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E136: Stevie Branch, Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore Part 2
4.1k Plays3 years ago
May 5th, 1993 was a tragic day for so many people in West Memphis Arkansas as three eight-year-old boys (Stevie Branch, Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore) went missing . By the next morning, instead of panic, the town felt palpable fear with the discover that the young second-graders had been brutally and senselessly murdered. By 1994, three local teens were in prison, convicted of the murders; but the story hasn’t ended there. This is part 2 of our series in which we examine the trials and convictions as well as explore various theories concerning who might be the perpetrator(s).
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
We are excited to announce that this episode is being sponsored by Zencaster, our very own podcast recording platform. Make sure you listen for more information in the middle of the episode and make sure you look in our show notes to see exactly why we love Zencaster so much and how you yourself can get a discount.
00:00:21
Speaker
All right, Sleuthhounds, we are about to begin part two on our case from last week, the murder of eight-year-olds Stevie Branch, Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore. If you haven't yet listened, or if you need to refresh your memory, go back to last week's episode to hear about the crime itself before coming back to this episode to explore with us the potential theories.
Podcast and Social Media Engagement
00:00:47
Speaker
Due to the graphic nature of the crime and other details we will be discussing this week, just like last week, listener discretion is strongly advised.
00:01:13
Speaker
Oh.
00:01:34
Speaker
Welcome to coffee and cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Alison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement.
00:01:50
Speaker
so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because, as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week. Shout out time, Allison! Let's go! Yeah!
00:02:17
Speaker
I wanted to start by saying thank you to Sarah and Amanda for reaching out to us on social media and to everybody who joined us live with Whitney and Melissa from Cults, Crimes, and Cabernet.
00:02:29
Speaker
That was so much fun. Guys, if you missed it, you can still watch it by going to Cults, Crimes, and Cabernet's Facebook page and watching it there. We also, I wanna give a shout out, got a new five-star written review. So a big thank you to Backwoods Chastity who wrote, quote, Alison and Maggie, I think y'all are my long lost besties. Keep up the awesome work and keep being y'alls witty selves.
00:02:58
Speaker
Much love from East Tennessee. I feel like we have got a lot of love from East Tennessee lately from Dolly Nation. I think we have.
00:03:09
Speaker
So thank you Chastity for reaching out to us.
The Bojangles Incident
00:03:12
Speaker
Allison and I will be everyone's long lost best friends honestly. Like we love everyone. The CNC family keeps growing and we're so excited to say that Chastity is also one of our newest Patreon members and we hope
00:03:30
Speaker
You all are enjoying the bonus content that we put on the side and we appreciate your support. If you'd like to hear some personal stories about us, some spooky stories or not so spooky stories, some solved cases, and have a little fun along the way with us, go to patreon.com slash coffee and cases to join us.
00:03:49
Speaker
Yes, and all of our current patrons, plus any new ones who join us by July 6th, will be entered into a drawing where Maggie and I will choose seven of you to receive a card from us and a coffee and cases key chain. So those seven winners will be announced on our seven seven episode. So on July 7th.
00:04:15
Speaker
So be one of those lucky seven and go join Patreon today at patreon.com slash coffee and cases. All right, Maggie, let's jump right in to part two. I am anxious. Let's go. We got some doozies of theories here. So within days of the bodies being found, there were several potential leads on who might have committed such a heinous crime immediately
00:04:45
Speaker
The police began asking around specific neighborhoods in West Memphis if anyone had seen the boys, about who knew the boys, and they were listening to any and every detail that came in. And that's kind of sad to think that there were so many possibilities from the get-go, but there were. One of the first stories was of a man seen at the local Bojangles restaurant.
00:05:13
Speaker
On the evening of May 5th, 1993, somewhere between 8 and 9.30, and I know that's a wide range, but reports varied on the time, but the same day that the boys went into Robin Hood Hills and never returned.
00:05:30
Speaker
a woman and her daughter who were visiting the restaurant hurriedly found the Bojangles manager to let him know that there was a black man bleeding and covered in mud who was in the women's restroom. Okay. Lots of strange things right there. Yes. Interestingly, no one had noticed him entering the restaurant, but now they had to attempt to remove him.
00:05:57
Speaker
When encountered by workers, he was sitting on the toilet in his own feces, obviously disoriented, and blood was smeared on the wall. An imprint left, it seemed, from his bloody forearm. So imagine feces and blood everywhere.
00:06:22
Speaker
The manager called the police, but by the time the officer got there to take the report, they had managed to get the man to leave. I think I would have kept him there until the police got there. Well, I don't know though, unless you're afraid he's going to do more damage and you're just like wanting to get him out. Please go. Especially if he's bothering customers.
00:06:44
Speaker
But the West Memphis officer who responded to the scene did not go inside to investigate, but took the report through the drive-thru. As the officer was taking the report, a call came in about a house egging and so the officer left.
00:07:05
Speaker
since I guess that was, you know, this situation had, you know, the man had left. So in essence, the situation was resolved, right? And so the officer went to- Yeah, kind of took care of himself. Yeah, something that was ongoing. Time-wise, even with the later potential sighting of the man around 9.30,
00:07:26
Speaker
At this point, though missing reports had been made for the boys, officers still had no idea that Stevie, Christopher, and Michael had been brutally murdered. Right, so at the time they're responding to this Bojangles, they might know if we're at the later end of that report of the sighting, they might know that the three boys are missing.
00:07:50
Speaker
but there's no way that officers would have connected these two events at this point. So what day you remind me did we figure out that they were dead? It was the very next day on May 6th in the afternoon. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So like I said, at this time, they didn't make a connection between this man as a potential perpetrator and the crime until after the bodies had been discovered the next day.
00:08:18
Speaker
By that point, by the next day, when police are thinking, oh my, here these three boys have been brutally murdered, there was a man who was sighted, covered in mud, right? Like as he would have been had he been at the crime scene.
00:08:36
Speaker
and covered in blood, maybe the two are connected. By the time the police came to the Bojangle scene to gather any potential evidence, the bathroom had been cleaned. Oh, sure, it had been cleaned. Yep, it was. Yep, so law enforcement was just left to like scrape walls and the floor drain in the bathroom to take in as much evidence as possible, like trying to get any remnants of the man's blood that was still there.
00:09:07
Speaker
And since then, even though there was some evidence collected, that evidence has since been lost. I don't understand really how that happens. Like how do you just lose evidence on a murder case? Yeah. I would think that it would be of the highest priority, especially in a, I know this wasn't a small town, but still this was unlike anything they'd really dealt with. So you'd think it would be,
00:09:34
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like even more under lock and key. That loss of evidence is frustrating because according to Mara Leveret's book about this case called Devil's Knot, a hare from a black male was found on a sheet that had been wrapped around one of the boys.
Suspicions on Local Teens
00:09:57
Speaker
Oh, so could that have been the same person? That's the question. And I mean, that hair might have been there because of secondary transfer, meaning
00:10:07
Speaker
You know, the DNA got there by being transferred by some other object or person. Like if one of the officers had a hair on his pant leg, right? That then ended up on the blanket. But like you said, alternatively, it may have been a clue to cracking the case, but without the Bojangles man's blood for comparison, we will never know if they're a match. So that's story one. This is coming out almost immediately.
00:10:38
Speaker
Another story came from a young man who knew Stevie Branch and the Hobbs family. This young man told police that two other young men from West Memphis, Brian Holland and Chris Morgan, had just days after the discovery of the bodies, just decided to go to California for several weeks.
00:11:02
Speaker
When you say young men, do you mean like 16 or 17 teenagers? I think they were late teens. Okay. Yes. But they just leave. And you know this Maggie from other cases that we've covered that choice to leave the area.
00:11:21
Speaker
Oh yeah, makes you look a little guilty. Yeah, because it is common for people who are guilty, right? Like if I leave this area, then I'm removing myself from the public eye, right? I'm not going to be able to jog anyone's memory, you know, those sorts of things. But right away, since these young men had gone to California, California State Police partnered with the West Memphis Police to track the two young men down and they quickly found them.
00:11:50
Speaker
Oh, good. Yes. The pair, Holland and Morgan, were interviewed for roughly eight hours and they were given polygraph tests for which the administrator of the test, and I know we talk about polygraph tests all the time and how they're not valid, they won't hold up in court, but I am going to tell you what the results were because it was in my research. The administrator of the test said that the two men both showed signs of deception
00:12:19
Speaker
when answering questions like whether they participated in the murders and whether they knew who was responsible for the murders. But I'm assuming though nothing really came from this because this case is still unsolved. Correct.
00:12:37
Speaker
Correct. Now, one of the reasons that the two men were of such interest to law enforcement was because Morgan's parents lived only a couple of houses down from the Hobbs. So he would have been familiar with these boys, where they would ride their bikes, where they would hang out, those sorts of things.
00:13:00
Speaker
But Morgan and Holland both argued to law enforcement that this trip to California, it wasn't a spontaneous one resulting from involvement with the crime. Instead, it was one that they had been waiting on for months to take because Morgan's sister lived in California and a friend of the two young men was stationed at a military base there.
00:13:24
Speaker
Oh, okay. Right. So there were reasons that they had to be in California. And during the time that they had already been there, Holland and Morgan had visited with both of those individuals. Okay, so they're able to back up the story they're telling. Right. So while that information makes the trip seem logical, there is one other detail that made police continue to question Morgan and Holland.
00:13:51
Speaker
During one point
Satanic Ritual Theories
00:13:52
Speaker
in the interrogation, Holland stated that he had heard that the boy's hands and feet were tied, but that he couldn't remember who he heard that from. That detail was one that had not been released by law enforcement. Right. So they're like, hmm. Okay. They're saying they have a logical reason, but how do they know this detail that we haven't released?
00:14:20
Speaker
They couldn't know who did it. Well, and I think that's what was in their mind. In their mind, they were thinking, OK, either Holland was there, right? And he saw Stevie Christopher and Michael murdered. And that's how he knew that detail. Or someone who was there had told Holland that detail. Oh, the other young man, Morgan, in a separate interview, after hours of maintaining his innocence,
00:14:48
Speaker
And I don't know if this was out of frustration or guilt. I mean, again, that's up to you, Maggie, and you sleuth hounds to decide. But after hours of maintaining his innocence, he stated, quote, do you want me to lie? Fine, I'll lie. OK, I killed them, end quote.
00:15:07
Speaker
Hmm. And though he took his words back immediately, indicating that he was just telling law enforcement what he thought they wanted to hear later in that interrogation. And again, I know this loses something by me not cursing, but I'm not going to curse. You'll understand what I'm saying just by
00:15:29
Speaker
my changes. Later in the interrogation, he said, quote, maybe I blacked out and killed three little boys and F'd them up the A double S or something. End quote.
00:15:42
Speaker
Okay, so the quote that says, do you want me to lie? Fine, I'll lie. That one I could maybe understand because you're probably tired. You've been there for a while. You're like exasperated, you know? Right. Want things to be over and you say something stupid and you're like, you know, I'm just saying that because that's what you want to hear. The other one though, I feel is very specific and very weird to say. Yeah.
00:16:08
Speaker
Yeah, that final statement for most people is so odd and distasteful that they think, okay, maybe they did have something to do with the crime. And I will say we didn't talk about this last episode. There is some debate on whether or not the young boys
00:16:29
Speaker
had been sexually assaulted. Okay, that's what I was going to ask you. Right. Because they were placed in water for so long, there wasn't like semen DNA evidence. At first, the argument was and the belief was that they were sexually assaulted. Now, there is an alternative theory and that is apparently with
00:16:59
Speaker
drowning as we know all of them were drowned because they were not dead when they were thrown into the water. Apparently the puckering of your anus is a sign, it's a reflex that happens with drowning. So they're not sure.
00:17:24
Speaker
Oh, and I know like we can't tell for sure, but I just feel that the one little boy that had the penis. Christopher Byers. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like that's really just very sexual and in nature. So it makes me wonder if maybe they were.
00:17:47
Speaker
Right. Now we will talk briefly about because in trial, again, just with that detail, the same as with the sexual assault, there are those who say this act of genital mutilation was clear and intentional and done by the perpetrator. Other theories argue that
00:18:09
Speaker
the scratches on the buoys and even what appears to be genital mutilation were caused post-mortem by turtles that were in the water. That would be interesting to hear. Right. So those are two theories that were already floating around and then a third theory began to develop.
00:18:33
Speaker
early in the day on May 6th, before the discovery of the three boys' bodies. So we're already at the next day, just hours before the bodies are found, okay? A woman by the name of Vicky Hutchison was brought into the Marion Police Department to be questioned by Detective Dawn Bray concerning accusations of Hutchison stealing money from her workplace. Now I know this seems off topic, but it's linked.
00:19:01
Speaker
In terms of the stolen money, Hutchison claimed that she was not guilty, and during the trial of our three primary suspects from last episode, Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miss Kelly Jr., you will see in just a moment why she was a witness. She claimed that all the charges against her in terms of stealing money had been dropped. While she was being questioned by the Marion Police Department about this separate issue,
00:19:30
Speaker
Hutchison was visibly upset. In trial, when she testified, she claimed that it was because she was worried about the boys, who at this point were still missing. You see, Hutchison had two sons, an older son and a younger eight-year-old son named Aaron, who was good friends with the boys.
00:19:53
Speaker
Okay. So she comes in because she's stealing money from her workplace while they're questioning her about the money. That's when she's visibly upset because her son is friends with them. Right. And she says that that's why. So again, remember they're interested in talking to anybody and everybody who know the boys as well. Right. So law enforcement decides they need to question Aaron Hutchison, her eight year old son and talk
00:20:23
Speaker
He did. Ultimately, Aaron Hutchinson told the Marion police, now this is again, not the West Memphis police, we're in like a town over. He told the Marion police that he, Michael and Christopher, so not Stevie Branch necessarily, but he, Michael and Christopher often went into Robin Hood Hills to play because they had a clubhouse there.
00:20:50
Speaker
He admitted that he wasn't there to see what happened to the boys on this particular day because his mom wouldn't let him go play. But when he was asked what he thought may have happened, he gave a detailed response based upon other activity that he claimed to have witnessed at other times when he, Michael, and Christopher visited their clubhouse.
00:21:18
Speaker
I'm intrigued. He said that when they went there, because remember, this is in a wooded area, they often saw people, he said around his mom's age, and his mom was around 30, having sex with their mouths with one another. He also stated that he saw those same people making animal sacrifices in the woods.
00:21:43
Speaker
And you did say that last week that this was kind of a rough area that was known for that type of thing. Exactly. Yes. So now you can see how the idea of a satanic ritual was born, you know, as we talked about last week and why that theory spread. Um, it's, it sure seemed that some sort of ritual was going on by the description and Vicky Hutchison, Aaron's mom,
00:22:11
Speaker
volunteered the information that she knew of individuals who may be involved in that kind of activity. Aaron's mom Vicky was one of Jesse Miss Kelly Jr.'s neighbors and had heard rumors of Damien Eccles' involvement with the occult. So now you see how she's tied with the three.
00:22:39
Speaker
Hutchison stated during trial that she decided to quote, play detective and find out what happened to Stevie Christopher and Michael. So in order to do that, she needed Jesse, Ms. Kelly Jr. to introduce her to Damien Eccles and to try to lure him into saying something incriminating. So she went to the local library to check out books on the Wiccan religion and on cults.
00:23:07
Speaker
and she lay out those books on her coffee table so that they would be visible when Eccles arrived. I don't understand really how she did this. Like you just go up to your young neighbor and be like, I really want to meet your friend, Damien. Bring him over to my house. I think that's kind of how it went down. Okay. That seems pretty risky though, you know. Yeah.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah. But while Hutchison stated that, initially she stated that all of this was her own idea that she decided to quote, play detective, other sources mentioned that the interaction was being taped by the West Memphis police.
Misskelley's Confession and Recantation
00:23:47
Speaker
So I'm not really sure whether Hutchison supplied the audio to the police or whether she told the police that this was something that she wanted to do. And then the police were the ones who suggested recording it. I'm not sure on that part.
00:24:04
Speaker
But on June 2nd, 1993, Vicki Hutchison told police that a couple of weeks after the murders, on May 19th, 1993, she had attended an ESPET, which is a Wiccan ceremony, and she described it as a satanic ritual.
00:24:24
Speaker
She said, yes, she said that Damien Eccles and Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. had picked her up in a Redford escort and driven her to attend this ceremony. But she said that once an orgy started, she grew uncomfortable and asked to be brought back home. She alleges that Damien Eccles drove her home, but that Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. stayed.
00:24:54
Speaker
Vicky Hutchison was given and passed a polygraph when describing this event. So the very next day, Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. was brought in for questioning. I just think that would be so scary and awkward.
00:25:15
Speaker
Because one, if they did do the murder, you've turned them in and you live next door to them. If they didn't commit the murder, then you've basically slender their reputation as a person. Exactly. So either way, you have to move. Right. Yeah. Witness protection. Either way.
00:25:33
Speaker
Now, what's interesting is these statements that Vicky Hutchison was making to the police that she knew of people who were involved in the occult that she wanted to or was told to play detective to try to catch Damien Echols.
00:25:48
Speaker
Her statements were rumored to have echoed a statement that was made by juvenile probation officer Jerry Driver. Remember, he was at the crime scene discovering the shoes and the bodies. While there at the crime scene, I'm guessing in reference to Eccles past criminal record, his battle with mental illness and his interest in the occult, all of which we will talk about. But he is rumored to have stated, quote,
00:26:18
Speaker
It looks like Damien Eccles finally killed someone." End quote. I don't like that though. Not very professional. No, no. But the theory revolving around Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miss Kelly Jr., obviously you see it's now forming. On June 3rd, 1993, Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. was brought in for questioning.
00:26:44
Speaker
During that interrogation, he was shown a picture of the body of one of the boys, which Chief Inspector Gary Gitchell said that Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. just stared at. Then, Gitchell played a clip from Aaron Hutchison, remember the eight-year-old? His interrogation, the clip he played is one where Aaron stated, quote, well, this is a portion of what he stated, but the portion said,
00:27:14
Speaker
Nobody knows what happened, but me. And when Gitchell played that clip, he stated to the court, quote, immediately, he, meaning Jesse, Ms. Kelly, Jr. wanted to tell us about it, to tell him it was off the ground. Oh, so he's going to confess? Yes. So Ms. Kelly said that he, Jason Baldwin, and Damien Eccles had committed the murders.
00:27:44
Speaker
He stated that they all went to Robin Hood Hills from the Blue Beacon truck wash side. And he said that he, Damien, and Jason had been playing in the water when the three boys approached. It was then that Miss Kelly said Damien had assaulted Christopher Byers by hitting him, quote, with his fist and bruised him all up real bad. And then Jason turned around and hit Steve Branch.
00:28:13
Speaker
Then the other one took off. Michael Moore took off running. So I chased him and grabbed him and hold him until they got there. And I left." End quote. Now was Michael Moore the one that was found a little further away than the other ones? He was indeed. Ms. Kelly said that he returned later. End quote. They had tied them up, tied their hands up.
00:28:41
Speaker
They started screwing them and stuff, cutting them and stuff. And I saw it and turned around and looked, and then I took off running. I went home. Then they called me and asked me how come I didn't stay. I told them I just couldn't." So that's looking pretty bad. There are some elements of Miss Kelly's
00:29:09
Speaker
confession though, that don't fit. Like when he was asked about what the boys were tied up with, which should have been pretty clear, Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. said they used brown rope. Like the congee would make a tree swing with? I'm guessing, yeah. And remember the shoelaces, they're either black or white. There's none that are- Yeah, and there's the one piece of string, right? Right, and it was also black.
00:29:40
Speaker
To be specific about the attack, here is part of the conversation that Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. had with detectives Ridge and Chief Investigator Gary Gitchell. I'll play all the sides. I'll just say who's speaking and what they said. Detective Ridge, who had a knife? Miss Kelly, Jason.
00:30:04
Speaker
Ridge, Jason had a knife. What did he cut with the knife? What did you see him cut or who did you see him cut? Miss Kelly, I saw him cut one of the little boys. Ridge, all right, where did he cut him? Miss Kelly, he was cutting him in the face. Ridge, cutting in the face? All right, another boy was cut, I understand. Where was he cut at? Miss Kelly, at the bottom.
00:30:31
Speaker
Ridge on his bottom. Was he faced down when he was cutting him or Miss Kelly? Mm hmm. Detective Gitchell in his groin area. Miss Kelly. There was silence. We assumed that he nodded. Gitchell. Okay. Ridge. Do you know what his penis is? Miss Kelly. Mm hmm. That's where he was cut at. Ridge. That's where he was cut.
00:31:00
Speaker
Gitchill, which boy was that? Miss Kelly, that right there. Gitchill, you're talking about the buyer's boy again? Miss Kelly, mm-hmm. Ridge, are you sure that he was the one that was cut? Miss Kelly, that's the one that I seen them cutting on. Ridge, all right, do you know what a penis is? Miss Kelly, mm-hmm. Ridge, all right, is that where he was cutting?
00:31:28
Speaker
Ms. Kelly, that's where I seen them going down at, and he was on his back. I seen them going down right there real close to his penis and stuff, and I saw some blood, and that's when I took off," end quote. No. But I will tell you that description. So he was pointing at a picture, and he pointed to Christopher Byers, who was the only one of the three who had that genital mutilation.
00:31:58
Speaker
Ms. Kelly went on to describe the act that he, Eccles, and Baldwin would do in the woods that could only be described as ritualistic, including killing dogs, cooking them. No, sir. Yes, cooking them and eating them to be initiated into the cult. So Ms. Kelly told Ridge and Gitchell about that, quote unquote, initiation.
00:32:25
Speaker
Coming back to the crime itself and their questioning, Ms. Kelly went on to describe what all three of them were wearing. So what Eccles, Baldwin, and he was wearing. When asked where his shoes were from that night, because remember there were footprints in the bank, right? And it looked like they were tennis shoes. He said he himself was wearing tennis shoes. So when he was asked where his shoes were that he wore that evening,
00:32:54
Speaker
Ms. Kelly said that he gave them to a friend, Buddy Lucas, to borrow. And I want you to remember that detail, that he lent them to Buddy Lucas, because we're gonna come back to it in a bit.
00:33:09
Speaker
Okay. Parts of the confession, though, as you can imagine, were peaking the interest of law enforcement, especially since it wasn't common knowledge that the boys had been tied up like I mentioned before, right? Michael running away like you caught that detail, Maggie. Michael running away and Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. going to catch him would explain why his body was found 27 feet upstream from the other two boys.
00:33:37
Speaker
And you have this detail where he's pointing out the one of the three who actually had genital mutilation. Yeah, so a lot of things not most people would know. Right. From law enforcement's side, the Hutchison statements, both Vicki and Aaron, weren't the only ones seeming to implicate at least Damien Eccles, if not all three of them, in the crime.
00:34:05
Speaker
A woman named Darlene Hollingsworth contacted West Memphis police on May 10th, just days after the crime, to say that she had seen both Damien and his girlfriend, Dominie, at the Robin Hood Hills area. So at the scene of the murder. So this one doesn't have, this sighting doesn't have Damien, Jason, and Jesse, Ms. Kelly. It has Damien and his girlfriend, Dominie, at the Robin Hood Hills.
00:34:35
Speaker
And this caller said that her nephew, LG Hollingsworth, had actually been at the laundromat that very evening of the murders, washing Damien and Dominie's clothing. Hmm, looks a little suspicious. Yes. She also said to the police that Damien's mother would lie about his whereabouts to protect him.
00:35:00
Speaker
So you're getting all of these stories about Damien, plus there were other rumors from many others around town about Damien's odd behavior on multiple occasions and about a collection of cat skulls that he was said to have in his room. Okay. Now, this is not to say that the argument against Damien was ironclad,
00:35:30
Speaker
Because problematically, there were many parts of Aaron Hutchison's confession. Remember, he's the young one who said, here's what we had seen there right in the past. There are many parts of his confession, which is recorded, that could be seen as coerced. So let me give you an example.
00:35:54
Speaker
when he was describing what they saw in the woods in terms of animal sacrifice, remember I mentioned that to you earlier. So that was a tie between Aaron Hutchinson saying, yeah, Christopher Michael and I often went into the woods and we saw these animal sacrifices happening, right? And then Jesse Miss Kelly saying that they had those animal sacrifices as a ritual initiation in the woods, right?
00:36:26
Speaker
That discussion by Aaron Hutchison might have been coerced because when he was describing the animal sacrifice, Aaron first said, they said, what animals did you see in the woods? And he said, there was only a dog there and the men in the woods were mean to it. Then Detective Ridge said, okay, how about some cats? Were there some cats out there? To which Aaron answers, yeah, they caught cat. They cut his head off and ate it.
00:36:55
Speaker
Ridge, they did what? Aaron ate a cat. Ridge, goodness, did they eat his head or did they eat the whole cat? Aaron, they ate the whole cat but his head. Ridge, everything but his head. Gitchell, did they cook him first? Aaron, they cooked him first, cut off his head, and then cooked him and then ate him.
00:37:19
Speaker
ridge what did they do with his head did they keep it erin i think they keep it end quote so it does kind of seem like he's just almost making a story to answer the questions as he goes right yeah like they would say did they cook it and then he says yeah they cooked it did they keep the cat head yeah they kept it
00:37:43
Speaker
Because at first he says, they cut off the head and they ate it. And they're like, they ate the cat. Did they eat the head? Did they keep the head? Oh, they kept the head. Right. Everything but the head. Right. It went from them eating the head to them eating everything but the head. And so knowing what we know of Miss Kelly's interrogation, those who want to say that this
00:38:05
Speaker
statement was coerced, it becomes clear why the question was asked about cooking the animal. Because remember he said that they cooked the dog and ate it. So now it's clear why they asked that question. And knowing the rumors of Eccles' collection of cat skulls, now you understand why they asked the question, well, were cats there? Right? Because then it would, again, tie Eccles to the scene.
00:38:32
Speaker
Given other statements, details, and interrogations that would go on to happen over the next few weeks, Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. were arrested and their trial dates set. Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. had to be tried first, and Eccles and Baldwin would be jointly tried afterward. According to Miss Kelly's legal defense team,
00:39:02
Speaker
There were questionable tactics by law enforcement from the very beginning. So coupled with the fact that every subsequent confession that Aaron Hutchison gave, his story changed, has made many who follow the case question the authenticity of any of the details that Aaron gave to law enforcement. So that same boy who was talking about the animal sacrifice, by June 9th,
00:39:31
Speaker
Aaron Hutchison stated to police that he actually did witness the murder of his friends. Remember before he said his mom won't let him go. Right. By June 9th, he's saying, oh, I did see it. And Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. had actually invited me to come to the woods and to bring my friends with me on May 5th. He said- So the mom wasn't he killed?
00:39:57
Speaker
Well, he never answers that. He says that he was also tied up at one point, but that he was able to get away. Then he says in that same statement that he saw Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. cut Christopher in his privates. But then Miss Kelly said he left at that point. Right. And then in a third statement made by Aaron Hutchison,
00:40:26
Speaker
His story changes again. And he says that, no, it wasn't Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. who cut Christopher in his privates. They handed me the knife and forced me to cut Christopher in his privates. So you see all the different changes that are happening. And now you see why his whole statement in general has been called into question.
00:40:56
Speaker
And if we have no ritualistic, satanic activity going on, if we don't have Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. coming into the woods, you know, and doing all this stuff, then we have no case. But we do have Jesse Miss Kelly Jr.'s confession. But one of the main issues that's brought up by the defense about the case and related to Miss Kelly's confession
00:41:23
Speaker
is linked to the fact that Jesse Miss Kelly Junior's IQ was 72. So low. Yes. This IQ, according to psychiatry.org, reveals, quote, significant limitation in intellectual functioning, end quote. And it indicates an IQ around that of a third or fourth grader. Add to that fact that Miss Kelly was a minor. He was only 17.
00:41:54
Speaker
and when he was interrogated for many hours with only 46 minutes of that interrogation recorded, there are some who have argued that Miss Kelly was questioned without his father's consent and inappropriately.
00:42:13
Speaker
Right, because when you're a minor, your parents have to give consent. And then can your parents be in the room with you in your question or no? That I don't know, but I will say research does say that his father gave permission for Miss Kelly to go with the police. But we don't know what specific permissions his father gave.
00:42:38
Speaker
Okay. And so really to argue that his father gave permission or didn't give permission would be pure speculation on either side. But what the defense would later argue for Miss Kelly is that his IQ would have made it extremely easy for law enforcement, just like with Aaron Hutchison and that claim of coercion, to suggest a narrative that Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. would then adopt as his own.
00:43:08
Speaker
Right, because mentally, Miss Kelly and Aaron are pretty equal intelligence wise. Exactly. And we do know of some changes that occurred during the course of the interrogation.
The Trials and Convictions
00:43:22
Speaker
So when Miss Kelly was brought in, you know, I told you the main story that he told. At first, Miss Kelly said that he, Baldwin and Eccles, arrived at Robin Hood Hills around 9 a.m.
00:43:36
Speaker
And he said, that's when the crime occurred, but that couldn't have been possible because Stevie Branch, Christopher Byers and Michael Moore were at school that day, all day. Eventually, Ms. Kelly pushes the time back to another time that the boys would have still been in school. So again, it wasn't possible. On a third attempt, Ms. Kelly puts them seeing the boys around five to 6 p.m.
00:44:05
Speaker
but most people would agree that the crime occurred sometime between 645 and eight. Right. Cause we have the soddings of them on their bicycles and all that stuff. Right. At six o'clock. Then in a fourth statement, Ms. Kelly finally said that the eight year olds got there around seven.
00:44:27
Speaker
And that changing of the timeline is one that supporters of Eccles Baldwin and Miss Kelly would later argue was coerced by police and not an accurate recollection. Like saying something like, oh, so what did you do when it was getting dark? Yeah, it was getting dark. Kind of like with Aaron Hutchison and the cat.
00:44:52
Speaker
After the confession, Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. recanted it nearly immediately. Much later, here's what he said of that time. Quote, they kept saying they knew I'd had something to do with it because other people had told them. After I told them what the three boys were wearing,
00:45:13
Speaker
Gary Gitchill told me, was any of them tied up? That's when I went along with him. I repeated what he had told me. I said, yeah, they were tied up. He asked, what was they tied up with?
00:45:25
Speaker
I told him a rope. He got mad. He said, gee, Dee, Jesse, don't mess with me. He said, no, they was tied up with shoestrings. I had to go through with the story again until I got it right. They hollered at me until I got it right. So whatever he was telling me, I started telling him back. But I figured something was wrong, because if I'd killed him, I'd have known how I'd done it." End quote. It's kind of a little sad.
00:45:54
Speaker
if that's true. Right. Because we don't know. Obviously, Gary Gitchill, when he was on the stand, said that they did absolutely no coercion. They didn't yell. And he admitted that there were some people who they interrogated about this case who he did yell at. He actually admitted on the stand, on one of the times he was on the stand, that he had struck someone across the face to try to get them to answer a question.
00:46:22
Speaker
but that he did not do that with Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. And I think just reading and listening to you read his speech, you can see I think how low his IQ level is and it's sad. And while those problems might have normally put prosecution on the edge,
00:46:46
Speaker
at the later trial thinking, oh no, we've got to figure out a way to explain why he's saying this. Problematic details for Eccles, Baldwin, and Miss Kelly also arose. Specifically, the confession that I've been talking about that Miss Kelly went on to recant, that he went on to say, oh no, that wasn't true. I didn't mean that. Wasn't the only confession that he made.
00:47:13
Speaker
On February 17, 1994, eight months after the first confession, Ms. Kelly again made a confession to police. This time, his own lawyers first advised him not to say anything, but he went on to discuss in detail how Stevie Christopher and Michael were murdered.
00:47:39
Speaker
According to an article in NPR dated April 11th, 2008, quote, Jesse confessed a third time with prosecutors and defense lawyers in the room and a tape recorder running. And the story was substantially the same, end quote. That's interesting. Yes. So he's saying, they forced me to say it,
00:48:05
Speaker
prosecutors are saying, then why did he confess a second time and a third time? Right, and completely on his own, against his lawyers' wishes the third time. Right. Of his confidence that they had arrested the correct perpetrators in this case,
00:48:24
Speaker
Chief Inspector Gary Gitchell at a press conference on June 4th, 1993, so the morning after the three teens had been charged with three counts of capital murder, noted that on a scale of one to 10, his confidence was an 11. Okay. Jesse Miss Kelly Jr.'s trial began on January 26th, 1994.
00:48:49
Speaker
At the trial, many witnesses were brought forward to testify that Miss Kelly had a reputation for getting into physical altercations and had links to a cult. Those witnesses, alongside Miss Kelly's own taped confession, was likely enough to convict on their own. But there was one other taped statement that would be the nail in the coffin for Miss Kelly's case.
00:49:18
Speaker
Buddy Lucas. The shoe boy. Yes. The one to whom Ms. Kelly had loaned a pair of shoes. Here is an excerpt of the statements that Buddy Lucas made to Detective Ridge. Ridge. Okay. Thursday morning after this Wednesday, you went to his house. Lucas. Uh-huh. Ridge. He tells you he's in some trouble. Lucas. Uh-huh.
00:49:45
Speaker
Ridge. And what did he tell you he was in trouble over? Lucas. That he really, he said, um, we hurt, uh, uh, we hurt a couple of boys that Jason and Damien killed. Ridge.
00:50:01
Speaker
Okay, Lucas. I said, was you involved? He said, yeah. I said, what did you do? I finally got it talked out of him. What did he do? He said, I hit a couple in the back of the head. Ridge. Okay. And Lucas and everything to keep them from running and everything.
00:50:24
Speaker
Ridge, and that's what he told you? Lucas, yes, sir. Ridge, and this on the Thursday morning. Lucas, uh-huh. Ridge, okay. Lucas, the two shoes he gave me and everything. Ridge, did he give you some shoes on that Thursday morning? Lucas, uh-huh. Ridge, okay, and describe to me how he gave you those shoes.
00:50:46
Speaker
Lucas, he picked up and started to hand them to me. All of a sudden, he dropped them and broke out in sweat, crying, everything else. He said, man, take those shoes. I don't want to see them no more. I said, you sure and everything? I don't remember seeing those shoes at his house. He said, I said, they're yours. He said,
00:51:09
Speaker
Yeah. So I said, he said, take them. I don't want to see them no more. I said, are you sure you want me to take them? And he said, yeah, and everything. So there wasn't nothing on the shoes and everything. So turn around. He's going. I got the shoes. I went home and everything. Ridge, after you got the shoes, did he say, what did he say exactly to you about those shoes? Lucas, that he didn't want to see them anymore. End quote.
00:51:38
Speaker
No, because those could be the shoes. Right, exactly. Or they're associated, even if it's not the shoe imprint in the mud, it's associated with that memory potentially. So in spite of the holes in that the defense tried to poke in the prosecution's argument, Ms. Kelly was found guilty.
00:52:02
Speaker
However, moving forward, Miss Kelly refused to repeat his confession during the trials of Eccles and Baldwin, who were tried together since they were the ones on whom Miss Kelly had placed the act of murder. Because remember, Miss Kelly basically just said he caught Michael Moore and brought him back, but then he left.
00:52:23
Speaker
I'm sure part of that move of trying the two together was strategic as well because without Ms. Kelly's confession, most of the evidence, as you'll see in just a moment, was linked to Eccles and not to Baldwin. The two were tried together beginning on February 28, 1994. It didn't help their case, the fact that both Damien Eccles and Jason Baldwin had been arrested before.
00:52:52
Speaker
While the crimes were vandalism and shoplifting, so crimes far removed from murder, it was used to show that they didn't respect laws. Also damning were the details prosecutors used of Damien Eccles' mental illness and his time spent in an Arkansas mental institution. Dr. Wood, who was actually a witness for the defense, so he was a witness for Eccles and Baldwin,
00:53:21
Speaker
testified that Eccles suffered from, quote, serious mental illness characterized by grandiose and persecutory delusions, auditory and visual hallucinations, disordered thought processes, substantial lack of insight and chronic incapacitating mood swings, end quote. So is his lawyer trying to maybe get an insanity plea?
00:53:50
Speaker
I think they were, it was an attempt, yes, in terms of the punishment phase because that's when it would really matter. And I will say that Damien Eccles did receive disability because of his mental health issues. At one point during the trial where reports were even presented to the court,
00:54:18
Speaker
that Damien claimed to have, quote, superpowers by drinking human blood. And that was something that he stated to an evaluator when he was asking for that disability for his mental illness.
00:54:35
Speaker
From the time Damien was small, his father, Jack Eccles, this was a statement made by his dad, said, quote, he got really sad sometimes and no one, including Damien, had any idea what was wrong. He cried really hard. And I asked him what was making him so sad. And he told me that he didn't know. Damien used to spend a few days in a row where he cried really hard.
00:54:58
Speaker
Sometimes it seemed like he was having trouble with his breathing because he cried so much. During these periods, Damien sometimes started laughing uncontrollably, just like one of those laughs that comes from the belly. It was very strange to me that he went from crying to laughing.
00:55:16
Speaker
And I was confused about why he did this." Additionally, Glory Shettles, an investigator for Damien and his trial counsel who met with Damien Weekly to evaluate his behavior, stated of him, quote, he believed that he was an outsider to whom no one could relate.
00:55:36
Speaker
He believed he was an alien and discussed it with his mother from the time he was a small child of only three or four. It was not an analogy. It was a concrete belief that he was from another world, another planet. He was consumed with the belief that he was not of this world and talked about it on numerous occasions."
00:56:01
Speaker
So because of these differences, because his behavior wasn't the quote unquote norm, because of this belief and the statements that he was like an alien, those were reasons why many who believe that Eccles, Baldwin and Miss Kelly are innocent, they believe that they were kind of the scapegoats.
00:56:29
Speaker
Yeah, like an easy way out. Right. But you can see why, especially in 1993, and we're talking during the satanic panic, why there was so much fear centered around Damien Eccles specifically. Exhibit 500 from the trial in Damien's own handwriting was a self description as homicidal, suicidal, schizophrenic,
00:56:58
Speaker
manic depressive sociopath. Those self-assigned adjectives match descriptions of Damien's that were stated in the trial by other people, like that given by Amanda Lancaster of Damien walking around town with dog intestines around his neck. Or that given by a couple of girls who stated that they overheard Damien at a softball game bragging
00:57:27
Speaker
that he had killed the three second graders and that he already knew who his next targets would be. Later, I know, I will say related to that later in an interview with 48 hours, he was asked about that statement and Damien said that if he did make those comments, quote, it would have been like a joke, end quote.
00:57:54
Speaker
And I know a lot of kids joke about things that you're not supposed to joke about. And that's one of those things you just don't joke about. Right. And that's also because it's not something that we would normally joke about. That's kind of seen as it's like those comments at the beginning by Morgan. It's so distasteful that it makes people question.
00:58:17
Speaker
There were also comments in Damien's journal like the following, quote, even after I die, people are going to remember me forever. They're going to be talking about me for years. People will tell their kids stories. It will be like I'm the West Memphis boogeyman. Little kids will be looking under their beds before they go to bed. Damien might be under there, end quote.
00:58:41
Speaker
Oh, that looks creepy. I know. So while that journal entry represents precisely how he may have felt he was being portrayed, that statement did not bode well for Damien.
00:58:55
Speaker
There were also inconsistencies in Eccles statements as well. For example, he said that he wasn't even from West Memphis and that he rarely went there. However, witness after witness placed Damien walking the streets of West Memphis, frequenting the Walmart and often in the area.
00:59:16
Speaker
During the trial, Detective Brian Ridge said that during Damien's interrogation at the police station, when questioned concerning details of the crime, he had made comments about the quote, mystical significance of water, about how all people had quote, demonic forces inside them, and how the number three, like the boys, was quote, a sacred number to the Wicca religion, end quote.
00:59:46
Speaker
Again, just really odd statements. Just weird comments. Exactly. Exactly. So those comments from Damien, paraphrased by a detective, centered on details that would indicate the crime as one linked to the Wiccan religion and to those who were sitting on the jury to the satanic panic.
01:00:06
Speaker
Also presented at trial was the argument that the green fiber, do you remember there was a green fiber and a red fiber that we talked about last time, that the green fiber found on the Cub Scout cap was, quote, microscopically similar, end quote, to a shirt found in Eccles house.
01:00:25
Speaker
and the blue candle wax found on Stevie Branch's shirt matched a blue candle found at Damien's house as well as one found at his girlfriend's home. So how statistically how common would it be for something to be microscopically similar? It could have matched a lot of things.
01:00:47
Speaker
Okay, right. Eccles argued during trial that he didn't know any of the three boys and that he didn't commit the crimes because he had been at home that entire evening with his mom and on the phone with various girls. He had an alibi.
01:01:05
Speaker
But wasn't this the same one whose people said his parents would lie about where he was? That's what, yes, the Hollingsworth and Arlene Hollingsworth had said. During trial, Doubt was cast on the timeline linked with that alibi, however. So he said that he had been on the phone on May 5th, 1993, with Holly George, Heather Cleatt and Dominie Tier. Dominie was his girlfriend.
01:01:35
Speaker
Damien said that he and his mother went to visit friends in town. That was corroborated, I will say. And then that he was on the phone with several girls during the times when the boys were believed to have been murdered. But what time do they go to town? So those stories have them in town and most people remembered seeing them because 90210 was coming on and it came on at seven.
01:02:04
Speaker
Okay. Okay. But we believe the boys were killed sometime between six 45 and eight. So he says it couldn't have been me. We were in town. We have that verified. And that then he was on the phone with these girls. However, Holly George stated that she did speak with Damien, but that it was between three and 4pm, not later that evening.
01:02:30
Speaker
Heather Cleatt stated that she had tried to call Damien, but that she wasn't able to reach him until around 10.30 p.m. Domini last spoke with Damien around 5 to 5.30 when they argued and then didn't speak with him again until around 10 p.m. that night.
01:02:53
Speaker
Another girl, Jennifer Bearden, called Jason Baldwin's house and said that she spoke with Damien and Jason for around 20 minutes, sometime between 4.15 and 5.30, and that Jason told her that they were, quote, going somewhere and to call back at Damien's house around eight.
01:03:16
Speaker
She said she did call it 8, but Damien's grandmother answered and said Damien wasn't there. She finally got a hold of Damien around 9.20 PM. So there are holes in this alibi that could give them time to commit the crimes that were committed. Right.
01:03:38
Speaker
Other than Miss Kelly naming both Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin, Damien and Jason were best friends. They were always together. And you can see why I said they might have strategically tried them together because almost every piece of evidence against them is against Damien. But the two were, it's like, you know, they're a pair.
01:04:02
Speaker
Wherever you see Damien, you're going to see Jason. Multiple witnesses were brought in to always place Eccles and Baldwin together. They even had matching tattoos. Some of these witnesses alleged the word evil on their knuckles. Oh, OK. Yeah. Damien's girlfriend, Dominie, said that they gave the tattoos to themselves using ink and an exacto knife. Owie. Mm-hmm.
01:04:32
Speaker
Further, the red rayon fiber that I mentioned in the last episode found near the bodies was quote, microscopically similar to a red bathrobe found at Jason Baldwin's home. But most harmful for Baldwin, it seems, is that the prosecutors called on Michael Carson, a 16 year old who had gotten to know Baldwin in jail.
01:05:01
Speaker
He stated that Jason admitted to having, quote, dismembered the kids, end quote, and, quote, sucked the blood from the penis and screwed him and put the balls in his mouth, end quote. Oh, ma. Yeah. One of the witnesses for the prosecution, Dale Griffiths,
01:05:24
Speaker
testified on all the connections between the crime itself down to the day the crime was committed on, that it had links to satanic rituals. However, the defense proved that Griffiths had received his degree from an unaccredited university, calling his testimony into question.
01:05:43
Speaker
Despite the problematic nature of that testimony, the prosecution presented a case against Eccles and Baldwin that they felt was still strong. They argued that Eccles had information about the crime, so details about drowning, disparity among severity of injuries the police had not released.
01:06:04
Speaker
Add to that all of the overheard comments, the reported actions, the fact that during the trial, Eccles would do things like blow kisses to the parents of the murdered boy. And the outcome began to look pretty bleak for Eccles and Baldwin.
01:06:24
Speaker
Ultimately, Jason Baldwin was sentenced to life in prison. Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. was sentenced to life imprisonment plus two 20-year sentences. And Damien Eccles was sentenced to death. But soon, handcuffs just like the ones that were used to restrain them on their travel to prison were about to be opened.
01:06:53
Speaker
and the three would, nearly 18 years later, no longer young, teenaged boys, be walking the streets as three free grown men.
01:07:11
Speaker
Allison and I find it hard to record together these days with everything going on in our lives. That's why we began looking for a recording platform that would allow us to record the same quality, crisp audio that we could have in person.
Documentaries and Public Opinion
01:07:23
Speaker
Allison made it her mission to find the very best platform for doing just that, and that's when she discovered Zencaster.
01:07:29
Speaker
Zencaster is what Maggie and I use each week to record our episodes, and it is extremely easy to use, even if you've never used a recording platform before. You don't have to download a thing. I go to the website zencaster.com, create the session, for which you can record audio, video, or both,
01:07:47
Speaker
and then email Maggie the link. She clicks it and that's it. We're ready to hit the record button and start. Even when you have guests who aren't tech savvy, all they have to do is click the link to join the recording. Zencaster is an all-in-one podcast production suite that gives you studio quality audio and video without needing to have any technological background knowledge.
01:08:07
Speaker
Once you finish recording, the magic of Zencaster continues, as everything that you've created is securely backed up on the cloud, so no more lost files. You get a transcript generated from your recording, and you have quality material to work with in post-production. I honestly could not brag about Zencaster enough.
01:08:27
Speaker
If you're thinking about creating your own podcast, but worry because your co-hosts or someone you'd like to interview is in another city, worry no more. We want you to have the same easy experience as we do. If you go to zen.ai slash coffee and cases pod zero and enter promo code coffee and cases pod zero, all one word, you'll get 30% off your first three months. That's zen.ai slash coffee and cases pod zero. It's time to share and easily record your story.
01:08:59
Speaker
A couple of years after the conviction, HBO decided to do a documentary about the crimes. They claim that they went into the project thinking that they were only going to highlight the atrocities of the crime, but ended up using the film to reveal how the West Memphis Three, as Eccles, Baldwin, and Miss Kelly were later called to show how they may have been wrongfully convicted.
01:09:26
Speaker
The documentary, part two specifically, brought in experts who presented alternative theories and details that had not been fully explored during the investigation. One example came from a criminal profiler, Brent Turvey, who mentioned a detail from the photographs of the boys that hadn't been inspected by a board certified medical examiner until 1997.
01:09:55
Speaker
what looked like bite marks. These same marks were previously argued to have been injuries from turtles in the water that occurred postmortem. So in the documentary
01:10:11
Speaker
And in the trial, this theory was presented that what first seemed to be knife wounds to the boy's face, to their groin area, to their bodies, the state was trying to say, well, it looks like it could be knife marks and try to link it to a knife that Eccles had owned.
01:10:35
Speaker
The alternative theory was also presented that these wounds could have been caused by animals, specifically turtles, post-mortem. The same with this injury as well. Though Brent Turvey, this criminal profiler, said, it looks to me like it could be bite marks.
01:10:56
Speaker
Interesting. Turvy argued in the film that the marks could be human bite marks and it was only left on one of the boys. The documentary then showed that if they were bite marks, the teeth pattern didn't match Eccles, Baldwin, or Miss Kelly. Hmm.
01:11:23
Speaker
The documentary showed that the West Memphis three as individuals who in the documentary it kind of showed them as ones who wouldn't even look at the cameras in the courtroom because they were timid. Which seems weird because the one dude was blowing kisses at the parents. Well, that was the only one who wasn't necessarily shown as timid.
01:11:44
Speaker
in the documentary, but the documentary definitely presented the alternative theory that the three men, and this documentary was in three parts, that the three teens had been convicted, not because they were guilty, but merely because they didn't fit in. They wore black, they listened to Metallica, they read Stephen King, and they were interested in the Wiccan religion.
01:12:11
Speaker
After the documentaries were released, which seemed to show, hey, there's not really a whole lot proving beyond a reasonable doubt that these three men committed the crime, several celebrities took up the cause and fought for the release of the West Memphis Three. Those celebrities included Johnny Depp, Eddie Vedder, and the chicks, formerly the Dixie Chicks, Maine singer Natalie Maines,
01:12:41
Speaker
and director-producer Peter Jackson. The court of public opinion had dramatically shifted, as many who believed originally in their guilt were now touting their innocence. Then, in October 2003, Vicky Hutchinson, remember she's the one who decided to quote unquote play detective,
01:13:09
Speaker
who said that she went to the ESBOT with Damien Echols and Jessie
The Alford Plea and Release
01:13:13
Speaker
Miss Kelly Jr., recanted her statement saying that she had fabricated her whole story about Damien Echols because of police coercion. There's apparently been a lot of that happening in this case. Or at least a lot of accusations of it. Yeah.
01:13:33
Speaker
Despite many backing the alternative viewpoint presented in the films, there were some lingering problems with the documentary. Many of those involved in filming made statements about the questionable tactics that were used to get footage for the films. Christopher Byers adopted dad, John Mark Byers, for example, said that he was nearly always drunk during the filming of the scenes.
01:14:00
Speaker
He said of the directors, quote, I wasn't in my right mind. I tried to stay on medication and marijuana and they capitalized on that. They set me up to look like a fool, end quote. And whether we admit it or want to admit it or not, even films that are touted as documentaries have bias.
01:14:26
Speaker
Oh, yeah, because the people making them choose to show things or to leave things out. Exactly. And but the films were enough, though, to lead to massive groups of people now fighting to prove the innocence of the West Memphis three. But Maggie, if they didn't do it, then who did?
01:14:49
Speaker
Exactly. Let me remind you that this is such a highly controversial case that I don't even want Maggie to comment on her ultimate opinion as to guilt or innocence. So you can comment on like oh I understand that or ask questions but I do not want you to give your ultimate opinion.
01:15:11
Speaker
What I will do is present you with details that would seem to prove the guilt of the person that I'm bringing up, and I will play devil's advocate, and I will make arguments that would seem to show the innocence of each of these theories. All right, so Sleuthhounds, I want you to decide on your own who you think is guilty of this crime. So theory one is the West Memphis Three.
01:15:41
Speaker
There are still a decently sized group of people who believe that they are one or all of them guilty, not only because of details presented during the trial, those that I mentioned earlier that Gotham convicted, but also because of what happened after.
01:16:01
Speaker
In 2007, forensic evidence from the case revealed genetic material that could not be linked with Baldwin, Miss Kelly, nor Eccles. Now, you might be thinking, well, how would that prove their guilt, right? If there's evidence that shows that they're not linked to it.
01:16:23
Speaker
I'm about to tell you. So after this discovery, the defense team fought even harder, claiming their client's innocence and arguing the need for a new evidentiary hearing. Their requests were repeatedly denied. Finally, on November 4th, 2010, the Arkansas Supreme Court granted them a hearing to analyze the new evidence.
01:16:50
Speaker
So for those who are arguing for their innocence, this is great news. We are going to analyze more evidence looking for further DNA proof that the crime was not committed by the West Memphis Three. At the same time that new evidence emerged that could potentially allow them to prove their innocence and be exonerated, their own defense counsel proposed something.
01:17:18
Speaker
called the Alford plea to the Arkansas Supreme Court. This plea bargain entered on August 19th, 2011 allowed all three men to claim their innocence, but simultaneously acknowledge that the prosecutors had enough evidence to convict them for the murders.
01:17:46
Speaker
So an Alfred plea is when you say, okay, you might have enough evidence to prove my guilt, but I still say I'm innocent. What's the purpose of that? Well, it keeps the case closed from a legal perspective, but it allows Baldwin, Ms. Kelly and Eccles to be freed. As judge David Lasser sentenced them only to time already served, which was close to 18 years at that point.
01:18:16
Speaker
So those who believe that the West Memphis Three are guilty, they wonder why they would have taken the Alfred plea when they were potentially that close to proving their innocence. Those who believe that they're guilty, they wonder, okay, well, if the evidence would truly show that somebody else did it, then why take a plea? Then why even take it? Exactly. Yeah, that there's enough evidence against them to convict them again.
01:18:43
Speaker
And they also wonder why their defense only wanted the ligatures tested and not the clothing. So those who feel the courts got it right the first time, they point out the blue candle wax, the microscopic fibers. They point to all of the holes that could potentially be poked in alibis.
01:19:12
Speaker
They point to their behavior during trial. They point to the multiple confessions from Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. But despite the previous verdict, the HBO documentary Paradise Lost, regardless of any claims about its questionable tactics, was instrumental in changing public opinion about their guilt.
01:19:39
Speaker
The Moore family, Michael Moore's parents, actually attended an award show to speak out against the documentary being nominated for recognition. So this documentary actually was up for Academy Awards.
01:19:56
Speaker
Oh, here is what the Moore family stated. Quote, because of public pressure that exploded due to gross misrepresentations of facts in the two previous documentaries, Michael's killers were unjustly able to enter into a plea agreement, were released from prison, and now post additional threats to society.
01:20:23
Speaker
we implore the Academy not to reward our child's killers and the directors who have profited from one of the greatest frauds ever perpetrated under the guise of a documentary film." Despite the Moore's intense feelings about the film, most viewers, even those who have researched the case on their own, listen to interviews, read court documents, argue,
01:20:51
Speaker
that there was never enough evidence in this case to convict the three, Baldwin, Echols, and Miss Kelly, of the crimes. So now here's the devil's advocate. Those who maintain the innocence of the men known as the West Memphis Three direct our attention to the many alibis that have also changed, like Aaron Hutchison, or have been recanted, Vicki Hutchison and Jesse Miss Kelly Jr.
01:21:20
Speaker
They remind us that the thumbprint on the bank doesn't match any of the three. Additionally, plaster molds made from the footprints found at the scene also do not match any of the West Memphis three. If the mark on Stevie's forehead is indeed a bite mark, it doesn't match any of the three.
01:21:43
Speaker
In fact, the defense has argued that no DNA evidence from the scene could be tied to any of the three. They argue that any evidence, blue candle wax, the red fibers, the green fibers are circumstantial at best and can't beyond a reasonable doubt be linked with any of the three.
01:22:10
Speaker
Those who believe the West Memphis Three are innocent primarily believe that the fear of satanic activity coupled with the boy's interest in a certain type of music, interest on Eccles' part in the occult, and his penchant for wearing black clothing made the three the perfect scapegoats for the crime.
Ongoing Investigations and Suspects
01:22:29
Speaker
They add that there are other reasonable theories on perpetrators, at least enough to create doubt.
01:22:40
Speaker
and FBI profiler John E. Douglas hired by the defense argued that it was his belief that the crime had been committed by a single person and that the murders had been personal. To respond to the Alfred plea and the choice to take it, Jason Baldwin initially didn't want to take the Alfred plea.
01:23:06
Speaker
but he was told by his legal representation that it was an all or nothing. So if he didn't agree to take the Alfred plea that neither could miss Kelly nor Damien Eccles and Damien Eccles was currently on death row. So he's feeling like if I don't take this, it's my fault that Damien is dead. Hmm.
01:23:37
Speaker
While those who say they're guilty point out that it was their own defense lawyers who suggested and proposed the Alfred plea, not the prosecutors, Baldwin felt that this was the only way to be set free. And if he is truly innocent, he points out the irony that when he was proclaiming his innocence, they were put in prison. And that only by proclaiming that there's enough evidence to prove guilt that they're being set free.
01:24:05
Speaker
That is true. Pretty ironic right there. Yeah. Yeah. He said by telling the truth, they were punished, but by lying, they were rewarded. And on August 19th, 2011, Eccles, Baldwin and Miss Kelly were free. The three continue to maintain their innocence and argue for DNA testing. They actually asked for all the evidence from the case.
01:24:33
Speaker
so they could do for their DNA testing, but they had been told that it had been destroyed by a fire.
01:24:39
Speaker
However, as Lonnie Sorey, spokesperson for Echol's legal team, stated in a newspaper article for Action News 5 on December 21, 2021, quote, we were told the evidence had been destroyed by fire. And then lo and behold, we get to the West Memphis Police Department today and all the evidence is cataloged. Is there intact? Nothing was destroyed, end quote. So why would they lie about that? I don't know.
01:25:10
Speaker
Those who argue for the West Memphis three's innocence say, why would they continue to want more DNA testing done if they actually committed the crime? True. True. So that's theory one. Theory two, Bojangles man reexamined. Obviously this theory is a fairly strong one since the man was first seen shortly after the timeframe during which we think that the boys were murdered.
01:25:38
Speaker
He was covered in mud, as if he had been in the murky, muddy waters of the crime scene, and he was bloody. But because all the small scrapings taken from the restaurant were lost, there's no way of knowing if there is a connection. Devil's advocate, when looked at critically, however, the Bojangles man theory does have some flaws. First is that in a later statement, the manager recalls a cast
01:26:07
Speaker
on the man's arm. Oh, yeah. So how could he have killed anyone with a cast? Yep. And he could describe what the man was wearing, which means that the mud couldn't have been extremely thick or else the manager wouldn't have been able to tell like the color of his shoes. Right. Plus, like you said, if he had committed the murders alone, then that would mean he would have had to have caught and subdued three young boys effectively with only one arm.
01:26:38
Speaker
which would be very hard. Yes. Additionally, to have walked from the crime scene to Bojangles would have either meant he would have been seen leaving the area or at least some point along the path to the restaurant or that he couldn't have been at the crime scene to commit the crime and then to have made it to the restaurant by the time he was seen since he was walking on foot. I wonder how far away the Bojangles was from the crime scene.
01:27:09
Speaker
I believe it was a couple of miles away. Oh, so that's a pretty long walk. Right. Okay. Theory three, Morgan and Holland reexamined. Remember they're the ones who went to California right afterward. This theory is based on the confession by Morgan that maybe he quote blacked out and murdered the three boys.
01:27:37
Speaker
The defense had planned on calling him as a witness, attempting to basically show doubt that someone else might have committed this crime, right? Because remember, that's all you've got to prove is beyond, we have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And if I have somebody who's saying, well, maybe I blacked out and killed them, then that might be enough to create doubt.
01:28:01
Speaker
However, Morgan's attorney said that if Morgan were called on to testify, he would invoke the fifth amendment. Interesting. Even for the defense, they were fine with that because they said, you know, if we call on him and he pleads the fifth, then that would seem to indicate that he's hiding something. Maybe he's hiding his own involvement in the murders. Like if you refuse to take a polygraph test.
01:28:32
Speaker
Morgan's lawyer said that he would have pled the fifth because he was dealing with some pending federal drug charges and not because of involvement with the murders. So the judge ruled that he would not force Morgan to testify at the trial.
01:28:53
Speaker
So with this, we question, could Morgan's lawyer have been weaving a false narrative and the pleading of the fifth, maybe it was related to information he had about the murders? Remember, they did fail the polygraph when they were asked that question. But on the opposing side, even before making the maybe I killed them comment, remember he asked,
01:29:22
Speaker
Do you want me to lie? And then proceeded to make the incriminated comments. Theory four is Christopher Byers' adoptive father, John Mark Byers. This theory cropped up shortly after the Paradise Lost documentaries were released.
01:29:45
Speaker
The crux of this theory depends on the wound to the boys being caused by a knife rather than by turtles. Okay. If those wounds were caused by a knife, then the details I'm about to provide don't look the best for John Mark Byers.
01:30:07
Speaker
During the filming of the Paradise Lost documentary, buyers actually gifted a folding Kershaw brand hunting knife to one of the cameramen.
01:30:18
Speaker
Once the crew left West Memphis and headed back to New York, they saw what looked like blood on the knife and decided to send the knife to the West Memphis Police Department. And it was received by them on January 8th, 1994. So buyers first argued when they were like, why would there be blood on it? He said, I never used the knife. And he couldn't explain it.
01:30:46
Speaker
But when asked further, he said, well, maybe it was from cutting deer meat, but the blood was human. And it actually matched both Byers and his adoptive son, Christopher, because they both share the same genotype. Yeah, but as a kid, though, sometimes I would play like with my puppy's pocket knife and then accidentally cut myself and he didn't know that I had it. So maybe it was something like that.
01:31:15
Speaker
Well, and that's kind of the stories that they talked about. I mean, Byers said he didn't know how the blood got there. He said it could, maybe he accidentally cut his thumb on it. He said maybe he left the knife out and Christopher hurt himself on it, just like you said. But the gifting of the knife, it just happened to coincide with a police search of the Byers' home the day after the knife was gifted. So they're like, he's giving away
01:31:44
Speaker
Right, so of course the knife couldn't be found and couldn't be collected because it wasn't there. So could that be coincidence or was it strategic? Alternatively, Dr. Spitz in 2007 said that it was quote obvious that the injuries on the boys were not caused by a knife, but by animal claws. So that would seem to show
01:32:10
Speaker
that John Mark Byers is innocent, right? Here's this doctor who's saying, no, none of the scratches were caused by a knife. It was all caused by animals. A second argument for the John Mark Byers theory is linked to the potential bite mark on Stevie Branch's forehead. So remember that I said it was in 1997 that the bite mark was coming up again.
01:32:36
Speaker
Right. Yes. That they're they begin talking about it for those who are following the case. Also in 1997, John Mark Byers had all of his teeth pulled. So those who believe he's guilty argue that the timing is highly suspicious. However,
01:32:58
Speaker
As a logical reason, Byers said that he had a history of dental problems and that the medication he was taking was leading to periodontal disease. So he had had all of his teeth pulled for that reason. But despite those allegations against himself or maybe because of them, John Mark Byers argued for his own innocence in the crimes and he soon
01:33:25
Speaker
also became convinced that the West Memphis Three were innocent. As an alternative, he now supports the next theory. Theory five, Terry Hobbs. When some DNA testing was done on certain pieces of the evidence in 2007,
01:33:48
Speaker
A hair was found inside the knot on one of the shoestrings used to bind Michael Moore. That hair, based on testing, is, quote, not inconsistent with, end quote, Terry Hobbs.
01:34:07
Speaker
Okay, but if these kids were friends, they would have been in and out of that house a lot. I shed a lot so my hair gets wrapped around everything. So I don't think that necessarily points to guilt. Right. And that we will talk about that. So those who argue his guilt, they say, well, the only way his hair could be present inside of a tied knot would be if he were present at the scene.
01:34:32
Speaker
Oh, they've apparently never seen my clothes when they come out of the dryer because my hair is knotted on everything. Yeah. Um, they draw upon though, other small details to say Hobbs is guilty. They point out that he waited to call police to file a missing persons report. They say that Hobbs spent too long just hanging out at the Jacobi house before he went out looking for Stevie.
01:34:58
Speaker
They note that during the search, Hobbs told buyers and the officer, remember that he and Jacobi had already searched a specific area behind the Mayfair Apartments. And that place was extremely close to where the bodies were found. So people are like, Oh, did he say that? So it would take longer before the bodies were discovered.
01:35:19
Speaker
His wife at the time, Pam, her sister, Jo Lynn, actually made two further comments that seemed to incriminate Terry Hobbs. First, she said that she found a knife in the nightstand that belonged to Stevie and that Stevie had always had this knife with him. She questioned why now that knife would be found among Terry's things.
01:35:46
Speaker
Pam declared, quote, I had been shocked that the police didn't find it with Stevie when they found his body. I'd always assumed that my son's murderer had taken the knife during the crime. I could not believe it was in Terry's things. He had never told me that he had it, end quote.
01:36:08
Speaker
The second comment, also in Pam's declaration, was that her sister, JoLynn, had told her that she had seen Terry washing some clothes and bed linens and curtains from Stevie's room the night that the three boys went missing. That's a little odd. Next week you'll hear some answers to those accusations. Okay.
01:36:34
Speaker
Not only was a hair similar to Terry Hobbs found in one of the bindings, a hair was also found on a tree stump at the scene of the crime that was quote, not inconsistent with David Jacoby's hair, Terry's friend with whom he was searching. So many question could Terry Hobbs or the two of them together have been responsible?
01:37:03
Speaker
Seeming to corroborate this scenario, a report by WREG stated that witnesses Billy Wayne Stewart and Benny Guy had come forward in 2013.
01:37:15
Speaker
stating that Terry Hobbs, David Jacobi, and two local teens, LG Hollingsworth, remember him from the story of Londering, Damien and Dominie's clothing, and Buddy Lucas, the shoe guy. The shoe boy. Yep. That the four of them had bought pot and were smoking it when they caught the three boys spying on them.
01:37:39
Speaker
This witness said that Buddy Lucas later told him that he was part of their murders when he saw Hobbs and Jacoby commit the murders. And he told that story to Stewart. So the same kid that was crying saying, um, you know, he gave me these shoes because he doesn't want them anymore. And he was really upset, could have potentially been involved in the murders. Right.
01:38:07
Speaker
Further supporting this theory is the documentary West of Memphis, which was produced by Peter Jackson and Damien Eccles.
01:38:17
Speaker
It focuses on Terry Hobbs as the murderer. And I will say, when looking through Facebook posts myself about this case, 90% of the posts were from people placing the blame solely on Terry Hobbs' shoulders. Many bring up as signs of guilt, the reasons that I've just mentioned, as well as an incident of domestic abuse to show that Hobbs, who was searching
01:38:45
Speaker
alone for some time that evening for Stevie before going to pick Pam up from the restaurant would have had the opportunity to commit the murders and then act like he had been searching for Stevie the whole time.
01:38:59
Speaker
those who argue Hobbes' innocence, so here's my devil's advocate, point out that the hair that is, quote, not inconsistent with Terry Hobbes also fits with one and a half percent of the population. And to put that into perspective, that's roughly 4.5 million Americans. Oh, so like anybody walking by, basically. Yeah.
01:39:23
Speaker
And if we are looking at the situation logically, even if it is his hair in the knot, like you said Maggie, it could be there by secondary transfer. Both Michael and Christopher were at the Hobbs house just that afternoon.
01:39:45
Speaker
So the hair could have gotten on the lace and was then present when the true perpetrator tied the knots. And all of that is if the lace isn't Stevie's own shoelace, because remember their own laces weren't used to tie them up.
01:40:03
Speaker
Right. So the right, it was random. Exactly. So I do know that one pair of black shoes belong to Christopher Byers. So I don't know whether it was Stevie or Michael who had the white shoes on, but the hair was found on a white shoelace. So if that were Stevie's shoelace, then it makes even more sense why Hobbs's hair might be there, even if he's not the perpetrator.
01:40:27
Speaker
As for the other arguments, as we discussed last week, Hobbs has stated that when he asked Dana Moore to call the, like when Dana Moore said she was calling the police to file a missing persons report for Michael, remember Hobbs said, Oh, let them know that Stevie also hasn't come home.
01:40:46
Speaker
Right, so maybe he felt the report had already been made. Right, exactly. And when he went by the Jacobis, it was earlier in the day, so not long after dropping Pam off at work, and he might not have been as worried yet.
01:41:04
Speaker
In terms of telling buyers and the officer that he and Jacobi had already searched the particular area behind the Mayfair Apartments, let me also remind you that officers, even the next day in the daylight, walked shoulder to shoulder searching the area and were just about to cross the area off of the list when the black shoe was spotted. And the family were searching in the evening
01:41:30
Speaker
Right the night before when it was dark or already getting dark and even in the daylight the officers almost missed any clues. Right so that could have been a legitimate statement like oh we've already searched there we didn't find anything yeah. The knife and the washing of the clothes.
01:41:48
Speaker
is coming from Pam and her family. And I have no insight to know whether the sister is being deceptive or telling the truth, right? I have no idea, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate. So what I will say is that we do have to at least keep in mind that at this point when these statements were being made, Terry and Pam were no longer married. So could there have been some animosity?
01:42:18
Speaker
Right? After all, there's no evidence other than Pam's sister, JoLynn's statement about what she quote unquote found. Like she said she saw him washing clothes. Right. Terry Hobbs says she wasn't even there that night. So how would she have seen anything? So how would she know? Exactly.
01:42:42
Speaker
to play devil's advocate if all of these arguments were true and proven, then why hasn't Terry Hobbs ever been named a suspect or even a person of interest in the case? That's a good point. Then again, it could have been committed by someone flying far below the radar, somebody not even interviewed, someone else from West Memphis, somebody from the Blue Beacon truck stop, somebody from the Mayfair Apartments.
01:43:11
Speaker
Sadly, any of those must be seen as possibilities. But like all of the theories, from the West Memphis Three to John Mark Byers to Terry Hobbs, all of the quote unquote evidence is circumstantial at best.
Truth, Evidence, and Legal Battles
01:43:30
Speaker
While Maggie and I will not give our opinions like we normally do, I will say that many of the same individuals who are arguing that the conviction of the West Memphis Three was based on shaky evidence and that it became a quote unquote witch hunt are often guilty of doing the same to those at the center of some of the alternative theories.
01:43:53
Speaker
We cannot convict someone based upon assumptions, based upon prejudices, based upon a gut feeling. We must instead root our judgment in the truth and in the preponderance of evidence. If a judge allows for the stored evidence to all be tested, only then may answers be revealed.
01:44:17
Speaker
Defense Attorney Patrick Benka is currently fighting for more evidence to be tested from the case, though his particular focus has been on testing the ligatures themselves. They are wanting to use a process called MVAC, which is known to use something like a vacuum to extract DNA from fabric and other items.
01:44:39
Speaker
Those against the new testing argue that such a test will destroy the evidence in the process. So they'll let a judge decide. That hearing is set for two weeks from today, on Thursday, June 23rd at the Crittenden County District Court. As the date nears, those responsible have to be getting nervous. Right now,
01:45:06
Speaker
The court of public opinion has its finger pointed steadily at one individual in particular, no matter how much or how often he maintains his innocence. Terry Hobbs. What does he think about the hair evidence? How does he feel about the blame being placed on him? Who does he say is guilty of the murders? And does he want the evidence tested?
01:45:36
Speaker
Hear all of that and more in my uncut interview with Terry Hobbs, next time on Coffee and Cases.
01:46:06
Speaker
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