? Yeah. um Yeah. And i I mean, I have that conversation a lot.
Speaker: And that's where I go back to. And there this is why I tried to use that video of that woman um in the sermon where she sits in the passenger seat. And then she kept trying to take control. And and we're always going to battle that.
Speaker: You know, Paul paul says, i hate I don't do what i want to do and I do what I hate. Everyone is going to battle it. And what always just go back to with anyone when I'm having this conversation is, would you say that your mindset, that your attitude, that your heart is gen is in general, you you are you are seeking to honor Jesus and and you fall, you struggle, you have times of weakness, you have times of hardening, you have times of...
Speaker: um discouragement, you have those times, but, but you, you renew, you know, every day say seeking like this, you know, say, I want, I want to follow Jesus, you know?
Speaker: Um, and if, if you, if I think, you know, in your heart, when you know that you are doing that, you know, yeah no one else can say that, right. No one else can say that about oppression.
Speaker: But it's and it is it's a tough one. It's not something I can't answer for you. i can't answer for anybody. You know, I mean, I can't tell anyone you're saved or you're not saved. All right.
Speaker: You know, ah because only, you know, in your heart what you have. What what your mindset and attitude and heart towards Jesus is. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think I would also tell someone, I've got to be careful here. I don't want to like make this like all works-based. I think I would also tell someone, if you're, like for example, you're struggling with porn, and you and you keep returning to it, and you're struggling, and then you say you're repenting, but you're changing nothing about your situation, you're like, I'm going to keep my browsers you know without any kind of security or you know filtering,
Speaker: And I'm going to lock myself in my room for hours in my office where my computer is facing away from the door. waiting from people you know, like, yeah it's like, okay, you might say you're sorry and repenting after, you know, you've made a mistake and slipped up, but you're not doing anything and you're, it's not affecting the way that you're, like your actions don't show that you actually are caring about changing this. Like you're, it'd be like someone who's like, I'm going to die. I'm going get in shape.
Speaker: And then they go to the store and they just go buy the worst junk food. It's like, well, Are you really that serious about it? And I'm not, I got it. That's why I'm trying to be careful. I'm not trying to say that people who struggle don't take it seriously because I think there are guys out there and women, you know, but take that take, you know, sin very seriously in their life. I'm not trying to make this all about disguise.
Speaker: But, and they've stayed, they've taken steps and they still struggle with something. and I'm not trying to make like a workspace thing, but I do think people do struggle with things and then don't take any steps to change it. And then they're surprised as to why they are still in bondage to a certain sin.
Speaker: Yeah. ah The food thing to me is a really good example because right, like, yeah mean, you know, that's something kind of struggle with, right? So, but I do think you took that's a perfect way of showing yeah the example, right? Because there have been plenty of times I used to in my life have felt like, oh, I feel bad that i ate too much ice cream or I have dessert every night or whatever.
Speaker: But then would just always still made sure there was ice cream in the house and kind of been like, well, but I just won't eat too much. You know, and then change it, you know, so I had to get to a place.
Speaker: so So it's hard to believe me that I actually feel bad about it when I don't make any kind of change. Right. But then when I get to a place where I say, hey no, I don't I feel bad about this. I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker: So I quit doing that. Then every once in while, I still have a moment of weakness and and yeah buy ice cream or whatever. You know, food's a little bit different, right? Because there's nothing wrong with enjoying something. but Yeah, it's not a sin. Yeah, right. But still, you can tell the difference, right? When someone says, oh, I want to lose weight, but they plates of cookies on their table every week.
Speaker: It's like, well, you know, you're you're really not – I don't know what to tell you. You have not changed your mindset. and you really Yes. Yeah, you got to change that relationship. It's not a perfect analogy. It does break down. But, yeah, it it goes to show just there's a difference between repentance and turning.
Speaker: And I would say, too, like you and I love what you how you worded that just a second ago with the question of like – it's totally It's a total change. It's a total U-turn. It's not trying to sin a little less yes and hoping that your life gets better. Because I think some people can sum up Christianity into that. Almost like it's like kind of like modern thought, like stoicism or like just good teachings. And it's like you just take out enough bad stuff out of your life and add enough good stuff in. And it just makes you better person. And then you're a better person. So that's a good thing. It's like that's not...
Speaker: that's not really what Christianity is. It's not about making you a better person. It's about totally surrendering your life to Jesus. It's a flip flop of everything. It's not adding sprinkle a little bit of Jesus in to make your life a little better.
Speaker: Yep. Cool. um Really quick, just kind of a, kind of like a smaller question. I didn't know if you had any thoughts is all punishment. We're going back to hell now is all punishment and hell the same.
Speaker: um Are there different varying levels of punishment?
Speaker: So
Speaker: the only thing I would really have to go off on that when I go back to scripture, and this is without doing a specific study on that topic, is there does seem to be reward in heaven.
Speaker: You know, um there is language that talks about that. Now that could be metaphorical at some level, i you know, but but theyre the Bible does seem to talk about reward in heaven.
Speaker: that may vary at some level. um And so with hell, it might make sense that there is, but I can't i can't think of a scripture that talks about a variance of of punishment. And I guess my thing is to me, i do lean in more on the idea of that hell changes is just is total separation from God.
Speaker: And, and that the torment part of that is, is somewhat metaphorical as far as the physical things that we talk, we talk about when we talk about hell's flames and all that. I, I kind of lean towards that, that that is language to help us just understand how dreadful it would be to be completely in total separation from all that is good.
Speaker: Um, and so if that's the case, once you're totally separated from God, there's no more total separated. You could be, um, so you either, yeah you either are, you aren't. That's interesting.
Speaker: Interesting thought. Um, I Googled this and did a little bit and and you're right. There's some weird verses that people try to use a little bit, but it's not, it doesn't seem, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't like bring it to like a personal sense of like this, is you're going to experience worse. Um,
Speaker: um the The one verse that it mentioned when I did Google this and was kind of like looking through it was in Matthew 11. He's like, he's talking, he's kind of denouncing these cities that have not really done anything that miracles. So he says, you woe to you, Chorazin, which is like a, like a region.
Speaker: Woe to you, Bethsaida, for if the mighty works, done in you had been done entire in Tyre and Sidon, which were like really pagan cities. They would have repented a long ago in southlo and exactly yeah sackcloth and ashes.
Speaker: Excuse me. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And then he goes on. But even then, it's it's saying the day of judgment. So I don't know if that means the judgment will be less. Again, like you said, hell is a separation of God and all things that are good. So I don't know how that reconciles with like a worse punishment or lighter punishment. don't know.
Speaker: it's That's interesting. But yeah, that's when I Googled it and it totally lined up with what you said. It's like, I can't find enough evidence to point to that. I think people would like to say that though. Like, well, that person was just, they weren't Hitler. They weren't that bad.
Speaker: But... I guess that does kind of come into the question, is all sin the same? Because it all separates you from the God or there different sins that are quote unquote worse? what do you that's That's not on the list of questions. What do you think about that?
Speaker: I think in the eyes of God, all all sin is the same. like it all It's all missing the mark. The word sin just simply means to miss the mark. yeah And, you know, if you only get the trophy for hitting the mark, ah not, you know, not to say it like it's a trophy, but, you know, if you only get a trophy for missing the mark, every time you miss the mark, you miss the mark, you know? So yeah um I think in the eyes of God, that's the case. Now, does that mean they don't have greater consequences here on earth?
Speaker: Absolutely. Right. You, you telling a little white lie here on earth is probably not going to have nearly the kind of consequence of you committing fraud.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, so... There's differences in the consequences here. no i I think I would agree with that. It is hard, though. You know, again, because I think you've want to you want to think in your head that, like, certain, like, her like really heinous, like, child murder or something that is... Obviously, it's way worse in our minds than, yeah, like, telling a white lie.
Speaker: But, like you said, missing the mark, like, if it's it's an impossible... If you're if you're trying to get to This is not the greatest analogy, but if you're trying to get to Jesus across a cliff, you could take, this ist this is a bad analogy, but basically nothing that you can, there's nothing that you can do to get across and sin is you trying to do things on your own. So even the worst thing that you could possibly do, it doesn't matter. Like you're just never getting across, never getting across that cliff without Jesus. well and Yeah. and And once again, it's just that idea that what separates us from God?
Speaker: yeah Our sin at all. Anytime. so we're all sinners. So we're all separate from God. The only thing to get you there is is accepting Jesus. So. So, yeah, it does. I mean, there. So I go just go back to if if not accepting Christ, if not are not giving your life to Christ.
Speaker: means you're going separated from God, then you're goingnna be separated from God. And I, you know, so, so I, I just don't, I don't know how to make that better. Like, I just don't see how God's making it better. If you're, if you're not, it's that, Hey, you chose it.
Speaker: That is what, what it is. So, yeah. you know and you real quick on the annihilation view i will just say on the annihilation view that's one thing you know that why those with the annihilation view kind of will say well that's the hell would just be this torment while you're perishing and the flames are they even kind of talk about many of people with annihilation view would say the flames are literal and that you know flames never nothing lasts in flames is what they would say is that it's actually meant to destroy and so yeah yeah so we die and that you know and i people with annihilation view talk about how eternal life is a gift we get when we give our life to christ if we don't give our life to christ and we don't get the gift of eternal life we just we get the the punishment of death
Speaker: Got it. The punishment of of death and judgment. Okay. Yeah. Things to wrestle with. um So moving on, what would you tell someone who's struggling with the doctrine of hell?
Speaker: Where would they... Where would they turn to scripture for clarity? I know you mentioned those books, but I can i can anticipate, and I know that this is the case for a lot of people, they're all on board with almost all these things about Christianity. like It's very easy to understand. We're not easy to understand, but it's very easy to like, okay, yeah, I can see so a lot of these things.
Speaker: um It's pretty reasonable to a certain degree. And then you get to certain more harder doctrines, and I think hell being one of those, and it starts to really turn people off to um Christianity or they'll accept most Christianity and just reject this and try to live this like kind of weird, like sitting on the fence.
Speaker: What do you tell someone who's struggling with that? And is, where do they go in scripture? Where's the spot for them to go and got and get some more clarity? Well, the first passage I go to, I think Paul pretty clearly lays it out.
Speaker: 2 Thessalonians 1, 5-10, says, right? Yeah. is evidence of the righteous judgment of god that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of god for which you are also suffering so he's writing the christians right Mm-hmm.
Speaker: just to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us when the lord jesus is revealed to heaven with the mighty angels inamming fire inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Speaker: They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. When he comes on that day to be glorified in the saints and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you is believed.
Speaker: So, I mean, Paul pretty clearly lays out there's going to be a day of judgment. Those are those that believe in Jesus are going to be in his presence. Others are going to suffer eternal judgment.
Speaker: um eternal Actually, he says eternal um destruction. that this There again, this verse is often used by the annihilates because they could say, well, they're they they're destroyed forever. That's it. you know yeah um There's no turning back, um which would also deny the universalist view.
Speaker: but um So that's a key one for me. But then also, I mean, Jesus talks about it multiple places. you know Jesus talks about hell. So um you know Those would be some of the key verses and passages. And you know like said, you can do some some theological gymnastics and try to yeah get away from them.
Speaker: But I don't see how um with some of these passages you can do that. Yeah, no, I would agree. I think I would tell someone, and and I've told people this before, like I talked to our summer staff this summer up at Big Canyon about this, because we went through just some different difficult doctrines.
Speaker: And i was telling them, like, if you if you get to a point with a certain thing and you get that like internal twisting, like, just don't like that. I don't like that at all. um i was I was trying to kind of say...
Speaker: it's okay to struggle with things. And I think a lot of Christians think that it's not. And I think you should always be able to struggle with things, but I think it should push you further into scripture and further into like curiosity and trying to figure it out and ultimately trusting rather than pull you away. Cause I think a lot of people, when they get to things that are hard, they just, they draw. And then I think that's where you get a lot of that like deconstructionism type of, uh,
Speaker: you know, theology where people are like, well, I don't like that. So I'm to pulling all these things. I don't like out of my faith until I get down to this point where I can agree with everything and then I'm okay with it. And do you, you, have you had any experience with someone that that's, that's done that before? Have you ever felt like doing that before where it's like, this is so hard to deal with in my mind? Like, I just don't like this enough where I'm just going try to get rid of it.
Speaker: Or does it make, or do you just naturally want to go more into scripture? talk You want to talk about for a second? Yeah. I've dealt with a lot of people that do that. Um, over the years, many, many people.
Speaker: Um, but my, myself, I've definitely been in that period where I've let, I've had multiple periods where I've let doubt and things I wrestle with and things that even really bothered me. I've let them move me away from faith and in the past.
Speaker: Um, and i I don't remember exactly what the, where the point was. want to say it was about 12 years ago that I kind of made ah decision that I, I know, i believe the Bible enough that When I have those points, when I have those wrestle wrestling things, when I struggle, I'm going to move more towards scripture. I'm going to, and yeah honestly, that's okay. the One of the reasons I don't take an annihilist view is like is that I said, because I try to lean towards more
Speaker: I know my propensity is to say, i don't like that. So I'm going to kind of make it easier for me. um And so I kind of go you know what? I trust Jesus and I'm going to trust that this this is literal and meant to be taken that way until somebody proved proves to me otherwise, not just because I don't like it.
Speaker: Um, you know, um, no, general there are some things I'm not on that. There are some areas I don't, I don't lean that way. I know that I'm not as literal as, as many people would be, but when the one, when I'm really wrestling with it, when it, when it makes my faith struggle, I lean more that way.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's good. And yeah, I was just going to say that's a great perspective to have. And I think it does take some time and maturity and trust. Like if you're just coming into Christianity and you don't really trust the Bible and you haven't really looked into why you can trust it, why it's trustworthy, why it's the word of God, why it's truth.
Speaker: It's a little harder to try to say, yeah, I'm going to line up it with everything on it because... you it's not your baseline. It's almost like, I think this might've been you, or maybe it was Mike Smith that was talking to me about this a long time ago, but about just when you're trying to argue with someone from a different religion, but we were just using the example of just our just our culture around us in Utah, just the Latter-day Saints.
Speaker: if you If you go at it with them and you're trying to argue with someone on the Bible and they don't see the Bible as that authority, you're you're going to run into a brick wall because you might be saying, well, see, the Bible says this, the Bible says this. And they they might be saying, well, the prophet said this though, and they have a different revelation. So it doesn't, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker: um Same thing with the person that doesn't trust the Bible. It's like, well, the Bible says that there's hell, but I don't, do I even trust what the Bible says? They might not line up with that. So when you get to that spot where you're like, the Bible is my authority and I submit to God's word,
Speaker: it's like you you don't have a you really don't have an Yeah, that's a great that's a great way of saying it andt If you're not going to choose to accept the Bible as the authority of God, then then you're like you can end up getting change all it. Just finally, last question.
Speaker: ah How does this this eternal mindset, this reality of heaven and hell, how does it impact our daily life? It's really easy to get like lost in the clouds, I think, just talking about all the yeah theoreticals and you know, all the what ifs, but in reality, in our day to day life, how does, how does an eternal reality that's, that's coming affect us? And how should it affect us? Should it drive us to certain behaviors?
Speaker: What's what's the significance of that? um I don't think it originated here, but the first time I heard the statement was in a 90s Christian pop song that said, what if we lived as if hell actually exists?
Speaker: Or it's heaven. What if we lived as if heaven actually exists? um And i always it's always stuck in my head – as
Speaker: just kind of more what if we lived as if eternity in general actually exists and you know i think the more we can line up with remembering that and and really owning this eternal consequences and aspect of life the more it really should affect our decisions. I know it does mine.
Speaker: Like when I'm suffering for, you know, but and Paul talks about, I don't, I don't have a call verse right now, but, um, you know, when I'm suffering and struggling with something or going through something, or I feel unjustly treated. i'm reminded oftentimes like, you know what, this is, it's just for this time.
Speaker: And this is nothing compared to, compared to what I have awaiting for me. And, um and I, I need to just suck, kind of suck it up. And, and also it keeps me from being,
Speaker: down and sad and you know so it kind of changes my mindset and even um but then also the idea that there are eternal consequences for those that don't know Jesus I mean you know me and we I've even talked about it in here I mean i I always am going to have the mindset of a pastor is like look I and we're we're going to lean a little bit more even evangelical.
Speaker: Because yeah, do I want just people to grow? yeah absolutely. but But I kind of feel like they got to own it themselves. they're yeah At some level, they've got to start just saying, I'm going to own my faith.
Speaker: And if they don't do that, then And that's up to them. but But as far as the world that's lost, we've got to share the good news with them. We've got to share the gospel, and we've got to try to you know reach them as in any way that we can.
Speaker: And it sounds like you had a power problem and cut out.
Speaker: Well, hey, it sounds like Danny had a power problem and cut out at the end. And that was our last question. So um I am going to end it here. And hopefully ah that will be a good. And he'll be able to get this online.
Speaker: So ah hopefully you enjoyed this discussion. And we will see you or hear speak with you next week.
