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E128: Mary Flanagan
2.2k Plays4 years ago
Mary had been telling her family that she was going to work as usual, but they later found out that she hadn’t been. So where had she been going? Not only were the family members confused by this news, but now they had an added worry since Mary Flanagan was now missing. What could have happened to her?
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Transcript
Introduction & Sponsor
00:00:00
Speaker
We are excited to announce that this episode is being sponsored by Zencaster, our very own podcast recording platform. So make sure you listen for more information in the middle of the episode and read our show notes to hear exactly why we love Zencaster so much and how you yourself can get a discount.
America's Holiday Fascination
00:00:22
Speaker
Here in the United States, I feel that we take advantage of any opportunity we can to celebrate, decorate, or have a party.
00:00:30
Speaker
In fact, my For You page on TikTok has been littered with people all around the world discussing this very fascination that Americans have. What seems normal to us here in the US may not be the norm in other parts of the world, so this made me wonder why the United States has such an obsession with holidays.
00:00:52
Speaker
So I Googled it and in an article published on December 20th of 2021 by Visa Business Plans called How Immigration Shaped American Holidays, the author wrote, quote, one of the biggest reasons Americans celebrate the holidays they do and the way they do is because of immigration.
00:01:09
Speaker
Immigration has played an enormous role in American holidays, not only shaping how they're celebrated, but also in the very creation of many of the holidays celebrated each year in the United States. Throughout history, immigrants bought various aspects of their culture to the United States as they attempted to keep their traditions from their homeland alive. These traditions occasionally caught on and became more widely practiced in the United States, and many American holidays simply would not exist if it were not for immigration." End quote.
00:01:38
Speaker
St. Patrick's Day, Mardi Gras, and Cinco de Mayo are all readily associated with the various countries these holidays originated in and the immigrants who began celebrating them in the United States.
Immigrant Influences on US Holidays
00:01:49
Speaker
In that same article, it talked about how even Independence Day can be attributed to immigrants saying, quote,
00:01:55
Speaker
Independence Day, celebrating America's independence from British control, came about after the founding fathers signed the Declaration of Independence. Eight of the 56 signers were immigrants while nearly all others were children or grandchildren of immigrants." Many of the traditions associated with American holidays would not be practiced in the United States were it not for immigration.
00:02:17
Speaker
So we really are a melting pot of cultures. I had no idea that many of the things we do during the holiday season came from such a variety of places. So things like Christmas trees came from Germany, Christmas cards from the United Kingdom, Yule logs, mistletoe, Santa Claus, so many on and on that come from immigrants. Even the New Year's Eve tradition of eating pork and sauerkraut for good luck
00:02:43
Speaker
in the New Year came from the European tradition. But we do have our own traditions that vary from our sister nations around the world.
US vs UK New Year's Traditions
00:02:50
Speaker
In the US, it's customary on New Year's Eve to, one, not to go to work, and two, to watch the ball drop at Times Square in New York. And if you're part of my household, you must also watch Dick Clark's New Year's Rocking Eve. But in a quick Google search, I found that traditionally in Britain, it's normal to work that day.
00:03:10
Speaker
And New Year's Eve was made a public holiday there in 1974.
00:03:16
Speaker
Brits may spend Christmas I read with their families and many see New Year's Eve for a time to be with friends. Since the millennium, many cities have put on grand public fireworks displays, typically a countdown to midnight followed by the traditional song and people greeting and embracing each other. Celebrations may go on well into New Year's Day in countries like Great Britain.
Case Introduction: Mary Flanagan
00:03:39
Speaker
And I'll bring this up because today's case focuses on a girl who didn't return home after a company's New Year's Eve party.
00:03:45
Speaker
Sort of. A time for celebrating the new year to come and all the hope it promises was cut short when one family was told she hadn't been to the party that day and she actually hadn't been showing up to work for two weeks. This is the story of Mary Flanagan.
Meet the Hosts of 'Coffee and Cases'
00:04:35
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:04:44
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families with each case. We encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, coffee and cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:05:12
Speaker
Okay, Maggie, let's do our weekly shout outs to our favorite people, our listeners. And y'all I need this because you should see how many markups we have on this intro that I just did. It was a struggle. I've said that before, but this one was probably the worst.
00:05:30
Speaker
Okay, so our first shout out goes to Amanda who reached out to us on Instagram and To our new patreon members Mary and the goddess of chaos and I love that name Life today
00:05:46
Speaker
That's my life all the time. Yeah. We've also gotten a case suggestion this week from Dana, who listens along each week with fellow Kentucky educator Missy and with Cindy, who has the toughest job in the world as a stay at home mom and is also in the process of adopting her fourth child. Wow. No, so this truly is a CNC family and we appreciate all of you so much.
00:06:17
Speaker
And I would like to give a shout out to Merino Guy, who gave us a great five-star review this week as well. Always needed when we need that little thing. Yes, always. And finally, a big bless your heart and thank you to those who have shared Tony Jr's social media post, those who have left us episode reviews on Good Pods, and all of you who are loyal listeners and tuning in each week.
Mary Flanagan's Disappearance
00:06:43
Speaker
So with that said, Maggie, I'm ready to get into the case. Okay. So this case takes us on a crazy ride exploring one of the United Kingdom's longest running missing persons case. Okay. So this one, obviously you said longest running. So I'm guessing this one dates back before even, you know, say sixties or seventies.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yes. So we're in the fifties. OK. And despite the fact that this case is so old, it's one that one I've never heard of and one that had very little information online. Like another one that we really need to cover. Yes. I mean just a handful of articles. No other podcasts besides hours that I could find. OK.
00:07:39
Speaker
And it's one that I think could be solved despite the years that have passed. So Mary was born in London on June the 9th, 1943. She was born into a Catholic family of Irish descent. She had two sisters, Eileen and Brenda, and a brother named Kevin.
00:08:01
Speaker
I just think of Come on Eileen the song. I know. Come on Eileen. They sing while you're talking. Okay. Thanks for that. You're welcome. The family lived at Wallace Road at the time of her disappearance.
00:08:17
Speaker
And like our case from last week, we will have a little Mary and a big Mary when discussing her disappearance because her mom's name was also Mary. Got it. But unlike last week's case, the mom really isn't mentioned a whole lot. So it's not as much to keep up with. Right.
00:08:36
Speaker
She went to Holbrook road secondary school and at the time of her disappearance, she was working at a very large sugar refinery in Silvertown called Tate and Lyle. And she also, she's a busy lady, um, occasionally worked for like an eye doctor type place. And she was also a volunteer with a blind association. Wow. She's busy. Yeah.
00:09:03
Speaker
But during December of 1959, to what her family believed, Mary could really only think about. She was living for the New Year's Eve party that the sugar refinery was throwing. So that's where she's at in her life. OK.
00:09:22
Speaker
Mary was reported to leave home around 1 p.m. that day. Brenda, so her younger sister, who was only eight years old when her sister went missing said, quote, she wished us all a happy new year and she kissed my sister, my brother and I goodbye because she knew we would be in bed when she got home later. My mother and I watched her walk to West Ham station and she turned around and waved goodbye to us. That was the last time I saw Mary. She never came home, end quote.
00:09:51
Speaker
Okay, so I've already got like all kinds of things going through my head and it's probably because in the intro when you said sort of that she hadn't been going to work. So I'm anxious to hear why she was leaving for a work New Year's Eve party if she hadn't been going to work. To work, yeah. Okay, I'm anxious.
00:10:15
Speaker
And I'm hoping that like maybe we can kind of talk through some of those questions because there's not a lot of answers to a lot of questions.
00:10:26
Speaker
It wasn't until the next day that Mary's family realized that she was missing and why would they really have found out any sooner? So they think she's supposed to be at a New Year's Eve party. So they're not expecting her home before they go to bed. It's going to be late. So I'm positive when the family initially woke up that morning, they were under the impression that she was still asleep in bed. But when she fell to make her appearance later that day, that's when they went to check and realized she wasn't home.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yeah. And like you said, I think that's totally a completely normal reaction. You know, not to even check because you'd be like, well, she probably got in after midnight because obviously New Year's Eve, it goes until midnight, right? So she's not getting in and then she would likely sleep in because she was tired. So I get that. Yeah, she's probably not getting home until like three o'clock in the morning or later. So I'm sure they thought she was still in bed.
00:11:21
Speaker
When they found out that she's missing, though, they don't overreact. Mary's family did what I think most families would have done. Mr. and Mrs. Flanagan just hop in the car and go to the Sugar Refinery where Mary worked and where the party was being held to see if anybody knew, like, did she go home with a friend? Were they perhaps all still there? Like, what's going on?
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's a very logical reaction. That's, well, first, I mean, obviously, we're talking about the 50s. So you can't, you know, say, call a cell phone, right, or something that we would do today. So I think their reaction is perfectly normal. That's what I would do and just hope that, you know, you would think if she's just been at a party with all of these people, some of them probably had to work on New Year's Day, because you said in the beginning, in the UK, they do work on New Year's Day. So
00:12:11
Speaker
Obviously, even though they're running on little sleep there would be some people there who probably saw her at the party And depending on what time this family was up for breakfast Like maybe they're like six o'clock breakfast eaters. She very well still could be there Right. I mean that's early in the morning. But if you're a young kid and you're partying that's Probably not really that out of the norm. Mm-hmm
00:12:41
Speaker
But in a curious twist, the family is informed that Mary had actually been absent from work for nearly two weeks. Some things I read said two days, most everything I read said two weeks. And I feel like two weeks makes the most sense to me. Now, I'm not sure if this is like a generational thing or a cultural thing or a
00:13:06
Speaker
time thing but for some reason the bosses at the Sugar Refinery had just assumed that she was sick and that's why she was missing work and that stuck out as odd to me because the world that we live in today would require notice for one to miss work regardless of why you're missing right and I wonder if that wasn't true in 1959 and
00:13:32
Speaker
And, you know, obviously, like you said, it could be a cultural thing too, because I don't know, you know, in London, right, where we're set this week, is that a difference in, you know, in Britain? If you're sick, do you have to let them know? Can you miss work and then, you know, bring in an excuse later? I don't know. I would think it would be the same as here, but I mean,
00:13:58
Speaker
I could be completely wrong, you know? But so this makes me wonder if there's something going on in Mary's life that she didn't want her parents to know about that maybe she needed to take off work to deal with. I don't know. And I kind of think that may be part of it because she's young. She's what, 16 right now? So she's young.
00:14:27
Speaker
secondary school goes from like, I think ages 12 to 16. Yeah, she was born in 1843 and it's not 15. So I feel I'm inclined to say that's maybe what was going on, that something was happening in this 16 year old world that she just didn't feel comfortable talking to her family about and use that as an excuse. We'll talk about that in theories though. Okay.
00:14:54
Speaker
So naturally her family is confused. Mary had been telling them she was going to work, but clearly she wasn't. So where, where had she been going? So now they're not only confused, they're also concerned because where is she? What has she been doing? What has happened to her? What do they do now? I'm wondering if it's a boy.
00:15:17
Speaker
Well, that is part of it. Because I think, you know, those 16 year old boy or girl, those 16 year old hormones kicking in.
00:15:29
Speaker
And I think a lot of 16-year-olds are like, well, I know what I need to do with my life. Yeah, my parents don't know. Right, right. And so they're focused on relationships and things like that. And you're probably easily swayed by a significant other. Agree. That's where I am right now. That's my inference as we tell our students to do. That's my inference on the case.
00:15:58
Speaker
Assertive the local area was made by locals that live there and by the police. An article did run in the newspaper, but most everyone said that she was just, you know, you know, quote unquote, typical teenage runaway. So that's what most people believe. Right.
00:16:20
Speaker
And they said that despite the fact that on police record, a police officer was quoted as saying that Mary was quote, a bright and friendly girl. And that to me doesn't sound like a runaway. Right. Especially a typical one. Right.
00:16:41
Speaker
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00:17:10
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00:17:31
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00:17:49
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00:18:23
Speaker
So Allison, as you can imagine at this point searches have turned up nothing.
Failed Search Efforts
00:18:28
Speaker
The reports that have been ran in the paper have turned up nothing and Mary's family was at this point extremely desperate to find answers.
00:18:37
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I bet the switch from the logical response to complete terror and fear happens so quickly, that shift. You know, when they're like, okay, I'll go to her work and find answers. And then they get there and they start hearing that she hasn't been to work in two weeks.
00:18:58
Speaker
And now all of a sudden your brain is like, well then where has she been going these last two weeks? I don't even know who my child is at all. Where is she? You know, and that terror.
00:19:10
Speaker
And I feel like we have lost a lot with this case over time. Like I wonder how long because a lot of that we know now because, you know, there's more articles published or we have the ability to drive a family or, you know, whatever. And I wonder how long it took for them to realize like,
00:19:33
Speaker
All right something's wrong something is not correct i mean i'm sure like you said they were worried when i found out that she wasn't going to work but i wonder how long it took for those searches to turn into or not just looking for a runaway but you know this is serious she's not coming home where is she right.
00:19:54
Speaker
And in this desperation, they do search the family high and low for every sign of her. But time and time again, they found nothing. The only thing the family thought could lead to any answers was a boy named Tom. I knew there was a boy. I knew it. And just like you guessed, Tom was thought to be Mary's boyfriend.
00:20:22
Speaker
You know, her family's first rationalization was that maybe just maybe she might have eloped with Tom. Oh, yes. But wait a minute. But wait a minute. But she's still living at home because they see her New Year's Eve. Now I will say my grandma
00:20:48
Speaker
told me that when she first got married, I don't know if this was something common here in the States in like around this time or the 30s even. So a little bit before this, because Rodney told me that his grandma did the same thing. When my grandma first got married, they were married and her family didn't know about it. And she was coming home and staying with her family for like the first few weeks.
00:21:16
Speaker
until they got a place. And then she told her family and she went with him. And Rodney's grandma had a similar experience. So I'm wondering, that makes a lot of sense to me. You know, I've never heard that. Yeah, if they did elope and maybe they were looking for a place and since they don't have a place yet, Mary's like, you know what, I'll just, I won't tell my family yet. I'll just go and stay there like normal while we look for a place.
00:21:45
Speaker
And then once we find one, I'll tell them and move out. And when you hear part of the theory that we're going to get to here in a little bit, I want you to remember this conversation. Because I think it will bring up some good discussion. OK.
00:22:05
Speaker
All right, so we think she may have eloped with Tom. It was thought that he too was an Irish immigrant, so just like her family had been. I read in several places he was believed to have been in the Merchant Navy. Do you see how I'm saying all of these
00:22:25
Speaker
like believed to have been. I say this because from what I've read police were never able to find Tom.
The Boyfriend's Mysterious Disappearance
00:22:40
Speaker
I don't know and that'll come up again in theories but this man was said to have been in his early 20s. I read in one place that Mary's sister recalled Mary being upset over an argument that the two had had and Mary had told the sister that she was so upset
00:23:02
Speaker
that she was going to end it with Tom. It was said that they'd been heard arguing using raised voices. Mary was like so upset the morning of the 31st that she couldn't even get out of it. What were they arguing about? So the argument was, so I guess really we can talk about the elopement thing here because the argument was that
00:23:25
Speaker
Tom had told Mary he was living on his own, but Mary had discovered he was actually living with his mother.
00:23:37
Speaker
So if we go back to my conversation, maybe, you know, if she will elope and then we'll move into your place. And then all of a sudden he's like, I don't have one. Yeah. I'm still living at home. So that, you know, therein lies a problem.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah, and when I first read all that I was kind of confused why she would be that mad about it Right if he's in his early 20s now, that's not really strange if you're still living at home in your early 20s Right. So I wondered why as boyfriend and girlfriend she would be that upset But if they had gotten married and they needed a place to stay Mm-hmm, and I could see why she would be mad. Yeah, she's like well, that's no problem You've got your own place. We'll just move in there and then all of a sudden
00:24:25
Speaker
She finds out that's a lie. But if you're 16, I know this is 1959, you can just get married at 16, like without your, my mom got married at 17. And my grandma had a son's permission. Yeah. I don't know. Again, if that's a cultural thing, I'm not sure. But they were just arguing about it the morning of the 31st, so on New Year's Eve. Yep.
00:24:52
Speaker
Hmm. And she was, again, believed to have said she was going to end this relationship. Now, so I'm sure one of the theories is that maybe she does try and he gets mad. It worries me that the police don't know who this Tom is. So it makes me wonder, you know, if he lied about where he was living, did he also lie about about who he was? Yeah. And a lot of people believe that.
00:25:24
Speaker
But we don't really know that for sure. Because we can't find them. Right. The only thing we do know is that they have an argument on the 31st. She leaves home at one to go to work. She's supposed to go to this New Year's Eve party. She doesn't go to the New Year's Eve party. She doesn't come home. She's not been going to work and she's missing. And that's all we know.
00:25:48
Speaker
I wish maybe the sister recalled where if Mary said Tom worked somewhere, because that would probably be the easiest way to somehow track down who it might've been. Or who his mom was. Like, would they not have known that? Right.
00:26:06
Speaker
Mary's case does sit cold for a very, very, very long time. Like I said, we know she and Tom had a fight or whoever Tom is, they have a fight. She says they're going to break up. She goes to work. She doesn't come home. The police reopened her case in 2013. And I want to say not that long ago, but really that was that long ago. That's almost 10 years, which is crazy. That is crazy. Yeah.
00:26:33
Speaker
Well, crazy, but they do reopen her case in 2013 on what would have been her 70th birthday and the Metropolitan Police and the local missing persons unit in Newham reopened the case and investigators describe the case as a quote, complete one off. Does that mean that they think that whoever did it, this is the only crime they've committed?
00:27:00
Speaker
Is that what they mean by that? I'm not 100% sure. I think they mean that in terms of investigation because they have used her case as an example in training about the changes in policy that have been made over the years. So I don't know really what their meaning is there, but I do know
00:27:29
Speaker
because I looked it up, that the way Mary's case would have been investigated in 1959, or let's just say the 1960s, would have been much different than how we would have investigated cases now or even in like the 2000s, right? Because in the 60s, we're going again, I think like Lamb to the Slaughter, right? We're going like door to door. We're taking down notes of who they've talked to. We're talking to those people. Whereas now,
00:27:59
Speaker
we're getting onto people's Instagram accounts, we're looking at their Facebook, we're tracking their cell phone. There's so much more. Yeah, where cell phone pings are happening.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah, who they're talking to, who they're messaging, who they're calling. And they didn't have any of that. Apart from interviewing Mary's family, officers during that time would have relied heavily on that old fashioned policing to find her. So they would have put up posters around the community. They would be speaking to her family and friends, rowing the streets with her picture. You know, have you seen this girl? Right. Now, as I mentioned, you know, we're looking through
00:28:38
Speaker
much more personal things. Right. Yeah, we have much more advanced methods now that we've been able to develop. So I think it's great that her case was reopened because now they can, you know, start looking at those things. Now, unfortunately, with her age,
00:28:57
Speaker
You know, obviously that's going to knock out a lot of people and the people who maybe she had been around that she worked with who were even older than she was. Right. So even up to in their 90s in 2013 are likely not on Facebook, you know, for us to track them down or even have memories that. Would have stood the test of time of time. Yeah.
00:29:27
Speaker
Because I mean, I think about my grandma, she's like 86. So right around this age, and I mean, she still has a fantastic memory, but not everybody her age does, or would be well enough to maybe even be questioned by Felice at that point. Right.
00:29:44
Speaker
Yeah, they might remember, oh, I knew this girl Mary and she turned up missing, but they're not gonna remember details about maybe something that she said in passing the last time that they saw her. Yeah, just like I said, I think time is the biggest enemy here because we're losing so much because of the passage of time. I didn't read really anywhere where anything fantastic happened in the reopening in 2013.
00:30:15
Speaker
Police particularly focused on Tom, which yes, why wouldn't we? And I read that in January of 2017, the missing people commissioned a new age progression image of Mary. So we now have, and I posted it in the case for you, Alison, if you scroll down to the bottom. So we now have a picture of what
00:30:42
Speaker
Mary is believed to have looked like as of 2017. She will be even older now. I know she looks so sweet. I'm telling you her eyes. She's got like this full full-tooth smile, right? Like she's loving life and her eyes just I mean, they're just glowing.
00:31:03
Speaker
And she was beautiful. Oh yeah. And even as an older old lady she's a cutie. Oh yeah. She definitely is. And I think you you nailed it. I think she's most identified by her smile and her like the way her eyes glow. They even capture it in those pictures. Yeah. Even in the age progression. Yeah. So like we mentioned Mary's case
00:31:30
Speaker
has seen, or the world, I guess, has seen so many changes since Mary's case. And like we said, that picture even is just dated to 2017. So she could have changed even more by now. But think about the world back in 1959. So when we think about cases today,
00:31:54
Speaker
When people go missing, we think about DNA, fingerprints, social media, satellite navigation, cell phone towers. Exactly. Yeah, what's caught on camera, you know, all of those things. And at the time Mary went missing, using DNA on cases like hers was something really only thought about in science fiction.
00:32:19
Speaker
Mean we didn't obviously have social media cell phones surveillance cameras. We had none of that and while DNA was a thing It was still being
00:32:32
Speaker
discovered, I guess you could say, because in the 1950s and 60s, DNA was just making, or scientists were just making the discovery of the double helix. They were just making the discoveries of chromosomal abnormalities, things associated with Down syndrome. Few people were thinking that DNA would advance to the way we use it today to investigate cases. Right. Yeah. Cause how would you know it's in its infancy?
00:33:00
Speaker
Right. Like you're not going to say, I bet one day they'll be able to trace her DNA through a family member. But detectives are still searching for clues hidden within those original police files of Mary's disappearance. The next step they say is what you just said, bringing Mary's case to modern investigators to take DNA samples from her family to see if anything would match an identified bodies that remain on police files or see if they can trace something.
The DNA Hope
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah, because for all we know, there could be a Jane Doe in the UK. And because they don't have the DNA, they've never been able to identify. But having familial DNA, they would be or she could have been alive somewhere, you know, potentially eloped, changed her name, moved somewhere, you know, and then I don't know, I think this would be solvable, like you said in the beginning.
00:33:59
Speaker
I wonder if, because I don't know, but let's say Anthony and I move, we run away to Canada and we change our names to something different. And then, so our family thinks we're missing and we decide we want to know where we came from and we start doing like ancestor.com or whatever to trace our family tree. Could we be traced back to who,
00:34:28
Speaker
Like, can that be traceable, you know? So I would think, like, say you did that. Let's say your parents, you know, you're living in Canada and you're living with the last name. I don't know.
00:34:47
Speaker
Smith. Duncan. Yeah. Duncan. There you go. And you do say 23andMe and someone in Iowa has done the same 23andMe test. I would imagine that somehow you could find, you know, familial links and then through them, maybe they know, oh my gosh, my aunt always talked about, you know, a half sister who
00:35:17
Speaker
moved away and was never seen. You must be the child of that half-sister. So I would imagine that there would be ways. See, and that makes me feel like I think we can figure out what happened to Mary. I just really feel like we can. Mm-hmm. And so that brings us to your favorite part. We are gonna talk about some possible theories, and there are around four-ish.
Did Mary Elope with Tom?
00:35:42
Speaker
Okay, ready.
00:35:44
Speaker
So the first is the one we've been talking about that she eloped and ran away according to an online source called Mary Flanagan June 1943 missing December 31st 1959 Mary never worn engagement ring. She never made a formal announcement of her engagement.
00:36:03
Speaker
but there are many who believed she was engaged and were married to Tom. Going back to my grandma, I believe that that's possible. Now I think that that's possible. So we know he was another immigrant. He may have worked in the merchant Navy. There are also reports that the dad, Mary's dad introduced Tom and Mary, which again, if that happened, why can't we find this dude?
00:36:33
Speaker
That changes a lot for me. I'm going to say that that's likely not true because he would have tracked this guy down. He would have been like, well, here are my 25 other buddies who also know him. So somebody has to know where he is. So I don't know if I believe that claim. Right. And most sources, and again, there's not a lot that I read, say that there was no record of this Tom in the merchant Navy. But do you remember Brenda's last memory
00:37:04
Speaker
supposedly of Tom and Mary. Yes, that they were arguing because she thought he lived on his own, but he actually still lived at home. Yeah. And my question would be, as I said, who is his mommy?
00:37:17
Speaker
Was she ever questioned? I would think that Mary's family knew where he was supposed to reside and that they could have said, Tom lives on 12th Street. And they could have found that. Yeah, because if they were, if they, if the family at least knew that Mary was dating Tom, then yeah, I would think that they would know the general vicinity of where he lived and be able to go to that neighborhood.
00:37:45
Speaker
I wonder if maybe that's just something that was lost again with the passage of time. Brenda said that Mary was so upset about Tom lying that she was going to break up with him. This breakup caused the big fight. It caused a fight with her dad. She went to bed crying. She was so upset she slept in the night of the 31st. Even though police found no record of Tom,
00:38:06
Speaker
we know some man existed whether he was called tom or he existed under another name right we know she had a boyfriend i don't think all of these people her sisters and everyone would be recalling her dating or talking to a boy exactly and maybe she didn't want them to know who he was so she called him tom but that really wasn't his name it could be like if he and i know again
00:38:35
Speaker
generational difference. It wasn't necessarily as I don't want to say odd because it's not odd but the age difference between them because you said yeah 16 and he's in his 20s we don't really know how old but again like my grandma she was young and my grandpa was I think nine years older
00:39:03
Speaker
Yeah, I'm pretty positive that my mammy got married at 14 or 15 and my puppy was like 16 or no, it was like 19. Right. Yeah. But if my little sleuth hound were 16 and she wanted to date somebody who was 25, I'd be like, no. No, that's illegal. Right. So it could be, especially if he was in his mid to late 20s. I mean, maybe she thought that they would look down on it. And so
00:39:34
Speaker
She did kind of change some details about who he is. Which it makes maybe, but then if he wasn't that we can't find Tom, it makes me wonder, which I bring this up in another theory. It makes me wonder, are we also missing a boy from that same time period?
00:40:00
Speaker
And could that somehow be related? Especially, I mean, you would think if he's missing and he was living with his mom, then there should be another missing persons report.
00:40:12
Speaker
Right. And I bring that up in theory three because there's a little bit more behind that. Most of Mary's family, her sister, Brenda believes this is what happened. She thinks that she just eloped and they started a new life. She thinks that kiss goodbye on her last day at home wasn't just, you know, I'm going to work. See you later. But was, you know, I'm leaving. I love you. Goodbye. I have to say, um,
00:40:42
Speaker
I'm pretty confident in this theory unless you change my mind. I agree with you and I don't know that I'm going to change your mind, but maybe we'll see. Okay. Okay. Theory number two is that she just ran away. So the simple teenage runaway, and I say simple, even though we know there's nothing simple about a teen running away, but in this case, this is probably the most simple theory, sort of.
00:41:09
Speaker
We do know that for some time Mary was pretending to go to work every day. She was coming home as if everything was totally fine, but the fact of the matter was she wasn't going to work and hadn't been for two weeks and there was no explanation as to why. Unless the elopement. Correct.
00:41:28
Speaker
The author of defrosting cold cases made a good point in her coverage on Mary's case. She pointed out, quote, this company was the Tate and Lill sugar refinery in Silvertown. It was described as a large company. So I gather that it had a, it had a finance and accounting department. Have we checked how Mary was paid daily, weekly, monthly? If she was a day worker, I can imagine less concern, but if she was on a weekly or monthly payroll, someone should have noticed that the numbers didn't add up in the boat.
00:41:57
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. So then, right. Right. I couldn't imagine. That's random, but I have no money. Oh yeah, I'd be gone. Yeah. But if she was paid daily, you know, I think then we can, as this person pointed out,
00:42:24
Speaker
kind of push under the rug that she hadn't been to work in two weeks. I think it would be less noticeable. Whereas if she was paid weekly or monthly, then I think there would be a bigger difference when they're doing their payroll. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I just think her just up and running away just doesn't make sense. Yep. Just saying. Of her own accord? No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:42:49
Speaker
Theory three is that she was pregnant and was a runaway. Interesting. Okay. And there are many who believe that Mary may have been pregnant and decided that it was best to run away. And I think this could make sense as well. Some even would go to say that the child wasn't Tom's, whoever Tom is. I don't think that really plays a big part in this theory.
00:43:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I mean, I know this was a very different time in society and being a potentially unwed Young lady was more frowned upon then than it is today. Mm-hmm But I feel that this theory would either be easily proven or disproven because if she's running away with the dude that she's pregnant by and
00:43:41
Speaker
So Tom or whoever. Then as we said, there should be another missing person report. Yep. So if Mary were pregnant, did any males from her school where she worked, the people she hung out with, did any of them disappear? Did any male from the area at all disappear at the same time? Could they have ran away together?
00:44:04
Speaker
Hmm. And I mean, again, like you said, in this time period, I mean, we go back to around this time period, even in the States, and if a teenager were pregnant and unwed, that was very common to go off. So you're not in school, so people don't know that you're pregnant. And so she could have left and then, you know, potentially something happened to her while she was away or even in childbirth.
00:44:34
Speaker
I hadn't thought of that. Something happened and then you know now she never returns. And I do think that would the pregnancy idea I think could explain the missing work as well. Because again maybe she just doesn't want people to know so she just isn't coming to work. Well in early pregnancy you can be very nauseous.
00:45:02
Speaker
So I think it does hold some merit. The thing that makes me ponder about any of the runaway theories is that Mary, we can assume took nothing with her. We have no reports of missing clothes, missing money, no disheveled room, nothing. So unless Mary took money with her, you know, just in whatever she was carrying that day to work and then out of that party or she met someone along the way, we can assume that she had to leave without anything. No offense.
00:45:30
Speaker
And I don't think she would get very far if that were the case. Unless Tom had money. That's what I'm saying. If she ran away, I think there has to be another individual. She had to be with someone. She didn't do it by herself. And you know, if this theory is true and she were pregnant, then maybe she's thinking, well, like,
00:45:49
Speaker
I don't really need to take many of my clothes because they're not gonna fit anyway so it really could be a combination of many of these maybe they she figured out she was pregnant they eloped and they ran away just to kind of avoid all of that right where they eloped she got pregnant and they ran away.
00:46:08
Speaker
Right. Or, or she got mad at him for not having his own place, like he said, and he says, you know what, let's just go away. You know, we'll start our new life someplace else. Yeah. Like she says we're breaking up. He said, no, we'll move away. We'll start a new life. Um, theory for while not typically supported.
Foul Play Speculation
00:46:30
Speaker
would be the idea of foul play. I think that's the case. Anytime we don't know what's happened to somebody. Right. I wonder here if Mary had broken up with Tom or threatened to, could this have motivated something more sinister in this Tom person, as you talked about earlier? Yeah, because that's what I was thinking. I was thinking, you know, if she said, all right, well, I'm through and, you know,
00:46:59
Speaker
if she, if there is another boy or she says, you know what, I'll just, he sees her out with somebody else. I mean, anything could have happened, but I, I just feel like Tom has something to do with something. Yeah. And the fact that we really don't know this Tom guy freaks me out a little bit. Like who is this dude? Right.
00:47:27
Speaker
If we believe that Mary's dad introduced them, we must know who he is, right? Well, that's why I don't necessarily believe that theory. Yeah. I don't know, Allison, there's so much about this case that doesn't make sense and we have so little to really go on, but what are your final thoughts on what happened to Mary Flanagan? Okay. So,
00:47:53
Speaker
I can understand the theory of pregnancy, but regardless of whether that is true or not, I feel that
00:48:05
Speaker
if she went from being so upset in this argument on the phone with Tom, as Mary's sister said, to the kind of happy goodbye that happened the next day, like her sister says she felt like that final, you know, wave goodbye and last kiss.
00:48:23
Speaker
Was had some finality to it. It wasn't just I'll see you later on Then I feel like if she were still upset they would have sensed that especially her sister who knew about the argument which makes me wonder if maybe Something was settled
00:48:41
Speaker
But I do feel like an elopement is a very good possibility and that she could be out there somewhere having lived with a different name or that something maybe happened to her because I feel like she would have eventually gotten back in touch with her family. So part of me wonders if in this new start of a life
00:49:11
Speaker
something tragic happened and that's why she never got back in touch. Mary's family has never given up hope. They think she's out there somewhere. As her story gets older and older, there's little we can do besides talk about Mary and continue to share her story. Mary's sister Brenda said quote, my brother Kevin, my sister Eileen and I have never stopped looking for our sister. Although there was a police investigation at the time, nothing was ever found.
00:49:40
Speaker
We've done a lot of research and tried every possible avenue ourselves, from the Salvation Army to family history centers, but we have never discovered what happened to her." Maybe it isn't too late to find out what happened to her, Sleuth Hounds. Here at Coffee and Cases, we urge you to keep sharing her story and keep searching for answers. If you have any information about Mary, please reach out to the Newham Police Missing Persons Unit in the UK at 02-8.
00:50:08
Speaker
08-217-5728 and Mary's reference number is 94-000632.
00:50:22
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
00:50:52
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.
00:51:15
Speaker
The previous episode was created using Zencaster. Use the coupon code linked in our show notes to start podcasting today for free.
00:51:25
Speaker
We would also like to give you a podcast recommendation if you've binged all of our episodes here at Coffee and Cases. Kristen Seavey is the host of Murder She Told, and her cases are in-depth and intriguing. Kristen focuses on cases in Maine and New England. Her show has original interviews and is presented in a detailed documentary style of storytelling. She brings light to cult cases, missing persons, and crime stories that often get overlooked, much like we do.
00:51:51
Speaker
She's rooted in deep research, straightforward narration, and putting the families and victims first. So, sleuth hounds, if you like cases with a mysterious twist, check out Murder She Told to see what all the fuss is about. We'll think you like it. Here's a little bit about the show from Kristen herself.
00:52:08
Speaker
Growing up as a latchkey kid in a small town in Maine, I always assumed I was safe. After all, unless it makes national news, murder isn't something people talk about around here. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Murder, She Told is a true crime podcast featuring crime stories, unsolved murders of missing persons, and baffling cold cases from my home state of Maine, New England, and small towns across America.
00:52:32
Speaker
These are the crime stories your hometown doesn't want to talk about. The mysteries buried deep in the newspaper archives of local American history. These are the homicides you've probably never heard of before. Through detailed storytelling and connections with family, friends, and investigators closest to the case, Murder She Told will hit home for any true crime fan, whether you're from Maine or from away. Visit murdershetold.com to suggest your hometown crime story. And subscribe now wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
00:53:03
Speaker
I'm Kristin Seavey and this is Murder, She Told.