Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Unplugged. Unplugged. Unplugged. Revisited.
Speaker: Greetings and salutations. Welcome back to Unplugged Revisited, the podcast that celebrates, critiques, and dives deep into the last three and a half decades of MTV Unplugged. I'm your host, music journalist, pop culture anthropologist, and Unplugged obsessive, Will Hodge.
Speaker: For this week's episode, I'm really stoked to have the opportunity to once again talk about Nirvana's mythical, magical, era-defining MTV Unplugged episode and album. While I did a standalone episode early on with Nirvana cellist Lori Goldston, and I bring it up in one way or another, on average, at least every other episode, I'm excited that today's show affords me the opportunity to address the band's renowned live acoustic performance from a slightly different vantage point.
Speaker: For this episode, I'm going to briefly swerve for my regular artist interview and intersection format to instead bring you a story about the forthcoming Kurt Cobain Unplugged exhibition that'll be running at London's Royal College of Music throughout the upcoming summer and fall.
Speaker: I've also got a really cool chat with the exhibit's curator, distinguished rock journalist Alan DiPerna, to dig even further into this incredible retrospective. The Kurt Cobain Unplugged exhibition will debut at the Royal College of Music on June 3rd and will run all the way through to November 18th.
Speaker: Tickets for available days can still be purchased via the Royal College of Music's website or directly from their box office via phone or email. While the exhibit will feature a plethora of Nirvana rarities, like original gig posters, some of Kurt's handwritten papers, limited edition vinyl still in its original shrink wrap, and other artistic ephemera, the two absolutely jaw-dropping pieces that are anchoring the Unplugged-centric show are Kurt's legendary Martin D18E acoustic guitar, which this will be the first time it has been on display in the UK, and his iconic olive green mohair cardigan, and this will be the first time these two items have ever been on display together anywhere.
Speaker: These are easily two of the most visually striking and immediately recognizable items associated not only with Nirvana's landmark unplugged episode and album, but also with the broader 90s pop cultural canon as well.
Speaker: And look, let me just address it up top. I know there are a wide variety of valid opinions about the nature of pop cultural historical artifacts, and how items like this are even procured, and who is and isn't served by their public presentation and commercialization, and all of that.
Speaker: I'm even more sensitive to the broad spectrum of opinions surrounding Kurt's unplugged acoustic, because not only is Nirvana one of my most internalized, deeply personal favorite bands, but also because the fraught backstory of how the guitar has changed hands over the years is just, to me at least, a little depressing.
Speaker: If you're not familiar with the whole story, I won't get into all of the nitty gritty details here, but just know the main story points are, after Kurt's death in 1994, the guitar was left to his daughter, Frances Bean Cobain.
Speaker: Many years later, in 2018, when Frances was in divorce proceedings with her first husband, the guitar was, shall we say, disappointedly, awarded to her ex-husband as part of the larger divorce settlement.
Speaker: And then, in 2020, it went up for public auction and astoundingly sold for a little over $6 million dollars to Australian entrepreneur and founder of Rode Microphones, Peter Friedman, making it the single most expensive guitar to ever be sold at auction.
Speaker: While Friedman seems like a nice enough dude, and it's cool that he seems intent on sharing the revered guitar with a larger audience by doing things like generously loaning it to the Royal College of Music for this exhibit, as a diehard Nirvana fan, and also just as, you know, an empathetic human being, it's really hard not to want to see this guitar safe and sound back in Francis' possession.
Speaker: But, I digress. Oh, and I should also note, London's Royal College of Music is about as legit of an institution as you could hope to see such a historical, culture-impacting guitar like this get an exhibition in.
Speaker: Their own collection includes around a thousand instruments dating from the late 15th century to the mid-20th century, including, and I quote, "...the oldest guitar in the world," which was built 1581 and has been in their possession since the That belongs museum! Okay, to set up my chat with DiPerna, instead of working up one of my typical Intersection-branded micro-histories, I'd like to contextualize our conversation by quickly discussing three overlapping and intertwining story points.
Speaker: First, the role of the acoustic guitar in popular music, pre- and post-unplugged. Second, Kurt's relationship to the acoustic guitar, leading up to and including Unplugged.
Speaker: And third, a very brief and broad-stroked look at pop culture memorabilia through the lens of the top 10 most expensive guitars sold at public auction. Which, it may surprise you to find out, mini spoiler alert, three of the top 10 spots are held by Kurt's guitars.
Speaker: But before we get into all that Nirvana-drenched fun and frivolity, let me take care of a few announcements. Announcement 1 I've gotten some really kind and encouraging responses to my last episode with Alice in Chains bassist Mike Inez.
Speaker: Even more so after some folks were maybe looking for a little commiseration after the band had to cancel some tour dates due to drummer Sean Kenny's health scare. So, first off, best wishes to him for a speedy recovery.
Speaker: But also, while I normally handle the listener mailbag stuff pretty sparingly, I did want to share a nice note about the episode from a listener named Kyle in California, who wrote, I just listened to your recent Alice in Chains episode, and I've got to say it was chef's kiss.
Speaker: I know Mike Inez was a nice guy, but man, he was the nicest guy ever. Thoughtful answers, and finally the friends don't let friends get friends' haircuts, mystery solved. Awesome work, man. You made my normal, boring commute to work an absolute treat.
Speaker: Dude, thank you so much for reaching out Kyle, and I'm so glad you enjoyed the episode. I gotta say, people letting me know they listen to the pod on their work commute, or at work, or while they're doing dishes, or exercising, or whatever, that is just one of the biggest compliments to me.
Speaker: Those individualized activities, as normal humdrum life moments as they are, are also, to me at least, sacred spaces where you could be listening to literally anything else.
Speaker: And I don't take it for granted whenever anyone chooses to share their valuable time with me and something I've created. So, my thanks to Kyle for the nice note, and also for everyone listening right now. Y'all are absolutely amazing, and you spending your time with the pod means the world to me.
Speaker: Announcement 2 This is just a friendly reminder that I'm running a CD and vinyl giveaway for the new enhanced edition of Eric Clapton's multiple Grammy-winning, 26 million-selling, unplugged album.
Speaker: It's an expanded 17-song collection featuring day-of interview snippets and some extra songs not included in the original broadcast and album. And it's being released in both double CD and triple vinyl versions.
Speaker: All you have to do to enter is send an email to unpluggedrevisited at gmail.com telling me one thing you like about Clapton's Unplugged episode or album. Put contest in the subject line and specify if you want to enter the CD or vinyl giveaway. And yes, you can totally send a separate email for each one.
Speaker: And as a bonus, you can double your chances by rating and reviewing the podcast wherever you stream it and attaching a screenshot of that to your email. Winners will be announced in the next episode.
Speaker: Announcement 3. And speaking of my next episode, which, by the way, is going to be an absolutely incredible when built around one of my most favorite and oft-referenced unplugged episode and albums of all time, so you're not going to want to miss it.
Speaker: Just a heads up that it will be functioning as my season 1 finale, followed by me taking the summer off to attend to some other shenanigans, and then returning with season 2 on September 3rd.
Speaker: I recommend procuring your sackcloth and ashes ahead of the rush, and please plan your downtime slash morning accordingly.
Speaker: Okay, in lieu of our regularly scheduled intersection, I'm going to contextualize my discussion with Alan DePerna about the Kurt Cobain Unplugged exhibit by quickly framing up that trio of interwoven, then-diagram topics I mentioned earlier.
Speaker: And again, these are very admittedly and intentionally broad-stroke in an effort to have them build upon each other as opposed to academically drilling down into each one individually. So please temper those, well actually, corrective emails if I skip over one or two of your personal favorite examples.
Speaker: Okay, first up, let's speed run through the role of the acoustic guitar in popular music pre and post-unplugged. When it comes to the acoustic guitar's place in the history of recorded popular music, its presence during the first half of the 20th century, especially in America, was mostly, but not exclusively, found in roots music genres.
Speaker: The blues, country, traditional folk, gospel, jazz, railroad songs, bluegrass, you know, those often regionalized of the people genres that are more handed down and passed around than focused around superstar making career fashioning commercialization.
Speaker: By the 1950s, the acoustic guitar was functioning as a foundational component in a lot of classic country, like Patsy
Speaker: As well as the rhythm and blues and rockabilly greats coming out of the Sun record scene, like Rufus Thomas, Elvis Presley, and the immortal Johnny Cash.
Speaker: During the decade, the acoustic guitar was also an integral element of Harry Belafonte's groundbreaking 1956 album, Calypso, which became the first ever full-length record to sell over a million copies, thanks to hit singles like Day-O, The Banana Boat Song, and Jamaica Farewell. My heart is down, my head is turning around, I had to leave a little girl in Kingston Town.
Speaker: In the 1960s, the acoustic guitar had a bit of a doubled-down cultural renaissance, thanks first to the mid-century folk revival taking place throughout the U.S. and the U.K., especially in the hands of traditional folk luminaries like Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, and the incomparable Odetta.
Speaker: I had no war this morning with my mind, but set on the free. and second, through the rise and the popularity of the acoustic-anchored folk rock scene, spearheaded by acts like The Byrds, Buffalo Springfield, and the Mamas and the Papas.
Speaker: Also during this period, the uber-transcendent and ever-evolving Beatles substantially pushed acoustic guitars to the front of their sound even more on their Help, Rubber Soul, and Revolver albums.
Speaker: Oh, should I say, she won't let me. During the 1970s, acoustic guitars became the star of the show for both the stripped-back singer-songwriter genre, like James Taylor, a now solo Paul Simon, and Joni Mitchell.
Speaker: Sitting in a park in Paris, friends, reading the news and it sure looks bad. They won't give peace a chance. That was just a dream some of us had. as well as the normally bombastic but occasional acoustic rabbit trails of hard rock, prog rock, and heavy metal acts like The Who, Yes, and most notably Led Zeppelin.
Speaker: But it was the 1980s when the acoustic guitar seemed like it was finally ready to strut its stuff all the way to the top of the mainstream pop charts. And while acoustic anchored genre acts like Violent Femmes, Indigo Girls, Graceland era Paul Simon, and Tracy Chapman were really making waves, and hard rock power ballads were covertly infiltrating radio, MTV, skating rinks, and mall food courts everywhere,
Speaker: By the mid to late 80s, the acoustic guitar was also showing up strong in mainstream Top 40 pop via some massive chart-topping Billboard Hot 100 No. 1s like George Michael's Faith in 1987, and Poison's Every
Speaker: poisons every Rose Has Its Thorn across late into early
Speaker: And this, of course, is when MTV Unplugged comes into the picture. Conceived and prepped across early 1989, its pilot episode taped and broadcast that October and November, and then its first four official episodes filmed in mid-December 89 and aired across January and February of 1990. Isn't it about time MTV pulled the plug?
Speaker: mtv unplug an all new halfhour special for music lovers this sunday watch differed tib brook of squeeze singer sit straw and host jewel shear throw away there handsome them get down to some great music up close and acoustic As Unplugged made its first big splashes with close episodes aired throughout the acoustic guitar was simultaneously showing up even more on the top forty pop charts with songs like Jon Bon Jovi's solo hit Blaze of Glory, Nelson's Can't Live Without Your Love and Affection, and Alana Miles' Black Velvet all spending time at number one throughout 1990. Black Velvet
Speaker: Over the next couple years, the hand-in-hand trend of Unplugged gaining traction and popularity on MTV, while acoustic-centric songs were apexing the mainstream pop charts and radio, continued in tandem, with Extreme's More Than Words becoming a massive number one hit in 1991.
Speaker: And Mr. Biggs' To Be With You, The Heights' How Do You Talk To An Angel, and Whitney Houston's cover of i Will always Always Love You, all hitting number one at different points across
Speaker: love you.
Speaker: And not for nothing, it should be noted that Whitney's acoustic chart topper remained at number one for 14 weeks, masterfully reigning atop the chart from late November 92 to late February 93. 1992 was also when Unplugged first transcended beyond its televised bonds to find additional mainstream successes via radio, retail, and the pop charts, when Mariah Carey's cover of I'll Be There from her Unplugged episode and EP hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100. Don't
Speaker: Over the next couple of years, various other Unplugged episodes also generated great acoustic-led successes with radio hits from Eric Clapton, 10,000 Maniacs, Jodeci, and Rod Stewart, as well as Clapton's multi-platinum, Grammy-winning Unplugged album, spending a few weeks at number one on the Billboard 200 album charts in 93, and Nirvana's multi-platinum, Grammy-winning Unplugged album, debuting at number one in 94. But I can't see you.
Speaker: I'll go just one more interrelated step further to say that 94 also saw the acoustic guitar lead the sonic charge on two more extremely notable mainstream musical milestones.
Speaker: First, in January, Alice in Chains' acoustic heavy Jar of Flies became the first ever EP to not just hit, but debut at number one on the Billboard 200 Albums chart.
Speaker: It's alright.
Speaker: And second, that summer, Lisa Loeb became the first ever artist without a record deal to hit number one on the Hot 100 with her surprise hit single, Stay, I Missed You.
Speaker: You say I only hear what I want to
Speaker: Now, I know as a society we have all agreed to the axiom that correlation doesn't imply causation, and I'm not at all saying that MTV Unplugged is solely responsible for all these acoustic forward songs suddenly hitting number one on the mainstream pop charts.
Speaker: However, There's no denying that the broader impact of the show and its popularization and expansive sonic showcase of the acoustic guitar across multiple genres unquestionably help to both freshly inspire artists and songwriters, as well as, and perhaps most importantly, also coolly instruct, inform, and reframe the way audiences, both casual and fan, receive and respond to quote-unquote acoustic music.
Speaker: Okay, I could keep harping on this point and stretch out the timeline into a few more years of the simpatico dance between Unplugged's cultural cool and acoustic forward top 40 pop chart toppers from acts like Bryan Adams, Blackstreet, Toni Braxton, and many others.
Speaker: But I'll just rest the defense here and move on to the next connected point. Kurt's relationship to the acoustic guitar leading up to and including Unplugged. Ok, again, another speedrun, snapshot approach to this one, but let's briefly look at how Kurt tastefully and judiciously employed the acoustic guitar in Nirvana's songwriting catalog over the band's all too brief window of output.
Speaker: For a band perhaps most known for their loud, unruly, livewire performances, I think Kurt's acoustic prowess really underscores the melodic intuition and intellect that fuels the core of his songwriting.
Speaker: As far as their trio of full-length studio albums, Bleach, their initially underrated debut album from 1989, perhaps not so surprisingly has zero acoustic songs.
Speaker: But never mind, their massively influential, culture-impacting follow-up from 1991 finds Kurt really unpacking a couple new corners of his songwriting genius with a pair of genuinely entrancing acoustic ballads.
Speaker: First up is Polly, a minor key, mostly solo acoustic number that Kurt recorded on a $31.23 Pawn Shop Stella
Speaker: Whose uniquely dry sound was made even more unconventional by the fact that A. It was a 12-string guitar curiously outfitted with just a standard six-pack of nylon strings.
Speaker: B. It was completely missing one of those strings. And C. Kurt didn't even change out the remaining five age-unknown ones. Second is Something in the Way, a deliciously moody, cello-enriched, full-band acoustic number that serves as the de facto album closer. Even though, since it was the 90s, Nevermind does have a secret hidden track, a cathartically raw noise jam called Endless Nameless that barrels into the room about 10 minutes after the end of Something in the Way.
Speaker: Something in the Way
Speaker: And then, on their final studio album, 1993's In Utero, there aren't really any, you know, proper acoustic numbers per se. But because Kurt recorded many of his vocals while playing that same pawn shop Stella, which was not mic'd up but can still occasionally be heard bleeding into Kurt's vocal mic, you can still hear some ghostly acoustic specters in songs like Dumb, All Apologies, and especially Penny Royalty.
Speaker: My time with everyone Now, for the majority of Nirvana fans at the time, this was pretty much all the acoustic Nirvana material that was available to dig into until their MTV Unplugged episode was broadcast in mid-December 93.
Speaker: And we'll get into that in just a moment. But when the band's phenomenal box set with the lights out was released in late 2004, the three-disc set included a surprising amount of acoustic material from a radio show and various home demos recorded across the early ninety s I won't catalog out everything here, but just to give you a little sampling, here's two representative snippets.
Speaker: First, here's Kurt playing a solo acoustic version of Lithium from a September 25, 1990, in-studio college radio show at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington.
Speaker: I'm so happy cause today
Speaker: And second, here's Kurt's solo acoustic home demo of one of my all-time favorite Nirvana songs, Sliver, recorded into a boombox in 1990.
Speaker: And then, of course, the jewel in the crown of any discussion of acoustic nirvana is their bewitching MTV Unplugged episode, first aired on MTV in mid-December 1993 and released as the multi-platinum, chart-topping, Grammy-winning album Unplugged in New York in November 1994. This is off our first record.
Speaker: Most people don't own it. During the impressively raw and compelling performance, fans of Nirvana's bombastic, explosive, feedback-drenched melodic muscle were treated to the band's pitch-perfect adaptability to the bare-bones musicality of Unplugged's acoustic sandbox.
Speaker: And man, did they deliver in spades on song after song after song. They brilliantly reframed their electrified originals.
Speaker: Elevated their small handful of already acoustic numbers.
Speaker: Instrumentally spiced up the set with accordion and cello.
Speaker: Invited some friends along to give Kurt the rare opportunity to just sing.
Speaker: and even gave a moment over to just Kurt and his guitar.
Speaker: And amidst all of the acoustic sonic spellcasting coming from every corner of the stage was the central convergence point of Kurt's arresting vocals and his inviting yet unorthodox acoustic guitar.
Speaker: Much like the 5-strings-on-a-12-string Stella Pawnshop acoustic that was a close companion during Kurt's songwriting, recording, and touring years, the acoustic he played on Unplugged defied convention across a few different parameters as well.
Speaker: You'll hear Alan DiPerna get into it more during our chat, but just to hit a few notes about Kurt's unplugged guitar here, it was a 1959 Martin D18E acoustic electric guitar, which was already a rare bird model before Kurt even got his hands on one and started tinkering with it.
Speaker: It was a right-handed guitar, which had to be switched over to Kurt's left-handed playing style, which, for the non-guitar players out there, is usually a pretty easy thing to spot when you see that a guitar's pickguard and volume and tone knobs are all upside down and not in the most intuitively usable spots.
Speaker: And, Kurt also tweaked its already unique sound even further to his own tonal predilections by first adding in a new sound hole pickup, and then also running it through an amplifier and a few of his FX pedals, like his trusty DS2 distortion pedal,
Speaker: and his shimmery electro-harmonic small clone chorus.
Speaker: And while some of Unplugged's most revered episodes are celebrated precisely for the pure, clean warmth of more traditional acoustic guitar tones, I think the irregular sonic descent of Kurt's Unplugged acoustic tonalities is one of the truest, most intoxicating, and most authentic musical statements to ever grace the Unplugged stage.
Speaker: My guilt!
Speaker: Tell me where did you sleep last night? Pop culture memorabilia through the lens of the top ten most expensive guitars sold at public auctions.
Speaker: Alright, this one will be brief, but I think it's contextually interesting. When we're talking about the often exorbitant price tags of pop culture memorabilia, and just as a reminder, the two anchor items of the upcoming Kurt Cobain Unplugged exhibit are a sweater that sold for over $330,000 in 2019 and a guitar that sold for over $6 million in 2020.
Speaker: There are quite a few factors that can shade the spectrum of opinions on this sort of thing. Whenever these stories show up in the news about how some item of historical pop-cultural significance is headed to auction, I think it's perfectly valid for us to start from a place of questioning skepticism.
Speaker: What is the nature of the item? Who is selling it? Is it a public or private sale? How did they come by possessing the item? Is the item's original owner of note involved in any way, or are they even still alive?
Speaker: I believe all of those types of questions and many more of their ilk are not only natural, but frankly necessary inquiries within the whole unwieldy realm of pop culture memorabilia.
Speaker: But for the purposes of our show today, i just want to take a broadly sweeping glance at the practice through the singular lens of the top 10 most expensive guitars to be sold at auction, of which Kurt's unplugged acoustic sits decidedly unchallenged at the very top by a significant margin.
Speaker: Now, for most folks who hear a phrase like the top 10 most expensive guitars sold at auction, conventional reasoning probably elicits images of rock god royalty, seasoned, technically proficient electric guitar virtuosos known for their complex playing styles and fiery solos, and their trusted instruments of choice from across decades of a career spent recording and touring.
Speaker: And to be sure, half of the top 10 do fall into that category. David Gilmour's 54 No. 1 Strat which sold for million $1.9 million in 2017.
Speaker: jerry garcia's custom wolf guitar at number eight sold for one point nine million and twenty seventeen The guitar at number 6, while being a bit of an anomaly, would probably fall into this category as well, as it was a Fender Strat signed by a legion of rock gods that sold for $2.7 million at a charity auction to benefit the victims of the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami.
Speaker: And then there's one of Eddie Van Halen's Red and White Kramers at number 4, sold for $3.93 million in 2023. And then David Gilmore's famous Black Strat at number 3, sold for $3.97 million in 2019.
Speaker: In fact, if you extend the list out just a bit wider, three of the guitars in the 11 through 15 spots are held by the same caliber of virtuoso rockers, one from Eric Clapton and two from Jeff Beck.
Speaker: But the other half of the top 10 is really interesting, to me at least, because 1. number one All five spots are held by just two musicians, Kurt Cobain and John Lennon. 2. Neither of those individuals are necessarily considered prototypical rock god guitar wizards. 3. guitars, for the most part, are tied not to the span of their careers, but to specific singular events that are part of a larger visual component.
Speaker: And 4, surprising to me at least, 3 of the 5 are acoustics. Okay, I feel like I'm holding in a sneeze, so let me quickly show you what I mean by finishing out that top 10 list.
Speaker: At number 10, Kurtz 93 Fender Mustang, most associated with Nirvana's last show on March 1st, 1994, which sold for million
Speaker: John Lennon's 1962 Gibson J160E acoustic from the Beatles movie A Hard Day's Night, which sold for $2.4 million in 2015.
Speaker: number five 5. John Lennon's Hootenanny 12-string acoustic from the Beatles' other movie Help, which sold for $2.8 million in 2024.
Speaker: At number 2, Kurt's 1969 Fender Mustang from the Smells Like Teen Spirit music video, which sold for $4.5 million in 2022. And sitting atop the list by roughly a $1.5 million dollar gap is Kurt's 1959 Martin D18E acoustic that he nonchalantly altered the cultural and musical landscape with on Unplugged, which sold for a little over $6 million 2020.
Speaker: Do you want to hear even more about this mystical tool of musical transcendence? This incredibly important piece of pop culture history? This insanely mythically cool cultural artifact that will soon be on display at London's Royal College of Music in the Kurt Cobain Unplugged exhibition running this summer and fall?
Speaker: Well, if you do, then here's my Unplugged Revisited chat with the exhibition's curator, renowned music journalist and rock historian, Alan DePerna. I'm incredibly excited to chat with my guest today, renowned music journalist Alan DiPerna, about his curation work on the brand new Kurt Cobain Unplugged exhibit running throughout the summer and fall at the Royal College of Music in London.
Speaker: Thank you so much for joining the show to talk Unplugged with me today, Alan. Oh, my pleasure. For listeners who may be hearing about this exhibit for the first time, can you start off by telling us a little bit about the items visitors can expect to encounter, most notably the two legendary pieces that will be anchoring the whole thing?
Speaker: Okay, yeah, you're right. You know, the big guns of the exhibition are are definitely the Martin D-18E guitar, acoustics. episode, but in the in the final year of his life, I believe he used this to some live shows.
Speaker: Courtney Love says that it's the last guitar that Kurt ever played. We also have the concerto
Speaker: it's got cigarette it burns it's got some kind of scenein in the pop pocket it's missing a button. Again, it's an item that was literally close to Curt in the final year of his life. a costume historian described it as ah as a security blankt of a sweater for car so those are the two main items and this is the first time that they'll be viewed together in this exhibition, and also the first time the guitar will be seen in England, and indeed seen anywhere other than Australia.
Speaker: So around that, we've we've curated a selection of items. We have a few items that are in Kurt's own hand, lyric sheets, of a brief note to an early manager, and a poster that that kurt designed himself for not only long it's one of many collectible posters that we also have to the exhibition. One too was by the collector of Oliver Lawson.
Speaker: It also provided us with a ah generous collection of collectible vinyls, you know, rare editions, limited editions, things like that. oh and and taking a closer look at at the guitar itself and what makes it unique we've we've got the soundboard section the top guitar portion from a comparable model to Kurtz. So you can actually look inside, see the kick-up assembly, and we compare that with a traditional Martin guitar. We also have the top portion from a traditional Martin guitar.
Speaker: So you can see what was involved in electrifying the instrument. action nineteen fifty nine maybe a little geey for some but i i think figure guitar myself that. we' appreciate that And we've got some audiovisual content as well, including some excerpts from an interview that I did Pat Smear, where he talks about playing on Unplugged and talks about his time with Nirvana a little bit. Probably part of the audiovisual content. But also, there'll be a display case devoted to the phenomenon of collecting Nirvana itself. you know It's a bit of an obsession for some people. Nirvana themselves are a bit of a
Speaker: cultural con obsession global baseball so We'll be looking at that phenomenon as well. The exhibition is very much focused Unplugged and topics surrounding Unplugged, things that contextualize New York New York.
Speaker: That whole collection sounds just absolutely amazing. Like, I really do hope that I'm actually going to be able to make my way out there to see it myself. But, you know, it is no secret that Kurt's unplugged guitar and the cardigan, those are the absolute standouts of that exhibit.
Speaker: What's the backstory on how this whole project came together around this iconic pair of pop culture artifacts, as well as how you came to be involved in it? Well, it all began with the guitar, which was which was purchased at ah an auction for $6.1 million dollars by a gentleman named Peter Friedman, who's the CEO of Rode Microphone, a very prestigious microphone brand.
Speaker: He's also a supporter of the Royal College of Music, the Australian branch, and he visited the London branch and was shown around, and he was struck by a guitar that they have in their collection which is the earliest known guitar wow anywhere 1518, I believe, a Portuguese instrument. So, you know, seeing this and having acquired this historic Cobain guitar, he thought the museum would be a good venue to, you know, to share the instrument with the world.
Speaker: He definitely bought the guitar with the intention of sharing it with fans, putting it on exhibition. but believe any any proceeds from his end will be donated to music education and things like that Peter left the car and the job became, okay, how do we how do we build a show around this? So I was contacted by by the museum's curator, Gabrielle Rossi-Rognoini.
Speaker: The Royal College of Music is principally a classical music institution. This is their first rock exhibition. Gabrielle's background um is... You needed a sort of rock expert. And I've been bouncing around the museum world, the music museum world for a while.
Speaker: I consulted with the Metropolitan Museum of Art on their 2016 exhibition, Play It Loud, which was named after a book that I co-wrote. So I came kind of highly recommended to Gabriel. He brought me on board. And my first thought was, OK, we have the guitar. I know about the auction. by which the guitar was acquired.
Speaker: But I also remembered the cardigan, the sweater, which also sold for a record price at auction. Now, that went to an anonymous buyer who does not want to be identified.
Speaker: But I just happened to know Darren Julian at Julian's auctions. And I wrote him an email, a kind of a Hail Mary pass, saying, i don't know but is there a way to get you know to get a message to the buyer to see if he or she would be interested in lending the sweater to the exhibition and, you know, thinking that the snowball's chance in hell, basically. But the word came back that, indeed, the owner would be willing to lend us the sweater. So we got that.
Speaker: And, you know, as I said, it was a matter of contextualizing those items, building a show around that. all Oliver Lawson is somebody who Gabrielle was associating with. He, he, came forward with the posters, things like that. I got in touch with Martin Guitars.
Speaker: They were able to provide some material. The Museum of Popular Culture in Seattle, which has an incredible nirvana collection there they are able to build the out with some items So that's how it's come together.
Speaker: That's amazing. that That sounds like such an incredible collection. Just hearing you talk, I was also curious. I remember when the stories around the auction came out, I remember reading that the guitar case also had some extra items in it. There were like some extra picks and like a half used pack of strings and like a suede stash bag, all this little stuff.
Speaker: Are those items on display as well that that came with the guitar case? Absolutely, yes. They'll be on display. Yeah, they were two or three picks. They'll be pretty standard picks if you're a guitar player, but but but the fact that they're card sticks makes them special.
Speaker: There's a set of strings. There's a small pouch with three miniature knife, fork, and spoon. I think they're lapel pins. There's like a pin on the back to attach them to the lapel. What are you doing? with those is a gift that was given to him.
Speaker: yeah I don't know. The case is personalized with a sticker from the band Poison idea that I believe Nirvana played a date with. So yes, those items will also be on this display and and are are kind of fascinating in and of themselves. I mean, about all of this stuff just really helps create an intimate intimate connection with with Kurt. That's amazing. i'm I'm hoping to one day see a picture of that bag. i've I've heard it referenced in so many articles, but I've never actually come across a picture of it myself. So I'm so glad that's a part of the collection as well, just from selfish curiosity as well.
Speaker: Yeah, no, it's it's it' definitely the kind of item where you scratch your head and say, well, what's the story in this guitar chase? Right, exactly. It seems so weird and also so apropos both.
Speaker: Very cool. Well, let's talk a little bit about the uniqueness of Kurt's unplugged guitar. The Martin D18E itself, even before Kurt played it, is a pretty unusual and rare piece of acoustic guitar history.
Speaker: Can you tell us the story of that specific model and how Kurt customized his even further into sort of peculiar nonconformity? AT&E was first marketed in 1959. In 1959, you have to realize the world is going crazy for electric guitars.
Speaker: You know, let's see a lot of iconic Gibson models came out, and Fender, etc., etc. Martin wanted to get into the electric game, but they're primarily an acoustic guitar manufacturer, probably the foremost flat-top steel string acoustic guitar manufacturer in the world.
Speaker: So they took their very popular D18 acoustic model and fitted it out with two electric take-ups. They had to add some extra bracing in order to control the feedback.
Speaker: So the model was not that successful because in order to electrify it, it compromised the
Speaker: on just the finest acoustic guitar sound you can get. The model didn't catch on. Consequently, only 302 were ever manufactured. Wow.
Speaker: so that So that makes it rare right there. Kurtz, we're pretty sure that Kurtz was the seventh production model b atv to roll off the assembly wall wow Yeah, and and there's an interesting little little journey there in a way.
Speaker: We know when it left the Martin factory, i in I believe March of 1959. We don't know what happened from there, but some three decades later, it it turned up in a pawn shop in Alabama, where it was purchased by a gentleman named Roy Chie, the owner of the Voltage Guitar Shop and in LA.
Speaker: He bought it, and he's the one who all that you ah so now when kurt got it as as as As you've indicated, it it needed to be modified for a left-handed playing. Kirk was a left-handed player, so a few things needed to be done. He had to reverse the strings for left-handed playing, and that meant that they had to modify the nod of the guitar, and they had to modify the bridge, too. so the strings would sit securely in those slots those are most sloed pieces of delrin or plastic or bone.
Speaker: And most importantly, a Bartolini pickup was added to the sound hall by Kurt's guitar tech, Ernie Bailey, a 3AV.
Speaker: So it's really a free pickup instrument as it exists. and curideation so it's so yeah so it's so it's totally neat beauty in that regard its It's one of 203 and that one is unlike any other D18E that's out there. Yeah, it's like one of a kind across 12 different parameters.
Speaker: Well, by all measures of like technical quality and fidelity, Kurt's wasn't a quote-unquote traditional sounding acoustic, even more so when he ran it through a couple effects pedals and an amplifier.
Speaker: So what are your thoughts on how this specific guitar fit into the Nirvana sound and aesthetic and creative ethos, as opposed to if Kurt had played, you know, the exact same unplugged set on a, ah for lack of a better word, conventional acoustic?
Speaker: I like to say that the guitar... that the guitar is an outcast like church himself the you know im its its one of it's one of a kind It's a distinctive, unique instrument.
Speaker: I think why it was good for Unplugged is that with the Bartolini, it's got a credible acoustic sound. It sounds like an acoustic guitar, but yet, as you say, it was amped up and effects were included, Manus of the World, for instance, you can really hear the pedals there.
Speaker: It works pretty well as an electric guitar. It it says it heads to the ear, this is an electric guitar. So out of that one a guitar, he was able to get everything he needed for the show. and you know and the Other people who have done Unplugged and switched between different guitars and things like that. Kurt was able to get everything that he needed at and out of that one instrument. So true. ah You make an incredible point there. Sometimes on episodes of Unplugged, you see a guitarist play multiple guitars throughout the single show, but him just using that exact same guitar for every single song in the set, but yet it has so many different textures and colors to it.
Speaker: It's amazing he was able to get so much out of you know such a unique piece like that. Yeah, yeah. It's it it's true and he was cheating a little bit, but but the way I see it is that while the performance was not on unplugged. It was an intimate performance. It was ah itru stripped away a lot of production values and and we get to the raw essence of her songwriting and also to the raw essence of the songs, you know, the cover songs that he chose that influenced him, that shaped his sensibility. So yeah I think it was an ideal guitar for the gig in a lot of ways.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. So true. I also wanted to ask you a couple questions about the curious process that happens around certain popular instruments transforming into these top dollar display quality showpieces.
Speaker: First question, and and this one has an admittedly long windup. There's something incredibly interesting to me about the overall nature of the collection of guitars that have sold for the most at auction.
Speaker: Many of them sort of make sense from a technically proficient guitarist standpoint. You know, like there's one of Eddie Van Halen's red and white striped Kramers. David Gilmore has two guitars in the top 10. There's Jerry Garcia and Jeff Beck, etc.,
Speaker: But the number one and number two spots are both held by Kurt. His Fender Mustang from the Smells Like Teen Spirit music video sold for over four and a half million. And as you've already mentioned, his unplugged acoustics sold for over six million.
Speaker: So from your seasoned music journalist viewpoint, what does it say about Kurt specifically as a guitarist for two of his guitars to sort of outsell all these other, you know, rock god guitarists that are on that list?
Speaker: like I think probably the closest analogy I can make is John Lennon, who is not a technically proficient guitarist on the on the level of of an Eric Clapton or a Jeff Beck, you know, certainly a really good rhythm guitarist.
Speaker: I think at a certain point when you get a figure that iconic, technical proficiency just becomes another consideration. You also have to consider that within within the grunge era, Kurt Cobain was ah an incredible the watery chorus verses that give way to explosive choruses, super distorted, the way he incorporates influences from metal, punk, even a little bit of dream pop, in a way he anticipated you know the dream pop thing.
Speaker: I think he was he was an influential player in that way for a lot of people who were coming up then. Guitar virtuosity is... largely a seventy s phenomenon maybe an eighty s phenomenon I think as we move into the 90s, that becomes a little bit less central, or it becomes focused on a specific type of players, you know, shred players like like so Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, people like that. But as far as the mainstream ah rock culture dogs
Speaker: Kevin Shields with My Bloody Valentine, you know, they're they're not riffmeisters. But yet what they're doing is so intriguing and so compelling that each of those players that I named reinvented the electric guitar in their own way. So yeah i think I think the value lies in that kind of perspective. And also just the pop culture superstar phenomenon. I mean, Kurt Cobain is now in a class with elvis tresley i don't know marilyn monroe people like that so
Speaker: that's going to add a lot of cash value as well I love your answer. It makes me think of guitarists like Peter Buck as well from R.E.M. Like so many people, they they get really thorny if you say that Peter Buck wrote a quote unquote riff, you know, because they're like, it's not technically riffs, but you're like, no one plays like Peter Buck as much as they think they do.
Speaker: It is a riff in and ah unto itself. but yeah Yeah, definitely. if you're a young If you were a young player and in that period, and you know, these are the guitarists you would have emulated. So true.
Speaker: Well, second question about, you know, what we can kind of glean from this grouping of most expensive guitars sold at auction. While most of the guitars on the list have more to do with their extended association to a guitarist's, like, larger career arc,
Speaker: It seems like Kurt's list topping pair are very much associated with two highly specific visual moments, those being, you know, a music video and a televised acoustic performance.
Speaker: To you, what does that say about the nature of this whole art becoming artifacts process whenever they turn into these museum quality pieces? so like i think it speaks to the...
Speaker: long-standing and and incredibly powerful but relationship between rock andball and roll and the visual media, video, television, films.
Speaker: From the beginning, the Elvis Presley, El Nino Sullivan show, you know, the Alan Freed rock and roll movies. Rock and roll arguably could not have existed without but visual media without television and everything yeah so i think that these momentous historic visual performances have a lot of impact because because they're durable. Unlike unlike the live performance, which is here and gone and only only viewed by people who were in the hall at the time, things that are captured on on on video become works of art in and of themselves. you know yeah
Speaker: the beatles on the on the roof of Apple Music playing the final concert. i mean that's you know These moments like this are so much a part of the cultural fabric. and i think any physical object that's that's associated with with one of those iconic moments is is is going to be something that's that's treasured by a lot of people and therefore something that's going to command a high-priced auction. Yeah.
Speaker: And it's so nice to see things like that be sort of, like you said, intended to be shared with the public because people that are paying this much for guitars, they, of course, they can do whatever they want with them.
Speaker: But there are a lot of people that buy these items and then it might not make it out of their house or out of their office or things like that. And unless you know these people, you're never going to see it apart from maybe a picture, you know, in an article or something.
Speaker: So I do think that's an extra incredibly cool component of this being attached to Kurt's guitar to actually go on exhibit, not just what you guys are doing in London over the summer and fall, but maybe some potential future plans as well. So I really, I really love that y'all are doing that.
Speaker: yeah that's great. It's good. ah superior friedman definitely sorry generosity Yeah, perfect. I've asked you a few questions about what Kurt's Unplugged guitar can tell us about Kurt himself, but I'm also curious what you think the massive cultural interest around the guitar and its $6 million dollars price tag can also tell us about the pop cultural impact and legacy of MTV Unplugged, both the specific Nirvana episode and album, as well as the whole arc of the show itself, especially throughout its popular ninety s run.
Speaker: Right, yeah. Well, MTV Unplugged was, it interests me because from the start with, you know, Jules Shear, the earliest shows, it was a songwriter's medium, definitely. A chance the chance to get into the guts of songs and, again, strip away all the production values and things like that. in a way, it was it became a sort of proving ground for the artists, you know, people people who are on the top of the chart.
Speaker: you do in this in this somewhat more challenging setting this is somewhat more and more intimate setting So I think it became like a sort of red bed of courage in a way for artists to do on projects. It always reminded me a little bit of the Nashville tradition where songwriters would sit around in a circle with their acoustic guitars and say, hey, this is my new song, what do you think? Now, of course, these people are largely playing hits and things like that. So it's not...
Speaker: Do you have a ah favorite unplugged episode or ones that you think are maybe super notable or super underrated, anything like that? I think the favorite for me being a baby boomer and being a Beatles fan, is McCartney. You know, that was that was just incredible. And and the fact that he that he took the brief literally, he did unplug. He didn't use acoustic guitars that are fitted with a pickup. You know, it's all microphones and everything.
Speaker: I think I remember Linda McCartney playing a harmonium. I think she might have had a foot-pumped harmonium. Just really interesting. and you know and A chance to you know don' feel closer to McCartney when he went into something like things. we said today You know, he's just like, you know, I'm 13 Right. Or to hear him forget the words so we can work it out and be like, oh, he is actually human as well. Not just an otherworldly musical giant. He's also a human being.
Speaker: yeah yeah and the fact that you know you know he wrote these songs yeah these the songs that ah guy sat down in in his living room or whatever with an approve guitar sold into into existence so yeah that would be that was a powerful one That's good. I love that you're calling that one out. On a few episodes, I've talked about how, you know, across the spectrum of Unplugged, I see McCartney on one end, because like you're saying, he didn't even plug in his acoustics. He just had mics in front of him picking it up.
Speaker: And then the other end of that poll is ah Bruce Springsteen, because his Unplugged just essentially seemed like, I think he played acoustic on maybe two songs, maybe three. Him just having completely electric band and playing electric guitars, you're like, okay, Bruce.
Speaker: But yeah, it's it's good. I love that you mentioned McCartney. That's a great one. You know, for me, this whole conversation also sort of brings to mind Eric Clapton's Unplugged and the Martin 00042 that he played that was sold at auction for almost $800,000 back in 2004.
Speaker: That was a record for an acoustic guitar at that time, which of course has since been surpassed by Cobain, and there's a couple you know John Lennon acoustics on the list as well. you know Of course, Clapton played more than one guitar during his Unplugged, but also his Unplugged album is still the best-selling live album of all time, and he's in top-tier, revered rock god status.
Speaker: So I was curious, in juxtaposing those two famously auctioned Unplugged guitars, what do you think it is that has imbued Cobain's Unplugged guitar with so much more mystique and cultural cachet than Clapton's has?
Speaker: Yeah. In a word, death. I think we have to factor in that any great musician who passes away at at an early age, at the magic of late 20s,
Speaker: or johnnics jolin or they just become more precious to people because they're no longer here and they were cut off before they really got to fully have their say as ah as a as a creative artist. So I think that lends a lot of weight to Kurt Tarr and and also also the timing of Unplugged. It aired yeah just just four months before his passing.
Speaker: ah it was very fresh in people's minds. And I can remember when he passed, I remember that MTV and that that un the constant rotation. Absolutely.
Speaker: This is before the internet era. if If you wanted to, I don't know, breathe, if you wanted to feel close to Kurt, or if you wanted to just get some news or something, you know, you you would have tuned into MTV and you would have seen this show. So it's it's it's it's really burned into some tender part of Rock's collective consciousness.
Speaker: That's such a ah good point. I was literally had just turned 14 the month prior and MTV like was the place to go, you know, not, not understanding what to do with that gut punch of a moment.
Speaker: Just being able to sit in the atmosphere of that sort of security blanket, I think was an important thing for, for countless nineties teens like myself. That's a, that's a very good point.
Speaker: Well, to to close things out, circling back to the Kurt Cobain Unplugged Museum exhibit, as the curator, what do you hope visitors might experience while they're there? And what new understandings or emotions, if any, do you hope that they ah walk away with? Certainly a sense of being closer, feeling a closeness to Kurt, feeling like you've been able to get inside his head a little bit with you know you know and some of some of the handwritten materials and the instrument c these very personal artefacts we hope that it forges a connection to cur with fanns who love them
Speaker: And also to more more casual viewers who might not be the biggest fans in the world. I sincerely that they'll learn more about Nirvana and that their curiosity will be key so that they'll want to go go back and maybe check out some some recordings or some videos and things like that yeah actually to remember that The Royal College of Music Museum has a viewership of lots of classical people. So we are going to going to be getting people who are not rock fans. And we wanted to make sure that the exhibition was resonant for them, too. in In writing the exhibition text, I've been very careful to not exclude people like that. For example, but I use the term E.T. in a text. You and I know what it is. but
Speaker: But the college didn't. So I thought, okay, this is an extended play record. It's right what it's longer than a single, but it's shorter than a long play. So I want to bridge the gap so that this is so this is like Nirvana's music, like Kirk. Something for everybody.
Speaker: Oh, what a beautiful sentiment. I love that. That's amazing. Well, Alan, it's been such a pleasure talking with you about the legacy and ongoing story of Kurt's Unplugged guitar. I appreciate you taking the time to join the show today and best of luck with the Kurt Cobain Unplugged exhibit this summer and fall.
Speaker: Thank you, Will. Yeah, thank you for having me. Man, it's always a fun day for me when I get to talk Nirvana's Unplugged, and it was so cool to hear even more about how awesome the Kurt Cobain Unplugged exhibition sounds like it's going to be.
Speaker: For any listeners in the UK planning to check out the exhibit in person, please feel free to email me your thoughts and experiences. I'm not only very curious about it, but I'm also not exactly sure if the Chicago to London Trek will be in the cards.
Speaker: But who knows? We'll see what happens. Okay, another Unplugged Revisited in the books. Don't forget, I'm running that Eric Clapton Unplugged Deluxe Reissues CD and Vinyl giveaway, so make sure to get your entries in for that.
Speaker: And if you want to connect with the show for any questions, corrections, or anything else, you can always email me, unpluggedrevisited at gmail.com, or leave a voicemail by calling 234-REVISIT or reaching out on social media.
Speaker: As always, please take a moment to follow the pod on your platform of choice so that it'll automatically pop into your feed when it goes live. I'll be back in two weeks with my season one finale, and I'll be digging into one of the most phenomenal, most engaging, and most enjoyable Unplugged episodes of the show's entire run.
Speaker: I'm really, really stoked for it. I hope you'll be able to make it. And if you do, I promise you won't be alone because, well, let's just say I'll be there. Until then, my friends, be kind to yourself and look out for each other.
Speaker: Unplugged Revisited is a Son of a Butch production. The show is written and hosted by me, Will Hodge. The show is edited by Amanda Hodge and myself. Podcast artwork is by Jordan Ullam, and you can find more of their incredible work at jordanullam.design.
Speaker: That's J-O-R-D-A-N-U-L-L-O-M.design. That is the beauty of Unplugged.
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