Transcript
Speaker: Sleuth Hounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own. Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are.
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Speaker: As I've gotten older, I've come to appreciate winter time. As a child, I always was so sad to see summer end and winter approach. The thought of having to stay inside was nearly unbearable to me. But the older I've gotten, the more I look forward to winter. Not only do bugs go back into hiding during that time and everything I'm allergic to dies, but winter comes with so many beautiful things. And two of my favorite things are Christmas and snow. Something magical happens every time it snows.
Speaker: The world turns quiet and time slows down. As the snow lays, the world just stops and watches. Snow has the ability to turn the ordinary into the extraordinary. But nothing beats Christmas. The anticipation and excitement in the weeks that lead up to this holiday have been feelings that have followed me my entire life.
Speaker: Christmas has never been about receiving gifts for me. It's always been about the sense of giving, love, and grace. Tom Barker said, some Christmas tree ornaments do a lot more than glitter and glow. They represent a gift of love given a long time ago. And how true is that? As Anthony and I unwrap our Christmas ornaments every year, I'm taken back to so many special trips we had together. I remember picking out our ornament for our first tree on our honeymoon to Disney World.
Speaker: It lets me remember our many trips to Mammoth Cave in Washington DC, but most of all of the family members we remember as we hang up ornaments. I have a special green pickle ornament my aunt got me when I was really little that hangs at the very top of the Christmas tree where all the special ornaments hang.
Speaker: and every year I have to place it there. Every year it reminds me of her sweet smile, her love for books, and her giving heart. Anthony has a bear that he painted with his mom that reminds him of simpler times and always brings some amusing stories up when we hang that ornament on the tree.
Speaker: My mom bought me a snowflake ornament that played Christmas carols when you pushed a button on the back. I carried that ornament year round for many years of my toddler life. Even now that the batteries died, I can still hear those carols play when I hang the snowflake on my tree. But just as many happy memories fill my heart as we hang ornaments on the tree each year, my heart also breaks just a little. I love my pickle ornament and the ornaments that were our grandparents, but it makes me sad that my aunt and some of our grandparents aren't here to celebrate Christmas with us.
Speaker: It makes me sad to hang the ornament on our tree that we got for each of our animals because some of them have passed over the rainbow bridge. We got a memorial ornament for the baby we lost and I cry every time I hang it up thinking of all the things that could have been. Through the joy of Christmas and the peace of snow there are also times of heartbreak that shine through.
Speaker: As snow covers the ground, it can also cover clues or in some cases bodies for days and weeks at a time. And while most families are still celebrating Christmas, some families are wondering where their family members could be. As the snow falls, it brings more questions to mind like when or if the people they love may return home.
Speaker: And as they're packing up their Christmas tree, there are no smiles that accompany the ornaments that they remove. Only tears as they think of their daughters lost in the cold and the snow. This is the story of the Grimes sisters.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families.
Speaker: With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases Podcast, and to follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases Podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases Podcast. Because as these families know, conversation helps to keep their missing family member and the public consciousness helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Speaker: Entirely by accident, Allison, this week's case is somewhat similar to the last case that we did because it took place in the 50s. And last week, we talked about our love for Christmas. Yes, and of Christmas carols. Yeah. And this story takes place just a couple days before Christmas. So unintentionally, there's sort of a connection between this episode and The Boy in the Box.
Speaker: Oh, okay. So back in the Elvis days. Yeah. And he plays a big role in this story as well. Well, look at that. So I feel like in today's world, we're almost as bad as it sounds like immune to hearing or seeing missing children on TV or, you know, podcasts or radios. Like it's like almost a weekly thing on the nightly news.
Speaker: and we watch like entire fictional TV shows. Considering the fact that I'm a member of like 60 different true crime groups, my Facebook feed is inundated with missing people.
Speaker: Right. And I feel like, yeah, like you said, it's just, you know, we watch TV shows about people that have gone missing, both fictional and non -fictional. We listen to it on podcasts. We watch it on the news. Like, I just feel like it's so much a part of our culture, but it wasn't like that in 1956.
Speaker: Serial killers, missing children, murders weren't something that was talked about or heard of every day. So when two young girls ages 15 and 12 went missing on December 28th of 1956 after seeing the Elvis Presley movie, Love Me Tender, no fewer than 11 times. Oh my gosh. Chicago. So they were in love.
Speaker: They had the Elvis fever. I don't know what that what it was called if it was called the Elvis fever, but I'm imagining that that's what it was called. I feel like it probably was and they really did have like they were in love with him. They were even members of the Elvis Presley fan club. Do you remember back in the days? Oh my gosh, I would buy like Teen Bop.
Speaker: in the grocery store and I would write to the fan clubs. Like it would have like fan club addresses and I would write letters. Well, true story. Okay. So basically when I was telling Anthony about this story, he laughed and said that my mom was president of the Elvis Presley fan club because she's obsessed with Elvis. But true story. So my cousins and I,
Speaker: Love the Backstreet Boys. I'm sure you all know this. And we joined the Backstreet Boys Fan Club because their fans get first dibs on tickets. And that's how we got our front row tickets the last time we saw them. Oh my goodness. So the perks of fan club membership.
Speaker: And listen, if we ever get a famous musician to listen to our podcast, they need to bring back the fan clubs. Yes. I'm serious. And the posters and the team bought magazine. Maybe then our students would actually learn how to capitalize their I pronouns. Maybe that's who they pick who gets in the front row.
Speaker: who uses correct punctuation capitalization. Listen, help us out. So the girls in our story today, Barbara was 15 and Patricia was 12. They were actually sisters, but not like sisters that we think or that at least I think about like, I always picture sisters at that age as like arguing and basically hating each other. And they were more like best friends than they were sisters.
Speaker: Oh, that's sweet. Yeah, they were actually described in a lot of articles as inseparable, mainly because they had the love for Elvis Presley. So that kind of united them and sisterly love. And like I said, Barbara and Patricia loved Elvis, who was aged 21 in 1956, because I had to Google it because I was trying to figure out how old he was when my mother would have been a fan. So wait, so he wasn't that much older than Barbara.
Speaker: Right. Like six years older. Yeah. So it's not weird. It's fine. So she probably thought it was attainable. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: But because they loved him so much by December 28th They had seen the movie love me tender nine times and on that day the two decided it just nine times just wasn't enough and They had to see the double feature playing at the Brighton Park movie theater. Oh My gosh, so they had to say they had to make it 11. Yeah, lucky 11
Speaker: So they take their $2 .50 in their pocket. They leave the house around 7 .30 p .m. and go about one and a half miles from their home in McKinley Park to the movie theater. And they like promised their mom they would be home before midnight, before they leave.
Speaker: and like we don't know if they walked or if they rode the bus there but we do know that they arrived to the movie theater excited to see Love Me Tender which I read obviously I've never seen Love Me Tender because I haven't either I'm not well I don't think I've watched any Elvis movies
Speaker: But I read he dies in Love Me Tender. I could be wrong. So I can only imagine all these people that are obsessed with him and then he dies at the end of this movie. It has to be heartbreaking. Yeah, I would probably cry and I'm sure they did.
Speaker: so like we like i said we know barbara and patricia arrive at the movie theater we have several reliable sources and eyewitnesses that later recalled to police seeing both of them alive and happy at the movies well no can i ask a question yeah is this one of those like
Speaker: Could they be remembering it from one of the other nine times that they saw them at the movie or because this was like this double feature was like in the park, maybe it was a new place. And so we do know that they were there. Well, I think just some of the accounts were so specific that okay. Like they know that they, yeah.
Speaker: because they actually had a friend named Dorothy that would inform investigators later on that she was in the row behind Barbara and Patricia with her own little sister watching the movie. And she says that they left at intermission of this double feature around like nine 30. And she saw the Grimes sisters waiting in line to purchase the most delicious movie theater snack popcorn. Oh, a hundred percent.
Speaker: Alison brings her own popcorn to movies. There's her little rebel thing. I know, that's about the only rule breaking I do. And I have learned, I've mastered it. It tastes just like the movie theater and doesn't cost me no $20.
Speaker: I'm gonna need you to tell me how to do that because we bought a popcorn maker and Like I just can't get it down Yeah, you need to I'll show you what you need So Dorothy says the girls are in good spirits as she walks out of the movie theater and Like you know, they're in line to get their popcorn and everything is good with the world Okay
Speaker: So obviously the Grimes sisters do stay for the second showing. Like they had, you know, they had even put like 50 cents and like a zipper compartment of Barbara's wallet so that they could purchase the ticket for the second showing and not accidentally spend it at the snack counter. Right. Which understandable as well. Right. Everything. Like you said, everything's expensive. It's $10 for a pop. So yeah. Um, but staying for the second showing, a love me tender,
Speaker: meant that his sisters should have arrived home around like 11 45. So about 15 minutes before their midnight curfew. But the girls don't show up at midnight.
Speaker: And their mom Loretta is like, you know, I'm not gonna overreact. I'm sure they probably just were, you know, chatting with friends and they missed the bus and they'll get on the next one home. So she's like being rational. She sends their older sister Teresa and their older brother Joey to the bus stop that was near their house to wait to see if like the girls get off. So again, she's just trying to stay calm.
Speaker: But while they're there, three buses stop at the bus stop, and Barbara and Patricia got off neither of those buses. And so by this point, the siblings are like, okay, they're obviously not on the bus, like we're going home, I'm not waiting here all night, bye. Right, yeah, because if they missed the first one, they would have gotten on the second one. If they missed that one, then
Speaker: Yeah. Then I feel like any older sibling is going to be like, yeah, I'm not waiting here on you all night. Like I have a life I'm leaving. Like you can walk home. So in the meantime, Loretta actually called some of the friends of the girls just to say, like, see, did they ride home with someone? You know, something like that.
Speaker: but no one has seen them since leaving the movie theater and they didn't come home on the bus. So in the early morning of December 29th around 2 .15 AM, Loretta called the Chicago Police Department to file a missing persons report on Barbara and Patricia Grimes. Gosh.
Speaker: Yeah, because Shirley, one of the friends, I wish I knew what Dorothy saw after the second showing. Did she see them leave? Did they leave after the first one? So we do have a possible timeline that we're going to talk about here in just a little bit that may answer that question. OK.
Speaker: So as I kind of alluded to earlier in the episode, nothing like this had really happened in the Grimes sisters area before. So the town was like almost brought to its knees when news of the missing teens spread. Because a case like this was so unheard of though, many theorized, of course, the first thing that they're gonna go to is that the girls ran away. Yeah, and it's so frustrating. I know, even back then, apparently,
Speaker: Yeah, and despite the girls like parents denying this theory, stating there's no way that the two of them would have just like up and ran away. The police do not pursue any leads in or many leads, I should say, in the Grimes sisters case until about one week had passed since they were last seen or heard from. And we know the first 48 hours are golden.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's long since gone. Yeah, and I feel like especially when technology was so limited there were no like surveillance footage from the movie theater parking lot that they could go back and look at like they're relying on eyewitness accounts and you can forget a lot of things in a week. I forget a lot of things like 15 minutes. So that's what I was getting ready to say like
Speaker: I'm telling you, I could be like, we need to go into the, what's the word? The kitchen. Yep, that would be the word. That's what my brain is right now. So yeah, a week ago. Yeah, Anthony told me that I need to make remembering things my New Year's resolution.
Speaker: Like he told me that literally yesterday. He was like, that needs to be your New Year's resolution is to have a better memory. I was like, okay. That's so funny. So, and I know this is frowned upon, but actually most of the sources in Wikipedia were really great sources. They were like, um, books that have been written and things like that. So I actually referenced a lot of.
Speaker: Like we tell our kids, Wikipedia can be a jumping point. You can look there for the sources that they used and then you need to use the sources they talk about. Yeah, that's what I was telling my kids too. Which is what I did because they had a lot of sources that I was unable to find like online until I used like the hyperlinks that they had.
Speaker: And one of the sources that they cited said that the disappearance of the Grimes sisters sparked one of the largest missing persons cases in the history of Cook County, so the county that the girls were from.
Speaker: which is Chicago, right? So that's - Yes. All right. So anyways, a citywide search is initiated for the girls. Hundreds of police officers are assigned full time to like searching for the Grimes sisters. Which I feel like, okay, it wasn't quick.
Speaker: But once they got on the train, it kind of moved quickly. Yeah, once they get mobilized, I feel like that's quite a few officers looking. Yeah, and I've read that police conducted door -to -door canvassing throughout Brighton Park. They looked through canals and rivers. They passed out 15 ,000 flyers to local homes. Some churches in town offered a $1 ,000 reward for information leading to the whereabouts of the girls.
Speaker: Which if $2 .50 gets you a double header and popcorn, $1 ,000 was a lot. Exactly. Yeah. And what's crazy to me is the next thing that I read was that 300 ,000 people
Speaker: This was according to this site, this source in Wikipedia were questioned about this case with 2 ,000 individuals subjected to serious interrogations pertaining to potential involvement. Geez.
Speaker: part of me doesn't know, like, well, part of me doesn't know, like, is that impressive for police efforts? Or does that mean they really just have no idea, like, where to start? So they're questioning everyone and their mother, literally. I kind of get that impression, because I was thinking, like, how many people are at this doubleheader of Elvis? I mean, obviously, he was super popular, so probably a lot. Plus, any potential people who were on buses. Yeah.
Speaker: And it doesn't help, which we'll talk about here in a little bit. There are like so many like apparent sightings of these two that it's like a little ridiculous. So maybe that was also some of it. Yeah.
Speaker: But despite police efforts and extensive media involvement, little to no headway is made in the Grimes sisters disappearance. Several people would tell police that the sisters got into a mercury modeled car with a young man who looked very much like Elvis Presley.
Speaker: But nothing like really concrete kind of happens. And I actually read in several sources that like Elvis himself got word of these two devoted fans who were missing and he made a public plea for them to come home. Oh yeah.
Speaker: If he really did that, then I really like that. And that was in several things that I read, like I'm talking like A &E history channel, like verified sources. So I'm assuming that that actually happened. I could totally see them getting into a car with a boy who looked like Elvis though.
Speaker: Oh yeah, I mean, if I was 12, okay, I'm picturing me at 12. And somebody that looked like Brian Littrell or Nick Carter from the Backstreet Boys rolled up in a car after I've watched the BSB movie at the local Pikeville movie theater, the Riverville 10 Cinema. I probably would have been like, I'm getting in the car with Nick Carter. Fan -girling hard. We're getting married like I always thought we were going to.
Speaker: He loves me. I always knew he loved me. So, I mean, I could see that as like a 12 year old getting in a car with their lookalikes. I could see. But like I said, there are so many apparent sightings of the girls over the next several days to police. And I believe that it's like these quote unquote sightings that made police initially buy into the runaway theory.
Speaker: Because most of them just seem like kind of everyday things that people would do. None of them, or not many of them were like, I saw them in distress pushing away a strange man, crying, yelling for help. It's like I saw them walking down the street on Archer Avenue, like just normal everyday things.
Speaker: So there were several unconfirmed sightings of the sisters boarding a Chicago Transit Authority bus on Archer Avenue like heading east into the city after the movie. One of the people who apparently saw the sisters on this bus included the bus driver himself.
Speaker: Oh, and according to several articles I read it appears the girls may have boarded the bus at West Avenue or Western Avenue at approximately like 1105 p .m. So that makes me think like
Speaker: they may have left the movie a little early or like literally right when it ended. Cause I know like it probably doesn't take a while. Yeah. And like if you're on public transportation and it probably has a lot of stops. So it may take a while to get to like your bus stop. So maybe them arriving at 11 45 and the movie ending at 11 makes sense. But I'm not really sure about like, you know, the time it would take to get from the bus to their house. Okay.
Speaker: What's crazy is I read that this stop was just about halfway between the girls' home and the movie theater. But according to the History Channel, nobody ever saw the sisters get off the bus at any of its stops. So this is why we say that it's unconfirmed soddings because we can't say definitively. Yeah, you can't vanish into thin air. Right. Like you have to get off the bus at some point. But it could just be maybe a lot of people got off the bus at one time and they just were kind of lost in the crowd.
Speaker: Yeah. Would their stop have been a popular stop? Or was theirs just like residential neighborhood? So that I didn't look at to see if they live just like kind of in like a residential area. But I'm assuming if it was a possibility that they walked to the movie theater that it couldn't have been like too residential. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, because I was thinking, if there were a lot of people who got off, then maybe they did get off at their stop. They just didn't make it home from there. Right. And that could be a possibility. Because I'm assuming it's not from your house to go to the movie Tavern. It's not that far. Oh my gosh. I couldn't walk. I mean, you could walk that, but it would be like, you would arrive the next day. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: You'd have to leave today for tomorrow's six o 'clock showing. Yeah, I'll just kidnap one of the horses next door. I'll ride it there. Yeah. Bear back. That's all right. All right.
Speaker: We do have a man named Roger Menard that would later inform investigators that he attended the same December 28th showing of Love Me Tender and that he also sat behind Barbara and Patricia Grimes, like close to where Dorothy, so the first girl was with her sister. And Roger said he left the movie theater about one minute before the sisters. So that's why it makes me believe that they did stay for the entire second showing.
Speaker: it would be weird that multiple people would leave early. Yeah. He reported a late model Buick stopping alongside the girls and he says the girls like hesitated for a second but then kept on walking.
Speaker: And he says again that just past 42nd Street, a black mercury occupied by two teenage boys pulled alongside the girls. He says this time they kind of stop. They're talking to the people in the car. They're giggling, but they still keep walking toward home. Didn't the other person report a mercury?
Speaker: Yeah, so there are actually several people that reported seeing a mercury there because remember that's with the like Elvis look alike was driving, right? And so he Roger is also saying that he was behind the girls walking home and definitely saw them stop and speak to somebody in a mercury. Hmm.
Speaker: Also, two teenage boys named Ed and Earl, which like put good names for friends, Ed and Earl, informed investigators that while they were driving through McKinley Park at about 1130 on the 28th, they see the sisters on 35th Street and they report to police officers that like,
Speaker: the girls seem fine. Like they're like jumping out of doorways at one another and just like giggling. They don't seem scared or anxious. Like everything is just fine. Uh, you know why I don't believe this? Why? Because they have a curfew and I feel like at 11 30 that's getting pretty close to their curfew.
Speaker: and if their parents were anything like mine I'd be nervous about not getting back in time and so I'm not sure about this whole like basically wasting time. Right but remember their house is only like a mile and a half away from the movie theater so it's not like
Speaker: they have a huge amount of time or like a huge distance walking a short amount of time. They had almost like an hour after the movie. I guess I'm gauging walking speed based on my own, which is beep. That would be pretty slow. So later on,
Speaker: a security guard named Jack Franklin would tell investigators that like in the early morning of the 29th, he about like 12 hours since the girl supposedly left the movie theater, that he would offer directions to two girls who match descriptions of the Grimes sister. And like he says, so I don't remember which story or case this was, but I always think about this. The dude that had the like ferret on his shoulder, who was that?
Speaker: That was Pamela Ray. Yeah, I always think about this case because we talked about how that's so almost unforgettable. And he says the only reason that he even is because they were both extremely rude to him.
Speaker: like in this exchange. So he says they look lost. He tries to give them directions and they're really rude and that kind of makes him remember this encounter with them.
Speaker: On the same date of Jack's alleged sighting of Barbara and Patricia, a friend of Barbara's named Judy reported that she'd seen the sisters at about 2 .30 PM walking westward on Archer Avenue. So again, like these are all like a soddings that they're just doing normal things like asking for directions, walking on Archer Avenue, like nothing super bizarre. Yeah, but that's almost what makes it so odd.
Speaker: Right, because it's so normal. Yeah. Yeah. Another sighting as a restaurant worker reported seeing the girls on the early morning of the 30th. So this is like two days missing at this point. He said that they were in the company of a man and that one of the girls acted maybe sickly or drunk, but they needed assistance walking.
Speaker: So this is on the 30th. A hotel clerk also stated that the girls briefly stayed at his hotel. There was another hotel that claimed that they refused service to the girls, like refused to give them a room because they were so young. Then several days later, employees of a department store. I'm not seeing these girls doing anything like this. Yeah, I agree. I think a lot of
Speaker: These are kind of like what we talked about in some other episodes. Maybe they look familiar or they have familiar characteristics. They look like enough people that they're kind of mistaken for other people. Several days later, employees of a department store would go on to report seeing the Grimes sisters in their store listening to Elvis Presley records, which sounds like them, but again, sounds like probably every teen in 1956. That's true.
Speaker: not anything outstanding. Most mysteriously though, about two weeks after the girls disappeared, a classmate of Patricia's claims that she received two puzzling phone calls near midnight. She says during the first phone call, the party on the other line was just silent, which creeps me out.
Speaker: She says during the next phone call, a voice that she was sure was Patricia said, is that you, Sandra? Is Sandra there? Then the caller just hung up. What? Yeah. That is bizarre. So weird. But again, like,
Speaker: I think people's voices on phones sound different and I'm mistaken for a kid all the time when I answer my work phone at school. They'll be like, is Ms. Tamron in the room? I am Ms. Tamron. Thank you, though. I'll help you. Maybe it's just that kind of instance that they kind of sound the same.
Speaker: The fate of the Grimes sisters would become known soon enough, though, Allison. And sadly, it's not what anyone in the town wanted to hear. On January 22nd, 1957, following a thaw in the recent snow, nearly one month after the sisters were last seen alive, they were found in a ravine off County Line Road and Willow Springs by a construction worker. Yeah, so this construction worker
Speaker: Leonard, why was that so hard for me to say Prescott? Like says that he's like driving by and
Speaker: that he sees like these things that are flesh colored. He actually says, quote, these flesh colored things like behind a guardrail. So he's initially like, all right, these must just be mannequins. And so for some reason, this makes no sense to me. He decides he needs to go home to get his wife to like,
Speaker: make sure these are mannequins by the road. Maybe, I guess he just didn't want to go by himself, which I guess I can understand. Can I pause here too? I totally get that. I wouldn't want to go by myself, but people always assume it's mannequins. How many times have you ever seen a mannequin outside of a store? Because I never have. Not once. How many of these stories has it turned out to be a mannequin? Never. Zero.
Speaker: So yeah, if you think it's a mannequin, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. If you think it's a mannequin, it's a dead body. So there's that. Yeah. So he does bring his wife back and they do not find mannequins. They find the naked bodies of Barbara and Patricia Grimes. And it looks to them that they have either been just like dumped there or literally like thrown by a passing car. Oh.
Speaker: And the bodies, not really the position of the bodies, but like…
Speaker: the condition of the bodies are kind of peculiar. So what makes them think that they were just sort of tossed from the car is that they're on like this kind of like flat section, like right behind the guardrail. And it's just about like 10 feet before you get to this, like the bank of a creek, right? Okay. And they say that Barbara is like,
Speaker: Laying on her left side with her legs kind of drawn up towards her torso almost like she's in the fetal position So not some way that you would like I mean if not some way that I would imagine a murderer would lay a body if they're really laying them out and
Speaker: Patricia was on her back with her body covering her sister's head, and her head was at a sharp, right angle. Again, not indicative that they were just placed there, but more cost. Right.
Speaker: So it's believed that the sisters had most likely been driven to this location in a car and then their bodies were dragged or thrown out of the vehicle and placed behind the guardrail. So three wounds, and this is just like
Speaker: turns my stomach resembling like those typically inflicted by ice picks were discovered on Barbara's chest and injuries like resembling blunt force trauma were visible on her face and head.
Speaker: Oh my god. But they're saying a lot of investigators say that that could have just been a result of how the bodies were placed where they were placed. Maybe not necessarily like how they died. Oh.
Speaker: There were also numerous injuries resembling bruises along Patricia's face and body. And I read that they actually, which I thought this was weird, but I read, um, that the girl's father, Joseph was actually driven to the crime scene to identify the bodies, not to like the lab or more. Yeah. Oh, which I thought was kind of weird. That is.
Speaker: So he does identify them as Patricia and Barbara and immediately police change gears from like the missing persons train to they're now looking for a suspect in the murders of the Grimes sisters. Yeah. What complicates things is the autopsy pathologist and the chief investigator of the coroner's office
Speaker: are unable to agree upon a time of death and a cause of death. So it makes it difficult to kind of begin an investigation looking for a suspect, not knowing when or how they died. Yeah. So the autopsy report says that there were no obvious fatal wounds discovered on the girl's body. So I'm assuming the ice pick things were not very deep. Okay.
Speaker: neither had been drunk, neither had any drugs in their system. Um, and even though there were no clothing belonging to the girls at the scene of the crime and those clothes have never been found, the bodies were described to be as quote unquote markedly clean on the autopsy report. Hmm. So obviously clothes are out there somewhere. Yeah. So somewhere somebody has some evidence or they did at one point. Hmm.
Speaker: I did read that there were like swords and cuts on the girls, but some people said that that was like rodents. Like they had been lying there for a while and rodents had done that. But we're going to talk about some other possible theories like regarding that. Okay.
Speaker: So strangely, Allison, the autopsy would report that Barbara, so the oldest of the two, the 15 year old, had engaged in sexual intercourse. And the autopsy report said either consensually or unconsensually, like that's literally the only two ways you can have sex, but okay. And I feel like you should be able to tell which way it was. Yeah, I would think so too.
Speaker: They say that she had sexual intercourse around the time of her death. The official cause of death that I read was murder. And then it also listed secondary shock. So like, I guess frigid temperature. Yeah. So I took that as like, maybe they had wounds that prevented them from like leaving and kind of died from hypothermia. That's how I think that's right.
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker: I cited in an article from the Victorian advocate called Two Chicago Girls Found Cruelist Lane. One of the people that performed the autopsy, Walter McCarron, said that the scissors bodies had Lane were like undiscovered behind this guard rail for many days before their eventual discovery. So he says that the bodies are preserved so well because there have been frigid temperatures in the weeks prior to January the 22nd.
Speaker: And there had been like a lot of snowfall at that time. So he's saying that's kind of what preserved their bodies. He concluded that the girls were there for more than three weeks.
Speaker: Oh gosh. Because they're missing like you know right around a month and he says they were there for about three weeks because the snow started falling around January the 9th and because it melted that's how they the girls were discovered so he's saying that they had to be there when the snow started falling so they should have been there a few weeks. But I still feel like
Speaker: I don't know if they could have been there initially too, because then there's still like a week there, you know, a little over a week before the snow starts coming. Yeah. And that's a point that a lot of people bring up and there is one Cook County coroner officer, Harry gloss that completely disagrees with like the official time of death and
Speaker: like cause of death. So he stated to the media that there were numerous marks of violence on the girl's faces. So he's saying that this was not like a rodent problem, like a post -mortem rodent problem. This was like signs of like abuse. Yeah.
Speaker: Violence so gloss. Yeah violence gloss says that he believes the girls were alive until at least January the 7th Mm -hmm. So since this is that's the only day he says that would Like make sense because of like the snowfall that we've talked about and he says that they're
Speaker: had to have been like a sufficient snowfall to react with a girl's natural body heats in the climate because there was a layer of ice discovered on their bodies when they were like first discovered by police. So it melted and then froze on them as their body temperatures cooled.
Speaker: Right. So he's saying that their bodies had to be warm when they were placed there. And since only after January 7th had there been sufficient snow to create this layer of ice on the bodies. I'm with gloss. I agree. Yeah. His theories to me make a lot of sense. So like in addition to that, he states that both girls were subject to sexual assault during their period of captivity. So he's saying that the
Speaker: Sexual intercourse with Barbara was not consensual that it was assault and he adds that the autopsy conducted on Patricia Notes that there was semen discovered within her vaginal fluid that was swabbed from her body Mm -hmm. He also does it the first time Well, I mean, I know we have two conflicting accounts I'm and I'm automatically believing this guy because I believe his other part of his theory but I
Speaker: So a lot of people say, and I'll talk about it like here in a little bit, but a lot of people say that
Speaker: Like again, like this is a different time period. So like I think of like lamb to the slaughter, right? Like your kind of women are viewed like as somebody that needs protected and like, you know, they're fragile and stuff like that. So a lot of people said that a lot of the facts of the case were kind of misconstrued to sort of protect the honor of Barbara and Patricia and in turn their mom Loretta.
Speaker: Mm -hmm Which actually does the opposite because it hurts the investigation by not getting the details out in my opinion, right? exactly So he like I said says they're both sexually assaulted. He also goes on to say that milk was found in Barbara's stomach curdled milk and there was no evidence that she drunk milk at home and
Speaker: like the day they disappeared or at the cinema because what movie theater is like? Get you a glass of ice cold milk with your milk duds and popcorn. Coca -Cola. Yeah, Coca -Cola. So they think that she's had to consume food from the time she left the movie theater to when they're found.
Speaker: He goes on to say that the wound marks on the girls' bodies weren't adequately investigated or really considered. And he says that those wound marks kind of point to the fact that the girls had been beaten prior to being murdered. And this is where I said like, Gloss says that he thinks a lot of details in the case were kind of like,
Speaker: watered down so as to not hurt the girl's reputations or spare the feelings of the mom.
Speaker: And we would actually, like a lot of people have said that over the years, like it's not just been him. There were several people who were interviewed in the McKinley Park area, so where the girls lived. That said, those two girls spent a lot of their free time outside a bar on 36th Street and Archer Avenue, which if one of the sightings was correct, they were seen walking on Archer Avenue.
Speaker: Um and there they were they would regularly pursue older men to purchase them alcoholic beverages so they're thinking like Maybe that is the case here as well And actually gloss would go on to be fired by the coroner because he refused to recant his statements. Oh
Speaker: Yeah and he in turn would be deputized by the sheriff who actually concurred with his conclusions that the girls have been beaten and tortured by a sexual predator who kind of lured them into his vehicle like after the movie. Wow.
Speaker: So we've kind of talked about potential sightings, the like potential causes of death. And now we're going to talk about possible suspects. And there are a few. OK. And all of them, in my opinion, are just like to me, none of them are like, this is the one. OK. This person killed them. So first up, we're going to talk about Edward Bedwell.
Speaker: He was a 21 year old drifter from the state of Tennessee. He had been evicted from his home in November of 1956 and ended up in the weeks leading up to the Grimes sisters disappearance, earning money as a dishwasher in a Chicago skid row restaurant. So he's there at the same time. Yes. And if you remember earlier, Allison, I talked about the girls supposedly got into a car with an Elvis lookalike.
Speaker: And Bedwell was an Elvis lookalike. Oh. According to his bosses, John and Mindy, so they owned the restaurant where he was a dishwasher. They say that he and another young man were at the restaurant in the company of two girls who resembled the Grimes sisters on December 30th. Did they drink milk? You know, I didn't read where it said, but that would kind of make sense.
Speaker: because it is a restaurant. Right. And they actually, so this couple, Edward's boss, would tell police about this interaction on January 24th. And police actually arrest Edward Bedwell. And he is interrogated for three days. What? Yeah, which is insane to me. So he's interrogated. How can you arrest him too before they've
Speaker: questioned him. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Um so initially he is like my boss is mistaken. I was with girls but it was not the Grimes sisters. It was someone else but on the 27th of January, he's actually charged with the murders of the Grimes sisters after he signed a 14 -page confession
Speaker: in which says that he and a 28 -year -old acquaintance named William Cole Willingham had been in the company of the Grimes sisters on the 30th and he stated that they were together until January 7th. January 7th. January 7th.
Speaker: drinking and various like West Madison street saloons. And according to Bedwell, after several days of the girls like wanting to be in their company, they're like the girls are tired. They're like done with this kind of rebellious moment and they're like ready to go home. He says that they feed them hot dogs, which I think is extremely specific. Yeah.
Speaker: And then the girls refused their sexual advances, and he and William Cole Willingham extensively beat the girls and then throw their nude bodies into a snow -filled ditch. Hmm. So that's his initial confession, to which the mother, Loretta Grimes, is quoted in saying, it's a lie. My girls wouldn't be on West Madison Street. They didn't even know where it was. Which may be the truth, but like,
Speaker: they could still be there. Like, I don't know where a lot of streets are in Lexington, but anything's like, hey, we're going to this restaurant on blah, blah, blah street. And I'm like, all right, let's go. And that seems an odd reaction to me. Like just speaking, you know, personally, cause she didn't say, Oh, that's a lie. They wouldn't have, you know, gotten into a car with older men. Right. She didn't say that was a lie. They wouldn't have been drinking alcohol.
Speaker: Right, she's like, oh, they wouldn't have been there. They don't even know where that is. Yeah, that's an odd reaction to me. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: So this William Cole Willingham would deny being with the Grimes sisters during that time. He's like me and Bedwell were with two girls, but they were not the Grimes sisters. It was two other girls. And Bedwell would go on to recant his statement saying that it was basically a forced confession. Like he was just held there for several days and he was like, yeah, I did it. And they actually ended up releasing him. I mean, we've seen that a lot, unfortunately.
Speaker: Yeah, and autopsy reports kind of back up Bedwell's innocence in this case, but the detective gloss would
Speaker: continue to hold to the theory that Bedwell was responsible for the murders of the Grimes sisters. So in the autopsy report, there was milk in the stomachs, there were no hot dogs. The girls had those wounds on them, but the autopsy said there was no evidence of basically beating them to death. Yeah, because they couldn't even figure out a cause of death. Right. And they basically just said they must have succumbed to the elements. Right.
Speaker: And we also have like Bedwell's time, like work card. It was stamped that he went into work at around like 4 .20 PM on the 28th and then was at work and clocked out at 12 .30 AM on the 29th. So like the time that the sisters would have likely been abducted would have been like around 11 .05 ish and he would have been at work. Right.
Speaker: But what's weird is the same year that he's acquitted of this, he's also tried and later acquitted of a 1956 rape of a 13 year old girl in Florida. What?
Speaker: like similar enough to kind of make me say to see him. And he actually died in November 1972, so we really won't know. But then I guess if we had semen in a vaginal swab, like we would not be able to do DNA and I didn't read anywhere where that had happened.
Speaker: So our second suspect is max fly again, so I'm going to call him max because I don't know. According to medium .com Max was 17 year 17 years old when he was under suspicion for being the sister's murder.
Speaker: So I didn't know this, but due to his age, Illinois law at the time said that he was not allowed to take a polygraph test. I guess because he's underage. I didn't even know there was like an age limit.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know if that's been over, like, changed since then, but at this time, he couldn't take a polygraph test. However, I read that a police captain convinced him to take one anyway. Oh, no. Can't do that. Oh, he does. And he subsequently confesses to the murders of both girls. But because the test was conducted illegally, he couldn't be charged. So it's kind of like if you don't read the Miranda rights. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: So he was released due to a lack of evidence, but was later jailed for the murder of another young woman. Oh my gosh. All these suspects. Yeah. And Loretta Grimes, so the mom, actually like said, like she did not agree with age restriction on polygraph test and like stood behind this police officer, like kind of convincing him to take the polygraph. Hmm.
Speaker: Okay. The third suspect, also with a very odd last name is suspected child killer, Charles Melquist. Yeah. So Charles was, again, so many weird last names. Charles was suspected by police because of a series of prank phone calls placed to Loretta grime in both 1957 and 1950. Okay. So listen, so this guy is at least connected to the Grimes family.
Speaker: Yeah. And you're going to say, Oh wow, this is even more of a connection when I tell you the same part. Okay. So Loretta got a phone call from an unknown caller who said that he was the one who undressed the girls, which is creepy. Uh,
Speaker: then it gets worse. 18 months later on the same night that the newspaper would report the discovery of Bonnie Lee Scott. Now she was another underage girl who was found naked in a wooded area not far from where the Grimes sisters were found and like died under similar circumstances they believed. Okay. So the same night the newspaper reports that Bonnie has been found
Speaker: Loretta Grimes receives a phone call from someone with a similar voice as the person who claimed to undress the girls that says, quote, he got away with another one. This is him. This is a guy. How could it not be? Maggie, you said there's no clear one. Oh no.
Speaker: because then I also keep going back to Bedwell. And in the phone conversation that he got away with another one guy says, he also says that the police will not be able to pin it on Bedwell or any other suspect in the case.
Speaker: So what I'm going to tell you, I think you're going to even more think that it's this Charles Melquist. According to the Columbia Chronicle, Charles, who is now dead, was never charged with killing the Grimes sisters, but he did confess to killing Bonnie Lee Scott in 1958. So that makes me think maybe it could be him because he's saying right in the phone call to Loretta that he got away with another one, meaning Bonnie. Yeah.
Speaker: You don't say another one if that's the first one. Right. But a lot of people say, and this is pure rumor. First off, he only served like eight years of his 99 year sentence for murdering Scott. Eight years? Yeah. And I don't know if like he died in prison. So that's how his sentence ended or what, because I didn't read his, like when he died.
Speaker: But it is rumored that this man had connections to the lead investigator in the Grimes case, a Sheldon Teller, and through Teller, had connections to the mob. And his connections to the - Chicago mob. Don't mess with them. Yeah, and it's rumored that his connections with the Chicago mob could have been the reason that Charles was never charged with the Grimes sister's case. Mm -hmm.
Speaker: Makes sense to me. So next is Walter Kranz. He was a 53 year old steam fitter and self proclaimed psychic. Oh goodness. So many psychics in the last couple episodes. Yeah.
Speaker: So he phoned the switchboard operator at the Chicago central police complaint room on January 15th to tell the operator that both sisters were deceased and that their bodies were going to be found in an area of loins township. So he refused at this time to disclose his name to the operator simply stating that like he'd experienced this dream and that he needed to call in and just like ended the call.
Speaker: So, despite the fact he doesn't tell police what his name is, the operator is able to trace the call to his house. So, like, we figure out who it is. You think if he's a psychic, he'd have figured that was coming, you know? So, there's a plot hole for him. Right, right.
Speaker: The part described by him in this telephone call, though, was only about one mile away from where the girls' bodies were found just a week later. So when police questioned him, he says, oh, it's totally fine that I knew where they were going to be because all of my family members and several of my ancestors have this psychic power.
Speaker: And so it's fine that I had this vision and this particular vision came to me when I was really shmammered after a night of heavy drinking. Oh my. Yeah. I'm not saying people can't have premonitions or something like that, but I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like maybe his was just like a drunken dream. Like that's what I feel like. Initially he's considered by police to be one of their number one suspects in the murders because apparently and I didn't read this anywhere else but in this source there was a handwritten note like a ransom note that was delivered to
Speaker: Loretta and they say that Kranz handwriting sorta kinda matches the handwriting on this ransom note, but he like adamantly denies any involvement in their abduction or murder and is subject to multiple interrogations, but is released and never like charged with anything. Hmm.
Speaker: So two like very no one just like very kind of off the topic theory theory was presented in A &E and it says that in this theory the sisters died after a liaison with teenage boys from a local gang who they got a ride from.
Speaker: and then like the boys abandoned the two so a local man told police that Barbara was talking to like these young guys in a car as Patricia watched the night that they went missing and that the man overheard one of the boys tell Barbara you'll be sorry so that's it on suspects Allison what are you feeling okay so i'm kind of torn
Speaker: between my head and my heart because in my heart I'm thinking I keep going back to like the Elvis lookalike and so many different people saw the girls talking to somebody in a car that my heart feels like
Speaker: It could be this last theory, even though it was so brief, that there were teenage boys, local ones, maybe who they felt more comfortable with. Or could the teenage boys have been Bedwell and Willingham? Right. And maybe this is one and the same. Yeah. I mean, it could be. Because Bedwell's only 21. Yeah.
Speaker: and I'm like 12 and I'm 30, so. Yeah. And then, but my head keeps going back to the child killer, Charles Melquist, like that, because we know he was calling Loretta, right? Like we know he's calling her and he admitted to Bonnie Scott's murder and was convicted for it.
Speaker: and the fact that he said, got away with another one. Yes. So I think I'm going to have to go with Melquist. All right, Sleuth Hounds, you let us know what you guys think.
Speaker: As we approach the holiday season, it's our hope here at Coffee and Cases that you carry stories like that of Barbara and Patricia Grimes with you. As you sit down for Thanksgiving dinner with your family or as you gather by the fireside to read the Christmas story, we hope that you remember how blessed you truly are. Not everyone has the luxury of having their loved ones close by. So smile as you remember the good times you've had with your family over the years and pray for those families that aren't so lucky.
Speaker: Pray for the ones who had to say goodbye too soon. As summer comes to a close, let's keep talking about the Grimes sisters and all of our unsolved cases. Let's keep them in our thoughts as the days pass because hopefully by sharing these stories, their days is being labeled unsolved. We'll come to an end.
Speaker: Again, please like and join us on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases Podcast, to continue the conversation and to see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases Podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases Podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcast at gmail .com.
Speaker: Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.
