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Allison Wolf, Professional Development Coach
111 Plays4 years ago
Michael sits down with Allison Wolf, founder of ShiftWorks Coaching for Lawyers (https://thelawyercoach.com/). She is also the publisher of the law blog “Attorney With A Life," and has co-presented with Michael on a number of occasions.
Tune in for a lively, frank, and insightful conversation about the unique challenges lawyers face in juggling the many roles they play, and some practical tips and strategies that you can utilize in any practice setting, at any stage of your career.
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Transcript
Embracing Challenges and Stress
00:00:09
Speaker
We have to take on new challenges. We need to face the fear and fear is not a bad thing. And the stress isn't bad. It's there because something's new and we're learning.
Introduction to Thriving Lawyers Podcast
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome back to the Thriving Lawyers Podcast. I'm Michael Kahn, a retired lawyer and currently a licensed professional counselor. And we have as a guest on this episode of the podcast, Allison.
00:00:39
Speaker
Wolf, who is founder of the company, Shiftworks, coaching for lawyers. Welcome, Alison.
Allison Wolf's Journey to Coaching
00:00:49
Speaker
Oh, Michael, it's so great to be here with you today. Thank you. I'm excited. Alison is a colleague and a good friend and we've done some work together and we'll mention that as we go along. But Alison, I want you to first introduce yourself and your company to
00:01:09
Speaker
the listeners and what your goals are at Shiftworks. Okay. Yeah. So you can find me at the LawyerCoach.com. It's a very creative name for my website. And I'd say that I'm a coach. I've been a coach since 2004. So this is my 16th year of practice as a coach.
00:01:29
Speaker
Before that, I was a marketing director for law firms and I like to tell my clients when they ask what happened was in early 2000, I discovered the first time I was enjoying my work. I had one of those moments and I realized, wow, why am I enjoying my work all of a sudden?
00:01:45
Speaker
I had an opportunity to work one to one with the lawyers in my firm on what did they want to make happen and how were they going to get there. And I discovered that that's kind of what the practice of coaching is about. And so I started, I went and got my certification and launched myself as a coach back in 2004.
00:02:02
Speaker
I chose the company name Shiftworks at that time because I'd like to think, you just need to shift
Mission of Shiftworks Coaching
00:02:07
Speaker
a little bit. Change is hard. Just shift a little bit, right? But what I can tell you, Michael, is I'm so excited to be here with you today on the Thriving Lawyer podcast because what I think about my work as a coach, it really is, if we had in a nutshell to say, what's this about? It's about helping lawyers develop thriving practices.
00:02:26
Speaker
And that can mean a lot of things, right? But it means a practice that they're enjoying, that is internally gratifying, but is also extrinsically gratifying, and that isn't taking them away from other parts of their life that are equally important.
Universal Challenges for Lawyers
00:02:41
Speaker
Thriving means so many things. And so I'm delighted to be here because it's the perfect podcast for me to be speaking at. It is, it is. In fact, I noticed on your website, you say that
00:02:52
Speaker
Your coaching practice is entirely focused on lawyers helping them thrive, not just survive. And that you work with lawyers both in the US where most of our listeners will be from, but also in Canada where we have listeners as well. I love the cross border practice. I did spend some time working in New York and DC.
00:03:12
Speaker
And I find the challenges that lawyers are facing is the same on either side of the border.
Finding Fulfillment in Legal Careers
00:03:19
Speaker
So right now I have a very rich practice with clients from Florida and Houston and San Francisco and DC and New York and different parts of California. And that just keeps it interesting for me. I like also what you said about when you were marketing director for the law firm, that there were moments where you were particularly enjoying your work.
00:03:40
Speaker
And what you did, which is what I encourage my clients to do, and when I speak, I talk about this, is pay attention to times when, in this case, if I'm seeing clients, times when the problem isn't there. Like for example, you're not happy at your work. When are you enjoying your work? Are there times where you are enjoying it or when have you enjoyed it? And that's exactly what you did. You paid attention to.
00:04:08
Speaker
when you were enjoying work, when you were most enjoying work, and that helps you get on the path that you're on. So I think that's a great living example of what I talk with my clients about.
00:04:20
Speaker
Yeah, I talk about that with my clients too. And I see it almost like maybe it's like a little bit of a dark pathway through the woods. And then you've got these, these light posts, right? Shining a light, a circle of light on the path. And when we're in those places of engagement or we're energized, that's the
Coaching with Metaphors
00:04:38
Speaker
clue, right? That's, that's the big clue for what's important and where you're going to find the most satisfaction. That's the place that has so much important information for all of us.
00:04:48
Speaker
Whenever we talk either in a formal way, like on this podcast or communicating on email, I love your use of metaphors, which I think are really helpful. That's why I love movies so much because movies are metaphors and stories and you tend to use those in your language. And I think that's probably very helpful for your clients. Hopefully it's helpful and not a distraction. That's all I can say.
Systemic Issues in Law Firms
00:05:10
Speaker
It's not a distraction for me, but there's one person that it helps.
00:05:15
Speaker
So what have you seen as the challenges lawyers are facing in terms of thriving? Are there particular personality traits or things that lawyers have learned over the years in law school and then out in practice?
00:05:30
Speaker
and systemic challenges that are hurdles to thriving. Michael, you really like the wide question. Break it down however you want. Yeah. Have you got 365 days? Okay. I'm going to talk this question a couple of ways and I'm going to start with a little bit about systemic because this has been on my mind a great deal. I work with all kinds of lawyers at all different times in their practice.
00:05:58
Speaker
a lot of folks when they're becoming a senior associate and moving into partnership or they're starting their own firms now, they're moving out on their own. I really have had an interest in the young lawyers as well. I mean, it's hard for them to afford a coach, right? But when you talk about what's the challenge to thriving, there's a couple of things. Number one, when it comes to leadership in law firms compared to the corporate sector, I got to say it. Law firms are in kindergarten and corporate sector
00:06:26
Speaker
is an university in terms of where they're at, in terms of their education and what they know about leadership. This is not true across the board. You know, perhaps some of the larger firms have invested in this, but generally speaking, leadership skills are not skills that are taught in law school.
00:06:41
Speaker
And then when you're in a small or midsize practice, you're just trying to get your legal work done. Right. And, you know, sure, there's going to be some natural skills that you've learned. Some people might have more strengths as a leader, but generally speaking, nobody's got much in the way of leadership training or, or experience. So it ends up being, well, my experience and how I learned to be a lawyer is how I'm going to expect you to learn
Navigating Career Paths
00:07:04
Speaker
to be a lawyer. Right. So.
00:07:07
Speaker
What it can say is a big obstacle to thriving sometimes can be the law firm environment. Would you say under the umbrella of leadership, is that mentoring?
00:07:16
Speaker
Lack of mentoring, yep, there may or may not be mentoring, especially if we're getting out of the big firms and most young lawyers are not moving into the big law firms. You're lucky if you get into one of the top firms, right? But for the ones who don't, and even if you are in those firms, it can be luck of the draw. What kind of mentor you're getting? What are the partners like that you're working with, right? And what kind of feedback or lack of feedback is there? And how good are they at actually giving useful constructive feedback?
00:07:45
Speaker
Oftentimes in law firms, we know no news is good news because the only time you're going to hear something about your work is when it needs to be fixed. So there's some challenges like that. I always say to younger lawyers, it's really important to learn how to paddle your own canoe and or how to paddle your own kayak because
00:08:06
Speaker
Law firms have their own pressures and they'll want to push you in a certain direction because that's where they need you to be. But it may not be where you want to be or the best fit for your practice,
New Leadership Perspectives
00:08:16
Speaker
right? And no one's really telling you how to navigate and how to pay attention to the good things and start to figure out, well, this may be the practice they want me to have, but what's the practice I want? So knowing how to navigate your legal career and your legal practice,
00:08:30
Speaker
is I think a big part of thriving. Because what's happening when you're thriving, you're doing work you enjoy, you're learning, you're growing. And that can happen absolutely in law, but it requires navigation.
00:08:42
Speaker
I love the new generation of lawyers that are coming through the law schools and coming out because they come from a very, very different background. And what I find these millennials know a lot about is leadership.
Growth Mindset in Legal Careers
00:08:53
Speaker
And they are struggling because they actually have kind of a higher sense of how leadership should be working because they're getting that and they've got that through their own experience. And as they came up through their education, they get to the law firm and all of a sudden they can't believe how things are working.
00:09:09
Speaker
That's a challenge, but at the same time, I see a huge opportunity for the legal profession, a huge opportunity for law firms to become better workplaces, more supportive of thriving legal practices because of the ideas and the inspiration that's going to come from this younger generation. So part of the change will be generational.
00:09:30
Speaker
That will lead to some of the changes. Absolutely. And later on in this, I want to tell you about a program that I'm doing. I'm so excited about aimed at those younger lawyers, but we can come back to that. The other piece on the internal side, there's a lot of things, right? That, that.
00:09:46
Speaker
For any of us, and not just lawyers, but any of us in a professional career or in business have to kind of grapple with. One is mindset. How are we thinking about what we're doing? What are the mindsets that we're bringing? Do we have a perfectionist mindset? Is it success, failure? Have we got a growth mindset? Are we willing to stretch out of our comfort zone to learn? Or do we feel like when it feels uncomfortable, something must be wrong. Mindset is very important to thriving. There are thriving mindsets.
Managing Time and Priorities
00:10:16
Speaker
Yeah, what generally you're seeing in the lawyers you see as far as their mindsets and the challenges that they face? I think lawyers are not all the same, so it can look like a lot of different things. But one is not becoming comfortable, but being willing to stretch and being willing to be uncomfortable. I think understanding the learning curve is really important and understanding that before confidence comes courage.
00:10:40
Speaker
We have to take on new challenges. We need to face the fear. And fear is not a bad thing. Stress isn't bad. It's there because something's new and we're learning. Through that cycle of taking on a challenge, learning, being courageous, learning, we develop competency. And out of that, we become confident.
00:10:57
Speaker
The perfectionist mindset can be very crippling for a lot of attorneys. Another key place for focusing on building a thriving practice is organization. You know, you've heard me say it before, Michael, I love talking about BS. Love BS, right? Boundaries and structure. Boundaries and structure. Wow. Those are so important to supporting thriving.
00:11:22
Speaker
And learning to say no in a way that still sustains relationship. Everybody listening, if you can pick up a copy of the positive no by William Urie, it's got to be one of the most important books to have on your bookshelf. Because you have to have boundaries and structure and you need to sometimes say no to protect those.
Support and Accountability
00:11:40
Speaker
Because if you don't as a lawyer, your life becomes open season.
00:11:45
Speaker
You know, it's everyone around you owns your time and you don't. And so you very quickly need to establish processes so that you get to spend time where it needs to be spent on your priorities, the commitments that are most important that day. And one of the things that lawyers can tend to do is think that they need to deal with problems or concerns on their own because they're fixers. I fix.
00:12:13
Speaker
other people's problems, so I should be able to do this on my own and they don't bring other people in, friends, family. So it can really help to have an accountability partner or someone who challenges them and pushes them. And that's why, that's where I see you doing such a great job is that you will be an accountability partner and you will be encouraging and bring energy to the conversation and also bring hope.
00:12:43
Speaker
and help lawyers envision something different? Yeah, all of that. And also connect them with outside resources. So for instance, one of my young clients needs to develop a more efficient way, an effective way of handling some of the research that's being assigned. So I'm having a conversation later today with a wonderful research lawyer who I've known for many years. And we're going to talk about some tips, and I'm probably going to bring some tips back to my client. And I also might hook them up with this individual so they can have a conversation.
Investing in Self-Growth
00:13:11
Speaker
it's so much easier when we don't go it alone and on that point two things i want to say is when you look at my clients i love them and so many of them are doing some amazing things and i'd say what distinguishes them not just that they ask for help but also that they are willing to invest in themselves
00:13:29
Speaker
And I think one of the most important things we can learn is to invest in our own professional development. Not expect that this is something that our law firm is going to give us or something that we're just entitled to that's going to come and be delivered to us, but something that we go out and we seek it and we get it.
00:13:45
Speaker
My clients, some of these associates are investing in themselves and you know what's happening? Great things, great things are happening for them. And it's because they have that mindset that I'm worth it. My career is worth it and I want to make it happen. And on that note, I just want to add, I've done the same thing. I don't just sit there and ask, you know, you attorney to invest in yourself. I've invested
Feedback and Leadership
00:14:07
Speaker
in myself. Do you know right now, Michael, I'm meeting with a business coach every week.
00:14:12
Speaker
every week and I'm in my 16th year of practice. You might say, Alison, do you really need a business coach? You've been out at 16 years and I'd say, you know what? I'm always seeking to get better and improve and transform. And so yeah, I'm now in a place in my practice where I can have a, you know, a session with my coach every week. Yeah. For us at real time, we, we fired a marketing consultant because we need to get better. We need to improve.
00:14:42
Speaker
in that area. And for me personally, I still seek out therapy when I need it. I'm a therapist, but therapists need therapy too for personal maintenance. So you're absolutely right that just because we've been added for a number of years, I've been a therapist since 1994. It doesn't mean that we can't learn and we can't grow, particularly hearing another's perspective too is helpful. I remember.
00:15:12
Speaker
at a workshop we did, we were talking about mentoring and one of the older lawyers raised his hand and said, you know, I tell the younger lawyers, I still have a mentor. It's not just for you younger lawyers. We need them too. And we of course loved that comment because we wanted the younger lawyers to know this is not just because somehow you're deficient and one day you'll get to that time where you'll be an older lawyer and you won't need any help at all. And it was really a great comment for them to hear.
00:15:39
Speaker
And having that outside advisor just speeds things up. It's just, it's effective. It's efficient. You don't know what you don't know. So isn't it great sometimes to just get a clue? I like that. It is, it is. Every once in a while it's good to get a clue. I like those moments. I just want to go back to the leadership just for a second that I wanted to ask you a question. Does leadership include being open to hear from
00:16:09
Speaker
the lawyers that report to the younger lawyers, the associate lawyers about their concerns. Like, does leadership include being available to hear about personal concerns that might be impacting lawyering? Or is that for lawyers to go seek out lawyer assistance program or something like that? Oh gosh, I thought that was a bit of a rhetorical question because yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to make sure because some law firms don't do a good job of that.
00:16:39
Speaker
None of them do. I was throwing them a bit of a bone, but yeah, go ahead. Speak to that. In terms of feedback for partners on how they're doing with their juniors, I have to say, I mean, there are firms that are doing surveys, right? And the partners get assessed by the junior. Let me ask you this. You're in a small group. There's a few of you associates. How honest are you going to be in your assessment of your partner in the current law firm environment? How much of a career enhancer is it to actually provide some critical feedback?
00:17:09
Speaker
Right now, is it safe? Is it secure? So, you know, I think we can say efforts are being made in some firms. Absolutely. And the intention is there and there's a, there's a willingness and interest in it. And there's a long way to travel. And the other part, what's the enemy here? What's the biggest obstacle? Time.
COVID-19 Challenges for Lawyers
00:17:30
Speaker
The partners I work with, they're extremely busy. They have a huge number of responsibilities on their shoulders. Right. And.
00:17:37
Speaker
That said, it's hard because they have enormous client pressures. They've got enormous amounts of work. So they're trying to do this leadership with what little crumbs of time that they have available, right? So we have to be compassionate and we have to understand that there are great challenges. And I think we have to celebrate the wins. I want to share a win with you, Michael, because, you know, having been kind of harsh there, I want to share a really important win.
00:17:59
Speaker
I know of a firm right now with a great leader, a litigator, who I really respect. There's a team of two of them, and I think they're fantastic. And with COVID happening, they were doing check-in calls and really checking in with their associates and with the remote working, trying to do their best to keep the morale up. And what they noticed was something was going wrong.
00:18:21
Speaker
The associates weren't telling them that something was wrong. They weren't feeding them information, but they could tell that energy levels were down. They could tell that morale was down. They could tell that this stuff was draining. And despite trying to get that intel out of the associates, they were having a hard time. And again, that comes, I think, to a little bit of the partner-associate relationship in a firm. So they had great intentions. And what did they do? They hired an outside person to come in, a former litigator counselor to come in and talk with associates about what was happening.
00:18:51
Speaker
in a confidential way, right? To be able to identify, is there a challenge here that we can address? And to bring that information up and forward to the firm and the practice group could work around that. And I think kudos to them. It's, you know, for making that investment in their people. And the two or three minutes we have left here, I'm glad you brought up COVID because I think it would have been negligent of us not to bring that up as certainly a major challenge for all of us.
00:19:20
Speaker
What are you noticing in your practice regarding COVID and how it's impacting your lawyers? Another broad question for you. So we could talk about a lot of different people having challenges right now. The group I'm going to zero in on right now are those young, they're younger lawyers who have got kids, young kids, they've got babies, they've got toddlers, or they've got kids in the younger grades in elementary school.
Adjusting Expectations During Pandemic
00:19:45
Speaker
And these days, you know, it's working parents. So there's two parents at home.
00:19:51
Speaker
Sometimes it's two parents in an apartment with one or two young kids, right? Or in a house.
00:19:57
Speaker
And oftentimes they don't even have access to a backyard. And the expectations from the firms is that they're going to be running their practice. They're going to be doing their work almost as good as normal, where all of a sudden they have no childcare and they're having to switch off. So I have clients who are having to work crazy schedules where they're, they're backstopping each other. They're working out of their bedroom with the door closed. And then they're having to switch shifts.
00:20:22
Speaker
Whereas with the other parent coming and taking over. And it hasn't just been going on for a month now. It's been going on for months. And at this stage, Michael, I'm starting to see it. It was hard before, but the wear and tear now is becoming really heavy. Yeah. I'm seeing that as well. And that's a really good point you made about having realistic expectations for productivity. That you may not be able to be as productive as you were before COVID.
00:20:51
Speaker
Because of everything you just described and to know that and, and for leaders to know that as well. And that's the dance and that's the terrain that law firms are dealing with right now. And a chunk of those leaders are men who have stay at home wives. It's still like 1950s in some of these firms. And I know because our clients in the situation of stay at home wives.
00:21:14
Speaker
you know, who live in big houses and they're, they're a little bit cut off from what's actually going on. Not all of them, but there are some, right? And it's time to really think about, yeah, the firms are taking an economic hit. That's not pretty. We all got to, you know, do their, do our best. And I think having some, an expectations check on what success really looks like for lawyers in these circumstances and celebrate the success that they do have.
New Mastermind Group for Lawyers
00:21:43
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:21:44
Speaker
celebration and a vision of how they want to be also during these challenging times. What kind of person do I want to be? What kind of lawyer do I want to be? What kind of spouse partner do I want to be? So, Alison, we are bumping up against the end here and I want to just give you an opportunity to share anything you haven't gotten to share before we end our conversation.
00:22:09
Speaker
Well, the thing that I'm really excited about Michael is that I have, I've been really thinking about how I can help these younger lawyers. And it's hard because coaching is expensive and there's always so much of my time to go around. And I know that it's a challenge. So I am creating a mastermind group that I'm launching in October, October 15th for associates all about their own agency.
00:22:30
Speaker
about really empowering them to, from the early days of their practice, to take those steps to grow what will be a thriving practice for them, how to navigate their career, the mindset organization resilience pieces. And I've got this wonderful group of lawyers who are going to be my guest experts. We're going to come in business lawyers, litigators, research lawyers.
00:22:51
Speaker
to share and mentor within that setting. I am so excited. I think I've been trying to think about how I can transform the practice of law for good to steal Clio, the practice management software's motto, but I do love it. And I think this is a way that I can have a greater impact. So Michael, I'm just so excited about
Future Resilience Programs
00:23:08
Speaker
it. And is this group, is it already full?
00:23:11
Speaker
Alison or you're looking for more folks? Um, no, I haven't started putting the word out. I'm going to be sort of doing my marketing launch probably around end of September for my pilot. And I'm excited. I'm very confident that I'll have, I'm aiming for 20 people in that first group. We'll see what happens. Yeah. That sounds fantastic. I'm really curious to hear how that goes. And for the listeners out there too, I'll say one more thing. Alison and I and Bina Stock, who is a former lawyer and a counselor in Vancouver, BC.
00:23:42
Speaker
We've done a couple programs already on resilience, the most recent one called bolstering resilience. And we plan to do more of those programs. So look out and LinkedIn and in your email for as we do more and more of these resilience programs. So Alison, thank you so much for giving us your time.
Closing Remarks
00:24:04
Speaker
It was a super fast.
00:24:06
Speaker
25 minutes, half hour, whatever it's going to end up being, but thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. Oh, Michael, it was just, it's a pleasure being here and please have me back and let's continue the conversation. I would love that. And thank you, Alison. We will see you next week. Bye.
00:24:24
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Thriving Lawyers Podcast. We love hearing from our loyal listeners, so please feel free to email us any questions, comments, suggested topics, or guest recommendations at the following address, feedback at thrivinglawyerspodcast.com.
00:24:40
Speaker
The Thriving Lawyers Podcast is brought to you by Real-Time Creative Learning Experiences, a national provider of continuing legal education and professional development programs that leave participants engaged, encouraged, and equipped to pursue meaningful and sustainable change in their practices, their lives, and the organizations they work in. And by Osborne Conflict Resolution, your experience guides through the uncharted terrain of business and family law disputes based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on The Thriving Lawyers Podcast.