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BONUS EPISODE: Interview with Matthew Gentile on his recent film, American Murderer
3.6k Plays3 years ago
When Matthew Gentile was deciding on the subject of his first feature film, he settled on the story of Jason Derek Brown. In this interview, Allison and Maggie talk to Matthew about his inspirations, his choice of this case as the subject of the film, and about his experiences in making the film.
American Murderer was released in select theaters on October 21st and will be available via streaming services beginning on October 28th.
Be sure to check out our episode cover Jason Derek Brown's case in Episode 154.
If you are interested in hearing the full story of Jason Derek Brown, please read his sister Jami Brown's book Center of Attention: A True Crime Memoir available here, on Amazon.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to American Murderer and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
In addition to listening to this interview with director Matthew Gentile and about his film American Murderer, which is available now in select theaters and available via streaming beginning on October 28th, I urge you to not only check out our episode 154 on Jason Derek Brown's case, but also to read Jamie Brown's book Center of Attention, a true crime memoir available on Amazon.
00:00:28
Speaker
for insight into the full story of Jason Derek Brown.
00:01:09
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families.
00:01:28
Speaker
With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Discussing Jason Derek Brown and Film Overview
00:01:46
Speaker
Those who are listeners to our show have now heard our coverage of the Jason Derek Brown case, which will be featured in the upcoming film entitled American Murderer, featuring esteemed actors like Tom Pelfrey, Ryan Phillippe, Jackie Weaver, and Adina Menzel. In today's episode, we have the privilege of speaking with the film's writer and director, Matthew
Matthew Gentile's Filmmaking Journey
00:02:10
Speaker
Gentile. So welcome Matthew. Allison and Maggie, thank you so much for having me.
00:02:16
Speaker
Absolutely. So before we jump into discussing the film itself, which was so good, we would love to hear more about what drew you into the industry in the first place. Was there a particular event, an aha moment or something when you recognize that filmmaking was for you?
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah. I've wanted to be a filmmaker since I was, I think, 12 years old. Well, actually, as I'm sure before I wanted to be a filmmaker, I wanted to be an FBI agent and that actually led to how I learned about this story, but more on that later. When I was 12 years old, my father showed me the movie Dog Day Afternoon with Al Pacino.
00:02:57
Speaker
And I was a little too young to see it, but it quickly became one of my favorite films to the point where I said to my dad, yeah, I want movies like this now. What else you got? And he showed me, you know, The Godfather and Goodfellas and all fiction and, you know, movies that really kind of blew the box for me. Film noirs. So I always kind of found myself drawn towards films about
00:03:19
Speaker
anti heroes, I even think of Paul Newman and Hudd and the Hustler, you know, I really loved movies like that, that kind of explored a bit of the darker side or the grayer side of humanity. So, you know, I was like every other, you know, 12 year old wants to be a filmmaker, I made movies in class and whatnot. But one big moment was my mother when I was I grew up in New York City, and they used to sell screenplays on street stands, like little vendors would like sell them printed out from like the internet.
00:03:46
Speaker
And you could just go and buy a script for 10 bucks. And so my mom saw me eyeing a copy of Dog Day Afternoon. So she bought me the screenplay, I brought it home, and I read it. And it was the first time I ever read a screenplay and learned what that was. That words on a page could become images on a screen.
00:04:06
Speaker
And I just said, you know, like this guy Frank Pearson, who wrote the screenplay, and this guy, Sidney Lumet, who directed the movie, those are my heroes, I want to be them, you know. And so, you know, I grew up, I know in the city, I went to film school at the American Film Institute at AFI, I worked in the entertainment industry, I worked in the mailroom of a talent agency before I then became an assistant in the talent department, I was there for about a year.
00:04:30
Speaker
I went to film school at AFI, made a lot of short films.
The Making of American Murderer
00:04:34
Speaker
Some of them, you know, did pretty, opened up a lot of doors for me, you know.
00:04:38
Speaker
I was trying to figure out, though, what my first feature as a writer and director was. I ultimately settled on the story of American Murderer when it really came back into my life in a way I didn't expect it completely grabbed me. Just the story of Jason Derek Brown when I realized he was missing after all these years. And that became the impetus to make my first feature film. And it took a long time to get American Murderer made, but it was a long but very rewarding
00:05:06
Speaker
I'm just glad we got to make it with this incredible cast and at the time that we did also in the height of the pandemic. So it's a special journey that I can talk at length about.
Role and Challenges of a Film Director
00:05:16
Speaker
I feel like your life needs to be a movie.
00:05:19
Speaker
I want to see the movie about the little boy who reads the screen. He goes on to direct these great films. So in terms of being a director, I guess what is the most important quality of a film director? And are there any directors who you think of as role models?
00:05:42
Speaker
Good question. I don't know that I'm qualified to answer it, but yes, I have a lot of role models, certainly. I think film is kind of a life, meaning that it's all consuming. Not in that there's a lot of jobs that are way more higher stakes and more important. I'd argue that being a nurse or a teacher is way more important than being a film. Why thank you.
00:06:08
Speaker
But I do feel that way. But you know, because when I get I do tell people I get to, I get to dream, I get to play for a living, you know, right? But I take it extremely seriously. And most of the filmmakers I've known, especially the good ones take it very seriously. This is, you know, you're always studying, you're always trying to get better, you're trying to be an observer of the human condition as best as you can, depending on what kind of movies you want to make the kinds of films I want to make, you know, you want to be you want to be able to observe human behavior and
00:06:36
Speaker
really look at it up close in a nuanced way. Because look, when you get to make a movie, you're asking to talk to thousands and thousands or millions, if you're lucky, of people in a dark room or on their televisions. You get to communicate. By making American murder, I get to show anyone who's listening.
00:06:56
Speaker
who decides to click it or come see it in the theater, you know, we're getting to talk to you, you know, and we're going to have a conversation and that's pretty powerful. You know, I think that for me, what I've learned is that I think having a lot of balances, you know, because when you're directing on set, you're a leader, you know, and you do have to, you know, like they compare to a general, you have to get the crew, you know, get the movie, you know, brought in and bring it in on time and all of that. But, you know, tell the story and tell the story in the right way.
00:07:26
Speaker
So there's so much one as a director has to learn. And, you know, on the last day of filming, we wrapped and we actually shot the last scene, the last shot of the film last, which is pretty rare. It doesn't always happen. Wow. You know, and Tom comes up to me and he goes, how you feeling, buddy? And I was in such a euphoric rise because, you know, we'd finished it and I couldn't believe it that we'd finished shooting. And I looked at him and I said,
00:07:54
Speaker
Buddy, you know, this is my first movie. I have so much to learn. I have so much to gain. You know, I've got to build muscle. But oh, my God, I think we put a real person on the screen. And I think you're amazing. And then I went to my hotel room and I fell asleep on the floor. So, you know, it was just you're constantly learning.
00:08:19
Speaker
pushing yourself to do better, to be better, to learn from mistakes and all of that. It's a constantly changing process.
Influences and Style of Gentile
00:08:27
Speaker
Being a director is interesting because you find yourself in a position where you have to balance a lot of different energies that come at you on set. There's actors who have their own energy, there's producers, there's crew, there's background, all these different things going on. It's like you're running in front of a locomotive train.
00:08:48
Speaker
So what is like teaching in a class? You sound like you're a teacher, you're hurting at all. Yeah, well, I've taught a couple, I've guest lectured a couple times. Like I said, I'm a terrible teacher, but I, after doing that, I really, my respect for teachers. But no, yeah, absolutely. It is like a classroom, right? It's that, you know, because when you're in a classroom, you have that adrenaline, right? Shooting, there's definitely an adrenaline rush. Editing is where you really get to shape the film.
00:09:18
Speaker
and really kind of sculpt because you know shooting they compare to there's one of great knowledge is that shooting is like grocery shopping, editing is like actually cooking. Oh, that's right. They're both kind of like it but like, it's like, yeah, I gotta get this I gotta get the baseball I gotta get you know, and then you get to the kitchen. Okay, what do we got? No, I love that analogy. That's who needs to run back out. So yeah, you know, I love editing a lot. But yeah, no, I have so many role models. I mean,
00:09:44
Speaker
One of my, of course, classics is France for Coppola, where I had the pleasure of meeting at the world premiere this week. Oh, nice. We showed the film in Italy, in Tarmena, and the film festival there, and he was there with the Godfather, 50th anniversary of my complete coincidence, so it was just a stroke of luck. So yeah, you know, Scorsese, Spielberg, of course, De Palma, Brian De Palma. I'm a big old movie person too. I live on TCM.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yes. Criterion. So, you know, I love film noir. Film noir really inspired this
Portraying True Crime Stories
00:10:17
Speaker
movie a lot. You know, there were a lot of noirish films that really honestly proved to me that a film like this could exist because, you know, movies like American Murderer and movies about characters like Jason Derek Brown don't necessarily get made a lot, you know, because they're not the easiest sell. You know, it's a complex guy. So,
00:10:39
Speaker
you know, I think for me, film noir and movies that really aren't afraid to show, you know, the dark side of humanity. And that's kind of what is in Jesus Christ. And you had to, I think, I mean, obviously I know absolutely nothing about directing a movie, but I would think you almost made that a little bit more hard on yourself because where this is a true story, you not only had to worry about
00:11:03
Speaker
you know, telling the story, but you also had to worry about these actually are real people. Are you portraying these people right? You know, it's not a fictional character that you made up. And I think that's just incredible that you were able to do that. Yeah. You know, and I call the brand as I've been talking about, I call true crime fiction, meaning that it is a true crime. There are a lot of true things in the movie. You know, I, I did a lot of research. You know, I read everything I could get my hands on. I,
00:11:32
Speaker
interviewed some people on my own, I won't say who because I don't want to out them. But I did do interviews where I got to, you know, talk to people who do some of the characters that were portrayed. You know, but I ultimately decided to, you know, in my research, you know, one decision to key decision I had to make that was a little tough was not talking to the family, because I wanted to make sure that my take on Jason wasn't filtered, you know, open as possible to portray him in this way. And you know, I ultimately that was also
00:12:00
Speaker
specifically challenging because this is a story about family at the core. You know, on this surface, American Murderer is a cat and mouse thriller. You've got your chase. You know, you've got Tom Pelfrey squaring off against Ryan Phillip Bay, right? You know, you've got, you know, the man hunter and the outlaw, right? But ultimately, you know, it's a movie to me about family.
00:12:19
Speaker
and relationships and siblings and love and all of that. And that's what it's, you know, that's the Trojan horse is the crime thriller. But yeah, you know, so it's ultimately about that and examining that. And so
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, you know, choosing to do it. It's funny because my next film is a true story. You know, the one I'm planning to do after is also so true crime is my genre for now of choice. Well, we love that. So yeah, we're here for that coming. I'll talk about all my movies on this podcast if you want. OK, so since you are Brooklyn native, correct? That's right. So what drew you to this story? What was it that just pulled you in?
Connection to Jason Derek Brown's Story
00:13:01
Speaker
So when I was 14 years old, I used to go on the FBI's top 10 most wanted fugitives. Oh, okay. Because you wanted to be the FBI agent. Exactly. I want to be that before I was a filmmaker. And I was pretty, you know, when you look at the FBI top 10 list in that era of the 2000s, Thoroughly Odds and then the mid, you know, like the 2009 or 2020, you know, you had a lot of menacing faces on them. You still do.
00:13:29
Speaker
Osama bin Laden, Whitey Bulger, most of whom were eventually captured. I saw Jason Derrick Brown's face there, not on the top 10 in 2004. He actually joined the top 10 list in 2007, but he was a fugitive starting in 2004 when I was around 14 years old. And I remembered his face stood out to me. He was a surfer dude with spiky blonde hair.
00:13:53
Speaker
blue eyes, looked like Spicoli from Fast Times at Richmond High. Exactly. And you know, he just, he didn't fit the profile. Something about this seemed off. So cut to 12, 13 years later, I've graduated film school at AFI. I'm trying to figure out what my first feature is. I'm having this existential question of do I try to write my own movie? Do I try to direct something that someone offered me, which I was fortunate to have a couple, but you know, I was kind of in this in-between moment. I was trying to figure out what that movie was and I'm sitting on my couch
00:14:23
Speaker
And I'm drawing storyboards for a dentistry commercial that I was filming at the time. And I'm drawing out the shots. And as I draw out storyboards for my shoots, I always have something on the background, whether it's a true crime documentary or something else, Shark Tank or whatever. And so as I'm drawing, all of a sudden I look up at the TV and Jason Derek Brown's face flashed across the screen.
00:14:49
Speaker
And I turned the volume up because I just remember it all of a sudden came running back. I was like, who is it? I was like, oh, that's the guy. And I turned the volume up and I started watching, you know, because Jason's story has been covered extensively. There's so much out there about it. So I started watching this documentary. And this documentary was interesting because it interviewed a lot of people who knew him and it also interviewed the FBI agent who hunted him. So I started to listen and
00:15:17
Speaker
I was immediately struck by here was a crime that was interesting, you know, an armed robbery, right? A murder, a fugitive, all the stuff that I would definitely go to a movie theater for. But what really kind of kept pinging me about the story was not just Jason Derek Brown, this charismatic con man, but this person who meant so many things to so many different people. Yes, I agree.
00:15:45
Speaker
was loved by a lot of people, someone who was popular, someone who was exciting, someone who was romantic, someone who was dangerous, someone who was scary, someone who was sociopathic. So, you know, narcissistic. So you had all of these things that just really excited me. And I just thought to myself, you know, I was like, I've seen a movie where this guy is like the villain, but I've never seen a movie where this kind of guy is the star. You know, this is the guy you're forced to be with. And I would pay, you know, 18 bucks. I think it was one ticket cost in LA now.
00:16:14
Speaker
18 bucks to go see this on opening night, I would. And I have a great screenwriter named Billy Ray who says, if you don't wake up thinking about your project, you probably shouldn't be writing it. And I always thought that was great. So for me, and I am someone who writes first thing in the morning, so for me, I woke up every morning about this movie. I said, okay, so once it got its claws in me, then I started researching it and that became a deep
00:16:42
Speaker
deep dive web and that led to me deciding this was going to be my first feature. So that was going to be my question. How long did it take you to research and write your script? Baggy too long. I have a very slow process. I'm trying to get faster now because that's what they want you to be in Hollywood, but I'm slow. I first had the idea back in 2018, I want to say, to do it.
00:17:12
Speaker
And I think I wrote the first drafts of it. Keep in mind, I was writing a lot of stuff. I was also working as a script reader. That was my way of bagging my bills.
Overcoming Production Challenges
00:17:22
Speaker
And I wrote the script, what they call on spec, which means I just did it on my own time, on my own time, just writing when I could. And in 2018, late 2018, I started to get interested. I did a proof of concept short, which I had a very talented actor named Jonathan Crawford, playing the role of Jason there. And he was loosely attached with that.
00:17:42
Speaker
The script got picked up by two companies, Traveling Picture Show and GG Films, Gio Walsh, Kevin Matuso, Chris Bafell. They came together. These three producers converged upon me kind of at the same time and they optioned the screenplay for me. We developed it for about a year before we really went out to go cast it. And in that time, Jonathan had
00:18:05
Speaker
just was booking up too many things. But, you know, we went out to cast the movie finally in March of 2020, when the world was shutting down. Yeah. So, you know, this was a long journey because like already by the time we got to shooting the film, I believe I'd been working on the project for about two and a half, three years. Wow. So it took a long time. And then editing was really, you know, the only thing fast about American Murderers making was the shoot, the shoot was really quick.
00:18:34
Speaker
And then the editing that took a while and your post generally does, post-production generally does, but it was, you know, it was a slow cook, you know, for sure. I think door to door, it was like four or four and a half years, but, you know, it was definitely worth it because I think, you know, all of the false starts that led up to this movie happening, you know, there was a lot of time for the first two years, I think my, like, my family, whenever I want to be like, when's your movie getting made? You know, when's it getting made? And I was like, stop asking me.
00:19:03
Speaker
Um, but you know, it's been really worth it because all that time allowed this idea and the screenplay to really develop so that by the time we got to go, we were really ready. Um, you know, we were, you know, we were lucky because we shot, you know, we shot the film November and December 2020. So right in the thick of the pandemic, um, when things were, you know, we were filming in Utah too. And in November in Utah, I was like,
00:19:27
Speaker
Utah was in the news every day in a really bad way. I'd only told three people, my brother and my parents, and they were like, are you okay? Are you all right? And I was like, I'll be fine. But when we were shooting, it was like any day we'd get shut down because it was pre-vaccines. It was just a crazy time. So yeah, it was quite a journey, and I can talk about any part of it you want me to. But yeah, it was a roller coaster for sure. But a good roller coaster.
00:19:57
Speaker
Well, the film was so good, so it definitely shows that you took the time. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Well, so I guess here's a question. You kind of alluded to it earlier since this movie is based on a true story. I know you said you didn't want to necessarily talk to too many people because you didn't want it to influence your choices artistically that you made in the film.
00:20:23
Speaker
Are there guidelines or special care that you feel like you need to follow as a writer or a director in terms of being accurate? Like, I've always wondered that when I watch a film that says based on a true story, is there some kind of like unspoken guide that says, okay, at least, you know, 75% of the details need to be factually. Yeah, I feel like it would be like creative nonfiction, you know, like most of it is, I mean, I have no idea, but that's what I think of. We could compare it to literature, like it's nonfiction, but we have a creative
00:20:53
Speaker
side to it. No, it's a great, it's a totally valid question because it's, it's been a question with movies that are based on true stories since the beginning of them. You know, like I remember a film that I loved The Hurricane with Denzel Washington, you know, it's one of the best performances of all time. That movie got ripped to shreds because then it got a lot of controversy at the time that kind of overshadowed the movie's merits because of how much stuff it made up.
00:21:17
Speaker
But the reality is, you know, accuracy was not something I was necessarily pursuing. Because, you know, for me, you know, now, I think if you're making a documentary, although documentaries are very complex, too, because documentaries have a whole system in place of like, what can they say? What can't they say? So many documentaries have gotten in trouble for the same things that fiction filmmakers get or narrative filmmakers get in trouble for. So it's a complex issue. You know, I think, look, for me, you know, my intent for making this movie
00:21:48
Speaker
was to, you know, one tele compelling story about a dark soul, to show him to an audience as who I believe in my interpretation is who he was.
Complexity in True Crime Narratives
00:22:00
Speaker
Right. That was my intention was to really show Jason Derek Brafro after everything I heard and learned, listen, and then imagined, believe him. Right. You know, and I am sure there are some things that are based on what I've read and known about him, I think there are some things that are accurate. But that's all stuff
00:22:22
Speaker
in this film is Ryan's character because I learned about Jason through interviews, photographs, videos, things he left behind. So I know what Jason wears because there's a thousand pictures of him and green striped button downs, right? I know what Jason did because like, you know, I have had some interviews with people who vaguely knew him. And even those, I took the greatest songs, who knows how truthful they're being. And that's part of, you know, the dramatic effect of the film. You know, we constructed it as a nonlinear narrative
00:22:51
Speaker
where you're learning about Jason Derrick Brown from so many different points of view, you're seeing him three months, and that's part of what the movie's about also, is how this testimony is unreliable to a certain degree. Everyone's got an unreliable narrator in the film from this experience of that. So when you make a narrative film and it's not a documentary, I do think there are different rules that apply because real life often does not play out like a film narrative. It's very rare that you find a story that does.
00:23:21
Speaker
And so there is a good amount of inventing required on a dramatist's standpoint, you know. One of my favorite movies of the 2010s was The Social Network, by those masterpieces. And, you know, I am sure there are things in that, like Mark Zuckerberg apparently said, well, no, I've been the same girlfriend the whole time. I never had, you know, that breakup, right? Or, yeah, I wear these blobs with those blobs. And, you know,
00:23:47
Speaker
And look, I mean, if someone made a movie about my life, which you guys said they might one day, I probably will be pissed off at some things in the movie. Whatever, my posture's not that bad. But you know, I think that that's something that happens. You know, and I think, look, I cared more about being, and I hope this doesn't sound pretentious, but I care more about being truthful than accurate. Meaning that I was pursuing what I thought to be the truth about who this guy was.
00:24:18
Speaker
But that was my intention was to chase, to try to be emotionally true to the scenes in the story as I saw it play out. And like you said, I think.
00:24:30
Speaker
every person that was involved in his life had a different perception of him. So I don't think you could say this is the true, any of those were true perceptions of him because everyone's perception was different and you were having to use all of those perceptions to come up with what you portrayed in the movie. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? Correct. Yeah. No, exactly. You nailed it on the head. That's what the movie's about.
00:24:55
Speaker
you know, the movie is about what he meant to all these different people and how they all saw him and how that's, you know, okay, so who are we left with at the end of the
Artistic Expression and Film vs Podcast
00:25:03
Speaker
day? You know, so the movie is very much a question film. You know, it's not really a, it's not a, I don't do really message movies. That's not my, that's not my thing. You know, I really, I like movies that linger, hopefully linger along in your mind after you see it and have you ask me, who was that guy? What did he mean? What was he about? You know, and hopefully warrants you to watch the movie a second time and be like, there's something I didn't notice.
00:25:26
Speaker
So yeah, that's kind of what I was chasing. I think it's interesting because from an artistic standpoint, it's so different with filmmaking versus say what Maggie and I do with podcasting. For us, it's all about, okay, did we get the fine details correct? And what I think is fascinating with film, and maybe this is why I love it so much, is that it does kind of create these
00:25:55
Speaker
just a series of questions rather than facts, which is what we deal with. And I think you did a fantastic job of just delving into psychologically the different shades of gray that is Jason Derek Brown, because he is a conundrum. I mean, even doing the research into him, it's
00:26:18
Speaker
mind-boggling in so many ways because He is this one thing and he is it's dichotomy at this time crying and then he's like wiping his tears away and he's like, yeah They're dumb. And I just thought it's so good And that's part of you I attribute that the top belfries performance which you know you
00:26:41
Speaker
Oh, fantastic. I think Tom really understood the character on a deep, deep level. Because there was a version of this movie that could have totally gone the wrong way. And Ben felt like a spoof or felt like over the top. And it is a larger than life character. So you need an actor who can go big and go larger than life. Some people on set compare Tom a little bit to having some elements in Jim Carrey, a little bit of Nicholson even.
Independent Production and Team Effort
00:27:08
Speaker
He just has that kind of larger than life persona on screen.
00:27:11
Speaker
Oscar, he's the nicest, coolest guy, but you know, the, you know, yeah, he really could go there. And I think Tom really gave a true unhinged performance, uninhibited. And it was really spectacular. That's a good word. He would really get in there and he could just
00:27:30
Speaker
he did things that surprised me every day on that set. When we filmed the boat party scene, you just start doing pull ups. I wasn't asking him to, but he just did it. The nightclub scene, he improvised half of that, just went off on these amazing, so which were so good, but I couldn't put them in. It was too funny or whatever. It was always, yeah, there was just a
00:27:55
Speaker
a great line we were towing. And he really understood the character and was mindful of how we were portraying him, you know. So what were some of the challenges that you faced when creating this film? Well, then, you know, making your first shooting a first feature is hard. Shooting a movie in COVID is hard. Hard. Yeah, right. And then shooting movies just hard in general.
00:28:24
Speaker
So I think that, look, this is an indie film. It was a labor of love for everybody involved. There was no huge paychecks. This was a grassroots movie. And for us to get to do it, it was really ambitious. I think we shot 28 locations in 22 filming days. Wow. So that's not a lot of time. And you've seen the movie. So there's some action. There's some SWAT.
00:28:54
Speaker
there's some armed robbery, there's some stunts and tackling. It's not a movie just of people talking in rooms, which if I was smarter, that's probably what I would have done as a movie. But I went big on the first one. And I think pulling all that off definitely took a lot of time and really preparation. But fortunately, because of how long it took to get made, I had a lot of time to prepare. And so by the time I was on set, I really did pretty much know every shot.
00:29:23
Speaker
every costume, every detail of hair, makeup wardrobe that I wanted. Me and my team, I'm very lucky to have an incredible team. My cinematographer, Clela Robinson, who shot this, is her first feature also. She's incredible. My editors, it's their first movie. We've all went to AFI together. My brother did the music. Scott Gentile, it's his first film. Oh, wow. He's a conductor and pianist as his day job, but he was in lockdown. Wow. Concerts got canceled. Concerts booked all around the world on a world tour.
00:29:53
Speaker
He just, he's a wild artist, but now he's great. He's the best and he really pulled off the impossible. I mean, this was his first nature. So, you know, he really had a lot of good producers who had been in on this thing with me for a long time and took a chance on a first time director.
00:30:16
Speaker
I think the biggest challenge, honestly, and I think it's anyone's to use is kind of rising to the plate, you know, like stuck their necks out for you, your team all came, right? You know, your film score friends, your brother, your producers who have become your friend, you know, everyone's here, this amazing cast has come to help you make your first movie.
00:30:37
Speaker
So it's ultimately was about rising to the challenge. And, you know, I think we did. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It was an incredible time.
Casting Process and Success
00:30:47
Speaker
But yeah, there's a lot of logistical challenges. Film is a craft that you can always get better at. And there's always things, you know, I'll be learning. I'm sure from movie to movie. But now I feel very proud of the film and proud of the people who worked on it and who helped me get it made.
00:31:03
Speaker
So obviously it's impressive that this is your first, I guess, bigger film and you have so many big stars in your, this film. It's so cool. How did, how did they come to be an American murderer? Well, um, you know, we were, you know, when you go out to cast a movie,
00:31:27
Speaker
you always have lists. I was very lucky. I had an incredible cast and director Patricia de Cerro. She did some amazing films like Blue Jasmine and many others. So she's been around for a long time. And she has a very good intel on who's good and who's up and coming and whatnot. But you know, it always started with who's gonna play Jason. That was always tough one for getting this film off the ground. It was always who's gonna play Jason, who's gonna play
00:31:53
Speaker
And, um, you know, we had a list and there were a lot of great names and there were some people, you know, who came and went, uh, some of them we made offers to said no. And around April, 2020, we were in that like shutdown area. My producer Gio Walsh gives me a call and she says, Hey, Matthew, are you watching those articles?
00:32:10
Speaker
And I said, no, I'm not. And she said, well, you need to. And I would get a call like this, keep in mind every week. Matthew, this person's amazing. That person's amazing. He's a very incredible, enthusiastic person. So I'm like, okay, Gia, great. Thank you. And so she tells me this name. An hour later, my brother calls me and he goes, hey, are you watching those articles? This guy, Tom, is really great. And I'm like, okay, that's a second thing. What's going on? Did Gia call him Italian? So then after that, my friend who's Italian agent calls me.
00:32:38
Speaker
And he says, hey, I read your script last weekend and you should look at Tom. He's great for this. So now I'm like, I've got three of you. I'm like, okay, I'm going to stop what I'm doing and I'll watch Ozark. So I turned it on. I flip on the screen at the Netflix and I start watching. And when I was 16, I was really into acting in theater and I used to have a theater teacher. I did some program at Carnegie Mellon. She used to say to us this really weird quote.
00:33:04
Speaker
or did you go, they know, those directors know in the first five seconds if you're the person. And me and my actor friends would laugh and be like, like, what are you talking about? How do they know in five seconds if you need an audition, you know? But, and I always, I never really believed that necessarily. But then when she, when I saw Tom in that first scene and I was like, we play as a teacher and he's in that classroom, I know, I finally knew what she meant. I was like, oh my God, he's the guy. That's gotta be Belford.
00:33:35
Speaker
Um, and you know, he had a lot of the traits. He was just very clear. He, you know, Tom Jason has to be charismatic. He has to be fun to watch. You have to like pass that quality. You can't take your eyes off him. He has to be physical. You know, it's not, you know, it's a physical role. He, you know, he has to have an appeal, you know, of a certain kind. He has to write. So there were all these traits you needed to have and Tom had all. So it was very, and he has to be unpredictable, which Tom also has as an actor. You'd never know what that guy's going to do. And that's what makes him so exciting to watch.
00:34:04
Speaker
So it was a meeting and I called Gia up and I'm like, all right, I watched Ozark. What do we got to do to get Tom Belfry? And she was like, don't write a letter. We've written enough letters. I'd written letters to every other actor. When they pass, she goes, no, no, stop the letters. Let me just talk to his agent and we'll, you know, get in the script. So they get in the screenplay. You have to keep in mind, Tom at this time was heating up quite a lot because Ozark had just gotten us. And now everybody was like, who's this guy? We want to work with them.
00:34:32
Speaker
And I'm a first-time director with a small movie. So it was pretty competitive from what I know. But his agent really loved the script and that helped. And then he really loved the script. And he had some questions about how we were doing it and how we were going to portray Jason. And we really talked a lot about that. And I think that at the end of the day, it's funny because I learned who Tom Belfry was officially in April 2020.
00:35:03
Speaker
for me to imagine anybody else playing this one. Yeah, anyone but him. I don't think the movie would work without it. He was the guy, and that kind of always happens in film. You think it's a fun thing, and then something else happens. You're like, oh yeah, of course that's it. There's a lot of fun. Right, right. So that was how Tom came on. Then once Tom came on, the cast came together pretty fast. Ryan was at the top of my list for Lance slicing, and we got him.
00:35:33
Speaker
You know, I've always loved Ryan's work. You know, Cruel Intentions was the sleepover movie growing up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And Flags of War. But I just saw him in so many films. And one of my mentors directed him as an FBI agent, a CIA agent in Breach. And, you know, he's just a great actor who's been around for such a long time. He's had, he finally, you know, has so many good stories. I mean, he's been acting for 25 years and he looks younger than me. You know, he's just so, he's such a mild and professional
00:36:13
Speaker
And again, you know, not necessarily accurate, but honest. He said if the honest fell straight forward, I really connected with that. And, you know, he said he was like, and I was just so glad you didn't have that cliche scene of the FBI agent, you know, like saying like, I have to find him. Right, right, right. It just felt real to me.
00:36:34
Speaker
He's a great guy, total joy to work with. And then it was kind of a snowball effect. Once Tom and Ryan were in.
00:36:44
Speaker
you know, the financiers came through and Adina, you know, and Jackie, I mean, like, you know, Oh, Jackie was fantastic. I mean, yeah, you're talking about a two time Oscar. And I got to tell you, this cast totally exceeded what my expectations were. And I'm not saying that to be modest. Like I had lists of actors I thought we could get for this movie. And they were way in terms of like, you know, celebrities or people names, people knew they were way they weren't that they weren't like these cast these cast members. They're all great actors, but they weren't right. And
00:37:13
Speaker
I remember Jackie Weaver, my producer, one of our producers, giving me notes on the script. They were like, you know, the scene with the mother you could really like get into more. And I was like, I don't know what first of the script to do. And he was like, I mean, really, he goes, Matthew, if you write this scene well enough, you could get Jackie Weaver.
00:37:31
Speaker
And I was like, I said, this producer really believes in me. And I laughed at him. I was like, I'm not going to get Jackie Weaver to do the small part in the movie. Like, are you crazy? She just did Steve McQueen's movie. She's not going to do mine. And sure enough, we got her. Like, when we made the offer, it was a craftsman, too. So I mean, it just was really like, it was just so many forces coming together. And look, I mean, and I don't say this to be falsely modest, if we had shot in any other time, I don't think we would have gotten a cast like this.
00:38:01
Speaker
because in November of 2020, a lot of people were shut down, locked in, and not worked. You know, Idina Menzel probably would have been on her 50th concert tour, right, and shooting her, you know, Disney Chances. Her much bigger Disney would be a Disney Princess, and Broadway star, and icon, and Jackie would have been on Yellowstone, and anything, right, a million other things. You know, all of them, Oasis, Arias, who plays
00:38:29
Speaker
the drug dealer from Kyle. You know, he's like on Jonathan Nolan's new show now. I just saw him in the screen for Boston. I loved his character. He's great. He's really good. And so we just I just don't think we would have gotten these people if not for the timing and you know, the fact that they did respond to the script helps.
Cinematography and Editing Insights
00:38:47
Speaker
But you know, it's a film's hard, you know, and it is. It's a lot of you someone said you need talent timing and law
00:38:55
Speaker
and like two of those three things, right? Some directors have great timing and luck, but maybe not talented. I have a lot of talent, but bad luck, you know? So you gotta do those things. I think we, you know, I can definitely say luck is on our side when we overshoot. Well, you've got all three in spades, but.
00:39:12
Speaker
I have to say, and I won't ruin anything for people, obviously, they haven't seen the film yet, but the cinematography choices were wonderful in the film. And my favorite is the final shot. And, you know, so many films I feel like I go to see and the ending ruins it for me. And yours was perfect. It was like a breakfast club ending.
00:39:44
Speaker
That's the second best combo I've gotten today. Someone comparing it to Coca-Cola. Breakfast Club ending is the second best combo. That's great. I love it. But how hard is it to figure out how to end
00:39:57
Speaker
a film? I mean, I would imagine that is what you spend the longest time on. It is an excellent question. And I will tell you that there's a great screenwriter named William Goldman, who famously wrote a book, the one great book about screenwriting called Adventures in the Screen Trade. And he used to say endings are the hardest. And you know, I will tell you something about the ending without ruining
00:40:23
Speaker
But, you know, as we know, the movie is non-linear. So it's told through a lot of, you know, Ryan's character. Some parts of the movie you're just following Jason Derek Brown around and you're in his point of view. And then for a lot of the movie, you're outside his point of view and you're seeing kind of different perspectives. And Ryan's character is kind of guiding you through it, sort of like a tour guide, you know, taking you to different people who are going to, you know, give you an account and a testament. He's grounding the film, right?
00:40:50
Speaker
The film was told had kind of been different, you know, going back and forth and time in a pretty sophisticated way that did not start out sophisticated, but the game sophisticated. And, you know, in the script, actually, it's kind of funny is after the third act originally was linear, because my feeling was I've done so much jumping around in time that the last third of the movie, I was like, well, there's so much, you know, going on. I don't need to do any jumps here. I'll just, you know, play it out.
00:41:20
Speaker
But when we screened the first cuts of the film, we realized the third actor did fall kind of flat and didn't quite have the pizzazz we needed. Because really what happened was the rest of the movie had a certain rhythm in the last third, even though it had some of the best scenes in the movie, was not working. And so we had to really come up with that in the edit room. But my editor, Matt Allen, and my cinematographer, Colin Robinson, both worked, and my editor Chris Young, we all worked really closely together and talked about this thing a lot.
00:41:51
Speaker
And, you know, my producers really also did a great job giving us the right notes that pushed us to, you know, find the right solutions to make that third act pop the way it needed to. Because, you know, it is a crazy ending and there's a lot that goes down. And it is, you know, a fairly without spoiling kind of an ambiguous ending. Right. It's not, you know, happy. It's definitely not happy. It's quite sad in a lot of ways and tragic. And, you know, and I do view the film as a tragedy.
00:42:21
Speaker
But yeah, without spoiling too much, I could tell you something fun about the final shot. Because spoiler alert, there's snow. And the snow you're seeing in that shot is symbolic. It is symbolic. Snow and rain never look great on film when they're fake.
00:42:45
Speaker
Well, it's not that it never looks great. When movies have a lot of money to pay for them, they look pretty good. But it never looks as good as the real deal. Like, if you can get real, it's not a real deal. So we had a snow machine. And we were filming the last shot. And we were actually going to film it later in the night. But while we had the snow machines blowing, like, fine enough looking snow. But definitely not up to what I wanted. But I was like, maybe we'll just do 50 frames and make it better.
00:43:14
Speaker
For 40 minutes, we had real perfect Utah snow. It was December. Oh, wow. We had a real perfect Utah snow. And that just made it look that much better. Yeah. That was another movie God's helping us out. That's right. There's your luck. Because we were filming at Utah, and it was 80 degree weather all winter. But no snow, but pretty much
Release Strategy and Future Aspirations
00:43:40
Speaker
when we needed it. And then finally, for that one shot where there is snow, the snow
00:43:44
Speaker
Perfectly fell, we got the shot and we moved on. So there you go, that's a fun job for you. Wow. How did you decide when, well, I guess how did you decide the best way to release your film? Well, you know, I'm very lucky that I have excellent distributors at Saban and Universal doing our four. And so I'm lucky that we have,
00:44:13
Speaker
great partners there, and they do way more about that than me. I'm just kind of there to help. I think as a director you kind of have, there's four steps, right? You write, well, not all directors write their scripts, but you write your script or you get your script ready, you shoot the movie, you edit the movie, and then you help get it out there.
00:44:31
Speaker
I was very lucky that Saban, they do specialize in a lot of genre movies and actors. We had some offers, I won't say who else was there, but Saban really clearly got the film, was very passionate about the film, understood how to get it out there into the world.
00:44:48
Speaker
You know, look, I feel very lucky that I'm getting a theatrical release period. It's very rare for movies like this to get that these days. The reality is most people will see it on television or streaming. And I think it's, you know, if you can get to see it through theater, please do. Because I think I'm not just worth your 10, 12 bucks, but you know, if not... Well, I have a huge family and I'm making them all go. So you'll at least have like 30 people that are seeing it. Well, I'll get the theater list soon. So I'll send it out.
00:45:17
Speaker
Um, I appreciate that. But yeah, no, I mean, look, most people will see it on streaming and look, most of the movies I grew up loving. I saw a TV, you know, I saw a dog for the first time on a television. Um, I saw it recently on the big screen. They played it here. Um, yes, I got to do that, but you know, it's, it's, and I love going to the theater and I always will, but you know, the reality is streaming and video on demand for emerging filmmakers like myself and, you know, uh,
00:45:44
Speaker
I've been coming filmmakers, inspiring filmmakers. It's a really incredible thing because it's allowed us to be able to reach audiences we never normally would. So I'm glad that Sivan really seems to know that Mark and Lauren are a great partner. And I thought their trailer was really cool and conveyed what the movie is quite well. So yeah, I'm lucky to be working with them. They're my first distributor. So it's exciting times.
00:46:09
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So one final big question for you, Matthew. Okay. And that goes back to just you personally. What kind of, when you picture the future of your career, what kind of legacy do you want to leave as a writer-director? Whew. You ask good questions. Well, you asked me earlier, and I realized I didn't really answer who my role models were. My favorite filmmaker of all time is Akira Kurosawa.
00:46:39
Speaker
And he had an incredible quote. This guy, you know, Japanese filmmaker made some of the best films, arguably ever made, Seven Samurai. It made a wide range. Ikiru, you know, is about a man dying of cancer, basically, is the plot of that movie. And I saw it four years ago in Los Angeles on a Saturday afternoon, the crowd, 300 person crowd was backed, right? So, you know, I think that's something that certainly aspired to make a movie that's 16 years later.
00:47:08
Speaker
talking about it. But you know, Currasel used to have a quote about, someone asked him why he made movies. And he was like, if I make movies for one reason, it's to pose the question, why can't people be happier?
Reflections on Filmmaking Philosophy
00:47:24
Speaker
And that's not necessarily exactly my question. But you know, I think that points out what I'm hoping to do with films I make.
00:47:32
Speaker
is to, you know, ultimately, I think film has a lot of power. I think film has the power to, you know, obviously, it can entertain people, we know that. Obviously, it can thrill people, it can scare them, it can make them laugh, it can make them cry, it can do all of those things. And I love movies that do all those things. You know, I certainly sit out with American Murder to do a film that because, you know, complaints I've had of some, not even necessarily true crime films, but crime films in general, a lot of them are very, very overly serious.
00:47:58
Speaker
and very overly disturbing and sad and just not fun to watch at all. And I think life's not like that. You know, life is crazy, life is unpredictable, life is funny, life is tragic, life is, you know, sometimes things are sexy, sometimes things are not, you know, there's all this stuff in it. And I really wanted the movie to capture that. And so that's what I'd like to do. You know, I'd like to pursue truth in my work. I'd like to make characters that feel real, people and
00:48:29
Speaker
you know, excite them and compel them and maybe they don't like them. Maybe they don't, you know, understand them. Maybe they don't, you know, get them at first, but I'd like to, you know, really shine a light on, you know, the light and the dark of humanity and examine all of it. So I'm really looking to examine the human condition as we see it, as we live and, you know, entertain people and take them on exciting journeys and adventures through
00:48:59
Speaker
you know, people and taking you through the eyes of people you might not normally get to, you know, how many, you know, none of us have probably seen the world of Jason Terry Brown's eyes, but maybe a movie can show you what that looks like. You know, I think it was Stephen King, obviously, you know, King of Horror. And he said something about, you know, what draws us to the darkness is that, you know, we all have our own crocodiles in our head and they're waiting to be fed. And there's something to be said. There's something that draws us to
00:49:28
Speaker
you know, both those happy, joyous films, but also to that dark side. Yeah. And I love it all. I love lighthearted movies. I often watch them to relax when I'm making really dark movies like this. But you know, yeah, exactly. I think film, literature, all art, really. And you know, what you guys do a true crime podcast, you're examining human behavior, kind of doing the same thing. So I think yeah, I think film is tremendous power. And it's a fascinating medium. And, you know,
00:49:59
Speaker
I am glad that I get to do it. So yeah, I want to really explore a lot of horizons. I have a lot of true crime films planned after this. I love the genre and a lot of exciting stories I want to tell in that space. But hopefully I get to lead behind a legacy of films that are a body of work that people can look at and say those are some good films there. Those are some interesting movies there. Hopefully you have some great movies there.
00:50:27
Speaker
I think just keep getting better at it. Not striving for perfection, but striving to be better. That's something I keep working on with myself.
Conclusion and Film Release Info
00:50:36
Speaker
And now I'll stop using you guys as my therapist. Yeah, okay. We do that with each other every week. We do. That's right. That's right.
00:50:46
Speaker
Thank you so much, Matthew, for being with us this evening for an interview. And listeners, make sure you check out Matthew Gentile's film, American Murderer. I'm telling you, if his first film is this strong, I can only envision a long and illustrious career in the industry. And to close, Matthew, would you please tell everyone when and where they can watch American Murderer?
00:51:11
Speaker
First off, before I do that, just thank you guys so much. Really. I mean, so much to say that and to hear that you respond to it because I made it for folks like you who love this kind of stuff, so thank you. Friends of the podcast, you can see American Murderer October 21st in select theaters. And October 28th, it will still be in theaters. It'll also be on digital and demand. So you can rent it on any transactional video on demand platform, be it iTunes Store, Amazon,
00:51:40
Speaker
PlayStation, Roku, any of them, anywhere you rent a movie, cable, any transactional video on demand platform, you'll be able to rent the movie. Please rent it and if you like it, rate it and tell other people to see it. Thank you guys so much. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.