Transcript
Speaker: What we hear and what we see is the ultimate form of recognition, you know, and I think like deep fakes really kind of mess with that. So where do I go? Voice cloning, yeah. Yes. Where do I go if let's say I see a video and it ah it looks and sounds like my child and I can't get hold of my child? Like what are the options I have? Do I stay calm? How do I stay calm? People say don't panic, like you said, but saying to somebody don't panic is the same as telling them don't be thirsty or don't be hungry, don't be in pain, right? Because that's, you know, that's what it is, right? Like you panic because you're afraid and fear is one of those things that, or don't be in love, like just don't be in love, right? Yeah. Fall out of love, you know? um So i think we're simplifying these things that are actually powerful drivers that scammers exploit and deepfakes just help with that massively.
Speaker: By the time a bank asks, are you sure you want to send this money? The customer will feel very sure. They think they're helping someone they love or that they spent weeks talking to someone they trust and they've watched what looks like their investment grow. The payment warning has to compete with everything they've already seen, heard and come to believe.
Speaker: That's why it's critical to intervene while social engineering is still happening. If we can help someone pause and check a message or a story while they're still deciding whether to trust it, we have a chance to change what happens next, before the money is even on the table.
Speaker: I'm Ayelet Baker-Lavine, and this is ScamRangers.
Speaker: Welcome ScamRangers. about the human side of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
Speaker: So welcome back. And let's start with you sharing a little bit about yourself. Yeah, sure. I would say first and foremost, I'm a researcher. I have done research into how scammers persuade and how um we are vulnerable to scams as humans as well, because that psychology makes us very, very susceptible to any kind of persuasion. And that's just how things are. And, you know, I studied scam as a part of my PhD and I ended up doing a lot more around scams, such as looking at different scams, figuring out techniques, figuring out ways how to label AI to spot the techniques and all those wonderful things. um Along the way, I've interviewed ah lots of victims.
Speaker: And I've also worked as a product researcher for the last six or so years, maybe more. After my PhD, I ended up working in tech in various companies. So I'm very in tuned on how the products are made and what what kind of users need. And um yeah, like I'm really excited that I've joined, you know, Rangers AI.
Speaker: We had ah like our fair share of like challenges and triumphs since I joined, which is really exciting. And I think we are making a really cool app that can protect people.
Speaker: Yeah, you're you're really in the perfect place between your technology expertise and really understanding. There's this book that I like about child psychology, how to speak so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will speak. So just from a scam perspective, how to create content so people like everyday people, all of us with all of our different vulnerabilities will listen. to the advice. And you're doing really interesting research, which we'll publish soon, about how people ah feel about different types of messaging to them. Like, I think one of your favorite ones, you also say, yes don't panic, right? That's a favorite quote unquote, which you don't like. um And so that's that research I'm super excited about. So yeah, i'm I'm very, very excited to have you on board and um i'm and what's coming for us at the company and also research that you're doing. So today I wanted to cover really the deep understanding of psychology of scams from a new perspective. Last time you were here, and definitely if you haven't listened to that episode, it was fascinating. We talked about psychology of scams from a human perspective, meaning not just victims, of course, they're human, but also criminals being human. And today that ecosystem has shifted. So I want to talk about scams. And and first, let's let's kind of set a baseline a little bit of understanding different things that are happening, maybe the anatomy of a scam, and then we'll shift gears and we'll talk about
Speaker: how AI is supercharging scams. And we'll talk about the technology aspect a little bit, but what is really fascinating is how AI is supercharging scams from a psychology perspective.
Speaker: Maybe you can start telling us a little bit about kind of what you've seen in terms of the anatomy of the scam and how how things kind of pre-AI have happened a little bit. Let's start with that.
Speaker: Yeah, like I think, um you know, I defined an anatomy of a scam. It's a very specific definition that I call out in my PhD work. And I know other organizations have a different takes and stuff like that. So we throw these terms around and it may mean different things. So I'll explain what I mean by that.
Speaker: You know, when I was studying scams, one of the interesting things that came about, I actually thought that scams are experiences where you engage with a scammer and scammer persuaded you to do something and that's it. But what I actually found is that scams happen way before scammer engages with you. And what I mean by that is that our circumstances, things that are happening in our lives, our stages of life, our social environmental factors that we may be engaging in at the moment, like being a part of a certain group or being at a certain, you know, like like a pyramid schemes have these parties that they organize where a scammer presents something to a group of people. Like the Tupperware parties and the... Don't want to say the Tupperware are a scam, but like... No, no, no. Of course, Tupperware is important. but yeah yeah yeah But yeah, those like get together and sell makeup, sell different types of things. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So you have like these moments that actually, know, can make you vulnerable even before a scammer engages with you. So I have like three stages. The first one is precursors, what are called precursors. And this is everything that, you know, maybe you're out of a job, so you want to find a job scam a little bit more interesting. You know, like these are the the drivers that can actually make a scam a little bit more interesting.
Speaker: So I know we always talk about, you know, someone recently lost a loved one or got divorced or, you know, big life changing event, lost a job. These are big life changing events. What other events, maybe even smaller events that also put these precursors into action?
Speaker: Yeah, like bereavement, for example. um You know, when people are bereaved, they want to contact the psychic and this is a perfect time for scammers to exploit them. And, you know, these are the scams that people don't talk about a lot, but psychic scams are quite big and can turn really, really aggressive. The psychic can exploit a victim over time. So like these are kind of things. There's another one as well. Like if you're going through, let's say, a cancer or a serious illness, you're more likely to purchase products that promise miracle cures, right? Like these are the basic needs. We find ourselves in the circumstances that make us kind of want to save ourselves from the predicament. And a job loss is one of those, right? Like if you are out of finances for whatever reason, maybe you have a job, but like you suffered devastating event, a fire or something that has drained your finances. you know, people kind of turn to that. Like, for example, scams are targeting gamblers for a reason, because these people probably have come to the end of the funds or have borrowed money to keep gambling. So they're a perfect example of someone who will try and kind of make money quick.
Speaker: So, you know, when we're talking about people being greedy, they're not greedy. They're trying to solve problems in their lives. So these are the circumstances the scammers exploit. And maybe just to share here that we've seen that in our data, that if a certain individual is targeted with prize scams, it's not like a one-off message. We see like really clusters of targeting with certain types of scams because that person is probably engaged and now is being targeted. Yes. I mean, that data is out there and ah people, you know, data brokers are using, a legitimate data brokers are using a data for targeting. And, um you know, I'm pretty sure scammers are also, ah if they're not buying these packages, they have their own. a while ago, I think, in the kind of like mid 2000s, Microsoft had a study that looked into why are scammers telling people they're from Nigeria and they're going, you know, along the route of ah scams that are widely recognized. And they concluded that it's probably because they want to find the most vulnerable victims that are not aware of the scams, whose details are put on a list and sold to other scammers because they would be lucrative victims who may not have heard of certain things. So, you know, I i truly believe that scammers are smart enough to target us for specific things. And we've seen that. You have a medical procedure, suddenly you're hit with Medicare scans. So how do they how do they discover these precursors, the criminals? I mean, you know, like like some of these in for like some of that information is public. Some of this information is, you know, like, for example, when you sell your house. When I sold my property, I had tons of legitimate agents contacting me. ah You know, do i need to buy something? Or when I listed, I had a legitimate agent contacting me promising they can sell better than the agent I went with. You know, these things are public and they can leverage public records. And it depends on the country what what records are ah public. And then you have things like, you know, perhaps they hack certain data points. The buy data inside fraud exists too. So look this various ways in which scammers are procuring this information and we see that when they call you on the phone, they'll have parts of your information already available to prove that they are your bank or they are your doctor.
Speaker: Okay, so let's take it further. So we talked about precursors. Yeah, so these are precursors, things that kind of predisposition you to reply to a scammer, if you will. Not necessarily that the scammer is targeting. Sometimes you're targeted, sometimes you're not, but you will find something more interesting if it relates to something in your life. And then there's a second stage called commitment, what I call the commitment. And the commitment stage is the stage in which a victim has decided to reply or engage for whatever reason, whether that's like a wrong text and you communicating. Maybe you don't even know it's a scammer sometimes, but you're engaging, right? Like you've committed to engage with this person. And then in that stage, it's really about personality.
Speaker: Like what personality do you bring to the mix? Are you more rational? Are you more impulsive? Are you more vigilant? Are you somebody who is more compliant, who and has difficulty saying no? Are you somebody who is like more argumentative? Even sometimes you'll argue with a person who is telling you something. Yeah, yeah, me too. I'm, you know, I use somebody who checks ah facts. I use somebody who reads things in detail. I somebody who, ah you know, generally talks things over with friends and family. So all of these things about us and each one of us is unique. And and remember, you're bringing these precursors in too. um And then the scammer, right? Like there's also in this commitment stage, it's about the scammer. How sophisticated is the scammer? What technology they're using? Are they using technology that actually is building the trust much better than some other technology?
Speaker: um You know, we've seen deep fakes. They can quickly bypass everything. So it's all about like how skilled the scammer is and actually executing the scam that they started. um So it's about kind of like these two people coming together, the scammer and the victim and kind of what is happening, you know, is the scammer persuasive enough? Are our personality factors also making things interesting in terms of how we go along with something? I'll be susceptible to flattery. I'll be susceptible to intimidation. My book has all of these things in detail. It's very complicated. And in this kind of stage, that becomes important because if the scammer is not persuasive, you will figure it out very quickly. If the scammer is not using good technology, especially now, right? If I haven't stolen any of your details and I'm just calling you, ma'am, ma'am, would you do this?
Speaker: You wouldn't, you know, but if a scammer calls you and they know your bank details, they know your credit card details, they know your name, immediately the relationship is different. Or like they know you're a social worker and you go to court and they threaten you with a court, like you missed a court date. I've heard that. Awesome. Something like that. Or jury duty. Yeah. So it's kind of about, but it's also about if you're engaging with a scammer, are they going to, people always assume that scammers just contact somebody and within a day or two ask for money. They don't, right? So scammers who do that, you immediately filter like you know filter them out and you know you know there are scammers and you don't want to engage. So the sophistication of the scammer really does matter in this stage, how far the stage will progress.
Speaker: So one of the things that we're seeing in our data is that, for example, if someone is, we we have um consumers who check, for example, like a crypto or a Telegram channel.
Speaker: And then we see other messages related, not necessarily like from the Telegram channel, but screenshots. We know the cryptocurrency investment scams they have. a Telegram channel or WhatsApp channel, and then they start showing fake trades. And so we see that type of thing.
Speaker: So what I'm asking myself when I look at the data is, do what is going on? Like from a psychological perspective, it looks like this spec. They're checking all these. Why are they still there? What is keeping them in the scam?
Speaker: Yeah. so So remember how I said precursors, right? Like it could be a social situation, right? Like, you know, the pyramid schemes, for example, traditionally relied on you bringing your friends along for the deal and stuff like that. um I think what's happening now in these channels, like a WhatsApp channel, groups for investment, you know, investing.
Speaker: Scammers are artificially, um you know, they are artificially generating or not generating, but they are artificially ah creating the group, right? So a lot of the times you'll see like you have these groups, they'll add you to the group. And in this group, you may be the only victim, you know, and everybody else is a scam account. But people are going to be saying, oh, yeah, like the investment is cool. Or they'll say something like we only have a space for a couple of people that are first come, first served, you know. So it creates that social pressure, social proof, right? You want to you know, you're competing with others, right? So like that's kind of something that is used in marketing. We only like limited time offers or um we only have like first three people will get this, um you know, and stuff like that. So I think like that's what's happening. I think like it's creating for the people that have doubt, they're trying to motivate them with some other triggers that kind of like we
Speaker: traditionally, we want to compete for resources, right? We want to also reflect on how other people are doing something. You know, we read reviews, we ask people for advice. So if others in a group are really confident about something that gives us confidence. So this, you know, there's like, depending on what the scammer is doing, there's two things happening, either giving you that reassurance from the group or making you compete with a group, you know, that makes you more irrational, more quicker. It creates urgency and so on and so forth. So that's kind of like, I think, is happening with investments is that they've taken pyramid schemes onto these channels in terms of how they persuade. So if someone is involved in a scam now, they went through this, they have the precursors, they have their personality and the scammer's successful. As a financial institution, we monitor fraud. What's going on with the payment? We might find different signals. And I think there is a big movement to employ psychology training in the frontline channels of financial institutions with the hope that we can break the spell or we can stop the sit spell or we can do something to talk the person out of the spell.
Speaker: I wanted to get your perspective on what can make that successful. Can it be successful? Is it possible to actually, is it, if I always think about like, it is it similar to going through the stages of grief almost when maybe, you know, it's not exactly the same, but you need to acknowledge and, you know, maybe I asked too many questions, but what, what are your thoughts around that? Yeah, I do think you can be successful, but you need to, like, I i always say this, right? Like, you get what you, you know, like what you pay for, right? Like that a saying. The same with this, right? ah If you pay for somebody to just like create ideas, right? You will get some ideas and you can test them and some will work, some won't work. But like, for example, i do think we need to be experimenting in these areas because the research hasn't yet come to that, you know, so we need to experiment and we need to be thinking in terms of not just asking people, hey, what could have stopped you in that moment? because people will reflect afterwards in the aftermath stage, which is the third stage. People reflect on a lot of things and they're very reflective and they want to find ah ah something to clutch onto to as to what would have snapped them out of it, right? Because they need to understand how it happened and how they can protect themselves.
Speaker: But what I found, for example, you know, with the research that we're just writing up that we've done over the summer, you know, we were asking people, here is the advice. And we took very vague, ah like pieces of advice. And we rewrote that advice to be more specific based on what the research already found to be more effective at preventing, like, ah you know, it's kind of like making more effective warnings.
Speaker: So we added these elements, but this made the message worthier. And people overall did prefer the more wordier answers that had these elements. But there were some people who said, no, no, no, keep it simple. And these people have already been defrauded, you know, and I said they have been scam victims. And there were some people saying, no, like, keep it simple, you know. So people will tell you to keep it simple and then you're going to find that it doesn't work.
Speaker: What do we need to figure out by experimenting, making psychological experiments like this is to understand, but what is more effective, right? Like, like not just what are people telling us? Because people will tell you different things and they're not going to necessarily understand what works because a lot of what we process is subconscious and subliminal and scammers are persuading subliminally. When a scammer sends you a picture of them dining in an expensive restaurant, they're not telling you, it's not innocent. They're telling you, I have the money to dine in such a restaurant through my investments. Right? like So they paint a picture that's more subliminal, where you make up your own mind about that person. They're not using language. So I think like we need to start experimenting in such ways to figure out what it is that work, you know, because sometimes when you ask people, they're not going to, you know, like I think there's like sayings, I think it was Ford that said, if we ask people what they wanted, they wouldn't say cars, right? And I think it's sometimes you need to figure out what is the need and ah what are people reacting to? And I think a lot of ah missed opportunities are around not putting the funds into that research and putting that funds into actually hiring the right people to do that research. Because when you ask questions, you will get data. The point is asking the questions in the right way and figuring out what it means.
Speaker: Yeah, that's that's extremely important. It's like we always talk about willingness to pay studies. Yes, people are saying that they're willing to pay, but are they actually going to do it at that moment? I just need to interject here because like I have a really funny thing. I used to run um you know, in my organizations, I always run 2D product teams. I always run these presentations on how to do concept testing.
Speaker: Because every product manager will create a concept test, like a concept, an idea. They'll go in front of the customers and say, hey, look, we are thinking of doing this. Would this be valuable? you know And they'll go, yeah, that's a great idea. That would be valuable. And i have a slide where i have that, an idea of that. And then on the next slide, you know like I ask, for example, hey, would it be valuable to have one ticket with which you could travel on a trains, on ah ah on ah on a buses, on ah you know ferries? And then a person goes, yeah, that'd be great. That'd be a really great idea. I could just like have a freedom to hop on any public like transport. And then on the next slide, that person is thinking, this is such a great idea. if i decide not to drive, I'll probably buy the ticket. So, you know, you ask somebody who doesn't even need your product or doesn't need your idea for opinion and you will get it and it'll be it'll validate your idea. But that person won't buy the ticket because they're driving everywhere.
Speaker: Right. So I think we need to also start thinking about that. Like how are we asking questions? Because scammers, I quite often say to people that I consult with, you need to almost start thinking like a scammer and scammers are not thinking literally.
Speaker: They are the way that they are thinking is attacking the peripheral thought processes. It's not really attacking our direct you know route of processing and how we would see things. So you can't really, you know, you need to experiment. So experimenting to find the the ways that are going to be most successful in either prevention or aftermath, but like not aftermath. during So my question is also during during the scam as a financial institution, from your experience, what cases are more maybe possible to talk someone out of and what cases are really hard to do at that moment? Yeah, I i think like the longer the scam lasts, the harder it is because you're more invested. Simply, I mean, we know that. And then how good a scammer is and what what are they using, right? Are they very skilled at manipulating? Because some scammers rush things. And when they rush things, like there's warning signs and especially if you're not, if they haven't invested the time to groom you and really kind of like prime you ah visually for certain things that then you create then opinions based on. So I think definitely that's a big, ah you know, big one. Like I think anything where let's say a scam doesn't have a very strong ability to evoke like our primal drivers. And by that, I mean fear, for example, a very strong fear. So you could get a phishing email ah with like your account has been compromised and you'll get a little shot of fear. But it's not as big as like if you got a phone call from your child saying they are in trouble. So it really depends how skilled the scammer is and how they're delivering that scam and how high on a certain excitement level or like, for example, if you if a scammer said, hey, you could win $20, you know, you're not going to be as excited as you would be at the prospect of, let's say, investing $100,000 and getting in two weeks. Because that 100,000 may be all you have for your retirement. And suddenly the picture of that retirement looks much better. So I think like there's, um you know, that's what makes it very effective. It's like how good a scammer is it like selling you the idea and whether they want to go for the volume, like, hey, you know, $20, anybody can, ah um you know, chance $20. But also some people would think it's not worth my time, you know, versus, hey, I'm going to spend time grooming you. and getting you to the point where you picture yourself in a better reality, in a better life.
Speaker: And I'm going to use that against you when the time comes to like take everything you've got. So yeah.
Speaker: Scams don't begin with money moves. They begin when trust is manipulated one message at a time. Rangers AI builds ScamRanger to help step in before the damage, detecting scam messages and guiding people while they still have the power to choose. And on the ScamRangers podcast, we bring you the voices on the front lines, experts, advocates, and leaders fighting back.
Speaker: Because stopping scams means protecting people before they're pulled in. Learn more at rangersai.com.
Speaker: So when a criminal convinces some or tells someone a story even about the bank ah in on this or the bank calling them or your bank doesn't want you to invest in k crypto because they're going to lose the money. ah so like showing that the bank has motivation to stop you from doing this and when the bank actually calls their prime to, you know, suspect the bank's motives. That's, I think, that may be one of the hardest cases because it just fits that pattern exactly if someone is going to call and talk you out and say it's a scam or something. I wonder, besides that deep emotional belief that they have that this is probably legitimate, or even if they had red flags, the the fear or the opportunity that they see, what is a moment where people can actually let go of that? Like, what does that mean for them to let go of
Speaker: of the story that they believe in and is intervention in those cases possible. I agree when someone just has like like a toll road scam and they put in the credit card details, we'll ah actually most likely not call them as a financial institution. We won't catch that or we won't call them. or But even if we do, that we're probably more successful in stopping that. But those longer scams, what is that point?
Speaker: what What could be effective? What have you seen effective in actually guiding someone out of that? Yeah, um this is where like I always say to people it's complicated. Because like if you think about, it's like saying, what is one product that we can make for everybody in the world that everybody would need and use and love the same, right? There isn't one. Like what I love, my husband doesn't love and vice versa. right um And what we invest the time and energy and money in is not the same. And the same for different like and now now you can take that even wider and think about different cultures and what up upbringings we had different age groups. You know, people are different.
Speaker: So, you know, there isn't a magic potion, you know, but I do think we can do a lot about like figuring out how are people different, what works for somebody, what doesn't work for somebody and like not thinking about it. Hey, this is a tool for breaking a spell and getting somebody to realize it's a scam, but more thinking about, hey, this is a toolkit.
Speaker: If screwdriver doesn't work, then we can go in with a drill. Or if this doesn't work, we have this, right? Like you don't fix everything with one tool. So like I think people are different and they react differently. And the way people are in terms of coming to terms with certain things, there are people who are more prone to denial in general in their life. So they're not going to want to believe that. And there are people who are more vigilant that actually they're going to thank you for warning them. and and And they're going to like think, you know, maybe they're not going to accept it there and then. And they'll say, thanks for bringing it up. I'm going to check this out. Right. I'm So it's really people are different. We come with our own circumstances, knowledge, determine knowledge about scams even, right? Like a knowledge, like for example, one interesting finding was that people who have a background knowledge on a specific topic like investment, they can protect you. But they can also make you more vulnerable because you could be more arrogant or more confident that you know what you're doing, you know. So it's kind of like, which type of person are you? Yeah, like one thing that I tend to do is solve red flags in my head, kind of explain why. Although, let's say you talked about investment. So let's say there's an investment opportunity and some red flags. But then I say, oh, it's probably because of this and this. And i yes. Yeah. Whereas someone who doesn't understand in investments would ask, why is it like this? What is going on here? So I can see that's really interesting because it makes the job of the teams that are calling customers so hard. And it's not just navigating a tough situation. It's navigating a tough situation differently for every single person. So you need to kind of understand who you're dealing with and what type of personality this person has and how long do you have to do that?
Speaker: I mean, let me illustrate this. Let's say that, you know, we meet for lunch, you and I, and I say to you, Ayelet, your husband is not really your husband. He's married to someone else.
Speaker: And your reality is you're living with this person and, you know, you're shopping together. You have two kids, right? Like how effective would I be in persuading you that this is happening, right? Right. And this is a real story for many women, you know, as well. Scam or no scam. Like, you know, this has happened to people and, you know, not just women, men too. Right. So it's kind of like people think that a person who's coming to the bank to transfer the money is aware that they're transferring money to a scammer.
Speaker: They're not. They're transferring their money to their loved one, right? like And yes, the relationship has been shorter, but I also have something to say about that, right? Scammers orchestrate the way they do the communication so that the relationship feels much longer. You know, doing it via text over many, many times a day means that it feels like it's prolonged, right? Like you feel like you have been in a relationship for two years versus, you know, a few months. Because like you couldn't meet in real life more than a couple of times a week if you're dating. Right. But like over text, the intimacy builds really quickly. It's a medium where intimacy builds really quickly. And so, you know, it's not even you can't even fight it with rationality because it's on another level. Like the the net communication time is much, much more than that. but That creates that feeling of a longer relationship. Yes. So yeah, it's tough. It's tough. It's not impossible. I think I do believe that like if we invest the time and effort doing research, diving into these problems, as much as we are diving into creating fraud solutions, I think we would get somewhere. We would create stuff. But I think like my my fear and my sadness is that for as long as I have been ah studying scam, personal fraud has never been taken very seriously in terms of whose problem is it? You know, and one of the things that I like to always kind of say, personal fraud is not just a victim's problem. You think it is. But if that victim and what we've seen in the last few years, how big butchering scams are taking your livelihood and you're taking loans and you're taking loans from your friends and family. So now imagine that victim and times like 6 billion or whatever, however many there are in the world, is now no longer your customer. They can't pay your loans. They can't like shop on your credit cards. They cannot buy goods and services. They cannot purchase insurance. They cannot purchase medical insurance. The governments have to take care of them because they don't have any funds. You know, they cannot send the kids to college. It affects so much, so many industries. And nobody's thinking in those terms, right? Like they're just thinking, hey, this is the money of this person. I'm not responsible for that. But think about the scale. Yeah, absolutely. i And I do see a shift in the mindset. that Two years ago, I still heard things like, well, if they were stupid enough to do it, it's their problem. And thank goodness I don't hear that anymore. I do hear, you know, we don't want to be liable for it, but I think there is a better understanding. But I agree. It's time to shift the protection from the payment and the account to protect the consumer.
Speaker: And that's that's exactly what we're focused on as well. And like, I just want to say, um you know, it's an it's an interesting point that you brought, like how from like you being, you were stupid to we don't want that liability. Like I think pivotal moment for me, and and I said this to Cecilia ah from Tinder Swindler, you know, the Tinder Swindler's victim as well when I first met her. Like when I watched Tinder Swindler, suddenly I realized this is a pivotal moment where victims are getting the recognition they need. Because traditionally, victims were just told, you're stupid, and they were keeping quiet. They were keeping that really quiet. And now we're giving them a voice, which is great. I love it. I think it's really important.
Speaker: But with that comes a risk to the institutions too, because those victims are no longer going to be silent. You know, they're going to be demanding. So, you know, there's going to be a lot more emphasis for the governments, the the financial institutions to do something about the problem. Yeah. And there there's definitely, I would say, more conversation. I see regulation evolving. We just had a law signed yeah ah or a bill signed into law to reduce the, you know, if someone lost their life savings and pull out a 401k, they don't have to pay taxes on it. So that's amazing.
Speaker: I want to shift before i want to make sure we have time to talk about how AI is supercharging scams. And so I think there are two aspects here. The first aspect is ai is supercharging scams because now instead of having tens of thousands of people or even hundreds of thousands of forced labor in Southeast Asia, Latin America and Africa and other all over the world, really sitting and scamming people all day long, which unfortunately is still happening, Now we can do a lot with AI. So we can create agents that talk to people. And we're seeing both from a protective ah standpoint, you know, AI grandmas scamming the scammers, but also is used. So you can, it's twenty four seven It's not, you don't need to feed the AI in terms of, you know, housing and food. it It can just keep going. So that's one factor of supercharge. But I'm just wondering from a connection perspective, if we train the models to talk to people and scam them and also retain the knowledge like in a scam, the criminal you just talked about, everyone's susceptible to something else. Everyone's different. How is AI supercharging scams from a psychology perspective? I mean, i I personally haven't engaged with any agents ah that are scamming, so I can't tell. But I do think that if you take just kind of like those three phases of a scam, which precursors commitment and... virtually yeah Futurist head hat on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like a precursor's commitment and then an aftermath. What happens after the scam with recoveries and everything. You could tailor the agents, right? Like I could have, like if I, you know, was a scammer and I knew what I was doing, i would have exploratory agent that would just get gather their initial information and then transfer you to the agent that's more specific. So what I mean by that? You know, people bond over and again, it comes down to personalization. and I think this is where AI is going to give scammers the upper advantage. ah It's already giving scammers an advantage because people ah find bots very easy to talk to and and stuff like that. so But think about, for example, if I'm talking to somebody from a scam compound and I'm telling that person, hey, I'm a hiker and I like hiking and I live in this area. That person would have to work very hard to get some basic things and they wouldn't know what to ask of AI.
Speaker: But if you load the information, preload information, and the agent could say, oh, interesting, I have just hiked this mountain, right? We're bonding immediately. We're going much deeper into conversation. where It's not surface level anymore. and Now we're bonding on like, oh wow, absolutely. Or I never thought about having children for these reasons. And the AI bot going, yeah, me neither because of these reasons. And so i I see, unfortunately, I see the future when this is going to be happening.
Speaker: And if we were thinking, you know, that scam companies were very effective, which they are, this is going to be way more effective. There's already been a study that found that the bot scammers are more convincing than ah human scammers. There's been a study on that. And we already seeing, I think I've read somewhere that, you know, there's already been found that agents are taking over the grooming process that long term because that's very laborious. And that's just from the scam compound ah like point of view. You have to create a compound. You have to hire people to control people because nobody in the right mind is motivated to scam people. you know, you need to provide an infrastructure for that to happen. And then it's going on back and forth. And you have to remember. Exactly. I remember the photos of people sitting with twenty to a one person, 20 devices, 16 hours a day. How do you remember the story then and the narrative? Yeah, they probably have like profiles and stuff. But yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, but yeah right I think AI can do a much better job at remembering, quote unquote, all the all the data about certain a certain person and asking them, how was your lunch on Wednesday that you went to that you told me about? Or, you know, how much did how would did the test go? Or whatever the thing was, it's it's much easier. Yeah, so i think I think that is going to be a big thing.
Speaker: And another thing, like you asked about how it's changing scams on a practical level right now, since like a few years ago, when pig butchering scams came on the scene, what I've started seeing is that there's an additional step in what a scammer does.
Speaker: um So, for example, for a romance scam, an additional step is that favor to transfer some money from the scammer's bank account. You know, that didn't exist before. They would talk with you, groom you, and then they would just go into a critical incident, which was like, hey, something happened to them and they need help. Whereas now, first it's like, hey, my bank account is blocked. Do you think you can... you can log on and have a look at this bank, like just transfer some money, I'll guide you, would they send a link. It's a prototype, it's not the real, like it's a fake app, fake like website, you know, website and stuff like that. But a victim doesn't know that and it behaves very real. So the victim goes into that bank account. And, you know, this comes back to what I was talking about, that a lot of our processing is subliminal. You know, what is Kamri is telling you with that? It's not necessarily, hey, just transfer some money because there's no money. There's no real money i mean there. What they're saying, ah you know, what the goal is, is for you to see, A, they have the money, that they it supports the narrative they've been telling you, the successful businessmen, successful. So when they ask you for money, you'll know, oh, well, actually he has the money. All I need to do is just helping get out of this predicament. So that's the one thing. A second thing is that it verifies the whole kind of narrative and story. So whatever red flags you had about this relationship, suddenly they go away. And it also builds trust because why would somebody trust me with a bank account if they're not serious about it?
Speaker: So all of this is happening subliminally. This isn't something a person is conscious unless somebody asks them, but they're thinking in a, you know, a brazen like a little processor. You don't see all the things, even when AI is giving you an answer, you don't see all the steps, but things are happening, you know?
Speaker: So that didn't exist before. And for investment scams, is those simulations in an app, like seeing your investments grow, right? This is a fake reality, um And I think like that's really a sinister thing because it gives the verification, like it verifies what's happening. It's very horrible.
Speaker: I wanted to also ask you about um an article that you recently participated in that talks about the use of deepfakes, a scam victim. tell ah Tell us a little bit about that and how that was used to supercharge scams as well. Yeah, like, i you know, I think, again, you know, with deep fakes, right, like what deep fakes are doing, you know, first of all, I have to call out the deep fakes existed even seven, eight years ago, but they were very difficult to make and they would be obvious. What we have now is the technology that makes them very easily and they're not easily recognized. You know, they're so good. So, you know, this obviously presents a problem. What the deepfakes do to us is that it immediately verifies the information, right?
Speaker: So if let's say I'm talking on a phone and somebody says they're my child or they're my parent or it's somebody, you know, that I know, can spot that not familiar. Or if the deepfake isn't very good, will figure out something's wrong. But I get that instant recognition. So therefore, there's no more. Why would I need to? Every time you call me on the phone and I see your number and I hear your voice, how much friction would there be in our lives if I just go, just a second, let me just check. What's the password? the password? Yeah, it was like, let me check by other means that this is really you, right? So it's kind of people, you know, like we know what our realities really consist on. And if you think about how we verify like as humans, so strip it away from like all of these things and think at a very basic level, how any animal in nature as well as like prehistoric humans or whatever, how do they verify by sight and by hearing, right? Like what's in front of them? And that is deeply rooted in us. So what we hear and what we see, it's the ultimate form of recognition. I think deep fakes really kind of mess with that. So where do I go? Voice cloning, yeah. Yes. Where do I go if, let's say, I see a video and it looks and sounds like my child and I can't get hold of my child? What are the options I have? Do I stay calm? How do I stay calm? Right. People say don't panic, like you said, but saying to somebody don't panic is the same as telling them don't be thirsty or don't be hungry. Don't be in pain.
Speaker: Right. Because that's, you know, that's what it is. Right. Like you panic because you're afraid and fear is one of those things that or don't be in love. Like just don't be in love.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Fall out of love, you know. um So I think like we simplifying these things that are actually powerful drivers that scammers exploit and deepfakes just help with that massively. Yeah. So what are we going to do about it, Martina? It's how do we combat psychology with psychology? Yeah, like I think, I mean, you know, like I'm super excited about my work on Scam Ranger app. And, you know, I do think like especially with some of the features that we have, such as trusted contacts, You know, think, you know, if I wanted to protect a loved one that I feel may be vulnerable because the elderly, maybe they're not computer savvy or anything like that. They're not as tech savvy. They don't know so everything about scams. I can have that notification and step in early before that grooming happens. Because it is hard once the grooming happens. At the same time, like the like we have the filtering of the messages, which is really amazing. And I love that personally, because so much of like effective scamming relies on that gut reaction that you have. And if you know, I'm going to a spam folder, I'm going to this folder to see all the scams that have been filtered, you are approaching that not with that gut reaction. You're approaching it more rational. And I think that's where the value is. I think I'm not saying that we should stop intervening at the point of transaction. No, ah you can still save a lot of people. I'm just saying it's more difficult. But I think like we need to be trying to think from all angles. Let's try and prevent...
Speaker: Let's try and intervene. Let's try and ah disrupt. Let's do everything because I think we're going to have to do everything. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, just talking about ai at the end of the day, we are talking about human psychology. And so the ability to to intervene really as early as possible is ah is going to be more beneficial.
Speaker: And if we can detect the signs of manipulation and really provide that that protection for for the consumer, then we're we're going to be more effective as an industry. And then, yes, course, course, at every step of the way we need to try. ah But the earlier we get in there, the more effective that will be. Yeah. Any final thoughts before we conclude? Yeah. Like I think we have reached, like I've been saying this, scams have been around for a long, long time and they have been very effective up to this point. But I think we'd agentic you know, AI and and agents being used for scamming, we are going to have to come up with new tools and ideas and invest money in developing them because I think it's just going to be, i think no nobody but scammers are going to have any money in the end. You know, that's where we're going. Yeah. Unfortunately, I agree with you on that because the reality is it's growing despite all of all of the efforts we're putting into this. So yeah, we definitely need to to step it up as an industry.
Speaker: Well, I wanted to thank you so much for your time today, Martina. I certainly learned a lot and I spend a lot of time with you, but still I managed to learn new things. And I will put all the links to your book, to the research that you've done about these topics and and the articles that you participated in it recently as well. And um thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. Cuckoo. Thank you.
