Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Better litter, better birds — what makes for better poultry litter management?
991 Plays11 days ago
K. Scott McKenzie, Ph.D., director of technical services with Enviro Tech, discusses good litter management with Mark Clements.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Series and Topic
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Future of Poultry podcast series.
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, I'm Mark Clements, Editor-in-Chief Poultry with What Global Media. And today on the podcast, we're going to talk about
Guest Introduction: Dr. K. Scott McKenzie
00:00:20
Speaker
litter. Phlox are in constant contact with litter throughout their lives and the failure to manage it well will undermine phlox performance. I'm delighted to welcome to the Future of Poultry podcast, Dr. K. Scott McKenzie, Director of Technical Services with Envirotech, a manufacturer and supplier of parasitic acid formulations. to discuss what makes for good litter management and what can happen when litter is poorly
Scope: North American Poultry Production
00:00:45
Speaker
managed.
00:00:46
Speaker
Welcome, Scott. Thank you for joining us today on the Future of Poultry podcast. Well, thank you, Mark. I appreciate the invitation and looking forward to hopefully uncovering some opportunities and solutions for our listeners.
00:00:59
Speaker
Could you give us, first of all, a top level overview of the issues that most producers face where litter management is concerned? Sure, Mark. You know, and I guess for a scope of today's discussion, I'm going to be speaking essentially to poultry production in North America, United States.
00:01:18
Speaker
That's my background and that's the perspective at which I see this. I know the across the globe, these issues are handled differently, but for U.S. s producers, which is for me, probably
Challenges in U.S. Poultry Litter Management
00:01:30
Speaker
a greater target of what I'm going to be discussing today, I'd like to sort of just put that a bit of a box around that. And obviously when we speak of litter management, a lot of what I will discuss will will translate over to global poultry production. But when litter is we talk about the subject of litter management.
00:01:49
Speaker
The U.S. has some attributes that may not translate all the way across. And so when I consider, you know, the issues that producers face, and I'll use that this in the United States again, as there is the grower, the contract grower for broilers, even turkeys and layers, many of those who contract took to grow layers, and that that relationship is increasing in the U.S.,
00:02:13
Speaker
You know, those, that group of folks has a task, a series of tasks to perform. And those tasks are monitored and outlined in contracts in the United States through an integrator, a larger company who sets the expectations. And so
Impact of Litter Management on Flock Performance
00:02:30
Speaker
when you look at the contract and you look at best management practices, which is what is how those expectations and issues are translated down to the grower,
00:02:40
Speaker
I really kind of put it in a couple of different buckets. Number one, the issues that they face is time. So time can translate to available labor. Time in the U.S. increasingly applies to out times. So the time between when birds are picked up for market or in the case of layers, depopulated until the time that fresh birds, new birds, new poults, new pullets or broiler chicks are brought in to grow. I've seen now in the U.S. over the past several months, some of these out times are just in a few days, even as short as four days. a couple of weeks ago was with a grower. So getting all the things done to prepare
00:03:22
Speaker
The production environment is quite daunting when you're down to days. I think the target number for the U.S. is around 14 to 18 days. 21 is even better, and obviously above that is better.
00:03:35
Speaker
The other issue is where do I prioritize what I'm doing with my litter in concert with the other things that I have to do? And i think litter management is viewed in general by the grower.
00:03:49
Speaker
And the integrator is very important, but it varies within a complex of what is done. So I would say that time is a consideration, availability and cost of fresh litter shavings, and the economics behind that is another issue. And then access to equipment and the expectations of that equipment to be used to, let's say, de-cake,
00:04:12
Speaker
the litter in between flocks or then pulverize or or sort of create a more homogenous layer of litter in preparation for new chicks is obviously very important.
00:04:23
Speaker
I think the third one is where does ammonia control fit into this this picture? The availability of the chemicals and a custom applicator in the case of the vast majority of the United States boiler production, turkeys are a bit different and then are growing Floor converted broiler house or organic cage-free layers and litter changing is obviously a growing concern and putting that down for ammonia control if you're gonna reuse litter. So that's another bucket. The final one is what are the disease issues?
00:04:58
Speaker
facing that barn,
Role of Litter Amendments in Management
00:05:00
Speaker
that flock that just left. Is it in every barn in a particular farm or is it just, you know, do we have a couple of hot barns that for some reason keep popping up from time to time? so you know, flock performance from inter-barn differences, and then how that particular farm may compare to what else is going on from disease and pathogen management across the complex is also important. So I think those are the big issues that producers face. And then, you know, again, time and money, it all comes down to that.
00:05:32
Speaker
How does good or bad litter management impact flock performance? Well, again, I kind of put it into two buckets. We tend to, with ah with putting our grower hat on, look at pounds of meat or a consistency of eggs. You know, I won't mention eggs much anymore, but for our meat birds, the pounds of meat is coming out the door at the end of the flock is the most important And so the big one, obviously, that can be a make or break deal or is high mortality, early mortality or mortality at a specific time that might, you know, be it related to how a disease cycle may hit, but 14 days or 21 days or 14 weeks or 12 weeks in the case of many turkey diseases. So
00:06:17
Speaker
The things that you do to start birds off right is so important. You know, ammonia control, obviously a great concern in the broiler industry. And so for the most part, the broiler guys are doing a fantastic job of engaging custom applicators, the ammonia control chemistry companies. And so that piece of it seems to do well. Obviously, flock performance with ammonia control is very important.
00:06:45
Speaker
for respiratory tract protection, for paws or the feet of the birds, making sure that piece is healthy as well. And just getting that immune system to on the vaccine that's just been administered or will be administered instead of dealing with having to reroute energy towards high ammonia levels.
00:07:06
Speaker
I think the other piece that litter management clearly impacts is how well you prepare that that, and again, this goes back to the grower, what am I doing to prepare this next flock to start off the best? And having a bit of knowledge about the disease history and is it uniform across the barn, very important.
00:07:27
Speaker
Have you had leaky water nipple drinkers or cup drinkers in this particular, these worst barns, or are they on a particular side of the farm where wind and water and rain and weather might be an issue? Did you skip or rush through a couple of barns when you were doing, you know, flattening out the litter after either wind rowing or just decaking? All these things can impact the flock, but current emerging diseases, i think of aviometa pneumovirus,
00:07:56
Speaker
We're seeing a lot of enterococcus in the broader side of this business. The ever-present seeming clostridium in turkeys, always fighting salmonella and e coli. These can all be impacted by really, it's not what you do, it's what you choose to skip or what you choose to rush through as a grower. So all these pathogens, viral and bacterial pathogens can be impacted by not doing
Antibiotic Resistance and Consumer Influence
00:08:20
Speaker
your best in between flocks.
00:08:22
Speaker
course, there are a variety of litter amendments that are available. Could you give us perhaps a top-level explanation of those and maybe detail their benefits and also their drawbacks, if you would? So, again, in the U.S., the broadly available litter amendments are acidic?
00:08:40
Speaker
They work in a couple of mechanisms to reduce ammonia in litter prior to placement of the flock of the next flock of chicks or poults. And they bring the pH of the litter down from, I'm going to use a rough number, 8, pH 8, down to a very acidic level fairly quickly, there some faster than others. But... bringing the pH down to two or three, even one if you use enough of the product. So the combination of the acid and the use of commonly sulfate chemistry, so aluminum sulfate and its derivatives, sodium bisulfate and sulfuric acid in presence of clay as a carrier, all of these materials do bring the pH of litter down, which is a hostile environment for the ammoniogenic bacteria. There's also chemistry where it creates a non-volatile, non-ammonia gas from the ammonia, the uric acid cycle that's happening in litter.
00:09:39
Speaker
Also, the the ability to capture some of that through ammonium sulfate. It's really just trying to take advantage of the acid chemistry to sequester or prevent the formation of ammonia. Again, to get these birds started off properly the best that they can until ventilation can be increased.
00:09:59
Speaker
And then once that happens, then ammonia can be released, can be assisted through standard ventilation. Does that answer the question, Mark? I think it does. Thank you. i was going to go on to ask, there are increasing concerns over antibiotic resistance and consumer pressures on welfare. I imagine those must play a part in how litter is managed. And perhaps you could tell us which are the latest developments and pressures if there are where litter management is concerned.
00:10:27
Speaker
Great question. I'll leave the organic piece out of it for now, but it's becoming a more and more important piece of raising poultry and litter management and things that you can add to or do to litter.
00:10:40
Speaker
When in the United States, we went significantly away from using poultry. Antibiotics as a management tool to only use in the most judicious way, both coccidiastats and antibiotics, as those really have found their way exiting the poultry production systems in the United States.
00:11:01
Speaker
It's left a gap. It's get left a gap because there are very few tools, practical tools, safe tools to use to to manage bacterial contamination. And so the antibiotic-free, no antibiotics ever, these types of setups, which represent the vast majority of production broilers and increasingly in turkeys, and and again, the to bring in the organic folks,
00:11:28
Speaker
The need for a tool that does not have to work by entering the bird and potentially impacting the bird throughout its microflora. And again, whether you which whichever side of the argument you'd like to take on residues or creating or pushing antibiotic resistance, genetics, and how those particular subvariants might emerge as concerning either poultry pathogen or food safety pathogen. I think that right now is the time to start thinking about litter management and an opportunity between flocks or even
00:12:09
Speaker
mid-flock application onto litter of something that is safe, that is sustainable environmentally, in a position to not impact runoff and to complement the existing ammonia treatment protocols.
00:12:25
Speaker
in a way that can help growers manage pathogens. And I say growers. I don't want to leave out one of the most important pieces of this, which is the veterinary community. i mean, but our veterinarians are extremely gifted and have looked at and are certainly pressured to come up with new vaccine strategies protocols and search new vaccine availabilities. I think an example for herb bacteria is the salmonella vaccines that are available.
00:12:52
Speaker
But there are so many bacteria, and we ask a lot of that immune system when we're already vaccinating against just a number of challenging viral organisms that are impacting the poultry production.
00:13:04
Speaker
I think between some of the more prevalent viruses and the just omnipresent bacteria that use litter between flocks. I think the time is right for looking at mid-flock or in-between flock application of a litter treatment that would help bring these levels of pathogens down would be a great tool for live production folks and our veterinary
Ideal Litter Management Programs
00:13:30
Speaker
community.
00:13:30
Speaker
So if we want to keep ammonia, moisture and contamination to an absolute minimum, what would an ideal litter management program look like? Talking about what's not litter, I think is worth the consideration first. So leaky water lines and water line management.
00:13:50
Speaker
And this is prior to litter, but it certainly impacts litter. You know, our business, we sell a few outstanding chemistries for water line cleaning in between blocks.
00:14:00
Speaker
And in the U.S., The number of farms that do that routinely or even at all seems to be in decline. It's not zero and it's not even a small percentage, you know, below 10% or anything like that, but it it is not increasing. I've been doing this 20 years and I've seen the water line in between flocks treatment being declined, declining and who's willing to do it. And I think that's an impact. on litter management, because if you're not doing that, the chances of having leaky nipples are, or leaky drinkers are certainly higher.
00:14:35
Speaker
Wet spots, microbes need, if we're not talking about the viruses and a host, Outside of the gut, a microbe needs just a little bit of temperature that's not terrible, a pH that's not terrible, some moisture, and an opportunity to get back inside the host.
00:14:52
Speaker
And water plays a key role in that. So translating over from leaking water to litter itself, best management practices would be you know to start off with a good decaking program, getting in there,
00:15:05
Speaker
And plenty of time to take out the right amount of cake and then to give yourself, again, plenty of time to go in and process that litter to make sure that there are no big chunks of hard litter left in there.
00:15:20
Speaker
Getting them down to something that is not as fine as coffee grounds. But somewhere around the largest particle size is being maybe the size of a nickel or a quarter. Probably a nickel is better nickel or penny.
00:15:32
Speaker
And that allows a few things. It allows that litter to not be compact. that And look, I know that smooth litter, smooth litter, beautiful smooth litter that just looks like it's, again, on coffee grounds, looks very nice. And you're thinking, oh, what a wonderful environment.
00:15:47
Speaker
But when you, if you look at the total depth of the litter, are you getting those ammonia bombs out of there? We call them the solid chunks of unprocessed litter where without, especially without proper pre-ventilation or running minimum ventilation during out times can be such a ticking time bomb. Proper decaking and then proper processing, but not over processing of a litter. is key best management practice.
00:16:15
Speaker
I think too, that having that good communication with your applicator or with the ammonia control treatment company that manufacturers at is key to knowing when is the best time.
00:16:26
Speaker
You get so many comments about from a grower to custom applicator. Hey, I'm getting birds on Friday. I know it's Tuesday. Can you come today or tomorrow? So thinking ahead, managing that communication,
00:16:39
Speaker
to
Innovations in Litter Management
00:16:40
Speaker
make sure the ammonia control product gets out in time is so important. So I would place those very high on the list. Giving yourself time to do the right job, I think is important and giving yourself enough time to do the job properly. If you've got 16 houses to get done in just a few days, maybe a couple of weeks, 10 days, you better be out there working every day or you're going to miss or you're going to have to rush through or you're going to skip something. And so time management,
00:17:08
Speaker
Very important to accomplish those goals. But that does sound quite labor intensive. What about if we were to go for a good enough management approach? Good enough management approach. Yeah.
00:17:20
Speaker
So you're talking about something like an advanced, I would call this advanced methodology like wind rowing. You know, I love windrowing. I think it's a fantastic tool, but I'll give you an example of things I've heard over the last year that are probably viewed as good enough management tools, or at least I'll give you one example.
00:17:41
Speaker
So instead of windrowing, it's summer, it's hot. So what I'm going to do is in between my my flocks during my out time, I'm going to close up the house tight.
00:17:54
Speaker
And I'm not going to do minimum ventilation. I'm going to let the house quote unquote cook. So it's going to get hot and get rid of these pathogens. That is, it seems like good enough management practice, but you're actually going backwards. Running minimum ventilation does a few things. It helps dry out the litter.
00:18:15
Speaker
And again, assuming you've gone in and decaked and done your pulverizing and all of this as well, you do have to complete at least the minimum number of tasks, which again, I've given you two examples of what to do with litter. I think very important to knock those off and good enough is at least those two, but running minimum ventilation It feels like you're burning extra electricity, but what you're also doing is setting up your ammonia control programs for success.
00:18:43
Speaker
Very important to do. And again, we're we're going to be asking that ammonia treatment to go in and reduce that pH significantly down to, you know, pH between one and three, one, two and a half. I mean, that's a lot of chemistry to apply to get those birds set up. So running minimum ventilation is important.
00:19:03
Speaker
But with this less thorough approach, does that not consequently come with a degree of risk? Yeah, it does. And for example, the less thorough approach is I'm going to not do litter processing. I'm just going to de-cake and then I'm going to let the house cook. if you're not If you're not getting into your corners, if you're not doing a thorough job, you're creating pockets where poultry pathogens and food safety pathogens can thrive. You're also not drying out that litter. So you're you've got these water moisture situations where I think it's a high risk too. If you're not going to smooth out the house properly, you create these ditches and tar tread areas. I mean, those are potential pitfalls that you can fall into as well. I think that sort of summarizes the risk reward.
00:19:48
Speaker
You know, and I will bring up this pH issue. I've talked about acid and I would be remiss to not talk about the parasitic acid chemistry that that you mentioned our company does make and launched actually earlier this year. The product is called PD-2 and it's a nice sort of piece to to crowbar into this thinking, but both the veterinary side, live production side, and even grower side, that in the past we've only had access to these acidic litter amendments.
00:20:19
Speaker
So the cool thing about PD-2 is And I'm still trying to work out the mechanism on how this might be tested, my theory, but it's a nice way to to think about the microbiome and pathogens and how they coexist with ammoniogenic bacteria, right? So we've got litter sitting here at pH, h again, around 8%.
00:20:44
Speaker
The PD-2 granule, which is from a physics perspective or physical aspect is very similar to PLT, the sodium bisulfate chemistry is sold in the United States.
00:20:55
Speaker
And even though it's parasitic acid, right? So you're thinking acid, the product is actually alkaline. It increases the pH of the litter from eight to about 10 very quickly. And that high pH of 10 lasts for almost seven days.
00:21:18
Speaker
That's not what does all the killing. The killing is done by parasitic acid chemistry that's formed in situ on the granule. And then like you see these litter amendments that are used currently, it permeates, it percolates throughout the litter.
00:21:32
Speaker
And as it's formed and does some pathogen reduction, commonly getting a one and a half, two log reduction, which is actually an amazing number if you consider. Yeah. You know, and I come from a background of disinfection and sterilization and sanitation. So those were commonly talking about three log, five log or greater from sterilization nomenclature.
00:21:56
Speaker
To get two logs in essentially 100% organic load is actually pretty amazing. And those are the numbers we see with gram negative bacteria in a trial that we did at Southern Poultry Research Group. Fantastic work done by Dr. Hoffaker. And again, hats off to him for putting that together with us.
00:22:16
Speaker
But by bringing the parasitic acid chemistry into the alkaline range, we actually potentiate the killing of microbes. And there's intellectual property from our company on that. And we learned that actually in poultry chiller water, that if we make the poultry chill water in the processing plants more alkaline, it makes parasitic acid work. Now, Mark, that's not intuitive, right? Why would you think that an acid would work better in an alkaline chemistry. Does that make sense to you?
00:22:49
Speaker
I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm sorry. It was a rhetorical question. I didn't mean to put you on the spot. When I joined this company, I just couldn't put my head around it. And I said, you're kidding. An acid works better in alkaline.
00:23:03
Speaker
And it just, it's not intuitive, but that's the brilliance of sort of accident accidental discovery when you do things and think outside the box, right? That was always, you know, the old days of Apple computer, you know, think different. And so that think different chemistry approach We discovered that the parasitic formation, the way that the chemists have put it together in PD2, actually works better in alkaline. And that's important for litter because the pH of litter is already alkaline. So we're not pushing against the existing pH.
00:23:36
Speaker
We're working with it. We're going in that alkaline direction. I think when you look at, and we've talked about the acidic litter amendments, where my theory is that if for a period of about seven days,
00:23:49
Speaker
Prior to applying an acidic litter amendment, we put down our PD-2 chemistry, let it let it do its job, and the pH will eventually shift back down to that litter pH of around 8. So it'll go from 8 quickly up to about 10, and then over seven days go back down to close to 8.
00:24:07
Speaker
If you follow that with an acidic litter amendment for ammonia control and utilize that ammonia-ammonium chemistry, then you're taking the litter... which is really, I think, the brilliance here, up, back to new well due back to slightly above neutral, way down acidic, and then back up to that neutral pH chemistry.
00:24:29
Speaker
What doesn't like big pH shifts? Pathogens. Pathogens do not like that. So I think the one-two punch combination of applying an alkaline litter amendment followed by an acidic ammonia control litter amendment A very good one-two punch.
00:24:49
Speaker
Now, does it take the place of best management practice? No. But is it a tool in the toolbox for veterinarians or live folks where i use
Final Tips and Advice
00:25:00
Speaker
the word idiopathic disease management is into play?
00:25:03
Speaker
Absolutely. You know, idiopathic meaning we've kind of got an idea, we've got a target list of pathogen or pathogens that we know are are hurting these birds that are increasing mortality, early, mid or late stage mortality. We know about when the breaks are, we understand our vaccine program. We haven't found an answer.
00:25:22
Speaker
I think this is the great slot that this fits in as a tool for litter management and Now you have to go in knowing that you need about 10 days prior to, or 10 to 12 days prior to placement to go ahead and put this chemistry down because it is gonna be alkaline. It's gonna take about a week and then follow it with your, whichever ammonia chemistry you like. I kind of like the idea of following a granule with a liquid just to make sure that chemistry is expired and then take advantage of a little bit of liquid. But I think any alkaline plus acid
00:25:58
Speaker
is a great one-two punch. Scott, tell me, is there an overarching principle that producers should keep in mind where litter management is concerned? We tend to think of litter between flocks as just an ammonia problem, and it's not. It's the everything problem. but It contains potentially urine and feces from our rodent vectors, right? It should be converted in the minds of producers that are trying to hit those contract numbers of, you know, i have to have ammonia down to X number, 5, 10, 20 PPM before the birds are placed.
00:26:36
Speaker
That's where they think litter is. I think a lot of growers view litter that way. I don't think a veterinarian does. I think the live folks look at it as in through the lens of disease management.
00:26:49
Speaker
and ammonia management. i mean, they're both so critical, but there are two buckets equally worth thinking about. So, the any anything you can do to dry the litter, to create a hostile environment for the pathogen itself is going to be nothing but an improvement for production and shouldn't be ignored.
00:27:11
Speaker
Scott, would you have any final thoughts for our listeners today where litter management is concerned before we close? I'll go back to ventilation and cost. I understand, and I think the industry understands, the cost of a full clean-out down to the pad is expensive, okay? And I get that.
00:27:30
Speaker
There also is a a concern amongst the wood chip or shavings community that if you don't get those shavings fully dry, that you create a whole second layer of problems. And that's true. There's a lot of truth to that. And I think I have a solution for that, but Mark, that'll be a discussion for another time.
00:27:48
Speaker
I think that for listeners today, give yourself time. I know that after those birds are gone, but you need a break. You've been picking up birds. You've been walking those houses.
00:27:59
Speaker
It feels like, especially if you've got a smaller farm, you know, four houses or even eight, if the birds are out for a while, man, I've got some days and it, I don't know why it always seems that equipment, fans and motors and lights and pumps, they're all important. I understand that.
00:28:16
Speaker
If you can get to the litter sooner rather than later, you won't be pinched and start having to make compromises. When the clock is ticking close to placement, you've put yourself in a bind with the ammonia control, with disease management, with getting that litter processed, flattened, decaked, ready for the birds to be placed.
00:28:41
Speaker
I don't know why it seems to be last minute. You know, I was a last minute studier in college. I'd cram in for the test. You know, that is never the best way. Think about maybe doing part of the litter early and then going to the equipment. Give yourself plenty of time though.
00:28:57
Speaker
When you put yourself in a time crunch, that's when compromises start having to be made. And with performance, payout, the mortality and the number of pounds, running minimum ventilation rather than having to be desperate right there at the end and run multiple fans. These are all those compromises that don't need to be don't need to be made if you give yourself good scheduling, good proper time and thorough.
00:29:23
Speaker
Do it corner to corner all the way across the house. Your litter will be in great shape. Put the right chemistry or in the case of PD-2, the right chemistries and sequins ahead of the flock and your profits should go up. You'll place better. There'll be more pounds of birds going to market, more eggs. And I just think that's where I'd like to leave it today. Give yourself time.
00:29:44
Speaker
Scott, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thanks you as well, Mark. I appreciate you. And you must come back again, as you mentioned, to talk about future developments. Listeners, thank you for joining the Future of Poultry podcast. And don't forget to look out for future editions. Goodbye.