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Feral Femmes: This Episode Does Not Pass the Bechdel Test
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HAPPY FRIDAY!!!!! In this chaotic episode, we FINALLY talk about the women in Heated Rivalry and how much we adore them while not passing the Bechdel Test. We are also interrupted by the Met Gala because we all forgot it was happening when we scheduled recording, but please enjoy our commentary in real time as it unfolds. We're joined by friends of the pod Haley and Rogue as well!!! Take this opportunity to remember to decenter men <3 Thanks for listening!
References & Citations:
None of us are straight, some of us are not women (literally, please check our socials)
Canada's History of Indigenous Genocide
The problem with the glorifying strength in oppressed women
Follow us on our socials!
Twitter: @srspod
Threads & Instagram: @sincerookieseasonpod
Email: srspod@protonmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Focus
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Since Rookie Season. Well, the summer before. a heated rivalry fan companion podcast where your hosts, Amanda, Lau, and Lauren, break down the episodes from the Creative Canada television series, the Game Changers novels, and various media surrounding this fan phenomenon.
00:00:15
Speaker
The day has finally finally arrived, and we're here to talk about our beloved, the women of heated rivalry. Stay tuned.
Guest Introductions and Initial Reactions
00:00:32
Speaker
Hi, welcome back. I hope you really enjoyed our last episode on neurodivergence. This week, we are talking about feminism and the women in heated rivalry. We have two friends of the pod here. And um also, as we're recording this, it is...
00:00:49
Speaker
Met Gala nights. We have just seen Hudson get into his sprinter van with his makeup and his hair. And so you will probably maybe get a live reaction. Maybe Amanda will clip it out and we can post it on socials of our live reaction from the Met Gala. Anyways.
00:01:05
Speaker
I'm going to toss it over to our lovely guests. They're going introduce themselves like we always ask them to. We're going to ask them some questions and then we're going get into the the the argument the argument. Can you tell I was arguing with too many people on threads this weekend? No. Lauren, this is a safe, nice space. No one's going to attack you here.
00:01:28
Speaker
Well, somebody did tell me that on this weekend that im that Critique is doing heavy lifting and I'm just a hater. And I would like everyone to know that if you didn't know by now, I am just a hater.
00:01:39
Speaker
But I'm also a hater with a PhD, so that's critique.
Adapting Books to TV: A Closer Look
00:01:42
Speaker
So anyways, tossing it over to our lovely guests this week, Hayley and Rogue. Whoever wants to go first, go first. Introduce yourself.
00:01:51
Speaker
Hi, hi everyone. My name is Hayley. I use she, her pronouns and I got into heated rivalry. I am first and foremost a romance girly. love the romance genre. So that's kind of how I'm coming to this conversation as well. But i was told about Heated Rivalry by an internet friend, Kaylee, and ended up audiobooking the first Just Heated Rivalry because I couldn't get a copy fast enough. I've since read it, actually, with my eyeballs as well. And people are right about...
00:02:25
Speaker
about the narrators making some choices as narrators are wont to do but I got into heated rivalry from my internet friend Kaylee how do you choose a favorite woman in the heated rivalry universe I have to pick one i no I think that's honestly quite rude because they're all beautiful and wonderful and I think picking a favorite woman is sexist true so whoever wrote that note no I'm just kidding
00:02:51
Speaker
Estas pero de un pelion. ah You tell them. And you know what exactly, Lau? No, Haley, if you don't if you don't have a favorite one, you don't have to pick a favorite one. You know, I think i think my favorite right now is Svetlana.
00:03:08
Speaker
Very excited. Very excited to talk about Svetlana. Amen. Love Svetlana. We'll get into it. But love show Svetlana. Honestly forgot that book Svetlana was so different. Like show Svetlana is just Svetlana. Like that's, that's it. And something that I think is like the reason that I think heated rivalry is so addictive, why it's been so pervasive, why it's touched so many people is like going back to being a romance genre girly. Like we get so few characters. adaptations of romance media that is produced with love and care and appreciation and respect for the genre and for the women and marginalized people who are creating the genre and who are reading the genre and so this was an adaptation that you can just feel the respect for like the source material the respect for the genre as a whole and the people who consume the genre by the people who were
00:04:06
Speaker
who are making it you can see the oh my god Connor took the jacket off thank god I was waiting for you to finish your thought and you know and you know what I just saw it i just saw it it ah the like this feels like is this what Bush felt like during nine eleven um
00:04:35
Speaker
Is Bucks in the second tower?
00:04:39
Speaker
he's the Kuntagod, obviously. Oh um my god. His hair, the arms. fall ah it's It's...
00:04:55
Speaker
Okay, coming back to my thought because we were just interrupted by... by the 4K Connor photos from the Met Gala. Basically, I think that this, like, there's just so much care that's put into the making of the show. You can tell that everybody who worked on it has so much genuine love and respect for the romance genre and fans of the romance genre. So that is something that really, really bleeds through on top of all of the amazing, amazing talent from everybody involved that I think is really part of what what has pushed Heated Rivalry
00:05:29
Speaker
into the
Favorite Characters and Community Dynamics
00:05:30
Speaker
stratosphere. Thank you so much for introducing yourself, Hayley. Notably to our listeners, this is not my Hayley, but this is a great, as great Hayley. Like, yes as amazing. we're We're a pretty great group of people, people with with this name. And you know what? do That's so real. Are you, what what is your star sign? What is your sun sign?
00:05:48
Speaker
I'm a Leo. Ooh! Okay, wait, are you like Cusp? Are you like Leo-Virgo Cusp? No, Lauren has opinions on Leos. I have opinions. I don't know what end of the Leo spectrum is the Virgo Cusp. I really don't know a ton about astrology. Who is your Virgo?
00:06:06
Speaker
When is your birthday? August 21st. We can cut this. oh you know Okay. So you're like Virgo cusp. You're like first to the end. Because my best friend Haley is a Virgo. She's August 29th. So we'll vibe. We'll vibe. We'll get together. We'll get, we'll, we'll do a little key. We'll do a little key. Love it. Now we're going to toss it over to our other guest, our other friend of the pod, Rogue.
00:06:27
Speaker
Hi, Rogue. How are you? Hello! I'm Rogue. I'm 26. I go by she, her. I've been in fandom spaces for like a long time. to only be 26, I've been in fandom spaces since I was 12 when I first made a fanfic.net account when I really wasn't supposed to.
00:06:47
Speaker
stayed very late reading fan fiction that my mother would have a heart attack about. um But yeah, yeah, I've been around for a while. I first got into the heated rivalry. Honestly, ah I wasn't trying to get into heated rivalry.
00:07:01
Speaker
um at first, I was very hesitant about it. And then my friend Bella introduced it to me because she had read the book prior to the show coming out. And I really didn't want to get into it because I thought it was going to be another like, tragic love story and other like bury your gaze concept and I was really tired of that because we have had so much of that happen but she reassured me that there was a lot more to the story that they have like that the dynamic between Shane and Ilya was a lot more than just tragedy and that they had a lot more depth, a lot more yearning into it. So I eventually gave shot when the first two episodes came out and then I was locked in.
00:07:37
Speaker
um And then i ordered the book and then I had to wait until the show was basically over to be able to read the book because it was sold out everywhere. so I had to wait a really long time to actually be able to compare the book to the show and see what changes they made but even after going back after like watching the full show and then reading the book I was still so in love with the characters like I was still so locked into the world and i just I kept wanting to know more and then the long gang came out and I was like oh There's more. Okay. i don't um So yeah, I really like it now, now that I actually gave it a shot, now that I actually committed to it. Favorite Women in the Heated Rivalry universe. It's a tie for me because I really do love Svetlana, but specifically show Svetlana.
00:08:26
Speaker
Book Svetlana, I have complicated feelings about. And then Yuna Hollander as well. I love Yuna. I love her so much. i have well We'll get into that when we when we talk about her, but I i love her her her character in both the show and the book for different reasons.
00:08:43
Speaker
But yeah, if i had if I have to pick between women, which got into my head, yes, Vatana and Yuna. I love them both, honestly. Really? And oh do why do I think the show is addictive? um Or do I find it addictive? um I think I think the show is, in my opinion, more addictive than the book. And I might be biased by saying that because I read I mean, because I read the book after I watched the show.
00:09:12
Speaker
But after having done that process backwards, I do think that the show is more addictive in the way that it gives us a lot more access to both of their point of views. Because I will say, I do think Hedo Rappery is more of a Shane book. And then along game, we get a lot more Ilya, in my opinion. And I do think the show balances out both of their perspectives in a really good way in very specific scenes.
00:09:35
Speaker
um Especially with seeing Ilya go to Russia and having those conversations with him and his dad and the whole scene of him under the bridge talking to Shane and his in his native tongue. That whole perspective really, it helped me understand Ilya a lot better than it did in the book.
00:09:52
Speaker
Not to say that the book was bad at that, but I think the show did a better job of it for me as a viewer. So I think in that way, it's more addictive. But in generally, I think Kedar Rivalry is addictive because it's it's very honest with itself. Like it doesn't shy away from a lot of topics. There's no like cure all. There's no fix all for like in order to get the happi happily ever after, you have to work toward it.
00:10:14
Speaker
And they put in the hard work, they put in the steps and they make a lot of mistakes. But I think it's addictive in the way that, that, you know, they don't shy away from it, you know, like, you're just sort of along for the ride with them for however embarrassing it gets.
00:10:29
Speaker
so yeah No, we we love that. We love that. Thank you so much for your answers. I love that you've also kind of like, I love that all of our guests are like,
00:10:40
Speaker
Every time we like ask them like how did they get into heated rivalry, everybody has a very different story. like Nobody's journey is the same. like Yes, Kaylee brought a lot of people together because... like You know. It happens when you're in a group chat with a bunch of people and there's queer romance show that you need to watch, you need to read.
00:11:03
Speaker
Right, exactly. But like even like some of our guests have been like, like oh, I knew about it like way before it like was going to come out, but then I wasn't really like into it. Or I was like reading the books like right before it happened. Or like you know all of this stuff. So i think it's I think it's just all really interesting to see how we like come to this fandom, even though it is literally a heaping pile of steaming garbage 98% of the time. Sometimes. i got so I got so pissed off this weekend from both racist people and then just people being mean to me on the internet that I was like, I couldn't even read the fanfiction. Like, that's how upset I was. Oh, no. I know. That's bad. bad.
00:11:42
Speaker
We're that TikTok audio right now of that dancing like a ballerina and then that's me and my happy little, like, fan art, fanfiction. Like, I don't have any problems on my algorithm and then you're the other side of the audio where it's like...
00:11:56
Speaker
fighting for fightingly bro but ever ever since you you brought up that that tick tock in our book club every single time i think about that tick tock i think of you doing it well and i guess the word time is it's spinning it's spinning like a ballerina and not dancing but i always think it's dancing like a ballerina bell yeah And that's me on Twitter of all places. Anyway. yeah You're on a very good site on Twitter then. Yes, I know. i don't know. It's all like hockey stuff and then it's like heated rivalry stuff and Percy Jackson stuff and like whatever else is happening currently. It's it's awesome.
00:12:32
Speaker
Twitter being the Boundaryna portion of that sound is... No, literally. Like, what the hell? I love that episode. that I love that love that season of my life.
00:12:46
Speaker
Like two years ago. I don't think I've been on Twitter in like two years at this point. So no, you don't want to be back. No, I don't. I'm literally, you could not pay me to be on that website. And I don't blame you. Maybe you could, but... ah ah Like, maybe, maybe you could. I'm also spitting like a ballerina because I have been on the quest to reduce my screen time. And I'm at this point at one hour and 19 minutes per day on my phone. And I'm really proud. So every time Lauren is like, Fred, I'm being attacked. I'll like, just send it to me because I'm not scrolling. I'm just not going to scroll.
00:13:24
Speaker
No, and it's crazy because I was also like, I'm going to take a break from social media this year. and I'm going to put an hour limit on all of my social media. And on Saturday, I was like out with my friend and I kept being like, extend 15 minutes, extend 15 minutes, extend 15 minutes. And then like typing furiously. like No, it's bad. My therapist is going to yell at me this week. It's fine.
00:13:43
Speaker
Anyway, speaking of therapists, we're now going to turn to all the emotional labor that these women do for these men in this TV show. Because you know they do. You know they do. Are we going to talk about our favorite women?
00:13:56
Speaker
um No, Amanda. I don't care about your favorite woman. Homophobic. Homophobic.
00:14:03
Speaker
Why is it Svetlana? Because that's my favorite woman. Actually. we all This is a fan club for Svetlana. Old lady. Also, Ksenia. Ksenia? Yes. Make my line.
00:14:14
Speaker
Once again. going to do it in every episode until she does. No, Amanda, what is who is your favorite heated rivalry? What is a woman? What? They're objects, actually. I have to steal Rogue's answer. Unfortunately, it is between Svetlana, Svetlana, and Yuna. I think that they are so top for me. like They are just really up there in how smart they are and how, like, yes, they support the men, but I feel like they have depth in and of themselves. Like they are characters outside of the men and have sides to them with that, that I really appreciate. And I feel like they're just so strong. Like I know Elena is really strong in her character, just the way that she is like a force of nature, but that puts her at close third. But yeah, I would have to put Svetlana and Yuna at the top. Thank you for asking. Lau? Lau, what about you?
00:15:04
Speaker
I think my favorite woman of Hitted Rivalry is the combination of Rose and Svetlana. I'm to shift them until I die. I'm going to keep drawing them. I'm just going to keep dreaming about them until we get what we want.
00:15:20
Speaker
So yeah. I also love Rose, Lana. Thank you, Halis. Yeah. I love the headcanon that, because in the book, Elena moves to LA at the end of the skip book. And that's where she meets Rose, where Rose is acting. And they like somehow run into each other at some like whatever uppity party fancy event. And then it almost happens like how Shane and Rose happened, except it's not Shane.
00:15:43
Speaker
I think that would go really well. And you know what? I agree with that. We need more lesbian representation in this book. But you know what? I'm not asking Rachel Reed to do anything because she's going fuck it up. Clearly. As we've seen.
00:15:54
Speaker
Yeah. You want more lesbian representation with actual lesbians and not with two gay men that are acting like like lesbians, right? That's what you meant. Yeah. But also two gay men like acting like lesbians. We need more representation of that too because I don't think that happens very often.
00:16:10
Speaker
And they're more like me than they think they are. you know You know? Actually, very funny story. I'm going to go on on tangent. This weekend, I had a house sale at my house. And I had this guy who's an artist, who's one of my neighbors, come over to my house. And he was in my house for all of five minutes. And he came back. And he gave me two drawings that fit perfectly into my apartment.
00:16:30
Speaker
Whoa. And I was like, you looked at my space for all of 30 seconds, maybe. And then you came back. And you gave me these. And you know what? Gay men are like gay women or gay non-binary people.
00:16:43
Speaker
I told someone i love Chicago today and they were a little like confused by it. And this is exactly what I mean. I love Chicago. What the hell? What the hell?
Women’s Roles and Impact
00:16:50
Speaker
It was amazing. Okay. So we all said our favorite. You know what? Shout out to the casting to making, having them all be women of color.
00:16:56
Speaker
We love that. And actually, you know what? I haven't seen a lot of hate directed towards the women of color in this fandom, which is crazy because like, if you think about like, I don't know if you guys were ever involved in the flash,
00:17:08
Speaker
but like iris got so much shit for being blacked like having a black actress oh yeah low rose is white no i am sorry i did i do be forgetting about her as one of my favorite she's like from michigan one of the one michigan she's from michigan yeah and steves thank yes that's my all nearly all of the women in the show are people of color except for Rose and that's great we love that on casting I also have not seen like a ton of hate in the fandom against like women of color which is you know very opposite to what is normal in fandoms with women of color so that's that's great but I think we're gonna kind of I think like most of this conversation is going to like center around like it breaking down each of the women in the show and kind of like our favorite things that we love to say about that, or their favorite things that they say, like how they kind of fit into these stories.
00:18:06
Speaker
But we do want to point out that unfortunately this show does fail the Bechdel test. have Lau, do you want to explain what the Bechtel test is? Yeah, if you if you have listened to our previous episodes, we discover live that it failed about the Bechtel test.
00:18:22
Speaker
Do you know the origins? Because I don't remember the name of the person. Yes, it's from Alison Bechtel, who wrote Fun Home. Yes. Originally, when we brought this up on the pod, I was like, Lau, you're wrong. It's not from Alison Bechtel. And Lau was like, no, I think I'm right. And I was like, no, you're wrong. And then I looked it up and I was wrong.
00:18:41
Speaker
Yay! So it is, yes, it is literally from Alison Bestel who wrote Fun Home. Keep going, Lau. Keep talking. So basically what it means, is what you need for something to pass this test. is that you need to have at least two women talking to each other about something that is not a man. They also have to be named. yeah And they have to be named, thank you, Hayley. So they cannot be just like extras in the background talking about coffee.
00:19:09
Speaker
They need to be like full-fledged characters with a name. And unfortunately, every single time we see a woman in this show, they're talking to a man. I think the only time where we see two of these women together in a scene is Maria and Elena, and they're both talking to to Kip and Sean. So it's not really, they're like, they're never talking to each other, and that time they're talking about Scott. So again, it fails the best-shell test. And it's really weird that I like something that fails it. So this is an anomaly in my life. I believe Alison Bechtel also said that like she created the test in one of her comics pre-Fun Home. I yes forget the name of it.
00:19:57
Speaker
And she she's I believe said that she never intended for this to be the like end all be all test. For if a piece of media is feminist at its core or is like XYZ at its core, it is like a measure of that. A good measure. you have women who are who are able to engage in a conversation that's not not about a man. But I don't think that things that don't pass the test, I don't think that means that they are necessarily bad or wrong or invalid. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think like like inherently, Heated Rivalry is like some kind of progressive television show because it's showing like two men in love in a place that is... stringently heterosexual and against like any kind of pride or gay events in any shape or form or athletes being out and so I think it inherently is progressive but it's not like feminist ethics are core to its like to its like structure I would say And I mean, like women and like feminism as like women as like tools for plot narratives comes across in so many different ways. Like I do a lot of research in comics. And one of the things that we always talk about is the women in refrigerators trope, which is literally when women are quote unquote fridged or like killed or murdered or raped or whatever in order to be plot development for men. huh.
00:21:27
Speaker
and so that is or like plot development emotional development something along those lines for game of thrones yeah literally like and there's so much media anything marvel anything marvel setting setting the hero off on his journey of revenge or yes yeah literally when i was about to call her natasha beddingfield Is that the the it's unwritten? Yeah. know the compromise When Natasha Robinoff gets just like fucking chucked into a crater order to move the plunge.
00:22:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, because you have to get rid of the thing you love the most. And you know what? i don't know this reference. Okay, well, clearly you did not watch Avengers Endgame. No. No.
00:22:17
Speaker
No, I would love to be in your Me neither. I'm just now getting that that was an Avengers Endgame reference. I'm not going to love that. It's media episode.
00:22:31
Speaker
How did I just walk into the lake? Ro, were you on the same place as me? I understand. Listen, I was reading Steve Bucky fan fiction when Endgame came out. like i was i i was My home was in the AO3, the beginnings of that for the Marvel fandom where everyone lived in this in the Avengers Tower together. Yes. Oh! Listen guys, I love that for y'all.
00:23:00
Speaker
Once again we're failing the bestel test. yeah yeah one as a south no As a South American person, I refuse to watch anything with Captain America on it.
00:23:12
Speaker
So oh that's basically why i have never watched the Avengers. The only Marvel stuff I watch is Superman. Or not Superman. Hello? Where did that come from? Spider-Man. I was like, that's that's not... That's the opposite. Famously, there's a rivalry there.
00:23:31
Speaker
i Almost like the one that's in this this tale, this this crazy this crazy little moment. All right. Do we have anything that we want our listeners to keep in mind as we continue to talk about women and feminism and their roles in this series? Anyone can go.
00:23:49
Speaker
Just that we love women. I think everyone here can agree, right? Yes. Women us can do no wrong. I support women's rights and their wrongs. Yes. And something I i noticed earlier when some y'all were talking was that like here today we were all raised as women, I assume. So like, I feel like that's just like a perspective I'm going to bring is like, I don't identify as a woman now, but like previously I was raised as a woman. And I think that that's relevant and interesting. No, that's really true.
00:24:16
Speaker
Also, yeah. Gay women, totally different than straight women. Real. yeah Just for the record, Lauren, Amanda, and Laura are not straight.
00:24:27
Speaker
we not We are not straight. Please, get that right. Thank you. Amanda and Lauren are not women. Thank you. If anyone says that on the internet, i will. I don't think the people on the internet who are fighting with me are listening to our podcast because they clearly are having some kind of like higher order functioning that doesn't allow them to listen to our podcast.
00:24:49
Speaker
But it's just making me irrationally angry. It's just making me irrationally angry too. And this is why I had to get off the internet this weekend. And now here I am sitting on threads waiting for the Connor or for the Hudson photos to drop. Like, I need it biblically.
00:25:02
Speaker
Biblically! Anyways. Anyways. Oh, also women are- do we already say they're not a monolith? Yeah. Women are not a monolith. Trans women are women. Mm-hmm. Trans women are women. Women are allowed to make mistakes.
00:25:14
Speaker
Yes. are not perfect. Indeed. Except for Megan Thee Stallion. Megan Thee Stallion could do no wrong. Sure. And if Megan Thee Stallion wants somebody who won't cheat on her, bang my line. I'm putting myself out there. You know who wouldn't cheat on Megan Thee Stallion? Me. So true. would wake up grateful every day to be with Megan the Stallion. Are you kidding?
00:25:30
Speaker
Shifting away from the beauty of Megan Thee Stallion to now the beauty of our heated rivalry women. I'm sorry this podcast is insane this week, but Amanda, have fun. and What we're going to do is we're going to go woman by woman.
00:25:45
Speaker
from this series and we're gonna talk about them and we're gonna focus on them because we have been waiting for this day for months to be able to talk about these wonderful, wonderful women. So the first one that we have is Maria and i i didn't say that she was my favorite but I do enjoy her a lot. Like her girl, girl. I just love her.
00:26:12
Speaker
I love her. I wish her all the best. No, literally. i want a smoothie made by her anytime. Yeah. Anytime. Anytime. Like, I love that, like, she was, like, so unexpected as a character, but she's, like, I mean, obviously one of the people I quote the most from, like, this the the series. And I use her gif all of the time. Like, it's, like, one of my favorite gifs, or it's just, like, girl. It's a perfect reaction gif. but I literally, I think I used in our Discord earlier today.
00:26:43
Speaker
And I really need to shout out to Bianca Nogara, who's the actress that plays Maria. Because she was like, she has so little screen time.
00:26:55
Speaker
Very short lines. And still, she delivers. ever like There is no way that I forget her character. has very inflectious energy, and I love that about her.
00:27:07
Speaker
like she does not waste the time. Yeah, and I feel like she is like so aware of Kip, but and it is just so like like, when she sees Scott come into the shop and she just like lets him be like, okay, here's your mans. like I feel like she's so like girl's girl, low-key about it. Arguably, could be like you could make the argument that the entirety of the series happens because of Maria when yeah she encourages Kip to flirt with Scott.
00:27:31
Speaker
Yes! I was go to say her impact I feel like is felt in that And like the excitement that I felt when I opened up Common Goal and saw more Maria like cannot be understated or overstated. Cannot be understated. Yes. Yes.
00:27:47
Speaker
that's i I loved her in the... I love her in that one. like Just seeing more into that life and like and how she swapped shops and like went to, i think, Starbucks maybe or something. But then also, like is low-key going for Lucas, I think? Right, Lucas Haas? Which, looking up boy i think that boy is queer. i think whatever. But yeah, she's so fun.
00:28:07
Speaker
I love her. No, I... First of all, Lucas needs to be gay because if he's not gay, then Rachel Reed is wrong. I mean, I think Rachel Reed is wrong about a lot of things, but also... no And I'm a hater. And you know what?
00:28:20
Speaker
ah um And I feel like Maria and I would get along really well. But yeah, indeed. Because she's also a hater. like She's also a hater! like But I wonder, Lauren, you're saying that you support women's wrongs. Does that include Rachel Rees?
00:28:40
Speaker
o um I saw this thread the other day and it was like, Rachel Reed is not your mother, nor is she your queen. i saw it. yeah and i was And you know what? I couldn't have said it better myself.
00:28:53
Speaker
um She needs to go to a sensitivity training or six. I don't know. The microaggressions are wild. Her and Jacob, everybody keeps saying like, it's Canadian sarcasm. I'm like, okay, if it's Canadian sarcasm, we all really got to talk about Canada because that's not sarcasm y'all. The fact that Canada is not the US does not mean that Canada is not racist. Say it again. Keep saying it! Metrocities against the indigenous populations. yeah There is a level of racism in Canada that...
00:29:24
Speaker
it it It almost, you would think it goes undetected, but it's just more subtle than you would face it in America, unfortunately. And when you're speaking to a worldwide audience, you kind of got to figure out how to talk to that audience with sensitivity.
00:29:42
Speaker
That's all I'm asking for. worried the The bar is so, so low. The bar is in hell. Literally in hell. That doesn't mean that you can use Canadian to just like justify absolutely everything you say.
00:29:54
Speaker
I know Justin Trudeau did a lot of PR during Trump's first thing, but um Canada, you're still part of the problem of the global north. Sorry.
00:30:07
Speaker
And you know what it It was because he was hot. And then the blackface pictures came out. And the Katy Perry. Now he's dating Katy Perry. yeah And that part too. That's weird to me. I don't, I don't. Why are we talking about a man? Why are we talking about a man? doing this We need to de-center men in our lives.
00:30:25
Speaker
We need to de-center men in our lives. I'm still so upset about that. Let me just, let me just, I'm literally going walk into the lake. I'm going to walk into the lake. So, Maria, do we have any other thoughts on Maria?
00:30:40
Speaker
I just want to say one more thing, and we have touched on this. At this point, I hope everyone can tell the difference between Maria and
Cultural Critiques and Representation
00:30:48
Speaker
Elena. Please. But if you don't, you need to rewatch, and you also need to go to a sensitivity training. And perhaps open your eyes, because they're very clearly different. Go to the ophthalmologist. You know what, Rogue? You're right. Go to the ophthalmologist. Yeah.
00:31:07
Speaker
I think that it's literally such a microaggression, like, what the fuck do you mean? It's literally all brown people look alike. that's It's literally that microaggression. Yes. Like, no, no, bro, no. You're just blind. if's You're just blind. You are also racist.
00:31:22
Speaker
It feels the same to me as when I'm out with my friends and because me and like two of my other friends are the same skin complexion, they assume like, oh, you three must be sisters. None of us are related.
00:31:35
Speaker
it's just It's just the immediate thought that they have. And it's like, perhaps perhaps don't say the first thing that comes to your mind. Perhaps dig a little deeper.
00:31:47
Speaker
Oh my God. The fact that says a lot about those people, you know, like who they hang up with. Because if the first thought at seeing three people are of the same skin complexion is siblings, I am worried.
00:32:03
Speaker
i am I am really worried. What they were dating? True, true. My friends are hot, I could be dating them. God. Yes! Date your friends. Date your hot friends.
00:32:15
Speaker
i Rogue, I do hope that you date ho hot friends. Not these ones necessarily if you don't want to, but I yeah i wish everyone to be dating someone that you can call a friend and someone that is hot at the same time.
00:32:30
Speaker
I am. I'm engaged. That is my wish for everyone. Oh, you're engaged. Okay. And you know what? Congratulations. I'm so happy for you. yeah When you're engaged to the right person, you're basically dating for a long, long time. Exactly.
00:32:47
Speaker
Lauren, you sounded so angry. look, Lauren, that you gave to the camera. I'm happy for you, grumpy face. No, I'm so happy for you. I'm literally going to go walk into the lake. I'm walking off my second story balcony.
00:33:02
Speaker
I loved it. ah good Dear God. Well, getting my rescue certification just to go diving after you. yeah jesus Amanda, don't, don't save me. I'm where I want to be. to be.
00:33:26
Speaker
The Garfield meme, who do you think took your boobs? Anyways, i' getting off of our tangent, going back to the other brown woman that people keep messing up, but saying they look like each other, is Elena, who I ah and truly love Elena. I feel like she I'm scared of her, one, and I'm also aroused by her, two. Yes. Yes, correct. Yes. Thank you. And you know what? The only way to be. Correct. She, i I don't think I read Game Changers before the show came out. I read Game Changers later, but I knew of Scott. And so then getting to see her in like the story for Game Changers, I think was really great because she really is such an impactful part of Scott Kip's story. Yeah.
00:34:12
Speaker
I also really love how we get Maria and Elena creating community and like, like we see their friend group like, and that's not really something that we see for either Shane or Ilya. But we like we get to see that for Scott. And then like later we get to see that for Kyle. And I really, i really love getting to see the friendship group. piece of it and like we see that in tough guy too with fabian's friend group and like the support systems that are made up for mostly the love and like the non-hockey love interests in in the books is such a such a joy to see For sure.
00:34:52
Speaker
ah do love that Elena, like the way she is with Kip, at least in the show, I haven't read their book, so I'm not sure how she is with with ah with them in the book, but I do love how Elena isn't afraid to say the quiet part out loud.
00:35:08
Speaker
Hmm. Like she very much sees when her like Kip was one of her closest friends, from what I can tell in the show, like they're very close. They're their friendship is what it seems to me. So she very quickly recognizes when he starts to make himself look smaller or be smaller and sort of like sort of compact himself down in order to fit another person into his life. And I like that she very quickly calls that out. Like she's not afraid to to sort of like say, hey, you're doing it again.
00:35:37
Speaker
like she's not afraid to to so sort of pull him out of that or at least stand with him in it and say, hey, you deserve this happiness. You deserve this sunshine. You don't deserve to hide yourself away in order to bend for someone else's happiness. Exactly. Everyone is such a fan like that, i think. yeah I think we all need a friend like that in the on our lives.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah, and I think her her comment to Scott that everyone deserves happiness is really resounding with him and really impacts his decision later on and really helps prompt him to and like realize like what he's doing to Scott is it's like or what he's doing to Kip. Or he's like, oh, like I'm happy. like He's happy. like you know We're good. But it's Elena's comment in that ballroom or in that at that fundraiser where he's really like, oh, maybe he's not as... yeah Yeah, for sure. i've I love that there's, like, the sunshine line. Like, that is really important to me. i think, like, I think I had, like, some critiques about Elena. Like, I get that she is, like, I feel like we're, like, very similar because that is how I act when, like, I talk to my friends' partners. I'm like, listen...
00:36:48
Speaker
you don't have that person that is my person but like i was also like i don't know like how aware she is of like scott's situation and not that i want to give like any man peace or grace but like that is like something that i don't know like how much she played like how much she understands about it Like, I don't know how familiar she is with hockey and like the homophobia and the culture that's a part of it. And so like, initially when I watched that, I was like, oh damn, she's kind of harsh. But then I watched it back again and I was like, wait, no, I would totally, like if my best, anyone comes from my best friend, I'm like, and you know what? Go fuck yourself.
00:37:28
Speaker
i think I think she is aware, at least in the book she seems very aware. And also I want to mention the name of the actress, Nadine Baba, doing an amazing job. Yes. Because she she delivers that line like the way she does it. Because it is harsh, it is a wake-up call. But at the same time, it's very sweet.
00:37:49
Speaker
Eyes on me, a handsome, and all of that. And she's like, you're not doing this for yourself. Like, you're not outing yourself right now because you're looking at him. But also, you need to figure this out. And I think what, like, I do think that she's aware.
00:38:05
Speaker
I just think that she doesn't think it is sustainable. Yes. Which is something i i really like because we are a society that is so, so attached to this idea of love conquers all. And love is like the the reason for everything. so you should accept anything in the name of love. And i don't think that...
00:38:31
Speaker
we should keep feeding that narrative. I think yeah that sometimes you love someone and I have been in relationships where it ends not because lack of love, but because it's not sustainable in the dynamic that that both people are are carrying. and And I think that is one of the hardest ways to break up, but also that's how I built one of the most beautiful friendships I ever had in my life. So I do love the idea that love cannot be the only thing that sustains a relationship between two people.
00:39:09
Speaker
That you need something else. And if the only reason why you're staying is that you love the other person, even though it's hurting you, even though you're drowning, even though the dynamic is toxic or anything, then...
00:39:24
Speaker
that love will eventually get poisoned. Yeah, and no. And I think that the book is a bit more insistent on how the well is getting poisoned and keeps heart, you know? Like, I don't think that the episode in the show gives us enough time to see that. But when when we get to this point of Scott suddenly being more aware and being told that this is not good for any of them at that point keep is already like in very bad shape emotionally yeah and elena knows that and no matter how much she appreciates scott and loves that they're in love she sees keep fading away
00:40:11
Speaker
Because that's what's happening. like Everyone is noticing that is that he is more isolated. That he is fading away. And it's not a balanced situation. Because everything depends on Scott's career.
00:40:26
Speaker
And we can understand that. And be compassionate towards Scott. Like ah Elena does. But at the same time. I think none of us will want our best friend to be hidden away or fading away because of the person they love, even if that person is a nice person. yeah Yeah. I think that's why it seems a bit harsh coming from her because she is so protective of Kip. But I think i think from her perspective, it has to come off a little bit mean because she sees just how much Kip is like shrinking in on himself that she knows, okay, I'm going to step up for my friend here and say, say the quiet part are a lot, I'm going to say what she knows Kip isn't going to tell Scott.
00:41:08
Speaker
Because she knows Kip is going to like keep convincing himself that he's okay with it. And he's okay with it. he's okay with it. And he's going to stay in the darkness of Scott's apartment and in the darkness of Scott's house. And he's going to keep telling himself that he's happy.
00:41:23
Speaker
even though she knows that he's not so she's gonna step up and tell Scott hey you're not making my friend happy in the way that you think you are and he's not gonna tell you that so it does come off a little bit mean but i mean I think there's also the thing of we I think we as a society sort of always expect women to always know everything and to always do the right thing immediately first but i mean she only has her perspective of the situation So she's going to do what she feels is right in the moment. And sure, yes, like Lau said, she has empathy for Scott, most likely, but her first instinct is to protect her friend. and Yeah. Kip's her priority. And she wants them to be happy, and but not at the expense of Kip's mental health and his sense of self and and everything. And so she does what she thinks she can to help get Scott into a place where he's
00:42:11
Speaker
able to join tip in that. Yeah. Yeah, i've I think that's mostly, yeah, that that is one of my favorite parts of that episode. It's her. And it's that voice of reason that take us out of this traditional romance where everything is like this beautiful fantasy, living in this amazing New York apartment and being like the domestic. couple that they are and bringing them and us back to earth and saying okay now after after like after the fact that you have confessed your love you're both like you know that you want to be together we're past that now you have to face real life and i yeah i just hope everyone listening knows that if you are in a situation where
00:43:01
Speaker
your whole life is centered on one person, that is a very, very fragile state and it can crumble any second. You need you need ah a you need a community.
00:43:14
Speaker
You need more than that. And I hope that that's what we take from this queen, very, very smart woman.
Character Growth and Relationships
00:43:22
Speaker
Yeah, I don't have anything as serious to add. I do appreciate and I love that note about community. I really agree. I think community is so strong and important. And that's really evident in Skip's episode ah as community is so important for Kip. um But I wanted to mention one of my favorite Elena moments is when we first meet her at the Kingfisher. And we've already met some of the others where they're like, thank you, Kyle. Thank you, Kyle, like at the bar and whatever. But we meet Elena he's
00:43:51
Speaker
Kyle is like no outside food and Elena is fuck off Kyle. For me, no literally say no i know it's so funny, but for me, it's so like, okay, right. She stands on business and does not take no for an answer. Like she gets what she wants and she makes it happen. And I appreciate that. And it took me, I think, until my second watch to realize that she can get away with it is because she brings him the food. Because I thought she was just doing that to do that. But I think she can get away with being a little mean because and mean, like in like ah a loving way, because it's like saying like, fuck you to your friends, like how Lauren tells me to fucking fuck stop all the time or whatever. But it's like a loving thing as friends. And so it's not towards you.
00:44:34
Speaker
Right. Right. No. um No, and exactly. i have I have said this before to our guests. They are a married couple. And i I was just newly introduced to the trouble.
00:44:49
Speaker
you want to Do you want to know what these words on my... Sorry, it's upside down. It's upside down. My friends write on this. It's on my door. It's blurry as fuck. can't reach Shana Amanda. Yeah.
00:45:02
Speaker
It says, this is Lauren's writing. It it says, miss you, L-O-M-L-A-O-M-E. That stands for love of my life, apple of my eye. so if Lauren says they don't love me, they are going to rip their eyes out, I guess. Yep.
00:45:18
Speaker
Amanda's keeping the response. Amanda said, I'm going to go get the whiteboard right now. Upside down and all. I can prove. I love the verbal affirmation. Yes. no it's She's like kind that way where she's hateful and like, fuck you, Kyle, but here is your food that I got for you to like keep up our friendship and stuff. and so that But that was for me very showing of her character to say like, fuck off Kyle like I'm gonna kind of do what I want here but also here is your food because I love you so that was for me it was very like showing not telling of the like she stands her ground and takes no shit from a man and in that same scene we see her be a girl's girl because she's like okay I don't care what you think you white man just let me know what Maria the authority on this situation ah has to say about whether or not this man is attracted to you.
00:46:13
Speaker
She's like, i don't trust I don't trust your judgment. What is the what is the impartial third third party observer yes who knows what she's talking about say? Exactly. Um, honestly, the phrase girl's girl triggers me so much because i don't, did y'all watch Love Island season seven of the U.S. last? no post i or term wasn't the one before that yeah The one with Huda, right?
00:46:35
Speaker
The one with Huda and Oleandria. That's the only one I've seen. All they kept me like was, I'm a girl's girl. I'm a girl's girl. Oleandria is not a girl's girl. And it's like, why are you going after the, one of the only black women on this show? Hmm.
00:46:50
Speaker
You know why. Anyways, besides the point, irrelevant. That triggered the hell out of the You mean like, she's a girl's girl. And I was like, and you know what? What does that actually mean? Sometimes it's just an excuse to be catty.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, that season was hell. I can't. It gives me PTSD. It gives me PTSD. I'm writing an article on it and it gives me PTSD. Hell yeah. Any other Elena thoughts? i don't know. I think Elena and Maria are so pivotal to not only Kip and Scott, but I think sets up an interesting framework for when you apply some of their thoughts to Holonov as well, because like everyone deserves sunshine and just the way that they can read the men, like even though they don't interact outside of New York with our our our crew, i still think that the lessons we learn are not exclusive to that episode. And I appreciate that. and and But then we do get the rest of the insight from the rest of the women. And i think that they're great women too, and even though they're just in basically that episode and a little bit of I'll Believe in Anything, I think they're great.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah. It's definitely a theme that goes, that runs through the whole season. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's like, I think it's such a juxtaposition to Ilya and Shane's story where they don't have that community. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:00
Speaker
yeah the the juxtaposition between um kept having like such a large group of friends and having like compared to ilia he's he's very isolated ilia i mean in terms of like having people around him like he has his team around him obviously he has he has vedlana but only when he goes to russia but he's he's very isolated especially when he's on the road and away from home and even when he is home he's still very isolated in terms in terms of being around his father and his brother that's it that's a whole other thing so I think there's also something to be said about Skipp and Cot.
00:48:35
Speaker
Wow. Scott and Kip. I think there's something to be said about Scott and Kip taking, whether you're taking the book timeline of like six months or the show timeline of two years, question mark, yeah to get to like figure out, to work through the the logistics of their relationship and to get to their happy ending with the help of Kip's community and Maria and Elena versus Holonov and their 10-year situationship hell that they suffered through. And yes, the situations are different. They're both hockey players versus just Scott having to deal with the league stuff, but...
00:49:12
Speaker
community is powerful. I have question. We love it. so Do y'all think if Elena and or Maria met Holonov at any point in their situationship, if they would have like clocked it and like said something and like made progress or yeah Yes.
00:49:31
Speaker
I don't like know. feel like they need to like be like on the friend level. like if If they were friends, yeah yes. I think if they were friends, they would clock it, but I think if they were not, they would not. Because I know we've said before, like if someone was in the locker room when JJ is like, he he didn't go to all I know is he didn't go to Nashville, we know that ah any woman would have clocked that, but I'm wondering yes if...
00:49:54
Speaker
because hayden is like lily's calling and like doesn't give a shit but i because like and svetlana knows there's a jane but like doesn't push him on it and i'm wondering if elena or maria would push specifically elena since she does push kip i wonder if elena would push either holanov i think part of it is they don't have all the pieces like everybody has one piece of the puzzle nobody's able to see more than one piece of the puzzle next to each other I also think that Shane and Ilya's personalities are drastically different than Scott and Kip's. yeah And that Scott and Kip are able to be pushed and more open to that. yeah Especially at the point that Scott's in, in his career. But Shane, because not only of his like interstitial identities and his intersecting identities of like his race and his like queerness, but also like you have to think about like Ilya's like,
00:50:51
Speaker
cultural like low content or like high context you have to think about like so many other things i don't think i think literally if like elena or maria like try if elena tried to push like svetlana tries to kind of push i think they would just shut down and wouldn't talk to them like i think it's a very different situation between the two groups of people yeah No, very agree with that. I feel like if Elena tried to push Ilya, she would meet a brick wall. It very much wouldn't work because like of the way Ilya's personality works. And if she would try to push Shane, she would meet probably a similar brick wall, but in a different, more emotional way, i think.
00:51:33
Speaker
So I don't and don't think that their personalities would would play off that well together unless she had that history of knowing them and knowing what they're like.
00:51:44
Speaker
Yeah. And you could like argue that like if we want to switch and start talking about Rose, like part of the reason that Rose gets Shane to like talk about himself is because she like spends so much time with him and she learns so much about him. And then she's able to kind of like integrate herself and push a little bit. Whereas I think if like Shane just met Elena or like, I think he would just brush her off. Like he brushes Scott off or, you know, whatever. But I think Rose and Svetlana we'll talk about later, but I think Rose is really integral obviously to Shane's identity, like, like coming out to Ilya, like that part of Shane's story, because I think Shane fully goes into the, that relationship with Rose, I see it as kind of like a last ditch effort, like as kind of like a, I haven't had like a relationship like this in a while, but I know that I really like Ilya and I'm really scared about what's going on there because it means that I'm gay. But if I try and date a woman really quickly, then maybe it won't mean that I'm gay. You know, maybe I could be bisexual, which would be different. Right. And so I think like Rose is really integral to that part of Shane's journey.
00:52:59
Speaker
As both like physically and mentally like talking through it with him like physically and mentally like emotionally being there for him but also just like that is at the point in his journey where he's like all right well if this doesn't work then like fuck it falls to the wall you know. yeah Yeah I think especially. Especially after his conversation with Ilya, like, the moments before Tuna Melt Meltdown, like, where Ilya is like, oh, you like women? Like, women, do you like them? And he's like, yeah, sure, like, whatever. i think that he doesn't start pondering that until after, until he's with Rose, until Rose is like, do you like kissing me? And then it's the same sort of, like, immediate, like, sure, yeah, whatever. Like, that immediateness, I think. And I know Rose doesn't clock that because she doesn't get to see the Tuna Melt Meltdown, but I think that's when Shane...
00:53:43
Speaker
i think I'm wondering if he's put the pieces together already or if Rose has to point it out for him. Because, I don't know, it's... I go back and forth, because I think he knows that he's queer, but yeah, I think you're that he's, like, proving it to himself. Which is, I think what he tells Ilya later is that he needed to, to like, not prove, because that doesn't feel right, but, like, you know...
00:54:01
Speaker
He needed to be sure before he took risks that he took. And yeah, i think I think that's so relatable as a queer person to be like investigating your own past and trying to collect whether it is to prove that you are queer or to prove that you're not.
00:54:18
Speaker
and and and And really like I do think that it it can be so invalidating to to explore sexuality when you're when you're forced to constantly know. Like, a lot of people don't know because they're not as aware of what feelings mean.
00:54:34
Speaker
Like, I am someone who takes a long time to realize that I'm falling in love. People have to point it out to me. Like, that's a crush. You're in love. And I'm like, no I just like giggle all the time when I'm this with this person, blah, blah, blah. And also, I think there's a lot of like the story we tell ourselves about who we are sometimes to not match the reality that we're experiencing. And that does take a lot of mental effort to to bring that narrative forward closer to the reality that you're living in and it can take a long time for your brain to to make the connection and actually start processing the information even even if the information seems obvious from the outside it is not always as obvious when you're so close to it when you're like experiencing it and you have to deal with all the voices in your head that are telling you what you should be So I can relate to that. I wanted to shout out to Rose more specifically.
00:55:39
Speaker
We all know i love Rose. But Sophie and Elise, I am it all. of her versatility, because this is the same actress of Shona, you know Shona in Yellow Jackets? Yeah. A person that has zero, zero empathy. Like she's evil. she the same She's She's evil. She's cruel.
00:56:06
Speaker
um I know the contact lenses do a lot of work in Yellow Jackets for her character. But in here, the first time I saw her, I was like, I know you, you're from Yellow Jackets. But took me so long to realize it was Shauna. Right.
00:56:22
Speaker
It's a completely different human being, not only in the color of the eyes and in the character she's playing, but the body language is different.
00:56:32
Speaker
The gazes are different. And I felt... So happy to see her do that. I was like, yes, I love when actors can act.
00:56:46
Speaker
And I just, I just, I'm in awe. I love her. I think she's amazing. And even though she annoys me a lot in Yellow Jackets, I can now... z Every single time I'm annoyed, after an episode, I can always go back to the memory of Rose Landry and be comforted by it.
Met Gala Fashion Interlude
00:57:09
Speaker
i think um I think for Shane, that really adds to his confusion with Rose. is that Yes. like Their first interaction immediately, i think rose is i think what confuses him most is that she's so disarming for him.
00:57:24
Speaker
Because like one of the first scenes we get with Shane, I think in like the first or second episode, is the ah the announcer's voice. talking about you know how Shane and Ilya are on the ice and like one of the first things they say about Shane is he's not he's not very sociable you know like we we don't really see him go out with the team and and have a lot of fun but he's great on the ice and stuff so we know like he doesn't really get along with people a lot or that's he's usually going into most interactions not expecting to be himself immediately he's usually tempering himself to other people's expectations and then basing his conversation off of that so i think going into that that first conversation he gets with rose at the bar he's like unexpectedly relaxed and he he finds himself being able to actually talk to someone without having to hold everything back even though he is obviously holding stuff back from her you know like with his whole relationship with ilia or the
00:58:18
Speaker
the non-relationship with Ilya. But I think that's what confuses him is that he finds it so easy to talk to this person. He's like, oh, she's so nice. She's so friendly. We get along so well. Surely that must mean that we have to date now.
00:58:32
Speaker
and And I think that adds to to his internal confet, compulsory head heteronormativity, yeah because he he confuses the two of like, oh, he confuses the two of like, oh, this person can be my friend or i can date this person, which which is not always the same thing he's like oh my gosh a woman a woman that i like and i can i enjoy talking to and we get along and like it's easy to have conversations with her i don't have to like think too much about it yeah gotta gotta date her is this what is this what being in a straight relationship is like but see i mean oliver is cosplaying as a lesbian yeah yeah second him like he's like is this person my friend or do they want to date me Also, based on the way straight people talk about their partners, I will completely understand that Shane has no idea what love means between a man and a woman. will Yes, because he hears like the people in the locker room that are talking about like, oh, Ball and Chain or whatever. And Hayden loves Jackie bad. Like, that's his one good frame of reference. But, you know, damn well, the rest of the metros are shitty as hell so theirre to their wags. Like, they're terrible. So his even his compent understanding of cishet love, like, that is is a little skewed. And, that and like, David and Yuna are, like, a great image for him of what love is to look like. but But what he hears in the locker room, if it's any impact on him, on how he should date, it's kind of abysmal. Yeah.
01:00:04
Speaker
i think I think also part of it is that he, like, whether we're talking book Shane, who has had other experiences outside of Ilya or show Shane, where, like, it is really just kind of his high school girlfriend and Ilya. even know if they have him have his high school girlfriend in the show, but he hasn't had, like, Ilya has been his only, like, good romantic sexual relationship.
01:00:28
Speaker
person that he's had romantic sexual encounters with. So if he's going through this, this thought process of like, Oh my God, like I, I have to try, like, I have to, I have to see if I can make this work with a woman. And along comes Rose, who is a woman, and he's able to have this connection with her. Yeah, and he's like, okay, maybe maybe it's just like this crazy good with Ilya. Maybe this is just what it's like with anybody who's not Ilya. Maybe this is as good as it's going to get like for someone with someone that's not him.
01:00:57
Speaker
And he just he goes for it, and like my friend, that is that is a BFF. That is not a girlfriend. That is a BFF. like Boy learns what it is to key with someone for the first time. Yeah.
01:01:11
Speaker
Yeah. Hayley, when you say a woman, I can only think of epic and musical. Yes. A woman. who A woman. Well, and especially thinking of like Circe as like a woman as she's like a manipulator kids like sailors and Odysseus as a trickster.
01:01:29
Speaker
Yeah. Rose S. Cersei, give it to me. Yes! Christopher Nolan, go back. Christopher Nolan, go back. yeah So, Finalease S. Cersei, yes.
01:01:40
Speaker
Yes. you Welcome to the best part of your life. Alright, listeners. We, the Hudson Met Gala picks just dropped, so we took a brief intermission, so that's why this transition's awkward, but if you haven't seen that already, or if you want a reminder to go look again how beautiful these men look. my god. Goodness. Go look again. We're confused on where the grill went, so by the time you're listening to this, hopefully we have an answer as to why you... Hopefully we have an answer on where the grill is. Yeah. Honestly, hate to say I mean, the outfit's incredible, but I'm underwhelmed.
01:02:11
Speaker
Yeah, I... it For me, it really is... i am not pro... matador or pro bull killing so for me just this brings this brings a lot of like questions first of all around cultural appropriation but also around like animal rights i i don't like it to me makeup doesn't make sense that's that was i was thinking like red like i like the makeup i love it it doesn't make sense where you get the red from like yeah yeah i do maybe yeah maybe they did his makeup like this because he has to like quick change into something else oh lauren did the designers ever do as our as our met gala expert on the call did the designers ever do like an author's note on like their look
01:02:58
Speaker
like a feast Like, do they speak on the look that they put together at all? Or is it they just put the work together? It's usually not the author. It's usually not the designers. It's the um stylists. The stylists will usually have stylist notes. So we always can look at Anastasia's page. She'll probably put them up, like, later tonight.
01:03:14
Speaker
And, I mean, she did, like, an incredible job. She dressed Shibuzi last year for the Met Gala. And his look was amazing. And so, like, because last year was... black dandyism it was like the history of like the black dandy as fashion blackness a lot of people wrong but yeah a lot of people got it wrong um because you have to think about the the the most most of the people who attend but i remember shabuzzi's look being very good and so she'll probably put something on her she usually does like notes on his styling afterwards it'll either be like
01:03:49
Speaker
She'll talk about it in a magazine or she'll talk about it on our Instagram, something like that. And Aika usually will do notes about his hair and makeup and why they chose it. And that you can usually find, a like, generally most celebrity stylists will do that kind of stuff.
01:04:03
Speaker
Very good. Oh, it's Archive Balenciaga. It's from... 1947 it's the earliest piece in the collection and it's based on a matador's jacket it shows the influence balenciaga spanish heritage which is peppered throughout his career uh balenciaga was born in a fishing village in the basque region region of spain and he always draws upon flamenco ruffles and black lace His pants are not tailored to where they should be, which I don't love. But I'm imagining either like a gold or like black lace or almost like couple chains under him, like wrapping around his body. So they peek through almost like shibari type, like that kind of style of just like gently draped over his torso. I think that would be really cute.
01:04:45
Speaker
Why are his ears spray painted? I don't know if I'm a fan of that. Yeah, I don't know if I like that either. this is why I asked because i am not...
01:04:55
Speaker
fashion girly. Like that is not my area of expertise. So I'm going to see what like the intent behind the look was. Well, yeah. So then he's a friend of Balenciaga. So basically when you, like when you're like a part of you're,
01:05:13
Speaker
You are either a friend of the house or you're like in the house. So Connor is in YSL. He's like a part of YSL. And so that's why all of his looks have been YSL, even though YSL dresses him like shit. Right. He has to choose YSL because that's who's brand sponsoring him.
01:05:34
Speaker
Hudson is a friend of Balenciaga so he can wear Balenciaga he was at the Balenciaga Paris Fashion Week or was it Milan Fashion Week one of the two but he doesn't have to wear it all of the time but I like that it's a like I like that it's a historical like fashion piece like I think those are always really interesting for people to do Did their stylists do this on purpose where they both are wearing pants capes? Connor's is his necktie. Okay.
01:05:59
Speaker
Connor is wearing a shirt like Hudson wore for the Golden Globes. Yes. After party. It doesn't, I don't think the, I think the pants had to be created. Also, that is normal for where men wear pants, Amanda.
01:06:15
Speaker
kind Like men don't wear waist. It's not tailored to, like it's past his ankles. It's almost like the sole of his shoe. Oh, he might just have long pants on them. I thought you were talking about where his waistline is. No, no, no. The low rise is fine. I'm talking about at the feet.
01:06:28
Speaker
Yeah. He might've just not had time to get it tailored is the other thing. Or the other problem with a lot of historical fashion is it doesn't fit people. Like, Marilyn, Kim Kardashian ruined Marilyn Monroe's dress. Famously, yeah. When she wore it for Met Gala. My heart always
Svetlana’s Character Evolution
01:06:44
Speaker
breaks at that. that like That was the worst, the worst thing ever.
01:06:48
Speaker
it set a horrible precedent, too. Yes, yeah. Like, and celebrities don't care about historic fashion. Like, they don't wear the same clothes every day. Like, they don't... And now I'm going get into how the Met Gala. That's okay. We should talk about Svetlana. I have a birthday tomorrow. I need to get ready for are now covering the Met Gala.
01:07:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Amazing. All right. We are going to now turn to the other half of the Roselana ship, Svetlana, who I think we all said was at least some of our favorite character. Love Svetlana. And you know what? She's a great character because her her her characterization is nothing like the book. And I'm actually really excited to see what they do in the long game because, like, I remember part of the long game, Ilya's like, can I tell Svetlana?
01:07:29
Speaker
And, like, they have to go to dinner together and him to be like, yeah, I'm dating Shane Hollander. But, like, she knows. She knows. She knows. She's going to announce move to Ottawa and she's going to like, when am I meeting him? Yeah.
01:07:44
Speaker
Yep. So let's talk about Svetlana, who wants to start us off. There's so much to talk about with her. And where do we even begin? Okay, first, where when when do y'all think she realizes Jane is Shane?
01:07:59
Speaker
that's like When she catches Ilya watching the movie in his house. The lighthouse. Before they're about to go out. The cottage documentary. Yes. I agree. I think that's true. Because again, and I mentioned it when we covered that episode, and I'll say it again, she, the scene where the game is canceled and Ilya comes home and Svetlana's in his apartment, literally the two weeks before that, he had just gotten Shane's number. So it was, it's a fresh Jane.
01:08:23
Speaker
And she's like, oh, Jane, like new person, you're texting. And every year keeps up with it. So she knows of her existence his his her existence forever. feel like she confirms it when they're um talking about them playing on the same team. And then Ilya's like, have you them? Corner me? And then she's like, oh, I think she puts it together then.
01:08:44
Speaker
but yeah I think she's like a little suspicious in the beginning when they're like about to go out to the club. Because listen, when I'm going to the club, I'm not watching my rivals. Yeah. Like cottage documentary. I'm like drinking, finishing my makeup, calling the Uber. smoking a cig like I'm not regaming yeah i'm pre-gaming I'm not like sitting on my couch waiting for my hot not girlfriend and watching my not rival on this on the on the screen so I think that's like the first moment where it's kind of like
01:09:17
Speaker
And honestly, like Svetlana is so perceptive. Like she lives in Boston. We know that. And like he they hook up every time they play against each other. Right. And so like Svetlana is like, oh, you're not going to be available tonight because you're playing Montreal. Why would you not be available?
01:09:34
Speaker
Yeah. She's not a dumb, dumb. No, she's so smart. She she's super clever. Yeah. And she knows when to deploy the information that she knows. Yes. get, like, to help Ilya through this process. Like, she knows him enough. Like, they're so, they know each other so well that she knows when he will be receptive and when he won't be and when he'll, like, he needs to hear, he needs to hear something, like, when they're when they're in Russia for his dad's funeral. Like, she, their relationship in the show is one of my favorite moments.
01:10:07
Speaker
adaptation choices that made yeah i think she's one of the smartest people in the show emotionally and and just otherwise because of this like because she doesn't point it out to him when she realizes she holds on to it because it's like what what is she gonna do with it but you're right it's when they're in russia where she's like yeah i know jane is a he like she like hints at it and but doesn't let it get to her because she's like he'll figure out she's almost like opposite Elena in that way where she's like he's got his own shit that he will figure out with whoever this person is and but we're just we're like she knows that her relationship with him is good and she's not going to get involved in his business until she has to And she knows where not to push. yeah Yes, exactly, Rogue. She knows where not to push, and in a way that is not... This is something I talk a lot with people that have family members in toxic relationships. Not that Ilya is in a toxic... But knowing how not to push, but always letting the other person know that the door is open for when they decide to talk. And I think she's very good at that.
01:11:11
Speaker
She's very good at saying like, I'm going to stop right here, but I'm going to stop because I already delivered the message that I wanted to deliver is that you can talk to me about anything and I'll be here when you're finally ready to this discuss this. She's very good at meeting Ilya halfway because she knows that if she pushes him too too hard, he gets to a point where he either shuts down completely and doesn't let her in anymore, or he just chooses to go off the deep end in the worst way and ignore how he's feeling entirely. And she knows overall that's not going to help him. So she... She's very good at like meeting him where he is halfway in a way that lets him know sort of non-verbally a lot of the time of like, hey, I am still here. I am still in your corner. I'm on your team. I'm on your side. Whenever you feel like opening up or talking about the thing that's clearly bothering you, I'm here for that.
01:12:03
Speaker
And I think that's, I love that they made that change in the show, especially like watching the show and then going back and reading the book. It was a whiplash to me because I was like, wait, Smedlana isn't in this book.
01:12:14
Speaker
I was like, where is my girl? Who is Ilya talking to? Because I know it's not Marlo. so like So it was um it was it was very very much a shock of like, I i worry for Ilya in the book a lot. But in the show, I at least have the peace of mind of knowing, okay, he does have Svetlana when he chooses to lean on her, at least. So...
01:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, I love her as a character. just Just everything about her just so... I really hope that they stay with her in season two, because I know in the and the long game, obviously, there's um like, Ilya is not in Russia anymore. I really hope that they don't lose contact. hope that's still in his life so that he still has someone to lean on, especially with all that we get in the long game for for his isolation and for how that affects his depression, which I, oh, sorry, spoilers for the long game, I guess. those spoil Our one allotted spoiler per episode. Yeah. that they keep Zvetlana...
01:13:15
Speaker
yeah um i really hope that that they keeps be la a Sarah Robinson, With the that they have from season one, because obviously we know like we've seen the science from season one that. Sarah Robinson, illusion suppression is there like we've we've seen them depict that and like small baby bits that they've given to us, which I have no doubt they're going to expand upon in season two but.
01:13:37
Speaker
I hope that we don't get a ah a cold turkey. Ilya doesn't talk to Svetlana anymore. Like that part of his life is left behind. He doesn't want any part of Russia to be dealt with in his life anymore. He's just fully here, fully committed to Shane now. And I don't know. i really hope that that that we get her in some capacity. At least. I think we will. know exactly. ah yeah I don't think they're going to dump her. Like, I feel like she she's got to be there. Like, that's... That's crazy. I like something i obviously really like, i would love to talk to Hesanya who plays Svetlana, like, because I want to know about like, how she can like, conceived as this character, when the character was like white and blonde and stereotypically Russian. in the book and like how her growing up Russian and like how that part of her heritage like how how did that like influence her playing this character and like I just want to ask her like so many questions that I like can't ask her until I'm then you know face to face with her so um Ksenia you want to come on the show please please do um because i have so many questions that i want to ask you especially about like because you know we've seen kind of like very racist vitriol kate against hudson and i'm wondering like how because i haven't seen any of that against ksenia or like who plays yuna christina ching like i haven't seen a lot of that like anything really aimed against the women and I mean, it could be because heated rivalry fandom is like populated by mostly women, but like, I would be interested to see kind of how she conceived of this character who was white in the books and she is not, you know? So it's definitely like a ah thread of questioning. I just would love to ask her. Yeah. I feel like the way that the fandom responds to Svetlana in the show versus in the book and and the the lack of discrimination against against Cassinia um in the show I think is mostly because Svetlana in the show is such a different character from how she is in the book or from how she's pretty. Like she's almost not a character in the book. She's more of an archetype. Yes.
01:15:50
Speaker
And versus in the show, she actually has a personality. She has opinions. She's not, she's not a backboard for Ilya to, to, to be around. She's not like in the background. She's very much in his life. She has an active role in his life. She's someone who, who Ilya sees as someone to protect as we've as we've seen um you know with with how he is with his brother. They're they're almost two different to entirely different people, I think. And that's why I think people have such a different reaction to it because there's no there's no base for it almost. Not to say that like Rachel like didn't include Svetan in the book because she is, but it's like it's not it's not the same, I think. Yeah. I think like going off of that, having like in the fan fiction that I've read, there's a lot of people, like people will specify like, oh, this is using like book canon, this is using show canon, this is using like a hybrid. I've never seen, and maybe other folks who who have been also reading of, he did robbery fan fiction but I haven't seen the book Svetlana like in and like anytime Svetlana's in the fix it's show Svetlana like that is the character that the authors are are building off of and and exploring she actually has a depth
01:17:05
Speaker
Yeah. yeah yeah She took that... And also, she took that character. not not only, like, the script did something with that character that is way more interesting, and the casting, but Ksenia herself, like, she she made something that is...
01:17:21
Speaker
long lasting in people's memories. Which is not happening with books of Atlanta. So I don't think like I wonder what's gonna happen with the next books. I wonder if this is gonna have have like I doubt it because yeah Rachel Reed is definitely not like Rick Riordan but Unfortunately. to Because Rick is very much like he's writing right now and you can see the cast on the books. on You can see how it changes. exactly.
01:17:54
Speaker
And how he has started to implement a lot of what the actors have brought to the table. And I wish we would get that for Shane and Svetlana and other characters, but I doubt it. Yeah, I was wondering about that. I know we mentioned it in our race episode of like if if it if Shane's race, not to make it about a man, or but I'll connect it back. um If Rachel tries to have Shane investigate his race a little bit more, we want it to feel authentic and genuine. And I don't know if there's a way to retcon Svetlana that way, unfortunately, or the way that Rick does is instead of describing like physical... features describing like emotional reactions or like expressions or like the clothes that that they're wearing and stuff like that because yeah i feel like there's just ways to describe people outside of like how they look and i hope that that maybe rachel adds a bit of kesenny's as svetlana's personality into books svetlana i think that would be because it is an improvement honestly yeah yeah like more one than one-dimensional
01:18:57
Speaker
Right. And I think like, i think to even transition this to talking about our last woman in heated rivalry, Yuna, like Yuna, I mean, we've talked so much on this show about Yuna's like life as an immigrant and how we don't really get any of that background and like the cultural background that she has. And like,
01:19:15
Speaker
how that is just missing and it most likely would not be we were to like look at a person who has a very similar story to yuna because like i think lao something lao and i were talking about the other day was kind of in response to a lot of the like microaggressions that rachel reed has been doing against hudson williams and against shane as characters and that she's you know never really fully developed his like asianess or you know she talks about his autism like it's a the thing that she accidentally did and she wished she never did it or whatever she says and whatever shitty way she talks about it. But like, it doesn't matter that like Shane, like a lot of people are like, Shane isn't a real character. Like it doesn't matter what Rachel says about this, but like Shane real identities that real people have. And like, same with Yuna and all these other women that we've been talking about in this episode. And it's a disservice to not address those identities in ways, shapes, and or forms to just give them and then forget about them. Because media does not exist in a vacuum. Like everything that we do exists. comes from like we learn it from somewhere and we learn so much from the television we consume the books we read the movies we watch and so we can't just say oh I want my fun little fan object to not have any like real world implications in it but it's going to is the thing yeah and like in fandom people don't just get to walk into fandom and shed all their identities at the door that's not how this works And like, this is what I was trying to get people to see on the internet. and
01:20:59
Speaker
You don't get to just say, ignore the context when it's blaringly in your face. Right, exactly. You don't just get to say, okay, but this is like a fun little book where race doesn't matter.
01:21:10
Speaker
Like, no, I'm sorry. like That's not how things work. As we were saying with Ethan the other day, like when you say race doesn't matter, do you mean like a utopia where racism doesn't exist? Or do you mean white supremacy? Because sometimes you just mean like, I don't want to think about it. And don't come to me like, I'm ah i'm a person of color and I disagree. Like, you're entitled to your opinion.
01:21:38
Speaker
I won't tell you what you think. But I just want you to remember that just because you yourself are a person of color does not mean that you represent the opinion of every single person of color. Because I saw in a lot of the replies to Lauren and other people's comments on on on social media, some people like, well, actually, i am brown or I am black, and i disagree with this. And I'm like, okay, a good for you. But that that is not an argument. Like that doesn't mean that this doesn't harm people who are being mis ah misrepresented here. Like,
01:22:13
Speaker
The fact that you are able to shed your identities at the door when you click play, okay, that's something you can keep doing, that's your life. But a lot of other people are feeling attacked or i are getting hurt by these microaggressions and you are not the spokesperson of your skin tone.
01:22:37
Speaker
or
Race and Identity in Media
01:22:38
Speaker
ethnicity or neurodivergence diagnosis. Like you really need to like remember that no group is a monolith. And maybe if some people are saying that they're getting hurt, they're not saying that you are getting hurt. They're not speaking for you. They're speaking for themselves. And they're saying like, this is why we need to have these conversations in a way that is smart and compassionate. Because even if some people are not gonna mind it, some others will.
01:23:08
Speaker
Right. so I think that's like what it all comes back to is that systems of oppression hurt everyone no matter if you are directly impacted by it or not.
01:23:19
Speaker
Like misogyny hurts men too. Like white supremacy ultimately will hurt white folks too you know like if you exist outside of the very small very minute norm that these systems of oppressions uphold that you are still going to be hurt in some way shape or form by these systems it's like when magazines say that like oh women who like heated rivalry are just sex crazed or They love watching porn or like all of these things. But we're sitting here on a podcast that's now, I don't know, 15, 16 episodes deep. And we keep um coming up with things to talk about and how these identities are still being discussed in different ways and shapes and forms and how different people and their different identities are represented in this show and how they help each other through their journeys. And so I think to like bring it all back to kind of our last person for Yuna is like, unfortunately she is like very much the stereotype of the tiger mom.
01:24:22
Speaker
Like yeah when we first are introduced her to her and that's a very racist stereotype against each and women you know and so like there are ways that she obviously like sheds that stereotype which we especially see in like episodes five s and five and six but like i think yuna is i like i can't wait to see kind of where she goes next with her identities and with her story Because I think there's so much that we're missing just from even the way that like Yuna steps in as like Ilya's mother in the long game.
01:24:57
Speaker
You know how youah and David become Ilya's parents like that is so important to Ilya's growth in that book. Yeah. yeah The good thing is that I have full trust in Christina Chang. So I'm like, she's she's going to continue to bring new ones to all these stereotypes, no matter what is written on the script, no matter what is written on the books. She because I remember starting the series and I was like, who's this character I hated?
01:25:27
Speaker
I hate this stereotype of the like girl boss and momager. And then Because I was like, how, why in a lot of moments on the first two episodes? And then I fell in love with her. And I think that speaks to Chang's performance, definitely. And to the chemistry she has with David's actor and Shane's actor. She's amazing as like the the head of of this family and and the glue of the conversations that they have.
01:25:59
Speaker
And of course, episode the last episode, that conversation between yeah Yuna and Shane that that is added, that that was for me like the balance that we needed to bring to the character. So we could see that it's not that she has zero awareness of his son's feelings or any of that. She's like, I am so sorry that I didn't give you the space to come out.
01:26:27
Speaker
safely and I don't I won't look and the tiger mom comes out at the I don't I won't let you apologize like for a second like this is off the table like you feeling ashamed of this off the table ah we're not having that we are not having you hiding away we are not having you doing this to yourself And it's that's why so powerful, the scene, I think.
01:26:55
Speaker
It's not just like, im sorry I made you feel that you couldn't tell me this. It's also like the, no, no, no, no. no You're not apologizing. This is not how this is going to go. Yeah, I love that scene. I should rewatch it, especially after the shit my family pulled this weekend. But...
01:27:12
Speaker
tell that story later I'm sorry. but I'm so glad you brought up the chemistry because i think that the chemistry that Christina Chang brings to this portrayal gives Yuna so much more depth and her like little mannerisms and like micro expressions and like the tone and everything. I think she just builds out Yuna in the way of like how There's just so much personality. like I feel like I can like reach out and feel her through the screen. and There's so
Feminism and Societal Expectations
01:27:41
Speaker
much depth in her. And I think that, again, that brings yeah so much more dynamics to the show and how these men have, or again, have these strong women backing up behind them. And like, yeah, Shane for a while did feel like he was going to disappoint his mother, but she went right back and said, like like you said, I'm not going to let you... apologize for this because you have nothing to apologize for and again like the strong woman of this show I will never never like speak down upon like these like I idolize these women because they are so strong like that is like the people I want in my life that is the family that I want that is who I want to be for other people and I love that kind of representation and I think that yeah that chemistry really helps with that
01:28:19
Speaker
yeah I would reject the word strong. Like, I think that saying like women are strong is, it has become like just this way to talk about women that is very surface level and is very relative to men.
01:28:42
Speaker
I think and it's I think it is ah almost a detrimental way to describe women because it has so many ties to like like strength is an inherently tied to masculinity and it's not to say that women aren't strong I just think there are other ways that we can describe them I I don't think you're as specifically pointing out strength either Amanda I think you're pointing out like assuredness or like confidence or are like and in tune with the emotions, things like that.
01:29:18
Speaker
Lau? Yeah, I love that you're both bringing this up because this this is something that has been discussed a lot in the global self-feminisms because countries like Colombia, countries like Mexico, countries like Haiti, we are countries of single mothers. we're countries where countries were the ones that carry the weight of the whole society, are women, are left abandoned by men.
01:29:44
Speaker
And um Haitian folks have this proverb that has sparkled a lot of Haitian feminism commentary. They say, femme c'est potomitant, and ah the potomitant is the, the like,
01:29:59
Speaker
this structure column of the peristyle that is the Vodou temple. And so it's basically saying like the the women, femme, women are the backbone of society. And a lot of the Haitian feminists have said like, yes and no, like we want to be acknowledged.
01:30:19
Speaker
for the work that ah we do for this society. We want people to know that Haitian women have carried the country. Mexican women are the ones going to search for the lost kids in the... You know, in in the north of the country.
01:30:35
Speaker
You know, like, women here, Las Madres de Soacha, Las Tejedoras de Mampuján, they are the ones, like, even if you go to Argentina, Las Abuelas Plaza de Mayo, we are very important in history, like... we have We have been part of the resistance against the violence that has been imposed on us.
01:30:55
Speaker
yeah But there is this other side to the coin that is very bothering. that is the that This idea of resilience as the thing that is always brought up as the virtue of women. And strength always tends to mean, and Amanda was not using it that way, but I understand what Lauren was triggered by it. Because strength is always used to say, like, she will survive anything. And it doesn't leave space for us to critique and and and and and resist the violence itself. We have something here. We have ah a similar concept here that is el concepto de la berraquera. And we talk a lot about how, like, women here are some berracas. And when we say that, we mean, like, That woman has survived against all odds. And we applaud that without changing the society that has forced that woman to be that strong. you know That's yeah, that's what I'm trying to get at is. you To me is like, yes, she is strong, but why?
01:32:00
Speaker
rights Like what what what makes her, and and she's not a single mother, but she is the immigrant member of the family. yeah you know yeah She is the woman of color of the couple. She is bringing up um an undiagnosed autistic kid.
01:32:20
Speaker
who is Weishen in a very racist and homophobic environment. And I do think that that requires strength. yes What bothers me about like applauding it and leaving it at that is that we really need to check why she, why what why we have so little moments of Yuna being soft,
01:32:42
Speaker
Right. And I, I also think like saying, i think another reason why i think it's something that I don't like love when we use it to describe women as I feel like it inherently pits women against each other. like it inherently is underlying this idea that women have to go through something, which I mean, we all go through something, right? We are all victims of the patriarchy. But like, it implies to me that women have to be raped or have experienced domestic violence or have, you know, like,
01:33:17
Speaker
horrific things happen to them in order to be called strong in some shape or form. But like in reality, like the patriarchy is oppressive to all of us in some shape or form. And so even if you are, i think it's just like the word strength being associated with it Like it's, it's just in my head. It's like, it's like the stuff when like people are like, oh,
01:33:42
Speaker
It's something about, there's like something about balls. is Or like, you'll they'll be like, you're... It's like a common saying about balls that I cannot think of right now. And people will be like, well, why don't you say that about vaginas? Like, vaginas actually like birth people into the world. and It's like, why? Like, why are we always comparing women to men?
01:34:01
Speaker
Why? Stop it. Let them stand on their own. Let them stand on their two feet. Like... Do you mean like walls of steel? Yes! That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The term, like, the phrase balls of steel. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. and And there's a side of feminism in Latin America that bothers me so much because it's like the the glorification of both us as the strong ones. And I'm like, first of all, let's ah stop...
01:34:27
Speaker
focusing on genitals as the determinant of yes why vulvas are both are like vulvas and vaginas they're strong as hell because you have to push a baby out of it when you're pregnant and have one But at the same time, they're very fragile.
01:34:46
Speaker
They have a fragile pH. They can get ah hurt pretty easily. they can and and and And I think that that is a human body. Like, humans are both strong and fragile. yes And that is so important. And there is...
01:35:04
Speaker
something to be said about the fact that the like strongest quote unquote more powerful performance of k Christina Chang as Yuna is the moment where she's crying and breaking down and being sorry.
01:35:18
Speaker
Because we sometimes need those moments of emotional connection and fragility. That was a lot of English. Yeah, that was a lot of words. Those were a lot of words. Does anyone want to add anything else about the women of heated rivalry? I think um for Yuna, like in terms of the of her being described as strong, I think she presents that way because she has to. um Especially being the the immigrant in the in the relationship, in the marriage, and being a mother and a woman at that. Like this is her first time dealing with any of this as well. but
01:35:53
Speaker
I think for specifically for women of color, a lot of the time you have to present as strong as unproblematizing. You have to present yourself as an immovable wall because otherwise you will get pushed so many times and people will keep pushing you if they know you're going to move. So I think for Yuna, she knows she has to be that hard A lot of the time, even with Shane, sometimes she has to be that strong because she knows that if she isn't, then her son is going to be taken advantage of. Right. In this very toxic male-dominated sport, she she knows that if she if she loosens her grip on the reins even a little bit and lets someone else take over for even like a second, she knows that it's going to take Shane down a path that...
01:36:47
Speaker
she does not want for him and she knows he will not want for himself. Right. He has to be that strong. She has to, to step up for him in that way, not only as a mother, but as an Asian woman, as someone who knows like how awful the sport and the world and the media can be towards Asian people. She knows that like, if she, if she shows even a hint of weakness for her, for, or for Shane, then she knows that like, it's, it's, it's not going to end well. Yeah.
01:37:14
Speaker
Yes. And I think that's what I, um I had a hard time getting a read on her at first when I first started the show, because I didn't know if she was going to be too much of a momager.
01:37:26
Speaker
Like I didn't know she was going to be one of those moms who, who put her son in a sport so that she could feed off of his success or something. Like I could not get a read on her at first until they had that conversation. i forget which episode it is. I think it was like episode four or five where they have that conversation in the restaurant And Shane, and like they're they're all talking about like going on a family vacation. and she um And then Shane says, well, like you guys can just go because you know they don't need me there. They just want to know that the name is attached. And she says, like I don't want you to lie. That's not who you are. And I think at that point, that's when I start to like understand, like oh, she's not in this like for the sport or for the money or the fame or whatever. she She's in this for her son. She cares about her son. day she cares that he stays who he who he is she cares that he remembers who he is and stays true to himself and i think that's when i really started to understand and love her it's like oh she really does love her son yeah yeah and to reflect that back on their conversation later at uh in the cottage episode of i don't want you to lie that's not who you are and then this whole thing where she's like oh my god he's been lying to me for so long
01:38:30
Speaker
Yeah. And that's like, I thought that's what who I know that's he doesn't want to lie to the fact that he felt like he had to lie to me. It's yeah, once you like put on I want to like super slice like all of the unit scenes together and see how she evolves and like, understands Shane, because especially as Shane comes into his adulthood. um i think her view on him is like really developed.
01:38:53
Speaker
that's when she starts to like understand yeah yeah christina does a phenomenal job of playing that arc of yuna like yuna's character arc throughout the season that ends in that moment of emotional catharsis at at the cottage it's a beautiful it's a beautiful subtle like perform it's it's a really really strong performance i would love to see if someone's spliced together all of the yuna scenes and I would love to. Yes, for edits. Someone has done it on TikTok at some point. I'll try to find it. Yeah. For sure. Okay. Anything else we want to add to our conversation before we end this episode?
01:39:30
Speaker
This conversation of, and I was looking on it, but I don't think the video has any subtitles in English. There's this beautiful song that I, it just came back to me when we were talking about strength and about like, when I was mentioning Latin American women. And it's called, I'm going to write it down in the chat for the people here and then we can put it on the show notes. And you I think you can Google the the lyrics in English.
01:39:57
Speaker
It's called Si Me Matan by Silvana Estrada. She's from Mexico. Okay. She's a... wonderful artist. She is like very like outspoken about feminicide in Mexico and in the rest of Latin America. And I love that.
01:40:13
Speaker
I love
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
01:40:14
Speaker
the video. I would love to hear from people that watch the video without understanding the lyrics first to see what like what that communicates to you. Because I think that there's it's a story about resilience through softness. ah The music is very soft and the whole video is very soft and her voice is super soft. So it just came back to me. It's been years since the last time I i listened to it. my My cousin sent it to me.
01:40:39
Speaker
And think it's one of the most beautiful songs about Feminine Side that has been written in the last decade. So I leave it there just for folks who enjoy music in Spanish. There you go. That is not, it's not like don't expect any Maluma, any bad bunnies. Something different. Oh, how did you know? And how did you know? All right. Then if no one has anything else to add, thank you so much for being on the show today, y'all. We really appreciate it. Thank you for sharing all of your opinions. Haley, I can't wait for you to listen to this at two times speed. I don't know how you listen to me talk that fast because I already talk fast so at two times speed I cannot imagine like that's like Mike Schubert levels honestly sometimes Amanda I have to slow it down when you're talking Perfect. That is exactly what I do. I'm working on going too into it. And I know it's so bad. Sorry, but that's awesome. Two people, two podcasters that you cannot listen at 2.0, Mike Schubert and Amanda.
01:41:52
Speaker
No, I love that. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Since Rookie Season. Thank you to our guests for being on today. Please rate the podcast five stars and leave us a review. We always love reading your reviews. You also can follow us on our social media. We're on Twitter or X or on threads or on Instagram. And you always can send us emails or voice memos at SRSPod at ProtonMail.com. We will see you all next week when we are talking about romance novels.
01:42:37
Speaker
Sims' rookie season is created by Lauren, Lau, and Amanda. Our cover art is created by Lauren and Lau, and Amanda is our editor. Thanks for listening.