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Special Feed Drop Featuring Curious Cousins
3.5k Plays2 years ago
From Jess and Tiff from Curious Cousins:
Roger Dale Stafford or Sirloin Stockade Murders
What a doozy for our first True Crime episode! It's TIFFerific or TIFFtastic (which sounds better?)! Tiff dives into the life and crimes of Roger Dale Stafford and the Sirloin Stockade Murders. This guy, his wife, and probably his brother, were pure EVIL. This episode isn't for the faint of heart! Just be warned...listener discretion is advised for our younger listeners. The book Tiff constantly references is Oklahoma's Most Notorious Cases by Kent Frates. Don't forget to like and follow us!
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Recommendation
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi CNC fam, Allison here. As you can tell, I am feeling a bit under the weather. I have been sans voice for about a week now. I was hoping it would be back in time to get an episode recorded to get out to you. But alas, it has not come back yet. I didn't want to leave you hanging. So I thought in place of me giving you an episode this week, I would share with you
00:00:29
Speaker
an indie true crime podcast that I truly enjoy called Curious Cousins, where cousins Jess and Tiff share weekly stories of true crime, the paranormal, dark history, and they post new episodes every Friday. So please enjoy this feed drop from Curious Cousins. And please pray for me that I will be back with you next week
00:00:58
Speaker
with a new case for coughing cases. Until next week, sleuth hounds.
Content Warning and Podcast Focus
00:01:04
Speaker
Hey, cousins. This is Tiff. Today's topic is a little mature for our younger audience. Listener discretion is advised.
00:01:38
Speaker
Hi, this is Jess. And I'm Tiff, and we're your curious cousins. Where we talk about everything, kooky and spooky in the state of Oklahoma. I kind of got a doozy for you today. Well, what do we have? This is a true crime episode. And I think this is a Tiff-er-ific or Tiff-tastic. I can't remember which one we did. It's just me. Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:02
Speaker
I am going to be covering a spree killer, not a serial killer, a spree killer. Spree killer. I don't think I've ever heard that term used. I vaguely remember hearing it probably from another podcast, but I didn't click until I started doing my research for this one. A spree killer is someone who does numerous killings or murders in a very short period of time.
00:02:30
Speaker
where serial killer, you know, can do it over a long periods of time. Okay. Well, that makes sense.
Passion for True Crime and Victim Advocacy
00:02:37
Speaker
So first I also want to preference that Jess and I are not professionals. We're not experts in the field of true crime or even paranormal or even dark history. No.
00:02:50
Speaker
We just have a passion for it and in my mind we want the victims stories to be heard yes, and in this case many of the victims families are still alive and I think they deserve a
00:03:05
Speaker
to have this continued justice and continued learning because one of these criminals in this story that I'm covering today, they are continually up for parole. And I just think it's important that this person does not leave their little jail cell.
00:03:22
Speaker
that they've been in for 40 plus years now.
Who is Roger Dale Stafford?
00:03:25
Speaker
Jess and I, we are not crime aficionados. We do not have backgrounds in that area. But we do a lot of research. And something that I think is unique to you and I, we do mostly book research as opposed to internet research. There's just something more that you can gather from an actual book, I think. Yes, the World Wide Web opens up so many doors for us.
00:03:51
Speaker
And we're not saying that it's bad to use the word because we obviously have used it numerous times, but we do use a lot of books. Yes, we have quite the collection of them. And it's growing. Yes.
00:04:07
Speaker
With that, I just don't want anyone to think that we're trying to provide some of these as entertainment or funny type things. No, we don't think these are funny at all. This is just something awful that happened that we think people should know. It's important that we don't forget. We don't forget the past. We learn from it.
00:04:29
Speaker
And that this is what our purpose is to bring that type of stuff to light. So with that being said, today I am covering Roger Dale Stafford. He was also mostly known for the sirloin stockade murders in the late 1970s.
00:04:49
Speaker
See, I actually, okay, so I know we talked about him maybe like a couple months ago, maybe you were kind of telling me about Oklahoma's serial killer. And recently, like, maybe a couple weeks ago, I heard the sirloin steakhouse episode from Erie, Oklahoma.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yes. And I had never heard that story before. That was my first time hearing it. And I honestly didn't connect the two until you just said it, so. Yes. Eerie Oklahoma, their episode over the Sirloins-Docade murder, that was one of the episodes that I listened to. I also listened to case 202, the Sirloins-Docade murders, part one and two.
00:05:38
Speaker
by The Sirens, a true crime podcast. Both of those podcasts, Erioke, obviously, and The Sirens are both specific Oklahoma podcasts, and we are huge fans of them both. I also read the section from a book called Oklahoma's Most Notorious Cases by Kent Freights, the Sirloins, and Stockade Murs.
00:06:02
Speaker
That's where 90% of my information probably came from. And then I used Murderpedia over Roger Dale Stafford. And if you've never looked at Murderpedia and Crew Crime as something that you have a passion for or are interested in, that website
Stafford's Troubled Past
00:06:19
Speaker
will give you more than you ever bargained for.
00:06:23
Speaker
Well, I don't want to say I'm excited, but I'm, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about everything. Yeah. I want to start out because I want us to recognize that this is going to be about the victims. And I wanted to point out his victims. His first victim was Jimmy Earl Berry, who was age 21, Air Force Tech Sergeant Melvin Lawrence, 38, his wife, Staff Sergeant Linda, 31.
00:06:50
Speaker
Their son, Richard, who was 12, Isaac Freeman, Louis Zacharius, Terry Horst, David Salesman, Anthony Too, and David Lindsey. And so we'll go over all of them. There are about three murders or events that happen where these victims became victims, I guess.
00:07:14
Speaker
So let's start in the beginning. Roger Dale Stafford. He was born November 4th, 1951. I think that makes him a Scorpio. And he died by execution on July 1st, 1995.
00:07:29
Speaker
He was 43 years old and he died by lethal injection. He was what is considered a spree killer, not a serial killer, meaning that he committed his murders in a short period of time rather than over a long period. His early life started out in Alabama where he was born. He was one of 10 children. His hometown is Sheffield, Alabama.
00:07:53
Speaker
In 1956, his family moved to Chicago. His father was usually unemployed and his mother usually kept a job as a housekeeper. Roger dropped out of school in about ninth grade. He ended up going to Illinois State School for Delinquents at Gillette. I believe that's how you pronounce it. Okay. He was
00:08:13
Speaker
kind of into petty crime at the time and just not making good choices. So in 1968, he decided to join the US Marines but was medically discharged after 28 days. I couldn't find anywhere why he was medically discharged or what kind of
00:08:30
Speaker
I mean, it could have been anything like a heart murmur. Yeah, health issue that he might have had. After this, Roger was mostly a drifter, thief, a con man, and most assuredly, probably a murderer. And by probably, we don't know anything really before 1974, if he committed any murders before then, it's suspected that he possibly could have
00:08:51
Speaker
It wouldn't surprise me if they were ever to probably find that he did. He may go ahead and he would turn into what they would call a serial killer. I see. Here's a kooky fact. Roger would sometimes tell people he was from Stadfordshire, England and he spoke with a fake British accent. Why? I don't know. And I laugh because Jess's little brother and my husband, they
00:09:19
Speaker
like to speak with fake British accents. We all four of us had traveled to Las Vegas once and they had the taxi cab driver convinced that they were British and Jessica and I were like, they're not British. Well, the funny thing about that is neither one of them sounded like legit British accent. No, they sounded terrible.
00:09:42
Speaker
Oklahoma boy trying to sound British. I mean, that's what it was. Exactly. Roger never stayed anywhere for very long. He never held a job for more than a few months. So he really did kind of live that transient lifestyle that is very familiar to... So he was kind of like his dad in the fact he couldn't hold a job. Yeah.
00:10:07
Speaker
Yes. Yes. In 1972, he married a woman named Verna. They had three children. I'm not going to name the children simply because they are still alive and I would rather let them keep their privacy. Right. Wait. Okay. So where is he at this point? Like is he still in Chicago? I believe so. Okay.
00:10:28
Speaker
I couldn't remember if you. I'm trying to be a better listener. At some point he makes his way back to Alabama in the next two years because in 72 he marries Verna and they start to have children and you know this is something that is not often brought up but in my opinion and believe me most of this podcast is my injustice opinion
00:10:50
Speaker
His children were just as big as victims as the actual victims because in this case, they, spoiler alert, lose both parents. And not to mention that they were just raised in an atrocious situation. And I'll get into that, but it's just no way that children should be raised in. So I hope that they're thriving and that they're able to put behind what their parents did. Anyways, we'll move on.
00:11:19
Speaker
In 1974, on January 12th, in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, 20-year-old Jimmy Earl Berry, he was a student at the University of Northern Alabama. He is shot to death four times in a McDonald's robbery.
00:11:34
Speaker
The killer got away with $1,400 which would be about $8,400 today. Roger and Harold. Harold is Roger's brother and is his accomplice in most all of his criminal activities. Okay. They had been living
00:11:50
Speaker
about a mile from the McDonald's at the time. Roger left town two to three weeks after the murder but was arrested in Tennessee where a .22 Ruger pistol was taken off of him. The pistol matched the type used in the Barry murder and the murder remained unsolved for four years. Oh man. This is where most
00:12:11
Speaker
I think detectives and experts in the area believe that his murdering spree started here in 1974. So he kind of got the taste for it and ran with it. And one of my sources, it said that he was known to be in state
00:12:32
Speaker
that actually did have missing persons or unsolved murders in them. One of those kind of Israel keys type things. So he was, there's just all we know or the ones that we have. And probably no way to tell now. Yeah. Oh, most definitely. In 1978, June 22nd, the bodies of Air Force Tech Sergeant Melvin Lawrence, 38,
00:13:00
Speaker
and his wife, Staff Sergeant Linda Lawrence, 31, are found dead near Purcell. Their pickup and son are missing. On June 24th, authorities find Richard Lawrence, 12, dead about a mile from where his parents were found at this point. So when did they do the crime? I'll get into that.
00:13:20
Speaker
I go into a big whole thing. This is kind of just the timeline right now. At this point, I will refer to the criminals as the Stratford Trio. It's not Stratford, that's a town in Oklahoma. Stafford Trio. Or I'll use their actual names.
00:13:39
Speaker
The trio consisted of Roger Dale Stafford, his brother Harold, and his wife Verna, Roger's wife Verna. Not Harold's wife, we'll get into her later. Okay. On July 16th, the Stafford trio arrives at the Sirloin Stockade in south Oklahoma City.
00:13:55
Speaker
They wait for all customers to leave, then approach the back door where they knock and pointing guns at the manager enter. Roger and the manager empty the safe of $1,290, approximately $5,800 today. Verna and Harold hold the remaining five employees at gunpoint. Then all six employees of the Sirloin Stockade restaurant at Southwest 74th and Penn are herded into a walk-in freezer and shot about 10.45 p.m.
00:14:25
Speaker
A teen, Carlos Joy, waiting to pick up his girlfriend, Terry Horst, at the restaurant discovers the scene when he sees the trio's card leaves and he enters the restaurant looking for everyone. Oh that's awful. Yes. I can't even imagine.
00:14:41
Speaker
The insane thing is I am very familiar with this part of Oklahoma City. That's where we would always go and do shopping around there and we would eat because they have like a lot of really cool restaurants. And so when I Google Earth the exact location, now I believe it is a Del Taco.
00:15:00
Speaker
but it's been a Joe's Crab Shack before. I don't remember it ever being a sirloin stockade. I imagine it probably closed after this. Okay, so was sirloin stockade, was that kind of like a chain or was it just a, because I'd never heard of them before. Okay, I don't think they had them up here. The first one I ever remember seeing or ever have been to has been the one that was in Stillwater. I don't even know if that one's still there, but that's the first one I had ever heard of and
00:15:29
Speaker
it almost sounds like that it may have just been kind of a central Oklahoma kind of thing kind of thing it's very similar to golden corral or oh kind of like a buffet yeah like what was that one called like this sirloin stizzler oh western sizzling western sizzler there we go yeah it's very it's just like the same of that
00:15:50
Speaker
I see. Okay. So this happens and 21 detectives are assigned to this case across the law enforcement agencies. The lead detective is Les McCaleb. Larry Kuntz is a robbery homicide detective assigned to the case.
00:16:07
Speaker
Bill Cook and Phil Stinnett are assigned as an Oklahoma City Police Department and OSBI task force. It is rumored that the reason the trio was in need of this money was because Roger and Verna couldn't afford the house and their three kids, so they needed extra money. Harold needed the money to pay for an abortion for his girlfriend. Mind you, his wife is in Tulsa with his and his brother's children.
00:16:34
Speaker
What? It said she was just viewed as the babysitter, which I think is disgusting. His girlfriend or the mom? His wife. His Harold's wife. They literally, the trio called her Fat Mary. The wife? Yes. And she apparently was just there to watch the kids so they could go on their little exploits. Oh, how awful. Exactly. Oh my gosh.
00:16:59
Speaker
So on July 23rd, Karma, I suppose, maybe, comes knocking and Harold Stafford dies in a motorcycle accident in Tulsa. Oh, wow. In one source, it says that his death is suspicious, which we'll get into that where you may by the end of this, I'll allow you to make your own conclusion. But by the end of all my research, his death became very suspicious to me as well. Okay, interesting.
00:17:25
Speaker
Nothing ever comes of that suspicion. Simply chalk it up to he got into a motorcycle accident. Verna Stafford later testifies that he was involved in both the Lawrence and the Steakhouse murders. So he was a part of this whole gang, I guess you could call it. Yeah. On July 24th, police begin checking for links between the two cases that these possibly could be linked to one another.
00:17:51
Speaker
During this time, Roger travels between Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee, Alabama, New York, Florida, and England. It is believed that Roger conned a woman in Florida to take him to New York and then pay for a ticket to England. Roger got to use his fake British accent. I'm sure it went over well there. Roger and Verna had separated at this time with Verna going to Chicago with the three children. And we'll get into why I think they separate.
00:18:19
Speaker
So why, what was the timeframe on that? The murders happened July 16th and by July 24th, he's already traveling all over the place. Wow. They're separated.
00:18:30
Speaker
So were they separated when the murders happened? No. Oh, that's interesting. We'll get into that. All right. So then in September of 1978, 10 year old Greg Martin and his friends find a sap containing three guns hidden in a wooden lot in Northwest Oklahoma city. It took a week before the guns were considered in the sirloin stockade murders. Two of the guns were identified as being used in both the sirloin stockade and the Lorenz murders.
00:18:58
Speaker
So that's about the time when they discovered that these two homicides are related. So a couple of kids found these guns? Yes. I'm assuming they told their parents or called the police or something to that effect? Yes. Greg went to his dad. His dad instantly called the police. Well, that's good at least. So we're going to skip ahead to 1979.
Connecting the Crimes
00:19:16
Speaker
January 2nd, the OSBI releases three composite sketches.
00:19:21
Speaker
Arthur Linville with OSBI is the agent who supervised Lauren's case. He was working with the detectives involved in the sirloin stockade murders. After they released this composite, more than 200 tips started flooding in, including the best one. We may joke, we know that this is not a funny topic, but criminals are stupid. Oh, absolutely. And Roger is no exception to this.
00:19:48
Speaker
January 3rd, a very important podcaster's birthday I might say, but not 1979. January 3rd, a drunken Roger Dale Stafford makes an anonymous call claiming to be a truck driver into OSBI. Oh my gosh. Saying that he met two of the people in the composites and he gives them the names, Verna and Harold Stafford.
00:20:15
Speaker
Are you kidding me? Here's kind of a spooky fact. Roger is actually in Oklahoma City at the time of the call. Linville, the agent with OSBI, actually stopped to talk to the motel manager, the motel he was at, talked to that manager the same day he was there. Oh my gosh. They were literally
00:20:38
Speaker
in the same place at the same time. That is crazy to even think about. So March 6th, Harold's wife Mary is tracked down in Chicago. She corroborated that she and Harold were living with Verna and Roger at the time of the murders in Tulsa. Verna and Mary were currently working together. It is suspected that Mary had absolutely no idea about the trio's killing or crime sprees.
00:21:03
Speaker
Verna is arrested in Chicago. She was living there with her and Roger's three children, and the children were immediately placed into foster care. Here's the kooky fact. Remember Harold? He died in the motorcycle, right? A woman who went to view Harold's body actually identified it at the morgue. She proclaimed herself as his wife. Her name was Faye. She was not his wife.
00:21:30
Speaker
When they asked for her identification to confirm that she was his wife, she suddenly didn't have any. She had to leave. She would come back with it. This is the girlfriend, right? Oh. I don't think so. She left, but she returned, claiming to now be a friend.
00:21:49
Speaker
She was tracked down in our mental health hospital in Arkansas when she was found in question. She mentioned Roger and Verna and Harold and how they had committed the steakhouse murders. Somehow she knew them. I have no idea how she ended up knowing them. I could never find
00:22:08
Speaker
how she knew them. Faye identified Roger as Jimmy Wayne, which I believe is one of his aliases that he had used. I can find nothing more about this woman, how she knew them, what her relationship was like. That's weird. It was very so weird. It's so, it's kooky. It's crazy.
00:22:27
Speaker
Alright, so back to March 13th, Roger Dale Stafford is arrested in a YMCA lobby in Chicago.
Arrest and Interrogation
00:22:35
Speaker
He returned to Oklahoma City the next day. When Roger is found in Chicago, it is speculated that he may have been there to murder Verna. Silencing her would be beneficial to him because she was the last living witness to his murders. Wow. The spooky in me tells me Roger probably had something to do now with his brother's death.
00:22:56
Speaker
It's just my opinion. That's just my opinion. It seems too convenient that Harold winds up crashing his motorcycle right after this murder spree. And it's especially haunting because Verna claims Harold didn't want anyone to get hurt. He didn't want anyone to be murdered.
00:23:13
Speaker
so he just kind of he just thought like oh we're gonna rob this place he didn't and i will get very deep into all of the crimes when we get to the trial so do you think maybe roger and harold maybe had an argument possibly and possibly maybe that kind of was a reason for the motorcycle possibly
00:23:38
Speaker
Did they ever say like why they thought it was suspicious? No. Like were the brake lines cut or something? Literally the line just said his murder has been considered suspicious.
00:23:50
Speaker
I really want to know what that means. I know, right? Roger is interviewed twice, once by Michaela Binlinville and then again by Cook and Linville, and he never admits to any crime. Nevertheless, he makes comments that help to establish his guilt. Roger does admit to being the truck driver who called OSPI twice and identified Verna and Harold. It is speculated that Roger was trying to pin the murders on Verna and incidentally got himself caught.
00:24:19
Speaker
Oh, jeez. Roger asked Linville if Verna was for or against him, to which Linville replies that Verna is being fully cooperative. Roger would argue that Verna couldn't testify against him because it was his wife.
00:24:33
Speaker
But at this time, Oklahoma had no law preventing Verna from doing just that. Roger gets upset and shaken, stating he can't think and that all he can see is the gas chamber. Another kooky fact, Oklahoma doesn't have a gas chamber. Never has had a gas chamber. I looked it up. We currently are on lethal injection and have been, I think, since the beginning of the 70s. Oklahoma has never, to my knowledge, had a gas chamber.
00:25:01
Speaker
The Oklahoma Corrections website states that Oklahoma has executed a total of 197 men and three women between 1915 and 2022 at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary.
Legal Battles and Testimonies
00:25:14
Speaker
82 were executed by electrocution, one by hanging, which happened to be a federal prisoner, and 117 by lethal injection. The last execution by electrocution took place in 1966. So since then, it's been lethal injection.
00:25:30
Speaker
Interesting. I want to read from Oklahoma's most notorious cases. I'm going to read from page 225. Prior to October 1st, 1978, Oklahoma statutes had contained a prohibition preventing one spouse from testifying against the other.
00:25:47
Speaker
the legislator had modified this privilege in 1978. And under the prosecution's theory of the new law, Verna would be able to testify to anything she had actually seen or any conversations she had with Roger Dale in the presence of a third party. So that law came out that same year? A year before. Of the year before? He was caught in 79.
00:26:16
Speaker
It came out in 78. Oh man, how crazy is that? So since Harold and Verna were generally present when the crimes were planned and carried out, her testimony would indeed be admissible. Verna was in a position to cook Roger Dale's goose. This is again from the book.
00:26:34
Speaker
However, the new law to Oklahoma and its interpretation was still in doubt. The uncertainty over the admissibility of Verna's testimony and the need to corroborate it drove the detectives to search for more evidence. And more evidence did they find.
00:26:49
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Roger will later go on to say that he wasn't worried about being guilty because he was more worried that Verna was out to get him because he had left her because he had caught her fooling around. So she was trying to pen these murders on him.
00:27:09
Speaker
I feel like, like, what an excuse is that? Like, I don't. Okay. During his interrogation, Roger admits that in his dreams, he saw blood and heard screams. He wondered if it meant anything. He even asked Linville.
00:27:26
Speaker
If he thought it did. His dreams. Yes. So he's saying these, he's having these bloody gory dreams. And he asked the OSBI agent that. If it means anything. If it means anything. I'm just disgusted. It means you're guilty of murder. That's what it means.
00:27:43
Speaker
Here's a cookie fact, Roger Stafford was a talker. He claimed he could talk his way out of anything. I was going to say, it sounds like he likes the sound of his own voice. He sounds like a narcissist. A hundred percent. Like I'm positive, not positive, but if you were to look up narcissist, his picture should be right there.
00:28:02
Speaker
along with some other people. Because of being able to testify against a spouse was new and still up for debate and interpretation, detectives had to find more evidence to pen these murders on Roger. In their digging, detectives discovered that Roger, Verna, Harold, and Mary had all lived off and on at the Holiday Inn in Tulsa. Verna was employed there as a housekeeper. The four of them typically had access to rooms, even if they claimed residents in other places.
00:28:31
Speaker
This led Detective McCaleb to locate other workers at the Holiday Inn. One in particular was located in Enid. It was Linda Lewis. She, with the help of two more women, provided additional information that helped to convict Roger. In total, it takes six months to track down Verna and Roger Stafford.
00:28:49
Speaker
It was great old-fashioned detective work that brought these two down. They went straight for their informants, detectives did when it first happened, kind of shook them up. They didn't get any information. So then they went and offered a $50,000 reward, which would be about $227,000 today. They got nothing until Roger's own drunk dial. Oh, when he, the truck driver dial? Yes, his drunk dial. He was drunk, he was a drunk truck dial.
00:29:16
Speaker
Oh, that's drunk truck driver. Reassuring. On March 16th, Roger is arraigned on one count of murder of Terry Horst. On March 23rd, Roger is transferred to Eastern State Hospital in Vanita for a full mental and physical exam. After 24 days, he returned to Oklahoma City having been found sane and able to stand trial. Good. Now here's some karma again.
00:29:43
Speaker
June 15th, Roger's lawyer asked to be withdrawn as the attorney. It is granted on June 20th. His attorney stated that the funds to pay him had not come in, as well as Roger was indignant. 14 days later, Roger's second attorney withdraws. Again, because funds were not being raised by the Stafford family to pay the lawyer. So at this point, Roger is appointed a public defender.
00:30:07
Speaker
On July 24th, Jay, I don't know if it's pronounced Maloney or Malone. It's M-A-L-O-N-E. Malone. It sounds like Malone to me. Jay Malone Brewer and John T. Hall take up Roger's defense. It's kooky fact though. It's believed in one source that Brewer only took on the case so he could get the book and movie rights to it.
00:30:31
Speaker
I shouldn't laugh, but I mean, I wonder if that's true. Yeah, I don't know. On August 2nd, Roger Dale Stafford is ordered to stand trial for the steakhouse murders. At this time, the remaining five murder charges from the steakhouse murders were filed against Roger. Cleveland and McLean County withheld charging Roger for their Lorenz murders until the outcome of the Oklahoma County trial. Okay. And I'm going to read again from Oklahoma's most notorious cases. Page 227.
00:31:00
Speaker
The admissibility of Verna's testimony at trial continued to remain in doubt. Brewer adamantly argued against its admissibility. Remember Brewer is Roger's attorney. In the end, the question revolved around whether the change in the Oklahoma law was procedural or substantive. A fine point of law, but crucial to the outcome of the case. If the charge was substantive, then the privilege to bar Verna's testimony, which existed at the time the killings were committed,
00:31:30
Speaker
still remained and Verna could not testify. If the change was procedural, the path was open to the interpretation of the new law. Ultimately, Judge Geb allowed Verna's testimony, but the fight over this pivotal issue was far from over. Along with other motions, the defense would raise this issue again with District Judge Charles Owens, who was assigned to hear all pretrial motions and try the case.
00:31:58
Speaker
That's interesting. We'll figure out that that's going to be a fight throughout a lot of the case. How long did the trial last? I don't remember now. We'll get into it. We're getting ready to get
The Trial Begins
00:32:09
Speaker
into it. Okay. September 24th, District Judge Charles Owens ruled that Verna's testimony was admissible in court, a kooky fact. This was also the first trial that was going to be televised in Oklahoma.
00:32:21
Speaker
There was only one camera present. You said September 24th? Yes, ma'am. Oh, okay. That's another podcaster's birthday. The media was allowed to actually watch the trial but they were on a closed circuit in another room in the courthouse. This helped to prevent the circus-like event trials like this could cause and then the trial was also aired on network TV.
00:32:45
Speaker
Oh wow. October 8th, the trial begins. There are seven women and five men on the jury.
00:32:52
Speaker
Because of how many potential jurors they went through, the jury was sequestered the entire trial. Prosecutors set the terrible scene at the Sirloin Stockade. It seems three victims were only shot once straight in the head. The other three were riddled with gunshot wounds. Pictures of the victims' bodies were shown in court. Judge Owens has said that one of his most vivid memories from that trial was the impact it had on hardened police officers.
00:33:19
Speaker
One even had to leave the courtroom to vomit. This was all setting the stage for Verna's testimony. Verna described their living conditions at the Holiday Inn and how they were short on cash, so Rogers suggested robbery.
00:33:34
Speaker
that image of the well not image but what you talked about with police officers and that just gave me chills yeah that's just so heartbreaking verna said that roger assured her and harold that no one would get hurt even though they would be armed it is doubtful that verna would have believed him since this came on the hills of the lorenz murder yeah verna described how roger knew what restaurant to hit they drove there in a borrowed car
00:34:01
Speaker
and waited until all customers had left. Verna, Roger, and Harold were all armed with guns. They borrowed it from a friend. They knocked on the back door and Zacharius answered. They forced him to the cash register.
00:34:22
Speaker
Verna claims that Sicarius remarked that he couldn't understand why they would take other people's money when they could just work for themselves. And I'm going to go on like a little rant here. Several of my sources almost victim shamed this man. Really? For making that comment. And in my mind, because it does say that that comment infuriates Roger.
00:34:44
Speaker
I mean, I can see how it would. Verna says that. But at the same time, in a million years, did that man ever really think that he was going to get hurt? Or that his words were going to cost the lives of five other people. And I just get disgusted when people victim shame him.
00:35:05
Speaker
like you never he never would have thought that it's not his fault in his defense i mean it was probably late yeah it was it was 10 45 he was tired he was probably ready to go home he could have been hungry exactly i mean you know i've thought the same thing about things before in the heat of the moment it's just it's frustrating and it's just kind of like i am not going to victim shame here
00:35:28
Speaker
He had every right to say what he said because that was hard money that they did work for. And in a million years, he probably never thought that that was going to do him in or that comment was going to send this man over the edge. I mean, who would have known? Exactly. So detectives question this statement many times.
00:35:49
Speaker
Zacharius had cooperated the entire time it appeared, but Verna mentions this happening in each of her statements that she gave. Zacharius then called all the other employees to the register and told them they were being robbed and to cooperate. Zacharius then had to take Roger to the manager's office to get
00:36:08
Speaker
the $1,290. Harold and Verna placed the others in the walk-in freezer. The employees were told to sit down and that no one was going to get hurt. Roger returned with Sicarius, who Verna says was still talking about why people would rob other people's money. Verna said this made Roger a little furious.
00:36:26
Speaker
A little. Verna said at the time, Harold reminded everyone that no one was supposed to get hurt, but Roger responded with, they are going to get what they deserve. Roger then told Harold, and I'm pardon my language, don't be a chicken shit and a coward. Then shot Isaac Freeman.
00:36:46
Speaker
I think he had it planned all along. I 100% agree with that. I believe that he knew exactly what he was going to do when he went there. And I will tell you that there's a part of me that believes Harold and Verna knew it too. Really? You think so? I think so.
00:37:03
Speaker
Verna said that this one shot was the starting pistol. Harold and Roger unleashed shot after shot into the freezer. Verna claims to have tried to turn away and not watch it, but that Roger then told her it was time for her to help placing the gun in her hand and helping her pull the trigger.
00:37:21
Speaker
Well, yeah, he didn't want to be the only one implicated. Absolutely. It makes me think it doesn't even question Harold then because of him and Harold are both shooting up the rest of the victims. Why did Harold participate like that? Like if he was didn't know what was going to happen. Yeah.
00:37:36
Speaker
Verna then ran out of the sirloin stockade and picked up three empty boxes with the restaurant's name on them and placed them into the car. Roger and Henry, I put Henry in my notes, Roger and Harold, then got into the car. Roger sped out of the parking lot and onto the highway, almost hitting another car. This was corroborated by Pamela Ann Lynch as she was the other car and she could positively ID Roger. She said they made eye contact. Oh, wow.
00:38:06
Speaker
What's disgusting is that Roger saw Pamela waiting outside the courtroom prior to her testimony. He caught her eye and made the slicing of his neck motion trying to unhinge her. It didn't work. She testified. She was a boss. Oh, you go, girl. The trio stopped to get drinks at a gas station after this. Roger then- After they just murdered how many people? Six. And all but two were teenagers.
00:38:36
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Roger then suggested they get rid of the guns. And so Roger drove around Northeast Oklahoma City until he found a wooded vacant lot. He placed the guns in the gas station's bag and hid them. Not very well if a couple of kids found them. No, like I literally think it was like under some twigs or something. They then returned to Tulsa because that's where they lived.
00:38:58
Speaker
The next day, the trio met in a vacant room at the Holiday Inn to divide up the money. Another maid, Rose Anna Marie Collins, caught them with the money and asked where they had gotten it. Verna said she had borrowed it. At this point, Roger discovered the sirloin stockade boxes Verna had taken. He ordered her to get rid of them, and it is reported that she didn't do it fast enough, so then he told Rose to burn them. Why did she take them in the first place? My opinion is that she wanted to get caught.
00:39:27
Speaker
because this is just my speculation again.
00:39:31
Speaker
if there weren't sirloin stockades in Tulsa, and now they have these boxes, and I don't know if it was known that they had drove to Oklahoma City the night before, but that almost implicates them having those boxes, as if she was trying to possibly get caught. Which, I mean, I kind of feel like she did at one point, maybe she did want to get caught, because she knew that what was happening was wrong.
00:39:59
Speaker
But she also participated in the- A hundred percent. And never, never went to the police. I mean, she participated in the couple's murder as well though, right? Even worse there. I think- So she just all of a sudden felt guilty? Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:15
Speaker
I don't even know what to say. Right, right. Despite all this, Detective Cook and Linville actually believe that Verna, not Harold, was the second shooter. There's no way they could ever prove this because it was Roger's word against Verna's word because Harold was already dead. Right, he was gone. This was due to statements she gave them prior to the trial, but of course, this version that I'm reporting on is what she gave under oath and is what is officially recorded. Right.
00:40:44
Speaker
Cross-examination of Verna was extensive. Brewer was trying to find any inconsistencies in her story. He even brought up Danny Kerr, which was an acquaintance of the Stafford's as the third person with Verna and Harold. However, police had already eliminated Kerr, citing that he was actually in Tulsa at the time of the crimes in Oklahoma City. He was somebody, he was on police radar. Yeah.
00:41:09
Speaker
And so they had already kind of looked into him. OK, I see. Verna was very persuasive, yet unsympathetic. And it's something that you will see carry over into parole trials and interviews that she'll give now.
00:41:24
Speaker
Interesting. Linda Louise Lewis was also a witness for the state. She overheard a fight between Roger and Verna at the Holiday Inn the day after the murder. Roger hit Verna and she threatened to call the police. Roger said she would be in just as much trouble but Verna stated she didn't kill them. Roger stated that she was there though. He had a point. Right. She would have been just
00:41:47
Speaker
Right. Then there's Teresha Darlene Bennett. She was also a housekeeper at the Holiday Inn where she witnessed Roger and Harold drive away in that borrowed car. She also said the sirloin stockade boxes.
00:42:00
Speaker
and a pair of blood splattered jeans were in the hotel dumpster. She said she even jokingly asked Roger if he was the one who killed the people in Oklahoma City. His response, are you ready? Yes, I did. She claimed his response was dead serious. Theresa and Rose spoke to each other about this. Rose again goes back and asks Roger if he did the murdering. And again, he says yes.
00:42:25
Speaker
Oh my gosh. He told her it was like shooting balloons. Shooting a fence post. She then threatened to turn him in and Roger told her that if she turned him in, she wouldn't live long enough to testify and Rose believed him, which I probably would have too. I mean, wouldn't you have? I mean, yeah, I would, but I still feel like
00:42:46
Speaker
I don't know what I would have done in that situation because I would like to think that I would go to the authorities and say, look, this guy told me this. I've asked him multiple times. He was dead serious. I think you need to look into him. I mean, I feel like I would hope that I would do that. But I mean, in the heat of the moment. Right. I mean, he's standing right in front of you, too. Well, and he's already killed.
00:43:09
Speaker
Nine people. Technically 10 if you kicked. What's one more? You know what I mean? Exactly. When the state rested, it was the defense's turn. Roger's ego couldn't keep him from taking the stand a la Ted Bundy. Oh, gosh. He wanted to, it seemed. He had already claimed he could talk his way out of anything. So let's see how this worked out for him. Oh, geez. He was egotistical, a total narcissist, even while on stand.
00:43:38
Speaker
He demoed his fake British accent while he was up there. No, he didn't. He described many exploits with gullible women who he could get money out of. Did you hear my eyes roll? I just feel like he's just proving how guilty he actually is. He literally said, why would I stand when I'm blessed with this gift of gab? As some would say, vomit. Vomitus.
00:44:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I just threw up in my mouth. I'm not gonna lie. Roger denied any and all involvement in the crimes. In an outburst, he declared, I'll take a lie detector right now, right here, right in front of the camera, in front of the jury, in front of your honor. Oh, jeez. Roger claimed that on July 16th, he was drinking with Danny Kerr and three black gentlemen. Roger thought it strange that the black gentlemen couldn't be found to corroborate his story.
00:44:35
Speaker
Roger thought it was strange. Because he made them up. Because he didn't exist. They didn't exist. Roger claims that at 6 p.m. Verna left and didn't return until 2 p.m. He was drunk on the hood of his car from 10 to 11, the precise time the murders were taking place.
00:44:52
Speaker
I think it's interesting that he knew the exact time that he was drunk on the hood of his car for that specific amount of time. Roger admitted that he was the truck driver who called OSPI to tip them off about Verna and Harold. He also had to express his opinions on the composite drawings.
00:45:13
Speaker
He said one picture was a dead ringer for his brother Harold. The other was absolutely my wife. And the third, he wasn't so forthcoming on. He claimed this fellow has glasses and didn't have a mustache and had brown hair.
00:45:30
Speaker
Roger says that he never wore glasses and always had a mustache. Because it's not easy to shave it off. Not at all. He went on and on about how Verna was lying. He said Verna was out to get him because she had got caught playing around three times, quote, playing around. I will not go into how I think Roger at this point shows how much of a complete racist he was.
00:45:56
Speaker
He mentioned people of color several times, like trying to pin it on that, oh, she was fooling around with people of color. Oh, I was with these people of color. Like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Yeah. That's just disgusting. He thought they were missing witnesses or someone who'd messed with him. And it is mentioned that Isaac Freeman, who happened to be the first person that they believe was shot, was a man of color.
00:46:25
Speaker
Do they think it was race related, like he was shot? Oh, first. Yeah. 100%. Okay. Roger denied ever owning any guns. The prosecution had two witnesses that claimed Roger not only had guns, but he bragged about them and showed them to them. Oh my gosh, he's like the biggest bigot. Everyone, everyone in that whole courtroom was lying except for him, Jess. Of course they were.
00:46:53
Speaker
He was the only honest man. I wonder how that happened. The only other witness the defense had was Roger's supervisor at work who confirmed that Roger had shown up at work at 3.15 in the afternoon on July 17th. Did he work the night shift?
00:47:12
Speaker
So he had plenty of time to commit the murders, come back to Tulsa, sleep, and go be at work at 3.15. Well, yeah. I mean, Tulsa is not that far from Oklahoma City. I mean, now, like on the turnpike, it's an hour and a half. Right. So. During the rebuttal, the prosecution called Ronald Watkins, who was a jailhouse informant and a felon, who served time with Roger. He said Roger claimed to have been there, but that his wife and brother had done all the murdering.
00:47:40
Speaker
He also said Roger told him about filing off the gun's serial numbers and getting rid of them. Oh wow. During the defense's rebuttal, they called another jailhouse informant Kenneth Thomas. This was a huge mistake, in my opinion. Instead of proving that Ronald Watkins was lying, it almost seemed to put the final nail in the coffin.
00:48:01
Speaker
Thomas claimed Roger called the worker at the sirloin stockade suckers or else they wouldn't have been working there and said his only mistake was not leaving Verna in the freezer. And of course, Roger had to take the stand again
00:48:16
Speaker
to say both Ronald Watkins and Kenneth Thomas were lying. I don't even have the words. So your earlier question was how long the trial lasted. It began October 8th. On October 17th, the Oklahoma City County journey convicts Roger Stafford, guilty in 27 minutes, no less.
00:48:36
Speaker
of all six counts of murder. The jury moved to sentencing where Roger's attorney asked that he not be executed. It only took 53 minutes of deliberation for the jury to recommend death on all six counts. And I am one of those people, the death penalty is a very gray area for me. I want to believe in reform, I really do, and rehabilitation. That's the purpose. But I don't think everyone deserves it.
00:49:02
Speaker
I would agree. This is probably one of them that doesn't. It's sickening. Absolutely. Everything about this guy is just disgusting. I've said that so many times. It makes me sick. It gets even better.
00:49:21
Speaker
While leaving the courtroom, Roger spoke to everyone saying, unless someone comes forward and tells the truth, I'll die an innocent man. At this point, Judge Owens tells the jury, I do sincerely believe justice was done. Roger was 27 years old.
00:49:39
Speaker
He was that young? Yes. Now, during this time, Verna files for divorce. So let's skip ahead to February 28th of 1980. A jury of seven men and five women are selected. Again, the jury is sequestered. Now that the Oklahoma City trial was over, it was time to answer for the killings of the Lorenz family.
00:49:59
Speaker
McLean County announced that they would go ahead with filing murder charges against Roger Dale Stafford. Verna would need to be the star witness again. Her testimony was devastating to Roger, but also to herself. Which, fair. Right. A hundred percent. Again, the defense tried to claim she couldn't testify against her spouse or that she had been put under hypnosis. This, of course, proved to be untrue and her attempt at hypnosis failed.
00:50:25
Speaker
Wait. Okay. Say the hypnosis thing again. What does that have to say? Sometimes they'll put people under hypnosis because it's supposed to jog. Bring up things. Memories that may be blocked. Well, when I guess they did try to put her under hypnosis. And it didn't work. And it didn't work. Okay. So it didn't matter. Right. So it didn't work. So her testimony is valid. Okay. I see. Roger then requested the use of sodium pentanthal. I think that's how you say it.
00:50:53
Speaker
pentathol what the heck is that this is known as the truth serum it's supposed to also be able to bring those suppressed memories what is this harry potter right right he didn't have professor snipe though
00:51:06
Speaker
However, it is incidentally also one of the drugs used for lethal injections. So in my mind, I was like, what if it had failed and you had died? Like, is this your way of getting out of having to answer for what you did for the Lorenz family murders? I'm betting that Roger was hoping that possibly.
Victims' Backgrounds and Verna's Plea
00:51:27
Speaker
But even if it didn't work, whatever he said under the use of that drug would have been inadmissible because he's under a drug. Right. So, hello pot, this is Kettle. Right. Remember what you said about Verna being hypnotized? Roger claims to have an alibi for the Lorenz murders. Here's some information about the Lorenz family. Both Melvin and Linda were serving our country in the US Air Force.
00:51:54
Speaker
They were stationed in San Antonio, Texas. And at the time of their murders, we're heading home to North Dakota to attend Melvin's mother's funeral. It just killed that. That's their family. They're having to put a matriarch, say goodbye to her. And in the middle of it, when they should just be focusing on one person, that happens to them.
00:52:23
Speaker
I know that it's not like the Stafford trio knew, but at the same time, like. Well, I mean, you just have to feel so, I mean, so bad for the family because they just lost this, the mom, the grandma, probably the sister. I mean, whatever else she was to other people. And then like you said, this awful thing happens where husband, wife and child are murdered. It's not like they just die in a car wreck.
00:52:53
Speaker
They were murdered brutally. Right, you know, right after this major arc, like you said, passes away. I mean, I can't even imagine what that family went through. Me neither. Or is still going through the night. Verna again testified. She stated that at first they stole a gun in Purcell and the plan was to rob a motel in Paul's Valley.
00:53:13
Speaker
They went to Paul's Valley, the motel, for whatever reason they decided against it. I'm assuming it was too busy or there wasn't a good place for, I don't know, I don't know how robbers think. But Verna comes up with this idea that they could flag down a car, her faking, that she is some distressed motorist and then they could essentially jump that person and rob them. It was her idea. She admits that it was her idea. The Stafford,
00:53:39
Speaker
Trio parked their car on the side of I-35 south of Purcell. Roger and Harold are hiding behind the car. It took about an hour before the Lorenz family stopped their truck to help Verna. Melvin looked under the hood and told Verna he couldn't find anything wrong. Roger and Harold then appeared and demanded all of Melvin's money. Melvin said he would give them some but couldn't give them all of it.
00:54:04
Speaker
This infuriated Roger again like in the, you know, in the steakhouse murders. So he shot Melvin twice in the neck and chest. Linda Lorenz then rushed to her husband's aid and attacked Verna. Verna pushed Linda away and Roger shot her three times.
00:54:20
Speaker
Two shots penetrated her lungs and won her aorta. The trio dragged the bodies away from the highway. Roger then took Lorenz's truck and started driving north on I-35. Verna and Harold were in the car behind him. Roger heard sounds coming from the back of the truck and if you, I almost want to tell people, skip ahead 30 seconds to miss this part if they want, if they don't want to hear this next part. I'm like already tearing up because I know what's going to happen.
00:54:46
Speaker
I mean, I can just, okay. So while driving, Roger hears sounds coming from the back of the truck and it is a small little voice asking for his parents. Um, so he pulls the truck over and he discovers Richard aged 12 and his dogs.
00:55:02
Speaker
because there was like a camper shell on the back of the truck and Richard was calling for his parents. Verna and Harold pull over and Roger told them of the quote problem. Verna is quoted as telling Roger that there's no sense in hurting the little boy because he couldn't identify them. Roger disagreed saying that there could be no witnesses. Roger then tore a hole into the camper screen and fired into the back of the truck, wounding Richard.
00:55:28
Speaker
Harold and Roger then drag his body into a field where they realize he's still alive. So they shoot him again. So he had been shot three times at this point. Dr. Fred Jordan said that the boy was probably still alive when they left his body in that field. Okay, so this is kind of a weird part. The Lorenz truck, abandoned truck, was found at Will Rogers.
00:55:52
Speaker
airport with the dogs still alive inside. However, it is stated that Roger was seen with the truck in still water. So they drove from Purcell all the way to still water, then turned around and came
00:56:10
Speaker
back to Oklahoma City to leave the truck. That makes no sense. I didn't understand. I don't understand. In a weird twist, Agent Linville, that OSBI agent, he believed that Verna may have actually been the one to fire the fatal shots to both Melvin and Linda Lorenz. The angles of Melvin's wounds were consistent with him being under the hood of the truck. And Linda's attack was pointed at Verna, not Roger.
00:56:35
Speaker
However, the prosecution adopted Verna's version. Brewer went after Verna, again pointing out that she had lied repeatedly to police, thus trying to avoid her own convictions and the death penalty. But we'll get to her. How awful that these people stopped to, out of the kindness of their heart, to help a woman who they thought was in need. And it's just like,
00:56:59
Speaker
No good deed goes unpunished, right? It just it makes you not want to help anybody because you can't trust them. And that's I mean, you always want to be kind, right? Well, in this day and age, it's like you just can't trust anybody. And it's just so yeah, in this day and age, you certainly can't do that. It's just awful. Melvin's brother identified the guns the Stafford's had stolen from the Lorenz truck because of course they had to steal something. Right.
00:57:28
Speaker
The Purcell pawn shop owner identified the gun stolen from his shop and used in the murders because they had stolen the gun in Purcell. Even though the serial numbers had been scratched off, it was unique in that it misfired after every fifth shot. This matched the five spent shell casings and one live shot found at Richard's body. Wow. The three witnesses from the Sirloin Stockade murders were again called.
00:57:54
Speaker
Michael Jones was called to the stand saying that he was actually shown the gun that had killed Lauren's family by Roger himself. Ray Tackett, the Stillwater businessman, was also called. He's the one that had seen Roger in Stillwater. Brewer tried to attack Tackett saying that he was only in it for the money. Tackett calmly responded with not knowing that there had been a reward and further saying his sighting happened on
00:58:20
Speaker
before the sirloin stockade murders, which he reported to Payne County seeing the Lorenz truck prior to those murders even happening because there had been like an all points bulletin. People had known that this truck had been stolen, had been this murdered family's truck. Had anybody seen it? Well, he called in and said, I saw it. It was in Stillwater.
00:58:43
Speaker
Interesting. Before, so let's brew a guy. Roger again testifies the narcissist beast. I think that's the perfect description. Right. He legit thought that he could talk himself out of this conviction and another death sentence because he was so good at it the first time around. I'm glad he wasn't good at it. Right.
00:59:05
Speaker
Again, he denied any involvement and placed all blame on Verna because he had caught her with another gentleman. He claims he came home from work on June 21st to find Verna gone. He watched TV, went to bed, then went to work the next morning at 6.30. Now get this, Roger had a witness or an alibi for this. The Stafford's were living at the time in an emergency housing center in Tulsa.
00:59:28
Speaker
Calvin Mendel Hall, a social worker, said that he remembered seeing Roger there because Roger requested that the TV be left on after the midnight curfew. Roger also had three officers and two employees testify that he was indeed at work on June 22nd. None though had actually laid eyes on him, but his time card was stamped for the day and they claimed his absence would have been noticed. However, the state was able to rebut this by having Ted Bollinger
00:59:58
Speaker
who serviced the time clocks show how easily the time clocks could have been manipulated. Buck Rudd, a supervisor at the Emergency Housing Center, said that Mendenhall had never mentioned seeing Roger before this and he was often known to tell untruths.
01:00:17
Speaker
Kenneth Thomas was again called. He was that jailhouse informant. He said that Roger told him he always killed the most dangerous person first. And he said it didn't make any difference if they were two or 82. They grow up to be just the same. Oh my gosh.
01:00:34
Speaker
He also told the court that Roger wasn't worried about a conviction because he had coworkers that would punch him in at work. I was going to say I bet someone punched him in. Oh, a hundred percent. March 7th, after one hour and 24 minutes, the jury convicts Roger Dale Stafford of the Lorenz killings and sentences him to death.
Appeals, Parole Denial, and Execution
01:00:55
Speaker
Roger would file numerous appeals in both the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals and the US Supreme Court. No appeals were successful in overturning his verdicts. Here's another kooky fact. He was viewed as the poster boy for a pellet court reform. At least you got something good out of it.
01:01:15
Speaker
At this time, Verna now pleads guilty to two second degree murder charges, one for 16 year old Terry Horst and the other for Linda Lorenz. Verna was sentenced to two 10 year to life sentences. In 1984, on April 2nd, 15 hours before Roger is to be executed for the Lorenz killings, Roger Dale Stafford wins a delay from the US Supreme Court. It is said that Stafford had many stays of execution before it actually happened. Really? Yeah.
01:01:45
Speaker
In 1989, on August 7th, in another Oklahoma case, the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals ruled that courts couldn't set indeterminate sentences, so this was Verna. Verna could potentially be allowed to go free immediately. Judge Richard Freeman was assigned her case. He correctly set aside her original sentence, but proceeded to conduct a hearing in which both parties would provide evidence.
01:02:13
Speaker
Verna played up her cooperation with the police. She even asked former district attorney Coates to testify on her behalf. At the time, the current DA, Bob Macy, offered up the gruesome evidence, reiterating Verna's involvement. Linville and Detective Cook also testified, believing Verna was way more involved than she admitted. I love like that judges get to make comments. Uh-huh. And this is, this is, this rings up there, one of those good ones.
01:02:39
Speaker
The judge tells Verna Stafford, there's one of the hottest corners in hell, vank it, with your name right above it.
01:02:46
Speaker
Wow. And sentences her to two consecutive life terms plus 999 years. Verna appealed, but the ruling was upheld. Wow. Now, it is important to know, Verna is still alive. She has repeatedly tried to parole out. Each request has been denied. I looked long and hard through the pardon and parole board's docket site, but I couldn't find her next date of eligibility for parole.
01:03:11
Speaker
It seems like 2019 was her last attempt, possibly. For sure, she had one in 2014. And typically, I think they're allowed three years in between. She is currently or still continues to be housed in Mabel Bassett Correctional Center in McLeod. She suffered, or as of 2014, she did, from neurological problems in her feet. At the time, she was in a wheelchair, assuming she may still be wheelchair bound.
01:03:39
Speaker
She remains passive and unemotional when speaking about her crimes. She claims she participated because she feared Roger. He forced her to help by threatening her children and her life. She said he told her about another murder, presumably the Jimmy Berry murder in Alabama from 1974.
01:03:56
Speaker
He also claims that he was associated with the mafia, which I highly doubt that. She also said she continued to receive those death threats from Roger while they were both in prison. But how? Because isn't there someone that reads prisoners' mail? Yeah, I believe so. That comes in and goes out. So I'm not quite sure how he could be threatening her, but I don't know. I'm going to read from Oklahoma's Most Notorious again, page 250.
01:04:23
Speaker
When asked if there was anything she would like people to know about the cases that has never come out, despite all the trials and headlines, Werner replied, I'm not the meanest person that everybody thinks I am. I mean, I wish I would have had more of a backbone to have stood up to him. You know, I wish it never had happened. But I think until people really realize the type of person he really was, no one's going to understand me. Does that make sense? It doesn't make sense.
01:04:50
Speaker
Say what she will, in the end, Verna's attempt to play victim is far more persuasive. She willingly participated in both of the vicious crimes. She never stepped forward on her own. She knew Roger Dale was a murderer before the Lorenz killings and even after that bloody crime, she stayed with him.
01:05:09
Speaker
and took part in the sirloin stockade murders. And she only helped the authorities after she had been caught and feared the death penalty herself. As for her unemotional appearance, it may well reflect her capacity for the cold-blooding killings of innocent people, just like Roger Dale Stafford himself.
01:05:27
Speaker
Right. I was going to say, I don't see how you can say, Oh, I'm this, this person. I was scared for my life going on and on, but have no emotion or remorse from what it sounds like for what happened because I didn't hear anything about being sorry to the victim's families of them doing that. I mean, how remorse remorseful are you? None is what it sounds like.
01:05:51
Speaker
So here we come, 1995. May 30th, prison officials officially notify Roger Dale Stafford that his execution date is 30 days away and urge him to make arrangements. July 1st, Stafford is executed after 15 and a half years on death row. Prior to death, Roger was said to have grown overweight and got remarried twice. While in prison? Yeah. He was still a narcissist and a big talker. Roger was said to still proclaim his innocence and spoke in tongues to his third wife,
01:06:21
Speaker
while the lethal dose of drugs was being administered. Here's a kooky fact. Roger's last meal and snack. Oh. He had chocolate ice cream. Get this. A six foot long chili cheese dog. Six foot long chili cheese dog. Yeah. That was a mess. I mean, is that almost as tall as he was? Two chocolate milkshakes and some french fries. And here's another kooky fact. This is more of a sick fact, I think. And this is very popular, like widely known about this case.
01:06:50
Speaker
Two weeks after the execution, Arthur Linville and Assistant Attorney General Sandy Howard each received a $5 gift certificate in the mail to the sirloin stockade.
The Mysterious Gift Certificate
01:07:02
Speaker
This message is written on the back. Hey, you got away with it. I am murder and you helped do it. Roger Dale Stafford, number 103767. The gift certificate was traced to a sirloin stockade in El Reno.
01:07:17
Speaker
and mailed from Macalester on July 3rd, 1995. And I wonder at this point if it was in his personal belongings and he had somehow instructed maybe his wife to mail it or if he had put it in the mail on the first and maybe the mail didn't go out every single day.
01:07:32
Speaker
You know, I think I remember hearing that in the Erie, Oklahoma episode and you're right. It's just sick. It's just disgusting. And I think if anything, it just proves how guilty he was and what a sicko he was. Yes, I agree.
01:07:49
Speaker
But that is the story of Roger Dale Stafford and the Sir Lloyd and Stockade murders. It's a gory, it's a bad one. I think he ranks up there with the Ted Bundy's of the world. It's heartbreaking, especially for not only the victim's family, but the children that they had. Yes, yes. And even if you think about it,
01:08:12
Speaker
you know harold's kids too because harold and mary had children it's just heartbreaking and it just makes you wonder what they did with the kids while they went and did well that's why they had mary because she was the one that was supposed to just watch the kids oh yeah that's right
01:08:27
Speaker
But yeah, that's it. Oh man, I don't even know what to say. I don't know what to say. You know, I laugh because I'm uncomfortable because it's hard. It's one thing when you listen to podcasts and they're talking about other parts of the country like California or Florida or New York and you're like, okay, you know, those are big giant states, big giant cities.
01:08:50
Speaker
But no, that stuff happens here in Oklahoma, too. I mean, let's be honest, it happens everywhere. BTK was just in Wichita, which is right across the border from Oklahoma. So it happens everywhere. It's one of those things that happens in every country, too. So it's just one of those defaults.
01:09:09
Speaker
human brains. I'd be interested to know if he had a brain injury. Nobody ever says anything about that. Oh, like as a child? Yes. Cause you know, a lot of them had had brain injuries, but I definitely think his, his growing up, his childhood probably played a big part in why. Now, did it say like growing up, was he abused at all or was it, do you think he was like neglected or because it sounds like his dad didn't work, but his mom was the one who was
01:09:37
Speaker
It didn't say like, I mean, if I speculated, I would say he was probably more neglected than he would have been abused. So I mean, it didn't really say that his dad was an alcoholic or anything. So it's just that his dad. It'd be interesting. So yeah, but that's the story of, you know, well, thanks for ruining my night. You're welcome. You're welcome. So Jess, tell everybody what we're doing next week.
01:10:05
Speaker
We really want to do listeners tales. Yes, please. I totally just butchered that. Listeners tales. So if you have any kind of stories, it doesn't matter if it's true crime, paranormal, some kind of dark history in your town, please, please, please write in. We want to hear from you so that we can read your story. We want to connect with our listeners. So if you have a listener tale for us,
01:10:29
Speaker
Please, please, please email us at curiouscousinsok at gmail.com. And just in the subject line, put listener tail. And just so our family and friends know, if we don't get any, we're coming after you. Here's your warning. Yep. Tiff, you want to tell them where they can find us? Of course.
01:10:50
Speaker
We are on the social medias. You can find us on Facebook at curious cousins. Okay. Podcast. You can find us on Twitter at curious cousins. Okay. But remember cousins is spelled C U Z N and you can find us on Instagram at curious cousins. Okay. And of course we're on all major podcast platforms, including Stitcher, Apple, Spotify, I heart radio and Google. And I think that's about it. Just
01:11:19
Speaker
Tell them what to keep it. Keep it cookie and spooky. Bye.