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Our interview with tap dancer and recording artist, Daniel Luka. We talk about his album with Roman Babik, his unlikely training tap dancing with live musicians at a young age, how he approaches tap dance musically, being mentored by Sarah Petronio, and his approach to teaching improvisation to tap dancers.
Support our work at patreon.com/RelativeRhythms
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DANIEL LUKA
WEBSITE: https://www.danielluka.com/
INSTAGRAM: @danielluka_
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RELATIVE RHYTHMS
WEBSITE: www.relativerhythms.com
EMAIL US: relativerhythms@gmail.com
INSTAGRAM: @relativerhythms
FACEBOOK: Relative Rhythms
TIKTOK: @relativerhythms
...
MUSIC:
Theme: "For the Love of It" by The Adam Price Group
Midroll: "Cambrio" by Daniel Luka & Roman Babik
Outro: "3 & a Floor" by Daniel Luka & Roman Babik
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Relative Rhythms Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi everyone, my name is Emily Jane Acree. And my name is Adam Price. And you're listening to the Relative Rhythms Podcast. Today we are excited to introduce to you tap dancer and recording artist Daniel Luca.
Daniel Luca's Album Re-release
00:00:15
Speaker
Daniel is a German-born, Paris-based tap dancer and musician who tours all over Europe as a sought-after educator and performer. Daniel just recently re-released his 2017 album, Three and a Floor.
00:00:29
Speaker
Previously only available on physical media, it is now available on streaming platforms worldwide.
Daniel's Early Musical Journey
00:00:36
Speaker
We talk with him about his unique education, being invited to gig with his teacher and her jazz combo at a very young age, and then being taught and mentored by the musicians as he took over the role of band leader.
00:00:48
Speaker
We also talk about his album. being mentored by Sarah Petronio in Paris, his teaching style, and how he approaches teaching improvisation to TAP students. This was such a great conversation, and we hope you enjoy it as much as we did.
Path to Professional Tap Dancing
00:01:03
Speaker
And without further ado, please welcome to the podcast, Daniel Luca.
00:01:10
Speaker
All
00:01:14
Speaker
right, Daniel Luca, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me. We usually start each episode asking our guests ah to give us a kind of little superhero backstory about how they came to the art and when they decided to pursue it as a career.
00:01:31
Speaker
All right. So, well, then let's travel back in time then. So, I started tap dancing at the age of five. ah Actually, really by coincidence, because um because I saw a TV show with my with my family ah called the Eurovision Song Contest. I don't know if you guys aware of what the Eurovision Song Contest heard about that, yes! It's like a huge thing!
00:01:55
Speaker
In Europe, it I mean, it used to be the thing, like back in the day, we would meet on a Saturday night every year to watch the Eurovision Song Contest, ah where every European country has like a band or a singer representing the country. and yeah So it's a huge thing. I think it's still a huge thing and in in Europe.
00:02:16
Speaker
And so we were watching the Eurovision Song Contrast, or the Grand Prix Eurovision de la Chanson. Back then it was still a French name. And so every time...
00:02:27
Speaker
a musical act wins, the country will be next year's host of the Eurovision Song Contest. So in that year it was Ireland and they had as an intermission performance a six-minute piece called Riverdance, which was pre-Riverdance the show and anything which is just that small little performance where nobody thought it could be like a show or anything.
00:02:51
Speaker
However, we we're watching that contest with the whole family and I just remember seeing that guy flying over the stage, moving his feet quickly, doing all the sounds, just him and drums and the whole... I was blown away. was like, that's what I want to do. that' it i want to I want to learn that.
00:03:10
Speaker
And that's just the moment because that's for nobody recorded the the show or anything, you couldn't watch it online, that's pre-internet and anything. So it was just the moment and we were like, okay, what to my family that was tap dance because nobody knew about Irish dancing back then. I mean, outside of Ireland or maybe the Irish communities in the US, Canada, wherever, I mean, nobody knew what Irish dancing was.
00:03:33
Speaker
So in their mind, it was like the guy moved. I think my grandma even said was like, a that's a young Fred Astaire kind of person. So to them, it was clear that was that was tap dance. So we're trying to find a studio to sign me up for a tap dance class, which wasn't very easy to find. But then eventually we'll find we found um a studio and not in my hometown, but not too far away, but also not around the corner. So it was kind of a mission to get there.
00:04:03
Speaker
and uh they did not really have tap dance classes they had ah what they call the rad the royal academy of dance system which is actually ballet but they also have part of that program is like ah a small all kind of dance styles thing where they have a little modern a little hip-hop and also little tap dance okay so so we asked them if if there's any chance that I could only take the tap dance classes, not because I wasn't interested in doing the whole program, but it was just not that close to my hometown. And I guess because I was a boy and they said yes, because every studio needs boys. So they were like, yeah, of course, you can you can start right now.
00:04:44
Speaker
What do you want to do? to Do anything, whatever. We'll just take you. Exactly, exactly. So there's a five-year-old without any dancers in the family coming because he wants to dance. So they were like, yeah, yeah, whatever you want. and So, and this is actually where I started tap dancing in that, in that small, um actually ballet studio within that program, uh, where they offer tap dance classes in the overall RAD system. and yeah And, uh, so I, I remember like starting in that school, which was actually not what I expected it to be.
00:05:21
Speaker
Cause what I saw on the, on, on TV was so much more spectacular than, um Also, the way she was teaching, looking back, of course, it was part of that system. So we learned our shuffles on the bar, you know, like. And she had that one CD, which I still have, yeah which is Judy and Bessing's Tap for Toddlers.
00:05:43
Speaker
And it's nice. nice And it's like so every exercise has track. And it's always the same music for for all the exercises. I mean, every lesson was literally the same. And it always ended with the Mexican hat dance. and That sounds so painful.
00:06:03
Speaker
yes i mean, she did she was a nice lady and I guess she was inspired by... um I don't know what she was inspired by, but it was not the main thing. It was just part of that program. And I think looking back, you can definitely tell that she was not a tap dancer. and um But yeah, this is this is where I started my my tap dancing journey in that school close to my hometown, dancing to Judy and Bessing's Tap for Toddler once a week for an hour or so. Nice.
00:06:34
Speaker
So being at that school, I did that for a couple of years and around, like I think I was age eight or nine. Like by the time I was nine, I said, I can't do that anymore. I love, I love tap dance, but I can't go there because it kept repeating. I mean, it's kind of the same thing over and over again.
00:06:52
Speaker
And not because I was incredibly talented at the craft. It was just like, because after like the first year of taking that class, you got it. And then it's kind of repeating.
00:07:02
Speaker
So after two or three years, I was like, I can't do that anymore. So I stopped taking the classes and we were like trying and trying to find another dance school, which just didn't exist. And back then it was that, I don't know how you call it, that business book where you would look, okay, plumber, i need a plumber. Yellow pages or whatever. kind Yellow pages, exactly.
00:07:24
Speaker
So you were at dance studios and we were always trying to find a dance studio, which had tap dance or in Germany, they called it, um, step tons. Cause this is where was. born and grew up. So, uh, but if we couldn't find a studio. So I kept dancing on my own.
00:07:39
Speaker
And, uh, there was actually, that was an interesting time because it was the first time that I realized that I could continue the dance without following that tap for toddlers program.
00:07:54
Speaker
Right. And i actually i realized, oh, that's pretty, that's a pretty cool thing to do. And I fell, I kind of fell in love of just doing it on my own. Hmm. and started inventing steps, which of course were no invention at all. But I, cause like shuffles, for instance, we were at that program, the shuffles were always a titi, a titi, a titi, titi, titi. So we would never go binary, like straight shuffles or anything. So while I was dancing on my own, I discovered like, oh I could also do a di di di and have skip that moment in between. It's a di di di
00:08:31
Speaker
i am i'm inventing shufflesles here It's like after all the TAP for Toddlers training, I'm discovering new things. And I started like playing around with the the techniques that were given to me and and having fun with it. Like really playing around like kids do, because that's what I was. A kid just playing around with the stuff without a teacher, but like with my tap shoes and ah and the music I like to listen to.
00:08:58
Speaker
Like a radio with a cassette um tape recording function, which was like the greatest thing on earth and I would whenever music I liked it would just record it and then play it and dance to it but and that was just what I did for like maybe two years And then finally, within that yellow pages, we found there's a new dance studio in town and they're offering tap dance classes. And that was the greatest luck because the lady who was teaching at that school was part of that first big wave of Europeans traveling to the U.S. in order to learn from the masters, coming back and then teaching it in Europe.
00:09:38
Speaker
Like in Germany, these were people like Thomas Marek, Sebastian Weber. Her name was Ina Haller. and And so they all they opened that studio. She was offering tap dance classes. I went there and that was that changed that was the game changer. First of all, I realized I didn't invent anything.
00:09:57
Speaker
And then I realized that they like to create sound. They like to dance to music. I mean, it was a whole different... At the very beginning, she was kind of she was not making fun of me, but she was like,
00:10:10
Speaker
what are you doing with your arms because we were told for like a flat ball change we had to do the arms and you know like to to cross across the floor with the arms and stuff so in my head was like that's just part of it she was like that's so she tried to be nice she was like that's cool but you I kind of don't have to do it. I mean, where did you get that from?
00:10:32
Speaker
she was She was just a cool, cool lady. And she um she was really into jazz and it didn't take that long. I think I was a year. So I started dancing with her when I was 11.
00:10:44
Speaker
And by the time I was like 12, she asked me if I want to go gigging with her on the weekends because she was doing so jazz brunches and jazz.
00:10:55
Speaker
It's not clubs. It was live music pubs on the weekends. And for I'm in. ah My mom, she knew her and she was like, ah cool, that's your mom then when you go to live music. But she was my mom for the night if anybody asked questions or whatever. So we and we started gigging because she had ah she had a band, a trio.
00:11:14
Speaker
and Most of the time were the same same guys. And so every weekend we went for jazz brunches or like early evening live music pub ah gigs.
00:11:26
Speaker
and That was my introduction into that world and I i loved it so much because um she also was not too much into choreography. um we had We had our bits. we had um well Her main influences were Honey Cold, Buster Brown and Chuck Green. so One of the first routines I learned was the walk around. yeah ah Which until I saw the footage of the copacetics doing the walk around at one point was a little boring to me. was like, do we have to do it again? The walk around. And then, of course, when I discovered who Honey Cold is and the copacetics, I was, oh my God, I'm so blessed that I...
00:12:04
Speaker
But, you know, when you're 12, however. So we had like little bits to open the set, maybe something in between. But then it was about improv within that context, too. So from a very early age on. But that doesn't feel strange to me because that's kind of what I did before, like listening to music and just doing stuff. And she was absolutely encouraging that.
00:12:26
Speaker
So that was the moment i that whole thing started. And to fast forward a bit, by the time I was 14, she, for a variety of private reasons, stopped dancing.
00:12:40
Speaker
And now the studio, because they had some students, um they were like asking me if I could imagine until they find a new teacher to like teach her classes.
00:12:51
Speaker
which I, because I knew everyone at the studio didn't feel strange to me at all, agreed to. At 14? At 14. Wow, that's crazy. I mean, looking looking back, to me, it felt so like normal, usual, natural. I don't know, yeah because we were just, that studio became my second home, to be honest.
00:13:11
Speaker
And also like them the classes I was supposed to, mean, the classes that I took over eventually in the end, These were all people I was dancing with all the time because I took all the classes. So it was really not like putting a 14 year old in front of a group of grown ups. I knew her way to like warm up. I knew what her exercises were. So I was just supposed to do it for a while.
00:13:37
Speaker
Turned out in the end they didn't find anyone and I did it for like two years before I left the studio. But the same thing happened with the gigs on the weekend. Because, as I said, she stopped dancing. So by that time, I became a very um ah overwhelmed at the beginning um band leader of those guys. wow We were gigging on the weekend.
00:14:01
Speaker
yeah So cool. Like, what an awesome opportunity at such a young age. It was. I mean, gigging with the guys was a different story than teaching in the studio, though, I have to say. Because these were old... ah old jazz dudes, you know, and they were like, they were not making life easy for me in the beginning. Cause, uh, I mean, but after like, I'd say half a year, maybe they really, we really got along and eventually became, they became like my granddads to be honest. yeah Like, and then they were like, okay, that young dude is really interesting in what we do. And,
00:14:36
Speaker
So they, they started teaching me all this stuff that that was university for me, to be honest, because I had no idea what a meter was. I had no idea what a note value was. I didn't know anything at all.
00:14:47
Speaker
wow And they were like, all right, if you want to lead that band, we have to sit down and and talk about a couple of things because, um, yeah. What's a form, how to, I mean, I didn't know anything cause she was always there.
00:15:00
Speaker
Right. So I jumped in, i did my thing. And by the time she gave me a sign, I knew, okay, I have to stop dancing. But now she was not there anymore. you know And um I remember the first gig I had with the guys, because we were always starting with the same tune.
00:15:16
Speaker
it was it's It's from a German saxophone player called Götz Alsmann. You probably wouldn't know him and the tune's called Ulala, whatever. It's like a medium swing thing. got it bit in i'm at down good know So we would do that tune. If we wouldn't do the walk around, we would do this tune and just dance between the people towards the space where we... But she would always count in the guys. I never saw her doing it.
00:15:40
Speaker
I only... Okay, music starts. Here we go. So they are waiting for me to give the count. And, you know, like the drummer is looking at me and he's like, you want to count us in? And was like, I don't know what to do.
00:15:54
Speaker
And as if he wanted to like really like get to me here and like a ticket do ticket ticket do ticket do ticket yeah just like tempo, up tempo. It's like, OK, kiddo doesn't know what he wants. So let's burn it.
00:16:06
Speaker
That kind of, and that went on for a good while with the guys. Yeah. that's Man, talk about an education. That is awesome. Right, exactly. But then eventually, as I said, i mean, we really got close and I mean, one of the guys, one of the drummers,
00:16:23
Speaker
He actually became like a second i don't know like a second dad, granddad, whatever. So he really um he really helped me a lot. and Actually, my first own concert project I did with him. and we had a We had a cool and nice relationship. right yeah yeah yeah But he was like 55 years older than I was. yeah that's really Also, I feel like they had to like make sure that you were going to stick around. you know i feel like a little test almost. Absolutely.
00:16:54
Speaker
Well, and to them, mean, to them, that that music was everything. They were the generation after World War II where jazz to them was the music of revolution.
00:17:05
Speaker
You know, they were like, that was the music of freedom. That music was so important to them. i mean, it it was, it was just holy. It was sacred.
00:17:16
Speaker
And ah they wouldn't just want to play around, you know, with some kiddo not taking it seriously but as i said once they realized that i love the music they accepted that situation and then it became more um okay let's teach and then Let's make him suffer. Right. Right. right yeah So that I guess was because from there, to be honest, it's never been like, I never, there was never the point where it said like, okay, I'm going to be a tap dancer. It just kind of happened because then from there, that was the introduction. I mean, all that happened is that I left school at one point and followed that path like a hundred percent.
00:17:57
Speaker
um But this was like the teaching and the gigging. i was even at that age, kind of theoretically able to take care of myself because there was some income, of course, not a lot. but So I guess it slowly just happened.
00:18:13
Speaker
yeah I can't remember a moment where i said, I'm going to be a professional tap dancer now. This is going to be my job. It just happened by coincidence. so Yeah. yeah I mean, if you're if you're already professionally like teaching and gigging at 14, that's really cool.
00:18:31
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was. Looking back, it was very special too. It felt so normal to me. But then looking back, I was very... also because the music came first. I mean, once I started traveling by the age of 16, 17, and I went to the first festival, um to the first festivals, but like Tap City in New York, for instance, where saw like a huge variety of tap dancers, because for a long time, I also thought I'm the only one in my age yeah doing that dance because there was no internet and like in Germany it's not like there's like a 114 year old but pursuing the the path of tap dance so it was like that was incredible to and but also like as a dance form and choreography and then there was the world of competition and it was oh my god there's so much stuff happening but looking back I'm really happy that my like my my introduction into the art form was so connected to the music and less to
00:19:34
Speaker
I'm not saying Les to the dance, but I guess what you guys, you guys understand what I mean. Like Les, uh, I could have been like a competition dancer then later, this discovers that music is actually connected to the dance and So, yeah. So looking back, I'm just happy that everything happened as it happened.
00:19:50
Speaker
um Yeah. Yeah. i feel like in some ways you had a very, almost more of like a folkloric approach to the dance in that like you were immersed in it at a young age, like welcomed into it as, as a student, as a child, like, this is just what we do. We play together. We dance together. Like we, you know, like that, that almost feels more like,
00:20:16
Speaker
of a folkloric kind of tradition, then like we go to the studio and we stand at the bar, we stand in the center and then we go across the floor, you know, it's, um it's very interesting and and different approach, yeah which of course affects how you approach the dance and grow and learn. And yeah. Absolutely. Cause there was just, um there was no other way. i mean, that, that was just, that's what was there, you know? yeah And ah of course, no,
00:20:44
Speaker
and becoming aware of the community and like, wow, my God. So that that's the tap family everybody's talking about. I mean, that's such a nice feeling, but at that point I wasn't just, I was, I wasn't aware of it at all.
00:20:59
Speaker
Cause I mean, now, uh, Now you just opened the gram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, whatever, and you see like, okay, what's going on with the tap dancers in Korea? And you don't have to know someone who may be traveling. I mean, because it's all there, right? Right. Yeah.
00:21:18
Speaker
I'm... Interested in, um I guess, since you've been like gigging professionally as ah as a percussionist, as a tap dancer in a in a live music setting for so long, it probably just comes naturally to you at this point. But um from a lot of tap students that I've talked to, this is still like ah a mind blowing concept. Yeah. So as as an educator, how do you kind of present this idea that you can be a percussionist, you can be band leader?
00:21:59
Speaker
you know Well, the the interesting thing, I think there's a variety of things. First of all, there is no, if people have never improvised before in their lives, they can be, i mean, had people who've been in the shoes for like 40 years.
00:22:11
Speaker
they have ah They own dance studios. They teach 100 students every year, but they never they never had that moment of, okay, and now I'm brave enough to jump into that cold water called improv. And but and then again, and then you sometimes you have students, who they first time with their tap shoes on, that's like their introduction to tap bands.
00:22:32
Speaker
And then there are moments where they're like all in the same room, but they're all facing the same not the the same wall of, okay, what am I going to do now? the The guy who's never danced before is like, I don't have anything.
00:22:46
Speaker
And the person who's been dancing for 40 years says, I don't have anything, you know? So they're, they're all like facing the same kind of, okay, how am I going to start? What am i going to do? And coming from that background, it's kind of what I'm always trying to do with them is like,
00:23:04
Speaker
travel back in time and and really start playing like a kid would do without judgment, without, without structure at first, without possibility of mistakes, just anything can happen. You don't have to, you don't have to be on time. You don't have to be clean. You don't just let's play, right?
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah. Put them some music and just let stuff happen. So if you take that pressure off their shoulders, that's in my experience, a good start at the beginning. And then you can slowly you know start getting into concepts. But no matter if they're very experienced dancers or like beginners, when they start improvising, i always feel like you have to ah kind of show them how much they can do with so little, like just using your toes, for instance.
00:23:53
Speaker
And cause they wouldn't think that's, that's enough. You know, the, the, the one who's never danced before is like, i don't know, can I actually, and the one who's super experienced, like he toes, I don't think that'll, that'll be enough for so.
00:24:08
Speaker
right But it's like the playing, the playfulness, the, um, as an introduction to, to improv, so to speak. Um, but If I have the possibility in the context that I organize myself, I always try to have live musicians in the room.
00:24:25
Speaker
so at least like not a whole band, but maybe a pianist. And then them realizing that he's picking up on what they do, because of course he's a very experienced musician and he might know where they go what kind of rhythmic idea they might. And they're like, oh my God, we like something happened. We were playing together.
00:24:47
Speaker
you know And I only use my toes and that's like a super good feeling because you're like, wow, that happened. Now imagine you're doing that for 32 bars and they go like 32 bars. What's that? And then we start talking about what's a form, what's like, you know, yeah and by most of the time, of course you can't, you can't guarantee the magic, but most of the time after like a 90 minute, maybe two hour session beginning improv,
00:25:15
Speaker
Um, they, they do so much more than they expected from themselves at the, at the beginning of of the lesson. And once they feel that they feel good and they're like, actually, i actually improvised today. And then next time you see them, you have to do it again.
00:25:30
Speaker
Cause they're like going back into that. Okay. I can't do anything. So it'll take a while, but I also think it kind of depends on their personal goal.
00:25:42
Speaker
And, um, If they really want to do it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like yeah if they're really like, okay, I want to improvise. That's something I really, that's, that's a wish coming deep from the bottom of my heart. I want to improvise. Then they probably would continue with the tools that we gave them within that workshop, for instance, and they would continue to work on, on the ideas they learned and then develop. And eventually when you see them for this, for the second time or whenever,
00:26:14
Speaker
You're like, oh, okay, cool. You really worked on that. So we can, let's let's see how it feels if it's not 32, but like 64. And, you know, like eventually at some point, maybe a whole a whole tune. And, you know, ah it's kind of hard because I have the feeling we've grown up in a society where the last thing you're used to doing is playing like a kid.
00:26:34
Speaker
You know, you're so also like schools and stuff. They tell you if you're like nine out of 10, it's not like, cool, you get nine out of 10. It's like, why isn't it 10 out of 10? And, So we're so used to like, uh, we kind of have to relearn how to be free of judgment and playful.
00:26:52
Speaker
And that's the the hardest work I feel. and And maybe you have had the same experience. Some people start crying because it's just, and I don't think it's because of the dance and the music it's because there's so much trauma yeah of them being caught in that idea of right and wrong. And it's just too much for them emotionally.
00:27:13
Speaker
And that makes me sad too, because I'm like, wow, I mean, this is really, this is where we're at as a society, basically, right? Right or wrong, good or bad. And then you're like, dude, chill. but But that's so easy to say, you know, right that's so easy to say. it's just It's just some dance and some music. But in that moment, the brain goes somewhere else. And I always feel, especially with them grownups, that's the hardest hardest thing to do.
00:27:42
Speaker
Because kids, I mean, to them, it's all a game. So, right but I'm not teaching that many kids. So most of the time I'm facing a big group of adults, grown up people.
00:27:53
Speaker
ah And then, yeah, and then that that crying that happens quite often. Yeah. can If you can share some trade secrets. is there Are there certain like games that you like to play? know, like what are your some of your favorite things to do with your students to help them break out of of that, if you're willing to share? Absolutely. and i'm um' i don't want to say I'm tricking them into something, but most of the time I'm tricking them into something because, well, first of all,
00:28:23
Speaker
the atmosphere to me personally is very important because the moment I feel they're relaxed because they feel there is no judgment and, and they really like, uh, and I keep, so I keep telling them during, during the lesson, like whatever it is. And if you don't do anything, that's perfect too, right? You can stay here and just, just feel the groove within your body without doing any sound for two hours. That's cool.
00:28:51
Speaker
Just feel it, you know, And some some do that, but then you can feel like they really start feeling it. So round three or whatever, they're like, okay, now I'm ready to share a sound.
00:29:02
Speaker
So that's the first that's the most important thing, I feel like. No judgment at all. You want to leave the studio, go outside for 10 minutes? Cool. You don't have to let me know. it's big Everything is possible. So the moment everything is possible and there is no judgment, they're like ready to ready to work, so to speak. Yeah.
00:29:21
Speaker
The musician is very important ah to me personally. Having a musician in the studio that is used to not only tap dancing, but also that kind of situation. Because he also knows how to support. um Like Roman Babik, for instance, a pianist that I've been working for so many years with, he he knows tap dancing.
00:29:42
Speaker
And he knows if there's, I mean, even it's just changing the chords to some something slightly more joyful, that sometimes helps to lighten the mood of the person who's dancing. And he's doing a little Walt Disney tickle tickle up there and they're like, oh, they have to laugh. Or, you know, he's he's quoting kind of whatever melody that everybody knows. And then we all have to laugh. And that's that's like that's helping too.
00:30:05
Speaker
um But what I said earlier is what I to do is, is like I'm choosing a tempo which makes them... and then I say, okay, now for the beginning it's just one bar each.
00:30:21
Speaker
And they're like, okay, that's good because one bar each is there. That's pretty. So, but one bar in to do, to do, chat that's it, right? So then they're like, oh, that's kind of a little short after round two.
00:30:34
Speaker
So like maybe maybe we should go for like two, don't you think guys? And they're like, yeah, like just one bar. I mean, I didn't even like put the foot down really. Right. So by round five, we're like eight bars and they feel comfortable with that. That's that's pretty good. It's just the choice of tempo and like, and like, I mean, now that's the real insight now, but like asking them as if it's coming from them, like you guys feel that too, right? That's really short. i Shouldn't we like try eight bars? And they're like, yeah, because I'm So by the time they, and then it's eight bars and you'd have that for maybe like five minutes, 10 minutes.
00:31:11
Speaker
And they're like, cool, let's change the tune. And maybe I pick it up a little bit, just slightly so that even eight bars feels a little. So by the end they might have like half a form, 16 bars. And they feel super comfortable with that. yeah If it's like a slow blues, 16 bars is like eternity.
00:31:30
Speaker
But the the tempo also kind of forces them to not too not to do too much. right So if I go like a boom, chack, beep, bop, boom, to beep, bop, bop, nobody goes sickity-packity-boop. They all like work on their toes. And as we said, like don't do too much, play around only with your toes.
00:31:49
Speaker
So that kind of is not the recipe, but I do it all the time. and Until now, it always worked because by the end of the session, they're doing a whole form just because I kind of tricked them into it.
00:32:02
Speaker
Interesting. yeah And that happens nine out of ten. And that's definitely not what they expected. So when they leave the session, they're like, dude, I actually, that was i improvised over a whole form, you know.
00:32:17
Speaker
So and if if if that's happening, that's a good thing, because then it's like, yeah you know, the candy and they're like, yum, I want to do that again. That's kind of good. And, you know, so you can't guarantee. And of course, some people are like, they don't care about anything.
00:32:35
Speaker
They just some people are very, you know, they have to open up. it's not so I mean, there's so many human beings and characters. so yeah But that kind of is one thing that that um that works pretty well.
00:32:49
Speaker
And as I said, with a musician that knows tap dance, and he kind of, because he knows tap dance so well, that he kind of can anticipate what the person might do. And then he joins it rhythmically on the piano and they're like, oh, wow, I played with him and that was not planned. That is so amazing because we played together and it just happened. So that's at the beginning. At the beginning. yeah Because, of course, you might have a completely different context and they're all like, OK, yeah, I want to improv. I want to work on my improv and learn about metric modulation. How can I do that with them? And and that's of course that, then these are people are like super advanced and, yeah but that's not the context that most of the time i would teach an improv class. So that's, that's more of the exotic, uh, thing that happens now and then that somebody, you know, wants to work on that stuff. And then it's more a one ah ah one on one, like ah
00:33:45
Speaker
Just the two of us kind of situation. Not like a whole group of people who were like, okay, how about polymeters? I mean, that's usually not happening.
00:34:18
Speaker
This is the Relative Rhythms podcast and you're listening to our conversation with Daniel Luca.
Support and Merchandise for the Podcast
00:34:23
Speaker
If you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review wherever you are listening. And if you'd like to support our work, you can join our Patreon where we catalog our full unedited episodes and share extra content, including unreleased music and videos. You can also check out our brand new store where you can get Relative Rhythms merch.
00:34:40
Speaker
Pick up a t-shirt and show off your nerdiness. Go to relativerhythms.com. Thanks for tuning in and now back to our conversation with Daniel.
Mentorship and Influence of Sarah Petronio
00:34:48
Speaker
I'd love to hear um a but little bit about your connection with Sarah Petronio and how you got connected with her and and mentored by her. And then also um through through Sarah, but it sounds like through your your first teacher as well, your connection to the history of tap dance and and your understanding of of now how you fit as ah as a German person who lives in in Paris or France,
00:35:14
Speaker
you know, how you fit into that history and and carry it on and share that the history then with, with the people that you perform for or a teach or coach or. Well, Sarah, to be honest, I mean, ah she's, she's really, she's not only my mentor. I mean, she's such a good, she's just one of the most important persons in my life in general. and She didn't only teach me everything I know about tap dance, but also life. And I mean, she's so important to me.
00:35:40
Speaker
I first met in New York at the Tap City thing. But we really connected once I moved back to Germany at the end of 2010 to Düsseldorf is like a three, three and a half hour train ride away from Paris.
00:35:57
Speaker
So, and there was a little announcement of the theater where I was artist in residence back then. And and so Sarah was like, you you know, email you know that um paris is very close huh and uh don't you want to come to paris and um and join me for a session and so she was putting together um i wasn't aware of anything what her plan was but i think it was for a concert however it was like of course yeah i would love to do that and so eventually to make a long story so this is how i started like first time i went to paris um and i think it was for a jazz in motion
00:36:35
Speaker
concert she called me but she was looking for a dancer and i don't know it's just sometimes stuff happened by then i was my early 20s and and and i think i was absolutely ready for a mentor she was absolutely ready to be uh to be a mentor and it just it was just fate kind of and she took me under her wing and from there i mean i went to paris as as often as i could uh, to just dance with her. Uh, and she has a house, uh, the, the border of Paris and the studio is in her house. So this is her basement studio where like, uh, where we had the basement sessions and we just working on, I mean, sometimes tip just even for a week dancing without any like goal, not preparing a show or just cause she was sharing her,
00:37:26
Speaker
her knowledge in the dance, but of course also in in the history because her guru, as she would say, was Jimmy s Slide. So, I mean, all the tap history that I thought I was aware of, I kind of relearned through Sarah because she was, i mean, she was there with ah with with all of them, right? and then I mean, literally with all of them. So you would like, yeah, so i was with the how was it with the Nicholas Brothers? And then boom, and you would She would just share, you know, and her husband, Peter Petronio, is also like one of the most important tap dance photographers. So you have like, the the photos are everywhere. And you're like, yeah, I remember that time where...
00:38:12
Speaker
Black and Blue was in Paris and they were all here and you know Black and Blue started and they like, who was that? Oh yeah, that's Buster Brown playing cards backstage. And then there there was all the stories. you know I mean, really, um that was a whole different um approach to learning tap history.
00:38:31
Speaker
And the dance, I mean, to be honest, I would say like I had many, many teachers before Sarah, but she really was, she became my mentor. And we recently had, I think it was even here at the Paris TAP Festival. I said what I just said.
00:38:47
Speaker
i had many teachers, but she became my mentor. And somebody asked, like, what's the difference between the teacher and the mentor? And to me, I think ah the best way to put it is like the the teachers I had before I met Sarah, they were like painters. And I was, you know, they were adding they were adding colors to the picture.
00:39:07
Speaker
And Sarah is more of a sculptor. So to her, it's like, what do I have to take away to to see what's what's the core, what's underneath all these colors?
00:39:18
Speaker
So to her, it's more like finding the person, not hiding, but but but who's that Daniel, for instance, right? So what do i have to take away to really get to know that that artist that's in there somewhere, which is a super um different approach. And ah of course, also something that's emotionally completely different. and But she has her way of teaching without teaching you, actually.
00:39:46
Speaker
right so and the the whole You can feel that she's coming from that lineage of Jimmy Slyte who wouldn't teach her steps, but he he would like teach her how to be her and and and i actually just made her dance and express herself without like teaching his steps to her. You see what I mean?
00:40:08
Speaker
So that's the kind of approach Sarah uses when when she's teaching. so So it was less about like teaching me steps or teaching me technique. It was more about like teaching making me become aware of who I am and expressing myself through the dance.
00:40:27
Speaker
That's what she did. If you've ever seen Sarah Petronio dance, I mean, Gosh, she's just like jazz in motion, right? She is like, you can really see the music flowing through her body and like, it just exits her feet like, and it's pure, pure music.
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, Jimmy Sly called her the first lady of swing and I absolutely agree. kiss i Dude. food And yeah. So um being taught by her, she also had her,
00:40:58
Speaker
I mean, specialties in teaching and making a point. And umm yeah I'm thinking about giving you one example, which might just be a good example to tell you how Sarah teaches and what that does with you Because we were doing um a show called Thelonious, which was her personal tribute to the music of Thelonious Mok, which we then presented actually at Tap City in New York. The idea of the show was people meeting in a Parisian apartment ah listening to the radio, listening to a special program about the Lonious Monk, and then spontaneously getting into the dance. That's kind of the storyline.
00:41:39
Speaker
And I think we were like about eight dancers, Bakari, Wilder was there, Michaela Lerman, um Carson Murphy, um a bunch of beautiful dancers. and But we were pre-preparing the whole thing in Paris because in New York, we only had...
00:41:59
Speaker
three or four days to actually rehearse with everyone. And here in Paris, we started like recording the group choreographies. Lila was in the studio with me. We did um like the the big finale or whatever choreography was there to record it and send it to the people to prepare it so that we can then rehearse it during Tap City to prepare the show.
00:42:21
Speaker
and There was one moment in the show to Carmen McRae's I Mean You. ah Well, in her version, it's called You Know Who. so Sarah wanted to me to dance a solo within that song.
00:42:36
Speaker
I was like, pleasure, cool. I would love to do that. We're just the two of us in the basement, and she's playing the music. and She's like, okay, in that moment, I want you to take the solo.
00:42:47
Speaker
It's like, yeah, okay, perfect. She said, you want to do it? Yeah, yeah, okay. So I dance a little, improvise a little solo. All good. We decided that's going to happen. So the next day, we're rehearsing all kinds of stuff for Thelonious again. And towards the end of our session, she's like, okay, Daniel, let's do, um let's do you know who.
00:43:06
Speaker
I mean, you. Right? Let's do the thing you do, your little solo. right. So I did it. I don't know why, but it kind of felt she's she's not too happy with what I was doing. i wasn't 100% sure, but okay.
00:43:19
Speaker
So we left it for a bit and we came back to that solo over and over again. And every time we did it, ah felt like she's not super happy with it. So at one point I'm like, Sarah, is there anything I should do differently? do you want me to like decide on what to do? Always improvise, is there? And she's like, no, no, no. just just Just remember, I mean you.
00:43:42
Speaker
was like, okay, just remember, I'm in you. When the master says, just remember, I'm in you, just take that and whatever that might mean, think about it. And okay, so I'm in you.
00:43:55
Speaker
That thing went on for months. we have We started in like rehearsing in January and the show was in June, July. And every time, over and over again, we came to that point. I felt like she she was so unhappy and i almost wanted to say, like, tell me what to do.
00:44:16
Speaker
Like, I mean you, what is that supposed to mean? But every time I asked her, she went like, I mean you, right? So, end of the story is we went to New York.
00:44:28
Speaker
We started rehearsing with all the others. Beautiful show. So much fun. That moment comes where where I have to dance that solo. And I i really get i get nervous. I get tense. I'm like, I don't want to do that. Because she can be like, I meet you. And I don't know what she wants. Right?
00:44:46
Speaker
So we're doing that. She's not even looking at me. i'm like, I don't know what else to do. So i'm I'm almost at the point where I want to say, like, Sarah, I don't want to dance that solo. Please Ask somebody else to do or whatever. I don't want to do it.
00:45:01
Speaker
So and I'm really like getting frustrated and unhappy with that moment in the show. And um however, festival starts on the Monday and they always start on the Monday with copacetic boat ride, which is just the most amazing thing. Yeah, the boat ride. Yeah. Because you're jamming on a boat into the sunset of Manhattan.
00:45:17
Speaker
And it's like, how beautiful is that? I couldn't be happy at all. I was so in that, I don't know what to do with the solo. We're on the boat. everybody's jamming. I'm not even like in the mood for jamming at all.
00:45:31
Speaker
Lila Petronio comes to me and says, damn, I signed you up. So it's like two tunes more and then we all go and jam and I don't want to dance. And she's like, yeah, but now put down your name so you have to do it. I was like, all right. So we go there and there is three bucket drummers who actually were part of another show of a hip-hop company coming from Paris, who coincidentally did a performance Central Park at the same time. And Lila knew them, and she invited them to to be on the boat and whatever. So in addition to the band, they had those bucket drummers.
00:46:08
Speaker
And they laid down like a super fast, funky groove. And he hit that groove, and I'm like, you know what? Fuck it. i'm i'm not gonna take I'm not going to think about that show now. I'm just going to put on my shoes and I'm just going to dance.
00:46:26
Speaker
And i'm just going to I'm just going to enjoy whatever. So went out there and i I don't know what happened, but I really like let go with that super fast punk group.
00:46:38
Speaker
and i And I look up and there's that lantern in the middle of that boat. And Sarah is standing there and she's looking at me and she's
00:46:49
Speaker
no And this is where it clicked. I was like, dude, it all made sense. It was like, all she wanted is just like to be yourself. Don't pressure. to I mean, take off that pressure. Don't try to be something else. Just be yourself, be you.
00:47:06
Speaker
Maybe she could have told me just, yes Like six months earlier. You know what? Just be yourself. But that's the way she would teach you. And that's the way she would have been taught by by someone like Jimmy Slide. Right. To really learn your lesson, and she she wouldn't just tell you. she She would always be like giving you secret messages that you would have to figure out in a way, you know, or ask you a question, which like really makes you think or rethink
00:47:40
Speaker
And that was just one of many examples. But I think that's that's a good one to kind of understand how she would teach you. you know It was never about like, maybe you should do more slides.
00:47:51
Speaker
Maybe you should put in some fancy wings or whatever. No, it was about like, be yourself. I'm so glad that happened before the premiere. Because then I could, I mean, I swear to God, I could so enjoy the show after. because That was really okay lesson learned.
00:48:09
Speaker
There's a variety of stories like that. and I'm very grateful to not only have met her, but that she was like taking me under her wing. and ah And of course, I learned so much about jazz. She played with Barry Harris and you know people like... and and then There's so nice so many jazz icons. She was on tour with Jimmy Slide. When it comes to tap dance, of course, you can learn anything about tap dance with her.
00:48:37
Speaker
But then on a personal level, that's, that's, I mean, a golden add on, so to speak, you know, like, yeah and I'm very, very grateful to have her in my life and through her also to have the connection to Lila, who became like a big sister to me. I mean, she is a big sister to me and, uh,
00:48:57
Speaker
To work with her is, of course, that's another nice thing that happened along the way. And so now I'm here in Paris and feel very connected to that to that lineage.
Creative Process Behind 'Three and a Floor'
00:49:10
Speaker
i want to I want to talk about your album quick. So you released your album in 2017. You recorded it in 2017. And now you just re-released it um on ah streaming platforms. So everyone can rediscover it.
00:49:27
Speaker
I was listening through some of the tracks. And it' you you you definitely have like some straight-ahead jazz standards. But there's also a lot of like different world music stuff going on.
00:49:38
Speaker
When you were putting together the album and like composing it and figuring out what songs to do, what was the decision process like and and how much were you involved in the composition process?
00:49:50
Speaker
So I think first of all, that sound that you described, that's very... um but The guy, the pianist I recorded the album with is called Roman Babik and that's very... That's his sound. I mean, he's very... Okay.
00:50:05
Speaker
Sometimes they would call it Balkan-ish, Eastern European. And that's his sound not because he grew up in that region, that's just his sound. Who grew up in that region is Dmitri Markitantov, who's also featured on the album on saxophone and clarinet.
00:50:23
Speaker
um So getting him into that project was very it was kind of very clear early in the process that we want him in there as an extra sound quality to kind of um support the musical feel we want to express in the in the original tunes that we com composed which are all kind of very different anyhow i mean one it's hard to describe the musical style of the of the album for me at least but the overall sound quality outside of the standards
00:50:55
Speaker
that's very Roman. So when we compose the music, like the choice of chords and i mean, everything that's happening harmonically, that's Roman, which no matter what he does always is exactly what I would love to hear. i mean, he knows what I want rhythmically and then it just,
00:51:17
Speaker
But he's also one of the, we could show up to a gig and just don't rehearse it all and play like two hours straight without preparing anything. So that kind of happened organically. But when it comes to ah what you would feel as like Eastern European influence in the choice of um like chords and that's Roman and his choice. And also like he would tell Dima, Dimitri on saxophone, okay, now you play the second voice here. And so that's, that's between the two. I had no... um and Well, maybe sometimes, but it's not really that I... and Okay, maybe you should play that chord because that's him.
00:51:56
Speaker
So did did Homan bring the the scores, the the compositions to you, and then you just added the the percussion? No, no, no. That happened like on this on the spot. Like, for instance, the um gotget three and the floor, the title track, it starts with that muted string...
00:52:16
Speaker
On the piano. data tik tik tic tik tick We were just playing around like foolish little kiddos at a jam, a tap jam at the sound check. And he he was doing that. I was like, keep that going for a second. And then he was just like, keeping that.
00:52:33
Speaker
And then he would lay down some chords, which actually, and then I put that rumba clave groove
00:52:41
Speaker
all underneath, and that basically became the tune. We had to trick a little bit because it keeps going, so we had to loop electronically, loop that muted string, because then he's using... Oh, gotcha, yeah. When we play live, he can't keep it going because he needs both hands to mute and to play the strings of right um but yeah so that just happens at a jam and then we we continue to like develop that idea but everything else it was us in the room and actually making decisions because we have creating so much music together for like bigger project for dancers for like shows own projects for other dancers i just
00:53:26
Speaker
did the choreography, but he was composing the music that we were like, okay, what of all the stuff that we ever played together could we put on the album? None of it existed. kind We kind of went new ways, but that was like the starting point. And sometimes he would just play a little something. I would join him. We would just jam until we found something. that's nice. Maybe we should keep that idea.
00:53:50
Speaker
And was that the same then when Dimitri added in? or Or did you you and Roma, did you play and then find a way to bring Dimitri in?
00:54:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Basically, yes. Basically, yes. i mean, these guys, they've been living together as students. this based They jazz at the same academy. So it was it's not like bringing in a stranger. It was like we we already knew how Dima would sound in that context. Once we brought him in and he started playing, i was like, yeah, exactly. that's We knew it was going to sound like that. yeah right But the choice of instrument was not clear. So like, for instance, three on the floor, he's playing the clarinet, which makes which gives it a completely different atmosphere and so much, as he would say, um
00:54:43
Speaker
He had seen so much, he had suffered so much in his life, which you can like feel when he's playing the clarinet. Do you have any plans for a second album? Interesting question. Cause I, um, well, not a second, well, have a new duo project with a piano player. Uh, she's based in Paris. She's from Russia originally, but she also lives in Paris. And, um,
00:55:12
Speaker
Cause it's interesting that you ask that question because literally last week we figured out ah for a promotional clip of that new project, uh, where to do it. And then we were like, uh, actually we could,
00:55:23
Speaker
like not only record the video but like put the single of the tune out there because it's going to be our original music so that's going to happen in uh end of january early february we have them we have that session and who knows if by then there is more music uh so if that's going to be a whole album maybe who knows but definitely we're putting out a that single of of the track that we're also recording as a video as a promo promo for them for that new project.
Upcoming Music Projects
00:55:54
Speaker
Yeah, we'll take a second. Yeah, we're very excited too. You heard it here first. And that's definitely going to be a a duo thing. so um So the approach is going to be completely different again.
00:56:07
Speaker
So yeah, but I'm excited about that. So yes, the answer is yes. and Great. Yeah, you heard it here first, folks. Yeah. yeah na Well, thank you, Daniel, so much for coming on and sharing and telling us a little bit about your history and your journey. And we're we're just pumped to um watch what's what's coming from you. Yeah, anytime. Thank you so much. Super fun to like ah open up to you guys and and and share. And thank you for the invitation again.
Final Thoughts and Ways to Support
00:56:55
Speaker
This is the Relative Rhythms podcast, and you've been listening to our conversation with Daniel Luca. You can find Daniel online at www.danielluca.com or on the socials at danielluca underscore.
00:57:09
Speaker
You can also listen to his music on all the streaming platforms. If you liked our conversation today, please follow and leave a rating or review wherever you are listening. If you'd like to support our work, you can join us at patreon.com slash relative rhythms, where you can gain access to all of our uncut episodes and extra content.
00:57:25
Speaker
Our theme song is For the Love of It by the Adam Price Group. Featuring Emily Jane Acree on foot percussion. Our mid-roll music was cabrio, and our outro music is Three and a Floor, both from Daniel Luca's album of the same name.
00:57:39
Speaker
Don't forget to follow us on all the socials at Relative Rhythms and feel free to send us a message. Check out our merch on our website, relativerhythms.com. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next episode.