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39. 'Selling England By The Pound' - Genesis (1973)
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Episode 39: ‘Selling England By The Pound’ by Genesis (1973)
‘I Know What I Like (In My Prog)’
Concerned with the rise of Americanism in 70s Britain, Genesis would take a line from the Labour party’s manifesto and explore some serious folk and cultural elements in their fifth studio album.
1973’s ‘Selling England By The Pound’ was a very serious contender, musically, in the Prog/Hard Rock categories, but also continued the whimsical theatrics and drama from several of their previous instalments - combining both elements to create one of Genesis’ most revered and successful Prog albums.
Episode 39 Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0Hi886kYI3vmmXEPKib6Hp?si=da0bd1e3d1694030
LONG LIVE ROCK 'N' ROLL
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- Podcast Music by GeriArt, NaturesEye, astrofreq, Twisterium from Pixabay
- Podcast Art by Ross Davidson (@ross_feelshame)
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts' Banter
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello there, and welcome back to another episode of the Long Live Rock and Roll Podcast. You should be used to us by now, but if you're not, my name's Laz, and on the screen opposite me is our, the co-host, Mr. Felipe. How you doing, bro? All good, bro. I hope everyone is doing well. Good, good, good. What are you up to today? Anything special?
00:00:33
Speaker
Well, nothing special. There's the same old gigging and teaching, you know, as every week. Yeah. And you have got your rugby or whatever. I do. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One today. How Soho is it hustling and bustling? Yes, as usual. I mean, people, you just don't have the usual, like, boozers outside, you know, like, you don't have people drinking out.
00:00:59
Speaker
Because it's really cold. Because of the weather, yeah. They migrate into the pubs then. Yes, exactly. So now they have to deal with my band.
00:01:10
Speaker
We have a new slogan, we say we're less miserable than the weather. You better listen to us than just stay outside. Less miserable than the weather, that's a brilliant headline. We're doing another album episode today, Felipe, do you want to introduce the album and since you chose it, why don't you tell us why you chose it?
00:01:30
Speaker
Yes, as you might have noticed, I even dressed up for this episode. For listeners, he does look very sharp. He's got a lovely shirt on, a nice sort of waistcoat as well. Exactly. It could have been because I just collapsed in bed after my gig with the gig outfit, but no, I dressed up for the episode.
00:01:52
Speaker
We'll go for the dressing up for the episode as the excuse. Yes, you can edit that part up.
Episode Topic Introduction: Genesis' Album "Selling England by the Pound"
00:02:00
Speaker
So the album is Selling England by the Pound by Genesis. So that was released in 1973 and it's the fifth studio album
00:02:12
Speaker
by this amazing prog rock band. Tell you that. Why prog rock band? We're going to go about it in a minute. It was number three in the United Kingdom and number 70 in the United States. There might be a reason for that.
Genesis' Prog Rock Style and Cultural Impact
00:02:32
Speaker
Isn't it way too English for the Americans, maybe? No offense, guys, but it's just a cultural thing, isn't it? The lyrics have so many references about the UK, especially England, really, but also Scotland, but it's a very, very, very English album, I would say.
00:02:53
Speaker
And for those who are used to Genesis as a pop band with Phil Collins on vocals, and for those of you who are used to listen to Peter Gabriel singing sledgehammer, no. This is a complete different Peter Gabriel as a lead singer in a prog rock band and Phil Collins as
00:03:14
Speaker
Oh, what a drummer, you know, like, yeah, an amazing drummer. And I think when he became a lead singer, Frog Rock has lost one of one of its best rumors. Yeah, it's funny, though, because with this album, let me think about where to start when I say this. The Genesis discography, how would you say this compares to maybe the album before and the album after?
00:03:45
Speaker
Oh, that's what he has got elements of both because they were still kind of doing the same sort of stuff. I think this one is a bit more focused. I think the album before was Foxtrot, the album. That's true. Yes. The lamb goes down on Broadway. Is that it? OK. And you write about Foxtrot, but I don't know about the one. Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, because they had this. Well, they were doing prog rock, basically, you know, or he can't say just basically for prog rock, isn't it? It's not basic.
00:04:17
Speaker
But yeah, the whole idea of complex time signatures, long songs and experimentation, that has been one of their characteristics. And the one thing about his album for me that stands out is that Steve Hackett is the hero here, really. And I would say it's more about him and Tony Banks, the piano player.
00:04:40
Speaker
than the other guys in my opinion, although everyone plays to a ridiculous level. But yeah, I think this album, I think they went
00:04:55
Speaker
I think they went really far in a good way in terms of musicianship.
Personal Stories and Album's Lasting Appeal
00:04:59
Speaker
They play better, they explore their individual skills more than in the other albums. Why did you choose this album? What does this album mean to you on a personal note or a professional note?
00:05:13
Speaker
On a personal note, for me it started with me going to a record shop back in Brazil to buy CDs. I'm from the CD generation. I had some vinyls, but I'm more like a CD generation.
00:05:29
Speaker
So I used to go to this record shop and talk to the owner like for hours and he would introduce me to bands, all sorts of stuff from pop rock to heavy metal. But he was a massive prog rock fan. He would be going on about those bands. And then I said to him, listen, if I have money for just one prog rock album, which one should I buy? And he didn't hesitate to just grab the CD and said,
00:05:58
Speaker
take it. If you can't pay me now, you can pay me later, but this is the one you need. I bought the album, I got home and I wasn't disappointed. That was my earliest memory. The other thing is
00:06:14
Speaker
I was trying to convert my cousins into the rock and roll church. I was very excited about rock music when I was a teenager. I tried to convince all my friends to listen to rock music. I listened to Deep Purple and Emma's Lake Empowerment and all this stuff. So I played this album to one of my cousins and he wasn't impressed. Then when the second song started, his mom, my auntie, she came,
00:06:45
Speaker
into the living room and started dancing and singing along and say, Oh, I remember that one. What a beautiful song. It's the song I know what I like. Yeah. So so so it's it's so that showed me that the album survived the test of time. And also it's it's it's got some
00:07:06
Speaker
some interesting bits of pop music in it that everyone can relate to. But here's a prog rock album. There's loads and loads of musicianship and advanced guitar techniques and all that stuff that musicians like when they listen to that kind of music. And
00:07:29
Speaker
And the lyrics, man, I still don't get it. I mean, I've been in this country for eight years. And the references, I'm just about like grasping the references in the lyrics. So I understand why someone who is not English wouldn't buy. That's why number three in England, number 70 in the US plays a lot.
Genesis' Evolution and Cultural Themes
00:07:50
Speaker
It's a big gap. But it's funny, it's really funny what you were saying about pop, because
00:07:57
Speaker
So let me tell you what I know of Genesis. I know that they're one of my dad's favourite bands. I know that they are a prog rock band. I know that they've got some long songs and that they do this and they do that and it's quite proggy. I also know about songs like Follow You Follow Me. What album is that from? It's called and then there were three I think. I know that song. I know the song Land of Confusion because another heavy metal band called Disturbed covered it. And that really
00:08:26
Speaker
is all I know of Genesis. But when you suggested this, you go on. No, because that's the pop version of Genesis, isn't it? It's another information of the book. Right. But having said all that,
00:08:41
Speaker
What really really surprised me on this album is when you compare it with the likes of Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Yes, King Crimson, even Pink Floyd to an extent, we know that they're more rock than prog but you know that group of sort of British prog bands
00:08:59
Speaker
the the blend of pop that they have in theirs is so much more than any others and you've got this alternating you've got one long 10 minute prog song then you've got a short three and a half minute pop song then you've got another long prog song there may be an instrumental then another pop song and i just found myself marvelling more than anything
00:09:25
Speaker
at the fact that we were hearing synth heavy, keyboard heavy, soft poppy vocals heavy, prog music in 1973. I think there was a moment in each song where you could take out 30 seconds of a chorus or where Peter Gabriel singing in a section and you could say, wow, that sounds like 80s pop. Yeah, it was going 1973 by a predominantly prog band.
00:09:53
Speaker
So, yeah, and that shows you that both Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel, they already have the skills to create 80-spot music for the good and the bad. I mean, they were the guys who were leading that transition.
00:10:09
Speaker
obviously after Peter Gabriel left Genesis and then he became Phil Collins band really. He became the band leader, he became the voice of the band. And it's obviously not the same band. You have the singer only drummer as the lead singer and the singer left to a solo career. So you can't just call it the same band. I mean, yeah, it has the same name, but the
00:10:37
Speaker
Genesis after Peter Gabriel is a completely different thing. If I'm not wrong, I don't even know the name of the album. The first album they recorded with Phil Collins on vocals, still very like prog rock. But so it's obviously they don't change. It took over in 1975. Yeah, that's it. So a couple of years after this album. Yeah. And so so the thing is,
00:11:01
Speaker
He is an amazing singer, of course. Peter Gabriel, though, has this theatrical quality to his vocals, right? He does different voices. He impersonates characters. And if you check any footage from that time, OK, that's another reason why I chose this album. I had a VHS.
00:11:18
Speaker
of the show. I think they played the whole, I think it's on YouTube and I'll send you the link so you can add to the show. So they played this whole album, most of it, and they start with the first song, Dancing with the Moonlight Knight. And you've got this, the band, they have no stage presence at all. So everyone like, they all,
00:11:44
Speaker
They look bored. Phil Collins looks really focused on playing his rums. And everyone else is like, Steve Hacker just sitting on his amp or on a chair, I don't remember, for the whole gig. It was a move. And then you have this majestic figure of Peter Gabriel dressed as a knight.
00:12:04
Speaker
like this beautiful figure with the makeup with everything and he's the character from start to finish and he is the show. And what he says before the first song is the thing I sent you. Can you read that with your best King's English? Is it King's English now? Yes, it has to be. This is what Peter Gabriel would say before the show.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yes, exactly. He would introduce dancing with the moonlight night with those lines. Here we go. Hi, I'm in the English Channel. It is called Exceedingly Wet. I am the voice of Britain before Daily Express. My name is Britannia. This is my song. It is called Dancing with the Moonlit Night. Yeah. Boom. What do you say? It's interesting. I mean, it's quite...
00:13:03
Speaker
I'm just looking at this and you've got a lot of characteristics of England summed up in this paragraph. You've got the English Channel, the Exceedingly Wet, the Daily Express,
Musical Techniques and Innovation of Genesis
00:13:13
Speaker
the voice of Britain. My name is Britannia.
00:13:18
Speaker
But yeah, interesting. I mean, what do you think of that? Well, you should know better than me, but I'll tell you what it says. My name is Britannia. I think the character himself is the culture of the country, isn't it? And it's a bit of a mistake of the traditional English values and all that stuff.
00:13:41
Speaker
but also maybe an acknowledgement of English history. I don't know what it means by that. Do you know, I don't want to patronise you in any way, but it seems like I know something about this album that you might not. Do you know what it's about and do you know why it's titled this way? I think it came from a Labour Party manifesto. It did, but the whole point of the album was because Genesis felt that
00:14:07
Speaker
traditional English culture was dropping and the rise of Americanism around the early 70s. So
00:14:18
Speaker
were they not right? I mean, they were right. You know, I can just go around the corner and grab my Starbucks if I want. Exactly. Yeah. And that's 50 years ago, isn't it? But what you're saying, you know, what did you say? My name is Britannia. What did you follow? You just said you thought Britannia was the character.
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he says my name is Britannia. Exactly. So he's claiming to be the voice of the kingdom, isn't it? So I am Britannia. So for me, that's him, like, incorporating the culture of the UK as a person, as a character. So it feels to me like this is really, really tricky, because it almost falls into the territory of
00:15:06
Speaker
concept albums, but I don't think it's quite that because the lyrics are not connected to themselves as one long story or one big theme, but there are similarities and there's reference of folk music everywhere and there are things that connect to the songs and the lyrics, but I wouldn't call it a concept album, but there is a concept
00:15:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great point, man. I think something you said earlier, which I would touch on later, I've got it in my little last blog, but it's very, very theatrical, very theatrical and very dramatic. Like, one thing I've noticed about the album, and again, I sort of touched upon this when I do my thing at the end,
00:15:56
Speaker
Throughout the songs, especially the Proggy songs, what I found really, really cool that took me by surprise compared to other prog bands is how much time they allow certain sections of music to breathe and just fully, I'm not trying to say, to fully let their purpose be felt. I feel with other prog music,
00:16:24
Speaker
very, very quick, these bands to go into a solo, to go into a 7-8 section, to go into some odd types. Genesis, in all of the long songs, Dancing with the Moonlit Life, Firth of Fifth, Battle of Epping Forest, Cinema Show, they all had moments where they would sit on one riff, one four-bar repeat of music, and repeat it over and over for two minutes. And then, once that had sunk in,
00:16:52
Speaker
then they transitioned to the solo and I felt that was very theatric because it's almost like if you close your eyes and you're hearing the music or nothing's changing in the music you're just going over the same chords or the same riff whatever you know for a minute and a half you can imagine something happening on a stage you know the battle of Epping Forest you can imagine a little battle happening between these gangs I'm sure we'll get to the content of the song later but
00:17:19
Speaker
Because these songs, because they give two minutes to this bit of music and they say, you know what, this bit of music, you do your thing, you let your listener fully engage for a minute and a half and nothing else needs to be done because that's what music is. Exactly. And I feel like those long sections when they transition from one part to another and it's just
00:17:41
Speaker
almost too quiet sometimes. So they come from there's like there's an explosion and then they just melt into this like really quiet section and there's a flute that happens in several songs. And yeah, and so you have the elements of classical music and folk. But
00:18:02
Speaker
The interesting thing about that is it sounds like soundtrack, you know, when you're watching a movie and there's a scene going on, you have that music in the background that is not always intended to be loud and aggressive. Sometimes it's just like it's just background music. So it sounds to me that it's not a soundtrack for a movie, it's a soundtrack for a book.
00:18:22
Speaker
That's how I see it, because it's proper stuff. The way that the storytelling style of the lyrics for me is like a storybook. It's not like it's not like a movie or maybe not even a theatre. Yeah, that's interesting, man. I mean, the album starts off extremely folky. The first vocal melody you hear is sort of reminiscent of like an Irish folk song or something.
Track Analysis: British Culture and Prog Elements
00:18:48
Speaker
But then, what really intrigued me, and I mentioned about this pop thing, I will do my best. I don't know this genre well enough. It's called Neo Soul, and it kind of started coming back. I don't know if you remember, when we were at uni, people started... Yes, everyone was going on about this. Exactly. It was this early 2010s, mid 2010s. And what you're talking about here is
00:19:13
Speaker
How would you characterise Neo Soul? Because it's kind of like, I wouldn't say odd Titan signatures, but unorthodox beats with clean guitars that play loads of notes and then normally a vocal coming over the top.
00:19:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's what it is, isn't it? I think it's summed up really well. Yeah, so yeah, I think that all I wanted to say is that at one minute 20 of Dancing with the Moonlit Night, unorthodox, odd time signatures that sounds exactly like a piece of Neo song music
00:19:44
Speaker
I'd heard a few years ago but happened in Genesis's 1973 album. I'm going to try and find a neo soul song that vaguely resembles what I'm talking about to put in the place to you guys. But yeah, just a little and it comes back at the end. Our Isle of Plenty.
00:20:00
Speaker
Because it's sort of cool, you know that. Exactly. The last song is a two minute song, which could have been just the last bit of the first song. So that is where you really get into a concert album territory, isn't it? You could loop the album and the last song would kind of blend into the first one. Yeah, exactly. Which you couldn't do with a vinyl, but you can do with CD or streaming.
00:20:32
Speaker
What do you want to talk about now? When you said that they allow themselves to stay on those sections for as long as it takes, there's a quote from Tony Banks, a keyboard player,
00:20:51
Speaker
that sums it up. So this is exactly what he says in an interview with Genesis. We just did what appealed to us, really, we didn't worry too much how other people were going to respond to it. You know, freedom, freedom, you do whatever you want to do. And they were clearly like, they were clearly in their own world, like, well, we're going to do this. And in this case, he was actually talking about that song, is it Firth or Fifth?
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's too much for my accent. Yeah, so we're going to get into the songs then, why not? So the first song, yeah, the first song is where the references start. The Wimpy Dreams that he mentioned in the song, and I didn't know it was a popular
00:21:45
Speaker
fast food restaurant in England. So yeah, yeah, yeah, we'd be dreams. So he says that. So is it or it could be also a reference to windy homes, a property development company in England as well. So we don't know. But it's, see, if, if, I mean, I had to research that. So it's not those references, not not not everyone can
00:22:07
Speaker
grasp is not a simple thing. And, and the line he says, live at the beginning of the song, when he goes, you know, oh, you know, I'm the voice of Britain before daily express, you know, so that is when he's going on about that, all those references and stuff. He just
00:22:28
Speaker
in the live concert of the album. He sets the scene for the audience. And one thing I found brilliant is he finishes that line at the beginning. He's talking and out of the blue, he just starts. Can you tell me where I can't realize? And he just goes, and it's like, wow. And that's what I found. I think, I would dare to say this, it's probably my favorite opening track
00:22:57
Speaker
of rock music. I just think it's because it's huge statement is just shocking. You know, I would say Highway Star War Pigs are great as well for different reasons. This one for me is like just vocals and then the guitar comes in is very subtle. Yeah. On the second verse, when the piano joins them, just that one extra layer of instrument
00:23:26
Speaker
It takes the song to a completely different level and it's deep and it gives me the goosebumps. I was listening to the album this week and I listened again this morning before the show and every time I listen to the song, I'm impressed by it every single time.
00:23:46
Speaker
Yeah, interesting thing about it though, as you can hear the tapping technique on guitar, which you might be able to describe better than me. What is a tapping on guitar? Yeah, so it's basically fretting down on a fret as if you're going to play it with a pick.
00:24:04
Speaker
And there's two kinds of ways to tap. You can then play the note with the pick and then with your left hand use one of your other fingers. So if you're using your index finger on a fret, you play the note with a pick in your right hand and you're fretting with your left hand. And then before you finish playing that note, you put another finger on your left hand down to then play the next note up. The alternative to that is
00:24:28
Speaker
having your left index finger on a fret and using your right index finger to tap on the fretboard closer to the, so you're not picking down by the pickups or down the bottom end of the guitar, you're coming almost to match where your other index finger is and you tap alternating using both your index fingers on the fretboard. Just go and search any Van Halen video to have a look to see probably what it's about
00:24:53
Speaker
Exactly. So that's it. So basically, I mean, you weren't really technical there. I like that. That's a really detailed explanation. Basically, you got both hands on the fretboard. So he does both hands. Well, he does that. He does that. But I think he does with the plectrum.
00:25:08
Speaker
Which is a really, really interesting thing. He does the tapping thing using the plectrum because I saw the video. That's why I believe it's what he's doing. But as you said, those those kind of techniques, they became famous with Van Halen. So Steve Hackett was 10 years ahead of his time because I don't know if anyone else was using that sort of techniques at this time. So you were having metal fan. Can you hear?
00:25:40
Speaker
the basis of heavy metal guitar play in this album? Absolutely, man. The following, not the rhythm. Yes, yes, I understand.
00:25:50
Speaker
eruption from 1978's Van Halen debut album, that was the cornerstone for heavy metal guitar to change and to see what else could be done with it, with your pinch harmonics, your dive bombs, your wah-wah pedals, all that stuff. But before that, you've got to look, guitar tapping
00:26:10
Speaker
It really started coming into fruition in the 1980s after, like I said, eruption. But before that, you got the likes of Santana in 1970 with Hope You're Feeling Better. You've got Genesis with The Musical Box in 1971. Steve Hackett again doing his thing. Queen, It's Late from 1977. Judas Priest, Hell Bent for Leather, 1979. All these
00:26:31
Speaker
first instances of guitar tapping, and you said about it with Genesis, but he did it before, he did it two years before, a song called The Musical Box in 1971. All right, so listen to that. So it's probably, well, someone might have done it before, we will never know, but it's probably the first
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah, and the first recording of that in rock music, isn't it? The first recorded song with that. So, I mean, he's still a reference and he was recently touring, Stephen Hackett with his band, playing early Genesis stuff.
Storytelling and Lyrical Complexity in the Album
00:27:08
Speaker
And for loads of the old school Genesis fans, they said that's a proper Genesis gig. That's the Genesis we want to see, which is Steve Hackett's solo career with the band just playing Genesis arrangements as the original versions. None of the pop stuff, of course, because he wasn't part of it. So yeah, so it's like
00:27:29
Speaker
Amazing. So from that amazing prog rock first song, you go straight into I Know What I Like, which is
00:27:41
Speaker
I've heard people say it's almost like a Glen Rock thing. It's a pop song essentially. I hear very Beatles-esque verse, dual vocal harmonies going on. I think there's a sitar in there as well. If it's not a sitar, then it's definitely a guitar trying to sound like a sitar, but it definitely has that Beatles vibe.
00:28:05
Speaker
Um, the riff was rejected by Genesis for the album before because the guy said it sounds too much like the Beatles. Oh wow. I think they, I think they sort of tweaked it and then made it come back. But yeah, again, and this is very reflective what I hear of the 80s pop, the, that synth. I know what I like. And you've got that really
00:28:29
Speaker
It's not overproduced, but it's just the typical sound. I'm not even going to try and do the impression of it, but you just hear it in the chorus, that synth that's going on behind. Very characteristic of Genesis and their pop sound, isn't it? But also very characteristic of pop in the 80s. And this is the first thing I'm getting from this song. Beatles-esque verse with dual vocal harmonies, a very reflective 80s pop with the keyboards. And I think you're hearing that in this 1973 pop song.
00:28:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And it's amazing again, like you can hear the innovation in that, you know, and, and the lyrics. So that's, that's the one I think it's very, very easy to understand, not very complicated references. And he's, again, very theatrical. He's describing characters and how they interact with with each other. And the main character, I love that, like it's, it's just like a working class guy. It's, it's, you know, a lawnmower. And it's,
00:29:26
Speaker
And the album cover, this song is based on the album cover, which was a painting by an artist called Betty Swanwick. I hope I pronounced it correctly. The painting is called The Dream. So that character wasn't there.
00:29:45
Speaker
And they asked her to add him to the painting. And then they, you know, so there's a different version of the original painting with that character. And it's basically this guy just saying, look, this is how I live my life.
00:30:00
Speaker
I don't want to go beyond this. No, it's I'm happy the way I am. And people keep telling me what to do or how to improve in life and this and that. It just doesn't want it. So I know what I like and I like. I know why. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's cool. Nice old message. From from that track, you go into
00:30:16
Speaker
Firth of Fifth which I mean I have to say that the piano at the start of this man is just sublime and actually unusually this week I've been I've sort of re-started listening to the classical stuff I like again Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Bach and to hear piano played like this almost fits in
00:30:42
Speaker
It's a bit of Beethoven, a bit of Brahms, a bit of Schubert, a bit of Genesis, why not? Because it's just so fantastically executed. It's classical and it was intended to be a piano piece on its own. It was written previously, not for the album. And then again, that quote I said from Tony Banks is about this song. They had the privilege to whatever they wanted, regardless of
00:31:09
Speaker
someone else's appearance. And I actually need to know about the space given to instruments in this song. So like what the guy said, I agree that this song, they fantastically give the space to the instruments.
00:31:23
Speaker
And yeah, it's about everyone, isn't it? And it could have been an instrumental song if they wanted to. There's so much to it. It's almost like you don't need the vocals. But then again, when Peter Gabriel is singing, you just have to listen. He's just brilliant. And the vocals, everything just kicks in, isn't it?
00:31:44
Speaker
after the piano intro. So it feels like it's going to be a classical piece and then the whole band just comes in and it's explosive. They come in with kind of like a hard rock riff with that distorted descending guitar. So the mood changes quite quickly. But I think it's a fantastic song. My favourite of the album, if I'm being honest.
00:32:05
Speaker
It's a brilliant song. It's regarded as one of the best prog rock songs ever written. Really? Yeah. I can understand why. Yeah, when Genesis did the recent reunion tour, the last tour with Phil Collins on vocals, they didn't have Peter Gabriel back to the band. So they're still doing the pop stuff, but they've played this intro.
00:32:28
Speaker
and they've played that because it's so iconic they need to play. It's just one of those things they need to do. The interesting thing is you have both talking about time signatures, you have 13, 16 and 15, 16 time signatures that interest like anyone who's a musician that is completely insane. And it's because okay, he's playing on his own. So
00:32:53
Speaker
probably didn't even think about time signatures. It's just like, you know, hammering the piano in any way you want it to. And it's just and it sounds amazing. And I've heard even when we went to music university, I've heard, you know, I've listened to people practicing that piano because it's it's one of those things. If you are a piano player, you just need to know the song.
00:33:14
Speaker
Yeah, it is executed. Yeah. And the title refers to a river in Scotland, the River Forth. See, famously known as the first of the. That's it. Again, more hints back to Britain. You know, we really are there. They are hitting it home that they they care about the British culture in this album, aren't they? Yeah, they do. They do. It's interesting, isn't it? Like the fact that they are
00:33:45
Speaker
criticizing that, that's the political thing, like we don't want to be so Americanized, we want to preserve our culture, which is, and at the same time, making a reference to the Labour Party manifest, so they were criticizing Americanism. And it's funny, because it's like you have a, how things were different, you have the
00:34:07
Speaker
are the left-wing manifesto talking about preserving the culture which is a conservative. That is, yeah, I really isn't. It's interesting because it's basically, you know, how
00:34:22
Speaker
culture can be beyond politics, it can go beyond politics in that sense. It's interesting, I really like the whole concept and the whole theatrical thing about it. But then, okay, after that beautiful, extremely prog rock song,
00:34:41
Speaker
You just get into, I'll tell you this, this is the one song I didn't like when I first listened to the album. And it's the only one with Phil Collins on vocals. Phil Collins, as a drummer, I'm a Phil Collins fan, of course. And I think he's, regardless of, for some of the rock listeners, regardless of Phil Collins, like pop career,
00:35:05
Speaker
being the main thing it did, and the thing it did for longer, I still think he's a rock musician, he's a rock drummer, and he proved it in this album. So the fact that he just goes to, he takes the lead vocals for one song, having Peter Gabriel as the lead singer of the band,
00:35:24
Speaker
I mean, why would you do that? And how can you deliver? And he did, I think. Now, I didn't like the songs, just, you know, romantic pop ballad acoustic. Now I can, it sounded like a BG song to me. And I liked them anyway, but I didn't like it. I think, oh, this song just doesn't belong to the album. I used to skip that song. And now I've listened to it again. It's like,
00:35:49
Speaker
It's actually a really beautiful piece of pop music. It's pop music, a bit of folk maybe, but the way they strum the guitars is very simple, very basic. Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me, I've put my notes here. It's kind of like the softer songs that Greg Lake used to sing with ELP. There you go. Which might be...
00:36:10
Speaker
It's kind of essential to that kind of music to break from the complexity of the previous song, isn't it? Very good point. I'll tell you honestly, and this is linked to what you just said.
00:36:24
Speaker
I'll tell you my monologue, but I struggled with this album, not in terms of not liking it, but when so much happened, when we did Yes, it was okay, because you said, go and check these songs, go and check this, and I think here's an 18-minute song, but I'm not analyzing or assessing it, I'm just listening to get some characteristics. Because we're doing an album today,
00:36:45
Speaker
had to go in. And I'm not putting my musical analysis hat on, but I'm trying to listen for things. But when you've got songs that are so long, it's hard to pick out characteristics of songs when they change every two minutes. It's hard to find a certain theme. So I think that what you said is perfect because
00:37:08
Speaker
You've got the long with Dancing with the Moonlit Night, and then you've got the short with the poppy I Know What I Like. Then you've got long again with Firth of Fifth and then More for Me. So I think you're absolutely correct as in these little short three or four minute songs. I mean, again, four minutes is too long for a radio, but in terms of props... Yeah, in terms of props, really short. It feels like a punk song. It's like two minutes. Having it in between those long songs really does break it up. And we noticed that Emerson, Lake and Palmer did that.
00:37:37
Speaker
yes do that as well. So I wonder if we are seeing early characteristics or I mean prog rock spins going since the late 60s so maybe not early characteristics but set characteristics of progressive rock music and how to structure an album because it's important man isn't it?
00:37:53
Speaker
Yeah, it is. I think as well, if Peter Gabriel had all that theatrical influence, I can't believe he's not into theatre. He most certainly is. So as a storyteller, you need to have like some peaks of tension or story and complexity and clashes between characters. You have the climax at some point in the story.
00:38:23
Speaker
But you need to release in contrast to that tension. You know at that point when there's been a war in a movie, whatever, and there's that one scene after the war, someone's in a hospital just having a conversation and talking to a friend, whatever. It's that kind of vibe to me. It just came from a
00:38:42
Speaker
really tense moment into that kind of, okay, let's just chill and listen to something more subtle. And I think they totally thought about the track list when they were doing this, like, maybe we need to put those, they're like the second and the fourth song, like, very, very mild in terms of
00:39:04
Speaker
that musicianship comparing to the third song. So that makes a lot of sense. So they made us a sandwich of a prog sandwich. As I mentioned, yeah, sorry.
00:39:21
Speaker
I was going to say that the shorter songs are the bread and the longer songs are the cheese, the salami. Exactly. I think they've done it really well. There's a long album, eight songs, 53 minutes, if I'm not wrong. It's interesting how can a long album feel. In my opinion, it feels short. When I finished listening, I was like, I want to go back to the beginning and listen to the first song again.
00:39:47
Speaker
And so that leads us. I think I'm going to carry on with the song list because it's not too many songs. They're long, but not too many.
Later Tracks: Musical and Classical Influences
00:39:54
Speaker
So the battle of Epic Forest, that was definitely when I first heard the hardest one for me to understand because of the lyrics. But now
00:40:06
Speaker
I believe it's just like the simplest of all these stories they're telling, apart from more for me, which is just a relationship not working well. But this one is, it's a battle of gangs. And he's slapping.
00:40:24
Speaker
So I described the cars and the gangsters. But that's what I like about it. Okay. I would say, I would dare to say this is the closest Frog Rock ever got to hip-hop. This is a gangster song.
00:40:48
Speaker
because David is describing those dodgy characters from East London and it's fast paced in terms of vocals and it is the least melodic, melodical vocal line of the whole album. His voice is still amazing, he's still like
00:41:06
Speaker
a perfectly tuned all the time. It's beautiful, but it's almost or as close as you would get to spoken words. You can, are you right? Because he does that Cockney accent, doesn't he? Oh, he does at some point, yeah. About five minutes 45. Again, because these are long songs, any bits I noticed, I did just take a little time check out. At five minutes 45, he does this, he has this kind of avant-garde vocal style, almost art pop like we heard with Bowie in Hunky Dory, very Louis desk.
00:41:36
Speaker
You're right, the spoken word thing. He sings, but there is a lot of time where he does the Cockney accent, the avant-garde vocals, where he's having a conversation with you.
00:41:44
Speaker
Exactly. And it's cool, isn't it? Because when I first heard the song, without understanding much of English, it was like, oh, this is about like a medieval battle, isn't it? And it sounds it, the style, it's got a medieval sound, isn't it? Exactly. It starts with, that's what I find beautiful about the beginning and the ending of this show. So it starts with a marching snare drum, like
00:42:05
Speaker
perfectly executed by Phil Collins. Like, technically speaking, it's just perfect. If you're a drummer, listen to that. It's just amazing. From the tuning of this ne'er to the execution of the technique itself. So you have that marching. It's ne'er with flute, isn't it?
00:42:21
Speaker
the beginning. So it does it does sound like it could be a medieval or colonial times, you know, and that's the I think that that's the intention. Right. And that the end. So so isn't that a reference to the fact that since the beginning of times, people fight for territory and they kill themselves for stupid reasons and stuff like that. And at the very end,
00:42:46
Speaker
They criticize this kind of stuff with a perfect line. There's no one left alive. It must be a draw.
00:42:56
Speaker
But, you know, I was reading about this song and it's a bit of a ballad. And just for clarity, what ballad means literally in music terms means a song that tells a story. I know that these days we think a ballad is a slow song that you can romantically dance to. But it is a ballad in terms of it's telling a story. And he wrote characters in these battles. And the band thought that the lyrics weren't as serious as they should be because he's talking about a battle going on between gangs. And in the end,
00:43:25
Speaker
One of the last or in the last verse or the last section, he talks about the winner being chosen by the flip of a coin.
00:43:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's crazy. Because that goes back to what you said about a draw, you find a drop because everyone but the funny thing is like everyone died. So it's a draw. I love that. That is that is like, for me, that's British humor. It's best because that's a total that's a total mistake. Like, oh, everyone died. So it must be a draw. Okay, if it's a draw, we need to flip the car. See what
00:44:02
Speaker
There's no one alive. Why would you pick a winner? It's just brilliant. Let's flip the coin. Then track six of the album comes the song after the ordeal and I'm sure the ordeal being the battle and this is after it and it is a lovely kind of pseudo-classical song written by Hackett and Rutherford.
00:44:27
Speaker
There is elements of the poppier stuff that creeps in on top of this orchestral performance, isn't it? Yeah. Because you've got this classical music and actually, you know, a lot of the band didn't want it on the album, apparently, and it was intended to be a fully electric, but then they turned it acoustic, which turns electric halfway through. It does, yes. But even in the start, you've got it acoustic, but also you've got the keyboards underneath as well.
00:44:54
Speaker
Yeah, which is funny because it's kind of the contrast of these acoustic classical instruments, which is reflecting the old times, classical music, English heritage, whatever, and then your modern synths and keyboards coming in, the newer times, the Americanism, you know, just the contrast.
00:45:10
Speaker
Well, maybe that was intentional. If it wasn't, it worked anyway. And again, when you don't expect anything to happen, we think, well, that's clearly like a transition between two songs, an instrumental transition. Then halfway through, you just have the groove and the guitar solo. So it becomes even more electric and more groovy halfway through. So it sounds to me like a two-part song.
00:45:37
Speaker
I agree. Yeah, no, I agree with that. Should I have a cinema show? Cinema show.
Theatrical Elements and Album's Cohesive Journey
00:45:42
Speaker
So if you consider, you know, Eye of Plenty is again a transition, maybe, or a reference to the beginning of the album. So that would be effectively the last song the cinema show would be. Yes. To all effects, the actual ending of the album, in my opinion. And yeah, so let's go into that. That's more than a version of Romeo and Juliet, isn't it?
00:46:07
Speaker
What do you mean, lyrically? Oh, it is. He mentions Romeo and Juliet in the story. She's late for her cinema show. I mean, they go into the cinema and stuff like that. So the lyrics were written by Tony Banks and Ruta Ford as well, so the bass player.
00:46:30
Speaker
So they were actually inspired, though, by a T.S. Eliot poem called The Wasteland. So again, more inspiration from other sources like poetry, you know. Yeah, and exactly. And it's slightly more sexualized than Shakespeare would do for this version of their version of Romeo and Juliet. So Romeo is he's got some clear intentions of what he wants to do with it. And it's and it's
00:47:00
Speaker
So you have basically British poetry, you have Shakespeare and T.S. Eliot and Greek mythology, and it's like, it's all in there. It is, yeah, you're right. But musically, we again, we've got another very orchestral style song. You've got the flute in there, you've got the oboe, you've got the 12 string guitars, you've got the dual vocal harmonies as well. I thought it was really nice. And again,
00:47:29
Speaker
it's just funny how heavily the classical influence came in towards the later part of the album it's definitely there at the start but they kind of lean on it more towards the end which i love um but yeah then the second half of the song again another song that changes halfway through where it just goes into seven eight and you've got that keyboard solo isn't that a fantastic solo it is and um
00:47:53
Speaker
Well, as a drummer, I have to mention, they say it goes to seven, eight, right? So you have like Phil Collins playing those really complex time signatures, really complex rhythms, and he couldn't read music. He still can't read music. He's not a trained musician in that sense. And he's just a very, very musical guy, isn't it?
00:48:21
Speaker
I've got to say there's a drumming in this album, it's perfect, it's starting to finish. Phil Collins is, in my opinion, at that time he was as good as Karl Palmer, as Bill Bruford, all like a prog rock drummer as you can possibly mention. He was as good as those guys, but people still remember him as a lead singer.
00:48:43
Speaker
well for that very reason it's why i've never considered him to be one of the top drummers because you know i've always thought of him as the singer and the pop singer of genesis never thought of him as a prog drummer but he really does shine on this album and especially this song the cinema show
00:48:59
Speaker
This is another song where I thought the space for the musical elements to breathe were fantastic. A lot of repeated musical phrases and sections but ultimately it's satisfying. Think of the stage show we're talking about, think of the book Felipe talked about. Imagine you're at a section in a book and there's a sort of a scene that's going on and
00:49:17
Speaker
stuff's happening but it's happening between characters and in the background you just got this music going over and over that's perfect and it's correct and it's appropriate but you just got it going over and over and until that scene's finished and you're ready to move on something else i.e a keyboard solo you just keep hearing it and it builds you up perfectly to take you into that keyboard solo fantastic arrangements and songwriting on this album man isn't it they they they really have nailed it yes they have they have and i think
00:49:45
Speaker
It just occurred to me that this album for me is like a perfect soundtrack for a theatrical storytelling of British culture. That's how I see it.
00:50:05
Speaker
I can imagine with what you just said happening, you'd go into this album asking to remove the vocals from the album, leaving the music and then writing scenes over each song. Nothing against the vocals, they're fantastic. But just in terms of putting on a theatre show of British culture, you could write scenes with actors for each section of the songs, couldn't you?
00:50:30
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. It's what it is. And you could even say that Peter Gabriel is like the
00:50:40
Speaker
the main character in a theater play and you have probably Tony Banks as the director. It's something like that. It's perfectly executed all the way through. Whatever idea they have in mind, I think they've managed to accomplish. What an album. What an album.
Defining the Album as a Classic
00:51:06
Speaker
What did you have a favorite song?
00:51:10
Speaker
the opening track for sure. But you said that, yeah, you love that. Yeah, I think it's no, no, it's not because I said it's my favourite opening track, but could be good, but it's still my favourite song in the album, which it's, it's hard when you start with such a good song, and you have to match that quality throughout the whole album, which I think they did anyway. That's a really good point, because
00:51:32
Speaker
with yeah I struggle in general with Prague because it's not the sort of music I listen to so if there's a sort if you've started me off with an 18 minute song no not this album just sort of giving example if you start me off with an 18 minute song then you
00:51:51
Speaker
to have held my attention for that long. And I don't mean me, Laz, I mean, in general, the listener, to have held my attention for that long. You've got to match it with the following songs, because then you're asking, OK, well, we did the 18-minute song. Fucking hell, now there's a 12-minute song to come. And if you're not enjoying it, it's going to be hard to carry on. But you're right that the quality of this album, whilst I do think the first track is probably one of the best, I like Firth of Fifth, which is the third song.
00:52:19
Speaker
It all matches up, the quality is all there, it's consistent throughout the album, isn't it?
00:52:24
Speaker
Yes, it is. Fantastic song on your music to achieve it. Yeah, brilliant stuff. For me, every time they go into a quiet section, you feel like, okay, cool. That's it. That's it. They're going to just lead to the end and then something comes, something happens. They keep surprising me. And they still surprise me to this day after having listened to this album, I don't know, a hundred times, something like that.
00:52:50
Speaker
I think it's a good place to wrap things up. What's rock and roll about this album to you? What makes this album a classic rock and roll album that you think everyone should listen to, for what reasons? Wow. That stuff. I think it's, as we said time and time again, the musical freedom is the fact that they don't bother
00:53:17
Speaker
playing a piece of classical music as an introduction to something that sounds almost like hard rock, just before playing your romantic pop ballad on acoustic guitar. So like the fact that they don't really care what's going to happen next in a certain way. It's very polished. It's like we can do whatever. We could just play 15 minutes of songs
00:53:43
Speaker
highly complex but we decided to stick this four minute pop ballad in the middle because whatever because that's what we want to do and we decided to give the lead vocals to the drummer for one song so that is like that freedom of telling the story with quality
00:54:02
Speaker
but in any way you want. They piece things together. They put like bits and pieces of different compositions and make one song out of it. That's very rock and roll to me. They clearly have pieces of songs that could have been different songs. We're going to make one song out of all of this. This is very rock and roll specifically.
00:54:26
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you, man. I agree with you. That's great stuff, man. I'll give you my little, I do the little as monologue thing. Yes. I liked it. I thought there were some songs on there that I would go back and listen to, but it was all just slightly too poppy for me. But again, no slight on the album and I'm here to be objective. So here's my, but just so you know, my thoughts going into my little monologue.
00:54:49
Speaker
So I've got something I enjoyed about the album was the blend between prog, rock and pop. They made effortless transitions from one to the other. Peter Gabriel's lead vocals really soft and suit the pop style whilst the music has enough of each other's style to create a balanced approach to the music. And what I mean by this is that
00:55:08
Speaker
There are moments of progginess with odd time signatures, dissonant and jazzy chords that stand out but then to counter that there are plenty of really agreeable hard rock and pop style melodies and music that is much more agreeable to the listener and makes for a much more pleasant listening experience.
00:55:24
Speaker
The other aspect I loved is how much time they gave to the music in their songs. I've already mentioned this. They let certain riffs and sections go on and breathe as opposed to just jumping from section to section unnecessarily. It really built up and prepared you for the oncoming solo as opposed to just jumping straight into a solo which I know some prog bands do.
00:55:42
Speaker
I think the blend of these styles which we're hearing takes it away from the wanky prog style that we've touched on before but because of the pop influence it seems a lot more like a musical theatre score than a prog album and for that reason it was enjoyable. Listening to it for the story, you know the story they've written, listening to it as an experience and from the first note he sings of the whole album
00:56:07
Speaker
the whole thing felt theatrical. And if I don't think of it as, oh yeah, I'm going to drive here today, what shall I put on? What shall I put on? More full of me. No, it has to be the whole experience. And I think that's what they wanted for it. And I think that's what they wrote for. So yeah, there's my thoughts on the album.
00:56:24
Speaker
Wow. Oh, wow, man. As usual, I really, really enjoyed the monologue. It's definitely my favorite part of the show, especially because I don't need to say anything on that part. Yeah, man, you described it really well. And it's interesting to think that both Peter Gaber and Phil Collins went on to
00:56:45
Speaker
create the template for modern pop music pretty much in the 80s. They're so influential. As I mentioned, songs like Sledgehammer by Peter Gabriel and In the Air Tonight by Phil Collins, they changed the way people listen to and play and write pop music.
00:57:08
Speaker
I just, you can tell that in order to do that, in order to recreate a style, you need to be musically really good. And I'm not into pop music as much as I am into rock music, of course, that's why we have the show, isn't it?
00:57:25
Speaker
But the fact that they started together in a prog rock band, I think is what allowed them to expand their music vocabulary and made them the extremely creative artist that they are. I love the fact that, you know, at the end of last year, we did Rumours by Fleetwood Mac, didn't we? And that's an album that is so hugely credited with pushing with the transition from rock into pop music in the late 70s.
00:57:54
Speaker
yet five years before that you've got this one doing the same thing in a different country. I just love it. I love the genealogy of music, man, because
00:58:03
Speaker
You can hear a pop song from 1982 and you can, in it, I don't have any in mind, I'm just saying generally, and in it, you can hear the harmonies and production from rumours, but yet you can hear the synths and softness of the vocals from Genesis. I fucking love it, man. It's great, isn't it? It is great. I mean, especially when you can actually create without
00:58:27
Speaker
without having to please anyone. And those geniuses of rock music, they were guys who were not trying to please. They would try to please themselves. And accidentally, they would reach people and communicate with a huge number of people, I guess.
00:58:50
Speaker
I think that's one thing that's missing nowadays in music, which is just allow the artist to do whatever they want and let's see if it sells instead of thinking about how to make a commercial before you actually start writing songs.
Episode Recap and Closing Banter
00:59:05
Speaker
There's a fantastic Frank Zapf of Interview where he does this for a couple of minutes and he just talks about, he says there was a huge transition from the 70s to the 80s where in the 70s you had producers and label executives saying
00:59:20
Speaker
let's give it a shot you know bands like Pink Floyd like Genesis let's give it a go but then as the 70s went on and sort of turned into the 80s you had more no we can't take a risk on this it's got to be three minutes it's got to have a lovely chorus we can't take a risk on this and Zappa just said well you know what happened to the days of who knows let's let's give it a go so that's a fantastic interview one of my favorite ones so i'll i'll put that as a youtube video along with the show notes um but yeah anyway good good place to end thanks for choosing like i said you know
00:59:50
Speaker
I'm happy to say it wasn't anywhere near one of my favourite albums that we've done or that I prefer other Genesis stuff, you know, but it was so good to get into it and see what was under their skin and getting into their mind about this battles in Epping Forest, about the decline of English culture and the rise of Americanism. And if you got gangster frog, gangster frog.
01:00:14
Speaker
But no, make no mistake, man, just because it wasn't my favourite album, it was still a pleasure to listen to and a pleasure to hear, executed so fantastically well by a fantastic band, isn't it?
01:00:25
Speaker
Yeah, it is. Amazing musicians. Excellent. Anyway, right, guys. Well, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Long Live Rock and Roll podcast. As usual, we'll be with you again two weeks from now. Felipe, where can they find us? You guys can find us on a place called the Internet. One day I want us to say you can actually find us on page 300 of the Yellow Pages book where we're listed under a private business. Like the old pages.
01:00:52
Speaker
How do I find your plumbing company? Oh, well, we're in the Yellow Pages. Oh, so I've got to get Yellow Pages. I've got to go to plumbing. No, you just Google it now. We should do the opposite. We should be the answer. Yeah, just go back to the Yellow Pages. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, yeah, you can find us on the internet. Thanks for being with us again.
01:01:11
Speaker
remember don't do anything I wouldn't do and and keep on rocking everyone yeah never do anything Felipe wouldn't do thanks guys it's been a pleasure and as always long live rock and roll