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Creating Inclusive Spaces for LGBTQIA+ in STEM
3.3k Plays4 months ago
In this episode Autumn is joined by Erika Lynn Dawson Head, the Executive Director of Diversity and Inclusive Community Development for the Manning College of Information and Computer Sciences, discusses her role in STEM, mentorship, and community building. The conversation dives into allyship, LGBTQ+ support, and the challenges of creating safe and inclusive spaces in STEM and higher education. The discussion also explores the intersectionality of identities and the importance of recognizing and addressing biases in professional and educational environments. The conversation covers a range of topics related to diversity, inclusion, and the challenges faced by marginalized communities. It delves into the importance of creating safe spaces, addressing biases, and the need for education and awareness. The discussion also explores the concept of calling people in, the impact of cultural shifts in professional settings, and the significance of building a diverse network of support. Here we cover the importance of role models and support for LGBTQIA+ individuals in STEM fields, the impact of coming out, the need for inclusive spaces, and the significance of kindness and understanding in navigating difficult conversations.
Keywords: diversity, equity, inclusion, STEM, mentorship, LGBTQ+, allyship, safe spaces, intersectionality, biases, professional conduct, higher education, diversity, inclusion, safe spaces, biases, education, awareness, calling people in, cultural shifts, professional settings, network of support, LGBTQIA+, role models, STEM, coming out, inclusive spaces, kindness, understanding, difficult conversations
You can connect with Erika for more opportunities and speaking engagements on LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to Breaking Math, the podcast where we break down complex mathematical concepts and bring them to life in ways that are engaging and accessible to everyone. I'm your host, Autumn Feneff. In this episode, I'm chatting with Erica Lynn Dawsonhead, the executive director of Diversity and Inclusive Community Development for the Manning College of Information and Computer Sciences. And if that isn't a long enough title, she's also the director of the Massenberg STEM Institute at UMass Amherst.
Pride Month Focus: Diversity in STEM
00:00:34
Speaker
In this special episode for Pride Month, we're diving into topics at the intersection of mathematics, STEM as a whole, alongside diversity, equity, and inclusion.
00:00:46
Speaker
Math is a universal language, but it hasn't always been a universally inclusive space.
Challenges for LGBTQ+ in STEM
00:00:53
Speaker
This month, we're highlighting and exploring the challenges that LGBTQ and underrepresented groups face and discussing how we can create a more equitable environment in the world of STEM and beyond. So whether you're a STEM enthusiast, a student, a professional, or just someone interested in the intersections of identity and academia, join us as we explore these important topics and work towards making a space where everyone can
Upcoming Episodes and Participation Invitation
00:01:27
Speaker
thrive. Now, a couple of quick announcements before we jump into this episode. At Breaking Math, we have a big surprise for you for episode 101. We really can't wait to tell you about it.
00:01:40
Speaker
But until next week, you can support us by signing up for our Patreon at patreon dot.com forward slash breaking math. And we've uploaded almost all of our episodes to YouTube. So go check that out there if you're interested. We do have a few videos as well. Also, we do have a call for anyone who's a mathematician, scientist, or engineer who may want to talk about their work. So feel free to email us at breakingmathpodcast at gmail dot.com or fill out the link in the show notes below. Now join us on this episode of Breaking Math where we get to learn more about diversity, equity, and inclusion. But first, a message from our sponsors.
Community Building and Mentorship
00:02:42
Speaker
Hi Erica, how are you doing today? Great, how about yourself? Pretty good. tell Tell the viewers a little bit about yourself and your role in diversity, equity, and inclusion. Just to tell you a little bit about what I do, um some of the things that I work on is community building. ah helping to resolve issues and helping to build a tighter knit community for our college. I work one on one with students. I do a lot of mentorship. I create student organizations. I helps create student organizations.
00:03:22
Speaker
And I also run the Massaburg-Stem Institute, which where i in involve where it involves curriculum design and working with students in the ninth grade going into the 10th grade. They actually get to come onto our campus and be involved in a college-like experience. And we also bring their families on campus so that we're engaging entire families and hoping to change lives and to give these students and families an opportunity to learn about STEM careers and STEM offers in STEM.
00:04:09
Speaker
In addition, I also have created numerous programs for the institution, and I have designed numerous programs for the institution, UMass Amherst. And um I am also someone that mentors professional in our space to help them to overcome obstacles and barriers. I know that firsthand. but
00:04:37
Speaker
ah all We all that, somebody. And for anyone listening, just to let you know, Erica is probably one of the best people that I've though that i've met. oh god ah we just Just a little bit behind the scenes, we met probably about seven years ago. A parking lot? Yeah. As we were both running late to a meeting with a music player. I think so. I think it was. I have to say that. but I'll say everybody is on time for us for meetings. We're never late. And it has been a beautiful friendship over the years. Absolutely. Absolutely. so What happened when your person in demand?
Policy and Curriculum Changes
00:05:27
Speaker
Constantly. yeah Constantly in demand is, wait, hold on. Never in sometimes. Yes.
00:05:38
Speaker
if you're constantly running from one place to the other. Yup, one thing from the next.
00:05:47
Speaker
um I'm engaged in a lot of different conversations with our institution when it comes to creating some of the policies and curriculum changes. I'm with the College of Information and Computer Sciences, but that also gives me a platform where I can contribute to greater discussions And I've also been involved in a number of grants for our institution. And in addition, I also have been speakers at some national, amazing organizational events and um conferences. Most recently I was speaking, I actually led a workshop at NCWIT, the NCWIT conference. and um
00:06:30
Speaker
in Kansas City, Missouri. Oh my goodness. You are always on the go. ah When do you have time to stop? um You know, I figure I'll have a chance to stop one day. I don't not ready yet. so I actually love I love engaging with other people. I love learning about other cultures. I love being in other spaces and and i I get so excited when I get an opportunity to help educate and to help change the world. So it kind of fuels me. Speaking of changing the world and all the all of the awesome stuff that you've done. I know that we've worked on one or two like smaller grants and projects together
Supporting Colleagues and Personal Connection
00:07:14
Speaker
in the past. a Big thing that we have, it's pride month.
00:07:18
Speaker
How do you support LGBTQ, AI, and underrepresented colleagues? It's a hot topic.
00:07:28
Speaker
It's ah something that, you know, STEM, engineering, computer science, math, sometimes we're the only, we are the only women in the room sometimes.
00:07:44
Speaker
And I know that this is always a question that comes back, bounces back to me. How do you define allyship and its significance in STEM fields or just working with people for allyship in general? By the way, happy pride. I celebrate. Happy pride. I love it. it's it's It's everything. I have the best time. It's one of my happy times of the year. Yes, um the colors are are amazing. The people are great are even better than the colors. And um I enjoy all of the the community building around Pride Month.
00:08:25
Speaker
um My son, just to be able to tell you a little bit about who I am as a human, um I am the mom of an openly gay son, um who is also a drag queen. So I spend a lot of time in drag environment. this and What does that mean? There's a gamut, right? There's the spaces you might find me in a nightclub somewhere watching a performance. I might find me in a small but community theater um watching a performance. Drag art um is real. There are a lot of phenomenal drag performers, and um a lot of them call me mama. I don't know why. I just don't. Because you call me that, but that's what they call me. You are. You're like the bigs. You're like the aunt. I am. Or the mom that everybody needs. I am.
00:09:21
Speaker
for so many people that just don't have one, but or need the extra support. Right. And and that's, and believe it or not, I love it. It's one of the biggest badges I have. So maybe I'll have to put that on my tombstone one day, aka mama somewhere. Um, that and so I get to have a lot of fun and go into these spaces and, and to, to love and to build community. I also am on the board of an organization called QFlip. And the organization so is, it's in Connecticut and it supports trans youth, but it supports youth in general, LGBTQIA.
00:10:01
Speaker
Um, and I also was a volunteer for true colors conference for ah probably 7 or 8 years. Um, so I've been very involved and I also say a keep saying, I was also I also. Um, I was pride president at central Connecticut state University at 1 point in time. And I worked at one point in time for this is not totally related, but it is kind of related. I was a teacher's assistant in the math department for about five or six years. And I actually helped to teach students that have special needs, not like we all don't have special needs, but these were students that needed a little bit more time and a little bit more support to be able to
00:10:45
Speaker
see to accelerate in their math classes, ah the beginning Math 99 and Math 101 classes. So I'm very involved when it comes to DEI. And as a disclaimer, as we get deeper into this conversation, I think it's also very important to understand that I am a mom of a son that is also that is autistic. And so I understand those struggle when you're engaging with school systems and you're engaging with
00:11:16
Speaker
um
00:11:19
Speaker
How can I say difficult circumstances and trying to navigate um what my son needs and what school school districts are willing to give and and navigating those conversations so um just to get back to what we were talking about. yeah so much There is a lot with that because, you know, we we think of like, everything is, it's the conversation, but it's also, who are you as a person? And it doesn't matter who you are, what your background is, it's essentially
00:11:57
Speaker
bringing my ship and being compassionate to people, just being a decent human. My gosh, if we could like make a t-shirt, just be a decent human. That's like, we're not even looking for really good humans. We We can, yeah. We're not going to coin the term. We can have this in our merch store. There we go. that's That's what we did. We created this. This is our business. it's It's the new business. And when we talk about women in STEM, you that was a great lead in. ah yeah Exactly. It's like, here's here's the thing. It's like, why is it so crucial to just just talk about this? ah But it's very difficult. I think the navigation the issues happen. I mean, we start right, you know,
00:12:45
Speaker
Whenever students go to school and they're not doing well, they're always saying, oh, it must be the home life. It can't be anything else. It's not just the home life. Yeah. um But I don't think it's just the home life, right? It's the TV. It's the environments. It's all of the resources that they have availability to, the people in their lives. I mean, there's so many things that contribute to it. um So when we talk about people and engaging in these them environments and um how difficult it can be and how important it is. I think that was the question more. it's How important is it, right? They have allies and they have mentors. Or just to be a good ally. It's so important. It's the difference between success and failure for so many students. and it's the It's the plus one, right? Yeah. um It helps them to be able to get over that hump and to be able to navigate something that might be very foreign to them.
00:13:39
Speaker
And in these environments, because these environments were not designed for and let me just put it clearly these environments were not designed for women and other people from marginalized identities to be in school and to be in these spaces. These environments were originally designed um for white men. um It was not designed in the beginning when they thought of these colleges and universities to be a space where we were included. So it's very different and it's very difficult to change these environments into what we need. And it's it's more of not just what we need, it's how do we create that, right? So when
00:14:26
Speaker
We get the questions of how do I create that safe space? Whether it's in the lab or an office environment. What are the things that are crucial? Even something as simple as I am a parent of an LGBTQ student or my partners, you know, friends are all LGBTQ identifying. How do I create that safe space, even though there might be areas of discomfort, right? How do I make those changes to just be able to make someone feel safe and secure? How would, how would you like navigate that situation?
00:15:13
Speaker
So just starting off, I kind of made it a comment and and said that the universities were not created for people like us. yeah um If anybody has any questions or wanted to learn more about this, there is a book called Ebony in Ivy. And I think that if you look into that book, I think it was written by Craig Steven Wilder. If you look up that book, if you just look up the title, um you'll see it and you'll be able to check out um some of the history of higher education and how it came to be what it is um in general.
00:15:54
Speaker
Something that I think that's very necessary when we talk about creating safe spaces, it depends. There are all different um aspects that we're looking at, identities, intersectionalities that make up who we are, that we have to think about when we think about safer spaces, right? Right. um Number one, I'm never going to have, I'm never going to be able to say that this is a safe space because any space, um it it depends on the weather, it depends on who's in it. Yeah. and We know that. yeah so um It depends on the build of the of this place right. ah One thing we can say though maybe is a space that's more welcoming or inclusive um that you feel supported. and and And the things that we can do to to make that this place is better.
00:16:41
Speaker
They're the small things like making sure that you're aware of the biases that you walk into the room. Checking yourself, myself, I have biases. I walk into a room, I know to check myself. I know that I am 100% extrovert. I mean, honestly, if there was a- I didn't know that. Oh my God. I didn't know that. I want to blow the scale apart. And, but it's because I've had to hide it. I have to hide it sometimes, right? And I get into environments, even it's difficult. It's even difficult when you interview or when you're, when you're in a job interview, when you're in a ah conversation with some people, it can be really difficult. Exactly. They engaged and that they connected if you're that 100% extrovert.
00:17:29
Speaker
and to make sure that I'm not um running over other people in my space, right? And that's the thing, I could take up a lot of space.
Intersectionality and Inclusivity in Education
00:17:38
Speaker
So for me, that's something that I need to be cognizant of because it can create an unwelcoming environment for the people that I'm engaging with. exactly and like And we all have those things, right? So that's not even talking about the difficult things to talk about like race and what I bring with me because of my race. What I bring with me because of my nationality, where I came from. my Am I from ah Denmark? Am I from China? Am I from ah South Africa? Am I from the United States of America? We all have our things.
00:18:14
Speaker
that we bring with us that are embedded in us by being a part of these communities that we live and belong to. It's about making sure that we're looking at all these intersectionalities and being very aware. um Something that I think is very important to mention um that really gets confused in a lot of different environments is that there are many times when I have heard people say, get XYZ faculty member from They're from, I'll just make it up. I'm making up a place. They're from South Africa. They understand the plight of black and brown students. And I always laugh. I laugh so much because black and brown students in the United States particularly have a
00:19:03
Speaker
vast experiences. They have very vast experiences. Yeah. And it's very different than people traditionally and usually they are very different experiences than someone that has grown up. in another country, right? Whether it be South Africa or whether it be India. If you grew up in these countries, you have a different understanding and way of life than the people that have grown up in the United States where we have a history of white supremacy ah that that has white supremacy. We have a history of
00:19:39
Speaker
people that have been enslaved. um We have this history that is very different um than others. ah We have a history of taking land and so many other things, not saying that those things are not found in other cultures, but I'm just saying that our history is very different and the American USA experience is different. And I think that we need to recognize that when we're putting people in spaces, right, to represent but precisely. Right. Oh, with that, like, I just, I'll throw out even like a cultural difference. Right. So for example, you know, UMass is very diverse. It has a lot of international and immigrant students.
00:20:26
Speaker
However, if you shift it 15 miles, I worked at a community college, right? 20 miles from UMass, it's a Hispanic serving institution. It's an HSI. So many of the students in that population in comparison to UMass, you know, it's a different life culture. It's a different everything. The students are working two jobs after school, you know, to class. And there's a very large deaf population as well. Wow. So when you're learning sign language to teach math, you know.
00:21:06
Speaker
It's different. It's very different. and but they paint it But it's been painted with the same color brush. Not a rainbow, right? like we're not it's It's not a rainbow. Yeah. It's not. And when your LGBTQIA and all these other identities added on it, um my son always, he always makes me laugh because he always says, um I'm very different than the white gaze. And I'm like, what are you talking about at Maximilian? What are you talking about? And it was about being it says that he says it's very different mom when you are black in part of the LGBTQIA community and you are white in part of the LGBTQIA community. And I actually I get to see through his eyes a lot of times these experiences and um I've seen it where even
00:21:54
Speaker
You know, if we if we talk about LGBTQ history, and we talk about the Stonewall, right? Yeah, with the nightclub, right? A lot of things um in the LGBTQ community focused around and centered around ah nightlife. community building in these clubs. of course And for my son, and and even when I have been in ah some of these clubs, um in the towns and communities that I live in, um it is not such a welcoming and environment for people like me and my son in those environments.
00:22:30
Speaker
And so I seen the differences, the way people treated each other. And it's sometimes very troubling because you would hope that people would be able to be decent, right? Isn't that the key word? But then sometimes it calls for more, right? It always calls for more. It does, right? It does. It calls for more. But look, I'm looking for basics here. I'll be inspired with baseline. but but You're right. You're right. There is no excuse. There is no excuse.
00:23:07
Speaker
Like I can say that because I look white presenting. Yeah. Yeah. You do. You do. Even though I'm not. You do. You do.
00:23:22
Speaker
But but it's it's knowing that you know in the community that I was growing up in, I'm not able to present myself the way that I want. Absolutely. you know There's privilege in being able to be who you are in spaces. and There is a lot of privilege. As a Black woman in higher education, I do not have that privilege. And as ah and my son, has experienced and said to me many times that he does not have that experience. And I will speak for him because he has said that many times. ah I know that. Heather, I'm working as a business person or even as a professor for folks who don't know me, don't see me behind the scenes for camera. Like I am covered also in tattoos.
00:24:14
Speaker
So not for pa i I am that person that is queer identifying. I i am white passing. You are. You are. And that's hard. That's very hard because you get to you net you're like a day walker in the movies, right? You get to go in both spaces. And it's also like, I don't feel that I have that same privilege to work in those offices or spaces at the same time as I know that culturally I do. um And I don't like to take up that space, but at the same time, it affords me the opportunity to actually say what the actual. Use your powers for good. Yeah.
00:25:04
Speaker
And that that's why I do the work that I do and the platforms that I'm on. Yeah, I definitely see that. It's very difficult. It's gotta be very difficult to navigate both worlds. It's hard. you do i i get it You get a little privilege, right? Because people don't know who you are until they know who you are. um You don't have it. It's not written on your face that you are a part of a marginalized identity, but it is that you are a woman. That's very obvious. But um other pieces, like a person of color, it's not written on your face. It's not. So it is a good, I mean, not a good thing. it is It's a good thing and a bad thing. it's very It has its pluses and its negatives.
00:25:46
Speaker
because in this community and in in this world that we live in, there are a lot of decisions that are made about us and opportunities and not even opportunities, just basic human resources. um For example, there are so many different ways that um we could talk about this, but we could talk about health outcome when we talk about black and brown people. Absolutely. ah We could talk about um health outcomes when it comes to LGBTQIA plus people. And we could talk about opportunities to engage ah success to schools, school, when you go to school, um when you're taking your SAT, what language and what what version of English is being used.
00:26:32
Speaker
right yeah so Is it the English that's spoken in your household or is it the English that's spoken in a different groups household? And they are different. They're very different. There are innuendos and different pieces and I probably shouldn't tell the secrets, but there are different words that are used in um the household that I grew up in as a black woman. that um the broader community might not use broader white community, I will say, not broader community, because the broader community that I was in, they used them. But some people from white communities, white racial communities may not use these words. So it's very interesting how this ah structure is created. Exactly. And it's just, think of
00:27:24
Speaker
When we're integrating these issues, whether it's ethics or professional conduct with like our training, right? And we're working with other professionals because we're coming with everything from race, gender, microaggressions. Oh, those are there. It's all there. It's so there. I love i mean i will that they have terminology now for it. We've never had these these like terminologies that the Karen and the kids and all of these terminologies people use to actually verbalize.
00:28:02
Speaker
Um, when they feel like they're being under attack from people, right? So it might not look like the old race. It might not look ah like the racism of 1953, but it's still, it's still feels like it. It is still there. It is on campuses. It is on, you know, in organizations.
00:28:30
Speaker
And it's more than just holding a diversity panel. You know, but qui now is the fixes at every single training.
Critique of Superficial Diversity Efforts
00:28:43
Speaker
It's like, you need to have friends. You need to make spaces inclusive with people and it's just treating people like they're people. ah Robin DiAngelo in the book, White Fragility, coined the term. And I love the term that she coined. She says um it was she has white fragility, but there's also a called a term that's called um celebrate diversity. It's like a whole phrase. And it's the people that only want to celebrate diversity. They don't want to talk about it in a greater sense. But we could have a party and eat the food from the culture.
00:29:24
Speaker
And that's going to make us less racist and give us the knowledge that we need to be more engaging in these spaces. And it happens all the time. um Somebody will say, hey, let's have a potluck to celebrate. um all of different cultures and and am I downing a celebration of cultures? I love good food. I love a good celebration. I'm not downing it, but I think that it needs to stay at its place for what it is. It's me eating the food. It does not make me less racist against the community or people. And that's that's where it needs to be understood. It is not an intervention. It's not.
00:30:04
Speaker
It is not. ah Stop racism or homophobia. Yeah, I guess you could say it is because it does bring people together to eat together. But if you bring them together as to eat together, you got to help people to be able to engage with each other. That's the key is that, you know, the surface level. let's just all I mean, I never seen a sign on the outside of the door that says KKK is not welcome to eat. um at Chinese food. I don't eat Chinese food. I mean, i I don't think that's in the handbook, but I don't know. I've never been a KKK member or a white supremacist member. I've never belonged to these organizations.
00:30:43
Speaker
But I think that I'm saying that to be silly and to give you a little bit of outlook thing, this doesn't make sense that if I just eat the food, I'm going to be okay. Like I eat Italian food all the time. It doesn't mean that I don't have biases against people that might be from Italy. And I precise i try my best to not have those things. But I'm just saying that, for example, um I think that there needs to be, and and and Robin Angelo really talks about this in her book, White Fragility, um about proximity, how close you are to other people. um I can't be racist. This is one of the examples in the book. and I better stop talking about this book. Everybody's going to buy it or look at it. and
00:31:24
Speaker
Um, I think you should, it's a great book. I enjoyed it. Um, but I think that it's a book that you're going to have things that you don't agree with. You're going to have things that you agree with, and then you're going to need to read it again later on and go back and say, is this, do I agree or don't agree at this stage in my life? Right. But that is also like i love it teaching in, right. it is and quality pal It's calling people in and you have to look and be aware of. the The issues that you don't think about are issues that you already bring to the table. Absolutely. um It's really important to call people in. It's really important to to actually think about these things before before it the bad things happen, misgendering. Misgendering people, is it's it's bad. It's it's bad, right? we we all want to
00:32:18
Speaker
Call people the right gender. So sometimes it might put you in an uncomfortable space. That's thing You know, it's great to meet you and I just love to know what your gender what what your gender pronouns are because I want to be respectful and To be able to stop a conversation and say that is something that takes courage, but it's something that people um that may not be from a the the the binary of he or she um genders might really appreciate and some people from the binary genders are going to appreciate it because it shows that you're trying to be inclusive of all genders. um It's one way that you can make these spaces better for people. ah Another so way that you can create safe spaces is by making and I think that a lot of the thing is is that people think oh if
00:33:10
Speaker
You know, I just do this one thing in the room. um It's just going to make it a safe space and we're going to be okay. Put a sticker on the door. I took safe spaces. I always laugh because they always, in all these institutions, they always offer these safe space trainings, right? You're supposed to go to the training. I've been through them. You've been through them. We've facilitated them. I mean. picker I mean when I look at the makeup of these these things literally we're going to we're going to people we're giving them one hour to talk about whether it be LGBTQIA plus lives and how to engage better with LGBTQIA people then I tell you I give you a little sticker if you give you the sticker for reward and And I say, oh, you can put this day to space sticker outside your door that says that you're a safe space because now you went to the training that took one hour to learn. Do you think that you learned the bad habits in an hour? It took much longer than that to get those down. Why would it be fixed in one hour? It's not fixed. It's not fixed.
00:34:21
Speaker
They could make you go to the training, but does that mean anything at the end of the day? Absolutely not. In my heart of hearts, I always wanted to, whenever I see the little safe space stickers, it's always been my dream to put on safe space, maybe put safe space like a question mark or something. Because it's it needs to be like question mark, because some are. And some people genuinely have always have already started on the work. and have done a lot of work before then to get to that point. But then there are some people that say, I don't have any problems. I get along well with everybody in my circle. This has never been a problem for me. But then they don't realize, I mean, they look at your circle. I might look at your circle and say, where are the Latin people in your circle? Where's the la Latin people in your circle? Where's the Asian people in your circle?
00:35:12
Speaker
all of my besties. Where are the transgender people in your circle? Where are the white people? What does your circle look like? Right? Yeah. And I think if you're doing the work, you want to have a broad enough as possible circle, because believe it or not, you don't realize the amount of knowledge and love and and um joy I get from having such a broad, rich, and diverse circle. And the support that I get from my circle is really large. You don't realize that until, so growing up in a community that was predominantly white, predominantly this gender, predominantly of one religion, you know?
00:36:08
Speaker
You don't realize how much you need to expand as a person and and how you can grow. And a lot of the times, you know, thinking back for me, even as going on that journey, but until you go out in the world and make friends with other people, you realize how rich life is. and how expansive things can be over time, right? Absolutely. And it's learning to be more than someone just in your niche. Absolutely. That's real growth. And instead of just having that one little sticker you know on your door. Base space. Yeah, yeah having that having that safe space sticker.
00:37:05
Speaker
and where are you showing up?
00:37:11
Speaker
And how are you treating the other people? Absolutely. You know, I've had colleagues, and ah some that some that we know really well. And it's like, I didn't realize until a colleague said, she said to me, my wife, I want you could knock me over with a feather. You know, but you know, you don't realize who somebody is until they openly out themselves. When you're part of the LGBTQ community, a lot of people, sometimes you do if you know, it's Sometimes you might be able to sort of get clues, but a lot of times it's something that is a little bit different. yep some sometimes Sometimes depending on what letter you are in the alphabet, right? The LGBTQIA might be more visible, but there are some things that are not. And I think that's in comparison to other people from marginalized identities.
00:38:10
Speaker
I think it's something precisely. I think it's also, um, when we're talking about it, I don't know why I was thinking about calling response because a lot of conversation is a call and response almost. You don't say something. I say something back. It's like the most comfortable thing in the world for me as a Black woman because I've been raised in the church and I've been raised in Black culture where calling response is the way that we talk, ah many the way that I have talked as a Black woman. Other people talk differently, but...
00:38:43
Speaker
me and a lot of my family have talked in this way. And it's a constant banter. You say something, I say something, I might say, oh yeah, and cheer you on and you keep going and I keep going. And it's this constant volley of conversation. It was very difficult when I started working in an academic environment, because it is that is the way that I have been taught to talk in that in those manners.
Cultural Norms and Communication
00:39:07
Speaker
um When I walked into an academic environment, um it was a lot different to talk. um Talking was so different. it was I had to stop, do not say anything, try to be as much silent as possible, and then try to respond and figure out when that person
00:39:28
Speaker
had ended, totally. um Because if not, it was it was felt it was almost felt as if I was talking over that person. are not acknowledging that person in the space. And I think like little cultural norms like that, you need to notice, you need to understand who people are and what they bring with them. Because just like you want them to adhere to your cultural norms and values, that there's some place that you have to meet them with their cultural norms and values. And having
00:40:05
Speaker
having that huge culture shift into academia, into professional life, you know, people of underrepresented groups of the LGBTQ community have to be able to pretend that, you know, you pull that stona in, you know. I feel like that's like a Wonder Twins activate thing, right?
00:40:33
Speaker
match hands yeah like
00:40:40
Speaker
You have to be able to, you know, yeah hold in all those extra comments. Yeah, it's like an explosion. It's more a most unnerving thing. It is. and shit
00:40:57
Speaker
you know You're sitting there and you're going, what? You go, what did somebody just say in the middle of this thing? Why is this the culture of where it's supposed to be? And it creates usually a lot of microaggressions. It's hard. It's hard. um It is difficult. It's very difficult. And it and it just really
00:41:27
Speaker
We want to be able to have that call in culture and inclusive behavior in professional settings. But it's who? Who is included in who is getting called in? That's the question. And they as people who have that position of power, whether it's a director of diversity, Whether it's me as a science communicator, I do work with other very large named science communicators as well. And why some of these people have the following is because they are real people. Yeah, I believe it. And it's starting to change the narrative with brands, with organizations, with who we are and
00:42:19
Speaker
It's a tiny incremental steps for change. Absolutely. But I think that most movements have been tiny incremental steps. Taking large leaps has never been our thing. It's never. The biggest leap I've seen in my lifetime has been gay marriage, LGBTQIA marriage, and making it so that people have a right to get married and to love each other in that sense. Absolutely. And to be recognized by our government.
00:42:54
Speaker
as married people.
Achievements in LGBTQ+ Rights
00:42:56
Speaker
I think that's been the largest leap I've seen. But that wasn't a large leap. That was a lot of people fighting over a number of years to get that passed. It was not anything new. It was a fight that has has gone on. and And I think when we talk about, and we're talking about this month, we're talking about LGBTQIA+. I think it's really important that we um make sure that and this is something that's very difficult to do um is to To really draw clear lines with the untouchable
00:43:35
Speaker
There are people in your environment that you look at and you're like, don't go see my uncle, don't go see my cousin. We know that they're untouchable. You just shouldn't, you should not go see them because you just imagine everything is like, you know that in their heart of hearts, they're really great people. But when they open their mouth, my goodness, you're like, no, are you really that great human that I love? It's just it's this contradiction within itself. Right. Exactly. Exactly. How do we fight? Like, how you know, I think that us recognizing that these people like exist and and and now is the time when we need to start helping to educate them and bring them on board.
00:44:19
Speaker
um To help them to understand it and and some people are never gonna I'm serious I don't have hope for all and I should probably but I don't I know it's real that not everyone it's gonna Respond so well. It's a realization It's a realization and the thing is it's like how do you educate? Is it like tiny little uh I'll use the term pebbling. You know, like you're a penguin that gives somebody a little pebble and you're like, here i um like that you know, and it's, it's how do you have those conversations? Yeah. And I think that it depends, right? A lot of times humor is used. I know humor is humor a lot of times.
00:45:12
Speaker
um just this an I always love Mary Poppins, just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, right? And when you think about it in that way, I try to put a spoonful of sugar in it, right? Yeah. Even though I'm a diabetic and I got to watch the sugar, I still i try to put the spoonful of sugar in it. We got our sugar-free monster here. ah You know, yeah we can use Stevia. There you go, right? Stevia. ah god But needless to say, you do, you got to sweeten it up a bit. um ah Sometimes whenever I hear something that's off-putting or something, I'll say, come on, I know you don't mean that. And then some people will go full throttle. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. And that's when you say, OK. And you try to think of situations that they've been in that can disprove whatever it is that they're saying. and And then you get them to a point where they're agreeing so that then they will move with you into the other space.
00:46:12
Speaker
I usually will help to bring out some questions that I know the answer to, they know the answer to, but it helps to move them to where I need them to be.
Strategies for Change and Dialogue
00:46:25
Speaker
And a great example of this would be if someone says, I don't i don't like i don't like black people. I don't like black people. If somebody says, I don't like black people, ah I never see them working. I never see black people working. They've got to be lazy. That was one of the stereotypes um that's been passed around by black, about black and brown people. um The way that I would disclaim, I would go after that conversation and that comment would be is I would say, you didn't mean that with ah that. I didn't like black people in that way. What do you mean by that? I don't understand it. And they might say, oh, they don't work. They're very lazy. And I'll say, well, me and you work together and I'm a black and brown person.
00:47:09
Speaker
Am I not black or brown? Oh, well you're different. I said, well, let me just ask you a question. I know that there were enslaved people in the United States. What did they look like? And did you think that was work? And then it kind of will help them to see the hysterical, the historical narrative um of what I'm saying is that, you know, it's very difficult to combat it when you actually start um digging deeper and deeper into it, because you cannot this of you cannot say that people that were enslaved did not work, right? That's just not a no. Exactly.
00:47:47
Speaker
And they were particularly black and brown people. So it makes whatever you said a lie. And especially if we work together, so you're going to know that I'm a black and brown person and I work. So that is not a true narrative. And I think that by calling people out in a nice way and trying to call them out and in in at this time at the same time, it's so, so, so important. Yeah. So important. And it's more of like having that teach in opportunity of. Exactly. Taking something that, you know, that they know is an obvious fact and boiling it down to, Hey, have, what about this, right? What about whatever the, and you know, it's.
00:48:46
Speaker
It's really something that you kind of have to take as a cultural shift. And just knowing you, you are one of the hardest working people that I have ever met. I feel like I don't leave this place even when I do leave it. Honestly, I think I came out one night and I was walking through the computer science building and it was what, 1130? And I was like, what are you doing here? oh god And I walked by your office for, I don't know whatever reason. and yeah her was open i'm like
00:49:25
Speaker
why why all here a lot um honestly they work they get all their money out of me they need to give you a raise they you that louder um Let's say that louder. Attention. Attention. Erica needs a raise. Yeah. And a promotion. Yeah. Thank you. And also an honorary PhD. So let's get those three things right, right now. Let's speak it into the universe. And that is recorded. and I'm keeping this in here. I love that. that Love a UMass alum. I love that.
00:50:07
Speaker
When we talk about like calling in culture or calling out culture, um, there's a professor, her name is Dr. Loretta Ross. Um, and I've heard of she is, I think she's, if I'm not mistaken, I think she's at Smith college currently. And I think that it's really important to remember with the calling out culture that i for me personally, I think it's better. Um, in the way that I engage in these conversations is to call people in. And I might call you out personally, like me and you quietly together. Yeah. Hey, what are you talking about? Why do you want to say that? um I don't think, I don't believe personally that um if if someone does a crime against me that I need to do a crime against them. It's just my own personal belief system.
00:51:01
Speaker
Um, other people have other belief systems, but that's not the way I operate in my life. Um, precise the keep building my community and building my network. And, and I think that for people from marginalized identities, it's very important to have a director's table. I've heard it called, um, a director's table will have all of the different people that contribute to your life and help you in those directions. Uh, you're going to need different people at different times in your life. And it's Michael. It's really about building a powerful network for yourself to make sure that, you know, people have your CEO sometimes or you're president of something, you have like a board of directors.
Diverse Networks and Mentorship
00:51:48
Speaker
There you go. Board of directors. Absolutely. So essentially you need to have that as a professional ah to be able to grow.
00:51:59
Speaker
to be able to have that outreach and also have that mentorship from people who are doing things for years before you. Mentorship can take so many forms though. you know Right? And that can be sometimes as having a very polar opposite ah best friend. True. or very close friend of a different culture. And it's like, hey, I need a sounding wall for this project. I'm doing something. And then they could say, hey, Autumn, why are you doing it this way? ah Right? And you think it's a good idea. But they're like, please go get another opinion. And having that board of directors um as a professional sometimes, you know,
00:52:51
Speaker
being able to have a teach-in call-in experience, it really makes the difference for who you are as a person, who you are as a professional. Yes, it does. It is all about the call-in experience. And it really starts to change that for people, especially if you are a professor, if you're a supervisor, if you're managing groups of people. and You know, it's kind of sometimes that hard pill to swallow of, am I doing good? sure And it's really having that, like having a supportive colleague outside of your, just your regular job. Absolutely. Everyone can have one. And being able to pick up the phone, like me saying, Hey, Erica, I need a new board of directors member for something.
00:53:47
Speaker
exactly exactly You have to be able to navigate changes and and modify. ye and And I think that when we're engaging in conversations for the first students in these spaces, um I think it's really important that we, we build networks for them. Some of the times that right a great support system can also be um an LGBTQIA plus organization or club that's created to support students in that space. Or it could be um education and
00:54:22
Speaker
i you know I get to a point where everybody gets the education, but how many times do you need to be educated not to do something to not do it, right? And I get it. We all do things over and over again. How long did it take us to learn a bad habit? It took us a very long time. Sometimes it usually does, um but it's very it's very rewarding for our community when we're able to look at it and change our behaviors so that we are better for our community. Changing the behaviors to impact BTQ underrepresented people and in STEM fields as a whole, you know absolutely they need rule models.
00:55:08
Speaker
Absolutely. They'll be able to come out and say who you are. Yeah. This is who I am. This is who my partners are, who who i who I love. This is my family. um I'm very open about my son, and and I'm very open about both of my sons in my life um because I want people to understand that I'm a safe space that people can use as a resource. By understanding some of the experiences I had, It kind of gives you a guidebook of some of the things that I know how to engage in and that I have overcome barriers with this. Exactly. And it's essentially just, just being able to say it. And I work, and I work so hard on them and it's, it's sad because a lot of us work really hard, believe it or not. I'm the 2020 emerging leader of the chancellor's 2024 emerging leader for UMass Amherst's campus ah this year. And.
00:56:06
Speaker
I think, yay, I'll give myself the clap. Yay, right. what oh Because you make the change. You make the difference. And it's really over and above. you Yeah, you always have gone over and above for your job. Yeah. And it's being able to say, you know hey, yeah, i am I am the mama. I am. I am. They bought me a mug one time and said, mom, I'm like the college mama. It's true. ah the And so many people need that. I think I said on Twitter the other day, hi, ah you know, if you need a queer auntie, I'll be your queer auntie. True. And you know it's you look at this as not only do they need people need that support system,
00:57:03
Speaker
they need that like additional parent on whatever it is, it really starts to affect your mental health. And, you know, it's not some people don't talk about having that role model in science. oh But then there's, but then there's Erica, who was like, Hi, I'm here. I'm showing up. I'm here. And For so many of your colleagues, I mean, across the campus as a whole, in the broader community, being able to say, I am that person. And you can point out 50 other people who most people just don't usually have as like, identify closer to them than maybe to you, right? Exactly. But you're the person that that has that letter all around you.
00:58:04
Speaker
I like the way you said that. I love glitter. Oh, yes. I have the glitter, my friend. You have that extra Beyonce glitter effect. I love it, the glitter effect. Yeah, it's the glitter effect. I thought about it in coins, the glitter effect. And anybody who you know has that extra personality as an extrovert You are someone who is highlighted for your achievements and contributions. Why do we need to have those role models? ah We need those role models to help guide us, give us advisement, fit with us when we don't know what to do and help us think through how to get it done.
00:58:48
Speaker
how to overcome that barrier or hurdle. Exactly. We need our advisors to be able to navigate for us, to be able to give us recommendations for jobs. to be able to help us when we have our job offers, because we understand that women make a lot less women in the ah lot moment make ah women make a lot less money in the workplace than men in the workplace. So in order for us to shrink the equity gap, the equity gap must be shrunken. And and the only way we're gonna do that is by sharing information. And also historically,
00:59:30
Speaker
people who come out as LGBTQ, you know, interviews, whatever, behind the scenes, they also get that. And those are tough tells to swallow. And unless folks who have the platform to amplify it, app like these conversations, really shift that narrative and people are willing to talk about it. It doesn't change. You gotta have the conversation. It's having the conversation. If you don't have the conversation, you didn't even start it. Exactly. good You're done. You're done before you even start it. And, you know, having having a role model of that sorts
01:00:20
Speaker
really, really makes the difference in somebody's life to have that next generation of, you know, queer scientists, queer engineers. What is it, OSTEM? Yes, OSTEM is on our fingertips. We also have a LGBTQA organization for computer science departments. We have one for staff and we have one for student. Informs had one as well, I believe, but that's more on the national level. And some of the folks that were at UMass before or shifted over after graduating are now on the panel.
01:01:01
Speaker
My hope is that when parents hear this, when people that are in families hear this, which is all of us, when we all hear this, that you're able to hear yourself in me, that you're able to hear something about me, whether your background is the same as mine or different, that you're able to hear that I can love someone who is LGBTQIA and support them with all my my heart. um and that they they are very deserving of that love. One of the most hurtful things that I've seen in my academia career was I was working as a teacher's assistant and then there was a student that came in and they happened to be both person of color and LGBT. They were gay and they came out to their parent as gay.
01:01:51
Speaker
And they came back to school and just broke down in tears, broke down totally. it was It was an emotional moment for that student and for all people involved watching it. um They had woke up and found their parent um doing some kind of prayer to remove the gay from them. And it freaked the student out, it freaked me out. It would freak anybody out. and And at that point in time, I had just, I just decided that I was going to become the momma.
Supportive Academic Environments
01:02:28
Speaker
And so I would bring in little things. I would make that person the center of my conversation. When they came in, we always talked about more than just math. Math is wonderful. It's like the gateway drug to conversations, if you do it right. mean um It can really open doors and and help you to lead these conversations. um As you're working on a problem, you're you're talking about life and what you're engaging in. And that's what we did. And and now that person is long gone. I can imagine a graduate that never knew when they graduated. i don't I'm not sure of that, but they are doing well. I know that they're working in the airline industry. They're doing great.
01:03:12
Speaker
um I'm super proud of that individual and I can't tell you how blessed I am to have them in my life because they helped me to not be able to make those same mistakes as a mother and as someone who deeply loves my LGBTQIA community. Deeply loves and appreciates and I'm ride or die for them. They are me.
01:03:43
Speaker
So I think that that's something that we really, I would love for people, if you could take one thing um away from this conversation, is that LGBTQIA plus people are are deserving. They are beautiful. And you need to open your heart because if not, you're going to miss out. You're going to miss out. You didn't see me say they're going to miss out. They're not. um You're going to miss it out um because
01:04:14
Speaker
It's a beautiful privilege to be able to be in a world where people can be free, to be who they are in those aspects. I hope, I'm hoping for my freedom to be who I am sometimes a little, you know. Exactly. You talk about the introspectionality. Exactly. Well, I'm looking, I'm hoping, I'm looking. say it They can do it pretty soon. um I see the hair revolution when we talk about black women and we talk about black spaces and it gets me so excited. So I can only imagine how the future will bring changes. Exactly. those Those huge things with being able to come out, being able to talk about that with, you know, a friend or a colleague, it really creates so much impact. A big thing for navigating professionals in STEM settings is coming out and
01:05:09
Speaker
Is there particularly a way in which we can create that sort of space without just having a sticker on our door? you know I swear it. I'm just going to make this as our new bumper sticker should be, you are not necessarily a safe space if you have a sticker on your door. Exactly. Hey, there you go. There you go. That is what's up. That's what I like. I think it's really important for us to survive those spaces. I don't think, I think that people are more willing to come out to people that they talk to and engage with. If you don't bring people into your circle, then you're not going to have people that are going to feel comfortable enough to even come out and talk to you. precise So the first thing is, is you got to work on yourself, my friend.
01:06:06
Speaker
um It's a lot of inner work. It's a lot of inner dialogue. It's a lot of searching out information. I gave you a few authors. Look them up. I gave you some people um that I actually even have a publication out. But that is really important and to make sure that when we're doing this, that out um that you're really
01:06:32
Speaker
How do I say it? That you're really genuine about it, deliberate about it, and inclusive about it. And that your first conversation might not be somebody coming out. Your first conversation might be someone you meet in the, no you might meet the person in the parking lot. And then after that, you start to meet the person and then you're like, oh, how are you? I see you all the time. Oh my gosh. You might reach out to that person, check on that person, engage with that person. And then over time, these relationships build. It's not a five minute thing. I have to laugh. If someone didn't catch the first part of that interview, yes, Erica and I met in a parking lot on campus. Yes, we did. The people you meet in a parking lot.
01:07:29
Speaker
You never know, folks. You never know. That's right.
01:07:35
Speaker
And ah essentially, you know, it's the same as somebody sliding into your Twitter DMs. Exactly. Who who is that stranger that you just met? And you don't know how impactful they will be on your wife, on your family. And, you know, it could be someone in one of your classrooms, one of your students. I have made friends with some of the most unexpected professors just for the fact that I went to office hour and I sent some, but I think one day I sent them an email, it was hotter than sin outside. Like going to Duncan, running late to office hours, don't care, do you want coffee?
01:08:28
Speaker
And it was during finals week. They were like, yes, please. And that struck up true a conversation. The biggest thing that I want to kind of take away of just meeting somebody, it's treating them the way that you want to be treated. yeah And, you know, you, you might have an extremely religious background. you might have a different tolerance level of something than somebody else. And the big takeaway is, is that when you meet somebody by chance, you don't know of that universal random probability yeah of how impactful someone can be in your life.
Final Thoughts on Love and Inclusion
01:09:17
Speaker
Absolutely. But you have to give them room so that they can exponentially grow, right? Yep.
01:09:22
Speaker
And it's giving that exponential growth room of, you know, people who um I'll talk about playing magic, playing video games. You meet the people that you game with, that you stream with. And your circle in your And I have to say for academics now that I'm not teaching anymore or as often.
01:09:51
Speaker
Something that academics need to hear is that yes, yes, you can still be a professional. Yes, you can still have your personal biases, but it's still about being kind and being a good person at the end of the day to somebody who is different than you, a different gender, treating them equally. They may not look the same as you, right? They may not have the same sexual preferences as you. Absolutely. Same age? Same age. Weight. Weight is a big thing. That is huge. like Gosh, that's its own it own podcast. Yup. It's really about being a human and having those connections. Absolutely. Changing that huge dynamic for the workplace, for your culture, for your life.
01:10:49
Speaker
Because one of your new best friends who you can go out to dinner with does not have to look like you. No. And you have to remember that. This is a big world you miss out on a lot. You miss out on so much life, culture and enrichment. And, you know, it's being able to talk to somebody who who is very different. Erika and I have very different backgrounds. Totally, totally different. but you know it's the listen yeah Most of the listeners see me as like the interviewer, and they don't see me as
01:11:33
Speaker
the very eclectic, quirky, eccentric person. You know, they're, they're not one of my students. They're not intersectionalities that make up who you are. Yeah. You're very different. Being able to be different, not only like it looks, but also in life experience.
01:11:56
Speaker
But, you know, you make a friend and it's having that unexpected friendship is that is going to be what makes things more rich for life. Absolutely. The richness of life. Yep. And out of curiosity, is there anything that you want listeners to take away?
01:12:24
Speaker
I want listeners to take away that it is okay to be kind to one another. It is okay to call people in and not call them out to that extent um of the call out or shaming. um I would like listeners to also be able to recognize when people have barriers or recognize things that they could possibly help change in the world. ah that whether it be someone's opinion, whether it be someone's viewpoint. um I think it's really important to challenge beliefs when they are untruth. I think it's very important to challenge those beliefs. I think it's very important to have conversations about LGBTQIA plus topics.
01:13:16
Speaker
and And I think it's very important to have conversations about black and brown people in spaces. I think it's very important because our experiences are not the same. And if we're going to change the world and make it a better place, ah we have to start with one another because we're the we are the people that create the world. So I think those will be great things. and And something else I want you to think about is that if you have that person that you love very dearly or is a friend that comes out to you and tells you that they are part of the LGBTQA community.
01:13:55
Speaker
If you decide that you are going to throw them away as a result of it, you're throwing ah one of the most beautiful gifts that you've been given in this world away. And I want you to understand the depth of what you're doing to your life and to that person. Haul people in, ah learn to love one another a little bit better. And that's what I'd like people to walk away with it.
01:14:27
Speaker
I'd like them to walk away with that. A lot of people need to hear that. Thank you. A lot of people need to hear that. I hope. Sometimes you say those things and then they'll be like, what? You didn't say that. You said something different. No, you you said it as it is. yeah It is very clear. ah So I would like to thank people for listening in today all to listening Breaking Math podcast, to, you know, reminder for people to be themselves, for them to be able to navigate conversations.
01:15:10
Speaker
And to everybody out there, happy pride.