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53: Teaching as a Nerdy Introvert w/ Jessamyn Neuhaus (Geeky Pedagogy)
16 Plays6 years ago
Dr. Jessamyn Neuhaus is author of Geeky Pedagogy: A Guide for Intellectuals, Introverts, and Nerds Who Want to Be Effective Teachers, which releases on September 1st, 2019. Jessamyn is a full-time professor at SUNY Plattsburgh, teaching US history, pop culture history, history methodology, as well as “Superheroes in US Culture” and “The Apocalypse in USU Pop Culture.”
It’s only fitting that I recorded this episode with a D.C. Comics shirt, just after watching an episode of The Boys. Jessamyn and I speak about what introverted teachers bring to the classroom, how we can engage introverted students, the problems with the loud and “inspiring superteacher narrative”, and how embracing nerdom/being authentic is paramount to success.
As an introvert, I struggled in professional development, specifically motivational speakers, who made me believe that the best teachers had “Robin Williams” moments (which we discuss on this podcast!) Certainly, this isn’t to berate those who are loud, inspiring, and engaging - but us “nerdy folks” would not do well in a profession that requires that skill-set. I worry that many educators who choose this path and read certain teaching strategy books will come to believe that teaching isn’t for them - solely because of the false narrative of what “good teaching” can look like. Jessamyn and I dive into this and what we can do to change the narrative.
RESOURCES
- Geeky Pedagogy Website
- Preorder/Order the Book (West Virginia University Press)
- Teaching Struggling Students by Laura Harrison
FURTHER LISTENING
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Resources
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey there, and welcome to Things Fall Apart from the Human Restoration Project.
00:00:15
Speaker
My name is Chris, and I'm a high school digital media and design educator in Springfield, Ohio.
00:00:21
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This episode is brought to you by our Patreon supporters, three of whom are Dino Lowe, Stephanie Hearth, and Lisa Fiber.
00:00:28
Speaker
Thank you for your ongoing support.
00:00:30
Speaker
You can find out more about the Human Restoration Project on humanrestorationproject.org and use the Twitter handle at humrespro.com.
00:00:38
Speaker
Check out our recently released deprogramming guide, which is a collection of activities to introduce students to progressive ed, such as restorative justice and critical pedagogy, plus our other new resource, the Ungrading Handbook, which gives you tools and resources to begin a journey toward gradeless learning.
00:00:56
Speaker
To me, it's not related.
Meet Dr. Jesmyn Newhouse
00:01:07
Speaker
Today, we're joined by Dr. Jesmyn Newhouse, author of the new book, Geeky Pedagogy, a guide for intellectuals, introverts, and nerds who want to be effective teachers, which you can preorder through the West Virginia University Press.
00:01:20
Speaker
It releases on September 1st, 2019.
00:01:22
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In this episode, Jesmyn and I talk about what it means to be an introverted teacher, how we can engage quieter students, and the mythos surrounding the typically loud, quote unquote, passionate educator.
00:01:33
Speaker
Jessamyn is a full-time professor at SUNY Plattsburgh, where she teaches American history, pop culture, and history methodology, as well as superheroes in U.S. culture and the apocalypse in U.S. popular culture.
00:01:45
Speaker
Jessamyn facilitates professional development, hosts teaching conferences, develops online resources, and consults faculty on effective teaching.
00:01:53
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You can learn more at geekypedagogy.com.
00:01:56
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The topic of your book that we'll relate into right now is
00:02:00
Speaker
geeky pedagogy yes and if you can't judge by the way I look or the way I'm dressed or anything about the podcast in general obviously I am in your camp yeah so I can tell yeah so I like to recognize each other so I want to hear more about then this this upcoming book that you have coming out called geeky pedagogy can you give us an overview
00:02:21
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For as long as I can remember, I've loved to read and write and think.
00:02:27
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I've always been a huge introvert.
00:02:29
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I need a lot of solitude to function.
00:02:32
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And I've done well academically too.
00:02:34
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But my son, on the other hand,
00:02:37
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He is an off-the-charts extrovert, and he's a pretty lackadaisical student.
00:02:44
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And watching him grow up and go through the education system made me realize how differently he and I experience school.
00:02:54
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As I say in the acknowledgments section of my book, living with him and with my husband, who's a lot like him, has been a master class in all the differences between nerds and normals.
00:03:07
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So that's been on my mind for a long time and a big part of what inspired this book.
00:03:12
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Nobody was saying what I think is pretty self-evident.
Teaching Myths and Strategies
00:03:16
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The people who earn advanced degrees are by and large pretty nerdy.
00:03:22
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And that's not as consistently true in high school and elementary, but generally speaking, really good students are drawn to education as a profession.
00:03:33
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And that's as it should be.
00:03:34
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We geeks and nerds are the experts in our fields.
00:03:39
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And introverts are also disproportionately represented in academia because we take more easily to those long hours of isolated study that's required to earn an advanced degree.
00:03:51
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I also wanted to get more faculty focusing on being effective teachers.
00:03:57
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And I use that word deliberately because
00:03:59
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I understand why scholars of teaching and learning, and I think you can tell me if this is true, I think in professional development for high school and elementary teachers as well, I understand why people use terms like excellent teachers, outstanding teachers, the best teachers.
00:04:17
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But I think those terms feed into widespread and
00:04:22
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and for teachers, disempowering myths about teaching.
00:04:26
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Myths like good teachers are born, not made.
00:04:30
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Myths like only the most outstanding, life-changing super teachers are having an impact on student learning.
00:04:37
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Robin Williams in Poet Society, Captain, my captain, those are the only good teachers.
00:04:42
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And I think those myths and that way of talking about teaching really undermines teaching self-efficacy, setting up such high standards that instead of
00:04:51
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helping faculty and teachers feel confident.
00:04:54
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It can feed doubts and insecurities about teaching.
00:04:56
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I began a Twitter account in January and my most liked tweet by far has been a joke about how even if 19 out of 20 students in your class are doing fantastically well, you tend to focus on the one student who's not and judge your own teaching efficacy by that one student.
00:05:18
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And I think we need to do a better job of helping faculty fight those unrealistic standards.
00:05:24
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One way I do that is to use us and we when I'm talking about teaching.
00:05:29
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I want to create a sense of shared undertaking with my readers.
00:05:34
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You know students who hear a teacher repeatedly refer to our class, our work, our discussions are more likely to view themselves as members of a learning community.
00:05:45
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and to maybe, hopefully, ideally, be more aware of their own responsibilities for advancing their learning and contributing to a positive classroom environment.
00:05:54
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I've seen so many scholars of teaching and learning authors and presenters who hope to invite others to join the teaching commons to enter into a conversation about teaching, but they undermine this goal by handing down these rigid dictates from on high.
00:06:12
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Make sure you do such and such.
00:06:14
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You must do this and that.
00:06:16
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Make sure you never forget blah-de-blah.
00:06:19
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As if the person writing isn't a teacher themselves, someone who has to constantly learn and relearn effective pedagogy.
00:06:26
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So in contrast, I deliberately refer to us and we, I talk about all my major teaching fails and how I got better after.
00:06:36
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It's one of the ways I want to build confidence in teaching self-efficacy.
00:06:40
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One other thing I wanted to do was really bridge the divide between scholarship of teaching and learning converts and faculty who are due to or even resistant to professional development.
00:06:53
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Now, I'm not sure if this is as prevalent among
00:06:56
Speaker
high school and elementary teachers, but so much of the conversation about college teaching splits along these two extreme poles.
00:07:06
Speaker
So on one side, you have
00:07:08
Speaker
Faculty, pro-student, they're ultra-caring, they're practically perfect, they never have any trouble with student incivility.
00:07:16
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Anyone who expresses any frustration about students is totally wrong.
00:07:20
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Then on the other side, faculty who are completely burned out, just nothing but pessimistic and cynical.
00:07:27
Speaker
And I'd like a lot more conversation in the middle.
00:07:30
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That's the exact same, by the way.
00:07:32
Speaker
There's no difference in our professional development.
00:07:35
Speaker
Okay, good.
00:07:36
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Yes.
00:07:36
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So yes, we need to build compassion.
00:07:39
Speaker
We have to be understanding.
00:07:41
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But yes, also, sometimes students are irritating because they're people and people can be irritating.
00:07:47
Speaker
And teaching is really, really hard.
00:07:49
Speaker
The one last point, the other thing that inspired me to write the book was that I want to see more professional development that repeatedly acknowledges the importance of our individual teaching context.
00:08:02
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what works for one teacher just might not work or not work exactly the same way for another.
00:08:10
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And even what worked for you in one class may not work as well in another.
00:08:16
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Like
Challenges for Introverted Teachers
00:08:17
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the joke I made in my 9 a.m.
00:08:19
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class falls totally flat in my 10 a.m.
00:08:22
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class.
00:08:22
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That's because they're different classes.
00:08:25
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This is widely known fact about teaching and learning.
00:08:27
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So it's not that I'm saying anything new, but I don't think it's acknowledged consistently enough, especially for new teachers.
00:08:34
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Instead, there's this sense, well, if you just do this, you'll always get that result.
00:08:39
Speaker
And that's just not nuanced enough.
00:08:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:42
Speaker
And speaking of new teachers and relating it back to that introvert point, you brought up before this idea of, and I'm going to steal Cornelius Minor's words here from a couple of podcasts back.
00:08:52
Speaker
He wrote in his book, Yes.
00:08:54
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Teaching is often viewed as performative, but it's actually relational.
00:08:58
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And, you know, speaking of Robin Williams, you know, I wonder if, you know, some introverts aren't turned off from going into, especially K-12, because of that notion of seeing on TV the best teachers being someone who's very over the top.
00:09:13
Speaker
And I mean, I am as far as you possibly can be from Robin Williams when I'm teaching my class.
00:09:19
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And I remember distinctively when I was student teaching, we had a professional development
00:09:24
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where they brought in a Myers-Briggs personality test person, which, you know, people have different opinions about what that is.
00:09:29
Speaker
But introvert, extrovert is pretty clear and concise.
00:09:33
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It is.
00:09:33
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And I remember I was one of the two people in the room who was an introvert in a professional development of probably 40 people, you know, give or take.
00:09:43
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And I was a student teacher and everyone else was like a seasoned veteran.
00:09:46
Speaker
Wow.
00:09:48
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And, you know, that feels really awkward at first.
00:09:49
Speaker
It's like, man, am I like going into like the wrong field?
00:09:51
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Can you survive in this profession if you're constantly surrounded by people?
00:09:57
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It never bothered me unless I felt like I was pressured to be that performative teacher.
00:10:01
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Because I feel like if I were going in this profession acting over the top all the time, it wouldn't work very well for me.
00:10:07
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And I worry sometimes that introverted teachers turn to books or teaching strategies that reflect this, like, you got to be, like, given it 120%.
00:10:18
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In a certain context, that's a very bad way to look at things.
00:10:22
Speaker
I understand the idea, like, you should be working really hard and, like, read books and care about things.
00:10:26
Speaker
But if you're going into your room like running around and acting like it's like a, you know, a Comic Con or something, it's not that's not how life is.
00:10:33
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That's not that's not how a normal class goes.
00:10:36
Speaker
Could you speak to a little bit more about the state of the introverted teacher and what that looks like in a college context?
00:10:43
Speaker
And it's funny, in a higher education professional development, that ratio would be exactly flipped.
00:10:50
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I'd say maybe there'd be one or two extroverts in the room.
00:10:53
Speaker
But the point that you're getting at and that I want to emphasize is the need for
00:11:00
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authenticity and fully acknowledging that you're an introvert is key to any of the successful social navigating that you have to do.
00:11:12
Speaker
And you do have to do it.
00:11:13
Speaker
And that's why writing a book about teaching to geeks, introverts, and nerds is more than just a gimmick.
00:11:20
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It really goes to the heart of my argument, which is that we as a group, we do face
00:11:26
Speaker
certain obstacles to effective teaching and learning, effective communication, building rapport with students, fostering productive professional social interaction with students.
00:11:39
Speaker
Those can be hard, a little bit harder for us as a group.
00:11:43
Speaker
And especially because if we've been highly successful academically elsewhere, and that doesn't magically transform into
00:11:50
Speaker
effective teaching, that could be discouraging.
00:11:53
Speaker
But the other part of my argument is that we also bring important and necessary skills to teaching effectively because to teach effectively, you have to keep learning and relearning how to teach effectively.
00:12:07
Speaker
And as a group, we are incredibly good learners.
00:12:11
Speaker
Don't ask me to play sports ball.
00:12:15
Speaker
Don't ask me to talk to people at a party or even like to call my best friend very often.
00:12:21
Speaker
Give me a homework assignment.
00:12:23
Speaker
Give me something to learn.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yes.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yes, please.
00:12:26
Speaker
We're passionate about our subject.
00:12:28
Speaker
We're great at learning and we can draw on that passion to create what I call a
00:12:35
Speaker
geek culture of sharing pedagogy.
00:12:38
Speaker
So that is creating classrooms and instruction that invites everyone into the study of whatever crazy topic it is we love with all our dorky hearts.
00:12:48
Speaker
So instead of geek gatekeeping, and I think you know what I mean by geek gatekeeping, beyond saying, well, you're not the expert, I know more, you're not a real fan.
00:12:57
Speaker
Keeping out people, a geek culture of sharing is inviting people in.
00:13:02
Speaker
And saying, look at how I love this thing, this crazy nerdy thing with all my heart.
00:13:09
Speaker
I think you'll love this thing too.
00:13:11
Speaker
It's not going to look the same for everybody.
00:13:13
Speaker
An introvert shares that passion differently.
00:13:16
Speaker
Effective teaching takes all kinds of different forms and different ways of expression.
00:13:23
Speaker
Students can respond to your passion, even if there's a weakness in another area of your pedagogy, even if you don't run screaming up and down the aisles and it's a party every day in your classroom.
00:13:35
Speaker
They will respond to the passion you have for your topic.
00:13:40
Speaker
That's true for everybody.
00:13:41
Speaker
And it's just a fact of how humans learn as well.
00:13:45
Speaker
And you inspire curiosity.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:47
Speaker
And I want to jump into it and acknowledge the flip side, which is when you were speaking about, you know, the fact that this is obvious, but many teachers excelled academically in school.
00:13:59
Speaker
However, that can also lead to some problems because then you go back into the room and you teach a lot like your quote unquote favorite teacher, which that was probably not everyone's favorite teacher because you were really good at school.
00:14:14
Speaker
So therefore, you like the teacher who catered to the people who are really good at school, but probably 80% of the room isn't the same as I bode as you.
00:14:21
Speaker
So can you talk to the – and also to add into that as well, the fact that you said that most college professors are likely introverted or at least nerdy people.
00:14:32
Speaker
I think back to the teachers I had in college, and no offense, but I mean overall my college experience classroom-wise was not good.
00:14:41
Speaker
There was some interesting stuff in there, but I was the kind of person that skipped class and read the book and then got the exam done, at least for the most part.
00:14:49
Speaker
So could you
Student Inclusivity and Support
00:14:51
Speaker
kind of talk about then the context of how the introverted or even just nerdy academic person develops in a learning experience either at the college or K-12 level that caters to the entire class rather than just the academically accelerated?
00:15:05
Speaker
Well, throughout my book, I argue that effective teaching demands that we know and accept ourselves, not because that's a pop psychology platoon, but because to be effective, we have to understand our own strengths, where we need assistance, and where we will always keep learning and improving.
00:15:27
Speaker
Ever since I fully embraced the fact that I'm pretty nerdy,
00:15:31
Speaker
and super introverted, it's not only improved my teaching efficacy, but it's also made it easier for me to spot the other introverts in the room.
00:15:40
Speaker
And I'd say improve my teaching efficacy because now I stop myself.
00:15:45
Speaker
And whenever I think, oh, this assignment is so great.
00:15:48
Speaker
This book is so awesome.
00:15:49
Speaker
This thing we're going to do is so, so cool.
00:15:51
Speaker
I think, okay, so I think that, but will my non-nerdy students think that?
00:15:57
Speaker
I caught myself once thinking, oh, this article is so hard to understand.
00:16:02
Speaker
My students are going to love it.
00:16:03
Speaker
No, no, they're not.
00:16:04
Speaker
That's not normal.
00:16:06
Speaker
Or anxiety about grades.
00:16:09
Speaker
Academics have sought out being graded.
00:16:11
Speaker
Essentially, that's all it is.
00:16:13
Speaker
That's all scholarship is, is having your work constantly assessed.
00:16:17
Speaker
But
00:16:17
Speaker
Grading is a huge source of anxiety for normal people who don't like being graded.
00:16:22
Speaker
I'm also able to teach self-efficacy by giving myself credit when I step outside my comfort zone.
00:16:29
Speaker
So one example I talk about in my book is connecting with students before and after class, talking not about class stuff, but just casually interacting.
00:16:39
Speaker
Often, some days, that's the hardest part of the class for me.
00:16:42
Speaker
And when I do it, I gear myself up to do it.
00:16:46
Speaker
I plan for it.
00:16:47
Speaker
And then after I do it, I pat myself on the back.
00:16:49
Speaker
You know, I interacted socially.
00:16:52
Speaker
You know, as a socially awkward, smarty pants, and being fully aware of that, I plan for it.
00:17:00
Speaker
So in my book, there's five areas of pedagogical learning that I encourage people to way to frame their teaching careers, awareness, preparation, reflection, support, and practice.
00:17:13
Speaker
So I'm aware that it's hard for me to talk to people socially.
00:17:17
Speaker
I would rather come in real rush into the classroom and look at my notes and look at the computer and not talk to people.
00:17:23
Speaker
But I'm aware that that's not going to work.
00:17:25
Speaker
So I prepare myself.
00:17:27
Speaker
for it.
00:17:27
Speaker
I prepare for the social interaction part of teaching.
00:17:31
Speaker
I reflect back on it.
00:17:32
Speaker
Wow, I actually talked to so-and-so.
00:17:35
Speaker
Did you win your game?
00:17:37
Speaker
What else have you been doing?
00:17:39
Speaker
And then I found ways to support a scholarship that affirms that I'm doing the right thing by building social connections.
00:17:46
Speaker
And then I just practice it.
00:17:47
Speaker
I keep doing it.
00:17:48
Speaker
But it all had to start with me being aware that this isn't one of my strengths.
00:17:54
Speaker
This is going to sound so bizarre probably.
00:17:57
Speaker
But you'll probably relate to this is that, you know, it's something that I struggle with as well is that I'm not good at small talk.
00:18:03
Speaker
It's really difficult, especially since I don't watch sports.
00:18:07
Speaker
I watch very little reality television.
00:18:11
Speaker
So, you know, when I go into a room and the kids are in there, I've actually in the past, this sounds so weird.
00:18:17
Speaker
I've prepared like talking points, like legit, like I've had like memes like on my computer.
00:18:22
Speaker
So I have something where it's just like, oh, I could talk to you because I came to the realization one day, you know, people don't like sitting in my room because they consider it to be awkward silence.
00:18:32
Speaker
You know, I don't really even think about it.
00:18:35
Speaker
To me, it's just like, oh, yeah, I'm just I'm reading this thing for the beginning of class.
00:18:38
Speaker
But there's like seven other kids like sitting in my room at the beginning of the day.
00:18:41
Speaker
And they're just like, you know, what's this guy doing?
00:18:44
Speaker
Like you need to actually say something.
Personal Experiences in Education
00:18:47
Speaker
That's why you'll put some music on or, you know, like, like, that's why I'm doing that next semester.
00:18:51
Speaker
I'm going to try doing that.
00:18:52
Speaker
The classroom is a social space.
00:18:54
Speaker
That's not particularly good news for some of us who did not set out to engage in social spaces, who thought teaching was going to be all about sitting in an ivory tower, reading our books and thinking our thoughts, preparing for it, just as you say, preparing for it.
00:19:11
Speaker
is a great way to do it better, giving yourself props for it when you do it well, and also taking into account without making big generalizations about the generation or about the impact of technology.
00:19:25
Speaker
I have noticed over the 20-some years I've been teaching, students today do seem to need more direct information
00:19:33
Speaker
assistance in connecting with each other as well.
00:19:36
Speaker
So the classroom and social space isn't just about us, the teacher connecting with students, but helping students just talk to each other.
00:19:44
Speaker
This might be slightly different for a high school class or an elementary class, but my students generally don't.
00:19:52
Speaker
each fall, each year seem to need a little, the younger students seem to need a little more of a push to just converse with one another and to get a study buddy, to even make a connection with one other student in the class who they can get in touch with if they want to review notes.
00:20:13
Speaker
They seem to need a little more of a direction, a little more of a push from me, a little more space to do that, a little more
00:20:21
Speaker
assistance in building those skills.
00:20:23
Speaker
So it's not just you as an introvert coming in and there's a silence in the classroom.
00:20:29
Speaker
They too, I'm speaking just generally, but generally speaking, they too need, seem to need a little more permission to, to converse, to connect with each other, to not default to looking at their phones, but try to make some human connections in the classroom.
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah, to speak to that too, in a second here, I want to know more about what that looks like in the room.
00:20:53
Speaker
I graduated from college not that long ago.
00:20:54
Speaker
It was six, seven years ago, somewhere around there.
00:20:57
Speaker
I can't really remember.
00:20:57
Speaker
And I went to OSU, which is a gigantic public school.
00:21:01
Speaker
Ohio State?
00:21:02
Speaker
Ohio State, yes.
00:21:03
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:21:03
Speaker
That's its own city.
00:21:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:05
Speaker
I mean, it is the city of Columbus.
00:21:06
Speaker
Oh, my God.
00:21:08
Speaker
And that was...
00:21:09
Speaker
Maybe not the best decision on my part.
00:21:12
Speaker
In retrospect, no offense to OSU, some of my classes were really good, but it's like 40,000 people.
00:21:16
Speaker
I mean, it's a giant school and that's just where everyone went.
00:21:19
Speaker
It was the cheapest option.
00:21:20
Speaker
You know, as a very introverted person, it's incredibly difficult to make connections outside of the classroom.
00:21:26
Speaker
When I was in high school, the way that I made friends was based off of purely academics.
00:21:30
Speaker
Like I would talk to my friends, we'd work together on a group project and then we'd become friends.
00:21:34
Speaker
Whereas at the college level, in my experience, there was little to no interaction at all, let alone.
00:21:41
Speaker
So like you had to like get involved in clubs and I probably was kind of left behind in some regards of that quote unquote college experience.
00:21:48
Speaker
Now, that being said, I like that.
00:21:51
Speaker
So maybe that's kind of a catch 22.
00:21:53
Speaker
I like being able to like go to the coffee shop and kind of like be left in my own thoughts and just kind of leave me alone.
00:21:58
Speaker
But I do acknowledge the fact that I probably would have benefited from having a little bit more group interaction and being exposed to more perspectives when I was in school.
00:22:08
Speaker
I didn't really have that until after I left.
00:22:11
Speaker
So could you kind of go into more detail about what that looks like at the college level to make a more interactive experience for everyone?
00:22:18
Speaker
Ever since I fully acknowledged and embraced being a nerd, being an introvert as a professor, it's made it easier for me to reach out
00:22:28
Speaker
To students, it can be just as easy as asking a student, do you think of yourself as an introvert?
00:22:34
Speaker
In one of those, like before classes, you're just talking casually.
00:22:37
Speaker
And then listening, just listening and asking some follow-up questions about their academic experience.
00:22:43
Speaker
If you've really made an effort in your classroom to embrace inclusivity and inclusive pedagogy, it boils down to making sure you have included multiple paths towards to enable students to demonstrate learning in your class.
00:23:01
Speaker
If you've thought through some of your own biases and assumptions, your classes will include more opportunities for students
00:23:07
Speaker
introverts to shine.
00:23:09
Speaker
The number one thing I'd recommend to anyone teaching a college class or any class, but especially geeks, introverts, and nerds, the number one thing I'd recommend is get to know your students.
00:23:20
Speaker
Learn their names, talk to them informally before and after class, ask them what
00:23:25
Speaker
they want to learn, why are they in school, what are their goals, what matters to them.
00:23:30
Speaker
Students consistently say this is so important.
00:23:32
Speaker
It's the first step in what you're talking about in creating a way to inspire the most number of students to do good work in the classroom, to engage, and to feel a part of the classroom.
00:23:43
Speaker
they have to feel like they're seen and they're recognized and that's hard for us for nerds to do especially even if you're not that introvert but it's hard for nerds to do because we just want to get to the content that nerdy stuff that we love so much we studied it let's just get to that but the
00:23:58
Speaker
The social aspect, the peopling part of it is the crucial first essential step.
00:24:05
Speaker
And students will say it very clearly.
00:24:08
Speaker
They have to feel seen and recognized first by the faculty, by the teacher, and then that can spread to the class as a whole.
00:24:17
Speaker
Helping them connect with each other starts with helping them feel seen and known by the teacher, by the expert in the room.
00:24:27
Speaker
I often talk to faculty about this issue as not just trying to get students more engaged or connected or active, but empowering them.
00:24:38
Speaker
This is about power.
00:24:40
Speaker
I encourage people to think of student passivity as not just an issue of classroom management or pedagogy,
00:24:48
Speaker
but an issue of educational and intellectual power.
00:24:52
Speaker
What your whole human restoration project is addressing, the emphasis on standardized testing, no child left behind, common core, decreasing resources,
00:25:03
Speaker
And also, let's not forget a very, very scary world.
00:25:07
Speaker
I mean, the world's burning.
00:25:08
Speaker
The students who are anxious are not.
00:25:13
Speaker
That's a realistic fear.
00:25:14
Speaker
All these factors come together.
00:25:16
Speaker
By the time they get to my college class, so many of my students have been successful in school by staying quiet, being undemanding, and filling in the blank.
00:25:25
Speaker
That's worked.
00:25:27
Speaker
They got an A. They were successful.
00:25:30
Speaker
So to create energized and engaged students, that's going to really vary from class to class, student to student.
00:25:37
Speaker
I mean, class to class, college to college, teacher to teacher.
00:25:41
Speaker
But that humanizing aspect that you're talking about, I would say that's the very best first step we can all take.
Passion and Power in Teaching
00:25:47
Speaker
Additionally, understanding what
00:25:50
Speaker
why and how students struggle.
00:25:53
Speaker
What's going into that dynamic when students struggle?
00:25:56
Speaker
How can we inspire students to problem solve, to do that kind of work when they're in the college classroom?
00:26:01
Speaker
I'm reading a great book right now by Professor Laura M. Harrison called Teaching Struggling Students.
00:26:08
Speaker
And she points out that creative problem solving, including solving a problem in your own learning when you're not understanding something, requires a lot of tinkering time.
00:26:19
Speaker
Thinking through something like trying this, trying that, brainstorming, kind of pondering, mulling, just fooling around with it.
00:26:27
Speaker
But time is a privileged commodity.
00:26:30
Speaker
Being able to do that is much harder when you're stretched thin for financial or health reasons if you don't have time.
00:26:39
Speaker
This applies to teachers as well.
00:26:42
Speaker
You're more likely to panic when you hit an obstacle when time is scarce.
00:26:47
Speaker
And we all know how we make decisions in panic mode.
00:26:51
Speaker
And I guess the final thing I'd emphasize to all teachers and in really any teaching context as a way to engage teachers,
00:27:00
Speaker
and help students connect with your material and with each other is really let your nerd flag fly.
00:27:07
Speaker
You know, passion for your topic can truly and deeply inspire students.
00:27:12
Speaker
It inspires anyone trying to learn how to do something new, seeing somebody else just totally fall in love with it.
00:27:18
Speaker
And being so eager to share it.
00:27:20
Speaker
It's something I've started to do frequently in class, especially if students hit a roadblock, if they're struggling with something, and I just totally nerd out about it, like, oh, I can't, this is so interesting.
00:27:34
Speaker
What do you think about this?
00:27:36
Speaker
Like, not necessarily...
00:27:39
Speaker
in a big extroverted showy way, but in a way that's authentic to me, which is I'm crazy about this idea.
00:27:47
Speaker
I want to think through it with you.
00:27:48
Speaker
To give you an example, in the Twitter world, I follow Dr. Chris Martine from Bucknell University and Serafina Nance from UC Berkeley.
00:27:59
Speaker
Dr. Martine is a biologist and Nance is an astrophysics graduate student.
00:28:04
Speaker
And their Twitter feeds are basically just nonstop geeking out about their topics, which I know nothing about.
00:28:10
Speaker
I've never studied them.
00:28:12
Speaker
But I'll read a tweet from Dr. Martine and I'll think, well, hey, are plants interesting?
00:28:17
Speaker
Maybe they are.
00:28:19
Speaker
Or I'll read a tweet from Nance and I'll think, maybe I should learn more about the solar system.
00:28:25
Speaker
They just love their field so much you can't help but be drawn in.
00:28:29
Speaker
And I would argue that even the most introverted nerd can share their intellectual passion.
00:28:38
Speaker
It's a practical strategy because it will help students learn, but it also models the best part of educational achievement that if you can do something you'd love to do, there's like, what's better than that?
00:29:02
Speaker
I hope you're enjoying the podcast thus far.
00:29:04
Speaker
I sincerely appreciate you listening in.
00:29:06
Speaker
And if you enjoy the work, please head over to human restoration project.org to find our free resources and wealth of writings.
00:29:14
Speaker
And then if you think we should keep going, take a gander at our Patreon page for a dollar a month, you'll receive a professional print ready electronic magazine of our work every two months.
00:29:24
Speaker
But as always, all of that work is available free online.
00:29:28
Speaker
I want to bring up actually,
00:29:29
Speaker
This is going to be quite long winded, but I have four points.
00:29:32
Speaker
All right.
00:29:32
Speaker
I'm going to try my best to remember them.
00:29:34
Speaker
First off, this idea of being relational and really embracing your nerdy side.
00:29:40
Speaker
You know, I think part of breaking down that barrier in terms of sharing power is acknowledging and being transparent with your students about who you are as an individual.
00:29:48
Speaker
I mean, I open up my class and tell kids like I'm a nerdy, socially awkward person.
00:29:54
Speaker
You know, kids bring it up, especially like my like really like out there extroverted kids get a kick out of the fact that I really don't know how to interact with them.
00:30:02
Speaker
Like they start talking about, you know, football quarterbacks and they get excited when I know a team's name.
00:30:07
Speaker
It's like I'm not that far removed from reality.
00:30:09
Speaker
Like I know who the Steelers are, but they embrace that fact and they kind of see you as a fellow in the room.
00:30:16
Speaker
Especially since you're probably different than a lot of the other teachers that they've had, which gives you kind of a unique opportunity to engage, especially with students who are more nerdy.
00:30:24
Speaker
Like my best relationship building, honestly, is with, you know, the quiet kid in the corner because they see me as like they start talking about anime.
00:30:31
Speaker
I'm like, oh, yeah, I know this one.
00:30:32
Speaker
And they're like, oh, like, whoa, like who's this guy?
00:30:35
Speaker
So that's pretty cool.
00:30:36
Speaker
The second thing is, is that speaking of sharing power with students, a big part of what
00:30:41
Speaker
we embrace in progressive education is experiential learning or planning, you know, project-based experiences where students do have a lot more power on what they say and what they do.
00:30:51
Speaker
And, you know, as an introverted person, that's actually really cool because that means that I'm talking less.
00:30:57
Speaker
You know, I'm giving a lot more power to the students to work on their own or in small groups, and I'm just there as a mediator.
00:31:04
Speaker
And I can still nerd out and express my passion
00:31:07
Speaker
Except now I'm just doing it in a one-on-one setting as opposed to, you know, me freaking out in front of the room.
00:31:12
Speaker
The third point was, is that this idea of passive receiving, this isn't conspiratorial.
00:31:18
Speaker
I think that our culture, like a neoliberal culture, you know, it breeds apathy.
00:31:23
Speaker
It breeds us not caring about things anymore.
00:31:25
Speaker
I don't think it's shocking, or it shouldn't be shocking, that, you know, the society is the way that it is.
00:31:31
Speaker
If you are training passive receivers of information, especially people,
00:31:35
Speaker
students that excel at school, that know the most about the things that we're talking about, if their idea of success is being evaluated by others and being really good at filling in the boxes, of course we have a society where people don't really stand up for themselves.
00:31:50
Speaker
I mean, it is a sad reality that a lot of our world is shaped by corporate interest or by those that have power.
00:31:57
Speaker
And finally, too, that idea of passion that you brought up there at the end,
00:32:01
Speaker
I think it's important that we acknowledge that there's a very big difference between passion in terms of how loud you speak or in terms of how good you are at putting on a TED Talk versus how passionate you are about connecting content and ensuring that learners understand
Teacher Identity and Effectiveness
00:32:16
Speaker
it.
00:32:16
Speaker
Because I don't know if this is much of the case in the college level, but in the K-12 world, a lot of educational dogma is influenced by those who are really good at selling a conference and are really good at saying a lot of platitudes very loudly in a way that sounds nice to everyone, kind of like politics.
00:32:37
Speaker
But when it gets down to like the nitty gritty in terms of like, what are you actually talking about?
00:32:41
Speaker
Like, what is the passion in terms of educational research?
00:32:45
Speaker
It's not really there or it's very minute.
00:32:47
Speaker
That was a lot.
00:32:48
Speaker
I'm just kind of curious about your thoughts on any of that stuff.
00:32:51
Speaker
What you just said is very true about being an introvert and wanting to talk less is actually a great quality in...
00:33:01
Speaker
in effective teaching and especially for academics we talk too much like almost to a person every single academic I've ever met talks too much and I used to think that's because we're all pompous windbags but actually now that I've been doing this work I've under I understand that that is one way that introverts cope with social settings is talk too much
00:33:27
Speaker
And especially in the classroom, it's easy to do, especially if your students sit quietly and give you their civil attention.
00:33:34
Speaker
They look like they're listening, but they're not really learning anything.
00:33:38
Speaker
The fact that as an introvert seeking out pedagogically effective strategies like sharing the power the way you described, those two things mesh really, really well.
00:33:50
Speaker
To do that, you'd have to be, again, that self-knowledge, be aware that I'm an introvert.
00:33:55
Speaker
And that does make some obstacles to effective teaching, but it also can make me a better teacher, an effective teacher.
00:34:03
Speaker
Your last point about the passion, yes, I would say, again, it's about emphasizing effective teaching and fighting that super teacher myth.
00:34:12
Speaker
It is very, very persistent.
00:34:14
Speaker
And that's across the board from kindergarten through college people.
00:34:19
Speaker
have this stereotype of teaching as the most, like you said, the most, how you were describing the TED talk, the most flamboyant, most engaging.
00:34:34
Speaker
You just learn magically just by being in their presence, you learn.
00:34:38
Speaker
That's not how it looks for most people.
00:34:40
Speaker
Exactly.
00:34:41
Speaker
I think using the term effective teaching can help combat that.
00:34:45
Speaker
Cut through the fads and the buzzwords.
00:34:49
Speaker
Is it effective or not?
00:34:50
Speaker
And is it effective with your students and you?
00:34:56
Speaker
as a teacher in the classroom.
00:34:58
Speaker
I mean, one thing I emphasize in the very first chapter about awareness is the way that embodied identity shapes teaching learning because embodied identity shapes all human interactions.
00:35:12
Speaker
And I think especially I've seen some of those where like the be all end all, we found the magic bullet that's going to cure everything does not fully take into account
00:35:22
Speaker
the ways that race, ethnicity, gender expression, speaking voice,
00:35:29
Speaker
all those things shape the interactions between teacher and students.
00:35:35
Speaker
We bring all our assumptions and biases from outside the classroom into the classroom.
00:35:40
Speaker
That doesn't mean we can't fight them and shape our pedagogy and create inclusive classrooms, but those things are all present.
00:35:49
Speaker
Just to give you one example, so the scholarship is pretty clear that effective teachers build rapport with their students.
00:35:57
Speaker
That's kind of across the board.
00:35:59
Speaker
But what I have to do as a white, gender normative, middle-aged woman to build rapport with my students is not exactly the same as my male colleagues have to do.
00:36:12
Speaker
It's not exactly the same as faculty of color have to do.
00:36:17
Speaker
I have to manage my authority in a way my male colleagues don't.
00:36:23
Speaker
Faculty of color don't have the presumed authority on the student's part to the same extent that I might come into the classroom.
00:36:32
Speaker
Any pedagogical strategy, any teaching technique,
00:36:38
Speaker
will have to be implemented slightly differently.
00:36:41
Speaker
And I'm not saying like the professor who meets every stereotype, the white guy with a beard, smoking a pipe in a tweed coat, leather elbow patches, pontificating, he has to work hard to teach effectively too, for
Nerd Culture and Education
00:36:54
Speaker
sure.
00:36:54
Speaker
When teaching advice says something like,
00:36:57
Speaker
you have to be friendly with students.
00:37:00
Speaker
You should smile when you're talking to them.
00:37:02
Speaker
Well, that means something different to me as a woman than it does to a man.
00:37:07
Speaker
Smile more.
00:37:08
Speaker
That sounds different to my ears.
00:37:11
Speaker
Building, I mean, that's all right on point.
00:37:13
Speaker
I am definitely with you.
00:37:14
Speaker
I mean, all those ideas are circulating education.
00:37:17
Speaker
And I think that we need to have more conversations about those things because sadly, especially in the K-12 world, um,
00:37:25
Speaker
Sadly, in rural areas, it's very difficult to bring up issues of, especially in our current political climate of sexism or racism or anything of that nature, because you automatically are associated with like, oh, you must be a liberal.
00:37:39
Speaker
So there's, therefore, there's like no way to, this is not a liberal conservative thing.
00:37:43
Speaker
You know, race was not, well, at least ideologically was never supposed to be that way.
00:37:47
Speaker
From a party perspective, it is, but that's a whole other story.
00:37:50
Speaker
Kind of building into a final question, you know, our audience is,
00:37:54
Speaker
I would say primarily K-12 educators, but there probably are a few professors that listen.
00:37:59
Speaker
I assume so.
00:38:00
Speaker
What would be kind of like your call to action or your selling point for geeky pedagogy to the people that are listening?
00:38:07
Speaker
first thing I want to talk about is what is possible within a college classroom that might be less accessible to K through 12.
00:38:20
Speaker
And I really like this question that you gave me because it reminded me of some of the
00:38:27
Speaker
incredible privilege is I enjoy teaching college.
00:38:30
Speaker
And I say reminder, because this is something you can relate to.
00:38:33
Speaker
It's very easy to get sucked into the negative, or at least the challenging or difficult parts of college teaching.
00:38:39
Speaker
Sure.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:40
Speaker
The biggest privilege I see college instructors having that's not
00:38:46
Speaker
as available to K through 12 is a huge amount of self-determination about course content and pedagogical approaches.
00:38:53
Speaker
That gives us a lot of flexibility to try new things or implement certain strategies because we have figured out
00:39:01
Speaker
what's going to work effectively in our own unique teaching context.
00:39:04
Speaker
But there is a flip side to that, which is that many college professors feel very isolated, like we have to figure out every pedagogical puzzle ourselves, or that the problems we're facing are somehow all about us as individuals and not realizing that our colleague, literally in the next classroom, might be having the exact same challenge.
00:39:24
Speaker
In my view, the most important thing college instructors can do with that flexibility, that privilege today in the Trump era, and building on our skill sets as academics and scholars, is to create inclusive intellectual communities.
00:39:40
Speaker
where as many students as possible feel empowered to think critically about the world around them.
00:39:46
Speaker
Now, I know that happens in great classrooms, K through 12 as well.
00:39:51
Speaker
But what I think college instructors can do is empower students by demystifying the skills and abilities needed to succeed in higher education.
00:40:04
Speaker
emphasizing to students that yes, you can with effort and practice, you can write well, you can communicate clearly, you can research, fighting against the imposter syndrome and systematic barriers that especially first-generation students and students of color may face in college.
00:40:22
Speaker
At my small rural state university, most of my students arrived to college underprepared, academically and emotionally, personally.
00:40:32
Speaker
And a lot of them struggle to succeed.
00:40:34
Speaker
We don't get a lot of history majors, in part because it's perceived as a less practical field and students and families are really worried about the huge financial investment they're making in higher education.
00:40:47
Speaker
and what will come afterwards.
00:40:48
Speaker
But the majors we do have, I see them transformed by classes that continually demand that they read closely, that they write well, that they support an argument, they discuss their ideas.
00:41:02
Speaker
Most of them, the vast majority do not become professional historians, but what they gain is the self-confidence that comes with mastering these concrete skills.
00:41:11
Speaker
And from
00:41:13
Speaker
from their four or more years of being asked all the time to think through things and express their thoughts.
00:41:20
Speaker
Our majors present their senior seminar projects at a public forum.
00:41:25
Speaker
every semester, and not everyone by a long shot has completed some perfectly executed professional level, top level history research project.
00:41:35
Speaker
But virtually all of them demonstrate confidence in their intellectual and professional abilities in that public forum.
00:41:44
Speaker
Even when they're nervous, they demonstrate this confidence because they've spent years with our super smart faculty asking them, what do you think about this?
00:41:53
Speaker
They've spent years discussing with other students, thinking out loud about a wide range of historical topics.
00:41:59
Speaker
So in other words, by the time our students are seniors, by the time they finish their senior project, they know they have something to say.
00:42:07
Speaker
They know that their work matters.
00:42:10
Speaker
And this is very essential at this moment.
00:42:14
Speaker
It's always essential, but it's especially essential at this particular moment.
00:42:18
Speaker
It's especially important for first-generation students, for students of color.
00:42:23
Speaker
And that's the biggest privilege I think I have in the college classroom, helping students realize those things.
00:42:29
Speaker
I guess my last word of advice is
00:42:33
Speaker
to geeks, introverts, and nerds is to lean into it, fully embrace it.
00:42:40
Speaker
Those words are historically thickly layered geek and nerd, even introvert to some degree, but there's never been a better time to be a geek, introvert, and nerd.
00:42:52
Speaker
People know
00:42:53
Speaker
what that means now.
00:42:55
Speaker
It was very important to me in my book that I not reinforce the gendered and racialized stereotypes about geeks and nerds, or even actually stereotypes about introverts as well.
00:43:07
Speaker
They've been gendered male and raced as white, but that is changing.
00:43:13
Speaker
It's changing really fast, especially each new generation.
00:43:17
Speaker
I mean,
00:43:19
Speaker
Being a nerd, even though there's still plenty of social hierarchies in high school, there's still popular kids and nerds, but being a nerd doesn't mean the same thing it meant 20 years ago, even 10 years ago.
00:43:34
Speaker
More and more, it's just a descriptor.
00:43:36
Speaker
Like you described your students, they would readily say,
00:43:41
Speaker
Yeah, my teacher's a nerd, but not necessarily in a derogatory way.
00:43:45
Speaker
It's just a fact.
00:43:46
Speaker
You're a nerd.
00:43:47
Speaker
Like you're a tall person or you're left-handed.
00:43:50
Speaker
You're a nerd.
00:43:51
Speaker
That's just the way it is.
00:43:52
Speaker
It doesn't matter how cool you think you are or how many tattoos you have or...
00:43:57
Speaker
how up to date you are on the current music scene.
00:44:01
Speaker
I mean, your students are often going to see you as a nerd if you're a teacher, but that's okay.
00:44:08
Speaker
In fact, it can even be empowering to embrace it like you described it, building it into your pedagogy and your approach and how you connect with students.
00:44:19
Speaker
the stereotypes about being a geek or nerd aren't totally gone.
00:44:22
Speaker
I mean, especially in certain fan cultures and in gaming communities, it's still a major problem, geek gatekeeping.
00:44:30
Speaker
But there's also so...
00:44:35
Speaker
so many of us nerds and geeks who are more and more embracing and celebrating what Spock called, what Spock in the original Star Trek series called, described the universe as a place of infinite diversity and infinite combinations.
00:44:52
Speaker
I'm sure you've read Quiet by Susan Cain.
00:44:54
Speaker
Yes.
00:44:55
Speaker
So I think that
00:44:57
Speaker
Geeks and nerds have a unique opportunity to showcase to specifically geeky and nerdy students what it means to embrace the counter narrative.
00:45:09
Speaker
We started up esports this year.
00:45:10
Speaker
So a lot of our students are coming in from that quote unquote gaming culture.
00:45:15
Speaker
And there are some realistic problems with gaming culture in terms of racism and sexism that you find, especially on the internet.
00:45:23
Speaker
Yes.
00:45:25
Speaker
Part of the curriculum for esports, which I was really happy with, is that they actually have you do lessons on those specific things.
00:45:32
Speaker
Like what is trolling?
00:45:35
Speaker
Why is there so much racism online?
00:45:37
Speaker
What does it mean to be racist on the internet?
00:45:38
Speaker
Because there's a mythos amongst gamers that when you say intentionally racist or sexist things on the internet, then you are – I'm trying to think.
00:45:49
Speaker
Gamers think that they're not being racist or sexist.
00:45:52
Speaker
They're just trying to draw attention or, you know, you know, just that kind of trolling.
00:45:57
Speaker
That's what that is without recognizing the implications about what they're doing and how that, you know, I think that's really important for us to address, especially in the modern narrative of the eight chans or like the communities that you can get pulled into if you start to believe these things that you are pontificating upon.
00:46:15
Speaker
So I think that's a really good point too, that you have a special,
00:46:18
Speaker
perspective that I don't think the average person really understands what these things are.
00:46:23
Speaker
Like there is a specific nerdy narrative that like, I know what 4chan is.
00:46:29
Speaker
I've been on 4chan.
00:46:30
Speaker
I am very familiar with it.
00:46:31
Speaker
Doesn't mean I respect it or like completely like engage in the community, but I get it.
00:46:36
Speaker
And I think it helps for students to see a role model of sorts of someone who, you know, comes from these communities that understands, or sorry, I shouldn't say it like that.
00:46:45
Speaker
That comes from this community.
00:46:47
Speaker
I don't want to say that I'm a four... Don't post on the internet that I'm part of the four-chain community.
00:46:52
Speaker
What I mean is I understand what these communities are and can showcase a better alternative to these ideas, I guess.
00:46:58
Speaker
I think so.
00:46:59
Speaker
And there's... The lines aren't as rigid as they used to be, not by a long shot.
00:47:04
Speaker
So even if you have someone like...
00:47:08
Speaker
My son, who's not only Chris, not only is he an extrovert, not only is he a lexadaisical student, but he's a freaking athlete.
00:47:17
Speaker
Like what?
00:47:18
Speaker
I'm just like, what?
00:47:19
Speaker
Who is this child?
00:47:21
Speaker
Like everything I'm not.
00:47:23
Speaker
But he is a counselor at summer camp right now, and he's playing magic.
00:47:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:30
Speaker
Magic the Gathering with other campers, and he loves it.
00:47:34
Speaker
And it's not a threat to his masculinity to sit down with some of his more nerdy campers and play basketball.
00:47:45
Speaker
Magic the Gathering.
00:47:46
Speaker
It's fun.
00:47:47
Speaker
It's cool.
00:47:47
Speaker
But he can do that with, and he's just about the most stereotypical kind of popular athlete, extrovert that you can imagine.
00:48:00
Speaker
The lines are a lot less...
00:48:03
Speaker
rigid than they used to be.
00:48:04
Speaker
And I think it does give us opportunity as educators.
00:48:08
Speaker
And even if, even if you're trying to connect with a student who just sees you as nothing but a big old nerd, in their mind, they'll be like, oh my gosh, what a nerd.
00:48:23
Speaker
Jeez, what a dork, what a geek.
00:48:26
Speaker
But they're also thinking, oh,
00:48:29
Speaker
Well, at least he gives a shit.
00:48:31
Speaker
At least he cares, right?
00:48:33
Speaker
And so maybe I can't survive this class after all.
00:48:37
Speaker
It's not... In my experience, it's rare now to really...
00:48:44
Speaker
have that be used as a derogatory or dismissive kind of way of looking at a teacher or professor.
00:48:52
Speaker
It actually helps me connect with students, even if they are, they're never going to share my interest about spending a billion hours in the archives, staring at little tiny dusty documents, but they respond and appreciate to the fact that
00:49:10
Speaker
I love it.
00:49:11
Speaker
And I want to share that a little bit with them.
00:49:14
Speaker
I can't help but think of 21 Jump Street.
00:49:16
Speaker
I don't know if you've seen the updated version of that movie, but like the idea, you know, like Jock goes back to school and wants to beat up the kids.
00:49:22
Speaker
My original manuscript, I had to cut it out, but it's the perfect example.
00:49:25
Speaker
Yeah, it switches when they go back.
00:49:27
Speaker
Yeah, that movie spoke to me so much as a kid who grew up in the 90s.
00:49:31
Speaker
Like this is like, yeah, that's exactly how it is now as a teacher.
00:49:33
Speaker
That's the difference.
Podcast Conclusion
00:49:42
Speaker
Thank you again for listening to Things Fall Apart from the Human Restoration Project.
00:49:45
Speaker
I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to push the progressive envelope of education.
00:49:50
Speaker
If you have time, I'd love for you to leave us a review on iTunes, social media, or anywhere that you see fit.
00:49:56
Speaker
I mention iTunes specifically because the more ratings we have there, the higher we rank on the education podcast list.
00:50:02
Speaker
And the more listeners we have, the better we're going to do.
00:50:05
Speaker
We can't do this without you, and I'm humbled by the opportunity to help broadcast this message to as many people as we possibly can.
00:50:11
Speaker
So let's push forward together and restore humanity.