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South Indian Archaeology feat. Shobhna Iyer - Ep 15
45 Plays4 years ago
In this week's episode, we sit down with Stanford Ph.D. candidate, Shobhna Iyer where she discusses how she became impassioned with archaeology in South India, her area of interest, and current experiences in her Ph.D. program.
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Contact
- Show
- Twitter: @idigitpodcast
- Email: [email protected]
- Alyssa
- Instagram: aal.archaeology
- Twitter: Lyssakemi
- Michaela
- Instagram: mm_digitalized
- Twitter: m_mauriello
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Transcript
Introduction to iDicket Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You're listening to the iDicket Podcast, a podcast where we talk about the student perspective of navigating the world of archaeology and anthropology.
Meet Shobna: Journey to Stanford
00:00:17
Speaker
I'm your host, Michaela. And I'm your host, Alyssa.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello. Today we have a very special guest with us. Her name is Shobna. Shobna, why don't you give us an introduction? Hi, thank you guys for inviting me. First time caller, long time listener.
00:00:41
Speaker
My name is Shokna. I am a PhD student at Stanford University, which is how Alyssa and I know each other. I started my program last year when life was normal. So I actually went to class and walked around, ate Panda Express between classes.
Educational Path and PhD Decision
00:01:02
Speaker
I can't relate the dream. Exactly. I didn't know I would miss it until it was gone. Oh, man.
00:01:11
Speaker
Um, I moved here last, last September from India where I had just completed. Well.
00:01:20
Speaker
eight months ago had completed what is an MPhil. So I did my bachelor's a very, very long time ago in 2010. And then I did my master's and then I took a break because I realized I need to make money. And then I went back and I did an MPhil, which was great because it was, it got me into the, in
Life in the US: Culture Shock and Adjustment
00:01:39
Speaker
the field. It got me doing my own research, which, you know, a lot of people don't get the chance to do before they start their PhD program. So I'm glad I did it.
00:01:47
Speaker
And then I moved here. And now I'm here having culture shock every day while the world falls apart. Oh God. Shavna had quite the year last year. I got to hear a little bit about it. But she's been my saving grace moving here because I've yet to meet pretty much anyone in the department aside from show and then one other person.
00:02:13
Speaker
She's been a good old. Thank you so much. I'm glad. Oh, I love that. Thank you. Okay, so let's see. What is your research topic for your sushi currently as it is now? As we all know, it changes very easily.
Research Focus: Medieval South India
00:02:32
Speaker
Great. Next question.
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah, so I work in medieval South India, which is, it's like the 12th to 16th century. Funnily enough, it's not that well researched, both in terms of the particular region I work on and the time period.
00:02:53
Speaker
medieval period is very much considered the domain of historians in India. And so, I mean, in the last 10 years is really when medieval archaeology has really blossomed. And I guess I'm one of those people who's like, let's do it. My site is called Warangal. It's hard to spell, but W-A-R-A-N-G-A-L.
00:03:15
Speaker
It was a 12th century fort capital city of this regional kingdom that was very powerful, but no one's ever heard of as it happens. And I was just really fascinated by the fact that it's this huge ass fort city that they spent like decades building. And then 200 years later, they were gone. The empire fell and I was like, okay, but what happened to the site, right? It's always sort of the afterlives of the site that I'm really interested in.
00:03:45
Speaker
And so when I did my MPhil, I was sort of, my MPhil was sort of like more, I was asking more of a,
00:03:54
Speaker
methodological question is like, how does one do an archeology of the medieval period in India? And I was bringing in some of the work on historical archeology as it exists in North America and so on and so forth. But as I was doing it, I realized how amazing that site is, how much potential it has. And I was like, oh crap, there's a PhD project here.
Challenges in Archaeological Funding
00:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, and so I decided to apply because the other thing is that India is not great when it comes to funding for anything that's not the hard sciences.
00:04:24
Speaker
And so, you know, like the, even the field work that I did for my MPhil I did it by myself, I paid for myself and so I knew that if I wanted to do this site justice, I was going to need funding. And yes, that's how I decided to apply here and our, Alyssa and I have the same advisor. He also works in South India.
00:04:44
Speaker
And I had had the chance to work with him before applying. And he heard about my project and we talked about it. He said he was really interested in it. And I was like, okay, cool. Do you think your university might fund me? And he's like, well. Is that an in-wink-wink? No, he was like, apply, we'll see, which was fair. So I worked my butt off. I applied. I was very fortunate to get in.
00:05:11
Speaker
And now I'm here, far, far away from my side. You're not able to visit it right now at all, huh? Yeah. Yeah. I got nothing done this summer. Yeah. Luckily, the show is still in her coursework years because you do two years of coursework. So it's especially not so great for like the third, fourth, fifth year students who are supposed to like only be doing research right now.
00:05:37
Speaker
who were supposed to be in the field right now and Stanford is like, our university is literally like, we're not paying you to go out of America. Yeah. So that's really awful. Yeah.
Formulating Research Questions
00:05:48
Speaker
Were you planning on going to the site this last summer, even though you're still doing your coursework?
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah. And I wasn't even going to do any like real work, but I just, I really love my site and I love being there and I have connections there. And I recognize I'm very lucky, right? They're like, a lot of people spend their first and second summers just figuring out their PhD project, like where they want to work. Like they have like big questions they want answered. Mine is almost sort of like the opposite. I have a site. I have a very firm understanding of, well, not a very firm, that's, you know,
00:06:21
Speaker
But I have some understanding of the history of the region, the history that subsumes the archaeology of the region. I'm trying to figure out what is a research question that's interesting, applicable, and doable in my PhD project.
00:06:39
Speaker
I think you and I are the same with that because my site and everything is set already. I just need to figure out what my questions are. And I'm also doing medieval Cambodia, which had a lot of influence from medieval India.
00:06:59
Speaker
Hopefully we can figure out something to collab with. That'd be cool. Yeah. And I think that's how our advice, that's how you and I first spoke is our advisor put us in touch with each other when you were, you first were accepted. And he, I mean, he, he's, he was just like, can you, can you just tell her about the department? Like, get her to get her to get her here. And I was like, Oh, hell yes. So how did you get interested in medieval India?
Path to Archaeology: From Volunteer to Researcher
00:07:26
Speaker
I've had a really long ass journey to archaeology. I started I started doing fieldwork as a volunteer student in my first summer after my like
00:07:38
Speaker
what you guys call freshman year, like in 2007. So in 2007, I was in this really like overachieving bunch of like, I went to a college with a bunch of overachieving people. And they were all like, I'm doing this internship this summer, I'm doing that this summer. And I was just like, oh, shit, I'm not doing anything this summer.
00:07:59
Speaker
And so I went to a professor of mine who was teaching us ancient history and I was like, because my undergrad was in history, and I was just like, hey, do you know about like a summer research project or something? And he's like, yeah, sure. I have a friend in the US who's going to be doing her PhD fieldwork and she needs people. She needs volunteers to like help her walk transects. And I was like, I have no idea what that is, but I'll do it.
00:08:24
Speaker
So that's pretty much how it happened. And so, yeah, again, I was very lucky. I was in the field every summer and winter break my entire undergrad, which was only three years because our undergrad is only three years. And because of that, I got to meet my Emmy and MPhil advisor who worked at another university in Delhi
00:08:46
Speaker
Then I moved there for my MA and continued to be in the field. And yeah, I spent a long time trying to figure out what my research interests are. Here's what I knew. I knew I loved being in the field.
00:09:01
Speaker
And I knew I loved every part of it, like the boring stuff, like washing ceramics. I was like, sit me down with 20 bags. Oh my God, it's the best. And then like filling out a form or making measurements or like mapping something with your GPS. I was like, teach me everything. I love all of it.
00:09:27
Speaker
But even in my master's when my advisor was like, so what are your research interests? I'm like, archaeology question. Isn't it enough that I want to be in the field and work like insane hours and like in like, what is 115 degrees Fahrenheit? Like, isn't that enough? And she's like, sure, but you can't write a PhD application with that show. She was right.
00:09:56
Speaker
But a lot of my fieldwork had been in South India, and my family's from South India, even though I didn't grow up there. And I mean, the archaeology of India is really...
00:10:07
Speaker
interesting and complicated. I would say that just like perhaps Egypt, there's a lot of focus on one part of our history, which is the early, really early periods, especially prehistory, especially the Indus Valley civilization, because that's where all the big sites come from.
History vs. Archaeology in India
00:10:27
Speaker
So there is also that, you know, element, but there is still enough institutions and enough archaeologists that there's a lot of robust work happening, both inside India and by academics from outside of India. And so, like, yeah, it took me a while to figure out what I was interested in. And I think my training in history led me to the realization that whatever I wanted to do, I wanted to work with
00:10:55
Speaker
history as a discipline in conjunction with archaeology. I appreciate that in India, history and archaeology are considered part of the same bundle as it were. It's not often treated that way. They're not often treated as being equal. Archaeology is often treated as the material evidence to prove history. I wish it was more equal, but
00:11:20
Speaker
Nevertheless, I think there's, you know, I think there's like a lot of value to that. And like, I had never heard the words historical archaeology before, like two years ago, right? I didn't know that there was this really robust subdiscipline within archaeology. That's, that's discussing exactly this. Like, how do you work with texts when you're also an archaeologist? Because being an archaeologist is like, you have to learn a lot of skills, right? And you guys have talked about that, like the many, many skills you have to go out and learn.
00:11:48
Speaker
But I was like, no, but I love history as well. So how do I find a way to be more holistic as a researcher, I suppose. And so this is what I'm contending with even now. And this is sort of both the tension and the pleasure of now being in anthropology, because it's like a third discipline almost. And I'm like, wait, what am I doing here?
00:12:14
Speaker
How do I explain how do I explain to my cultural social like cohort mates who like, you know, work on
00:12:22
Speaker
war or violence and like how how do I tell talk to them about like you know these cool like porcelain this like you know 14th century celadon ware that I found at my site you know like what is the connections but I think I really enjoy finding that connection I enjoy the interdisciplinarity and so I realized that like working in the medieval and early modern gives me the space to
00:12:46
Speaker
be interdisciplinary in a way that I think I'll enjoy for the rest of my career if I continue to have a career here. Were you taking any anthropology courses like in your undergrad or master's, Enville? No, not at all. No. Is your PhD the first intro to theory?
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's my first intro to anthropological theory for sure. In India, anthropology is not really much of a thing. We almost conflate anthropology and sociology, and there's a handful of departments in the entire country, I would argue, that teach, quote-unquote, anthropology.
00:13:23
Speaker
And I've always been very confused by that. Coming here was my first time actually reading actual anthropological theory and I am blown away but also completely overwhelmed. It's a lot to take in. It's a lot to take in.
Archaeological Theory and Its Impact
00:13:41
Speaker
I think that's a lot of people's biggest fear going into a grad school program in the US is that they've never seen theory before. And so that's an overwhelming thing going into the program. And I was definitely super overwhelmed coming in, even though I took a couple of theory courses in undergrad. I was just like, I don't remember anything. I know Binford is a person.
00:14:04
Speaker
I'm taking classes with Hodder, like that's crazy. And so, yeah, I was just like, we're starting from square one. Yeah, but did either of you ever take like, anthropological theory? Like, you know, who am I, like, who am I thinking of? Like, Evan Spritchard, like, I'm not even sure of the names anymore. But like, the basic, like, you know, the canon of anthropology, like, did you guys ever take a class on that in your undergrad?
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, during my undergrad, we had like prerequisites for anthropology where we would have to take one course for all like the four subsections of it. And anthropological theory, we had to take several classes about it. And so that's when we just get bombarded with names and what they do, how it's contributed to anthropology. And I had like the best professor for that because he doesn't believe in exams. So he would just like just write like a
00:14:59
Speaker
five page paper about this day or this concept, here's the question. And then that was about it. So it was like really chill theory class and I learned a lot and I still have notes from it. So I just go back to the notes whenever I'm just like, who's this dude? Like I remember the theory, I just don't remember who it is. I think in my, I had like one theory course and in that one it was the same thing or it was just like name, name, name, name, he did this and he did this and blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:15:27
Speaker
But I've noticed that now with Ian teaching, it's so much more clear who's doing what because we study the people based on the topic they're addressing rather than the timeline of everything that's happening. So I think that's helped a lot in organizing who did what because there's a lot of people who did things in archaeological theory.
00:15:54
Speaker
It's also really interesting when you're able to connect it again to like, I feel like archaeology is one of those disciplines. It's always dipping in and out of other disciplines.
00:16:03
Speaker
So like we take a little bit from like we take a little bit from sociology We take a little bit from you know cultural anthropology. We take a little bit from ecology Ecology and we take so much from geography Right, and I feel like I really appreciate that and I again like the theory course I took last year that you're taking now like really helped me clarify these connections that I bet then made these texts more
00:16:30
Speaker
I don't know, both useful and clear. applicable to things you're doing too. Yeah. Or a way to like, at least think about them now. This is my own research earlier, I was just like, okay, again, like you guys were saying, I need to know these names. And that's that, right? But now I'm like, Oh, no, this is a, this is a, this is a, like,
00:16:50
Speaker
not a tradition, a trajectory. This is a trajectory that discipline has taken. And presumably now that we are part of it, we determine where it goes, not that we're gonna be, not that any, like, you know, most of us are not gonna be theorists, we're gonna be field practitioners. But nevertheless, what we work on and the kinds of theories we like use will influence how work is done in the next 20, 30 years, which is wild to think about, but it's true. And it's nice, like that clarity has really been
00:17:21
Speaker
like it's been really nice. That last part just made me like warm and fuzzy and also very anxious at the same time. Well yeah graduate school in a nutshell. Have you been able to apply any of the theory to your research and have you been noticing a different method of thinking when you're looking not looking but like
00:17:43
Speaker
you're looking at your research in the area. Absolutely. Again, I think it's the difference between taking a course in your undergrad or even, in my case, my master's, which is when I took my first archaeology course. My undergrad, I took not a single archaeology course. It was all history.
Theoretical Insights: Changing Research Approaches
00:18:00
Speaker
It was only in my master's that I took an intro to theory and an intro to method. And again, one professor had to cover everything.
00:18:06
Speaker
But yeah, it's only now where I'm reading and I have the space to actually think about it vis-a-vis my research. And that's what's great about having an advisor, right? Where you can just sit with them sometimes and be like, hey, so I was thinking.
00:18:22
Speaker
Because I presented a paper at the start of this year before everything went to hell at a conference at UCLA. And it was fantastic. And it was very much like it wasn't even really based on my fieldwork, per se, as much as it was based on my observations during fieldwork, which is a very vague way to say that. But that's exactly what it was. And I would have never written that paper. I would have never proposed that paper for that conference if it hadn't. I don't know. I feel like something's shifted within me.
00:18:52
Speaker
since I've come to graduate school, I'm thinking about my material so differently. And so, yeah, I think that's going to happen with you too, Alyssa. You know your site, you think you know the address, and this is what everyone has told me from years above, like, oh, the proposal you write to get into your PhD program, it's going to look like quaint by the time you actually write your current proposal. And I'm like, I hope so.
00:19:18
Speaker
Honestly, my proposal to get into grad school was two sentences about my site. It was mostly about, oh, I want to work with Andrew and do these things and collab.
00:19:31
Speaker
I pulled from that proposal to try to write the NSF grant, and I was like, there's nothing in here. I need to make up a proposal for my site. It's really hard to come up with a proposal when you don't, especially for something like NSF or even fieldwork grants that I'm imagining writing now.
00:19:49
Speaker
I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to find. And that's always the trick with archaeology, right? We can't tell you what we're going to do because we don't know what's going to happen. Day one of the project, something could happen that could throw all my plans out. And I feel like that's kind of the fun of archaeology. And NSF or other science-focused grants just have no room for that.
00:20:16
Speaker
have, you know, yeah, don't allow for that spontaneity, at least not in the proposal process. I guess in actuality, yeah, once you get the, once you get the grant, you can do whatever you want. But yeah, like, I love that about archaeology. Like, literally, you step on the field being like, I'm going to do this, this, this, and then your site's like, nope.
00:20:35
Speaker
Yeah. Everything just changes so much. And especially with like having to approach it with like a hypothesis and all that stuff, it's just like, this is what I'm thinking. It might change in five minutes, but please accept this as I present this to you. Thank you and good night. It's almost like a votive offering. I laid this at your feet. Please, archaeology gods.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah. And we will be right back after this break. For this segment, I would like to hear about your real talk for a PhD program, what you like about it, what you don't like about it, some of the hardships you've gone through, any advice you have for other people, just like lay it all out there fully transparent. How are you feeling?
Mental Health in Graduate Studies
00:21:32
Speaker
I've heard I heard you guys talk about your mental health in a former episode and I thought that was really great because I think it's really important to talk about mental health in graduate school. I remember my sister used when my sister was in graduate school many many years ago she used to say like
00:21:47
Speaker
Oh, it's awful. It's terrible for your mental health. And I was like, how bad can it be? It's just cool. Then you realize it's awful and depressing and lonely. And it doesn't help if you're not from this country and you move here. But I think the thing for me was I'm, you know, because I told you guys, like, I did a master's. I did an MPhil. I took a break. I worked. I'm much older than I would have been if I had applied right out of my master's. And
00:22:17
Speaker
I sort of assumed that that prepared me better.
00:22:21
Speaker
for graduate school. Like I'm older, I have, you know, fewer, I've gone through my phase of like feeling insecure and like wondering if everyone's judging me and thinking I'm stupid every time I speak in class. I was like, oh, I've done all that, I'm not gonna, hopeful that it would, right? I was like, you know, I made it, I'm here, I made it here on my own whatever, like I worked hard and I'm here, so it's gonna be fine. And then,
00:22:48
Speaker
I guess everything just came back, like all of those fears. And also because, like, I had no idea how this system works, right? So I'm completely new to the American education system. I'm a very, like, Westernized Indian person. Like, I'm I, you know, I went to, you know, an English medium school, I watched Friends when I was a kid, like, you know, when I was a teenager, like, I know all the references, you know, so I was also a part of me was like, I won't have the culture shock.
00:23:18
Speaker
that, again, like 20 years ago, people would report having when they would first fly here with no cell phone with nothing. And I was like, no, I know, I know American culture. I'm, I'm, I'm subsumed in American culture. I'm going to be fine.
00:23:31
Speaker
But it's not that. The knowledge of what's happening around you doesn't make you any more comfortable in it. And so it was so much harder for me to be here the first year than I thought it would be. And I really struggled. And again, I'm very grateful to be at a university that has resources,
00:23:54
Speaker
You know, not all resources will work all the time, but at least those resources are there. I'm also in, you know, WUWU, California, where everyone takes mental health really seriously, which is fantastic.
00:24:09
Speaker
And so, you know, I was able to access resources and over time figure out what's best for me, what my limits are. And like Alyssa and I have talked about this, but like, you know, I don't have to take four graduate seminars the first quarter just to prove to my faculty that I belong here. You make the right decision. Thank you for telling me that.
00:24:30
Speaker
I took four or seven hours in my first term. Oh my god. That sounds absolutely horrid. Because of show, I'm taking two and it's great. Yeah. And it's a normal amount of work. It's normal. It's still a lot of work. I can't imagine doing four.
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah. It's like you're in it. What are they going to do? Take it away? Yeah. I know. No, no joke. That's exactly, that's exactly like sometimes in my most insane moments, like that's what I would say to my partner. I'd be like, Oh my God, you think they're going to kick me out? Yeah. I mean, I can see that.
00:25:08
Speaker
Not like them taking you out, but being like that mentality of just like, oh my God, like what if like, I'm the imposter? Right. And it's the idea that like it's ridiculous, but it's true that 98% of us are having imposter syndrome.
00:25:22
Speaker
which, you know, what does that even mean? Like all of us are just bouncing off our anxieties off each other and it's just becomes this loop. We're all just like, I'm not worthy. Right. You're worthy. I'm not worthy. You're totally worthy. You're super awesome. But me on the other hand, I don't belong here. Exactly. Yeah, it just becomes like this mobile strip you can't get off of. Right. And so I think just
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah, being away from home and not realizing that that was actually a thing that would affect me. And being in a new institution that I was having to learn how to navigate and then having imposter syndrome, I think the combination of those things just completely wrecked my mental health.
00:26:09
Speaker
It took me a while to access resources. It took me a while to recognize that I need to slow down so that, you know, I don't ruin my entire PhD, just because I'm trying so hard to catch up in my quote unquote catch up in my first year.
00:26:25
Speaker
Yeah, it was a really painful process. I was really miserable for a lot of it. But I think we did an episode when ice was doing the foreign student ban. And I remember I had talked to you like right before doing that episode and you were really stressed about it and like not knowing if you're going to quit or like keep going or
00:26:47
Speaker
because all of that was happening and a whole bunch of uncertainty and so yeah that was part of her first year also yeah and that came at a time when like I had finished my first year and I was feeling like okay it wasn't great it wasn't perfect like literally like you know like
00:27:05
Speaker
shelter in place happened in finals week of winter quarter and like everything was awful but I was like okay I got through it right I got through the really hard first year and now hopefully things will get easier and then that that ice thing came out and I was just like okay at this point is it just easier to quit and go home
00:27:25
Speaker
You know what I mean? It is easier, but... Right, but it's a... Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it... Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Again, I'm grateful that I had, you know, I have some friends here already, like my best friend goes to Cal and so, you know, she and I were able to like talk through this and...
00:27:43
Speaker
you know, like, yeah, it ended up okay. But I will say that even when they rescinded that whatever thing that they had come out with, everyone like texted me saying like, okay, everything's okay now. And I was like, no, not really. Because, because I mean, you know, again, this speaks to sort of my privilege as you know, the model minority who got to come here on a PhD scholarship, right? Like,
00:28:07
Speaker
That was the first time I got to really think about what it must be like to be undocumented in this country, or got to think about what it's like to be an agricultural worker in this country. I don't have those issues as a foreigner. I'm the foreigner they want, usually, until they didn't want even me for some time. And so, yeah, I had to have a conversation with myself about, you're so extremely privileged, please shut up, sit down.
00:28:35
Speaker
do something good with your, with the resources you're being given. But it was just like, it was just like the cherry on like the shit cake of the year. Yeah, definitely. At least it was a cherry though. It's the fly on top. Yeah. Good things now. Good things about graduate school.
00:29:02
Speaker
Oh, the library is incredible.
Stanford's Support System
00:29:06
Speaker
Oh, really? It's incredible. Thanks for having been. I am so mad at you. But I get it. This is a different world now. But it's harder to get in and get out of the library. But I love the library, the resources that they have. I mean, honestly, I was telling you guys, my site, there's been no archaeologist has ever worked there. The Archaeological Survey of India has
00:29:32
Speaker
done some sort of, quote unquote, beautification of the site for tourism purposes. But there's been no archaeological research of the site. There's been some architectural historians. There's been textual historians, but zero archaeology. And so when I was coming here, I, of course, brought all my material with me, all the secondary texts. And I was like, because I'm not going to get anything here. You would be so surprised as to how much there is specifically on my site in this library.
00:30:02
Speaker
I'm like, who is this curator? I need to meet this person. Who is this subject specialist who figured out that in 20 years or something, there's going to be this one student who's interested in this site. Let's get these books for her. The library is incredible. The library staff is beyond. If they can't get you a book, they will buy it for you. If you need a chapter, they will have it scanned from across the country and have it in your inbox in a week. Yeah, I feel like I'm so much more productive because I'm not
00:30:31
Speaker
you know, my hands are not tied behind my back due to limited resources. That's just been fantastic. And I love the archaeology center. That's the other thing I'll say. And again, Alyssa has heard me wax. Also haven't been there yet. Well, OK, the concept of the archaeology center, which you also haven't really seen yet. But because our home department is anthropology, but it leans very heavily, cultural anthropology,
00:30:59
Speaker
which is fine, but like having the archaeology center as a space, even just like not a physical space, but like a mental space has been really nice because it's just where a bunch of archaeologists congregate. It's where we're all really interested in each other's work where there's like, you know, eyes don't glaze over quite as much when you talk to each other. Because even when someone's telling me about like, you know, a Chinese immigrant site in California, I'm as interested as I as when someone's talking about, you know, Peruvian
00:31:29
Speaker
like a typical Peruvian site. So I just feel like I was really grateful for the community of archaeologists here. They really sort of reminded me why I worked so hard to get here.
00:31:44
Speaker
And it's been really nice. Yeah. I'm really thankful for my advisor. He and I are very different people. We have very different ways of working, but we get along really well. And, you know, like you're always sort of rolling the dice when you pick an advisor and you go work for them. You don't really know how it's going to work out. I don't mind saying this, but it's silly, but like my mentors so far in my life have all been women.
00:32:11
Speaker
You know, like my master's advisor, my MPhil advisor, my first boss, my second boss, like at my jobs have all been women. And so one of the things I was really like, oh my God, I'm going to have to work with a man. Yeah. Yeah. He's been really great. And I've been really grateful to have someone I've worked with and, you know.
Role of a Supportive Advisor
00:32:30
Speaker
Again, like when I was going through all my shit last year, one of my fears was talking to him about it, right? Because he, again, like, I don't know if this is something about me or this is just how a lot of us are in academia, but I was just like, shit, he's gonna feel like I let him down.
00:32:45
Speaker
Or he's going to be like, dang, this girl is falling apart. I could have had a more resilient student. But he wasn't like that at all. He was just like, what resources do you need? How can I make this process easier for you? And I appreciated that. I don't know. It's sad that we don't expect this of faculty. And hopefully, this is changing. This is a sign that it's changing, because he's a younger faculty.
00:33:14
Speaker
But I was really glad for that. I was really glad to know that I had someone on my side in the department when I had created a monster of the department who was going to judge me for not being perfect. Do you think it helped that you had known him previously and you worked with him before so you knew how he operated and all that stuff?
00:33:36
Speaker
I think it helped me in the sense that I'm a very anxious person. I don't think it's like a prerequisite. I don't think that, you know, it's not as if you can't have a really fulfilling and meaningful relationship with your advisor if you've only met them for the first time after getting here or getting to graduate school. But I think because I am the kind of person I am and I was so anxious and I'm so
00:33:58
Speaker
afraid of authority figures, something I'm working through in therapy. We love that. Snaps to that. Thank you. Thank you very much. But because of that, it really helped me to know that I know someone here already.
00:34:15
Speaker
you know, who I can go to. And yeah, that's been something I'm grateful for. I can only imagine. That's why I was just like, I feel like for you, that would have been just like the perfect to most ideal situation, especially coming from.
00:34:28
Speaker
thousands of miles away and just like, I know friends and I know references. I think, I think I'll be great. And then just like the whole like culture shock when that hit and like, I can't, I can't imagine that. Yeah. It's, it's weird to explain what the culture shock is. I don't think I've even still been able to put into words. Like I can have these conversations really easily, right? Like I'm able to talk to people here about everything. I don't know. I think the culture shock is more about.
00:34:57
Speaker
how people socialize or the dynamics in any given group or setting.
Cultural Dynamics as an International Student
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah. It's like the small nuances of everyday life that are different, that just pile up. And I think my cohort is very international. And I think several of us were dealing with that. We're dealing with the, hey, why am I not fitting in seamlessly here? Why is this work?
00:35:26
Speaker
Which I don't think is anyone's fault. I think it's just, yeah, I'm in a new place. It's hard. Yeah, so I guess my advice to anyone who's listening to this, who's not American and is coming here for the first time is be kind to yourself. It's gonna be hard and reach out to the therapist in the university. Seriously. Go to therapy. Go to therapy. That's definitely one person that you know that you can talk to about
00:35:56
Speaker
anything that would just be there for you and understand in any way, shape, or form that they're trying to understand. Yeah, because I think you're trying to navigate in graduate school also how much of yourself to be. Because it's the next step in your career, right? So you want to be super professional. You want to come across as very put together and someone motivated. But then you have days when you're falling apart.
00:36:26
Speaker
You know, like, hopefully you'll make friends. Hopefully you'll have really close friends. And I did, and I was very grateful for them, but we were all dealing with shit. And so it's really nice to have someone whose entire job is to like help you figure this out, help you vent it out. Definitely.
00:36:43
Speaker
I think it was really cool coming into school with you and Jocelyn because you both are very vocal about mental health stuff also, which I've never really had in my academic experiences. I did with Michaela in the UK, but we had a little trio of depression with Catherine.
00:37:10
Speaker
me, Michaela, and Catherine. So we were very vocal about everything, but we didn't use any, like, there weren't obvious resources to use at our master's degree and, like, heard a lot of, like, bad things about it, like, oh, they take forever and that sort of stuff. So it didn't seem
00:37:27
Speaker
attainable to seek help while out there. But I think it's a completely different vibe over here in terms of resources and how to manage. And then everyone here has been very welcoming and something I noticed, which is so... I hate that it's weird, but when we were first introducing ourselves to everyone in the first five Zoom calls,
00:37:55
Speaker
They always ask for pronouns, too, which is something I've never experienced before. And I thought that's so cool. And even the students that I've run into on campus ask immediately for your pronouns. And I think that's so awesome. And it's something I've never done or been asked for. And that's also super cool. So that's another visual change you can see happening in academia and just the world in general.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah, and again, I don't know if it's particularly our university and because we're in California, we're very progressive when it comes to identity. But yeah, it truly surprised me as well on campus that everyone sort of wants to know how to address you and it's so respectful and it's incredible. And it should be the norm everywhere.
00:38:45
Speaker
I've been seeing more of like a precedence for that too, especially like Twitter, social media, just being like, Hey, everyone put pronouns in your bio, like bring awareness to using pronouns and like what you want to be referred to as and make this norm.
00:39:01
Speaker
Right. I think that's the other thing. It takes away this onus and this burden from non-binary people and trans people who may use pronouns different from how they present or anything. What it says is that we're all in this together. We're all gendered and
00:39:23
Speaker
And so it's part of our responsibility as well to meet you halfway there so you're not the ones sticking out like sore thumbs, quote unquote.
00:39:33
Speaker
Yeah, no, I really appreciate that. And that's a really good point, Alyssa. I remember my first theory class as well. Again, a really respected professor who's about to retire. You don't expect that, right? But he was like, when you introduce yourself, could you give me your pronouns? And he would write them down. And I was like, wow, this is great. Very unexpected and pleasantly surprised and very happy about it.
00:39:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It only bodes well, right? For what's to come. Yeah. Love seeing these type of changes. We love seeing positivity towards mental health and like there's stigma about it. We love seeing proper use of pronouns. We just love this stuff. We love it all. Yeah. Whatever makes this easier. Exactly. Our co-passengers on this journey.
00:40:28
Speaker
Yeah I think also like since I've been here like before applying to a PhD pretty much the only thing I heard was like don't do it you're gonna hate it it takes too long you're not gonna make any money you're not gonna have a job like all that sort of stuff just making it sound like this big giant daunting task that I didn't want to do
Passion vs. Income: The PhD Journey
00:40:49
Speaker
But being here and being in it and being aware of mental health and resources and being funded and all those things make it not as scary as people make it out to be. Yeah, it's still a lot of work and it's still hard and all that stuff, but I don't think it's
00:41:09
Speaker
by any means like the worst time of someone's life or like not worth it in the end or at least not as a first term student in a PhD program that's my current opinion we'll see if it changes later but
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I was constantly told, oh, you shouldn't do it. You should just go work instead because you'll make so much more money and be happier because you'll have more money and blah, blah, blah, and that sort of stuff. So I'm really glad I didn't listen to that. And so far, it's been awesome. I think what often a lot of people assume is that why would you want to put in six or seven years of work into something and then have to struggle getting a job?
00:41:53
Speaker
Right. Like that's that's the thing that I think a lot of people who have not been in academia don't understand. And I guess what I would argue is that like all jobs suck. Right. Every job sucks. Work. Working is hard. Like having to get away, like step away from your family, step away from your loved ones for eight hours a day.
00:42:14
Speaker
and work at something when you're not feeling it, when you're on your period. Work is evil in some ways, but all work is evil. So why would doing a desk job
00:42:29
Speaker
be any better than being a graduate student if one of them actually gives you a sense of clarity and motivation that you wouldn't get at that desk job. And that's not to knock against desk jobs, right? Like I worked at a desk job for four years and I loved it, but I realized in that process that, oh, what I really want to do is archaeology.
00:42:47
Speaker
Even if I make no money ever, in my PhD, I'm very comfortable. I have a house. I get to order in Chinese food every now and then when I feel like it. Things are pretty good in graduate school, but all jobs are hard. All jobs should have access to mental health resources. All jobs should welcome you with a puppy.
00:43:13
Speaker
This is what my friend Matt always jokes. He's like, if I ever get a job and I'm a professor and I have graduate students, when I welcome them, I will be giving them a list of therapists and a puppy.
00:43:29
Speaker
Like welcome to the department, we care about your mental health. Every professor should be required to have a puppy in their office. Right. But like, I just feel like, yeah, like everything is hard. Life is hard, right? And I don't think academia is that much worse than any other system in the world. Like with every job, it's meant for some people, some things aren't meant for other people, and you just have to find
00:43:57
Speaker
your path and the balance that you find along the way as well. And you make it work because it's something that you love to do. And if you don't love it, or if you just, you're feeling struggling and you're just like, man, I really enjoy this. I just not having a good time right now. And then you just work through it. Wife is a roller coaster. If it was, if it was just going straight with no ups or downs, what is that? Yeah.
00:44:22
Speaker
But you are also allowed to quit. I think I'll just say that. That whole mantra of if you love what you do, it won't feel like work. I don't agree at all. We're saying,
00:44:36
Speaker
this is hard work. And some days we're not happy doing it. And there are people who quit, you know, like priorities change, what you want for yourself changes, and that's totally fine. And I think that's the thing, like, maybe in that sense, academia is a bit worse than other spaces, because we're very sort of like, oh my god, how could you quit? What are you gonna do with your life now? You know, like, you wasted all that time. Mm hmm.
00:45:05
Speaker
But I think if we can get rid of those parts, then people can just move through and do the best they can. And everyone can try. And yeah, I don't know. It's so great to be an archaeologist. I can't believe I get paid to sit and read the stuff that I get to sit and read. It's such a dream come true.
00:45:32
Speaker
After hearing how miserable I was in that first year, it's still my dream come true. Both things can be true at once is, I guess, what I'm trying to say. That wasn't about archaeology, though. That was about life in general. But I guess, sure. Archaeology wasn't hurting you.
00:45:49
Speaker
Right, but I guess wanting to do archaeology brought me here and, you know, being here was hard, right? Like, but both things can be true at once. I was loving being in that archaeological theory class, but I was also completely spent and tired and crying myself to sleep, like not understanding why I was so miserable. Yeah, I think we just have to give ourselves that space to try, I guess.
00:46:13
Speaker
Yeah. Allow yourself to accept like, oh, I'm feeling like this and like kind of not relish in it, but talk to yourself to understand like, okay, what, what's going on
Coping Mechanisms: Paper Cranes
00:46:26
Speaker
up here? What's, what you thinking about? Why we sad today? Yes. Maybe a little bit less cheers. Like what's going on, but like being nice to yourself, but also just like, okay, what's happening up here? Like what's going on in this little brain of mine?
00:46:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really key like being keyed into how you're feeling cuz yeah Yeah, it's a hard process right like next year I gotta sit like I gotta study for my exams and like everyone stole me. It's a really hard year You're gonna be alone reading like hundreds of books. I Have to make sure I can do that without you know sacrificing my mental health Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'll be here for you. Thank you. I'll be here for you
00:47:10
Speaker
I'll just be here. Yeah, one of my coping mechanisms this term that I'm trying out is folding a paper crane every time I want to explode. How many do you have? I currently have five.
00:47:26
Speaker
Oh, that's not bad. Which isn't that bad. Yeah, it's only I'm saving it only for like really tough times, you know, like, like where you just don't want to do any work because the world is on fire, like those times. It's not just like every time I get stressed, because then I would have like 200 already.
00:47:45
Speaker
But yeah, so it's like a way to like turn it into something pretty and then I hang it on my fairy lights and they just like hang over the bed now. And so yeah, I write like a little blurb of like what stressed me out.
00:47:58
Speaker
I love that. But also, your hands are going to get a workout in November. Wait, why November? What's coming in November? I mean, no, not academically, just in the world. Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, also academically, trying to write a paper when, you know.
00:48:20
Speaker
I'm already mentally in November. I've been coping with that by doing as much as I can. I did voting early. I've been doing the texting stuff. I've been posting everywhere and donating the thing. I'm like, okay, if everything goes to shit, it wasn't my fault.
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, we can channel. There's many ways to channel that nervous energy. But yeah, I'm fully prepared to just face plant in the grass for like a whole week. Let's do it together socially. Let's do it. Understand for longs.
00:49:06
Speaker
I'm down. We should just start like a sit-in but on the grass face down. And we'll be right back after this break. And we're back. I have a question for you guys. So I was listening to your earlier episodes where you talk about, you know, Michaela, I think you work on VR archaeology.
00:49:25
Speaker
And Alyssa, I know you work with GPR and LiDAR and other things. And these are specifically the kind of things that I, I'm not quite sure how they apply to my site, but that's the question for me always, is what are these skills and what are the skills I need to learn in order to answer the kinds of questions I may be interested in for my site?
00:49:48
Speaker
And that's sort of one of the reasons I came here is like, you know, I have access to these skills because, you know, back in India, like, archaeology subsumed under the history department. But we don't have technical resources, not really, like, except for like three or four departments in the country. You don't get to really learn how to, you know, I learned how to do a total station on an American, like, American professor's excavation. I never learned it from my home university. But, like, I wanted to ask you guys, like,
00:50:16
Speaker
The skills you've learned, have they sort of defined your research interests or is it vice versa?
Skills in Archaeology: GIS and More
00:50:23
Speaker
And like, are there skills you feel like you don't have yet and you want, or just generally what you guys think about this sort of dynamic between research questions and tech, tech skills.
00:50:34
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I think for me, I found GIS like right after I found archaeology. So I started doing that pretty early in my like career, quote unquote career. And so I honestly can only say that that is my skill is GIS because like, yeah, that incorporates like lidar and other remote sensing data, but it's all using the same program pretty much.
00:51:00
Speaker
In the field, there's always a GPR guy or a total station guy. I have never been told to do those things, so I still don't actually know how to use GPR or total station. We did a couple courses in the UK with magnetometry and that sort of stuff.
00:51:24
Speaker
Yeah, in the field, I've only really used GIS. And so the skills that I still need to learn are very plentiful. But I think what I particularly want to learn from this PhD program has to do a lot with the theory and ways to answer questions and think critically about things because
00:51:46
Speaker
Up until now, it's only been methods for me. And I think as a good archaeologist, you have to kind of have both equally as good. So that's my skill goal for the next few years is to learn how to think critically in ways that I haven't before.
00:52:08
Speaker
Well, there's a lot to unpack here. Well, I'm kind of similar to Shabna in a way that when I was doing field work and when I was learning
00:52:22
Speaker
archaeology in my undergrad, I literally was loving every single thing about it, where I loved being in the field, I loved being in the lab, just working with everything. And I loved being there from the moment it came out to the dirt to being 3D modeled after it's been cleaned up. I loved just touching everything. I was like, that's my biggest thing. I just love touching things that you're not supposed to touch. If there's a do not touch sign, I would, as a kid, I would stick my hand behind. I'm like, nice.
00:52:54
Speaker
There's a whole story with that too, but I won't go into it. When I was going to Bulgaria for my field school, I was coming into the terms of if I wanted to pursue visual anthropology or what else could I do that for archaeology.
00:53:10
Speaker
And that's when I discovered 3D modeling in archaeology, making renders of sites, artifacts, all this stuff. And I was like, this is it. This is what I want to do. And I came up with all these ideas of what I wanted to incorporate in being able to make 3D models of sites, artifacts.
00:53:30
Speaker
and put them into virtual reality for people anywhere in the world with the access to be able to go to these sites, feel these things with like haptic gloves and things that are not really accessible as of right now, but they are becoming more accessible and less expensive. And there's just so many things going into that direction right now.
00:53:52
Speaker
And so going into the master's where I was able to refine my interests and definitely going more into the route of accessibility.
00:54:02
Speaker
and just wanting to do everything with it and being able to digitize everything and just be there onsite in the projects. That was just really enthralling to me where I'm able to do this in order for other people to be able to have access. And that was making me more excited because I'm like, this makes me excited. So hopefully this can make somebody else excited. So just like learning the 3D rendering modeling virtual
00:54:32
Speaker
putting things into virtual reality, that's definitely become my skill set. And I've had the experience in the total station all like field work, which has been helpful for me in the CRM job. But I feel like
00:54:49
Speaker
I'm not too sure what I'm lacking, but I know that when it comes to me where it's just like, oh, like what she said about radiocarbon dating, I remember learning about that in my undergrad, but I haven't touched that since my first or second year. So definitely skills of more like of the physical side or of dating methods and more tangible, I guess, tangible archeology rather than just
00:55:18
Speaker
just this recreation in a way. If that was at all anything clear, I went on his tangent. Not at all. Actually, like you made me think of something, which is that do things. One is that like, one is just like the field work we do versus what you're saying, right? It's like actually making what we do accessible.
00:55:43
Speaker
Right. So its first step is the research, then it's like the interpretation, then it's the public publication, but academic publications are really like, you know, opaque. And so, right, like places like spaces like 3D archaeology and, you know, creating like VR experiences brings it to an audience. And that's really, I think it intersects really interestingly with like questions of heritage and
00:56:12
Speaker
conservation of sites and if sites have become too overcrowded. I know Angkor is a super overcrowded site pre-pandemic and if some people could visit it through VR, wouldn't that be great? And I guess the other thing I was thinking about completely different from this was
00:56:32
Speaker
I think one thing I didn't say is also there's a difference between when you're part of a big team versus when you're doing your own project. And I think some people I know have their PhD projects come out of a large excavation. So if they're looking at the funnel material, that's all they're doing. They excavate with the group, and then they just focus on the funnel material.
00:57:00
Speaker
And so they need to learn those skills. Me on the other hand, what I want to do at least and what I did for my MPhil is that I was doing a survey. And so research question aside and everything else aside, anything I was documenting and recording, I had to interpret.
00:57:17
Speaker
right? So like if I'm if I'm collecting radiocarbon I have to figure out like of course like I mean either I have to learn how to you know process it or like have it sent but like in India like I didn't have that choice or I mean anyway sorry but I guess what I'm trying to say is that
00:57:39
Speaker
It's also different based on the kind of research you're interested in, the kind of project you end up working with. Like you may only need to learn the few skills for the questions you're interested in, or you may have to have like a broad repertoire. Like I know for my PhD, I have to like learn how to work a total station. I have to like be able to like, you know, collect and analyze ceramics, collect and analyze like any other material I may find. And that goes beyond the more larger theoretical questions. It's just like a lot of different things.
00:58:10
Speaker
And the thing that I keep getting stuck at, and I guess that's why I asked you guys this question, is how much is too much? How much is taking on too much? What is it that I can...
00:58:20
Speaker
you know, give up, like be like, no, this it's okay. It's right. Like give this to someone else. Keep that material aside in your university lab or in, you know, wherever. And some other student three years from now, like a master student might want to, you know, have a crack at it. And, you know, like you don't have to do everything single handedly yourself is I guess what I'm trying to tell myself. And like, I wonder if you guys ever think, like, I was just curious if you, if this is a question that you guys have thought about.
00:58:50
Speaker
Yes, definitely. Especially because I am not an artistic person and artistic in a way where it's I can't draw that type of artistic. It's like I'm good with like kind of like having this vision and directing and it's like I know what I want to do and like how to do it.
00:59:08
Speaker
I just know that I am not the best person suited for that. But somebody else can make a better 3D model than I can, even though we have this same technology, everything's the same, like basically the same ingredients to make this cake. There's just some people with that different flair, but they just have this knack for it. And I know for a lot of things that I have the knack, but it's just not to that extent. Maybe that's like my imposter syndrome. I don't know.
00:59:38
Speaker
But it's like I'm recognizing it's like I know people that could do this way better than I can. And I can like do this like bare bones thing where it's just getting together all like these thoughts and this concoction of this experience. And then it's just like, I need help though. I need help to make this the experience that I want other people to consume, or not consume, but to engage with.
01:00:03
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it also depends on like your, like back to your question. Cause it, well, are you doing your survey by yourself or do you have people with you? I mean, I mean, I guess my dream scenario is that just like I helped
01:00:24
Speaker
you know, PhD students when I was an undergraduate. Higher some undergrads. Right. I can reach out to like University of India and like I have connections to be like, Hey, do you have archaeology students or history students who might be interested to learn about fieldwork?
01:00:39
Speaker
you know that's I mean that's pretty much a lot of how a lot of us learned the tricks of the trade and so yeah but like technically it's still like my project right like and and it's something like I never had to think about earlier when I was just a volunteer I was like tell me what to do and I'll do it but now that I'm in the like now that I'm in the supervisor's shoes or I will be I'm like
01:01:00
Speaker
I'm like, oh my god, you had to record that huge reservoir, but also collect ceramics and also collect radiocarbon. How can this one person work with all of this material?
01:01:17
Speaker
But that also answers your question of like what you should be focusing on. And I will always be an advocate for GIS because I think that's applicable in many different fields and everyone in archaeology is using it now. So if there was like one technical skill I would tell everyone to get, it would be GIS. Because I feel like stuff like the total station and magnetometry and stuff that can be
01:01:42
Speaker
taught and learned pretty quickly like in the field if you have someone there who's done it before or even not like you can look up the manual and do that but I feel like GIS is more of like a language where you kind of have to know like what its capabilities are in order to figure out like how to do things and
01:02:01
Speaker
So yeah, I think if I had to pick one skill, it would definitely be GIS to learn if you wanted to focus on one thing and here. And I think especially if you're working, you know, with a spatial component, do your research, right? If you're not working sort of vertically, like you're not at an excavation or you're not working with excavated material, but you're thinking of survey or a little landscape. I agree with you.
01:02:27
Speaker
That's one of the big reasons I'm here. I've taken two GIS courses already and I'm trying to get better at it.
Future Collaboration and Research Plans
01:02:34
Speaker
That's part of the whole reason to come here. I have one question for you, Alyssa. Arc or Q? Arc. I have used QGIS once and I hated it.
01:02:50
Speaker
But I've been told that I need to learn QGIS because that's the one that everyone has access to and it's freely available and blah blah blah. But I just think Arc looks so much nicer and it's like what I'm familiar with and just like the thought of learning another platform like terrifies me. ArcGIS 10.4 because that's the one that I have and I don't want anything newer. I don't want anything older. I don't want Q. That's what I want forever. But I know that's not going to be the case.
01:03:20
Speaker
Hey, ArcGIS, do you need some sponsors? I want these. Exactly. I always feel like it's one of those questions to ask GIS practitioners. Keywork. It's so hard to keep up with updates with the system because they just released, what is it, ArcPro or
01:03:38
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't even touched that yet. I'm scared to do that. It's good that you already know your ArcGIS because some of the Spatial Center courses on campus are all on the ArcGIS Pro. However, you may have to do some QGIS in your methods course, just warning you now.
01:03:59
Speaker
Uh, it's fine. I mean, I think it's probably better to go from arc to cue than it is for like from cue to arc. Cause I think arc is more complex and you can like do more things with it and there's more buttons. So yeah, I think hopefully I'll be fine. Okay. Well, thank you so much Showna for joining us today. It was so great to talk with you and hear about your research. And I look forward to the next.
01:04:28
Speaker
four to five years of our lives working together. You're going to get so sick of hearing about my research. I will never. I know. That's the fun of being archaeologists, right? I'm guessing in any field, but I'm just going to talk about archaeology. We could listen to each other forever. Yes, definitely. We're particularly biased because it's just so awesome. But yes, thank you so much.
01:04:56
Speaker
Thank you guys for having me. This is like a dream come true to get to talk about my, like to get to talk about being an archeologist. This is, this is fantastic. And I'm glad you guys are, I'm glad you guys are doing a podcast about being an archeologist in 2020 as two women. Like it's really, really important. So I'm really glad you guys are doing this.
01:05:20
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much. We should do a check-in episode at some point next year, see how much has changed. You can reflect on your first year. Oh, I know. We'll see you guys next time. See you later. Bye. Bye. This show is produced by the Archaeology Podcast Network, Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle in Reno, Nevada at the Reno Collective.
01:05:50
Speaker
This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.