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Store Bought Dopamine & Other Neurodivergent Things
173 Plays5 days ago
This week, we're joined by two friends to talk about neurodivergence! Not only Shane but almost everyone in the universe quite frankly. Join us as we describe our experiences and break down the different brains of each character. Thanks for listening!
Follow us!
Threads & Instagram: @sincerookieseasonpod
Email: srspod@protonmail.com
Citations & Sources & Further Reading:
Non-verbal Learning Disability
Email Templates for Executive Dysfunction
Lauren Disability Studies Primer List:
Decarcerating Disability: Deinstitutionalization and Prison Abolition by Liat Ben-moshe
The Secret Life of Stories by Michael Berebue
Brilliant Imperfection: Grappling with Cure by Eli Clare
Enforcing Normalcy: Disability, Deafness, and the Body by Leonard Davis
Disability Media Studies, eds. Liz Ellcessor and Leonard Davis (Lauren is in vol. 2!)
Feminist, Queer, Crip by Alison Kafer
Claiming Disability by Simi Linton
Crip Theory by Robert McRuer
Sex and Disability, ed. Robert McRuer
Mad at School: Rhetorics of Mental Disability and Academic Life by Margaret Price
Killing the Black Body by Dorothy Roberts
Black Disability Politics by Sami Schalk
Bodyminds Reimagined: (Dis)ability, Race, and Gender in Black Women’s Speculative Fiction by Sami Schalk
Against Technoableism: Rethinking Who Needs Improvement by Ashley Shrew
Disability Theory by Tobin Siebers
Disability Intimacy: Essays on Love, Care, and Desire by Alice Wong
Disability Visibility: First-Person Stories from the Twenty-first Century by Alice Wong
Authoring Autism: On Rhetoric and Neurological Queerness by M. Remi Yergeau
Disability and Fandom by Katherine Anderson Howell (here’s my book review on it!)
Canadian Journal of Disability Studies special issue: Disability and/in/through Fandom
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Heated Rivalry Fan Companion
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Since Rookie Season. Well, the summer before. a heated rivalry fan companion podcast where your hosts, Amanda, Lau, and Lauren, break down the episodes from the Crave Canada television series, the Game Changers novels, and various media surrounding this fan phenomenon.
00:00:16
Speaker
Today, we're looking at the concept of neurodivergence and how it plays into our analysis of heated rivalry universe.
Neurodivergence in Heated Rivalry
00:00:24
Speaker
And we have not one, but two new guests.
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome back. I don't even know where we're at in the schedule. Like, this is coming out probably three weeks after we've recorded it, so. Sometime in early May. And you know what? Happy May. It's gonna be May.
00:00:49
Speaker
I hope you all celebrated International Workers Day. Yay. And you fought for a union and you burned down a corporation. ya Yes, we support all of that. All that good stuff. Today, we're talking about neurodivergence and we have two friends of the pod on JM and Kaylee. going to let them introduce, them both introduce themselves, talk a little bit about heat rivalry, how they got into it, why they think it's addictive. And then we'll get into the the real part of our discussion, the real part.
00:01:18
Speaker
So yeah, take it away. whenever Whoever wants to go first. Okay, I can go. Hi, I am JM, pronouns they, them.
00:01:29
Speaker
I am adjacent to Amanda and Lau because of Percy Jackson, obviously. So you also may have heard um my voice before. i sent in some fan mail. And thank you guys so much. I loved listening about to you guys yap about linguistics. That was so delightful. To kind of talk about how I got into heated rivalry and did you find it addictive? I am into a lot of BLs. Boy love, if you don't know.
00:01:56
Speaker
i watch them. I read them. And so I found heated rivalry just as I find most of my BLs, which is through a clip on TikTok. But what was really nice was that this time it was on an official platform and I wasn't just searching for it on Google for with English subtitles. So to me, what was very addictive was being able to watch like a similar type of story, but in my native language.
00:02:18
Speaker
So not having to like, do I understand this simile that's being made or having to read the subtitles while I'm looking at it. like So it's this type of story that I already really love, but ah like slightly more accessible to me. And the other thing, if you're familiar with BLs, unfortunately, a huge majority of them have non-consensual scenes. It's almost like a trait of the media.
00:02:41
Speaker
And so what i really did like was that heated rivalry was not that way. Like most BLs that I've watched, their first like gay interaction is like one of them gets super drunk and then they're like inhibitions are lowered and they're like, let's do something.
00:02:54
Speaker
And I like that this was informed consent. They're doing stuff together intentionally. No one is inebriated. So that was very addictive to me. Yeah. Heck yeah. And also to clarify for our listeners, boy love is just like what the actual physical translation of the word yaoi means. It is not, it is not like underage, it can be underage content, but like it is not overarchingly underage content. It is specifically like just male-male relationships. It's just a tradition that has started out of, it's Japanese culture, correct? Yeah.
00:03:30
Speaker
Jam? Yes, yes. I watched a ton of Thai BLs, but it has now it has now spread to other countries. But yes, I do believe the origins is Japan. I agree. Yeah, and it's like um it's really big in Brazil, too.
00:03:44
Speaker
didn't know that. But yeah, just to just to have a clarification that no thank you yeah and and people who enjoy BLs are not pedophiles. Let's just have that. That's like a cultural difference.
00:03:55
Speaker
For sure. All right. Well, thank you for that lovely introduction. Kaylee, would you like to go then next? Yeah. um I'm Kaylee. She, her. I got into heated rivalry from, I had just started getting into like MM romance books. And I just think straight romance books are cringe a lot of the time and I don't enjoy that. So I don't read them.
00:04:18
Speaker
um And i started reading yeah a lot of gay romance, um MM romance, and then I was done with them and I was like, hmm, what to read next? And my algorithm that I built brick by brick served me a video to show me what to read next. and and this book called Heated Rivalry was on there and I had never heard of it, but every single commenter had.
00:04:38
Speaker
So I went and borrowed it on Libby before like the craze happened, but just by like two, three weeks. I learned about this book two or three weeks before the show came out.
00:04:49
Speaker
I didn't have to wait for this at all. It was beautiful. And I read all of them right before the show came out. And then I went into our little Percy Jackson themed Discord server with Amanda, Lauda, and JM. And I was like, hey guys, have you heard of Hater Rivalry?
00:05:06
Speaker
No one exactly. you have a minute to talk about? Do you have a minute to talk about our Lord and Savior Rachel Reid? And then then our Discord for Heter Rafferty was born. I take great pride in introducing many people to this. No one's no one's being introduced to this by me anymore. But back in November, i yes i was discovering things.
00:05:29
Speaker
And I read all of them. All of her whole... Okay, listen. i like You read them out of order too! oh okay. I read them two... Heated Rivalry, the long game. I read them two, six, four, five, one, three. And then I reread... I reread Heated Rivalry but like while I was watching this show. but then I reread them all in order.
00:05:51
Speaker
I kind of... I kind of like Rachel Reid maxed and I was a little over it by the end, but oh i was I was still rewatching the show. I wasn't that over it. Imagine having a hyper fixation.
Exploring Neurodivergence: Personal Experiences
00:06:02
Speaker
Oh, you speaking of neurodivergence, real? hero So yeah, this is actually the famous Kaylee that we have been mentioning yeah ever ever since we started because this podcast would not exist if Kaylee hadn't done this arduous job of getting us all like into this from the Percy Jackson Discord to the heated rivalry Discord that we created. and then that's how Lauren enters the picture. So Thank you, Kaylee.
00:06:32
Speaker
And everyone here that has been listening to our previous episodes knows that I followed Kaylee's order of reading. and I am really thankful for that.
00:06:44
Speaker
i think I think the first two are interchangeable. I really liked the surprise of reading Heat of Revelry and being like, Scott did what? I did go back in the Discord, in the Sweet Brain Discord, and I have your message from November 15th at 2.30 in the morning. Well, 2.30 in my time, so it's 11.30. From the archives. Oh, okay, so it's 11.30 here. It was respectable in LA.
00:07:03
Speaker
Really respectable for the for the West Coast. It says, so I read Heated Rivalry, just got ambushed with a trailer on IG. It's going to be a show. Next message. But dot dot dot, just in Canada? question mark I don't know. This is all new information to me. I finished that book yesterday. And Jacqueline, one our friends, said just right out in Canada, it unfortunately. So yeah, that's like how the first mention of in the CineDream server and then it kind of I think spiraled from there.
00:07:28
Speaker
And within like half a week, HBO was like, nope, we got it. And what a roller coaster that week was. What a roller coaster. Oh, Lau had asked you or had replied you for a VPN stuff. So anyway, that's.
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, I got my VPN last year with code Dan and Phil. failed at high speeds with this show really quickly. Hold on. I would like to sail the high seas with heated rivalry very, very briefly. I sailed them all right. a love sailing the high seas. It's my favorite. I was season pirate.
00:08:03
Speaker
yeah Did we cover why we think it's so addictive? Oh, I guess I was, um, it's part like, just straight romance is cringe and it can be like seem predatory sometimes. So for me, it's more that like gay romance is more addictive because there's just all these like joyous moments and I'm not scared.
00:08:22
Speaker
I'm not scared. And you know what? And you know what? Dark romance readers, I want to talk to you. want talk to you really bad. Okay, but that's on purpose. When it's just like some straight man in a romance book and the cover's all like illustrated pink and pretty.
00:08:39
Speaker
Like, I don't want to be like attacking. And you like attack him with a knife. And I'm like, I would like to have a conversation. And then it says he growls. And I'm like, I don't know. don't know. Why are we doing that? I don't know. just, bad, bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad. But this is great. So we have how our cultures, our lives have all meshed. And I really, would like to apologize very quickly everyone who's listening to this podcast because you are listening to five neurodivergent people. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna have this conversation and I'd just like to apologize right now, just at the top. I think they know what they're getting
00:09:24
Speaker
I think- Five? better. They better. Five. It's five of us now. We're having this conversation and you know what? Actually, that's a great segue. Wow, tell them what neurodivergence is. You're just calculating.
00:09:40
Speaker
Adios mio. Okay. So neurodivergence is a term used to refer to everything that is out of the norm of how the brain works.
00:09:52
Speaker
according to the norm should work. So anything from me not knowing how to count that we are five people in this conversation to people um struggling with depression, anxiety. There's a lot of diagnosis that fall into neurodivergence, but it basically means that you have a brain that works in a way that is deemed different or divergent from the norm. It is very important because I have to deal this with this at work all the time.
00:10:25
Speaker
That some of my colleagues would tell my students, like my students would say, like, I have ADHD and my colleagues will say, don't we all? And all of that. And neurodivergence is different from neurodiversity. Neurodiversity is a general concept that tells us humans function in a diverse way, right? So every brain is different and we are a diverse species even in our like neurological aspect, right?
00:10:57
Speaker
Neurodivergence refers to being outside the norm, right? So the world has set into place a set of like a list of norms and ways in which you should be thinking and you should be functioning. And we all in this conversation fall out of that norm in some way.
00:11:18
Speaker
So it is considered sometimes a disability. Some people prefer not to call it a disability. But ah just like with disabilities that are mobile or sensorial, it's very important that you know that is it's the outside word world what makes it disabling.
00:11:39
Speaker
right what is making my lack of arithmetic arithmetic brain so difficult is that nothing around me was built to accommodate my difficulty right and so i was the one crying in every single math exam because nobody knew how to accommodate to my way of doing math. And sometimes it's a matter of accommodating a different path and sometimes it's a matter of accommodating expectations. So we're going to talk about all of that, but i really I really wanted to be very clear about the difference between neurodivergence, being outside the norm, and neurodiversity. We're all different and we all have like our own spice.
00:12:26
Speaker
so And also, yeah to like add on to that, neurodivergence distinct differences in like neurotransmitter like regulations in your brain and yeah like how your brain is made up. ADHD is like associated with like dopamine transponder dysfunction, which means there's just less dopamine in your brain, which then impacts things like your reward your pathways, your motivation, your attention and control. etc. And like there is some kind of chemical difference in neurodivergent people's brains as compared to what we'll call neurotypical.
00:13:06
Speaker
So that is like a very distinct difference that like, yes, neurodivergence is impacted in some ways by capitalism, as Lau just pointed out, but it's also impacted in differences in brain chemistry as well.
00:13:19
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. So Okay, great. Do we want to just jump in and talk about neurodiversity among all of us? Yeah, that would be cool. Okay. And that way we can see how diverse our group is because I think we have very different brains, which I find fascinating. I have a very weird diagnosis that is not yet in the DSM because there's like a fight about how it should be called. And the people that coined NVLD, so nonverbal learning disorder or disability, depending on who you ask, they're trying to
00:13:57
Speaker
change it to something that explains how it affects your spatial and arithmetic thought because they think that the non-verbal part is misguiding.
00:14:09
Speaker
But it's basically... So I got diagnosed at 29 years old. And why is that? As you most of you know, my mom is a child development specialist. But as you well know, you should not be treated by family.
00:14:25
Speaker
And ah my mom, pretty we're pretty sure sure that she shares some of my diagnosis. So for her, my little quirks were how things are, you know, like she works in the same way. Like the day I told her and this is how I started like noticing that something was like really wrong when I was an adult. Because as ah as a kid and a teen, I was just categorized as this very like language nerd that loved books but hated math. You know, like the way we tried our students. So nobody was surprised that I was struggling with math. I was struggling with physics and chemistry and sometimes biology, depending on the subject. And I remember crying over my math homework of frustration because I couldn't get the right answer. And I would, a lot of times I will also cry during the exams. I had a tutor for chemistry and still I was like failing my exams. And at the end of my high school path, I ended up like passing all my science classes just because I was a good student, you know, like I was turning in my work, I was going to class, I was participating. So that gave me points, but I was failing every single exam. And nobody thought that it was like a thing. Then I like Kaylee, I did music my whole life. I studied music my whole life. ah And I was having a lot of issues with rhythm, reading all that was rhythm, coordinating two hands, even though I played the cello and the guitar. It was like,
00:16:04
Speaker
I was slower than the rest. I could do it, but it would it it took me like three times the effort than everyone else. Again, no one batted an A. Everyone was like, oh yeah, that's just Laura and her quirks.
00:16:18
Speaker
But then I become an adult and I have to manage money. And so living in the US, quite easy because dollars are like single digits or two digits. But Colombia has such a devaluated currency that you are having to juggle with many zeros in every single sum that you're. So I started making mistakes when I was transferring money in Colombian pesos. And sometimes it was not terrible because it was to family and friends, but sometimes it could be very bad. And I remember telling my mom about it, like I mistakenly like double or triple the amount because I put a zero where it shouldn't be. And she was like, yeah, that happens to me all the time.
00:17:05
Speaker
was like, girl. excuse me And she was like, yeah, that's normal. And my husband was like, no, no, that's not normal. So I pushed and pushed to get a diagnosis. I was living the US. My psychiatrist there was like, it is very expensive to get a diagnosis here for MVLD or for I wanted to get a diagnosis for dyscalculia. And so she was like, it's better if you do it in your home country when you go visit.
00:17:34
Speaker
And when I moved back into inc to Colombia, my mom was like, I have a friend who does this diagnosis and she will give us a special price because this is super pricey to guess to get us like an exam. And I finally did like two full mornings of tests.
00:17:52
Speaker
I was exhausted by the end of it. And i was like, When I was super stressed because I had to wait a week to get the results and I was like, maybe I'm faking this. Maybe like I was getting neurodivergent imposter syndrome. And when I got to the office, the lady was like, not only you do have dyscalculia, you like clearly have no idea how arithmetic works.
00:18:18
Speaker
But I have a theory that you have something called NVLD. So NVLD basically seems to originate in a failure like or or weakness of your right hemisphere. So your right hemisphere that usually manages math space.
00:18:39
Speaker
sensory processing, emotions, a lot of those. My right side of the brain is like lazy, basically. He struggles.
00:18:49
Speaker
And apparently what I did as a human to survive is that my left side decided to do the work. Yeah. for both and so i became very strong in languages in verbal communication so i could compensate and function
Medication and Self-Identification in Neurodivergence
00:19:06
Speaker
as a member of our society right so i remember i learned all the multiplication tables in french because my math class was in french and i learned them using rhymes but i couldn't like abstract the quantities I just knew how to do it in order. So if you ask me a multiplication in the wrong order, i won't get it. But in French, I will get in the right order. So I was making numbers.
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah, I made it a ah language thing. And that's how that's how I survived. And so by the time I got my diagnosis, my IQ for like verbal and language stuff was super high.
00:19:51
Speaker
And my IQ for math, arithmetic, everything that is nonverbal, like social cues, sensory processing was super low. Yeah. So she was like, yeah, I think you have this. And she was like, wow.
00:20:07
Speaker
This is why you have a hard time socializing. This is why you hate parties. This is why you struggle with very noisy places. This is why you bump into everything at your house. This is why you struggle with changes and transitions. And she told me that this before they they coined the term for this diagnosis, it was...
00:20:32
Speaker
Just put into the basket of the autism spectrum. Especially what before was called Asperger's. yeah But the thing was that ah it didn't match because people with NVLD are not good at math. So it was like, oh, yeah, we're just going to put you guys right there. But this is not exactly that But I share a lot of the traits of a lot of people on the spectrum.
00:20:58
Speaker
Socially, sensor, like with my senses, like I get sensory overload overload. I have foods that I won't eat because the texture or the color makes me puke. So yeah.
00:21:10
Speaker
And that was when I was ah an adult. And it was really hard on my mother. She felt really guilty. that I had been broad docking this diagnosis for years, made me very happy.
00:21:24
Speaker
I was super happy. I was like, I feel like an IKEA furniture that finally got the manual of of instructors to assemble it. I finally know why. And before the diagnosis, I thought that dyscalculia will be just like one added issue of all like my quirks and issues. Like in top of having issues with eating like white foods and stuff that that are like weird textured.
00:21:51
Speaker
On top of being antisocial, I thought at that time, in top of being like very like sensible emotionally and and having meltdowns. Now, on top of that, you add dyscalculia. And the neuropsychologist was like, no no, no, no, no. This is all the same thing.
00:22:09
Speaker
like This is all part of one thing that you have. And suddenly everything made sense. And after that, I was able to ask for accommodations at work, for accommodations my home. I am better at advocating for myself because I can explain what's going on. So it really did help, even though it was late. And of course, there's like an emotional baggage of getting diagnosed so late in life. It doesn't feel like it's fair, but I'm overall really happy and proud of my diagnosis.
00:22:41
Speaker
For sure. JM, do you want to go next because you're next on our list? Thank you for sharing, Lau, by the way. That was... Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that was awesome. That was so interesting about the zeros. I don't think I have dyscalculia, but zeros are crazy. And when you add them to the end of the number, it's so... I lose it. I don't know. Is it a thousand? Is it a million? so Sometimes my students ask me for help on their math. I'm like, a girl, I don't know. You guys use commas like we use dots. Yeah. And yeah use dots as we use commas. So I was i was going crazy. Yeah, for sure.
00:23:14
Speaker
you're real Yeah, so i think Amanda and Lau and Kaylee have heard this story. I'm going to abridge it slightly for our audience's sake, but i i feel it's peer reviewed by non-medical professionals that I'm definitely neurodivergent, right?
00:23:31
Speaker
Listeners, tell us what you think. If there's any psychologists listening, you know let me know. Kaylee? Lawrence Hayley? Hayley? This year, I think in college, I was interested in getting a diagnosis for accommodations reasons, but I kind of took too long. And then I started seeing a therapist and about a month in, I was like, hey, so what about that diagnosis? And she's like, oh, I don't have a license to be able to do that. Sorry. was like, that's really great. Because I did mention in our first session that that's what I was hoping for. But thank you for letting me know now. So then it was like my senior year and I was like, what's the point? I kind of was like, we all know it's okay. I don't need anything anything official. I kind of decided recently, like, yeah, I do kind of want something official. I feel like knowing what the flavor is, like Lau said, it could be helpful to know exactly like what the problem, not problem, but like how my brain works and what is helpful for me would be nice. So i did ask a new therapist. And she was like, oh yeah, I am certified. We can definitely do that. But how she screened me was literally for ADHD. She sent me a 20 question questionnaire that I did online.
00:24:37
Speaker
And then as soon as we started our session, she was like, yeah, you have ADHD. And was like, oh, I agree. But what? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's how I got diagnosed. That's how I got diagnosed. It's okay. Wow. and And then she read the rads are to me and had me verbally respond.
00:24:52
Speaker
And I failed my autism test. And apparently I'm not autistic according to her. um Interesting. for our For our listeners, Amanda just looked so. still have a hideaway face.
00:25:06
Speaker
and i was And I was too a little bit. um I think it's because I'm an extrovert and the radzor doesn't like that. Yeah, same, same. Jam, same. that's I would probably fail it too. yeah So we're looking maybe for a second opinion and then that therapist did some other weird stuff and now I'm not seeing her anymore. Really? agree.
00:25:27
Speaker
ah story Okay, amazing. I'll jump in next. I have the whole alphabet of diagnoses. Growing up, my mom my mom was a college professor when I was growing up. And one summer we lived at like a different college campus in a different part of Indiana because my mom was taking classes down there. and She had friends who were running research studies. And so my brother and I went and took IQ tests, which I have a whole thing about. We're not gonna get into it. But anyways, ah basically the person went to my mom and was like, hey, I think Lauren is ADHD because like, the things that they were doing during this during this this test, they're not normal. But it was also at the point where like everybody was getting diagnosed with ADHD and they were putting like all of these young kids on Ritalin and had like no idea, like longevity studies about ADHD, ADD. And so parents were like, we're not going do that. And so I kind of went like my whole life kind of knowing this. But when COVID happened, I was living in Florida. It was like my first year down in Florida and I was super depressed. And so I started going to therapy and I basically got diagnosed with ADD. So attention deficit disorder. i don't have the hyperactive. proportion to it. Depression and generalized anxiety disorder. Later on, we added complex PTSD to that, to that diagnosis. So, you know, I'm currently in therapy, currently medicated. I am very much, have the privilege to do all of that because I have health insurance in the United States, which is wild. And i like my own like kind of diagnosis that I'm kind of giving myself, or I think I have an auditory processing disorder, as well as like a sensory avoidant processing disorder. And I believe I am somewhere on the aphantasia spectrum, which means you can't picture things in your head. I can picture something. sounds so cool because it sounds like phantom stuff. Yes, it's like I can picture stuff that I've seen before, but I can't picture anything that I haven't seen.
00:27:27
Speaker
e Like, and I can't make shit up in my head, which is... Yeah, respond I think something to note here also is as we were talking about this, like all like neurodivergence is a spectrum. And so like, you'll be on like some parts of it. Like i I can recognize when I do things like stimming or I have like sensory issues or I have like auditory processing issues, how I could fit into an autism diagnosis. But like, I've never had like the social anxiety that is like,
00:27:58
Speaker
similar with like autism, like that is naturally kind of a part of an eye to autism diagnosis. So like, I can see myself have like many autistic traits, but I technically, I don't think I fall under, I don't think I would ever get diagnosed for it because I am like very good in social situations. And I am like,
00:28:17
Speaker
very extroverted, like you were just saying, JM. So yeah, those are kind of all of my diagnoses. And I think like getting those diagnoses while I was doing a PhD helped me kind of, it like pushed me into studying disability studies as like a, within like a function of fan studies. And so actually next month,
00:28:38
Speaker
So in June 2026, I have a special issue that I've edited with the Transformative Works and Cultures, which is under the Organization for Transformative Formative Works, which is where AO3 is housed. Transformative Works and Cultures is the academic journal portion of Organization for Transformative Works. And I've edited a special issue on disability and fandom. And it comes out next month. And it's going to be open access so anyone can read it. And you can look at all of the different ways that people interact with disability. There's stuff about like madness studies. There's stuff about podfix. It's a really great issue. We've spent a really long time on it. I have demographic data in there. So yeah, it's gonna you can definitely read it. It'll be awesome and if you do read it and you want to talk to me about it. And I am now going to hand this over to Kaylee, our other guest.
00:29:26
Speaker
Hi, I have ADHD. That's a big one. i never really got a diagnosis when I was a kid or anything. I wasn't really looking for one. I i kind of did fine before college, and and then I was an adult, and it got so much worse, which is a ah common factor in, like, inattentive type of ADHD, which is also more common in female DNA, which is the less studied one because...
00:29:53
Speaker
why would Why would science pay attention to ah historically women? and so a lot of them yeah A lot of the symptoms for that type are just understudied, but it just feels so much worse when you're an adult oftentimes. And so I never really needed... like I was fine. i I got bad grades, but that's because I put myself in AP classes when I really like had no need to do that.
00:30:15
Speaker
Oh my god, same Kaylee. Yeah. And well, but here's the thing. You're like, I'm a musician. I was gonna be a music major the whole time. why was I doing this? So there's that I have ADHD. And I also when I was doing my teacher credential, I didn't end up finishing because I got chronically ill and I don't think I could do that 10 hour a day thing. I did like this pamphlet on ADHD for my like adolescent ed psych class. And she did use it as an example in the next semester. So there's that. But I did all this kind of mini research on all the different types.
00:30:50
Speaker
And I discovered a lot about myself, but there's all these different types. And then there's mixed type with like inattentive and hyperactive. And the medical term used is like, they don't do ADD anymore, I guess, which is what I always called mine I don't think it really matters. It just, you need to know your symptoms and your doctor needs to be cooperative, I guess. Speaking of ADHD, what was I saying?
00:31:12
Speaker
I also, I can't do like the, the, the stimulant medication. It makes me freak out, which is where my anxiety comes in. That's something also that I have. I tried Vyvanse and I unplugged the whole apartment because otherwise it might start a fire if I left to things plugged I was so paranoid on Vyvanse. Did not work. Ended up starting a narcolepsy medication.
00:31:34
Speaker
It actually just helps my chronic fatigue, which is so crazy and weird. Like, that's not what it's for. But kind of run out ADHD just in the sense that... The ah traditional medications don't work for me and I also have the chronic fatigue which which makes it a lot harder, I must say. But there's also the social aspects you know of of ADHD where there's a lot of similarities to the autism spectrum of like I'm most definitely an introvert. <unk>s There's no question about that. I have the social anxiety. i have the social cues where You know, it builds up over time. Like, I'm i'm in my mid-20s. I've i figured things out. But that's all in the masking, you know? I've figured things out like a little equation. I am worse with words and better with numbers, Laura. So, i am opposite. I don't have a... Yeah. i I didn't actually read for so long. When I got back into Percy Jackson, that was me reading after a decade. Because I couldn't. I simply could not. And then, you know, and then there was these guys. These these boys. Yeah. He did reverie.
00:32:38
Speaker
But i I really had to audiobook my way back into reading while driving. There are just certain things I feel like my brain cannot do, and there's different flavors of ADHD everyone has. It's not just those three big types, and like i can't i can't look at a subtitle and watch something at the same time, because now I'm distracted.
00:32:57
Speaker
Now I'm reading, but I'm not a fast reader, so I just missed everything. So yeah, there's my ADHD spiel. Awesome. amazing Thank you. That was so insightful. Since I'm going last, I have small responses to some of you that I wanted to include. JM, umm too smart. That reminds me of failing out of your autism test. I have a very close friend of mine who was seeking an autism and or ADHD diagnosis, and he he was like working with someone. and They tried to give him an IQ test to see where he would fall out and they said that he was too smart to be autistic or too smart with ADHD and I think that that's a very yeah relevant thing that we'll talk about is like, and like a lot of what Lau said as well, like there's a lot of stigma or a lot of like stereotypes that I feel like medical professionals professionals are looking for in this, which is tied into like the history that I wanted to, I hope some of our listeners are aware of. and And I think we've briefly touched on if the like what Kaylee said of like historically, like people are like, oh, they have historically medical professionals have focused on like young white boys, basically, or young white men. for the kinds of these neurodivergences and so to have now like non-white people or non-men like women and girls and non-binary people all these different identities coming through also referencing our our discussion of intersectionality here seeing how it presents in different people and different identities I think that that's very important and why we're going talk about later matters Also, I wanted to shout out Lauren's like auditory processing thing. My therapist has, when I've talked to my therapist about it before, which I'll get into my stuff in a minute, when I've brought up auditory processing, she's mentioned it as part of like autism, ADHD, neurodivergences. It is a symptom of it or like a co- I don't know if comorbidity is the right word. So about me, I'm pretty sure i have autism in the way that i went to college and did some digging, or actually was high school, and I found the Radzar test online, asked my mom about it, and I was like, hey, like like did you ever get me like tested for anything as a kid that like I don't really know about? And she said that when I had gone to private school, the people there, like their parents were doctors and whatever, rich people, lawyers, whatever. And there were these like school things as like the private school is like a small community. They would do things together with the students, with the kids. And apparently some of the doctor parents had said to my parents, hey, maybe you should get Amanda tested for autism with the way that Amanda's playing in the sand and like interacts with these kids. No,
Neurodivergence in Heated Rivalry Characters
00:35:19
Speaker
They didn't want to do that. My mom later told me that she didn't want me to grow up with labels or have that somehow be attached to me in a negative way later on as like a disability or as like just like as some sort of like have me in a list somewhere, have me like noted somewhere for something.
00:35:35
Speaker
Now, as we turn to a more fascist society, i weigh pros and cons of that because cons growing up. I didn't know this. I didn't know this until I was like 17, 18, 19. And so I just struggled for the past 15 years with my life like this, not knowing that I could have had guidance on how to talk to people or like. why my emotions were the way they were or why like wearing certain clothes made me feel so bad and I couldn't express that. I didn't have the knowledge for that because I didn't know any other way. And so I mean, but now, like I said, fascist society being you know diagnosed is a whole different thing. so you know, pros and cons to that. I have I do have diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder. and depression, um recently seeking medication for that. That's like a whole thing that I'd love to talk about. ADHD I go back and forth i went forth with if I have or not. I'm really definitely, I lean more towards I definitely have autism. ADHD I would probably seek testing for, but It seems likely, but um the way that like flags, certain flags come up for ADHD, I feel like I don't necessarily trigger, which is why for me, I feel like I lean more towards definite autism, but that is, you know, maybe I will eventually seek a diagnosis in the future, but right now,
00:36:46
Speaker
I feel like I am getting to a point where I know myself and how my brain works and navigating my life that way and like leaning more into like my autism and anxiety side of my life like trying to figure out how to navigate that is like that's kind of where I'm at right now as I am so I started what did I I started Zoloft last week so we're making progress but yes that's my uh I believe those are all of my things I have to say Yay, Zoloft crew. Yeah. Yay!
00:37:13
Speaker
We love medications. Yes. How many of you are on Zoloft? Is every host? No, I'm on Lexapro. Lexapro is my daddy. Two thirds of this podcast stars are so low. Yeah. And I'm also on Adderall. I used to be on Stratera, which was the non-stimulant ADHD drug. And I hated her. Please hold.
00:37:35
Speaker
Please hold. oh my God, Stratera! Yeah, it makes me so nauseous. I'm trying to get back into it. Yeah, it's it's so bad. um And then I'm on hydroxyzine when I get a panic attack. Because I forgot to mention Alzheimer's.
00:37:49
Speaker
I have a panic disorder. Hmm. Yeah, and I think that that's a really relevant thing to bring up is is meds and different things. Because I have friends who like were on like the Ritalin thing, or even Vyvanse growing up, they were forced on it. And now they're dealing with the consequences of that later on in adulthood. And it's like, do you need medication? But is that to serve the function of like working under capitalism or like to feel yourself? like I think medication is a ah relevant conversation. but we also Yeah, it's definitely an interesting topic for sure. And I think there are I think like for some people, medication is not the answer and that's totally fine. Like for some people, it's just going to therapy. For some people, therapy doesn't work and medication works. Like there are so many different ways for you to learn how to function in this world that is not made for you. And like,
00:38:39
Speaker
The important thing I think kind of overall to note is that like, like there is so much privilege in being diagnosed and also like in having medication and going to therapy and being able to like afford all of those things and do all of those things. And like that does not like negate any feelings that you might have or any symptoms that you might have. of neurodivergency or being neurodivergent like you do not need to be diagnosed in order to be neurodivergent or to identify as neurodivergent if you like are like i really identify with all of these symptoms of add or adhd you can say that like that's totally fine like your diagnosis or your undiagnosis is still valid and like we don't want to say that like that's not valid because there is such privilege especially in the united states associated with things that are in the health care realm and also like things like what amanda is talking is like you know there is just not research done on how these drugs affect women people of color non-binary people of trans people like how they interact and the person that you can ask to help you with that is going to be your psychiatrist or whoever prescribes you medication don't look for help on reddit about your medications go to a doctor please Which does not have to be a psychiatrist. It can be like different types of nurses like PRN and like different things like that. Yeah, it can be it can be your like regular doctor can give you depression. Yeah, your PCP.
00:40:10
Speaker
Yeah, it depends on the country, though. I think. out here it works Yeah, it's stuff like Soloft, they can give you like regular doctors, but stronger stuff. I think it's only psychiatrists. Also, what Lau had mentioned about the monetary barrier, that's another you know huge barrier for diagnosis. And I think it also connects to what Amanda was saying about like, oh, doing well in school. So like, I don't know, like, is ADHD on the table? I feel like where a lot of people who are diagnosed young are discovering that they're neurodivergent is in the school system. Their teacher is maybe saying, hey, parents, can you take them to such and such place and like, just see what's going on here?
00:40:52
Speaker
And teachers are, you know, if you're maybe having a hard time like emotionally or socially, but your grades are straight A's, the teacher probably is not going to be making that recommendation to your parents.
00:41:07
Speaker
And I feel like that's what happens with a lot of later diagnosed people is they don't realize until they're like an active burnout. Yeah. that there is a problem because it's how you've been living your life this whole time and you're like, well, I was fine in high school. i don't know what's happening. It's like you've been burning the midnight oil. Right, exactly. Exactly. That's something I wanted to say how this how neurodivergence usually is like a gateway to anxiety and depression, not because her brains are more predisposed to it necessarily like and and and and and anxiety and depressions are ah forms of neurodivergence. But what my neuropsychiatrist explained is because i came into her office with an an anxiety and depression diagnosis already, and I was already taking so long for that. And she was like, this makes a lot of sense because
00:42:00
Speaker
masking is exhausting and having to comply to rules that make no sense to you that do not accommodate you is exhausting and she told me like what you're gonna have to face now is the feeling of this is very unfair because i had to deal with all of this for so many years and nobody was helping me everyone was just like labeling me as and and in my personal case like people were labeling me as Too sensitive, too dramatic, picky eater, um very boring or unsocial, you know, like you're not like fun.
00:42:37
Speaker
People were saying like, I, I, I over, like you overthink too much. Why do you like... always like start drama i basically couldn't understand what was going on that's why ah and so all of those obstacles and all that you have to face socially and academically and like going out of my home, like some some days see if I'm exhausted, I feel attacked by the noise, by the lights, by the smell. You know, like sometimes it's violent to my body.
00:43:11
Speaker
So it makes sense that that people who are constantly having to regulate themselves and like try to read and they have like their brains on override because they're trying to translate from people to my brain it makes sense that we end up having anxiety and depression as a result of it and it is part of like the grief of getting a late diagnose or never getting diagnosed Because it it's it's like playing it's playing your life in the hard mode without knowing that there's an easy mode. And it's being the IKEA furniture that has a manual, but you don't have access to the manual until later in life after you have spent hours on it.
00:43:58
Speaker
you know so this is very important this is something that really helped me navigate the grief when she told me like it makes sense that you come to me with this already because you have to do stuff that are exhausting and you must be exhausted and what i loved about this doctor and i don't think we have that as easy like jm was telling us this therapist was like not very cool mine i love that as she was describing her conclusion to the tests she was asking me does this make sense to you does this resonate with you and i was like thank you for including me in the process of diagnosing me
00:44:43
Speaker
because nobody knows it better than I do. And a lot of people in my life were like, I don't believe this is true. Like, this is probably an exaggeration. Like, people love to, like, doctors love to diagnose. And I was like, yeah, you don't think I have this because I've been masking my whole life and you don't have to be inside my brain struggling to get by every single day. And now I can just say, like, you know what? I need something different. You know what? I'm not doing this. So yeah, it's if you're if you rest and like if your life resonates with this, know that the anxiety and depression probably comes from the difficulty of living with this without any help or support.
00:45:28
Speaker
Thank you for that, Lau. I think that that's very helpful. And I think once we start applying that to heated rivalry, I think that's a ah very important topic we'll come back to. Yeah, for sure. well Yeah, we have this, I think was, I think learning a little bit about everybody's kind of diagnoses and non-diagnoses and all of this good stuff, I think is Really great. Lau and I, I'm sure, and I'm sure if Jam, Kaylee, Amanda, ah you all have anything talking about representation of neurodivergence or you think there's really good books or podcasts or whatever, please let us know. We will put everything in the show notes. Amanda made a really beautiful doc last week and I'm sure it will kind of be very similar and have lots of really great things in there. I know I'm already putting... a disability studies primer list in there for you all. So if you want to get into disability studies and you think it's really interesting, I have tons of books for you. I know Lau's got some really great stuff as well. So I want to make sure that we go over some really quick vocabulary before we get into our heated rivalry discussion. and those are there's like some things that we're going to talk about that you might have never heard of um that are specifically related to neurodivergence so when we talk about things like self-soothing or hyperfixation those are parts of neurodivergence if i say something like over if we talk about stimulation over stimulation or i'll also say over stimmy is like definitely a part of nerd versions um there's things like masking and masking is basically like performing in a way so that your disability is not overt or you are like doing something as a way to not let other people know that you have a disability. It falls under, um there's a book called Crip Theory by Robert McBruer and he has this term which is called, oh God, what is it called? ah I use it all the time. What is the, it's called compulsory able-bodiedness, which,
00:47:24
Speaker
drawn from um our discussions we were talking about queerness, where we were talking about compulsory heteronormativity, which is that people will do things in order to up appear straight, even though they are queer and that like the world is forcing people to be straight. Compulsory able-bodiedness is this idea that like disabled folks have to perform as able-bodied unless they like, unless they want to be labeled as morally failing and like unable to function in society. and therefore needing institutionalization or whatever in order to correct their disability. This is also seen in things where, I mean, there's so many really gross and disgusting ways that we talk about disability in our society, especially like recently at Northwestern, a student died of cancer. And a lot of people were saying like, oh, this student lost his battle to cancer.
00:48:18
Speaker
Like, can we, that's so gross to talk about it that way. Like, can we not talk about disabled people? Like, they have to, like, be doing something, like, way out of the norm in order to be, like, worth our time or our effort or our understanding of them. Like...
00:48:35
Speaker
it Anyways, but right before we launch into talking about neurodivergent-indicated rivalry, I just want to know, we talked about hyperfixations a little bit. What's everybody's current hyperfixation? Because we know that Shane's is hockey and Ilya is Shane. Eternal hyperfixation.
00:48:52
Speaker
was going to say hyperfixation versus special interest. I'm going to make this distinction. I feel like a special interest is, is it's not in our list ah of special vocab words, but I feel like special interest is like a long-term Yeah, like, mine is, like, lifelong, like, Percy Jackson, like, that is my chosen. I feel like hyperfixations are, like, shorter term, like, weeks to months, so even, like, maybe up to years, but not, like, longer.
00:49:15
Speaker
So that's why like, current hyperfixation, I feel like, is different than special. That's why i say Shane's special interest is hockey, but I would say he's hyperfixated. Yeah, but I would say, like, Ilya would get hyperfixated on, like,
00:49:27
Speaker
video game or like yeah like yeah so go into the club club yeah i don't know if shane would oh my god that one bread thick gerald yeah yeah that's that's a special interest i'm gonna link that in the show notes but that's a really good thing actually that one ah I related a little too hard to Shane. putting it right on, but it's... It's an autism representation. who Who needs a diagnosis? If you relate to Shane, then you're autistic. You're autistic. I don't know what to tell you. I wanted to talk about that.
00:50:05
Speaker
Oh my god. guess her current hyperfixation is heated rivalry. that... don't know anyone has anything different. No, I would say everybody is maybe, but mine is a specific part of the heated rivalry fandom right now, which is creator chose not to use archive warnings. Creator chose use warnings. on fic i saw that coming i am actually currently running scraper scraping every creator chose not to use archive warning fic from archive of her own it's 9 120 of them and i am writing this paper basically is going to advocate for the inclusion of racism as an archive warning and the kind of fallout that new fandoms have when they don't understand the difference between tags and warnings. So that's my current hyperfixation. Because guess what? Tags and warnings are not the same thing.
00:50:56
Speaker
My special interest is fanfiction. And getting a job where I get to read fanfiction all the time is kind of amazing. My special interest is books, which is why I studied literature. My hyperfixation right now is... Stories of adoption and the adoption industry.
00:51:15
Speaker
I have been reading a lot about that. I am not adopted, but um I do have adopted relatives. So I was like, I started with one about the Tennessee Children's Society and then I went up from there and now I can stop.
00:51:35
Speaker
For sure. I think I'm in between hyperfixations and that's why I've been so like frozen. oh it's so horrible to be between hyperfixations. I have that ADHD paralysis because i i have homework. Could be doing that.
00:51:47
Speaker
I'm not. i have I have nothing to fall back on. I have to figure out what it has to be. No, real. I'm manifesting for you You'll find it within the week. Thank you. I don't know if this is a curse blessing. Check out on the Seaboot Brain Discord general chat.
00:52:03
Speaker
We pinned a document that I started that is choose your next hyperfixation. And people are suggesting that. forgot about that. It's not as rich as I want it to be because we all forget about it.
00:52:16
Speaker
And suddenly I remember this, but it's created specifically for that moment where you have nothing and you feel like nothing can get you out of bed.
00:52:27
Speaker
Oh, okay, so about a couple weeks ago, i don't even know how long ago, my hyperfixation was scum. And then I would message Laura about it and be like, I need to tell you this and this and this and this. Nice. Do y'all ever like feel like you could get like a hyperfixation coming where you couldn't, you need to like push it away because you have priorities? Because I'm absolutely like you're basic not engaged with media where I'm like, I literally...
00:52:51
Speaker
can't or i'm gonna i was like i will get so obsessive about this one thing and i it'll tear my life apart because that's how i feel about these things i really put off k-pop for as long as i possibly could for that reason because i knew it would get me too much and it has and i'm a victim to K-pop now slash yeah positive. I like it here. But yeah, it really does.
00:53:15
Speaker
I think that it's it's been a couple years and now, yeah, I can't get into Dan and Phil. It's just there's too much and I know that I would be there forever. And that's exactly what we made Laura do. That's exactly what we made her do. I'd say special interests. is a lot of like fiber arts, embroidery, crocheting, visible mending. In first grade, a woman taught me how to knit and I've been here ever since just expanding in fiber arts. So and if you want to see any of it, i don't know if I'm supposed to a shout out here, but it's happening. i have an art Instagram at jellyman underscore creates and I'm currently working on a really huge sun wall hanging that I'm very excited about and you can go look at it if you want.
00:53:59
Speaker
Oh my gosh, yes, of course we want to go look it. That's so cool! Okay, great. I think we covered, or no, we have a couple more vocab terms to quickly go over. Fidgeting and self-soothing. Fidgeting, I think, is kind of obvious. We have like fidget toys or stim toys to help, that's like fidget spinners, fidget cubes, or like hand puzzles,
00:54:19
Speaker
or other like like i'm doing a gesture with my hands this audio medium but like loopy things just like various i feel like these have risen in popularity recently but so this is a form of self-soothing which i feel we we've talked we've mentioned before on the podcast about ilia's self-soothing but this is like gestures that you can do on yourself or like on sometimes on like a thing like table or blankets who like if you're If people are having like a sensory problem or need to like calm themselves down or just kind of like regulate themselves, self-soothing is a way to do that. So there are certain touch points in your body that can help, but also just things that like like I touch my fingertips a lot when I played flute more regularly. i don't know if Kayla, if you do this, but i used to like finger different flute like fingerings or music things with my fingers. Oh, Laura's doing a thing with her cello. never noticed, but now that you say that, I think so. Yeah, I think I do.
00:55:09
Speaker
i It was such a regu- like a- to regulate myself and I never knew I did it until I was way older and I had like my default where I like would ran through a bunch of scales in my head and I thought I was like practicing or something. No, I was soothing by just doing my things that felt so natural me because I was doing them daily. So it felt so natural. So then anyway, that's an instance of self self-soothing and my favorite stem toy is my fidget spinner and I have hair ties wrapped all around it and so it gets like extra velocity because I use the hair ties to- I love that.
00:55:39
Speaker
yeah I feel like I need to see a video to understand because that sounds very fun, but I can't visualize it. I can grab it. In this little moment of Amanda going to grab something, I just have to put this in here. Since music is my career now, I will say that practicing my little scales is not soothing to myself. it Maybe to someone who never made it their career.
00:56:00
Speaker
Sounds great, but okay that this is not self-soothing to be practicing my scales on my lip balm. Oh, what? That's even better than I was imagining. That looks like so much one Oh, it's great because then it'll like wrap around my finger and I get to untangle it or I get to retie them all. I do it often during podcasting or art therapy under my desk and I'm just doing this. Yeah.
00:56:23
Speaker
It's so much better than I could have pictured. i like i like the clickers, like the like key clickers. like those are i like I'm always like clicking a pen, clicking the key clickers. I have this like little... yeah not person in this swo It's a little mesh like it's almost like, do you remember those like Chinese finger traps that you would get as like a kid? It's like that shape and length, but it's like squishy material. And you can roll a marble back and forth in it and like, oh,
00:56:56
Speaker
I'll send you one in your little package I'm gonna send you. ya I have a bunch of different toys on my desk that I give out to students. so In relation to Nerdivergence being hereditary, my mom frequently says something she loves about my dad is that he can make a toy out of anything. I'm like, let's think about why that is.
00:57:14
Speaker
Let's think about why the straw wrapper is so entertaining. no And why there needs to be entertainment also. no And um this is this goes back to like our conversation that we were having chat while Lau was talking earlier, which is like wood old or like, back in my day, people didn't have autism. And it's like, then they'll be like, this is my friend Jim. He has an entire model train system in his face that's 40 years of training. And I'm like, bro, Jim is autistic.
00:57:47
Speaker
Like, you guys used to collect silver spoons. Like, that's autism. that I don't know what to tell you. I looked up autism in the DSM. It was just Jim's face. It was just Jim's face.
00:58:02
Speaker
this' great What do you mean that my father has like very specific routines for food and what he does? And also the best gift I ever gave to him was like a tiny vacuum for crumbs.
00:58:14
Speaker
but I would love that. Yes. So yeah, my father, not neurodivergent at all. Crumb vacuum. But the thing is, he probably, he probably is.
00:58:26
Speaker
Exactly. My mom often has to remind my dad that when he goes and like starts a new doctor, that they he has to be like, and my children have depression and anxiety. Because, baby, it comes from somewhere. didn't skip you. Like, it did. listing family map that only comes to every other generation yeah la family history also goes down you have to include the ones that you made yes yes so exactly yeah so like my dad my mom was like this is a joke that we have that like my parents recently moved into this house where their laundry's on the same floor as their like rest of their apartment, like it's by their closet basically. And so they just like don't even have a laundry basket. And my mom has told me, she'd be like, your dad would do laundry ever every day if he possibly could. And I'm like, I hate laundry more than anything on the, there's too many subtasks to it. You gotta like, sort the clothes and then you gotta put them in the washer and then you gotta to put them in the dryer and then you gotta take the ones out of the dryer that aren't supposed to get dried. There's it's too much- And you don't do it right, there's consequences.
00:59:37
Speaker
And if you don't do it right, there's consequences! But my dad loves that shit. And I'm like... My husband. He loves it. It's gotta come from somewhere. Hi, Laurence Ferentz. I have a cancer run. Obligatory every episode. high high Hi, Ferentz. Hi, Laurence
00:59:56
Speaker
Ferentz. For sure, for sure. um Okay, so let's talk. Speaking of work whatever our lives, let's finally get to, it's only been an hour, let's get to the loves of our lives. Shane and Ilya.
01:00:10
Speaker
And Shane and Ilya's moms, too. And dads. And, you ask you know, we'll get there. you're Not plural, not both of their dads. but i Listen, David loves to read The New Yorker and do books. Yeah, he's fine.
01:00:24
Speaker
And he's really specific about vodka. That man's autistic, I don't know what to tell you. LAUGHTER ah Truth. Truth. Like, Shane's gotta get it from some more guys. There are arguments between I have no qualms with Shane's dad. It's Mr. Rosen up there. Look, and you know what?
01:00:41
Speaker
We'll get into it. Okay, so obviously there We have a heated debate. There's a heated debate. And the heated rivalry? Really? No way. Since we've got... Shane allegedly has autism.
01:00:53
Speaker
Has Rachel Reed ever confirmed or denied anything in her life? No. That is a moderate white woman if I have ever seen one in my entire life. But! I thought she confirmed it.
01:01:04
Speaker
I also thought that. She did. She did. yes She, like, confirmed it to Hudson.
01:01:13
Speaker
ah lauren Lauren is making sure we're never getting any, like, screeners or anything in this book.
01:01:21
Speaker
I think we, listen, I don't, I think there is value in critiquing people who don't. I agree. I agree. Anyways. Okay. So supposedly it is confirmed that Shane has autism, but it's never been written in the books. It's just been confirmed. You confirmed to have undiagnosed autism. Okay.
01:01:39
Speaker
But it's also, funny to era yeah those words have never been used in the books. What I'm trying to say is in the canonical text, there has never been Shane might be autistic ever said, but Please, let's look at Shane Hollander for a second.
01:01:52
Speaker
yeah Let's take a look. From the everything, face from the everything about it. Yeah, and next to the picture of Jim in the DSM.
01:02:05
Speaker
Exactly, you get it. It's like Shane Hollander and my grandpa's friend Jim with trains. The safe foods. The, like, doesn't always get along with the people in his room, but has the really high hockey IQ and the, like,
01:02:20
Speaker
everything must be this way folding his clothes before sex most of the time like so much of it is inability to make eye contact the eye contact and oh my god that was actually on my diagnosis like one of the first notes my neuropsychologist put in the document was like laura avoids side contact Lara has never looked at my face before.
01:02:43
Speaker
which It's my discord status right now. Lara has never looked at me. And I found out that neurotypical people find it rude when I was at the ripe age of 25 and I was like, I can't i can't just look you in the eyes, what do you mean?
01:02:53
Speaker
just stare at you in your eyeballs? Like, what do you mean? What do you mean? Yeah. No, I tell my students if they have problems with eye contact, always look at right above the person's head because then you look like you're looking at them, but you don't actually have to make eye contact with them. That is mean. I can't do that with my coworker who's
01:03:13
Speaker
I don't know. Maybe try for, like, the chin. Yeah. The opposite way as well. Yeah. That's when you walk in with your platform shoes on and just look stupid. I feel like you're taller than you, you can look at the top of their head. Because I feel like that's still better than... Because it's obvious if you look the... How tall are you? I'm Or no, I'm not sitting over anyone's heads. not sitting over anyone's heads. not sitting over anyone's heads.
01:03:39
Speaker
And I guess that is that is a note that I usually give them for when they're speaking in class doing a presentation to just look at the top of our heads. yeah I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna find somebody who's taller than me and I'll see if I can look at the top of their head. Everyone's taller than me.
01:03:54
Speaker
and Same. Kaylee, Latina as representative. Wait, well, yes, it's Latina genes. Wait, Laura, how tall are you? She's like five three You gave five six we did the conversion You gave five six energy.
01:04:05
Speaker
She gives tall! I am tall in my culture, okay? Yeah, I'm taller than my aunt because I'm almost fiveb too hes good
01:04:18
Speaker
jm Not only they're asking me for a number, they're asking me for a number in units I do not use. She's right, that the majority of the world does not use. I'm sorry. yeah sorry That was crazy of me.
01:04:31
Speaker
I just saw your face go like, they like froze. You were like, I now I'm sorry. You can tell me in centimeters, I'll figure it out I'll do the work. I'm sorry. I'll do the work. mero metroes andos Metro 62.
01:04:47
Speaker
Okay. I know that's much Spanish. I was like, what was that? Un metro? that a meter? Kaylee enters Spanish with me, hello love. Yeah, ah notably, every time Amanda and I used to go to a bar together, Amanda was referred to as my little friend.
01:05:03
Speaker
So Amanda is my wife too. Wait, are we... ah Are we all down here? Lauren, we should have Yes! I think I'm in the middle.
01:05:16
Speaker
i think I'm maybe more towards Lauren, but... Yeah. how to Wait, what do you mean you don't know... I don't have a ruler. don't have a measuring tape in here. I don't have a ruler.
01:05:30
Speaker
should do that. ah I'll pour it out later. ah Shane. Shane, autism. um Shane's parents. Do we agree? Yes. He definitely is. oh okay yeah I fight that David is the autistic one and Nuna is neurotypical.
01:05:48
Speaker
I don't know if she's neurotypical. all those oh She's not. Okay, give me give me the reason for why she's not. Why she's not neurotypical or why she's not neurodivergent? Why she's not neurotypical?
01:06:01
Speaker
um I think her special interest is managing Shane's career. Did you see how fast she locked in after yeah the whole thing? she They had like two minutes of emotional moment and then she goes, okay, so what's the plan? Like,
01:06:15
Speaker
feel like she is very much that like one track mind, whatever she's thinking about. She's like, I need everyone to come to me. Like, we're going to do this thing because that's what makes the most sense. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah this is how it's going to work. she gives in my brain but managing She was managing the conversation. She was like, okay, drinks. This is the moment for drinks. drinks Yeah. Okay.
01:06:35
Speaker
Now you speak. Now you do this. Okay. So now we're what are we going to do? It's really crazy because I was just thinking to myself, well, that's how I act. Well, of course.
01:06:47
Speaker
And here we are, all five of us. And here we are. Wow. Look at what you want. Watch how the tables turn. The turntables, yes. The turntables. That was my first thought was show, show Yuna, but let's talk about book Yuna because for a second I was like, sometimes we forget about book Yuna and she's so delightfully normal and sweet. True.
01:07:09
Speaker
And they character combined for this. They needed more screen time for her or something. And Shane has a regular agent the Yes! The agent's like a really nice character in the long game where like the agent is the first person they tell. And she was like, well, I'm so surprised. Glad you guys are happy. She's like, yeah, sure. You guys are in the bedroom in the cottage. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Sure you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are friends, right? Yuna is really, really soft and normal the book. Yeah. And she's just like this supportive little figure. And I think that Yuna is probably neurotypical, but the one in the show, most definitely not.
01:07:50
Speaker
he's one of us okay Okay. All right. Thank you, Kaylee. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think she has enough layers that we can read into it a little bit. But you can, I also see like the, well, this is making me rethink the like archetype of the like girl boss, like CEO, like feminism, like glass shattering, glass ceiling, yeah, like shattering that like I think Because sometimes I feel like I put Yuna in that type of archetype of the career focus, even though it's kind of her son's career, but in way it's her career to manage him. But I think that that is her dedication. But now I'm rethinking that archetype of women as their autism has them, or their neurodivergence has them like, how do I word this? Is by having, that they're almost masking and succeeding in society by having almost this caricature-like persona to be able to succeed and be that girl boss. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, or even like so aware of like social cues that you're able to like, not weaponize it, but like use it back on people and like so hyper aware everything I think could potentially be read into. I'm also thinking about like the like strong sense of justice that like Shane was so worried about lying.
01:09:02
Speaker
So I actually right before we started recording, I rewatched David, specifically the scene of David finding them and then the conversation and because I was like, this is going to be relevant and I need to know exactly what happened. And Shane, what he was so stressed out about was the lying and that the lie was found out and he wasn't able to come clean about it.
01:09:21
Speaker
And to me, that was like an autism moment of like, I knew I shouldn't have been lying. Lying is bad. And now my parents know and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I feel like she also has that strong sense of justice. And now that I'm saying it, I'm forgetting moments we see it, but just trust me. Okay, guys.
01:09:38
Speaker
Maybe like Ilya, like her resistance to Ilya too, of like, no, he's the bad guy. Like, it's kind of this black and white thinking, you know? and i Well, she does say like lying like that's not you. She says that at one point in, oh, it's when they're at lunch and they're asking him to go to the suitish to tennis for Rolex with the Swedish whatever. yeah And he's like, just lie and tell them that I'm sick or whatever. And she's like, that's not you. Hudson's eye acting there was crazy. I felt that in my soul.
01:10:09
Speaker
yeah yeah the like trying to perform for your parents there's also the tuxedo line like what are you we doing we're both wearing tuxedos like special clothing for special like for specific activities and occasions yeah oh once we understood once we had like thought about that in the pod with you i think it was your friend's voice note i believe it was my student it was lauren's student i have been thinking about that because it is so like that is so like i associate this with that and like therefore this is a different persona or different person I'm masking here than when with he's unmasking with Ilya it's entirely different so he's like we can't do that here in the way that Ilya is masking in Russia and it just blows my mind yeah so we have that we have the food and in in in this I wanted to like briefly mention the intersection of neurodivergence and eating disorders
01:11:00
Speaker
And how like the image that we have of eating disorders is super defined by this idea of thinness and like people being obsessed with being thin.
01:11:11
Speaker
And that's why I love Heartstopper. I love that we get a representation of an eating disorder that is related to control. I was going to mention Heartstopper too. Yeah, the the coping mechanism for when you feel like you lost control. So we have that. a lot of neurodivergent people, as I was saying, like feel that everything is out of control because nothing is comfortable. Nothing makes sense. So food is a very good way to control things. And also, if you have sensory processing disorder, you're going to avoid a lot of foods.
01:11:45
Speaker
And you're going to have a hard time trying new things. And I am sure that everyone here in this conversation has like safe foods that you eat when nothing else feels right. We probably were, most of us, classified as picky eaters. But the thing is, sometimes your brain will hijack you to the point where it becomes um unhealthy. And you can start disorderly eating or even developing ah an eating disorder. Like in Shane's case, no matter what Rachel Reed says, he has an eating disorder. Like and what he has is the need to control something in his life. And that is food.
01:12:26
Speaker
So, yeah. He is obsessed with the idea of clean eating. it it sounds a lot like an orthorexia at some point, which is the obsession with eating clean, eating healthy, super healthy. And I think this is very common on people that survive on rules and routine. It's very easy to fall into something that is not healthy for your nutrition.
01:12:53
Speaker
So if you're struggling with that, remember you can ask full for help. Eating disorders go beyond body image. Not everyone is struggling with body image. Some are, and if you're one of them, I send you a lot of strength because that really sucks and it's not easy, I know. But some others, like...
01:13:14
Speaker
don't don't care about weight it's about something else control texture etc so just keep that in mind because people like shane people like me people like us will have a weird relationship with food and society is a bit blind to other eating disorders that are not about being thin and being like the next victoria's secret model yeah I wanted to mention on the note of Shane's relationship with food, it only happens in the long game. I think a couple things that Jacob did in the show were to um characterize the characters more so that they're more distinct. And he used some things from the series as a whole rather than the book, just like as a singular text, I guess. And Shane does not have...
01:14:01
Speaker
that eating issue in the first book that he appears in. And that's why people are like, bro, this ginger ale has so much sugar in it. And it's like, well, this was a character quirk of his before he had the eating stuff and like, go with it, bro. We're trying to make a good show. um But he only got that way in the long game. And I forget how it got to that point. I think it was like, I mean, um it was like an obsession with control and like,
01:14:25
Speaker
you know, oh I'm getting older, i'm like gonna be 30, I need to keep my body in shape yeah and keep it like as perfect as possible so I can play hockey as long as possible because hockey is everything. And then there's this whole journey through the long game on that concept actually, that hockey is everything. But Ilya's like, I'm gonna go pick up a McMuffin and Shane's like, you're disgusting. And then they like have a kiss, goodbye.
01:14:48
Speaker
I think some of his, like, orthorexia, like, in the long game is also stemming from, like, he and Ilya have decided to, like, be together and be in a relationship together. And there's, like, such a loss of control there. Mm-hmm. And, like... The we're getting closer and closer, like you're moving to Ottawa, we're starting the foundation together, we're being seen together even more. There could be potential speculation about us, which is also like a loss of control, like Shane's not controlling the narrative about him and Elia. even though he's the one that suggested this is the narrative that we take and the narrative that we go through, I think suggesting it and like thinking about it is one thing and then actually going through it is another thing. Because like we talked about last week on our race episode, and we've talked about before, like so much of Shane's anxiety about being outed is also linked to his anxiety about his race and the way that he's being treated in the and NHL as an Asian player. And so I think some of this orthorexia also is being like drawn upon by those issues as well, if that makes sense.
01:15:59
Speaker
I fully agree with you, Lauren. And also i was i was also going to bring up the the the the race and queerness of it all. So if I cannot be this perfect body and person for hockey, in the sense of my race and my sexual orientation, I need to be this perfect body in nutrition. And I have to be the perfect athlete. And I just want, like, yeah, everything is changing. And something I have learned from my own process is, it's not that I don't like the changing. Like, it's not that he's not happy about the foundation, about Ilia, about Ilia being... So it's not it's not that the change is bad in itself.
01:16:41
Speaker
You know, like, I'm sure he's like, super happy to have Ilya so close by. He's super happy that they have like decided to be honest about feelings and starting the foundation. It's just that change requires a lot of brain effort for
Life Changes and Mental Health
01:16:58
Speaker
some. And when I say i struggle with transitions, I might have like a marvelous change coming up in my life. Like when I moved for the first time with my partner, when I moved to to Boston to do my master's on where I started my PhD when I adopted my cats.
01:17:15
Speaker
But my brain has a hard time adjusting. And it's so exhausting sometimes that people think, I am not enjoying myself. People think that i I resent the change. So when I read the long game, I was like, oh, this makes a lot of sense. He's trying to control something because he wants to enjoy what ah he feels like he should be enjoying because he's he's happy about it. But at the same time, he's his brain is freaking out. And that makes a lot of sense. And I...
01:17:48
Speaker
have found that anticipation helps like imagine what it like I hate traveling and I love traveling at the same time but the waiting mode that I enter a week before taking a plane i hate it so I I need to start making lists and preparing myself and saying out loud like this is what's gonna happen the airport is gonna look like this blah blah blah so Even if it's something I'm excited about, like Shane is about Ilia and about the foundation and about Ilia moving to Ottawa. It still requires of him like changing his, like, I think we all have this auto drive mode sometimes. And so we were're we're comfort like we feel comfort in routine or in familiar things. So if that changes, your brain has to recalibrate everything again.
01:18:43
Speaker
Can I go off of that for a second? Yeah. Because you explained a lot of things in terms of like the eating stuff that also matches up with so many other things in the long game. Where like, oh, Ilya is so close now, but they're always thinking, oh but they're so far. Like, I can't.
01:18:58
Speaker
You can't see him. He's still like three hours away and there's no time to do that with our schedules. So he's so much closer, but he's farther almost in a sense because now they have succumbs to the feelings. They love each other. Right. And now they have to know that and still not see each other no matter how far they are. Yeah. and it it causes resentment that you like you were saying resentment.
Ilya's Mental Health Journey
01:19:18
Speaker
it grows with both of them and neither of them want that and they know that but like all of that change even if it's supposed to have made it better makes them feel bad in the moment no matter what yeah that was just such a parallel that you were saying that I was like wait this also happens in this almost exactly totally agree Fully agree. Yeah, should we use that as like a connection to talk about Ilya and his neurodivergence a bit?
01:19:45
Speaker
Yeah, Ilya, as we know, has depression and likely PTSD, but definitely like the depression and of mental illness there is connected to his mother, which, as we know, his mother committed suicide. And this is like really big for him and really big in his character art arc, again, in the long game. We see it start to crop up more and we see him like he get a therapist and stuff. I don't know if this is spoilers, but also like the book's been out for a while and we've been hinting at it so I feel like we're we're kind of good on long game spoilers but Ilya I feel like doesn't have the need for control the way Shane does but I feel like he still wants control of his life like such insofar as that he wants to control of the future and like he doesn't want to be outed but he is a bit more like Ali at whatever food but he does have that like cloud hanging over him with his mental illness with his depression And I think that, oh yeah, I'll put in the chat, fear of abandonment, I think definitely as well. He's got these inner anxieties and he hides it from Shane, which he might not need to. but And of course, that's like part of the point of the angst for the plot. But i think that it's different from Shane, but they can kind of connect in the way that like their brains and the the way that they work will take them out of the present moment. And they'll kind of like get go in on themselves or they're like,
01:20:58
Speaker
It causes discord in their relationships, and I think that that's really important to talk about. And I think it's important character growth for him and for them in their relationship to to work on together.
01:21:09
Speaker
Going off of that as well, like with Ilya's side of things, you also see in the long game how he realizes like he was using kind of like clubbing and hookups and stuff as like a probably unhealthy coping mechanism. Mm-hmm. And he's like, well, it was working so far, but now I'm in this like monogamous relationship, and I'm not really getting any joy from going out, or I don't want to go out anymore. And the whole point of kind of going to the club was to find someone to hook up with, and I'm not doing that anymore. And so like kind of relate not in the exact coping mechanism of but like using distraction to like be okay and that if the distraction that you were using like you're watching this show that's like great and then you run out of show and it can be really like oh my god what do i do now and that same thing of like well dang hookups are off the table like what am i supposed to do now and i feel like we see his you know mental health is just getting worse because of the coping mechanism he doesn't know what to do now that he doesn't have that anymore
01:22:08
Speaker
Yeah, especially because he's in a new place with new people on a new team on like a worse team and he like his fan base is confused on why he moved and like so much of his life just changed because he had been and he had his like life changed when he went to Boston. He had that consistency of Boston of that team, even if like the roster changed, he was like their star for Not the Bruins. LL playoffs. Which we haven't talked about hockey in about We'll have to do that maybe later episode. He plays for Boston. Whatever. um let me set a track. And so so now he like totally upends his life. And it has to be so dysregulating for him. And it's so...
01:22:43
Speaker
like and um not unnerving, but like, you he had these, like you were saying, JM, with like these regular, like, activities, and now he, it's this quiet Ottawa town with not much to do, and he's got some good people, but he has to like, put his roots back and regrow his roots and and remake relationships to the stuff and stuff in it. has really That's a good point. People wondering why he moved and it's like, how do you answer that? You know, like, how do you, how does he explain that one?
01:23:07
Speaker
Why did he move to Ottawa? The capital of Canada. Why did he move to Ottawa where the team is bad? and Yeah, there's yeah one specific reason that makes a lot of sense, but can't tell anyone. Right, and I think like something that's really interesting and I think one of the reasons why I highly suggest like reading the rest of the Game Changers novels is like when you read the long game you only get like one side of Ilya's like you get his kind of like in his head thoughts but then in all of the other novels you can get like a really different Ilya. And so it's like very interesting to see how like his neurodivergence is like adjusted or changed or developed or not developed or whatever in the other novels and also how neurodivergent people mask the things that they're actually going through. Because like if you read all the other Game Changers novels and you were like, you would be like, Ilya's not depressed. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. This man is not...
01:24:04
Speaker
He's not going it through anything. And then you get the long game and you're like, wait, this man is depres- Dispresso. Like, this man is me. It's me, Dispresso. Plus, if you read all of them, you get to see Ilya every time. Right, I mean, absolutely. It's like, oh no, he's just so mysterious. Like, we don't know where he's at. He's doing this crazy shit, probably. Like, oh my god, like, what is he up to? I love when he hangs out with us because it's so, like, It's he's out
Family Dynamics and Neurodivergence
01:24:30
Speaker
on set. Or he's with his boyfriend. Like,
01:24:34
Speaker
In role model when Harris is like, we don't know where Ilya is when he's not here, but he always seems to disappear. Weird. Anyways. And you're like, hello? And Harris is saying that we're like, yeah, okay. Anyways. Can someone check on him? No, no, he's just like, like, he's definitely in, um in, oh gosh.
01:24:52
Speaker
Speaking of ADHD. The other place in Canada. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like he definitely just goes to Shane's place in Montreal and they're like, we don't know where Ilya goes on the weekends, but he's fine.
01:25:04
Speaker
And if not Shane, he's with Shane's parents for sure. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Which we love them. ah i don't think we talked about this, but Ilya's parents as neurodivergent characters. I mean, Ilya is obviously the big one, you know, suicidal ideation, committed suicide, has mental health issues. I'm going to make the argument that Ilya's dad Grigori whatever his name is.
01:25:28
Speaker
who We don't know name It's also neurodivergent, but it is like, it's not like neurodivergence, like that he's born with. Like, it's not like a brain, like, like Alzheimer's. Yes, it affects your brain, but it is, it does like um impair your functioning and like your cognition and the way you think about things. and how you respond to things emotionally. And those are all of the things that we're talking about as neurodivergence, right? you know So like, I think we definitely can make a case for Grigori even also being neurodivergent or in a neurodivergent spectrum in some way, shape or form. even though we don't want to because he's a horrible fucking person. Yeah. It's okay. Neurodivergent people can do anything, including being evil.
01:26:13
Speaker
Yes. Neurodivergent's right and wrong. Exactly. Exactly. do anything. And this is also off Lau's point of a diagnosis is an explanation, a justification for positive. Yeah.
01:26:25
Speaker
I think there can also be like when you're masking, right? You want to be normal, especially in a country like Russia, I would imagine. like being normal elite whatever they you know whatever they call it I think there could be like a hyper fixation on like enforcing and being the best that he just like has to make it happen maybe and that's why he's like a police officer and also the worst yeah you know like the enforcing of like we need to and I think this is like we've talked about this before in the podcast where it's like like adherence to cultural norms and like
01:26:57
Speaker
different contexts between high and low cultures and like how high cultural contexts are like fixated on the idea of like your like one person represents the whole culture and like is like how much of that is playing into Grigori's actions and then how much is like other determining factors because we also assume that it's like Grigori from a very very early part in Shane and Ilya's story is at least experiencing symptoms of Alzheimer's or dementia. which we can We can go all the way back to like the first draft when we see like Ilya and Grigori and like Ilya to me reads as like afraid of what his dad is gonna say next. because he's experienced these issues where he forgets things or he doesn't know what he's going to say. And as less of a like, oh, what abusive thing is my dad to hurl at me? It is like, I literally don't know what this man is going say next. Yeah, unpredictable.
01:27:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's unpredictable. So let's shift over to talking about like individual moments. JM, I know you kind of want to take this, so.
01:28:07
Speaker
Yes, hello. Okay, so I want to talk about the shower scene because I was thinking about it um comparing to some of my own experiences of when you're neurodivergent and you do a behavior,
01:28:20
Speaker
What can happen when it's not what the other person expected is either they think you're weird and they're rude or they ignore you or right when you do a behavior. The second option is they're very kind and they either pretend they didn't notice or they like gently are like, oh, we don't need to do that.
01:28:40
Speaker
And then the third option is they really match your freak in a very unexpected way that you're anticipating.
01:28:49
Speaker
So my personal, um don't worry, going tie it in. I'm going to land the ship, but we're not there yet. We're still in the air. So my personal example of this is i was raised in the South and I learned that you smile and wave at everyone. that's what I always do.
01:29:06
Speaker
Now I don't live in the South anymore, but that is my masking is being friendly. My mask is friendly. So I'm very friendly. And now I live in the North where that is showing intimacy or want for connection. That's not what I'm intending. I'm trying to be hashtag normal.
01:29:24
Speaker
but But what this has led to is a lot of people tell me every single thing about their life immediately. if they are the third type of person.
01:29:36
Speaker
And it's like, oh, and it took me a while because I was like, why does this always happen to me? And the reason is I'm doing a behavior that means a different thing here than what I thought. I'm not doing the social cues correct. So I'm landing it now. i'm landing the plane. So Shane, speaking whether an accident aren't on purpose in the showers is really eyeing up Ilya.
01:29:58
Speaker
And if he was with any other hockey player, they would not be looking at him because that's sus. who But he was with Ilya, and Ilya was like, I'm gonna match your freak right now, and we're gonna get spicy right now, and Shane was not ready for that.
01:30:14
Speaker
that was He was like, I'm just admiring the art, like... You weren't supposed to notice that and now something is happening. And that was my read on that scene. so yeah, thoughts? I love that because it was definitely Baby's first cruising and he was not ready to find the... find Iliad like jumping to, I'm gonna start playing with myself. Well, look at you like...
01:30:44
Speaker
Shane was doing the scanner eyes and getting hard, but he had no plans to do anything about it. He was just like, one day in my life, I just suffer. That's how I live. And suddenly he finds this and he's like, and and you can see his face like go through all the
Character Interactions: Book vs. Screen
01:31:04
Speaker
stages. I was like, what?
01:31:08
Speaker
Oh, nice. How did we get here? Not here. And they love it I love it. love it because i think that really changes. Like that and the fact that after that, Ilya's like, you're a bad liar.
01:31:23
Speaker
I'm going to help you with this. let me Let me grab your hand and teach you how how we do this and we don't freak out. And he's like, give me a room number, blah, blah, blah.
01:31:35
Speaker
And I love it because it really, like one of those experiences where someone matches your freak and gently takes your hand and tells you it's okay once you're freaking out, it changes your brain chemistry. Like the way you perceive yourself is so different than when what usually happens is that people just like look at you weirdly or get mad at you.
01:32:01
Speaker
So... I love it. I love that reading of the scene. Yeah, I recently saw a tweet that was like, it was people like reheating and like not having like, or no, actually, I think it was a quote too, where it was like, what is like a thing like people aren't, people didn't aren't like talking about it enough. And it was like,
01:32:19
Speaker
Ilya didn't just, like, come on to Shane, and that it's, like, Shane was, like, starting to get hard. Like, that was, he saw Ilya's ass and, like, started to get hard, and then that's when Ilya matched his freak. And so I think that's a great reading of it. Exactly. i think you put great words to that, but that reminded me of that tweet where people, and to me, I was like, oh, I thought everyone knew this, but I i don't, maybe people missed that part of, because it's, like, the way that it's cut, because, like, obviously they can't show that, but the way It's supposed to be insinuated that Shane was starting to get hard because he saw the lines. side line.
01:32:55
Speaker
There's something about reading the book first, because there's this show is maybe the most accurate show like book to show that I've ever seen, personally. When I say it personally, it's because I like don't see many things. But it's maybe the most accurate book to screen out adaptation I've ever seen. But there are certain things you simply will not get if you don't read the book.
01:33:16
Speaker
And that's one of them. Because, yeah you can't show that. How are they going to show that? like And so, Elias looks down and he says, like, oh, do you like what i you like what you see or something? And that they didn't include. But there are just certain things you will not get if you don't read the book, simply because it's impossible to do.
01:33:34
Speaker
And i encourage people read the book for that reason. Especially with Game Changer, because there's an oopsie on time. yeah And they they admitted it. Francois, I think, was saying that Jacob was like, oh, yeah, oops. Mm-hmm.
01:33:45
Speaker
see For like the year, the three years in between that was like an oops. Oops. Yeah. We're just, we're just gonna ignore that part. That's just, it was already filmed. It was like they were, they were watching it back. Yes. The other moment I wanted to talk about was the restaurant with Rose and Shane's way of communicating in that scene was so like painfully, but also like beautifully familiar to me. And The way that like his answers and his shaking his head and nodding his head and it almost looks like difficult to even communicate in that way. I have a really similar thing if I'm upset about something and someone is like trying to help me with it.
01:34:26
Speaker
Even that can like cause me to be even more upset and it's really hard to communicate in those moments and like yeah and If anything, I was impressed that he was like verbal by the end of that scene. And I think it also showed how comfortable he is with Rose and probably why it was able to... like He was trying so hard to be in like this hetero space with her specifically because i'm like he must have been so comfortable with her to be able to come back to speaking by the end of that and start joking around and like I was like that really speaks to their friendship because like it takes if I get to that point where I am communicating via nods and shakes because I can't do anything else it's gonna take me a long time to get out of there even if I'm with my bestie you know yeah absolutely no I relate to that I think I pointed it out when we covered it or one of us did about like how he is so like shut down and in himself and is so like trying to process all of this like he's
01:35:25
Speaker
And so where he's like, yeah he he's like barely making eye contact.
Identity and Social Anxiety
01:35:29
Speaker
And for me, that is also one of the like epitome, like Shane autism moments of the like teary eyed, like Like, he's, like, so, I think he's scared, too, because, like, this is the first time that anyone said these words that he's, like, that he's he's only been thinking, and she's just, like, pulling them right out of his head. So, yeah, the fact that he's verbal by the end and making jokes, I think, is, he's, like, unmasking with her now. I've said before, Shane is so funny. You just have to understand his humor. He has, like, peak autism humor, where it's just, like, lot flat affect, like, deadpan, like, so, but it's so funny. It's so, so, yeah. No, I think he's also scared because someone figured it out.
01:36:07
Speaker
Yeah. Like someone connected the dots and they figured it out, which I think, you know, comforted by the end because like she was in his bedroom. Like, how was she? No one else has been there. But I think he's also scared because someone like figured it out. Yeah.
01:36:21
Speaker
Well, I feel like that's also like an autism thing of like, wait, I thought I was hiding it so well. What do you mean? Exactly. Like that definitely happened to me before. Like my friends in high school, they were like, JM, like I love, I wish I could be like you. Like you're just so authentically yourself and like unique. And I feel like I have to fit in this box. And I'm like, wait, guys, I thought I was fitting in the box. Wait, what do you mean?
01:36:45
Speaker
I thought I was just like, you, what do you mean I'm so unique in myself? Like, I'm literally trying so hard not to do that right now. Thank God we're past that phase of my life. And now I am actually authentically unique in myself. But yeah, someone clocking you when you thought you were doing so good at hiding it is like, oh, yeah.
01:37:01
Speaker
Felt. No, wait, shut the fuck up. And this was in like, I was in band in high school. So this was in an even more niche community. And I felt that. yeah Yeah, I feel that someone wrote to me on my like yearbook the year I graduated from high school. I love how you're always super authentic. No, i mean you don't immortalize that on paper. Yeah, what other people think. And I was like,
01:37:25
Speaker
I don't need a paper trail of that. What do you mean? i over care I only care about what people think. Like, I had a friend who was like, oh, when you turn 30, you stop caring what other people think. And I was like, no, that's like my only anxiety is everything about what other people think. My constant anxiety is like, I'm talking to the students and maybe I'm being ridiculous. Maybe they don't understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. Maybe they're thinking about how I am all sweaty because I came to You're going to write out their evaluations that I'm a terrible professor and I'm going to lose my job and I'm going to no income and I'm going to become homeless and no one's going to love me and I'm have get rid of my cats.
01:38:03
Speaker
Yeah, when I have banter with one of them, I'm like, the other ones are annoyed. You know, like, yeah, what do you mean? You turned 30 you're stuck caring. No, no, no.
01:38:14
Speaker
No, no, no. This is a joke, right? This is a joke, right? Okay. I think, I think we've talked about a lot. Do we have anything else we want to add? Cause I have one like final question for everybody, but do we have anything else we want to throw out there about this show and neurodivergence? Yes, I do want to shout out the self-soothing and co-regulation, some examples in the show. Of course we get Ilya during pre-Tunemelt meltdown. We get him with like hands in pans and hand on ear. Ilya is very big with hands on ear. Lau's pointed it out a million times. I think the foot tabbing is really huge for both of them. I think always the toe touches. We we tracked those through our coverage of the show. i think especially when Shane's having his meltdown, when after david finds them in the cottage i think like that whole rest of the cottage episode i think ilia is really just there for him like like touching him like trying to ground him like pulling him out of it like being like your your parents and your your family and your boyfriend are here now like um i think that is a big co-regulation example do y'all have any other highlights for that i think also
01:39:22
Speaker
It's interesting because in the show, there's so many times where they kind of miss each other in terms of communication.
Support and Emotional Regulation in Relationships
01:39:29
Speaker
But I think by the cottage scene, they have known each other for so long that once they are allowed to show their care for each other, it seems like it comes naturally to be able to help each other regulate.
01:39:41
Speaker
So both like when Ilya is talking about his mom and, you know, When Shane like wakes them up in the middle of the night and then also um after Shane's dad comes, like I feel like it's shown how much they do understand each other and their quote unquote quirks and what they need in those moments of stress from each other. And that was like really beautiful to me.
01:40:05
Speaker
Yeah, there's this Alice Wong book that I have ah thrown in. It's called, ah there's two. There's Disability Intimacy, which is essays on love, care, and desire, and then Disability Visibility, which are first-person stories from the 21st century. Alice Wong recently, think,
01:40:21
Speaker
believe passed at the beginning of this year or the end of last year, but is a very famous MacArthur fellow and disability rights activist and has written extensively on disability studies. And so those two books, I think, are really good to talk about like relationships and how like disabled people approach relationships and how do we have like care for them in relationships.
01:40:43
Speaker
And so I think those are really great places if you want to explore more of that. kind of those kinds of ideas we should go Okay, well then if there's nothing else, I have a last kind of final question before we close out, which is what do you want to see about neurodivergence in the future seasons, in the books that are coming out, in the fan fiction that people are writing? What do you want people to know about neurodivergence or Shane's neurodivergence or Ilya's or any of those characters we just mentioned?
01:41:12
Speaker
I have an idea on Ilya's depression in book two, well, book two book six, the long game. I, like someone was saying before, I forget who, speaking of ADHD, during this here meeting, someone was saying in in all the other Game Changers books, Ilya's not depressed. Like, that's not who that is. You know, there's no way that guy's depressed. He's cool. And, you know, he's cool. And i I want to be able to see that from his character on screen, and then when he's dealing with his depression, say in like a solo shot on screen, we can really see the difference, and just emphasize the fact that Ilya
01:41:52
Speaker
cool guy who comes around the corner and winks and winks at you. He's not he's not this. He's not depressed. And that's really what he believes about himself at first too. And then he's scared because he knows how it ended for his mom.
01:42:03
Speaker
And I really want to see that difference on screen. Yeah. For sure. Anyone else have thoughts about what they want to see? Yeah, you actually sparked two thoughts for me, Kaylee. One, so i agree that the show is a really accurate adaptation, but there also were some changes that I feel like a lot of the fanbase has agreed, like, enhanced the story.
01:42:27
Speaker
And so one thing... I'm also thinking about Lauren earlier saying like there's nothing in the text that is showing that Shane is like autistic. I feel like in the long game, Shane like notices that something's wrong and he asks Ilya multiple times and he's like, what about therapy? And Ilya's kind of like resistant. I feel like a lot of partners in that situation will be like, oh well, I've been going to therapy and it's like so helpful for me. Like, i would love a Shane therapy arc of like whether it's related to the eating this disorder, like where he's like, oh, I'm just going to go to show that it's not that bad, but I don't actually have any problems. And then he kind of learns like, oh, yeah.
01:43:02
Speaker
I don't know how likely that is, but I think it would be interesting. And the other thing also is i want them to keep the fact that Ilya finds a bilingual therapist who speaks fluent Russian. yes And I want therapy to be in Russian. Sorry, Ilya, that you're going have to read some subtitles, but like... No, see, that's fine. big That's fine because I can't hear them in Russian anyways.
01:43:26
Speaker
Perfect! Okay, so it's perfect for everyone and I think that it's important to show that Ilya is having a hard time also specifically because it's so difficult to express what he's actually feeling accurately in English.
01:43:42
Speaker
And that comes really great after this the scene of the phone call in Russian too. Uh-huh. Funny enough, J.M., and this is related to what my friend Anna sent on on on her fan mail. Like,
01:43:54
Speaker
I actually enjoyed having therapy for like four years in English. But because it gives me like... Like a shield? Yeah, it's like a shield. like It allows me to separate myself from the feelings of shame that I can get. That's interesting.
01:44:12
Speaker
Talking about my emotions and the language barrier just like allows me to be more open about emotions because I don't feel like I'm showing myself in such a raw way. yeah I'm still translating it. So it really helped. i think I think my best years of therapy have been in the US because of that.
01:44:33
Speaker
yeah It gives a new meaning to putting a name to it. Mm-hmm. I also feel like you and also Ilya actually by the time the long game happens are a lot more skilled in your additional languages than I am in my additional language because if I was trying to do therapy in German like I can have a casual conversation in German and I can be like I can order food and I can ask for directions I don't know if I even know the word for emotions like life is short to learn German you know like
01:45:07
Speaker
I like that the rules are consistent though. Yes! Like I said to Lava once, English has rules to break them. Yes, no, basically, literally. ye Yeah, I think I would just love more more representation. I would just love more characters who are neurodiverse or present neurodiverse. I don't think that Rachel Reid has to come out and be like, Shane has autism now, or Shane got diagnosed with autism and i unrivaled. like That I don't think needs to happen. It's kind of like we were talking about this so in our race episode where we were like, you know, don't like ah bring in stuff to like satisfy the masses. Yeah.
01:45:44
Speaker
It's like, it like cheapens it a lot. And like we can do in-depth readings without you explicitly saying things. But I think like more representation is always a good thing. And meaningful representation is always what we're looking for. Right. We would want like meaningful representation. like representation that that changes our story, you know, that frames things out for people to understand and get better about addressing neurodivergence, be better about addressing ableism and things
Future Representation of Neurodivergence in Media
01:46:16
Speaker
in their own lives. So anything that helps that is always a great thing. On that line, and we have said this, Lauren and I have, we keep we keep repeating this through this season of the podcast. What we do want acknowledged and verbalized is the eating disorder. We do want him get help for that. We do want him to get a diagnosis for that. We do want Rachel Reed to stop saying like, it is not because she wrote an eating disorder. That's it.
01:46:45
Speaker
What reminded me earlier was Troy's seemingly like social anxiety, especially like with being in the closet. I would love to see him, like especially, you know that opening up moment he has in the long game, I guess spoiler warning, but it's really just a Christmas sweater photo shoot, so get over it. He really comes out of his shell when Elia's like, let's have fun with this puppy and these sweaters. And before that, you're you're just in Troy's head about like,
01:47:11
Speaker
How do I say this? Is my face emoting weird? Oh my gosh, I think I just seemed homophobic because, you know, that terrible guy that I was friends with and I just can't like express my emotions on my face. Oh my gosh, now I've been thinking about this for so long that I haven't said anything and I'd love to see that on Troy.
01:47:25
Speaker
yeah i agree. hard rate I'm gonna pull in Ilya Rosanova and say what they said, um but really yeah I don't want to back up everything everyone said, but especially the Troy thing. like I had low-key forgot about that and I- she's reminded. Yes, absolutely.
01:47:39
Speaker
For sure. Alright, well, do we have anything else we want to add before we go ahead and close ourselves out? Do y'all have anything you want to plug? No. I just, I was thinking of plugging, like, I said it before, I was like, I'm just so proud that I got people from our Percy Jackson Discord into this, because, first of all, it's just been such a joyful, like,
01:47:59
Speaker
Having this Discord server of all of us, i think it's heatedrivalrygirlies. What a joyful place. What a joyful place. What a joyful place. and i'm so glad to to know and share all of this with you guys.
01:48:11
Speaker
For sure. Yeah, same. Thank you for bringing... i am not on the Percy Jackson podcast, but thank you for allowing me to be there. i think feel like we have a lot of great conversations about random ass shit, and I love that.
01:48:22
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yeah, I would echo what Kaylee said as well. I'm so glad that we met on the ah two discords. And thank you guys so much for having me. It was like such a blast. And yeah, check out my art Insta if you want.
01:48:35
Speaker
yeah We'll link JM's Instagram in the show notes, but if Kaylee and JM have further readings that come across or anything they want to share later on, it will absolutely have its own section in the show notes as well, which I am, I'll say again, making a separate document that I'll link in the show notes because we have been running out of character room on Zencaster.
01:48:51
Speaker
i just wanted to say, guys, this is like book club representation because Amanda, Kaylee, kill yeah i belong to the same book club. Yeah. i love that for you all. It's going to be exciting meeting tomorrow. Oof.
01:49:06
Speaker
I was excited about this, but I think also a little stressed, baby's first time on a podcast. I did have a dream about it where you guys all appeared to my workplace during lunchtime to record the podcast at my work. And I was like, oh, I thought this was online. And also, wait, Lau, how did you get here? Like, what's going on? When did you fly here? I didn't. and then the podcast instead of being two hours it could only be 20 minutes because that was my lunch break and i was like i'm so sorry i this was a miscommunication so when i woke up i was like like jm it's just like book club everything's gonna be okay it's book club but it's okay like introvert social anxiety but i was like you know what this is just like book club though so you've been practicing the muscle yeah yeah
01:49:50
Speaker
all right y'all are great thank you so much for coming on thank you so much friendless thank you um i'm so glad this was not uh during jn's lunch break i'm also really glad about that actually yeah yeah this was nightmare and more relaxed thank you so much for listening to since turkey season you can find us on any of our socials we're on twitter slash axe threads and Instagram. You also can always email us at srspod at protonmail.com. And we love you so much. We will see you all next week. I don't know what topic we're covering. It'll probably be a great one though.
01:50:32
Speaker
The Women of Heated Rivalry. And you know what? We're covering the Women of
Community and Conclusion
01:50:36
Speaker
Heated Rivalry. It's going to be a great topic. Exactly. It's going be so fun. We've been talking about it and hyping this one up for so long. I'm really excited. That's a good book change. Svetlana.
01:50:46
Speaker
Yeah. Svetlana, bang my line. they can Do it right now. do it right now. man Let's go to a fleet game together. I love the fleet. Yes, I'll go to a PWHL game and kiss you on the kiss cam.
01:51:00
Speaker
Please. Yes! And they're in the playoffs, so it's even better. Like, Walter Cup, let's go! Let's go! Okay. All right. This is Synth Rookie Season. We'll see you all next week!
01:51:12
Speaker
Synth Rookie Season is created by Lauren, Lau, and Amanda. The cover art is edited by Lauren, Lau, and Amanda is our editor. Thanks listening!