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00:00:01
E043 Molly Bish
1.7k Plays5 years ago
Just 8 days earlier, 16-year-old Molly Bish had begun working as a lifeguard, excited to help children learn to swim and to potentially save lives. No one realized that it was Molly’s life that would be at risk.
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Transcript
Engaging with Listeners and Community Shoutouts
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello everyone. Welcome back to Coffee and Cases this week. We are so glad to have you with us. I am in a great mood today because I've been having conversations with so many of you on Facebook, getting suggestions for lots of cases to be covered in the next couple of months, and joining some new cold cases Facebook groups.
00:00:23
Speaker
and I wanna give a shout out to a couple of those people. If you love not only hearing about cold cases, but also reading about them, check out Lauren Claire Johnson's Facebook group called Cold Case Discussion Group, and check out Alana Keegan's Facebook group called Buried Cold Cases. On either of those, you can share your favorite cold cases, hear about other documentaries and podcasts,
00:00:50
Speaker
and just share your passion and your theories.
Listener Connection and Gratitude
00:00:52
Speaker
Message our Coffee and Cases podcast Facebook page if you'd like a link to those groups. Both Lauren and Alana are awesome ladies whom I've messaged recently who have the same purpose that Maggie and I do, to get these stories out there, to not let memories fade. I just really feel like part of one big family and I love that.
00:01:13
Speaker
Especially since, trust me, right now, I know that those of you out there with kids or who work in education are feeling me. It has been a stressful last couple of weeks and it will be a stressful next few weeks. With it being so hard to juggle everything, it makes those moments of connection all the more special and it makes it even more meaningful to Maggie and me that you've taken time out of your day to join us again.
00:01:39
Speaker
So please continue to listen, to share, to reach out to us, and to show your support. Until everything can return to normal, take care of yourselves. Please don't lose faith. Continue to love one another, and to know that with each other, we will get through this. Stay together, Sleuthhounds, and stay safe.
Serial Killers and Modern Life
00:01:56
Speaker
Now, onto this week's episode.
00:01:58
Speaker
This week I read a really interesting article in The Atlantic. It was published in October of 2019 and is entitled, Modern Life Has Made It Easier for Serial Killers to Thrive. The article mentions a stark irony. The conception that it's harder today to get away with murder is both true and false.
00:02:19
Speaker
It is true that the overall number of serial killers has plummeted because of better investigation strategies, security cameras, harsher prison sentences, and better forensic testing. However, modern society for those serial killers still at large has also created more opportunity for murder.
00:02:40
Speaker
According to the article, today, quote, 40% of the time, murderers get away with murder, end quote. The reason why from the article? Learning from the mistakes of past killers. Lack of resources available to law enforcement to actually take advantage of forensic opportunities. Greater social isolation. You can order a pizza online now instead of going into a pizza shop, making victims more vulnerable.
00:03:10
Speaker
And I would add having greater chance of sharing personal information online and others being able to access it, i.e.
Misconceptions About Serial Killers
00:03:19
Speaker
someone being able to look on your Facebook page and know when you're on vacation, where you're on vacation, with whom you're on vacation, etc. But the most significant reason in the article
00:03:31
Speaker
Social mobility. Our ability to travel. And according to the article, some jobs make it easier for killers to go undetected. For example, there's a lot more opportunity to get away with a crime if you're a truck driver. Sorry to truck drivers out there. Yours was a career mention in the article.
00:03:50
Speaker
versus a gas station attendant who's constantly on camera with customers coming in. But regardless of opportunity, we seldom know who they are, especially at first glance. The problem is that most of the time, and some studies suggest this, that we pass by in our lifetime upwards of 20 murderers without even realizing it.
00:04:16
Speaker
Why? Because they look like us. Most are not loners, but have families, friends, jobs, routines, just like us.
Podcast Growth and Listener Encouragement
00:04:29
Speaker
And despite that article in the Atlantic that makes it sound like all serial killers are roaming lonely interstates looking for his or her next victim, that's not usually the case. The article only argues that those jobs make it easier to get away with a crime.
00:04:45
Speaker
According to an article in Scientific American, most serial killers or even serial criminals work in a defined geographic location, a comfort zone, leading to the reliance on people like geographic profilers. Again, this could be the woman you just saw at the grocery store. Maybe you didn't even give her a second glance. But as in our case today, what if you did give a second glance?
00:05:14
Speaker
Just what if you looked right into the eyes of the person who you now think could have been responsible for the death of your child? Would you know it? Would you get that body tingling feeling? Or would you just smile as you do while passing every other person you see that day, naive to the terrors that would later haunt your dreams? And if you did feel terror, would it even make a difference?
00:05:40
Speaker
The answers to those questions are at the very center of our case today. This is the story of Molly Ann Bish.
00:06:24
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement.
00:06:40
Speaker
So justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because, as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive.
00:06:56
Speaker
So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Molly Ann Bish's Family Background
00:07:01
Speaker
Okay guys, so at the risk of sounding like a broken record, before we really get into the show, we want to remind you about the challenge that we have going. We want to get 150 ratings on Apple Podcasts, and we can only get there with help from you guys. To help us, please share our podcast with at least two people this week.
00:07:21
Speaker
And then we will be able to reach our goal a little bit quicker. And if you're a long time listener, you know, this has been a goal that we have been talking about for a very long time and we are like tantalizingly close. I know that some of you out there have been hard at work.
00:07:36
Speaker
helping us get there because we have seen the up picks in our listenership. Shout out to Oklahoma. You have been amazing and then also abroad in Ireland and Singapore. We see you guys and we welcome you to Coffee and Cases. So if you haven't taken a second to rate the show, you still can. And if you have a few seconds longer, also leave us just a few words about what you enjoyed most about the podcast. Those like our little stars during the week when we get those.
00:08:06
Speaker
When we get to the 150 ratings, Allison and I will do another bonus episode for you. Just make sure that you follow us on social media, that's at Coffee and Case's podcast on Facebook, or at Coffee Case's podcast on Instagram, or as always, listen in each week to know when that bonus episode will air. So for real, we're going to get to the show.
00:08:26
Speaker
As I was doing the research for this week's case, Maggie, I was struck by a sad similarity with the Keddie murders case that we covered several months back. Just like with the Keddie family, the Bisch family, and our story today, they had been living in the big city of Detroit and had moved to the stayed rural town of Warren, Massachusetts, which is about 40 minutes drive east of Springfield, Massachusetts.
00:08:56
Speaker
thinking it was a much safer place to raise their young children. You know, because we think like a small town. Yeah, safe, right? Molly's parents, her father John, who was a probation officer, her mother Maggie. Oh, I know. I thought you'd like that. Yeah. Her brother. Unless she does something bad. No, she doesn't. No, no, no. Her brother John Jr., sister Heather, and Molly herself settled in quickly into Warren.
Molly's Job and the Fateful Day
00:09:26
Speaker
And Maggie also soon after decided that she would like to be a stay-at-home mom to spend more time with her children. Me too. To spend more time with my cats and dogs. Yes. And by the way, we have a guest with us right now. Maggie's cat, Aries. Yes. We're recording at my house today and he's currently laying in my lap. So any weird noises you hear?
00:09:47
Speaker
is the guest star today. You're a per. Yeah. He agrees with everything we say. And from everything I read, this was a loving family. Like the kind where they know each other well and where the siblings look out for each other. Some families sadly aren't like that. Oh, yeah. No, it's sad. But this one was. Molly herself, as her mother stated in an interview with WWLP News 22, was a lot like me.
00:10:15
Speaker
quiet around those who she didn't know very well, but then super silly and goofy around her close friends. She was both an honors student in school and she was athletic. That's not me. She played soccer, softball, and basketball. Wow! She had a packed schedule. She was a busy girl. So she kept up with her schoolwork, with sports, a social life. She had just started dating a young man in her school whom she had gone to prom with.
00:10:45
Speaker
And now the summer of 2000 she wanted to start a part-time job as well. Okay, you go Molly. Add another thing. The job that she wanted was at a local pond called Cummins Pond and luckily she had an inn. Her older brother John Jr. had been a lifeguard at the pond for three years. I don't swim in ponds or lakes.
00:11:12
Speaker
I mean I would do the like if I could jump off from a boat but like just to walk in it's too squishy and it just grosses me out. Well it's funny that you mentioned that because Molly herself was known her mom said she didn't like the feel of it on her feet so she'd always wear shoes into the water. Oh maybe I should try that.
00:11:31
Speaker
So, her brother decided he would help her out. He showed her the ropes. He showed her how to set up the lifeguard stand, how to comb the beach, how to look for snakes. I'm out on that part. That is the one thing that scares me about the lake. Anytime I get near the shore, I'm like, oh, what if there are snakes over there? Let's stay away. So, as you can imagine, with that kind of preparation, she was pretty much a shoo-in for the job. Yeah, she basically knew everything already going in.
00:12:00
Speaker
And so mom Maggie and Molly started developing a morning routine. Since Molly was only 16 at the time, Maggie would get up with Molly. They would drive to the local police station to pick up a two-way radio that was to be used to report any issues or problems while she was on duty because of course you're not there's not a
00:12:19
Speaker
a pay phone at the pond. Yeah, and you probably didn't have cell service, especially in 2000. Yeah, so they would pick up this two-way radio, and then Maggie would drop Molly off at the pond for her day's work. And every day, Molly would hop out of the car cheerfully, she would yell in, I love you, to her mom, and then just bound off to her lifeguard chair to set up for the day.
Molly Bish's Disappearance
00:12:40
Speaker
But the morning of June 26, 2000, one week of Molly being on the job was different than normal.
00:12:50
Speaker
On this day Maggie brought Molly to the pond but as she was pulling into the parking lot that led to the secluded pond because it's kind of like
00:13:00
Speaker
off of the road. Okay. Like among some trees. Maggie noticed a mustached man sitting in a white car smoking a cigarette. And again this is a small town so you would recognize someone who was different. And after she dropped Molly off that day and she saw the man, Maggie had the most peculiar feeling. Like something was off.
00:13:24
Speaker
about this man. I feel like you do get those from time to time like that little tingly feeling like on the back of your neck and somebody creeps you out or something like that. And then you know most of the time we convince ourselves like we're just being ridiculous or whatever but yeah like she had that feeling.
00:13:40
Speaker
and it didn't sit well with her. In fact, she was so put off by this man that she didn't leave Molly immediately because normally she would just drop her off and go home. Instead, Maggie slowly, I feel like this is totally what I would do, slowly walked back to her car to get her purse out and to wait. Like this mama bear was not going anywhere until this man left first.
00:14:05
Speaker
And as she walks by his car, she recalls giving him a kind of glare. Like one of those, I see you. I know you're up to no good. Don't even think about it kind of glares. Like that kind of knowing look. So she just stares. She just gives him the look. Yeah. I mean, that's a scary look. Yeah. Those of you out there, if your mom has ever given you that, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Like that is...
00:14:32
Speaker
the mom turn away yeah well like i said most people who get those kind of glares they like quickly avert their eyes because who wants to be looked at like that but this man didn't oh he just stared back at her yeah
00:14:47
Speaker
So Maggie remembers like this man's cockiness and he just glares right back like a power play. I'll be like I'm not looking away because apparently with dogs if you look away that makes them the alpha and I'll be like I'm the alpha in this situation. Don't even blink. Yeah. Like hold your eyes open. Well he wasn't scared by that stare that Maggie gave him but he did at least leave.
00:15:11
Speaker
And once the man was out of sight for a few minutes, Maggie finally felt comfortable enough leaving herself. And I'm sure that unease that she felt with that encounter with the man in the white car lessened a little bit at least when she picked Molly back up safely at the end of the shift. Right? So maybe she was like, okay, like that was just overreacted. What we always say. Right. The next morning,
00:15:37
Speaker
June 27th, Molly's eighth day of work began with some devastating news. According to an article on Molly's case published by Stories of the Unsolved, she received a phone call that morning that one of her close friends had been riding a bike to work and had been struck by an automobile that was currently injured. Oh, my God. Yeah. So, I mean, you never want to get that kind of news.
00:16:01
Speaker
Well, despite wanting to go visit her friend, Molly made the decision. I mean, she was on her way to work. So she made the decision to go ahead and go into work as normal first, right? Because she's wanting to prove that she's responsible. She just started her job. She wants to make a good impression. So she said, I'm going to go into work because today's going to be the first day that I'm supposed to give swimming lessons. Aww. I know. And then I'll go visit my friend. She said responsible. I'm very responsible.
00:16:30
Speaker
Well other than the news, Maggie and Molly's trip to the pond looked like any other day. They stopped at a convenience store at 9.50 and picked up a bottled water for Molly. They picked up the two-way radio at the police station and they soon pulled into the Cummins Pond parking lot right before Molly's 10 a.m. shift was supposed to begin.
00:16:50
Speaker
And I can only imagine likely that the image of the man in the white car was in the back of Maggie's mind as she pulled into the parking lot, right, because that odd encounter that day before. But she just as quickly was relieved when she pulled in and she didn't see his car there. There was only a dump truck dropping off a load of sand. So they actually watched this dump truck with sand for a little bit. They saw it pull out of the lot.
00:17:17
Speaker
Molly yelled her typical I love you to her mom and Maggie left. Only about 20 minutes later, according to a CBS News article from 2003 called Where's Molly? Bay State Mystery, Sandra Woodworth and her children arrived at the pond but the lifeguard Molly was not there.
00:17:42
Speaker
20 minutes. 20 minutes later. Mrs. Woodworth reported seeing the following, quote, the first aid kit was wide open, backpack was on the bench, her towel was draped over the back of the chair, sandals were in front, the Poland Springs water bottle was right there, but there was no Molly, end quote.
00:18:06
Speaker
So it looked like Molly had been getting her things arranged for the day, right? Like the placement of everything. Maybe she's putting on her sunscreen.
Initial Investigation and Challenges
00:18:15
Speaker
Yeah. So people were like, okay, maybe she just walked off to check things around the pond, right? Because remember her brother taught her at home, the area, check for snakes, all that good stuff. And I know that's what I would be thinking too. Yeah, initially. Yeah.
00:18:32
Speaker
And you know, just give it a bit, she'll likely be back. But when Parks Commissioner Ed Fett, Molly's boss, arrived at the beach about an hour later,
00:18:44
Speaker
Molly was still not back to her stand. Okay so now I would be like something's wrong. Right and he saw the first aid kit wide open and he closed it. Now we can only assume that he did that so like none of the visitors to the pond would take any of the items that were in the first aid kit and again he might not even be thinking something bad has happened right because this could be bad because now he's contaminated
00:19:13
Speaker
potential evidence. So he, I mean, he probably wasn't thinking this is a crime scene. I've got to preserve. Right. I mean, it was probably just natural to go up and close it. Yeah. Like if I saw a refrigerator door open, even if somebody hasn't been here, I wouldn't think, oh my gosh, don't touch the refrigerator door. If I could have fingerprints on it. Right. I would probably close it. Which mine clearly does, as you can see.
00:19:39
Speaker
But anyway so he closes it just so like other visitors won't get in there and he looks around for Molly after seeing her sandals are in front of the stand and when he couldn't find her he radioed the police from the two-way radio. Oh so she even left the radio there. So everything is right there. And
00:20:03
Speaker
obviously she wouldn't have gone very far because she doesn't have her shoes on. Right. Or the radio that she would have to radio if she got into any type of trouble or needed help. Exactly. So the local police arrived at the pond and they saw Molly's things but no reports of sightings of Molly herself. They started interviewing people. Eventually they call Maggie Bish, Molly's mom, to tell her the news. When they call her it was nearly 1 p.m.
00:20:31
Speaker
Remember, her mom dropped her off for her 10 a.m. shift, and 20 minutes later, she's not there. Wow. Well, Molly hadn't been physically seen by anybody since her mom saw her at 10 a.m., nearly three hours earlier. And those first, like, couple hours are critical hours.
00:20:51
Speaker
And sadly, Sleuthhounds and Maggie and I talk about this with a lot of episodes. Maggie can attest. Like in the Lorraine Rand case, when a teenager disappears, there's this tendency to first assume that the teen just, you know, wandered off of his or her own accord. They ran away? Yeah. Oh, they probably went to hang out with some friends or, you know, the movies. Right. And I'll admit,
00:21:17
Speaker
we teach teenagers. Some teenagers might shirk responsibility more than an adult, but
00:21:27
Speaker
Molly was not one of those people. Yeah, look how much she did. All those sports wanted a part-time job on top of all that. I just don't see her. I mean, she even had the choice to not go into work so she could visit her friend that had been hit by a car. Right. And she was like, well, I have a responsibility to go into work. I'll see my friend after. And that's the first reason that the police said where she was. They were like, oh, she probably left to go visit her friend.
00:21:51
Speaker
what's she gonna do off there when her mommy could have dropped her off? Well maybe maybe somebody picked her up again without your shoes you're gonna walk into a hospital? I don't think so. I don't think so. Yeah so this is not sounding like Molly at all. You know she's like Maggie said she's the one who's taking on more responsibilities not ignoring them. So when the local law enforcement even suggested that Molly left on her own not a single member of her family believed it.
00:22:18
Speaker
Instead, they knew immediately that something far worse must have happened in that 20 minutes after she arrived at work before the first swimmers arrived. In the same CBS News article mentioned a few moments ago, Molly's sister Heather reported the following, quote, This was a girl who gave up her Saturdays at 16 to go train to become a lifeguard. She took her work very seriously. There's not a doubt in my mind that she would have done anything
00:22:48
Speaker
to jeopardize that, end quote. Plus, here's my question, Maggie. Again, this is the big one. If she left work to be with friends, whether she went to the hospital to hang out or whatever it was, why would she have left her shoes there? Right, and this comes from, like, me personally. I never have shoes on, ever. Like, even at work, if I'm behind my desk, like, I'm crisscross applesauce and my shoes are on the floor. So, like,
00:23:19
Speaker
I get the no shoes thing, but I don't get the no shoes thing. Like if I'm going somewhere, I'm going to have shoes on. Like if I'm walking down the hallway, I'm going to have shoes on.
00:23:29
Speaker
go to the grocery store. Yeah. Or the hospital. Gonna have shoes on. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And the other problem with these assumptions about teens and young adults is that the crime scene is often not preserved well because it's not initially viewed as a crime scene,
Search Efforts for Molly Bish
00:23:46
Speaker
right? Because the longer you say, oh she's probably just off with friends, you're not viewing this.
00:23:51
Speaker
as the scene that needs to be preserved for evidence. And I feel like we should do the opposite with children. Absolutely. We should take it even more serious as a child. I know. So I don't know. I don't know why. You would think an adult more would want to escape responsibilities. Yeah. But I don't know. We tend to do it with teens. Well, when Molly didn't show up at home, nor at friends by that evening, police looked into another possibility.
00:24:21
Speaker
Could Molly have been looking around the pond that morning and gone in to test the water and drowned? Well, diver searched and found nothing. Okay, first off, she's training to be a lopping. Exactly my point. Exactly. This, it's just, if you're gonna be a lifeguard, I mean, chances are you swim pretty well. Yeah, I think you would be a decent swimmer. You've gotta have some training and
00:24:49
Speaker
Besides that, we're not even talking about like swimming in an ocean that has undercurrents and things like that. We're talking about a pond. It's not even a lake. Right. It's a pond. So that doesn't make any sense to me. And if you recall what I said at the beginning,
00:25:09
Speaker
What did Molly's mom say that she always had on when she entered the water because she didn't like the feel of the sand on her feet? Shoes! And her shoes are at the lifeguard stand. So again, her whole family is like, no. Yeah, none of this adds up. Yeah, that's not what happened. Well, as you can imagine,
00:25:32
Speaker
There was no proof of drowning. She never showed up with friends. And days passed with no signs of Molly. Volunteers started showing up to help with the search. The Massachusetts state police had become involved. News stories were published. Pictures were posted. Her
Eyewitness Reports and Suspect Sketch
00:25:49
Speaker
investigation, Maggie, would go on to become one of the biggest missing person searches in Massachusetts history. And the most expensive, from what I read.
00:25:59
Speaker
So at least once they figured out she was missing, they were serious. All of the resources were put in. But money and resources don't always equate with answers. And they didn't in Molly's case. In preliminary interviews, the police looked at those closest to Molly. They interviewed her boyfriend at the time. Remember she had gone to prom with him. He, just like the police, didn't seem concerned.
00:26:29
Speaker
and thought Molly had probably just visited friends. But this was a new relationship, so I just keep thinking, well maybe he just didn't know Molly the way her family did. Okay, I'm gonna go with that then. And I'll hold off on other judgments. I know. Well he did ride with Molly's sister, Heather, to look at the pond for Molly. Okay. So that's good.
00:26:50
Speaker
But it was later reported by Stories of the Unsolved that he was not overly cooperative in the investigation. Despite that seeming lack of cooperation, Molly's boyfriend was never named as a suspect in the case and he passed a polygraph test. So that's not impressive though. True.
00:27:14
Speaker
I guess in my head, maybe he wasn't cooperative. Maybe he was scared. Or maybe his parents didn't want him. Yeah. I don't know. Because it's kind of like my case last week. The suspects weren't, or the people they were interviewing weren't really cooperative. They literally pled the fifth every question. But that was because somebody was telling them to do that. Right. So maybe he was in a similar situation. That's true. Yeah, he could have been advised from a lawyer. Yeah, just don't say anything.
00:27:44
Speaker
They even looked into Molly's boss Ed Fett. Remember he's the one who showed up. He closed. He closed the first aid kit but he did call the police. However, Fett had a solid alibi for the time that the crime would have occurred. And some of the sources that I read stated that he had been helping a friend paint a fence at the time but I wasn't able to verify the specifics of that with additional sources. I read it on
00:28:08
Speaker
It was like web sleuths or Reddit or something like that. So it wasn't like I could verify those details. But either way, he was ruled out as a suspect. Okay. So when those potential suspects close to Molly didn't pan out, the net was spread a little bit wider. What if this were an outsider?
00:28:27
Speaker
Several locals reported seeing a mustached man in a white car near Cummins Pond in the days leading to Molly's disappearance. One witness saw a car and a man matching the same description in the Cummins Pond parking lot just moments before Maggie and Molly pulled in.
00:28:50
Speaker
on the 27th. So remember by the time they pull in there's only the dump truck at the same end. Yeah and they're good. Or they feel good about leaving. Right. One witness said the man was back that next day.
00:29:03
Speaker
And yet another witness reported seeing a man in a white car in the parking lot of a cemetery that was actually connected to the pond by a walking path. This is a creepy area. I know. Yeah there's like a hunting area, there's a cemetery, there's the pond and they're all like
00:29:21
Speaker
connected by paths in the woods. So multiple sightings of this man. So hearing those reports, that's when the terror likely struck Maggie Bish. What if she had looked directly into the eyes of the man who had done something to her daughter, right? Remember that glare? That chills.
00:29:45
Speaker
Yeah, like what if that eerie feeling had been spot on? So Maggie worked with sketch artists because she got a good look at him. Yeah, she stared into his soul. So she worked with sketch artists to create a rendering of the man who was seen only the day before Molly was gone because that's when she saw him was a day before Molly's disappearance. And I'm sure like
00:30:07
Speaker
She, I mean, maybe not, but just to me, if I were that Maggie, the whole time I would be thinking, did my protective stare make him choose her? Because I was gonna blame on myself. I feel like she's that tendency to play the blame game. Always, always. And so they drew this picture of the smoking man,
00:30:33
Speaker
who looked to be in his 50s salt and pepper hair with those dark glaring eyes that Maggie would never forget.
Discovery of Molly's Remains
00:30:42
Speaker
Now I will put images of the sketch up on our Facebook page for you to see Sleuth Hounds and Maggie I will show them to you now and I want you to describe what you see. This is the sketch by the police.
00:30:58
Speaker
okay so first impression is he looks Cuban he does he really does yeah like he looks like a mid 50s Cuban man he's a little overweight a very prominent mustache no other facial hair and like
00:31:15
Speaker
I feel like very stereotypical of like people from his generation like men that have like the completely sleek back hair. Yeah, all the gel in it. But yeah, he looks, and I don't know if it's just because he's holding a cigarette, but he looks very like.
00:31:30
Speaker
Yeah, just like a Cuban man. You can see the glare too, like in the drawing. And his eyes are like, like if you stare at like, if you're a teacher and you like stare at a student because they're talking while you're talking and you give them that look. Resquint a little bit. Yeah, that's what, and you're like piercing into their soul.
00:31:47
Speaker
That's what he's doing. And I noticed too like his chin, it's not really long. It's kind of like a short chin and he's got like a very prominent nose too. Like the kind of bags under his eyes you know like when you it goes kind of down into your cheek. Kind of has some big cheek like prominent cheekbones too.
00:32:08
Speaker
And again, we'll post this picture online for you guys to see. Well, despite the sketch, despite the description of the white car, despite the additional sightings by multiple witnesses, not a single person came forward with information about who the man in the car might be. So then you definitely think like,
00:32:28
Speaker
He's not from town. Right. It has to be an outsider if nobody has information. Because I think about like where we live or even like the towns we work in. Like if there were somebody who no one knew. Right.
00:32:43
Speaker
Like if it was- Then that's a clue. Yeah, that's a clue. Yeah, because it's, we live and work in such small towns, people are gonna know everybody and they'll say like, oh yeah, that's- Someone tells you that. Yeah, that's my best friend's third cousin. He lives over on blah, blah, blah. Right, yeah. If you live in a small town, you'll understand. Yeah, you understand. Well, in Molly's case, we didn't get any of that information. So we can only guess that it was an outsider. And the next lead in the case
00:33:12
Speaker
didn't happen until three agonizing years after Molly Bish disappeared. What? In May of 2003, a man was talking to a friend about hunting along Whiskey Hill, which is a wooded area only two and a half miles from Cummins Pond. Right, remember I said there's like the cemetery, there's a hunting area, there's the pond that are all kind of interconnected.
00:33:39
Speaker
Well this this man was hunting the previous fall and he was telling his friend how weird it was because he saw remnants of a blue bathing suit. And he would just pretend like that's normal in the middle of hunting? Well yeah and I guess to him like it
00:33:56
Speaker
It was weird enough to stand out, but he wasn't like, oh my gosh, there's a clue. We're different though, because we like true crime. So we would be like, oh, this is really weird. Somebody probably needs to know about this. Like a normal person would just probably pass that off. I mean, even though you obviously know, like people aren't wearing blue bathing suits hunting.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah, but I don't know. Normal people probably wouldn't be like, I'm gonna call the police and have this random bathing suit. So when the friend hears the man's story though, he recalls that the missing lifeguard Molly Bish
00:34:31
Speaker
was unlike the normal red or orange swimsuit of a lifeguard wearing a blue bathing suit on the day she disappeared. So the friend immediately called the police who launched a concentrated search of that wooded area to look for clues in Molly's case. Not only was the remnant of bathing suits still there when they did the search, that when sent for DNA testing did prove to be Molly's,
00:35:01
Speaker
But on June 9th, 2003, police also located 26 bones that were identified as Molly's as
Suspects and Rodney Stanger
00:35:11
Speaker
well. And that's sad. That's really sad. Maggie, the spot where the remains were found on Whiskey Hill, it was only about five miles away from her home. Wow. So this place of love and safety where her family had been continually praying for her safe return.
00:35:30
Speaker
So theories. I'm going to go through these and then Maggie, I want your input. First theory, a random attack from someone acting hurt. So remember, the first aid kit was open when Molly's boss arrived. So could someone have approached Molly to ask for aid? And then when she bent down, opened the box, the person attacked her
00:35:58
Speaker
and then took her down one of those back paths from the pond to the cemetery or to a wooded area.
00:36:05
Speaker
Either way, it would explain the first aid box and why Molly's shoes were left behind, because she didn't willingly go somewhere. And also, escaping in a car from an area that was kind of set apart from Cummins Pond by one of those paths would have been far easier to go undetected than exiting through the parking lot, which was quickly filling up with people coming to the pond.
00:36:31
Speaker
However, if that is the case, it would seem to me that it's likely that it would have been somebody who Molly knew to me or at least someone who threatened her with a weapon because the distance from her disappearance to where her remains were located would have been too far for someone to carry. Okay.
00:36:53
Speaker
So even if the person committing the crime or a young person are like higher than average strength it would have been too far. So that's theory one. That makes me think though theory number one makes me rule out almost I don't know I'll wait the cigarette man because I feel like you would need to know the back areas of that pond and cemetery hunting area and someone from out of town wouldn't know that. Right. Theory two.
00:37:21
Speaker
a man named Rodney Stanger. In 2009, Stanger was convicted in Florida of murdering his girlfriend, Crystal Morrison. Now you're probably thinking, what would a man in Florida have to do with a missing girl in Massachusetts nearly 10 years earlier? Well, Stanger was born right in Warren, Massachusetts.
00:37:48
Speaker
town where Molly disappeared. And in 2000, he wasn't living there. So he was kind of an outsider. He had moved away from Warren. In 2000, he was living in South Bridge, Massachusetts, which was still only a few miles south of Warren. But not enough for like people to recognize him. Exactly. Like I wouldn't know somebody in
00:38:09
Speaker
Like, Lexington. Right. Or Richmond, if I'm from Paris, Kentucky. Like, you're not... Yeah. They're closed, but it's not the same neighborhood. Right. So, additionally...
00:38:22
Speaker
Crystal Morrison's sister. So remember Crystal Morrison is a girlfriend who Rodney Singer murdered. Crystal's sister Bonnie Kiernan had just recently contacted Massachusetts State Police because in the days leading to her own sister's murder Kiernan said Crystal had been calling her more often and making odd comments about Stanger. These like whispered side comments about murder.
00:38:52
Speaker
And yes, and per an interview with ABC News by Kieran, also bringing up the name of Kieran's pet bird, Molly. Oh no, that's weird. So like, here is Crystal calling up her sister, making side comments about murder and murderers, and then saying, hey, how's your parrot Molly, well I assume it's a parrot, it's just a pet bird, but how's your bird Molly doing?
00:39:22
Speaker
That's weird. Too coincidental. Well, these comments had obviously led Kiernan to believe that Krystal, her sister, likely had some incriminating evidence to link Stanger to Molly's case. And could that have been why he murdered her? Because she had that incriminating evidence.
00:39:44
Speaker
Crystal Sister Bonnie tells the police that Stanger not only lived near the Cummins Pond area at the time, right, because remember he's in South Bridge which is just a few miles south, but also that he frequented the pond and was known to hunt on Whiskey Hill where the remains were found. More coincidences. And
00:40:06
Speaker
that Rodney Stanger had access to a white car at the time that was owned by his brother Randy who also conveniently left the area at the same time Rodney did and who it seems from all the research that I did police have also been unsuccessful in locating so we can't find Rodney and we can't find Randy even in 2020 not that I read
00:40:34
Speaker
And I do a lot of research. And Crystal's sister Bonnie also believes that Rodney looks uncannily like the police sketch made based on Maggie Bish's testimony in her memory.
00:40:53
Speaker
In fact, when Kiernan traveled to Florida to retrieve some of her sister's belongings, right after her sister was murdered, she found an old wallet of Stangers with a firearms identification card that he had just gotten renewed in Massachusetts
00:41:09
Speaker
only two months before Molly disappeared. And she found that wallet hidden in the kitchen cabinet. Yeah, because that's where you put your wallet. Exactly. Well, in addition to the wallet, Kiernan found two safe deposit box keys. And we still don't know what, if anything, was found inside that box. So I don't know if it's something where it was like some piece of evidence that's tied to the case and police don't want to say what it is because
00:41:33
Speaker
is tied to the case and it could be yeah you know a detail that only someone involved would know but despite now serving a 25-year sentence for the fatal stabbing of Crystal Morrison Stanger has continually denied
00:41:49
Speaker
any involvement in Molly's case and he's not been charged in the case.
Exploration of Other Suspects
00:41:54
Speaker
Okay, so I messed up. So we know where the brother is, or not the brother. We can't find the brother, but we know where the other guy is. He's in jail. And here is, and I'll post this, a picture of
00:42:07
Speaker
Stanger now this picture next to the sketch is Stanger later in life There's also a picture of his ID that remember was just renewed a couple of months before Molly went missing and I'm gonna show these to Maggie now and see what you think if you would argue that it's uncanny or not Okay, I mean
00:42:34
Speaker
Okay, guys, so the prominent nose and the like creepy mustache are there. The hair in the sketch looks like they styled it that way. His um like ID or whatever looks like kind of like a receding hairline, but it still is the exact same shape like along the top of the forehead.
00:42:57
Speaker
And, of course, that picture is a lot smaller, so I can't really see if he has bags under his eyes in the younger picture, but in the other picture, he definitely has very prominent bags under his eyes, as well as, like we talked about, that stuff right there at the cheekbone.
00:43:16
Speaker
But his chin is different though. It is. And his hair looks way lighter. Like I would not look at his hair and say that's salt and pepper. No. So I'm torn on this one. But let me give you some other options. Okay. Okay. Theory number three.
00:43:31
Speaker
Gerald Batastoni. In late 2011, Batastoni was named a suspect in Molly's case by a detective, Dan Matley. Batastoni had previously been convicted of violent acts against women, namely rape in the 1990s.
00:43:50
Speaker
But when he was named a suspect in the disappearance of another missing girl, Holly Pirriman, as well as a suspect in Molly Bish's case, he attempted suicide. And that to me is like, I mean it could just be pressure and you could be like, how am I gonna prove my innocence? Nobody's gonna believe me. But part of me is like, is it guilt? Yeah. Well,
00:44:17
Speaker
Badastoni later died in prison in late 2014. Evidence suggests that Badastoni had been in the Whiskey Hill area where Molly's body was found. And he also looks very similar to the police sketch. That's weird, because that's a very, I feel like would be super easy to pick that dude out in public. And now we have two people that look like him. Yeah, because normally we're like, oh, this could be anybody. But this way, I'm like, nope. It's distinctive.
00:44:46
Speaker
Well, I read that the Bisch family actually asked for DNA testing to be done related to Gerald Bottastoni potentially being involved, and that the testing was completed by a laboratory in Texas. I read that, but I found no word about the results of the testing. So they did get something that they could compare DNA with in Molly's case? Well, they had the bathing suit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
00:45:14
Speaker
I don't know what you get from anything else unless they did test like the other items that were there. But since this is still an unsolved case, the only thing I can deduce is that the results were not conclusive.
Forensic Links to Other Cases
00:45:29
Speaker
So here is the sketch compared to the sketch that was made in the other missing girls case.
00:45:38
Speaker
that we think is linked to the same guy. So you have, on what I'll post online, Gerald Batastoni in the middle and then you have the police sketch from Holly's case on the left and the police sketch from Molly's case on the right. So how would you compare the sketches and then what would you say compared to Batastoni?
00:45:58
Speaker
So the sketches are super similar. I don't think that the sketch in Holly's case he looks like he could be like you know Cuban or something like that. He just looks like a Caucasian male. Again he does have the really predominant mustache and the same hairline very square across the top of the head and
00:46:22
Speaker
the chin is a little more prominent in holly's i would think but this dude looks exactly i think like the sketch from holly's like the shape of the face the hairline he does have in the sketch salt and pepper hair
00:46:41
Speaker
I don't know if I looked just at Molly's sketch and the actual picture of this murderer guy, rapist, that I would say that's the same person. I agree. But to look at their sketches, they're similar, but not as closely related. Right. Okay, well let me give you a fourth theory. Fourth theory, David Pouliot in 2012
00:47:08
Speaker
Some forensic evidence led police to Puliat in Molly's case. You might have heard his name as well as a person of interest in Holly's case also. So now we have two men who are potentially linked to both Holly's case and Molly's case.
00:47:29
Speaker
And in Holly's case, Puliat also indisputably linked to forensic evidence in that case's
Theories and Social Media Impact
00:47:37
Speaker
DNA. Wow. So Puliat unfortunately died in 2003 so we can't interrogate him about his involvement in Molly's case either. Now before I get your feedback Maggie, let me tell you about a few more pieces of evidence.
00:47:57
Speaker
Do we know what this David dude looked like? Yes, I almost forgot, sleuthouse, to show her. Let me show you this picture, compared to the sketch.
00:48:06
Speaker
okay so okay super similar okay again who would have thought yeah okay so we now have like what is this three four pictures of men that fit this sketch this guy so the mustache super prominent you can tell this man is like hispanic or he's not caucasian um he
00:48:32
Speaker
His face is a little longer maybe than the sketch, and his hair is shorter, so I would like to see what it would look like a little longer. But I feel like the nose, the mustache, the bags under the eyes, it all kind of fits.
00:48:50
Speaker
So, yet again, Ms. Allen, you're gonna have to tell us what you think because... We don't know. Yeah. It's crazy how much all of these men look like the sketch. So, the other pieces of evidence that I wanted to tell you about before I get your opinion on it. In 2013, near the area where Molly's remains were found, a racetrack was being built. Okay. During the construction, cadaver dogs were brought in.
00:49:15
Speaker
radar detectors were even utilized at a nearby campsite in an attempt to search for the potentially buried white car. A buried car. Like the white car that the man was in. Yeah, somebody buried it. They think could have been buried. Okay. During the construction, a bag was
00:49:35
Speaker
found which contained a pair of plaid boxer shorts similar to the ones that Maggie Bish said her daughter often wore to cover her swimsuit. So it seems like the perpetrator had at least buried some of the evidence. That's pretty common right? For people to leave behind like tokens or something? Well additionally according to stories of the unsolved new tips came in
00:49:59
Speaker
that right after June 27, 2000, four different witnesses recalled a man at a nearby campsite with a scratched and bloodied face yelling about, quote, something bad happening in the woods, end quote. And a couple of the witnesses reported as well that six months later, that same man
00:50:24
Speaker
so they obviously know who he is even though they're not saying his name was overheard bragging about how he was a person of interest but had never been interviewed but Maggie that man even though people know who he is
00:50:39
Speaker
has never been named. So I tell Anthony all the time, like, he just doesn't need to commit a serious crime because if, or don't tell me, because if you tell me, I'm telling what you mean. I'll rat you out. Yeah, I'm sorry. I could not have that on my conscience. Like, when I die, I don't want to have to explain to God why I didn't tell anyone. I don't want to have that. So, what are your inclinations, Maggie? God, I don't even know. Like,
00:51:08
Speaker
The first theory about the person acting injured, I kind of leaned towards that because that's what I first thought when you said that the first aid kit was open. I was like, okay, maybe she was helping somebody and somebody attacked her. I thought maybe they carried her, but apparently that was a pretty far trek.
00:51:30
Speaker
I don't know. I kind of am maybe leaning towards the guy that was from there but wasn't living there. Stanger. Yeah. He was in Florida. Yeah. Because I feel like he would know the area well enough to navigate all those trails that he wasn't like living there so people wouldn't know him to be able to identify him. And what's weird is like
00:51:52
Speaker
So we have him and there's like the hints about like, how's your bird Molly do when, which is weird. I feel like Molly might be a common name for a bird. I don't know. I've never had a bird. Oh, that's Polly. That's Polly. Close enough. But then you've got the guy who attempts suicide when he's named a suspect. Yeah. That's the baddest Tony. And then you have the pulley yacht who's potentially linked to DNA. That's true. I forgot about that. And so,
00:52:19
Speaker
Who the heck knows? Or it could be, it could be. Maybe they all look so much alike, they were like all in on it. Well I was gonna say because weren't two of them involved more named as potential subjects in Holly's case? So maybe it was kind of the same thing there. Yeah. Maybe multiple people were involved with Molly's. Maybe.
00:52:39
Speaker
Well, what's sad is that there are so many possibilities and there are so many pieces of information that can point you in one direction and then immediately in another direction.
Family Advocacy and Hope
00:52:51
Speaker
As Heather, Molly's older sister, astutely stated in July 2019 to reporter Marianne Bragg of the Cape Cod Times, quote, once you've had that first crime happen, then you start realizing it's not just one bad guy on the street.
00:53:08
Speaker
It makes the world a little scarier," end quote. I agree. Just in this one case, how many people are potentially suspects or involved in this one case? Or I can imagine if your child went missing and then all of a sudden you start looking at how many criminals live near your home. Oh, I don't want to know because I would have nightmares.
00:53:31
Speaker
And especially when you take into account geographic profiling, the idea that when there are crime scenes like this one that are connected in a close vicinity, especially in areas off of the beaten path, that it's likely that the perpetrator of the crime is from a nearby area.
00:53:47
Speaker
Committing the crime in a sort of comfort zone, so to speak, as some of the potential suspects in this case could have been, again, it does make the world seem a lot scarier. So because we were talking about that, or Allison mentioned that in the intro, and I meant to bring it up right after that and I forgot, she was talking about how
00:54:07
Speaker
like don't post on social media when you go on vacation or whatever. This is completely random. But I saw a picture on Facebook and people or this person was talking about how you shouldn't put bumper stickers on your car because that reveals a lot about you like
00:54:24
Speaker
my kid's an honors student at whatever whatever well now they know like where your kid goes to school or if you put like proud wife of a oil digger or whatever the people are that work on like oil rigs they're like okay well your husband's gone a lot so you
00:54:41
Speaker
Yes, my cat is literally trying to crawl into the sound box right now, but they might know that like your husband's gone for several days at a time and that it like reveals a lot about you without you even thinking that it does and so I think we don't think about that kind of stuff and maybe we need to all be a little bit more vigilant about what we post and the things we reveal about ourselves to people we don't know because apparently there are a lot of
00:55:24
Speaker
Today, it could mean that an outsider could commit the crime because they would have this information. It could have been any of the suspects in this case. And that doesn't even eliminate the possibility of so many others outside of the theories that I was talking to you about today, Maggie. And that scary idea that Heather mentioned, that it could have been anyone, it could have. And maybe it was even that woman in the grocery store who you didn't even give a second glance.
00:55:37
Speaker
people who are not as nice as
00:55:55
Speaker
June 27th of this year marked the 20th anniversary of Molly Bish's disappearance. With the pandemic going on, the remembrance ceremony looked a bit different this year. Instead of many making a pilgrimage to the pond to pay their respects, they lit candles in their windows and turned on porch lights along the path from the Bish home to the pond. Locals also put colorfully painted kindness rocks with inspirational quotes at the edges of the Bish driveway for Maggie to put in her garden.
00:56:26
Speaker
Molly's sister Heather reported to NBC Boston's Mike Manzoni and Jake Levin, quote,
00:56:33
Speaker
20 years missing Molly. We feel the same as the day she went missing. It hurts. It hurts a lot. I miss my sister as much today as I missed her 20 days into this. I wish I could say that it gets better or easier. I think you just sort of get used to it. 20 is significant because of the year, but for me, I live without my sister every day. I live trying to find a murderer every day." End quote.
00:57:02
Speaker
But the search for the Bish family doesn't end with trying to find Molly's killer. After Molly's disappearance, her families also try to help families of other missing children. In 2004, her family created the Molly Bish Center for the Protection of Children and the Elderly. The foundation is still currently active.
00:57:21
Speaker
now petitioning for new legislature expanding how police are able to use DNA in their investigations. Right now in most states DNA matches must be an exact match as one in a DNA database to make a conviction. The Bisch family wants to extend the testing to familial DNA to identify suspects. In 2017
00:57:45
Speaker
24 more pieces of DNA evidence in Molly's case were submitted to the state police crime lab, according to an article for Boston 25 News. In that report, Worcester County DA Joe Early stated about the pieces of DNA evidence, quote, they're not bringing us further away from a suspect. I don't wanna talk about one person, a lot of people are being considered, end quote.
00:58:11
Speaker
I can't help but to get the feeling that in Molly's case, since her family is fighting for the legislation to be passed, that the testing of familial DNA could be helpful. However, the use of familial DNA is highly controversial because of several reasons. First, you should have the right to genetic privacy, to not have your DNA tested without consent.
00:58:35
Speaker
It could lead to dangerous and misguided beliefs that violence runs in families. Despite the controversy, several states, 12 of them, currently allow for these partial matches. But Massachusetts, where Molly's crime occurred, is currently not one of them. Allowing that testing could finally allow the Bisch family some peace.
00:58:56
Speaker
While the Bisch family showed their respects years ago to the only remains located from their sweet Molly, by kissing her bones and placing them into a small casket, they know that one day those bones will likely be exhumed for good reason, to test DNA again as forensic technology improves.
00:59:14
Speaker
Even now, though, 20 years later, the pain of not knowing is still fresh. In a CBS News article by correspondent Susan Spencer, Maggie Bish stated of her loss of Molly, quote, you're breathing, but you're not alive. You're walking and you can't make any sense of the world that you trusted one day before, end quote.
00:59:37
Speaker
Of law enforcement, she stated the following, quote, I could read in their eyes. They wanted to bring Molly home so bad and they couldn't. You can lose your keys and you can lose your glasses, but how in America do you lose your child? End quote.
00:59:55
Speaker
Now, after some time has passed, Maggie has also learned to lean more on Molly's final words of, I love you, which in a video Maggie released to the media in 2017, she says her words that she, quote, has held wrapped around her heart to sustain it from breaking, end quote.
Call to Action for Justice
01:00:17
Speaker
Along with the pain of her loss and the broken heart, she's still trying to mend sleuth hounds. Let's help show that hope also has no end. Share her story. Ask questions. Make her name known. The tip line is still open in Molly Bish's case. If you have any information about the case, please call 508 4537575.
01:00:46
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcast at gmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
01:01:16
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.
01:01:43
Speaker
you