Transcript
Speaker: But if you're coming as green as a person reaching out from the bank and that person is red because they're in the middle of a scam, they're being pressured. um This is somebody they care deeply about and you come at them as a green and you're bringing all of your logic and all of your steps and all of your training right into that. But you're missing that you're working with somebody who's not in their logic brain. They're in a high emotion brain. You're missing the cues and it will almost invariably push that person back. And so what we talk about is like, once I recognize through words and actions that that person's read, then I need to change my approach.
Speaker: When someone is in the middle of a scam, logic alone may not reach them. They may be under a pressure, emotionally invested, or deeply manipulated. And in that moment, telling someone this is a scam, or simply presenting the facts, can actually push them further away. That's why empathy matters so much in scam prevention. We have to understand where someone is emotionally, meet them there, and help them slow down enough to begin making rational decisions again.
Speaker: And that approach can start after the money is gone. It needs to exist across the entire scam lifecycle, before the transaction, during the intervention, and after the scam.
Speaker: when victims may be dealing with shame, trauma, loss of trust, and even risk of being victimized again. Because preventing scams isn't just about detecting bad actors.
Speaker: It's about understanding human behavior and knowing how to reach people when they need us most.
Speaker: Welcome to Scam Rangers, a podcast about the human side of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
Speaker: I'm very, very excited about today's guest on Scam Rangers, or as we call them today, Scam Ranger, who's joining us in the fight against scams and really protecting victims.
Speaker: And very happy to host Dr. Trina Cleo on today's episode of Scam Rangers. Welcome, Trina. How are you? Thank you I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you. Great. So there is so much I want to cover with you today. um So you are the CEO and founder of Give An Hour. So tell us about Give An Hour and what you do.
Speaker: So Give An Hour is a national social impact organization. We are focused on mental health and we work with people who've been impacted by what we call human cause trauma. And so we offer clinical support, non-clinical support in education and training in an integrated way. So when, in this case, victims of crime and fraud ah come to us, we're really trying to assess, like, what is it that they need in the moment, but also long term. so we really try to have a tailored experience for them um on their journey for healing.
Speaker: Wow. so it's 20 years now. We have. We just celebrated our 20th year as a nonprofit. and And having that national footprint has been incredible because we're really powered by a fairly large group of pro bono mental health um therapists. And so they yeah have agreed to give an hour of ah no cost clinical care for up to a year for populations that we pay attention to. And so we're on a journey right now for clinicians and helping train clinicians in this particular type of trauma.
Speaker: But we also run peer support groups, which are led by people with lived experience who are there to help each other in that non-therapeutic way. But it's incredibly powerful, as you know. And then, of course, we have all the education and training components, which is really what we do. A lot of like, how do you take that lived experience in those clinical insights and use them to help support but financial institutions or agencies, um law enforcement, people who are really in the fight against fraud and scams, but they're very engaged with victims. And in this case, I'm being very specific about calling victims. I'm just reminding people about that this is a ah crime. We know that some victims prefer to be called survivors, but in today's context, I'll use victim. For sure.
Speaker: And tell tell me a little bit about that that activity. you You shared a little bit kind of peer support groups and one-on-one sessions. So if I am a victim of a scam, I just got went through a scam and out I'm impacted not just financially, but also emotionally, like I think everyone is when they face ah this type of crime. How do i reach out to you and what is the experience that I would go through?
Speaker: Yeah, so um as as you know, because you're right in the thick of all of it, there's just a few of um or national organizations who actually provide more of the healing side of the the journey. So there's a recovery side, which there's a prevention side, which there's a lot of focus on recovery side, which is really about helping with your financial health.
Speaker: And then there's a few of us um nationally who ah really look at addressing also that healing side, which is that psychological and emotional component And so when people reach out to us, they they go to the website www.givenhour.org, and there's a contact us. And we ask for just like a real brief amount of information. Again, our our job is to be very low barrier. um We know that people are under a tremendous amount of stress. um They've had, ah in many cases, a very traumatic experience. There's a lot of information coming at them at once. And so we're really trying to make it as important.
Speaker: low barrier and low friction as possible. So that electronic document, which again, won't ask you any really personal information, but that will go to one of our um intake persons. And so that person will look at the information and then do a warm reach out depending on how you ask to be reached out to. it could be phone call, it could be a text, um Could be email. And that's just an opportunity for us to get to know like what has really occurred. um Where are they at really in their journey? Did they just find out? Has it been a while? And then just to really listen. You know, a lot of times that's when people it's one of the few times that they have like a listening ear. So a lot of times they want to go back and explain like, how did we even get this? today's yeah phone call or engagement.
Speaker: And so that's really what that person's job is, is take that information and a brief assessment to see if we need to do a higher level of intervention of care. So we do have people who come who are in a pretty heightened state who are feeling overwhelmed and and at times in crisis. And so we do an assessment. And then ah if we need to do warm handoffs, we do that. But otherwise, then we can really start talking about what kind of um supports and services we may be able to help them with.
Speaker: So one kind is kind of one-on-one therapy, probably, especially for those cases that are heightened and in crisis. And then they can roll into the support groups that meet on what frequency more less?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, one of the great things is that what we have found, so I'm just talking from our experience, but what we have found is that most um individuals, we can get you into a peer support group fairly quickly. We run them weekly. We have several groups going. And we do have a group for loved ones as well that's separate from people who have have directly experienced this crime. But what is wonderful ah is you get into a group of people who really can address a lot of the things that we hear from victims that they're experiencing. Shame, isolation, feeling like they're the only one. And they come into a group of people who are at various stages of their own experience and also a facilitator who has had lived experience, who's also had some additional training. And immediately there's like a reduction in stress and a reduction in those feelings of anxiety and like a real feeling of hopefulness. And that's really what we're trying to establish. And so oftentimes for many people, that is enough for them to to feel more stable and And to start putting in order the things that they need to do both on the recovery side, on the financial side, but also ah really the kickoff towards their healing. And then you may be in that kind of part of the the process. And again, these are voluntary, so you don't have to go to peer support. But as I said, I still think it's one of the more healing environments to be in and to have them be weekly. facilitated by somebody who gets it and people who are there who are ready to really surround you with support and and great advice. And we bring resources into into those spaces that are trusted and vetted. But individuals may also be looking for or only looking for clinical care.
Speaker: So it might take us a little bit longer. um it it hasn't been very long that it's really been even recognized as a type of trauma. And so I think that, you know, part of our job is to help educate clinicians. And so we actually launched the first national training for mental health professionals specific to financial fall um fraud fallout. So we have a six-part training series that we made. um We put CE credits to it for those ah therapists who are looking for no-cost credits and and want to become upskilled in this. We have um these trainings on demand. But we created them open source for anyone because we understand that other people who have taken this, even though it's it's geared towards the clinical side, said that it really helps them identify the experience they've had or the language that they that's being used there. It's really resonated with them. So it's ah it's a great ah way for people to get upskilled quickly, regardless if you're therapist or not. But we do hope that our clinicians will go through that and become more competent. So when we pair somebody with a therapist, it feels like it's a good match. I think one follow-up question to that. That's great. You know, getting more fine-tuned on what victims of this type of crime, scams, and fraud really need. And so one of the things that I wanted to ask you is, what have you learned over time with regards to the the uniqueness of the trauma? And I will say i heard you at Global Anti-Scam Summit talks about trauma-informed communication, trauma-informed support. So what have you learned about this crime that is unique and the way we need to reach out to victims is unique compared to other types of trauma? It's such a great question. ah Well, I think from a systems perspective, first, I would say that there's so much room for us as systems agents to be trauma informed. And I know the word gets used a lot ah as you know and people are like, well, what does that really mean? And so you know it's an approach that recognizes how experiences of harm, and in this case, emotional and psychological harm, um affect a person's sense of safety and trust and autonomy and emotional regulation and even like the trust they have for themselves. And so when you use a trauma-informed approach, it prioritizes dignity, choice, connection, and responds in ways that reduce shame in isolation. And so what's great about it is it benefits anybody. If you have a system that's trauma-informed, then you don't have to know, well, does this person have a particular yeah a trauma response to something? Or did this person have this type of experience? When you lay it out like that, it just benefits everybody. And so we're really huge proponents of trauma-informed practices. It's something that you can incorporate. And it's really, a but and I always think this about everything, it's a practice, right? Some days you are very trauma-informed and some days you might have misstepped a bit. and
Speaker: But it's the ongoing practice. And you can operationalize it, which is fantastic. So when you're thinking of systems, but what we have heard from victims is, you know, i think the clearest one is that this is not just a financial crime. This is a crime.
Speaker: psychological and emotional harm. And so those things, the system is set up a lot more to work on that side of of it, which is that it's a financial crime or that it's a transaction. And I think that what we're trying to do is upstream ah these responses to say, if we address both at the same time, This person who's going through this victim will have better outcomes on the psychological and emotional side of it if we can upstream more of these trauma-informed practices. So when they go to their bank or they talk to the credit union or they're working with a legal or they're talking to law enforcement, every one of these is another opportunity for us to be as a system trauma-informed.
Speaker: And converse to that, would where i would say every one of those is this is an opportunity where that person has felt shamed or dismissed or not recognized or validated. And so that's part of what we hear. So I'll take say that from the system's point of view. I think from what we've experienced with clinicians,
Speaker: is really interesting is of the clinicians that we have done the training with, and then we actually do a community of practice after each training. So the idea is that we take the training in and then we bring people together in that are all of, you know, clinicians to really talk about their experiences and how they're kind of metabolizing the information, how it would be helpful, what more do they need? And what we have found is that many said, even after six trainings, that they didn't still feel the full confidence. Even though you know clinicians are are have a lot of experience in trauma and trauma responses, there's something very particular here um that knowing, understanding the nuance of people's experience. And I can just give one example. If um romance scams, I think, are very, if you aren't akin, if you're not close to this, if you don't understand the operationalized
Speaker: emotional engineering that goes into these scams, it's very difficult, I think, for people to understand how you can mourn the loss of a relationship that wasn't truthful, that was deceptive. And so not only you're dealing with the financial, but you're dealing with a relationship and the void that that relationship, which, yeah as we know, is so full of love bombing and constant communication and lots of promises and mirroring of activities and mirroring of emotions to this person. And then there's an absence when they discover this is ah ah a fraud or a scam. And now there's at ah just a hollow space.
Speaker: And that's a real mourning. And I think that what we've had to really work with people across the spectrum who support this is that that's a real loss for that person. That is a relationship loss. And it's a loss of trust of themselves. It's a loss of trust in other people. And so it's These are just some of the nuances that I think are so important as you pass it along as people are moving through experience, both with institutions and organizations, but also their own internal. It's just to really put that human spin that this is a human experience and you're seeing reactions to that experience. Yeah, well, you speak, I think, you know, we've all gone through breakup, right? And it's so painful.
Speaker: And it's so sad. And even if you're the one initiating the breakup, but that's not the case in this situation, it's always harder to be the one who wanted to continue the relationship and had to, you know, but just putting the realization that it was not real and putting on the realization that or the shame involved in how did I not notice and All those things and the and the backtracking and what are the signs that I should have seen. So there's so much more than a regular breakup that goes into that when we talk about a relationship scam. That it's almost, you know, we can relate to all all of us as as humans to that, but we can't really deeply understand that without going through that. So having that trauma-informed approach is so, so critical. And for these types of crimes, for sure.
Speaker: So just thinking about the fact that you talked about having support groups, not just for victims, but also for loved ones. And to really understand the impact of the scams, not just on the victims themselves, but on their loved ones, their families, their households. A survey conducted by Gallup and driven by Stop Scams Alliance ah talks about that one of the questions that they ask is, how would you describe the impact the scam had on your mental health or well-being? So it it ranges from no impact or moderate to very negative impact. And I want to say that negative to very negative, obviously for the victims themselves, it's been, we're talking about 78%, 77%, sorry, talk about a very strong impact. But what is interesting, those who are household members of scam victims that are not affected directly, also talk about very, very high rates. They talk about 65% feel themselves a very strong impact on their mental health. So that is so, so important to also consider as part of the protection. So it's great that you have those groups. And what are you seeing there? Yeah, um a couple things I think are, again, just interesting. i see family members or loved ones come in It's more episodic. So even though they're available weekly, they may come for a couple of weeks and then maybe things of have either calmed down or it's just not as visible and then maybe come back. So it usually it's closely associated with like an additional scam or, you know, the, the and oftentimes we're seeing it's like older parents. So these are adult children of older parents who are being scanned where they're looking for what can I do? And I think we see this everywhere.
Speaker: Banks are asking the same thing. How can we get them to stop in the middle of it? And families ask that as well. And so many of the things that we put in place for families, honestly, is so much about your own taking care of your own self. There are um structural things that you can possibly be put in place to try to put a barrier between the, let's say in this case, the adult who's um a victim and maybe is is not aware or is not wanting to to become aware of that. We've had that um where children You know, the victim is suspicious in continuing to um engage. And regardless of who is telling them that this is more than likely a scam, it's it's not changing anything. it's not changing in the behavior. So much of our work is helping support the family. What can you do? You know, we and we often, you know, see, can they get a psychological assessment? So we want we want to rule out some things too. um Oftentimes with older, we want to make sure it's not a cognitive challenge. We want to make sure that they're, you know, taking any kind of prescribed medication regularly. I mean, you're just looking for some of those things, which can help open up, like, where are we really? So with families, often what we're doing is really helping them with our own mental health and being able to put up some boundaries. And we always talk like boundaries are not walls, they're fences.
Speaker: And they are helping people put some things in place because they want so desperately to help that sometimes the help is enabling the behavior to continue to. And it puts such a strain on families. And so oftentimes it is episodic when they come, they may come and have something that really triggered a response. Maybe the person had um just sent some money or in many cases, they're about to lose their own housing because of the the financial Behavior of the victim. Exactly. And so that's probably the biggest amount of work that we do is to help them stay whole, to help them stay healthy, to help them put some of those boundaries in place while they're keeping you know the the fence so somebody can still reach through and you can still help. um and be supportive, but also that you're not being drawn too far into it, that you're also putting your home and your family at risk. And so it's very delicate. um It's very draining on families. There's a lot of emotion that goes that goes with this. And we have seen families' decisions to be made to leave a spouse after 50 years because of somebody that they're engaging with online who ended up, of course, being a scam, who are close to losing their housing, who have put up a HELOC loan, that's coming due and they can't afford it. There's so many of those experiences. And so we want to look at the holistic is not only how can we help the survivor because they actually might be the last one to come to group the victim, but we also how do we help those families maintain really that long?
Speaker: It's a long game. Yeah. And I see on Reddit and, you know, there are steps on scams and I see there a lot. I think my, you know, mother-in-law, so many, you know, relationship are is talking to a criminal if it's an investment scam or, you know, a romance. And there are so many situations like that. And and have given empowering them to deal with the situation and to talk a person out of the scam is so critical. So that's amazing. There's not a silver bullet. And I think that's often what time what we're looking for is like, what can we say? And and what we really focus on, I'm sure this is what move into, it is is more of the strategies and the consistency of those strategies are what is within our power. But having something that just breaks the spell, I have yet to see that. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, and you can explain this definitely better than me. But if I believe that I start from the simplest case, if I got into my car and drove to CVS to get gift cards for my boss, who's asked me to do it, that little sign at CVS is not going to stop me. You know, sign saying beware of scams. What? I'm not being scammed right now. i'm My boss asked me to get a gift cards or all the way to you know, talking to ah a bank customer and saying, this is a, you know, I think you're in a relationship scam. What? But acknowledging it, even if people have red flags in their head, they they're already too far in. So let's talk a little bit about that. Another quote, to quote the Gallup survey again, the numbers I think are 55% of people report even higher than that, actually, if we include the payment apps. About 70-something percent of victims who report the scam will report it to a financial institution. So de facto, the financial institutions are on the front lines of reporting. Yes, there are reports to the FTC and there are reports to the FBI, but maybe many of them do come actually from the bank asking to cu you know the but the customer to report to those as well. But the banks are really the front lines here. So you talked earlier about the fact that a lot of your training goes to clinicians, but it's also open source. And you've been also working with other types of institutions, such as financial institutions. can So can you tell me a little bit about that? What is your goal in opening up you know the the interface a little bit more to those types of paintings. Yeah, it's it's so fascinating because as you said, I mean, what my first inclination is I'm going to reach out to my bank to find out what happened. And so Or mostly how I like can get the money back.
Speaker: Absolutely. How can I get the money back? And so that's where that trauma-informed practice really begins. And then it goes all through the arc of this person's journey. I mean, in an in a perfect world. And so our work has really been to understand the populations of individuals at banking institutions who work on the front lines. And so often that's going to be your tellers, it's going to be people who are in your fraud department.
Speaker: But we spend a lot of time just really listening, like listening to what are their day-to-day lives? What are the interactions like? Give us some examples of interactions they've had. And so part of that is so we can come back with some, and I'll i'll use air quotes that you can't see, but I'll say solutions, but it's really those trauma-informed practices. So what can you do um Because you're seeing the transaction and tech is seeing the behavior and then we're seeing the trauma. And what we're trying to do is take what we're seeing and and move it upstream. So how can we help you in those moments? And part of it, too, is how can we help protect your staff? Because this is really hard work and it it can be very draining work for frontline staff, for law enforcement, for social work workers, like anybody who's across the system. So part of this is, and I'll just give like one example, is like, how do you create a little bit of friction while you're maintaining customer service? And so I always think you haven't had time generally to build trust.
Speaker: So what you're going to have to do is build moments. And when you're approaching someone, we we don't use the words fraud and scam. When you're approaching somebody who you think is being frauded or scammed, um that's helpful too, because that immediately can put someone on the defensive. But what you're trying to do is but build some friction points. And so if you can get people to slow down,
Speaker: You can say, you know, you're you're bringing it into we. So, you know, we should take ah a pause for a moment and really look at what this transaction looks like. And so do you have time for that? So I'm giving you choices. I'm slowing the pace down. I'm looking for pauses because I want to but i want to create just a little bit of friction.
Speaker: I know that recently i um had ah a financial transaction. I had two people from my bank call and I was so grateful to have them call. But because I'm in this work, I was like, oh, absolutely. And I talked to him about the work, but I thought this is so nice because you're giving me a moment to pause.
Speaker: And you're asking me my intent of making this transaction. You're asking if I knew people on the other end of the transaction. But I also know that not everyone is wanting to be inquired like that as well. So I think of things like when you can talk about us, like, you know, we should really take a look at this transaction before we go forward because we want to make sure that you're safe. And then that way, it's not accusatory. It doesn't feel like you're putting that person that they don't know what they're doing, especially with older older adults. ah My mother does not like for me to talk to her that way. And I would imagine that people who don't have a trusting relationship wouldn't like that either. So you're really trying to to soft walk it, but also see if you can create some slowdowns and and um and and slow down the momentum.
Speaker: But what we do is is really work with those frontline folks to help them even understand, like, if you have somebody who's in just a transaction dispute, these are low emotions. There's a charge on my card. I didn't make it. I want to talk to you about it. And we're both probably, we call it like ah green, yellow, red, but you're probably both green. So you could have ah an easy conversation.
Speaker: But if you're coming as green as a person reaching out from the bank and that person is red, because they're in the middle of a scam. They're being pressured. um This is somebody they care deeply about. And you come at them as agreeing. And you're bringing all of your logic and all of your steps and all of your training right into that. But you're missing that you're working with somebody who's not in their logic brain. They're in a high emotion brain. You're missing the cues. And it will almost invariably push that person back.
Speaker: And so what we talk about is like once I recognize through words and actions that that person's read, then I need to change my approach. So I may have to lower my voice. I might come in a little softer. I may come in with a couple of soft inquiries, but I'm not going to talk to them the same way I would somebody who has just had a a one-time fraud transaction. And so I think that understanding that you've got to adjust your ways and there are cues that that individual is giving you about where they are in their emotional state can help tremendously. Because as as you and I have talked offline, trust is trust is is the connective tissue to all of this. And it's so hard to gain and it's so easy to lose. And so you're using these as moments to build trust. and moments to create a little bit of doubt in their emotional brain and moving back to their logical brain. Yeah, especially when there is someone else guiding them and often telling them, you know, your bank is going to call you now or something like that.
Speaker: Before we get back to the conversation, I wanted to share something we believe deeply at Rangers AI. The future of fraud prevention isn't just about detecting suspicious transactions. It's about giving people the confidence to make safer decisions before money moves.
Speaker: Every day, customers receive texts, emails, phone calls, and messages that look legitimate. By the time the trans transaction reaches the bank, the customer may already have been manipulated.
Speaker: And that's why we built ScamRanger. ScamRanger helps people evaluate digital communications in real time, understand the warning signs of scams, and know what to do next. It empowers customers to make important decisions while giving financial institutions another layer of insight and protection. Because the strongest defense against scams isn't just better technology. It's building scam resilience, one decision at a time.
Speaker: Now, let's get back into the conversation.
Speaker: So I wanted to actually take a pause and go back to, you mentioned earlier, what happens before and what happens during, what happens after, and the different interaction points that we we meet the the victim. We meaning the industry. Because i mentioned that they report to the bank, but the bank actually can see what happens before the reporting, you know, the transaction itself. And at Rangers AI, for example, we can see what happened before the transaction. You know, what are the messages that triggered the scam to begin with?
Speaker: And what we do in that moment is we don't just detect a scam. We actually provide guidance. But ensuring that the guidance is not trauma-informed at that point, but informed in psychology-informed, let's call this, to meet them where they are and to really be effective is so, so critical. And the way to do it is really gaining that full understanding of how this works and and how to talk to someone based on what where they are, right? And then so with that, we can equip that knowledge into financial institutions so they understand what happened to before the scam and also you so you can understand you know what what triggered this. And then the financial institution has all that knowledge at that point of what is happening in the derient transaction. What are the anomalies? Is this a new account? Are they on the phone? All those signals that could indicate that this might be a scam.
Speaker: yeah And then they can come into what what you're talking about in that moment if they reach out to someone who's either waiting for a malicious call from their bank, quote unquote, because the criminal told them that the bank will call or or thinks that the bank is in on it. And you talked about trust, right? Building trust with someone is a year long process because at that point, you're The criminal has spent between half an hour and weeks or months or years with that victim. So how do you pinch through that hole? It's it's almost impossible, like you said, to break the spell. And then supporting after the fact with empathy. and And so kind of how do you see your your role in this life cycle?
Speaker: Yeah, and that's exactly what I see, though, is is the life cycle. And so I always think if I had a magic wand, it would really be um industry in this case, as as we're talking financial institutions, AI tech platforms like yours, and places like us, where together we're creating a prevention and healing loop. And so you One that reduces repeat scams so that revictimization protects customers and helps them. And this isn't the only goal, but to be confident again in e-commerce. And I'll use e-commerce very generally because it's very isolating to no longer be engaging online in in a respect. And then strengthen trust.
Speaker: And so what we see is because each of these each of these entities is collecting a lot of data and has a lot of insider knowledge, the more that we share that knowledge de-identified, of course, but the more that we share the insights, so with baking institutions can see those patterns, they can see some of the early alarms, the tech AI really helps us with the behavior fear and being able to detect things upstream, that there's always a piece that a human is going to have to be part of that intervention. And that's where I think what what you mentioned before, which is it's very hard to penetrate someone who has been manipulated to that degree. And so um they will override in many instances, the red flags, the comments from family, the comments from friends, the comments from the bank. And so there's always that piece. And that's really what we're training to. But then also,
Speaker: What we learn from victims has a a um data life cycle that can go back and feed the system. And so then it helps us understand what's coming down the pipe. What are the what are the mechanisms that were used?
Speaker: um What could have been done, if anything? and we So I see victims, and and this is so empowering for victims, when they are really centered at the... move to the center of these experiences, we build better protection systems, prevention systems, response systems, recovery systems, and healing systems. And so so that's what I see that can be so exciting about this is is to have more frameworks that we're all operating from. It doesn't mean it has to be, it's not a prescriptive way of doing things, but if we have frameworks that then it starts really upstream with that first bank in engagement and can work its way all the way through to that healing journey and then back around again in terms of the data and that information sharing. And you mentioned victimization um or re-victimization, sorry. That is, you know, a really, really important point because there are are many cases of rebrictema ja re-victimization, unfortunately. And so that closing that loop is critical to prevent those cases because we already know that there was this incident up once. And so how do we prevent that in the future? And how do we go above and beyond and And really, you know, provide support because then I'm just thinking about, of course, the financial impact, but the emotional impact of a re-victimization is probably um even much harder.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. and And we've seen so many instances because of that, oftentimes because of that heightened state. So when you just find out that this um is a scam and you are learning that there's a a strong likelihood you're not going to recover the financial part of it and you're looking, you're just looking, right? You're looking for solutions. And um we've had ah individuals who've reached out and gotten a lawyer who wasn't a lawyer because Again, that heightened state, you're making some decisions that you may not have you may have slowed down before. You may have done more vetting before. So now you've lost the the initial money, and then now you're paying $18,000 or $20,000 for someone who's not a lawyer. We had one person who actually got the them back into a scam, ah inadvertent not inadvertently, but got them back into a scam, acting as legal advice. And so um i kind of just heard one recently too, where somebody was was involved in a scam and someone kind of rescued them from the scam and then scammed them because they gained their trust back. And so it's so malicious, right? It's so, that the work is so diabolical and it's so harmful to victims who then don't know where to where to go, who to trust, don't trust themselves, don't trust others. And that's why when we look at things like these closed systems of like peer support, then we can bring vetted resources there. So like the scam justice clinic, that'd be a great one. So being able to tell people like, hold off on getting the lawyer, let's have a lawyer come and talk, one that we know does this kind of work. And then they can help you with what are you looking for in a lawyer? What what are the limitations of what lawyers can do for you? Is this the right investment? Like, do you have all the information to make a decision? That's a very different place than having 10 people who are all part of a care group going out on their own looking for legal advice and then coming back and sharing their legal advice that may not be good. So we have a lot of good controls around that. But I think those are those are the types of things that are really important in order to try to help people about re-victimization. That the stabilization is one of the biggest ones.
Speaker: We've got to have a place, and that's where I see peer support playing that role, is where you can come in and stabilize. And it can really give you an opportunity to figure out what are your next steps, because, you know, anytime you're under a great deal of stress, it's very hard to see what your path forward is. So we do have some tools and resources that are really step walk it out. Like here's step one, which is like most of the shut down your accounts, you know, freeze, freeze ah your bank account, you know, like stop engaging. and then we'll slowly start going through like other steps that go more into the healing aspect of it. It feels like it's a landmine out there, right? With all the criminals are getting so creative. So we have the classic scams, all the stories we know, ah investment scams, gift card scams, romance scams, expense fee scams, all these. And then you have the recovery scams. it It seems like wherever you go, this might be a scam. So for victims of scams and One of your members told me when we talked, we offered ScamRanger to them and we talked, one of your members told me, I don't open my email. I don't read my text messages. I don't answer the phone anymore. She is terrified and she lost trust in in digital communication. So i'm just thinking about the world is in this digital transformation where we want to engage more people. with our customers as businesses in a digital manner. But the criminals are really taking that trust away.
Speaker: So how do we navigate that? And how do we offer them the confidence and the peace of mind and the communications? Yeah, and I think we're we're learning as we go. um but I think one thing I'm very hopeful for is that we're learning with people who've been through the experience or worked with victims across ah many so sp spaces. And what I will say is that this is one of those spaces where people want to move often want to move into a place of empowerment. They don't want this to happen to someone else. And even for folks who quickly realize they they likely are not going to recover their money, the number one thing that they say is, I don't want it to happen to someone else. And so giving people these opportunities to um advocate, to um be part of policymaking, to be part of ah training some of these technologies and informing those, ah helping other victims, um speaking out. I mean, and these are very vulnerable places to be because in many places, people think that this still isn't, they don't acknowledge this as a crime.
Speaker: It's something that you, an individual fault is often how, and we've had this with other crime types over the years. And so, I mean, that the more we beat the drum to remind people that this is a crime, that this is um insidious that this is engineered, ah the more that we can help victims recognize ah opportunities for that kind of empowerment. And so what I love about that is when you ask for feedback from victims or you you give opportunities, they step into those spaces so hard because They're really looking for for answers as well as how can we protect more people? Because as you said, it's it's shape shifting constantly. And it's in as much as I love all the prevention efforts. I don't know if I see a world in which there are no victims. And so I think that this is where. Right. There's no no silver bullets, as you said. Right. Where we're going have to give equal understanding to the financial and to the recovery and the healing. And it can't be we're going to put all of the resources in the prevention only. And then we'll just see what happens with the healing and recovery. It'll take care of itself. And I can just tell you it won't. It's going to take the whole system. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: So if a financial institution is interested in this training, what should they do? Yeah, that ah it goes through the same same process. I mean, they can certainly reach out to me, but it'll probably be faster. um But we have a contact us form, which is a very quick form. And they just put what they're looking for. And then we'll have ah one of our representatives who who will reach out and really try to take the same approach is listen to what you're wanting. Try to understand what your team is experiencing, what your customers experiences and come back with ah solutions that really we build together. and We do all the building, but you're informing it. And then we test them out. You know, we really look to see like, how did this work in a real world application? And do we need to make adjustments? But we do a lot of metric in, which I think is very interesting. So we can really see like, where do we need to press in a little bit more? Where do we need to adapt a little bit differently? But then they also get um kind of ah an ongoing tools and resources and a toolkit that is really usable. I always think we create things that people can use the following Monday, and that's really what we're looking for when it comes to supporting industry. Amazing.
Speaker: I wanted to thank you so much for telling us about Give An Hour and sharing all the great work that you're doing. And it's really creating such a difference. And I think the more that the industry is aware of that work and how it can be leveraged and really not just at the point of after the scam, but how do we approach it at different phases and use psychology and trauma informed communication across the process, I think, you know, will Another step forward in the scam fighting.
Speaker: And technology. Yes. Yes. So thank you for what you do, because again, you've been such a great partner and, you know, you bring ah insights that we wouldn't have otherwise. So we do appreciate that so much. Thank you. I hope to see you again on the podcast in a few months and hearing about some more experiences of financial institutions that took up on this opportunity and have a wonderful day. Appreciate it Thank you.
