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Tapcussionist Triad
55 Plays13 days ago
Our interview with tap dancer Vuyo Mdingi and percussionist Sifiso Maseko of the South African band Tapcussionist Triad. We talk about the tap dance scene in South Africa, collaborating and composing together, tap dance as percussion, and how their various ethnic and musical backgrounds, rhythms, and languages influence their music.
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TAPCUSSIONIST TRIAD
INSTAGRAM: @tapcussionisttriad
VUYO MDINGI
INSTAGRAM: @tapcussionist
SIFISO MASEKO
INSTAGRAM: @masterpecs
...
RELATIVE RHYTHMS
WEBSITE: www.relativerhythms.com
EMAIL US: relativerhythms@gmail.com
INSTAGRAM: @relativerhythms
FACEBOOK: Relative Rhythms
TIKTOK: @relativerhythms
...
MUSIC:
Theme: "For the Love of It" by The Adam Price Group
Midroll: A live performance by Tapcussionist Triad
Outro: A live performance by Tapcussionist Triad
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Relative Rhythms Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Hi everyone, my name is Emily Jane Acree. And my name is Adam Price. And you're listening to the Relative Rhythms Podcast. Today we are excited to introduce to you tap dancer Vuyo Mdingi and percussionist Sefisu Maseko, two founding members of the South African group Tapcussionist Triad.
Tapcussionist Triad's Unique Style
00:00:20
Speaker
Hailing from Johannesburg, the group, along with bassist Sipo Dlamini, has already gained international recognition and toured extensively, bringing their unique musical approach to audiences all over Africa.
00:00:33
Speaker
Vuyo takes Black American tap dance, brings it back to Africa, and infuses it with the rhythms and stories of his own culture and homeland. Both Vuyo and Sofiso are extremely intentional about using tap as a musical instrument, composing music where each percussionist gets equal musical importance and shares in the spotlight.
00:00:54
Speaker
We discuss the tap dance scene in South Africa, the many languages, ethnic backgrounds, and musical traditions in the country, as well as their approach to collaborative musical composition.
00:01:05
Speaker
Please welcome to the podcast, Vuyo Mendingi and Sofiso Maseko.
Vuyo's Journey into Tap Dance
00:01:15
Speaker
All right, Vujo and Sofisa, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Adam. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you guys. Thanks so much for coming on. We're so excited to have this conversation with you guys. So we usually start by asking our guests how they first came to their art form. So Vujo, why don't you start? How did you first start like tap dancing? Where did that come from?
00:01:41
Speaker
Yo, so I started as a as a traditional ah dancer. So there's there's there's a traditional dance they call Inzam, which is a Zulu dance.
00:01:54
Speaker
So I was introduced to that in primary school. This was around maybe 98, yeah, 98, 97. Yeah. yeah ninety eighty ninety seven and I think I was born to be an artist because back then we didn't know what an artist was.
00:02:11
Speaker
So by the year 2000, when I went higher primary, I saw this magical thing from these guys. you know But every time I wanted to learn, I would not get them due to some reasons because they would have to go perform somewhere or they were busy.
00:02:30
Speaker
So I had to wait for like, I think, three or six months until I got into their class. I didn't know what tap dance was. I don't want to lie. We didn't have any history videos or any history lessons. um So for a lot of us, even to this day, you know, when when ah when a person tap dances in South Africa, a lot of people are always shocked.
00:02:56
Speaker
what what's what What is this guy doing? What is this? So we we didn't have a lot of history and we still don't have that much history till to this day. But I started tap dancing the year 2000.
00:03:09
Speaker
i was in grade ah five, I think. Yeah. wow Wow. And then I fell in love with tap dancing. i just concentrated on tap dancing.
00:03:22
Speaker
um Yes, i you know, from Zulu dance, you would play drums, those traditional drums, you would perform as a Zulu dancer.
00:03:34
Speaker
And the love of music grew from that. So hence, I think I was drawn to to the rhythms of tap dancing. So from year 2000, I got tap dancing lessons
The Birth of Tapcussionist
00:03:47
Speaker
from these guys. So these guys were taught by and old man.
00:03:51
Speaker
This old man was called Nathaniel Blangwek. He doesn't have much history. He's not in the history books. ah We've tried to search his history. We went to his family, but we didn't you know get that much history.
00:04:06
Speaker
so i So I told myself, let me just learn the the a form and the rest I'll just learn as I grow. In the class, I became one of the prominent people who would you know understand tap dancing.
00:04:21
Speaker
So when we started, we were like 50 of us in school, but you know, as time went by, ah people lost interest.
00:04:31
Speaker
And then there were 20 of us until 10 of us. And then the 10 of us pushed until high school. So we would enter competitions, like we'd have school competitions, choir competitions, and then they would feature our group as, you know, these 10 young guys who are tap dancing.
00:04:50
Speaker
and Then pushed, we pushed. I matriculated in 2008. two thousand and eight and Then after that, I became the only person out of that group who had the passion for tap dancing.
00:05:07
Speaker
And then 2008, I got gigs here and there until I met Sviso. So Sviso is a percussionist. And for you know from from hearing how he plays and for the love of music that I had and just basics of playing drums, I just threw Sviso because of how he played.
00:05:33
Speaker
You know, i use a lot of... my ear to listen than to watch videos and, and, and, you know, so I met Fiso right after that group, uh, because I was pushing alone.
00:05:48
Speaker
Fiso had this idea. So were supposed to create this show. So Fiso had an idea whilst were doing that show that why don't we do a piece where it's you and me.
00:06:00
Speaker
I'll play drums and then you'll be, you know, a guy who's tap dancing. I was like, yeah, man, let's try that. Let's try that. And then we did that. We did a piece.
00:06:11
Speaker
I think it was long enough to to be featured in that show. That show was a brainchild of Fiso and some other guys. So it was long enough to be featured, but because I didn't like to be the only tap dancer in the show, I had to speak for these older guys who taught me to be part of the show. So Sfiso was like, no, I don't think it's a problem.
00:06:37
Speaker
You can bring them along. um We can, you know, maybe the show will grow. And it did grow. um The show was called Isabelo, if I remember well. Yeah, the show was called Isabelle.
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, Isabelle is... i think... What does Isabelle mean, Gonje? Is it a gift? It's gift, yes. Isabelle, yes. It's a gift. Isabelle, it's a Zulu word that means a gift.
00:07:02
Speaker
So we featured these older the guys. They were part of the show. and then we started, you know, playing routines that they taught me. And then we we brought them into the show.
00:07:12
Speaker
And the show grew. But... as as a person who was always thinking about creating words and stuff, i said, man, look, Fiso.
00:07:25
Speaker
The history of tap dancing, when I learn and you know look at videos, i so I always see and they always tell us that tap dancing was created from the percussions.
00:07:38
Speaker
So why don't we try this word and fuse it? um i have this idea. I'll bring tap, I'll take this word tap, and then I'll take the last part of percussion and then we'll use that. and Then that's how Tebcaching was created.
00:07:56
Speaker
So of course, you know, when you attempt dance or you're a percussionist, whether you like it or not, because you're playing drums, you're playing rhythms, you know, there are so many things that you, so we wanted to explore that.
00:08:09
Speaker
And luckily I had this guy who's always open-minded, who's very creative, who teach me a lot of rudiments from, you know, percussion. So i was like, this is a guy I'm going to stick with.
00:08:20
Speaker
But
Musical Composition and Collaboration
00:08:21
Speaker
because, um, I don't want to say percussion and tap dance are limited due to the fact that you're using your hands and your feet and you don't have musical notes, but we wanted to explore music as a whole.
00:08:36
Speaker
So how can we do this? And Fiso was like, no, I know this guy, he's a bassist. ah He's the third guy in our you know group. He's a bassist and I love bass. I love music, but I i love to learn bass. If I had a chance, I would really, really love to learn that instrument. So he he brought that guy and that opened a world of wonders for us because you know from the rhythms that we have, would create those rhythms, but Sipo, the bassist, would put in his you know musical genius in in what we have and that would open like a world of wonders for us.
00:09:11
Speaker
And then that's how the trio was was was created. From the two of us, from the temp cussiness guys, which is me and Sifiso, we added this guy, we're bassists and that's how the trio was was was created, yeah.
00:09:27
Speaker
Nice. Sifiso, how about you? how When did you start playing percussion? Well, my my my story is very different. So my my story actually started in 1998. a ah I knew nothing about arts. I knew nothing about instrument, about music or anything.
00:09:44
Speaker
So, you know, when you're a kid, you always go out and play, no matter what the place is. So there was a centre... by my house. So it was called Ipe Lehen Community Center, but it was changed to an art center.
00:10:00
Speaker
So this guy called us because we used to go there after school to go play. And when we were there, we were going to see people dancing and what's what's. And the guy took us and he taught us how to play.
00:10:13
Speaker
don't know if guys are familiar with a kamput dance. the yep So that's where I started. And after that, but if you... you can able to play the gambit and you were taken to another level. So we introduced you to something different.
00:10:29
Speaker
And my love for percussion started there and were really taught how to play. ah And you can imagine it was for free and who stopped learning an instrument, not paying for it.
00:10:44
Speaker
And um i we grew up and we introduced to performances and you have to perform for a larger number and people don't know love what you're doing and then you started performing, started creating more.
00:11:02
Speaker
And then later on, ah i stopped and I wanted to start something that's what's my own. Because in South Africa, if you're being recognized, you will perform with anyone.
00:11:15
Speaker
um yeah including yourself, different artists, celebrities, and and and but so on. And yeah, that's why my story is just it's it's just moving because i don' I don't even remember the years.
00:11:28
Speaker
And today I'm here with Buyo and created something that's special for us. And... if I can count the people I worked with, and I've traveled at a very young, young, young age with the instrument, because first it was a djembe before was introduced you to different drums, kongas. And then fast forward, it was the me um having this idea, because I met Buyo through ah project that I was doing.
00:11:59
Speaker
And I think his sense of talent with his feet I saw myself in him because I'm using my hands and he' using his feet. i was like, whatever I'm doing, we are you're doing it with your feet and you can do something that that's out of this world. That's very extraordinary.
00:12:18
Speaker
But along the way, while we were doing it, something that was missing on what we were doing And we'll sing whatever instrument while we're both rehearsing, whatever. tap But because it doesn't make sense to us because it's like i'm I'm doing what you're doing with your feet. So if you can add one element of music, which is ah can be a guitar, it can be a voice, but we we decided to choose a bass guitar.
00:12:46
Speaker
And when we met the guy,
African Influence in Tap Dance
00:12:49
Speaker
the whole idea shifted. And now it made a lot of sense to to call it, oh but but we still start with the word tap-cash-inist, which is tap and percussion. So we never included the bass side.
00:13:06
Speaker
So, but when you look at our bio, it's there, we had to edit. ah But we couldn't say tap-cash-inist bass, no. It didn't make sense to us. So for us to move, I think we came with the name Triad, because it's three of us. ah It gave us, when I say Triad, it's three sides actually to two to this music.
00:13:29
Speaker
So it explained me, Vuyo and the bass guy. And I tell you that there the ah first time we met and sat down, Vuyo,
00:13:42
Speaker
ah started playing with his feet, then it was me, then the guy at Melodies, Harmonies, it made a lot ah lot of sense to us. And since day one, we've been, actually, the three of us, our main oh is to explore why we have these three sides.
00:14:07
Speaker
So our exploration industry history is to feature different artists we still and and try it, but when you perform outside, it's an ensemble. So since then, yeah. um Yeah, the name still aligns to us. the the The name still has our ideas.
00:14:27
Speaker
The name still has authenticity of us, the brain and the creative side. Cool. I'm so um curious about when you when you get together, the three of you, the triad, is it mostly um all improvised or do you start from some base of like ah like a music that you know or a composition you know or do you improvise and then set compositions?
00:14:57
Speaker
How do you create your show? Do you pull from different pieces of your of your life and music or do is it all created? um I'll take this question.
00:15:09
Speaker
So actually our minds, that they're very, very different because we come from different experiences. So I've got my own experience. Vuyo got his own experience.
00:15:20
Speaker
And the guys, people that play as a bass got his own experience. So because of I'm more, I can't say more musical because I've learned music and I'm still learning it in now And ah More or less, we and Vuyo are the same.
00:15:37
Speaker
Right? Because it's more yeah um rudiment, rhythms and all this. But our creative side, Vuyo can come up with something, maybe we can take a rhythm from Vuyo's feet and say, okay, let's figure out what we can add on top of what you're doing.
00:15:54
Speaker
And then maybe I put a percussion or the bass comes after. And then... The nice part about us, because the three of we're very clinical when we when you do our composition.
00:16:06
Speaker
We don't just play and say, no, it's by ear or we're just gonna improvise. no, no. Everything needs to be line. If there's a bridge, you must create a bridge. If we all need to call us because ah we've we've weve we've put this thing on us that's a tap dance.
00:16:24
Speaker
To us, it's no longer it's not a dance. It's part of the music. It's an instrument to us. Yeah. So it's not like if we're behind or at front, everything needs to be in a clump, in a triad, right? So, yes. So when we create, we make sure ah it's not just about improvisation, but we create music.
00:16:45
Speaker
So when you guys are performing, these are compositions you're performing, not live improvisations, correct? Yeah, yeah. It's a very composite, yeah. Yeah, but, you know, the part of improvising is always interesting because we would plan to play maybe two or three songs, but because you see the vibe where you're at, you're inspired by the artists, you meet there, and just something will come out of you.
00:17:11
Speaker
And they always know I just like to create something on the spot. So before we play... those songs, maybe something we're going to improvise on the stage, something, whether we sing or whether we start with shakers or whether with the different rhythm from from tap dancing. So yes, we do have compositions, but for me, improvisation is always like, it it brings us to another composition, if I may if i may say. So yeah yeah, we do have compositions, but also we do improvise a lot.
00:17:44
Speaker
Are you improvising within the like the composed form? Say, like you have a composed like song, is that are you improvising within that form or are you just improvising? No, just out of out of fear. as ive As I've mentioned, you know, I'll be inspired by the vibe you see, but the by the artist we wanted to work with or just by anything right there. So, it would be outside of the composition composition that we have.
00:18:14
Speaker
Hence, we have a lot of unfinished compositions from improvisation. So we have to go back and try to, you know, spark it back. But, you know, you cannot, you only have spark once.
00:18:27
Speaker
and And then we have to sit down because Fiso has a musical background. He's able to read. He's able to write music as well as the bassist guy, Sipo.
00:18:39
Speaker
I didn't have that. um um I create from what I've learned because that old man did not go to school to let him dance. And those guys after him and me as a third generation, we didn't have that privilege.
00:18:53
Speaker
So um it's a privilege to to have Sifiso in this trio and Sipo as well, because There'll be there'll be these guys who say, OK, we see your improvisation, we see what you want to, you know, um do.
00:19:11
Speaker
But how can we approach it like this musical so that we, you know, we can make it make sense more? I'd love to know about.
Cultural Identity and Community Engagement
00:19:21
Speaker
So the the history that that we have of tap dance in the States is, right, it was created out of out of slavery. it was created out of these rhythms, right, that that have come from Africa and have come from, you know,
00:19:35
Speaker
all all different cultures within Africa and um and then kind of came and were created here. And then the drums were taken away from from the slaves and they kept creating rhythm in their bodies, in their feet. And that's kind of how we we look at our history of tap dance here in the States. And I'd love to know then how that then comes back to to you, whether through these guys or or what kind of historical connection you have.
00:20:05
Speaker
um with chant tap dance where you are living and and the connection you have of tap dance to your your culture because it it is coming from you originally, right? Just by way of the States, essentially. Yeah.
00:20:20
Speaker
Okay. it's That's very interesting because that's actually the basis of Terpkashinist or Terpkashin, if I may say. so our thing as as as as, if I may say, as Africans, it's just drumming. It's just rhythm from drums. That's how we speak. Even the way we speak in our languages, you would, if one listens ah closely, you would hear but rhythms from the drum.
00:20:48
Speaker
So as much as I say, we we didn't have we didn't document um a lot of history of how we got tap dancing as South Africans.
00:20:59
Speaker
I don't want to say it's not there because I didn't dig that much. Maybe it's there, I have to dig in and you know just find out. But um the basis of tap cushion is To really show that, to really show how tap dancing came from the drums and how do they relate? Because as you mentioned, when I look at the American tap history, it's so big that I'm always interested. I'm always clued in my phone to learn more because I want to to know this history. And it seems like Americans have it and they know it and they have documented it from like, you know, back then from the master juvahs to tap
00:21:43
Speaker
to you know everyone they mentioned. So that is why we have this thing. But because we have Sfiso who has this more knowledge in drumming, I always clue myself to him and and and ask him, ah how do you feel when you play this rhythm? What does it mean to you?
00:22:02
Speaker
And then I try to translate that into tap dancing as much as I hear the history of what he knows and what he plays. And obviously Spoku, when he brings in the music, obviously you are exposed to these notes, you're exposed to this world of music.
00:22:18
Speaker
And you try to go back and think, how did these people communicate? Because, you know, with drumming is communication. So how did they think of... when the in the absence of drums, we would also continue using our feet. So i I always try to go back in my mind, even though I was not there because I'm still young, but I always try to tap back and just feel how did they feel when they, you know,
00:22:44
Speaker
ah replace the drum with their feet. So the basis of Tebkashin is that. But as Fiso mentioned, we don't want to we don't want to focus on that only. Hence, we want to feature a lot of um musicians because maybe we can learn a lot of things that they can bring into this and it can be a bigger project.
00:23:07
Speaker
And Sifiso, you said you you were doing gambu too as well as as learning the djembe and the congas and all of that. That was part of it too? um Yeah. um Everything that's yeah that's it its it's it's rhythm, it's it's music to me. Yeah. so it goes hand hand to hand. So, gambots, it's radium, it's stamping.
00:23:31
Speaker
It's similar to to tap dance, but it's not. Because that's why you need to do more, clap more, hit, then stamp. the But when it comes to the history of because yeah I always make comparison when it comes to the history.
00:23:52
Speaker
when When I see Vyot does the same dance, to me it it's the same as there's ah there's a culture here at home it's called the Botswana. So that dance is more into feet than using the whole body.
00:24:08
Speaker
So when Vyot does the same, it's the same as it fits, then it's rhythm on top, then it it has that comparison of of both. And it comes to when it comes to rhythm, drums were used more into communication.
00:24:25
Speaker
So if if if if you if you think of in the olden days how we were situated, so my house would be here, then Buyo's house would be 50 to 100 kilometers away from me.
00:24:39
Speaker
So I wouldn't walk to give Vuyo the information. So I have to play a rhythm that will go far as Vuyo. Then if Vuyo gets that rhythm, he will reply also with a certain rhythm and say, okay, okay, so he's going to play this rhythm. It means there's something that's going on and in his village.
00:24:57
Speaker
um or maybe there's a does' a there's a funeral so rhythms were differentiated in different ways so if you play a session rhythm like one if there's a there's a rhythm called ahola ah it's in It's in West Africa.
00:25:14
Speaker
So when you play it, it's it's it's it's you introducing yourself to them and say, I'm home. So welcome you with warm hands. So I'll play that rhythm and they will welcome you.
00:25:25
Speaker
So it's the same as as as what we're trying to to do as the triad. We're not trying to to run away from our own history. uh so whatever Vio does we always take from different because Vio is closer closer and and and and and my language they are two different so he's got his own but I've got my own so I do things in my in different ways but there are things that they will they'll be similar so Vio your culture you do this and my culture will do it means me and you still have that same thing even if it's ah it's it's different so
00:26:03
Speaker
um In terms of what we're trying to put out there, we're still stuck on our on on our our own identity than trying to copy someone else, like tap the answer today in America.
00:26:16
Speaker
And the way Vuo does it, we make sure that it has our own footprint, it has our own signature also. So, yeah. Yeah, no you know, when you say that, um remember South Africa has like 11 official languages of which is different cultures also. yeah So as i've mentioned as I've mentioned before we recorded that I'm half Tosa and I'm half Tawana.
00:26:40
Speaker
A lot of my rhythms are are taken from my partner side, which is Tawana. That is why in my counting, most of the time i would do a three, four signature time signature.
Challenges and Triumphs of International Tours
00:26:53
Speaker
This is what joiners use most of of the time in their songs and in their rhythms is three, four or six, eight most of the time. So I tap into that culture, even though, as I've mentioned, that I don't know my paternal side that deep.
00:27:09
Speaker
But because you're you're walking with this thing, it's in you, you're born by them. it it it it just shows, just emanates when you perform. And I've noticed that, oh, it means I'm walking with my paternal side more.
00:27:25
Speaker
And hence, I've tried to develop this style of tap dancing, this side. Yes, I always check a lot of tap dancers in America. I'm always inspired by them.
00:27:38
Speaker
i always reach out, try to learn, ask questions. But as Fiso mentioned, you cannot run away from identity. So... when I learned from this American tap dancers, when I find out about the history and stuff, I always come back and try to infuse what they are teaching me with what I have here at home.
00:27:58
Speaker
And it just, you know, gives, and it just, you know, it, it gives something different. Um, Hence, when we perform here in South Africa, we've performed in Tanzania and Nigeria and they really connected with us because we didn't leave that element of, you know, being Africans. So they related with us very much. So that's what we try to do. We don't we don't run our away.
00:28:20
Speaker
In fact, even if we tie as much, you know, as Fiso mentioned, we we sit down, we want a bridge in some composition, you know, we want a hook there, but always something African would pop out and we'll just let it, you know, be, because we cannot run away from that. So...
00:28:38
Speaker
um I don't check a lot of tap dancers to elevate my style. I always check musicians. So that's how I get inspired. I check Spice or how he plays.
00:28:50
Speaker
I check a bassist. I check someone who sings. i you know I check a lot of musicians so that I bring a different element into the culture of tap dancing. than going back to check maybe the Nicholas Brothers of which they were amazing in their style.
00:29:06
Speaker
But to bring something different in this modern time, why don't I check different musicians and listen to how they play and try to bring it in tap dancing, try to bring it in tap, Kashin is tried and have this. This is why we don't have um limited songs. It's because ah we we check a lot of musicians each and every time.
00:30:10
Speaker
You're listening to the Relative Rhythms podcast and our conversation with Fuyo Mdingi and Sofisu Maseku of the South African group Tapkashanist Triad. If you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review wherever you are listening. And if you'd like to support our work, you can join our Patreon where we catalog our full, unedited episodes and share extra content including unreleased music and videos.
00:30:32
Speaker
You can also check out our brand new store where you can get Relative Rhythms merch. Pick up a t-shirt and show off your nerdiness. Go to RelativeRhythms.com. Thanks for tuning in. And now back to our conversation with Fuyo and Sapisa.
00:30:49
Speaker
Oh
00:31:13
Speaker
We, I am a tap dancer, was born and raised here in the States. And um it is so different, such a different approach, which um I find so interesting, right? So we we are very much like about, like Sufizo, you were saying, it's more about the rhythms he's creating, not so much his whole body, right?
00:31:34
Speaker
Whereas here in the States, it's more about, tends to be, that's generalization, but it tends to be more about mimicking, um shape, even shape with your feet, right? Like, oh, my shape, make sure visually my shape is the same as your shape. So I'm making the same sound instead of what is the sound and how can I recreate the sound? It's like picture, right?
00:31:59
Speaker
In some ways, I think that it inhibits us and and thinking in terms of musically, than the creation of music, it it kind of is inhibiting because we're we're thinking more about the visual aspect and less about the musical aspect.
00:32:16
Speaker
Okay, interesting. yeah Yeah. yeah it' tell was it That's this what mentioned. but it said it mention ah more ah of our composition or creation.
00:32:28
Speaker
That's why we never labeled Vuio as a dancer, but we label him as a as a musician. yeah So he' his he's part of the music, he's in the music, yeah not outside the music.
00:32:41
Speaker
So we're not like we're playing for him to dance to the music. right But he's part of the music. yeah Without him, there's no triad. Without him, there's no sound. Without him, there's... there's There's nothing, there's no triad.
00:32:55
Speaker
So if he's he's not there, we can't do the cake, we can't do anything. We can't improvise. yeah, that's what saying. With us, we tried to label him, but we couldn't. So yeah.
00:33:09
Speaker
we tried to label him but yeah we couldn't so yeah How do you feel like with two percussionists, you being both percussionists, how do you feel like you um support each other or play off of each other? Or is one person sometimes taking a support role while the other person soars over top or you both kind of moving together? do you switch roles or do you find yourself kind of in the same position?
00:33:39
Speaker
I never thought of that. will I don't know. But I would think it depends on the composition that we we we we we we we we did on the songs that we have.
00:33:50
Speaker
But obviously when when you're in a band, the the biggest thing is to listen to each other. you you know You cannot play over someone who is, unless it's a feeling that we get you know out of improvisation, obviously we cannot control it because we don't know where it's taking us.
00:34:09
Speaker
So in that regard, maybe we would play simultaneously without you know thinking if I have to you know be at the background, support, be so.
00:34:19
Speaker
But in the compositions, we make it intentional ah for for one percussionist out of the two of us to support or to be in the front. So we make it intentional. I don't know if it makes sense.
00:34:32
Speaker
Because it's a composition, it's supposed to make sense. As percussionists in the triad, we do listen to each other.
00:34:43
Speaker
We do give each other space. and Sometimes we just want play simultaneously ah in this one song, especially when we improvise. um you know We would have ah call and respond.
00:34:57
Speaker
You would have me supporting his solo and just hold this one beat and vice versa like that. so yeah, we do we do consider such things, especially when it's it's a composition.
00:35:09
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I didn't realize you guys said that you guys are touring internationally now. Yeah, we got this opportunity.
00:35:20
Speaker
That's huge. Yeah, no, we but but she weve got got it twice, actually. But thanks to Fiso and his, you know, cunning way of... um trying to reach out, you know, out there and, you know, applying for funds, you know, he's always, he's always like, he's that paper guy. So he we we got this funding from our government, where Spiso applied along with this colleague of his, where he works.
00:35:49
Speaker
um And fortunately we got that funding and then we went to Tanzania first, right? sp on it Yeah, yeah you went to tanzan yeah, yeah. We Yeah, yeah. Wow. No, actually, the first one, no we we we were invited at Bagamoyo.
00:36:04
Speaker
Before we got, think they saw us on on on Facebook and then they they invited us. There was a letter, guys would love to guys see here, to come here.
00:36:15
Speaker
But the problem was... they wanted us to fund our trip. So you get an invitation and they say, you guys must pay for your flights, must pay for accommodation. was like, that's not invitation. If you guys want to invite us and say, guys, okay, we're going to meet you halfway on your accommodation or flight. Exactly. Yeah, but on this one, was a zero from their side.
00:36:35
Speaker
yeah But I said to Vujov, this could be a great opportunity for us to go, um but showcase what what we have, because this thing is very unique. ah I've never seen in anyone done this before.
00:36:48
Speaker
And if we can get one invite, it means we weve we can travel the world. But ah in that sense, there was a call here at home, what they do um every year, there's a call with groups, local groups, you can guys apply for funds. And if your application passes, then they'll give you money.
00:37:09
Speaker
So by luck, we did get that fund and we said to the guys, listen, ah you guys are giving us zero, we're going to come with our 100%. We're going to give you guys a workshop, then pay perform for you. And when we get there, we get a different experience where they've enjoyed and appreciated what we had.
00:37:32
Speaker
And um i don't think I told you this, and they wanted us to come back this year. But now the approach is different. um I said to them, we can't come for free.
00:37:43
Speaker
I know you guys, yeah, ah if you can't, it's come twice for free, no. So then you said, they're going to reach out to your government, but they would really love us to come. And this time is going to be longer.
00:37:55
Speaker
And also, we are being invited to come to Botswana. Wow. um And we we we're supposed to perform at, I know, it's the biggest biggest festival here in South Africa, which happened this year.
00:38:11
Speaker
They also invited us, but this time imagine your own government invites you for free. So you must, was like, guys, no, we can't do this anymore. No. It's a big festival. I said, guys, we'd love you guys to come here. I was like, no, we can't.
00:38:29
Speaker
And you can imagine you're in the posters. ah People know that you guys are coming. People bought tickets, but you had to say, we can't. As you know, but sometimes but people don't respect the musicians. We're doing this out of it i know it's out of love, but and at the end, needs to and it needs to at least elevate you.
The Role of Governmental Support in Arts
00:38:53
Speaker
and that's it's it's It's really growing in in ah in ah in a pace where we really appreciate it. ah Even though people for now people don't understand what you're doing.
00:39:04
Speaker
But the nice part about it, it really it's nice, but the sad part, when we get to the venues, we tend to make people don't believe what we were doing on stage. And they'll be amazed, who guys, where are you from?
00:39:18
Speaker
I said, you know, we're from here in South Africa, but you guys were all the time where were you guys? said, no, we're here. So if guys want us, we can just come. So even here at the home, as much as we do this out of love, it's it's really hard to push and three it's really hard to be recognized.
00:39:38
Speaker
who But the opportunities that we're getting, we make sure that we grab them with both hands, then we move. like the toll we got in Tanzania. um I think here at home, you're more appreciated outside than here.
00:39:52
Speaker
and Unless you are, you know, when you are a big Senate president, they will consider you. So because it's it's it it's it's our baby, we respect it and we know our targets and we know where we're going with all of this.
00:40:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's the ah it's very similar over here. no one No one ever wants to pay for music. They don't want to pay for musicians. It's like, oh, you guys can play for free, right? Yeah.
00:40:21
Speaker
yeah For the love of it. But also... we We are not saying, um because we're still trying to push this idea to be in our government mind, um we're not saying we're not going to do, we're not going to honor any invitation that they give us.
00:40:40
Speaker
In actual fact, we have honored more invitations that we'll propone and we are happy to do it, you know, because it's for us, it's maybe we are the pioneers of this. Maybe a generation coming after us will be rewarded with whatever we're trying to, you know, pay for them, of which is not a problem.
00:41:01
Speaker
But I think meeting us halfway, you know, as a government meeting us halfway to reach, uh, where we are trying to put cultural exchange. Like, for example, when we went to Tanzania, we were supposed to do cultural exchange. So it meets us halfway so that we can reach places.
00:41:20
Speaker
And then when we get there, we know that we are pushing these ideas going to be planted everywhere. yeah as As opposed to, say, dig into your pockets. I mean, we don't have anything in our pockets, so we have to have this, you know, finding to make us reach where we are trying to plant this seed.
00:41:37
Speaker
So, yeah not to say we are not doing pro boners, we are actually doing them, you know, and for us it's not a problem, but we're trying to plant, we're trying to plant each and every everywhere we go.
Innovative Teaching Methods
00:41:50
Speaker
Do you guys teach music as well? Teach dance and music? Yeah. ah Yeah, on my side, um I had to go to school actually.
00:42:02
Speaker
After my matric, I didn't have the opportunity to go to university to study further, but I had one opportunity, which is a community center.
00:42:13
Speaker
I think they saw me somewhere, then they invited me to come teach their kids. So they have a something called, they call SAA, which is a so weekend school for kids.
00:42:24
Speaker
okay So I teach percussion and then ah got an opportunity so also to learn um about creative arts. So we go to school, then we teach, then there's a subject here at home where most of the teachers don't understand, which which includes music, includes dance, it includes ah drawing, coloring, whatsoever.
00:42:43
Speaker
So in that space, so we, they take us to schools, um, to teach the teachers and the learners how this can be approached. So yeah, we do teach, I think even we does, right. And also to have his own workshops, um,
00:43:00
Speaker
Is it every week, twice, Buyo? Yeah, i do its choice it's twice a week. You've done it for free. yeah Yeah, I'm doing it for free. For now, I'm doing it for free because, as I've mentioned earlier, this idea of tap dancing here is still this foreign concept for a lot of people, you know?
00:43:17
Speaker
They still get amazed at at what you're doing with your feet. So... i'm I'm pushing it for free for the sake of, you know, pushing our awareness for our people to learn tap dancing. So it's twice a week, but it's it's slow because it's, as i'm as I'm saying, it's a foreign concept. So I'm being patient with people. You know, people would come...
00:43:40
Speaker
um this week and then next week they won't come or for a month they won't come but i don't i don't i don't give up even if i'm alone in the class i'll still push you know yeah um for the sake of you know pushing the drive pushing the momentum until this thing catches fire and we have a lot of tap dancers in here so we do teach uh and i also got an opportunity via speso um do um ah I had ah to call someone, so I called Vyo to come ah take this opportunity to also learn how to teach, which it has a a certificate after which is recognized by the ba our government, education government.
00:44:25
Speaker
So that they take you guys to school to go teach and ah for Vyo, which is... what he does, it's not on textbook, our textbook.
00:44:36
Speaker
So I've been given up an opportunity to to actually give what you can offer to every school. So yeah, I think ah from me us individually, we we we're learning different things and we're partaking into different things, but at the end, it it's still us.
00:44:56
Speaker
Yeah. It's still us. You know, as says as a musician, can't just rely on you own yourself. it needs You need to hustle. You need to side hustle to keep the life going. Yeah. let's Feel that. Yeah.
00:45:08
Speaker
When you are teaching, say, when you went to Tanzania or you went into these schools, you the Do you bring percussion instruments to we let the kids try? Or do you have like bucket drumming or do you just the slapping? Like, how do you and and then same for Vuyo too, does he bring tap shoes for people or do they just use their feet or their boots or their bare feet? or Or how does that work with in terms of sharing? Vuyo, I'm going to speak for you now.
00:45:41
Speaker
Cause I've seen him teach. yeah i've seen him teach So you always improvise, but and in Tep's shoe, I think he has came with an idea of doing his own shoes. He will buy, we'll go to town, get old shoes, then we convert them into Tep.
00:45:59
Speaker
So like we take old tins, yes, we cut the tins, then we make two things underneath the shoe. And then, yeah, it's easier for that. Then he makes different sizes. Wow, that's so cool. Yeah.
00:46:13
Speaker
So yeah as much as we are limited, but you don't have to limit yourself also. Right. So yeah, we tried. If if if we have extra cash, we say, no, we must go to town now. We get those um old shoes, then we but then we convert them into tap dance. Then when it comes to me, well, I think I'm the one who was more fortunate. I...
00:46:35
Speaker
I have my own instrument. So I buy motor arms, even the small ones, when I teach, I take them with me and I'll give the kids and when they're done, then I'll take them away. Then in terms of teaching, you know we all started into basics. So that's where you start.
00:46:52
Speaker
But with me, we started with the history of the chamber and then ah the basics, how we can play. And sometimes if I'm with Vuyo, I'll do what Vuyo does with feet, then transfer into drums, then create something on the spot.
00:47:06
Speaker
Then the kids, they have the rhythm, they have the choreography and everything. So that's why for us, it's more of a movement. It's more, if one has an opportunity, we'll always have to take one with him.
00:47:20
Speaker
yeah So like we're pushing Yeah it so It can be an individual So if you say you're my brother you must make sure That I'm with you Everywhere you go I love it So yeah That's what we do Most of the time Every now We're doing a ah A performance, I think last month, I think you guys saw and there an Instagram and Facebook. It was one of the ah the videos that we watched and we got an invitation again.
00:47:52
Speaker
um The invitation is next year. So after the performance we did, it was a folklor community concert. So these guys, they saw us performing at Black Laboon. It's one of the the concerts that happens each and every Thursday.
00:48:09
Speaker
It's in Pretoria. If you're paying to join this back, you must know Pretoria. So it's in Crisoda, we were invited there. They saw a video also on on um social media. They said, guys, we want to lend a hand for you guys to come perform your thing in a bigger stage.
00:48:26
Speaker
we it It's for free, like everyone could go there, watch the shows. And we did that performance and it was there the highlight of the day.
00:48:37
Speaker
As you know, us it's something that's unique it even shocked as an individual we type how did you come up with such such ideas such concepts which makes everyone be amazed of
Audience Engagement and Podcast Conclusion
00:48:50
Speaker
us with guys how and we say we don't know but we we are here we yeah we also don't know it's it was an idea and the way it was executed um It actually came with magic. um
00:49:07
Speaker
You can imagine the tap and percussion. and at base Then you then you add voices, they like melodies and everything. So it becomes magical. Then we will stuck in a rehearsal, not to want to go home after we did one one one composition. guys But how?
00:49:24
Speaker
Now we're here, so we we must move. So what I'm trying to say is... ah oh As much as we we we we have limited resources, we don't try to limit ourselves also. And when it comes to teaching, when it comes to composition, ah you know as artists, you're the last person to be respected. You have been asked to come play for people who'll eat dinner, not even paying too much attention to you.
00:49:54
Speaker
but on this one that's why we were saying it was more intentional so when we play we want you to listen we don't want you to eat while you hear that background music I love how how you as as the instrumentalist percussionist really speak about taking inspiration from <unk> as as the tap instrumentalist percussionist and and how it's you really are, are both there. Like you said, you don't want people to, so to just sit and be eating and be background. You, you both, both are, and the triad, the full triad are all there on the same level, on the same equal playing field. Cause a lot of times we think, I know Adam can feel like this at some point, like when, when you have a dancer step into your band, it's like, that becomes like yeah everybody looks at that because it's so visual
00:50:49
Speaker
But um it so it can be like, well oh, we're looking at the dancer instead of looking at the whole. um But it's really interesting to hear you how you speak about Vulu and how you speak about the triad being all there, all to be visual, but also to be heard and to be seen and to be appreciated all together. It's really cool.
00:51:10
Speaker
Yeah, not only feeding the ears, also feed your eyes also. Yeah. ah Like keep you just said now, it's surprising because of we always put Vuyo in front because he's our attention creeper.
00:51:23
Speaker
People who never saw, they don't know what tap dance is and how we fuse it with the music. it's It always gives them a surprise. Because when we mic, we we always mic differently. We need to put our mics down for Vuyo and people have to see how how we dance, how we move through the music.
00:51:43
Speaker
right So that's why it makes us very, very, very unique. Because you youd so sometimes find ah people that you play for dancers, they need to dance for music.
00:51:55
Speaker
so But for, in our instance, Vuyo needs to be part of the music. So if it's not in the music, then it's incomplete. So yeah, that's why it it always drives us, even though we he's in front, but he can't be in the back of us. He needs to be in front every time.
00:52:12
Speaker
So we can able to see him, because we don't even see him dance, for us, we always get lost. If you can't see Vuo in our music, because he always drives us in whatever we do.
00:52:27
Speaker
Interesting. that Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because we count. When we do music, it's all about counting. But it's instant Vuo will change. Instead of playing, we know we're going to the bridge.
00:52:39
Speaker
Or when we do this stuff, know that now the song needs to end or we start over. So that's why as it's oh it's it's it's visual. So we need to look at him when we play. If clears your eyes, the song is gone.
00:52:53
Speaker
That's so interesting. Like me, yeah, I had to remove this thing of, you know how when you play percussion, when you play percussion, you need to listen to yourself when you play. But it's it instant. You need to listen to everyone and look.
00:53:07
Speaker
So it's almost like um in some ways he's almost ah like conducting in some way. or leading ah group in some way.
00:53:18
Speaker
In some way, he is ah leading the group. ah As much as we can play, we can can do the composition it needs to align with whatever we do as individuals.
00:53:29
Speaker
But in this instance, we know that we always love to lead. and And yeah, he loves to lead. And for us, we can be sitting ah in a rehearsal space and get confused because need to learn the step, what he does on the feet.
00:53:43
Speaker
So we need to look at when it turns or when he does a certain step, we know that the music now needs to change or we need to move to a second part. Gotcha. even Even so, yeah, we can do the tense.
00:53:55
Speaker
It can be percussion that listens to the song. Then they will have to listen things to me. But and weo instead of Vuyo, it's hard for us because we need to learn the dance.
00:54:07
Speaker
Yeah, we don't have to dance, but we must know it. Yeah. right Recognize. if we are making mistakes, then the song is done. Vuyo, you've killed the whole song because we're waiting. We know that we're doing three steps here.
00:54:18
Speaker
Then we move to this step. Then we move. So we did five, so we all danced, so we didn't know what to do. So that's why we're intentional and we make sure when we do our thing, we need to perfect it. If one song can be rehearsed in a whole week, then we rehearse one song in a whole week.
00:54:35
Speaker
Because naturally we learn the dance in our minds, in our heads. We also tap dancers while we play our own instrument. Interesting. I love that. I love that. Interesting. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much, guys.
00:54:48
Speaker
Really, really, really appreciate it.
00:55:09
Speaker
You've been listening to our conversation with Vuyo Mdingi and Safisu Maseku of the South African band Tapcushionist Triad. You can find out more about their group on the socials at Tapcushionist Triad, and you can find Vuyo on the socials at Tapcushionist and Safisu on the socials at MasterPECS.
00:55:28
Speaker
If you liked our conversation today, please follow and leave a rating or review wherever you are listening. If you'd like to support our work, you can join us at patreon.com slash relative rhythms, where you can gain access to all of our uncut episodes and extra content.
00:55:41
Speaker
Our theme song is For the Love of It by the Adam Price Group. Featuring Emily Jane Agree on foot percussion. Our mid-roll and outro songs are two tracks by Tapcushna's Triad recorded live at one of their most recent shows.
00:55:54
Speaker
Don't forget to follow us on all the socials at Relative Rhythms and feel free to send us a message. Check out our merch on our website, relativerhythms.com. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next episode.
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Speaker
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