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153. Succeeding in Dating and Marriage & Raising Mentally Strong Kids | Amy Morin, LCSW
8 Plays1 year ago
Amy Morin is a psychotherapist, mental strength trainer and an international bestselling author. Her books in the 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do series have sold more than 1 million copies and been translated into more than 40 languages. She's the award-winning host of the Mentally Stronger podcast and she gave one of the most popular TEDx talks of all time. The Guardian dubbed her the "self-help guru of the moment" and Forbes refers to her as "a thought leadership star.
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Transcript
Introduction to Medicine Redefined
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to Medicine Redefined, a podcast focusing on helping you reclaim ownership of your health. I'm Dr. Darshah. And I'm Dr. Altima Sharaja. We're your hosts, here to challenge conventional practices and uncover the stories behind pioneers shaping the future of medicine. Our conversations not only focus on the individual level to dissect common practices for health optimization, but also zoom out to enhance systemic change. Join us as we look to break the status quo, move the needle forward, and put the help back in healthcare.
Featuring Amy Morin: Mental Strength Expert
00:00:38
Speaker
We have a really exciting episode today with psychotherapist Amy Morin. She is a mental strength trainer and international bestselling author. Her books in the 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do series have sold more than 1 million copies and been translated into more than 40 languages.
00:00:55
Speaker
Amy is an award-winning host of the Mentally Stronger podcast and she gave one of the most popular TED Talks of all time, which you can find in the show notes. The Guardian has dubbed her as the self-help guru of the moment and Forbes has referred to her as a thought leadership star.
Mental Strength in Personal Life
00:01:11
Speaker
In this episode, we are going to delve into the depths of successful dating and marriages. In the last 160 episodes that we've done, we have not yet really talked about how marriage and dating can really propel us and bring us happiness and joy and tend to leave towards longevity and better health span.
00:01:31
Speaker
We'll also round out our discussion talking about how to raise children so that they can be mentally strong. Throughout this episode, you guys will learn about the theme about being mentally strong in almost everything that we do. Amy is definitely one of the most knowledgeable people that I've talked to in this realm, and so I believe you guys are going to be definitely learning a lot. Hey, everyone.
Launching the Medicine Redefined Newsletter
00:01:53
Speaker
Real quick, we are excited to share that we launched our newsletter. It contains high yield insights from our guests and tips and tricks from us.
00:02:00
Speaker
We want to put the health back in healthcare and invite you to do the same by giving you the necessary information to live your best lives and provide value to those around you. Make sure to head to medicineredefined.com where you can input your email and stay up to date. Okay, time for the episode.
Amy's Personal Experiences with Loss and Grief
00:02:15
Speaker
Amy Morin, thank you so much for coming onto the show. Thank you so much for having me.
00:02:20
Speaker
It's our pleasure. I really wanted to start this conversation maybe somewhat of a dark place for you, right? Being in your early twenties, you had lost a couple of family members very close to you. And I was curious, you know, being at that young of an age when you go through something like that, one, what were the things that you learned about in terms of being mentally strong? And two, how did those events shape your career and the things that you talked about today?
00:02:49
Speaker
Oh, good question. So I was a new therapist. I was 23 when my mom passed away and she had a brain aneurysm. So she was here one minute and essentially gone the next. And then I was 26. It was three years to the day that my mom died that my 26 year old husband died of a heart attack. So similar to the way I lost my mom, I lost him in an instant as well.
Societal Misconceptions about Mental Strength
00:03:10
Speaker
And even though I was a therapist, there was a lot I didn't know about grief, I have to say. And it certainly gave me a new perspective about what it meant to be strong and also what other people interpreted as strong. So for instance, I remember a woman asking me or having a conversation with me one day and she said something about, it's clear you're getting stronger because you can talk about things and you don't look like you're about to tear up.
00:03:37
Speaker
But like not crying isn't a sign of mental strength at all like in fact the ability to show emotions can be an incredible sign of mental strength. And I just remember like people would applaud me for the days that I would do something and they were like that's amazing you can get up and go do that. Well it wasn't like I felt like doing things but I didn't really have a choice and I you know I had to go back to work and I had to do things but
00:04:01
Speaker
That's, I think, a huge misconception in society about mental strength is people get applauded for pushing through any kind of pain or for looking like they bounce back. And people would also say things like, well, you don't look like a widow. Like, I was 26. What was I supposed to look like? And so I think we have these different misconceptions about people and how they look when they're grieving and what it looks like to go through tough times.
00:04:25
Speaker
And I think sometimes it comes across as insulting when we say to people like you're so strong and somebody feels like they're just barely hanging on in life. But because they showed up at work, not because they wanted to, but because they felt like they had to. And then we applaud them for it almost in a way as if we're implying like you're acting tough and that's something to be applauded for.
Impact of Personal Experiences on Amy's Career
00:04:45
Speaker
And it certainly changed my career to get to the other part of your question in a lot of different ways. Because for one, it just gave me a new empathy, I think, for clients in my therapy office. And it taught me a lot about mental strength in general. And one of the things I had learned early on from my clients was it wasn't always what people did. Sometimes what was super important was what they didn't do. People who came to therapy and they didn't have certain bad habits.
00:05:11
Speaker
tended to go through tough times, and they were still hopeful and optimistic and relatively healthy people. And other people just felt stuck when they went through hard times. And, and so I learned a lot about mental strength from a, from a completely different perspective, though, when I went through it myself. And I just thought, in college, I was taught to build on people's strengths. But I realized, if I didn't tell people, Hey, just don't do this thing, then I'd be doing them a disservice. And
00:05:39
Speaker
It also just changed the entire trajectory of my career because. A few years after my husband had passed away I was fortunate enough to find love again I got married I got a house and I had a new job and my father-in-law was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And I just was in a really dark place thinking this isn't fair and I wrote myself a letter of what mentally strong people don't do.
00:06:02
Speaker
I thought it would be read by about five people, but 50 million people read the list and I got a book deal. And now 10 years later, I still get to speak about mental strength because I shared those lessons that I had learned and I didn't give the backstory of why I wrote the list. So when it first went viral, people assumed it was because I had mastered all of these things and they didn't know, no, I actually struggle with all of these things as well.
Cultural Perceptions of Mental Toughness
00:06:24
Speaker
I mean, where does that concept of hiding your true emotions and maybe avoiding talking about your feelings
00:06:34
Speaker
and that exemplifying strength. I mean, I think for a long time, it's particularly with males and just men in general would just say, hey, rub some dirt on it, right? Don't talk about your feelings. And it's getting better today with mental health being recognized as more and more important and how it's entangled into your cognitive health and your physical health and whatnot. But do we have a sense of at what point do we decide that that was quote unquote strength?
00:07:01
Speaker
The idea, I think, of mental toughness came out where we saw a lot of Navy SEALs and people who were elite athletes, and they could push through pain no matter what. And I think that became the epitome of what it looks like to be tough. And people translated that to strength and thinking in emotional pain. If you can bounce back and get back up every time you get pushed down and pretend like you don't feel hurt, then somehow that was admirable.
00:07:28
Speaker
And the notion of post-traumatic growth. Yes, people absolutely do go through tough times and grow because of it. And we know other people end up traumatized when they go through tough times. But the idea that some people grow and become better put pressure on some people to then say, no, I'm good. And when they get pushed down, they would say, no, I'm even better than before. And it was like, you just went through a tragedy two weeks ago, and yet you're already like, I've grown so much from this.
00:07:55
Speaker
because the idea of saying I'm actually struggling felt like a weakness and over time I do think that it's starting to shift that we realize yeah asking for help or acknowledging that you're struggling or being able to talk about feelings takes way more courage than saying no I don't care but I think we still have a long way to go with that as well.
Avoiding Bad Habits for Mental Well-being
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny how you recognize how sometimes we're so unsophisticated, because if we can't see that toughness, right, if it's not manifested in somebody's physique, or somebody who has an anonymous body, or somebody who can do all the things that the Navy SEALs require, whether it's elite athletes, that that person might not be tough. We're recognizing in the field of pain science now, as we appreciate the biopsychosocial model, is that
00:08:42
Speaker
You know, you could try to address the structural as much as you possibly want. And sometimes people will have no structural pathology on imaging and all the stuff that we do, yet they are suffering deeply, deeply suffering. I'm not even just talking about pain, which we know is inevitable, but suffering isn't. And you have the flip side of it where people have all kinds of things structurally wrong with them, yet they have nothing. And
00:09:05
Speaker
We're only starting to scratch the surface on that. And so I think it's so important for us to go down this path when I'm excited to continue this conversation with you. I'm curious, though, you mentioned that once you went through that later adversity, you sat down and you wrote down about 13 things that mentally strong people don't do. And that is interesting to me because I sit down and I'm like, OK, well, what would a mentally strong person do in this moment? You decided to go the other way.
00:09:35
Speaker
Why do you think that is? Two reasons. One was, again, when I was studying people in my therapy office, it was what people didn't do. Because sometimes people would come in and they would have 800 amazing habits. But then they would have one bad habit that was keeping them stuck. And if I were to talk about mental strength in the same way we talk about physical strength, it makes more sense to us. So if I went to the gym and I had a trainer and they told me to run on the treadmill and lift weights, great, I'll do it.
00:10:03
Speaker
But I'd be really upset if they didn't tell me that going home and eating a whole bunch of junk food is really out doing a lot of the work I did in the gym. If you want your good habits to be effective, you got to get rid of your bad habits. And as a therapist, I was seeing so many people come in and they would say, you know, I'm doing all of these things and how come I don't feel better? And it was often because they had one or two things that was just holding them back. So I had learned that from the people in my office.
00:10:27
Speaker
But the day that I wrote that letter, it wasn't, again, I didn't intend to make it a book or anything like that, but it was a letter to myself because when I was struggling the most in life, the last thing I wanted was a long to-do list of, hey, Amy, do these things today and you'll be okay. It would have felt way too overwhelming, but what I could do is say, just don't do this list today and you'll be okay.
00:10:47
Speaker
somehow that felt a lot more manageable than having more things to do. I felt like I already had so many things to do that I wouldn't have been able to keep up with a longer to-do list. But if I just said, don't do these things, that felt like something I could wake up and accomplish today.
Handling Grief and Processing Emotions
00:11:03
Speaker
To dovetail on that, when it comes to suffering, do you think that people
00:11:08
Speaker
hold on to the bad habits and that overpowers maybe what they should be doing, right? Because you also wrote this quote saying that it's not necessarily, and I'll paraphrase here, but it's not necessarily that time heals, but it's what you do in that time that can heal through that suffering and the grievance. So I was just curious about thinking about the bad versus the good, because reading your books too, I see a balance of both, but I'm just curious as far as how people can really think about something after struggling.
00:11:36
Speaker
Yeah, as a therapist, I was seeing people that would come into my office, and maybe it was 10 years ago that they went through something tough, and they were so frustrated because they were like, time's supposed to heal, and I don't feel any better. Why is that? And I had to be the bearer of bad news that says, well, you've spent 10 years trying to avoid the pain, and because of that, you haven't actually started to heal yet.
00:11:58
Speaker
just like with our physical wounds. Some of them get better on their own, but some of them you have to go see a doctor. Sometimes when you ignore them, they get worse instead of better. And if you don't tend to them at all, then sometimes we keep making things worse. Well, that was happening with a lot of people's emotional wounds that they were
00:12:13
Speaker
doing things to feel okay right in the moment, but they weren't doing the things that they needed to to heal long-term. And I wanted people to understand that grief is the process by which we heal. And it's not just grief when you lose a loved one, but it's grief when you get an injury and you aren't going to live the life you thought you were going to, or when you change jobs and you're kind of sad about the life you left behind, or you moved to a new city, all of those things.
00:12:39
Speaker
we have to do some work to heal.
Understanding and Validating Trauma
00:12:41
Speaker
And part of that is allowing ourselves to be sad and allowing ourselves to go through those emotions. But again, it goes back to our desire to sometimes try to avoid those feelings or to make ourselves numb to them so that we don't have to face them head on.
00:12:56
Speaker
Amy, you mentioned just how grief touches ours in so many different ways. I'm thinking about something that I've heard Paul Conti talk about. We have the big T trauma, little T trauma. The big T trauma are those devastating events that people would truly consider PTSD, war.
00:13:13
Speaker
something devastating happened, some type of sexual assault when you were at some point in your life, things of that nature, that everybody would recognize that, hey, there's something wrong here. And somebody is coping with a difficult part.
00:13:28
Speaker
But then little t trauma are these just little hits to the system that you accumulate over time and they can still manifest as something greater down the road if you don't address it. And so I'm thinking about big grief, little grief in that sense. Obviously the example that you've shared losing your mother, your husband.
00:13:44
Speaker
big grief. Everybody understands that. But I think about the athlete, a 29-year-old that I saw earlier this week who was training for the marathon, or half marathon in June, and now all of a sudden she might have a stress fracture and now she's in a boot and she can't run. And running is so incredibly important to her for a host of other issues, but also from the mental health. That's her main way to cope. So that being taken away and how that caused a dysfunction,
00:14:09
Speaker
I'm wondering if you've thought about that aspect akin to how he described big T trauma, little T trauma, and what that manifests down the road, or if that's been spoken about in just psychotherapy in general.
00:14:22
Speaker
It is, you know, because the word trauma is used strangely. Like sometimes people will say like, you know, my boss called me into their office and I was traumatized to have this conversation. They don't really mean they were traumatized the way somebody who faced a life or death experience was traumatized. But we're realizing slowly over time that the things that do create trauma, they don't necessarily have to be those absolute life or death things. I mean, during 9-11, we realized for the first time
00:14:51
Speaker
By watching that on TV, people were experiencing trauma. It wasn't that you actually had to be in the building to say that you had experienced trauma. You can witness it from afar. And of course, in the ages of social media and the internet, we get to see all these traumatic things almost all the time, and it still takes an impact on us.
00:15:11
Speaker
And then there are those smaller things that do make an impact, just like if you lost your job, or you lost a dream, or a hope that you had, or a relationship ends, but maybe it wasn't because of a death, but it was a long-term relationship that ended, or those sorts of things. And sometimes people feel bad, or they feel guilty, or they think I shouldn't be so upset by this, or other people minimize it too, like it was just a dog.
00:15:37
Speaker
People who have lost a pet can experience incredible grief and then it gets compounded because people don't seem to be as understanding or they aren't as kind to them as they might be if they had lost a sibling.
00:15:52
Speaker
And because of that, I think people are embarrassed when they experience grief and trauma related to things that would typically not be, quote unquote, traumatic. And so then they suffer in silence because they don't talk about it, or other people minimize it, or somebody says, well, you know, at least you didn't lose a leg, or at least you didn't do this, or there's people on the other side of the planet who are struggling with problems way bigger than that, which again, is invalidating.
00:16:18
Speaker
my hope is we'll get to that place where we can realize like if somebody had this dream to become a athlete and suddenly they realize that's not going to happen like yes that is very difficult for this person and we don't have to put them down or two people get in the same accident and one person walks away and experiences trauma because of it and the other person doesn't it doesn't mean that this person who did is is weak it means their experience was different and they are struggling with it in a different way than the other person is
00:16:47
Speaker
So my hope is we'll get to that place where we don't look at that as a weakness. Instead, we encourage people to talk about it and to work on healing from it rather than feeling like they should be guilty or that they need to minimize their pain because it wasn't a big enough experience that they feel like they can justify saying, yeah, this is a struggle for me.
Dating and Marriage in Modern Society
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's the perfect transition to kind of talking about the topics of dating and marriages, right? I think a lot of us when we are in a relationship have our own trauma that we might bring out and express it onto the other person or even when we're in the relationship experience different traumas or maybe act out due to the fear of trauma, right? So I appreciate that foundation. I think it's a great framework to kind of talk about social connection dating and marriages. So
00:17:31
Speaker
I don't know about you guys, but I look around and I think about dating and marriages today and it's kind of shocking at least because I was luckily, and I think ultimately you too, we get, we're dating right before apps came out, like Tinder and things, right? And so a lot of my friends right now have definitely been struggling as far as trying to find a partner and as they get older or trying to settle down. So in your,
00:17:54
Speaker
In your opinion, Amy, why is it worth having this discussion to talk about dating marriages in today's age? Oh, yeah. Great question. So we know from the research, people are more lonely than they ever have been. The world is changing and people's ideas about relationships are shifting as well. And as you say, people are meeting on dating apps where they find that people are describing themselves. So it used to be you go on a first date and you meet somebody and
00:18:22
Speaker
and you observe them more and to learn about them through observation. Now you're reading somebody's bio but it's a bio that they've written so nobody puts the bad stuff in their bio. You put like the person you wish you could be or your perception of who you are which might not be
00:18:38
Speaker
what the other person how they're going to perceive you so there's so many strange things in the world and you add in the fact that we just came out of the pandemic that changed i think a lot of people's views on on dating and relationships and and there's so much so many unhealed wounds and when you put two people together and they are each experiencing as you say perhaps unhealed wounds or childhood trauma that hasn't been dealt with and and it's no wonder that so many relationships are struggling
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's dive a little bit deeper in terms of the digital dating world that we live in now. So Tinder probably came on the map first and now we have things like Bumble hinge, and then even you can break it up into different ethnicities and sex. So we're seeing everything and everyone almost on these dating apps. And I feel that people are almost forced to be on these dating apps because they find it a struggle to just meet people at a bar, let's say, or, you know, any type of event.
00:19:31
Speaker
Based off your experiences, what are some of those struggles that you're seeing people go through, especially from a younger generation, I guess? Yeah. So I have a lot of people that will come into my therapy office and they kind of have a checklist of what they're looking for. So then they get on dating apps and they're looking to see who meets that checklist. But again, just because somebody describes themselves as reliable and loyal and dependable,
00:19:55
Speaker
It doesn't mean that actually who they are. And so I'm encountering a lot of people who are struggling with that. They're like, you know, the person described themselves as this, and it might be that the person really thinks that they are. And people come into my therapy office all the time and they say like, I'm a really honest person. And then several sentences later, they're like, well, I cheated on my taxes last year, but that doesn't mean I'm dishonest.
00:20:17
Speaker
So the way people see themselves and the way they describe themselves in an app, again, may not be realistic, but because they put those words down on the computer screen or on their smartphone, somebody reads it and they're like, oh, this person said they were loyal and dependable, so I'm going to go with that.
00:20:33
Speaker
And then their behavior doesn't necessarily line up. Or the other thing I'm hearing a lot of people say is like, they're getting dating fatigue. Like I am just exhausted from going on first dates over and over and over again. And because now it feels like there are so many options.
Challenges in Digital Dating
00:20:49
Speaker
Sometimes people are like the grass is always greener so they don't stick with somebody because they're still kind of on the dating app and they're like well this person looks fun and because of that they're struggling more with making a commitment or they really make a commitment but then they find out the other person is still on a dating app six months later so they're like wait what are you doing and and there's some research behind that too that.
00:21:12
Speaker
Thinking that there are like a lot of alternative options can make it much more difficult to settle down with somebody. It used to be, you know, you might meet somebody through mutual friends or you might've met somebody, as you say, at a bar, at some sort of social gathering. And it wasn't like you thought there were 800 other options within a two mile radius of where you live. Now people are like, no, look, there's still all of these other options out there. And that's definitely making it more difficult for people to create a commitment.
00:21:41
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
Generational Views on Love and Marriage
00:21:42
Speaker
I think one of the things I think about often is Dunbar's number, which I believe is 150. And for those who want to understand what that is, it's you have up to 150 acquaintances or close friends that you can have at one time. Right. And now we're seeing social media where you're following, I don't know, 2,000, 3,000, 5,000 people. And you feel like you're an acquaintance with everyone, but in reality, you're not close to any of them. Right. And I think that's what these dating apps also do is like you said, there's too many options. And so I've been watching Indian matchmaker on
00:22:11
Speaker
Netflix. I don't know if you've seen it, Amy, but it's an interesting show. It's very engaging because it's a matchmaker from India who comes from the generational arranged marriage background that India usually has and comes over to the US and tries to match people of our age in their 20s and 30s.
00:22:29
Speaker
And these generational differences are just so wide. I mean, I look at my parents who were in arranged marriage. And after reading her book, you start to see kind of that the data shows that when you're in an arranged marriage, you have to kind of fight for that love, right? You have to fight to make it work. Whereas when you have that free love marriage, you kind of think that, oh, everything is going to be, you know, dandy, and you don't really have to do anything until reality kicks in.
00:22:53
Speaker
So what have you kind of seen in terms of that shift generationally? You talk about a checklist, and one of the things that the matchmaker talks about is that you'll never get 100% of what you're looking at when you look at the person across from you. But if you hit 50 to 60%, it's worth fighting for and worth trying at least to go on that second or third date. Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
00:23:19
Speaker
There's that idea, I think, that you should feel this passionate love all the time and that if it starts to get hard, people are really quick to give up on relationships these days to say, well, you know, it didn't work out or I had a gut feeling and it just didn't work out. And of course, electronic communication has made things
00:23:37
Speaker
uh extra difficult and for several reasons one would be uh people are getting you know text messages from their ex easily on social media or they're still having lots of people that communicate with them over their phones and then also how do you communicate with your partner via text some people are like no i like to text all day long and their partner's like i don't have time for that and then it creates tension and and problems in the relationship so
00:24:03
Speaker
Certainly, technology has has become an issue, I think, for people. But then also it's about just the emotional aspect of how hard do you want to work for it? And if you think there's an easy out, sometimes people are quick to say, I'm going to jump ship because it felt uncomfortable and I don't really want to stick in there.
00:24:21
Speaker
So I know you are a psychotherapist, but do you have any dating tips for people like that are on these apps that are really serious about trying to find someone? But I mean, let's be honest, I feel like some of these apps have control over us than we do over the apps. Yeah, they certainly do. And I think for people to know, like,
00:24:41
Speaker
It's great when you can meet with people in person, you know, again, assess their behavior, not just the words that come out of their mouth. And don't worry about asking deeper questions. You know, it's great to know what somebody's favorite color is or what their favorite food is, but
00:24:56
Speaker
Ask the deeper questions and you don't have to dive in and ask somebody if they want children on the first date, but you can ask deeper questions just about what somebody's hopes and dreams and goals and things that they're really interested in and to try to take it to a deeper level so you can figure out, is this somebody I would be compatible with?
Three C's of Successful Relationships
00:25:13
Speaker
And we know you really need a couple of things for a successful relationship to even get off the ground. And one is chemistry. So a lot of people say, I meet somebody, there's instant chemistry, and then we go from there. But they don't really look at another one, which is compatibility. You need to know, is this person compatible with you or not? Do they have a lifestyle that would fit with yours? Do they have similar values? And that one gets skipped over a lot. And then the third C is commitment, which is
00:25:37
Speaker
Yeah, how committed do you want to be? And sometimes couples don't have that conversation or they decide they're in a committed relationship, yet one person isn't around very often. So then you look at their behavior, like how committed are they to the relationship? But those are the three ingredients that we need to really kick off a relationship and people need to be on the same page about that. But you won't really know until you dive into some of the deeper questions.
00:26:01
Speaker
At the risk of making this show to matchmaker like Amy, how would you define chemistry? Because I think people have a vague idea from watching movies what that might mean. But I'm curious what your definition is. Oh, yeah. So, you know, the thing about like love and relationships is it's like part art, part science. And there's still like a little bit of magic to it. So when it comes to that chemistry thing, it's it's difficult to describe, but it's more of a feeling, the emotional like you think that you
00:26:31
Speaker
have been with somebody forever, even though perhaps you just met. It's really easy to talk to them. You don't have all that social awkwardness that maybe you do on a normal first date. And you find them physically attractive, of course. And it's that spark. And we know that in the early days of a relationship, when people have intense chemistry,
00:26:49
Speaker
It's actually very similar to the manic phase of bipolar, where people are like, I don't need to sleep. My appetite goes down. I'm so happy. And they struggle to function sometimes. Well, we know that that's not supposed to last. You don't want 20 years later to still not be sleeping and eating. It's going to wear off. But often, it's that chemistry that people then think is compatibility and they confuse it for whatever else.
00:27:13
Speaker
Most people have experienced chemistry with somebody where you just think, man, I just met this person, but it feels like I've known them my whole life and I'm intensely attracted to them. And maybe you can't even quite put your finger on exactly what it is about that person, but you just feel those really intense, romantic feelings toward them.
00:27:32
Speaker
Is there any data to show how long two people need to be starting to see each other before that chemistry or that compatibility can start to show? Because I feel like so many people have one date, 40 minutes, and they're like, no, this is not for me. But I feel like you might need that second or third chance to at least just get to know someone and get to those deeper levels.
00:27:51
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know what the data would say, but it definitely isn't always instant, right? Sometimes, I mean, you hear those stories of couples who will be like, you know, the first date didn't go well, or I wasn't sure we'd ever have a second date. And it really wasn't until they got to know each other just a little bit better that they were like, oh yeah, suddenly you do start to find the person much more attractive. So I think even if on the first date, maybe you don't feel like you have that instant connection to not give up yet, because it might be the second or third date that you really are like, oh, I want to get to know this person more.
00:28:21
Speaker
So you talked about the three C's, chemistry, compatibility and commitment. Do we know if any two of the three are more important when we think about long lasting relationships? I think I can take a guess.
00:28:37
Speaker
when we think about like cultural differences, right? So Darsh is talking about South Asian societies where it's a lot of arranged marriages. And I know what's usually sought after in that and why those might be successful, but I'm curious if you're familiar with the data and something you've thought about before.
00:28:54
Speaker
I think the compatibility and the commitment are probably most important for a long term. The chemistry makes it easy in the beginning because you're then committed. And just like we know when people are in arranged marriages, they may not have that chemistry right off, but they have to figure it out anyway. And we know that later on, they often develop more intense feelings than couples that
00:29:15
Speaker
are in relationships where they chose one another, because they're much more committed. In relationships where there's that intense chemistry, you're like, oh, I don't mind that you just made that mistake, or I can overlook that thing that just happened. But a year down the road, when you don't still feel those intense feelings, you then have to choose how you're going to respond to those things. And you might not be as forgiving, or you might be angry about something, and you have to decide, do I want to work through this or not? So chemistry can shift over time anyway.
00:29:44
Speaker
You can still get through it as long as you have some compatibility and you're on the same level of commitment. It's funny how people have a different cognitive space when the massive amounts of dopamine and the endogenous opiates have worn off. The other interesting thing is the compatibility, I would say, is the number one thing. When we're talking about the cultural differences, I'm an immigrant. We have these conversations all the time. I come from that culture as well.
00:30:12
Speaker
Not only are they looking at compatibility from a person to person standpoint, but also family standpoint. People often forget how intertwined the families are. And I think over in the Western society, we're a bit more individualistic. When you go to the Eastern part, it's much more tribal in nature. And so that's another piece of compatibility where you're not only marrying the person, but you're kind of marrying the entire family. So that's another thing that they look for.
00:30:39
Speaker
Of the digital apps, again, I've never been on one, Darsh, you're on point that this, I guess we're a little too old for this, but the successful ones, Amy, I'm curious, what do they do differently? Because I know if I put, I'm going to say eHarmony, I don't even know if that's a thing anymore, but I'm sure if I go on TV, whoever's marketing, they're going to say like one out of three marriages are going to be because of this. So what are the successful ones who are on these digital platforms? How are they getting there?
Success in Digital Dating
00:31:08
Speaker
Oh, that's a good question. And fortunately, I'm I don't have to be on dating apps either. So I don't know. Like, I know that there are apps now coming out where they they can use their algorithm to try to pair you with somebody as opposed to just, you know, swiping on Tinder and that sort of a thing. But I don't I don't know what the statistics are and what makes one app more successful than the other. And
00:31:32
Speaker
I'm sure that algorithms figure out some pretty interesting things about us. We know on social media that if they asked you which ads are you most likely to click on, the computer is better at knowing what ads you're going to click on than you are. I would not be surprised if there are algorithms that could figure out who you'd be more likely to go on a date with rather than who you might assume or what characteristics you're actually looking for. That's an interesting question.
00:31:59
Speaker
Yeah, e-harmony, ultimately. I don't think I heard that in the last 20 years. I'm still laughing. Oh, man. But on a more serious note, Amy, when we start to talk about couples counseling and therapy, I mean, most people seek those out when an issue happens. And on this podcast, we're all about being proactive and really trying to figure out health.
00:32:27
Speaker
When do you recommend that, I mean, if there even is a right answer, but when should couples, even if they're dating, start thinking about when to start going into those really deep levels of, hey, if we're thinking long-term, let's actually, you know, go talk to a couples counselor or therapist and really, you know, work on some differences maybe.
00:32:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think it would be great if most couples would do that one before they decide on a long-term commitment to say, let's go talk to somebody. How many couples spend a year or two pointing their wedding in their honeymoon, but yet you don't really talk about, how are we going to join our bank accounts? Or what is it going to look like? Or what would happen if you get a job in a different city someday? Just those sorts of conversations and values. Like, what role do you think your parents are going to play in our relationship?
00:33:12
Speaker
If we have children, what would that look like? And how might our families affect the way that we raise our kids? All sorts of things, religion, money, household things. So many things that I think a lot of people just make assumptions about and don't really think about until they get together. And then we do know that a lot of people, once they
00:33:34
Speaker
Experience problems tend to wait a little too long to get help instead of saying, you know, let's talk to somebody now before the problem gets bigger. We, of course, want to work them out on our own or we hope that they'll go away. So I think if there's any doubt of should I talk to somebody, it's probably a good idea. And for people who say, but my partner won't go, that's OK. You can go on your own.
00:33:55
Speaker
In the book, I share a lot of stories where I never even met the other partner, but we figured out how to address a problem or solve it or figure something out even though the other person wasn't necessarily on board. Yeah, I definitely love those stories because it just goes to show how much of
00:34:13
Speaker
one person, them taking action and focusing on themselves can really affect the relationship in a very positive way.
Modern Perspectives on Marriage and Commitment
00:34:20
Speaker
I am curious to know, and I mean, there is no black or white answer when it goes to marriage and the construct of marriage, but I'm curious because I tend to look at marriage as this old historical perspective, right? And it's carried on centuries through centuries. And now, you know, people are looking at polyamory and open relationships and, you know, staying committed too.
00:34:40
Speaker
How do you philosophize maybe the differences and why people choose to get married versus maybe choosing not to get married but still having a long-term commitment with somebody?
00:34:50
Speaker
Yeah. So the things I'm hearing from a lot of people, you know, I just, I don't want the government involved in my relationship, or there's no real benefits of getting married these days, or why would you do that? Or a lot of those sorts of things, I guess, is what I'm hearing from people. But then I hear from a lot of people who, who feel like they feel safer when they're getting married, because they'll say, you know, just from a legal standpoint, if something happens,
00:35:13
Speaker
or from a financial standpoint, or another people will just say you know I still feel like a better sense of security knowing that we're married or that if we have children then how that would work out from a legal standpoint so hearing a lot of.
00:35:28
Speaker
that I guess more than anything these days. I think the pendulum swings back and forth where people will say, you know, we don't want anything to do with legal marriage and other times when people all know we're all for it. And I feel like there was a pause for a while and now I feel like people seem to be getting, at least the people I'm seeing in my therapy office seem to be more pro-commitment with marriage these days.
00:35:56
Speaker
So Amy, you're certainly, I'm guessing you're familiar with John Gottman's Four Horsemen, right? Yes. For the marriage apocalypse. It's criticism, contempt. Stonewalling is one of them. I forget the fourth one. But basically, if you're not familiar, we'll link to it in the show notes for people. These are signs of communication that might suggest that things are going down a bad path.
00:36:24
Speaker
If you've worked with people early on in relationships, maybe in that premarital period that you were talking about, are there some signs that are predictors of a successful long-term relationship that you're like, yeah, those are some really, really good things, aside from things that we talked about like compatibility and chemistry and things that you've already mentioned?
00:36:41
Speaker
Yeah, when people can use like we language and they say us and we, and both people are committed to saying, yeah, let's, I want to work this out with you and here's how we can do it. Gives me a lot more hope for couples rather than when somebody has the, you know, it's my way, their highway kind of an attitude. So when people are like, you know, this is worth working out. And even though this is painful, I'm still going to sit here and I'm going to talk to you.
00:37:05
Speaker
Because it is like the the stonewalling issue and somebody won't talk about something when somebody says, you know, I'm not going to address this or they get up and they walk away every time you bring it up. What do you do with that? It's really tough. So when people are committed, when they use the inclusive language of we and us and
00:37:21
Speaker
When people also know that there are some differences that don't have to be solved so if you get together with somebody and you know that the person you're with has some personality quirks that maybe aren't 100% in line with yours but you can accept that or you know
00:37:36
Speaker
somebody has maybe some slightly different values or maybe they have some religious differences from you, but you don't try to change them. Then I hold out great hope too, where people can say, yep, this isn't my favorite thing, but yet I'm okay with that and I'm going to live with it. And it's not my job to change you, it's my job to work on managing my response to that.
00:37:56
Speaker
then people can work through almost anything if they have that attitude of okay we're going to work through this and I know where where that line is of where I can just accept you're not going to change and yet it's my responsibility to work on my emotional response to that.
00:38:13
Speaker
I think that right there, Amy, what you said about acceptance and not being the fixer was probably the biggest takeaway from your book, at least personally for me. I mean, I don't know how much for you, like for us being physicians, I automatically assume this fixer role that I probably know best. And, you know, us being into fitness and looking at today's generation and what matters and what's important and trying to
00:38:38
Speaker
impose those habits on my loved one, on my wife, just realize what's counterproductive. As much as I can be a great coach, I wasn't really being a great coach to the person closest to me. And so reframing that to saying, hey, everyone has their own lifestyle and accepting those quirks and accepting whatever it might be, that's when she can shine at her best. And so that was the biggest takeaway that I've
00:39:00
Speaker
that I took away from reading your book. But I definitely want to go into the nuances a little bit of some of the issues that couples have.
Common Relationship Conflicts
00:39:11
Speaker
What would you say are maybe the top three things that, you know, you see couples argue about or even like general themes like resentment, maybe it's setting boundaries, whatever you think.
00:39:23
Speaker
Yeah. Boundaries with family are certainly a huge one in knowing like, are we on the same page or friends? It might be loaning money to people or letting somebody sleep on your sofa for a while versus how much time are you going to spend with family? So family's a huge one. Household responsibilities is always a big one right down to who's going to do the dishes versus who gets the oil change on the car, who's managing the children, that sort of a thing.
00:39:50
Speaker
And then money. Who's a spender and who's a saver? How do you manage that? How are you going to talk about a budget? Or are you? Or do you try to each keep your own money? And a lot of people keep secrets about money. Like, I'm just going to go buy this thing and not tell you. Or I won't tell you how much I spend on this.
00:40:07
Speaker
I don't want you to get mad, so I'm going to keep that a secret. So I see a lot of secrecy around money and the avoidance idea too of I don't want to sit down and look at our budget because it's too anxiety provoking. So a lot of couples end up in debt, which then creates more stress. And the more stress they are, the more relationship problems they have. Yeah.
00:40:28
Speaker
So definitely let's talk about money because I think I definitely see that around too with a lot of my friends and things. What are some like, I know every relationship is different, but what are some of the steps that people can take to be more open to solving these problems? Is it first being more aware of their own traumas that they're bringing to the table or is it first getting the other partner to talk and be more open to the idea? How do people go about this?
00:40:50
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes it's about going back to childhood. What was your family like? Somebody who grew up in poverty might have a completely different idea of managing money than somebody who said, money wasn't an issue in my household. And how did you spend it? And how did you save it? And what did your parents teach you about money? Did you have to hoard money because you never know what's going to happen down the road? Did you spend it freely? What went on? Having those conversations can be a good place to start.
00:41:15
Speaker
And then also just getting real about what your budget looks like. Okay, let's be real on how many bills we have. And the disagreements I often see will be things like, do we want full coverage on the car? One person says, no, it's too expensive. And the other person says, but I have so much anxiety driving around if we don't have full coverage on the car that I feel like I can't breathe. Okay, so then how do you solve that problem? Do you say let's reduce your anxiety, honey? Or do we say let's manage the bank account over here?
00:41:44
Speaker
And just being more open about that so that we can understand. It's not that one person's right and the other person is wrong, but just understanding where the other person's coming from, why they might have anxiety about saving or spending, or why it might be stressful for them. Or sometimes people also say, you know, I don't know much about finances, so therefore I just want the other person to handle it. But then they're not involved, and that's not healthy either.
00:42:08
Speaker
I think just figuring that out, like what are your values about money to begin with? How do you feel about money? Do you have like a scarcity mindset? Are you worried that you're not going to have enough someday? And then let's get real about where we are in terms of how much debt we have or what the bills look like compared to our income.
00:42:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that I've done too with my wife is we talk about our goals and try to get aligned with our goals and then kind of work backwards from there and try to say, well, okay, these are the things we want. This is the lifestyle we want. Now what do we have to do with our money in today's, for today to make that a reality? And that's always seemed to help us get aligned somewhat. So we always try to bring it back to that point, but I appreciate your advice on that.
00:42:50
Speaker
Um, ultimately anything that you wanted to ask specifically, I was going to ask about boundaries. I didn't know if you had anything to dovetail on money here or anything else.
00:42:58
Speaker
No, I just want to plug in something that Ryan Inman, who's been a guest on here, has talked about. Anybody who's in the financial space talks about somebody has to be the CFO of the household. And if it can be both spouses, fantastic. If it's going to be one spouse who's going to be responsible more for the budgeting, that's one aspect. The other person is looking more at the investing and long-term game. That's the role in our household. And you have to be able to divvy it up. And oftentimes,
00:43:26
Speaker
It's going to be one person who's financially savvy in doing that and they're fighting tooth and nail. Like right now it's me telling my wife which credit card to use for which thing so we can maximize our points. And that happens. But she picks up and does a lot of the other things that I don't do. And I think it goes back to the thing that you talked about, we. And I'm always using the analogy
00:43:47
Speaker
I'm like, listen, we're a team. So just like a team, it doesn't matter if I score 80 points. If we lose, we all lose. And if we win, we all win. So I think everybody has to contribute in their role. And then when you have kids, they're going to have their role as they get older and it's appropriate. So I think if you look at it that way, that's helpful for me. If you've never been an athlete and you don't engage in sports and you have no idea what I'm talking about,
00:44:13
Speaker
then Amy's got something better for you, probably. Those are all good points. And just knowing who's going to shop around. I don't like to shop around for car insurance. That's my husband's role. He does that kind of stuff. I have no desire to do that. Thankfully, he's got the patience to do that. Stuff like that. And to just know, OK, and then how do we work together? Some families will say, Sunday nights, we sit down and we have sort of a financial meeting where we talk about.
00:44:38
Speaker
how we're doing and how's it going. Other times people need to work on the emotional aspect too. Sometimes people are like, I didn't want to buy the big TV, but if I didn't, then my partner was going to get angry. So I agreed to it anyway. So then sometimes you got to look at the emotional aspect too. How can we resolve differences? And how do you deal with somebody when maybe they're angry or they're disappointed? And how are you going to cope with the emotion that comes up when we talk about money and possessions and vacations and buying things?
00:45:06
Speaker
With parenting issues. This is a common one to where a parent will say, you know I want to give the kids everything I didn't have in life And the other one might be worried of we're spoiling them. We're giving them too much stuff I want them to earn their own stuff and and having those conversations up front of okay, let's let's get behind that because our argument right now about the The basketball sneakers aren't really about how much you spend on the basketball sneakers They might be on the bigger picture of life like you really think it's important to give the kids everything I don't let's talk about that. I
00:45:35
Speaker
Yeah, and the other piece, I think it just reminds me, you were talking about people having secrets when maybe they're not necessarily ashamed, but they're like, okay, this might be a frivolous spend, and I'm going to hide this from my spouse. I think one of the things that at least in the circles that
00:45:52
Speaker
that I read the blogs and whatnot and people who are maybe physician households or maybe not just high income professionals, they'll talk about, okay, you can, if you can, if you have the liberty to allocate separate funds and just say, okay, you get $200 a month to spend it on whatever you want, no questions asked, right? And that's part of the budget.
00:46:12
Speaker
You want to spend another basketball sneakers? You want to put it all in the $200? Great. That's it. That's all you get, though. And no questions asked. And I think that's something that's also successful that sometimes people get. Like, this is your mental health fund. Call it whatever you want, right? Put that in the budget. Right. And that's part of the discussion right there.
00:46:28
Speaker
And yeah, couples can still, you can still have privacy in a relationship. And for some people that's important. Like if I want 200 bucks and I'm going to go spend it on something that I think is cool and I know you won't, and I don't necessarily have to be accountable for it. I'm all for that. Cause I think just because you are a couple doesn't mean you have to agree on exactly how much you're going to spend on.
00:46:47
Speaker
absolutely everything. As long as you put that in the budget, here's your fund money for the month or here's the money you can use for absolutely anything you want and you don't have to be accountable for it, then that can help people maintain a sense of freedom and autonomy while in a relationship too. Sweet. You brought up kids.
Parenting Challenges and Strategies
00:47:06
Speaker
Let's shift gears a little bit and let's talk about that. I've got a beautiful daughter who I love very much and makes life very difficult. Do you have kids?
00:47:15
Speaker
So I was a foster parent for, I don't have any kids, I live on a sailboat now, so I don't have any foster kids in my household, but yeah, I was a foster parent for most of my adult life.
00:47:26
Speaker
Awesome. So I know you have a lot of experience. You also do family therapy or not only couples counseling, right? So you're family therapists as well. So you probably heard everything under the sun. And I think one of the most important points, the struggle that I've had, and I shared this with my wife before we even had, I was like, my greatest anxiety is bringing a child into this world and raising her because there are so many ways you can F it up.
00:47:51
Speaker
Right. I mean, you could do it right, too. But there are so many ways to F it up. And oftentimes it it doesn't even feel like you're the one raising the children because society is right there. Go to school and maybe you have maybe a little bit of control. I'll put that into quotes because I want to talk about that if that's even a thing. But then once they go to school and their friends and whatnot and then the world as
00:48:15
Speaker
polarizing as it has been over the last couple of years, it just swings left to right. And we kind of like to be balanced sometimes. And that gets to be really, really terrifying, if I may use that word. And so I think you in one of the books had talked about what's the quote about it's easier to raise strong minded children than to repair weak men or something, something of that nature. Yeah, yeah.
00:48:42
Speaker
Um, and there's another one that I think about, uh, I forget who it is, uh, but some, you know, talk about how strong men create like easy times, uh, or something like that. Uh, Dars, you know what I'm talking about? And then, or they're strong men. Yeah. The cycle. Yeah. And so, and then, you know, weak men create hard times and hard times create, you know, all that kind of stuff. So,
00:49:02
Speaker
So it just goes round and round. And I think about all those kinds of things and about how important this is. I say all that to kind of come about. And, you know, when people and new parents, let's just think about people, maybe even getting ready to have children and have all these anxieties, maybe they have differences, right? Maybe they don't see eye to eye on a lot of things and they're struggling. And we recognize that, hey, maybe we're going through this phase and we do want kids. We know that we're in for long haul. We are compatible 70 percent of the way and we have to work on 30 percent of differences.
00:49:29
Speaker
But adding that type of stressor to a relationship that's not already perfect, dare I say, boy, is it hard. And so how do you counsel people when they have that anxiety that they know they want children, they know they're with the right partner, but they also can't appreciate that this is going to make everything harder with their own personal relationship?
00:49:52
Speaker
is do you give them the nudge that go ahead, you're going to figure it out? Do you empower them some tactics and strategies? This is how you will when shit does hit the fan inevitably. How do you talk them through that?
00:50:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's the couples that can acknowledge this is going to be difficult and we're going to have to put the work in that I don't worry about as much. It's the ones who are like, we have a lot of problems, but having a kid will probably solve those problems. Those are the ones that I think, uh-oh, because having a child won't resolve the issues. It will certainly amplify a lot of your existing issues or put them right there in your face.
00:50:28
Speaker
It's just important to then have a plan. What are we going to do when we disagree on the little things like bedtime? What time do you go to bed? Or what you should be eating for lunch? Okay, those sorts of things. How are we going to manage those disagreements? But then the bigger things too, like how are we going to deal with disagreements about how involved grandparents should be? Or how are we going to deal with those bigger issues that you can't always predict too? So just knowing that you're going to have a
00:50:55
Speaker
that you are going to have conflict, accepting that, understanding that it's going to be really important to put on a united front for the kids no matter what. So if you disagree on two things, like that's okay, but you have that conversation without the kids right there, because otherwise kids are really good at the divide and conquer. If they know that one parent is a little softer than the other one, they will
00:51:16
Speaker
pray on that opportunity whenever they can. So to say, yeah, we don't have to agree on everything, but let's have those conversations and to know, all right, maybe I'm going to be stricter when it comes to eating sugar, but maybe you're the one who's going to be stricter on, you know, you have some anxiety about kids doing physical stunts. So how do we manage that? Maybe you're the one that brings them to the playground and I manage lunch, you know, and just having those conversations up front to know that
00:51:41
Speaker
your behavior is going to make a huge difference your personality isn't going to change but that you can figure out what are our strengths what areas do i need to work on and then what do we do when when conflict arises and people that have those conversations ahead of time tend to fare much better than the people that
00:51:58
Speaker
Say, oh, we'll just get there when we get there. And while you can't prepare for all of the different things you're going to encounter as a parent, just knowing, all right, when we disagree and we are going to disagree, here's the plan for how we might deal with it, whether it's just we're going to have frequent conversations or we're going to come up with a plan. We're going to involve a family therapist at times. Those sorts of conversations are what really prepare people for the next step.
00:52:25
Speaker
You know, one of the struggles when those couples ultimately do decide to have a kid is to, you know, one of them is a default parent and the other one is a non-default parent. And for those not familiar to us, I don't know if you know what this is, you know, so.
00:52:40
Speaker
Maybe it's the mom, right? She's doing, if she is nursing or whoever the parent is who is nursing, they might be waking up in the middle of the night and the other parent is sleeping through
Shared Responsibility in Parenting
00:52:51
Speaker
the night. So that person becomes a default parent. If the one person is working throughout the day, has a traditional nine to five job or maybe even longer at the hospital, whatever it might be, and whoever's at home becomes a default parent.
00:53:02
Speaker
one could argue with their jobs even harder. But then when they come home, the other parent has notes to catch up on, whatever it might be. So the default parent always has a tougher job when it comes to the child, and the child is even attached to that person. What strategies, because I'm not the default parent. So this is a selfish question. What strategies or how do you counsel the non-default parent
00:53:26
Speaker
to pull their own weight, so to speak, to make it less stressful and a more successful overall family environment.
00:53:37
Speaker
Oh, that's a great question because that is a common reason that people end up in the therapy office after a couple of years. There's some resentment that's built up or they've gotten into a pattern where the non-default parent is like, no, like that's your job to put the kids to bed. I don't even know what the bedtime routine is. So therefore I don't get up and help or I don't want to get in your way. And people fall really so far deep into their role of the default versus the non-default that
00:54:03
Speaker
that they struggle to then say, well, what is my actual role here? And so I think it's about having frequent conversations about those expectations of, OK, well, maybe you do earn the most money, or you're the one that has the job outside of the house, and I want to support you in that job. So what could I do for you that would be supportive? But then also, then what could you do to not just support me as the parent, but to make sure that you are plintily involved with the kids? What would that look like?
00:54:31
Speaker
And then maybe it's saying, you know, Saturday mornings, you do the fun things with the kids and get the morning off. Or maybe it's Sunday afternoons, we have family time and work is completely off limits. Just coming up with some guidelines and knowing that you can make those somewhat flexible because we know family life is never going to be.
00:54:51
Speaker
Predictable 100% of the time and then just ongoing conversations about what can I do to become more involved so that I don't fall so deeply into the role of the non-default parent that that I that I do lose touch with what the routine is or the schedule or I feel like if you go away I'm gonna have to get a million instructions on what to do for the day that no I also want to make sure that we're on the same page and we're talking about these things too. I love it.
Reframing Negative Thoughts in Children
00:55:16
Speaker
Another thing that I find myself, it's not only a pet peeve, but something that irritates me so deeply, being in different leadership roles. Luckily, my daughter's too young for this, but I've got younger siblings, you work with residents and whatnot. It's this victim mentality, which a lot of people have. We recently talked to a guest about this, Hari Prasad, about people who just have this blame the world type situation, victim mindset.
00:55:45
Speaker
So let's talk about true thoughts versus blue thoughts. Can you expand on that a little bit and for those not familiar what that is and how we can keep this in the front of our mind when we have kids who might be falling into the blue thoughts pattern?
00:56:02
Speaker
Yeah, so blue is an acronym, and it stands for the B is for blaming myself. The L is for looking for the bad news. The U is unhappy guessing. And you think, oh, that's going to go terrible tomorrow. And the E is exaggeratedly negative. Like, oh, that was the worst game ever, or the worst day I've ever had.
00:56:24
Speaker
And those are the thoughts that just are too blue to be true. So they're just so exaggerated and they're so far to the other side that we believe them because maybe we're kind of sad. And then you have these thoughts that are really negative, which reinforces your sad mood. And it's a cycle. We want to break out of that and reframe it to something more realistic. So if I start thinking like, gosh, this interview went terrible because I said a million and one stupid things, I could remind myself, hey, you had three good points today. It wasn't horrible and awful and terrible.
00:56:54
Speaker
or anything like that. I think we always have the opportunity to look for the opposite and say, all right, what's a more balanced way to look at this? And we know with kids sometimes that they'll see themselves as a victim. They're the victim of a bad teacher who gave them a bad grade or a mean umpire who said they struck out when they didn't or the kids who never let them play with them.
00:57:17
Speaker
And our job isn't to always rescue them, and it's not to always make sure that they are getting everything that they need in life. I think in today's world, it's really common if a kid has a problem, we want to just run in and call the teacher and make some demands, or we want to go talk to that coach right away and say, my kid needs equal playing time compared to everybody else.
00:57:38
Speaker
But we want kids to learn how to advocate for themselves, how to speak up for themselves, and what can they do? So if you have a child who says, I always get left out at recess. Well, do you always get left out or are there times that the other kids do let you play with them? Oh, okay. And then we want to have them problem solve. Like, let's say you are always getting left out at recess. What can you do about it?
00:57:57
Speaker
You could go sit on the other end of the playground and by yourself and sulk for the whole time that you're at recess, or what could you do instead? You could invite somebody to play with you. So I think having these conversations with kids to help them look for the exceptions to the rule when they say, I'm going to fail that test on Friday, what's some evidence that maybe you'll pass the test on Friday? And instead of just rushing in to always reassure them, oh, no, honey, you're going to do great, just asking them that question of, well, what's some evidence that maybe you will do better than you think?
00:58:27
Speaker
so that we're teaching them to reframe their own thoughts because sometimes kids get so dependent on mom or dad always giving them that positive reassurance that they don't learn how to do it for themselves. These are the kids that grow up to struggle when they get to college and they don't have a mom or dad right there to reassure them all the time. Yeah, I don't know if I just consider myself lucky or not. But I've, you know, I've never
00:58:52
Speaker
fallen in that trap, fortunately. It is a little bit of a double-edged sword though, because I'm always finding myself playing devil's advocate when somebody else will say something to me about, you know, this was gonna happen, the coach left me out. And I'm like, okay, well, could it be this? Could it be that? Where it's been a double-edged sword for me is, as Darsh was talking about earlier, about, you know, us
00:59:12
Speaker
most men being problem solvers, as when I'm having conversation and my wife comes out and she's just venting. And I'll say, well, what about this situation? And what about this? And what if this is actually the problem? And she'll just look at me like, who said are you on? And so now I've, with some wisdom, started asking here, are we venting here? Are you looking for some solutions here? You know, let me know which frame we're in. And that's worked out a little bit better. But I think this, again, goes back to that book that I talked about before, Crucial Conversations, right? The author talking about
00:59:42
Speaker
how we all have different stories that we tell ourselves, right? So this reminds me of that concept of people have the victim stories, right? And just we create the stories in our mind. And as you've beautifully highlighted, and if you just focus on the facts and what the actual evidence is,
00:59:58
Speaker
Oh, okay. And this whole week, I got maybe they didn't let me play, but actually last week, three times I did end up playing. So those are the facts. So if you can just help reframe a little bit, and maybe even ask yourself, like, Hey, what's the evidence behind this thought process that I'm having right now, this rabbit hole that I'm going down, and there really isn't that strong evidence, then then maybe we can kind of backpedal. But when I think about it that way, Amy, like that
01:00:23
Speaker
kid or that child has to be at a level where their brain is sophisticated enough to have that conversation with. I'm wondering, again, selfishly, when kids are really young, right? We're talking kindergarten, maybe like first grade, where that's not registering, right? Where the right brain is just the predominant part of the brain. What's an easier tactical way to have that conversation early on?
01:00:49
Speaker
So I think when kids are really young, we can still start out by talking about feelings. So a kid who says somebody stole their toy, that's not fair. What are you going to do? You can steal it back. You can punch them. You can push them down. You can go cry to mom. You have options. So we talk about feelings. And a good way to start is just by mom or dad saying, oh, it looks like you're really sad, or that hurts your feelings. It hurts your body.
01:01:10
Speaker
And helping kids identify those things. A kid who can say, I'm really sad today is much less likely to then kick somebody in the shins compared to the kid who grows up and says, you know, I don't have any words to explain how I'm feeling. So start with that. And then to help kids realize that there's a difference between the way they feel and the way they behave.
01:01:28
Speaker
You can feel angry without punching your brother in the face. And when we make those distinctions, like, oh, what can you do when you're angry? And it might be giving kids a calm down kit. I have kids I've worked with who have a little shoebox in the corner, and maybe they have some Play-Doh in there and some crayons and a picture that they can color. And the parents can start teaching them, like, oh, let's get your calm down kit when you're upset.
01:01:51
Speaker
And then it just gives kids a strategy, something they can do when they are upset. So they might not be able to yet verbalize, here's why I'm so angry at my brother, but they can at least say, I'm mad. Here's what I can do. And then over time, kids learn to reach for those skills and tools on their own without needing a reminder. And as they grow up, those tools become a little more sophisticated, but
01:02:12
Speaker
At a young age, we can start teaching them really simple feeling words and anything from just simple smiley faces that kids can point to or color. And those really easy conversations of looks like you're angry. And we know kids when they're young, too, they're pretty good at starting to label those feelings when we practice them consistently. And then you can get them to experience some empathy for other people sometimes, too, by asking them to show you.
Building Empathy and Resilience in Children
01:02:43
Speaker
have a kid who maybe stole a toy from his brother, then you say like, show me a face of how you think your brother feels. When the kid makes a sad face for a minute or a mad face, they actually feel a little sad or they feel a little bit mad for a second, which gives them some empathy for other people. And that's a really important skill to start teaching them at a young age too. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. We've talked about that time and time again, might be the most important skill you can learn early on. And certainly in the career that we're in,
01:03:10
Speaker
So another important topic that I want to talk to you about is shielding your kids from pain. And any parent, this is maybe the hardest one. When I was reading that, I was thinking about there's this clip of Ryan Reynolds on a late night show where he talks about Blake Lively and him before they had the first kid. And he says that, I used to tell my wife that I love you more than anything in this world. And I will never love anything until I had my baby daughter. And he says,
01:03:40
Speaker
When I looked into her eyes, I knew that I would use my wife as a human shield if anything happened to her. And I've heard that sentiment time and time again.
01:03:51
Speaker
Um, I don't think my wife is listening, but you know, uh, I, I feel very strongly about my child too. And so I can't think of anything that, you know, to your point earlier, like parents, you know, when you haven't had something growing up, you want to give that to your child. That comes from pure place of love. You don't want them to experience any hardships, pain that you have had any trauma, uh, that, that you've experienced, um, through, as you've grown older. And so you.
01:04:16
Speaker
kind of advocate that let them feel that pain, let them feel the wider range of emotions. Why is that so important? Yeah, I know. It's physically painful to let your child experience just sadness or to let them be upset or disappointed, and it's so tough. But I always go back to there's a study where they ask kids, they ask college students, were you prepared for college? Like 96% of them, academically, yeah, I was prepared.
01:04:43
Speaker
And yet 60% of them say, emotionally, I was not prepared because they don't have the skills to deal with sadness and loneliness and anger and frustration and disappointment and all of those things that they need to because their parents didn't let them experience it. So always try to keep that in mind that the best place for kids to learn how to cope with emotions is when they're
01:05:04
Speaker
living under your roof and you still have the ability to coach them and help them. And if they're really struggling, you can step in and know how much they can tolerate. Otherwise, we send them out into the world and they don't have the life experience to deal with problems like that or to deal with emotions that are uncomfortable. So I think that reminder, even as a foster parent, I would have these kids that would come into my home and I thought, gosh, they've been through so much. The last thing I would want is for them to deal with any more pain because they've dealt with so much stuff. But
01:05:34
Speaker
That was my opportunity while they lived under my roof was to say okay and now I'm going to teach you healthy ways to deal with that or I'll help you figure out how you can cope with it and I would always have to remind myself of that and that
01:05:48
Speaker
If I treated them like they were fragile, then I was sending that message of you can't handle this, and then they would not be able to cope with it. But if I send a message that was like, you're a strong kid, and I know this is painful, and I trust that you're still going to find ways to get through it, it's send a completely different message of, okay, maybe this is tough, but my mom thinks I'm tougher, and I can get through it too.
01:06:09
Speaker
And to then see them have the confidence that, OK, maybe I didn't make the team or I had a squabble with my friend at school, but yet tomorrow is still going to be OK. And they seem to be more hopeful and optimistic.
01:06:21
Speaker
Yeah, I love that.
Self-Improvement's Impact on Relationships
01:06:23
Speaker
It's interesting, I think one of the central themes of all your books, at least that I noted in the first couple of ones, is the fact that you can only control your own behavior and not necessarily relationships in your life. The people in your life may improve as a byproduct of how you treat them because of the self-improvement you've made.
01:06:42
Speaker
And I think we have this, you know, this delusion that we can control our spouses, our parents, our children. And even, you know, again, in that specific circumstance, you might be in a position of authority, but you're definitely not in a position of a control. Definitely not when they get to school and get a little bit older where they can keep secrets and do those types of things.
01:07:01
Speaker
I've personally struggled with this because, you know, my love language, or at least my love is overwhelming. And, you know, my sister will say I'm a nagger. And, you know, when I when I love somebody, I want the best for them and I want them to be better because I'm obsessed with being better. Right. I'm obsessed with self-improvement. And part of the reason we're having this conversation here and that's for me is that is the greatest show of love is to provide guidance for somebody.
01:07:27
Speaker
But you come to realize that, well, first of all, not everybody cares as much about improving as much as I do. And two, even if they do, they're not nearly as obsessive about it. And so they have to get their
01:07:38
Speaker
if they decide to get there at their own time by making their own mistakes. I put that in quotes is because maybe those are mistakes in your eyes, but maybe they're not mistakes. Maybe I'm wrong. And that is a lesson that I've come to learn and relearn over and over again on a daily basis with every new relationship that I have. And I got to tell you, I do not look forward to learning this lesson more and more as my daughter grows up and makes her own mistakes.
01:08:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's certainly a tough one and we want to prevent mistakes. We want to cheer people on. We want them to do well in life.
01:08:14
Speaker
like natural consequences are some of life's best teacher. So when kids can make a mistake and then learn from it, teaches them, okay, now I have to figure out what to do about it. I can own the mistake that I just made. I can learn from it. I can move forward. I can work on not repeating it again. And when we step in and prevent them from making a mistake or we prevent the consequence from the mistake, then we take those opportunities away from them. And so while it's tough to watch or it's tough to see a kid who's like, I don't really care that much about grades and
01:08:41
Speaker
mom or dad are like, no, we really want you to do well in school.
01:08:45
Speaker
But we know like nagging doesn't work, nobody's life has changed because of a long lecture, those sorts of things. And so it becomes about like, how can I reinforce good behavior when I see it? And how can I make sure that I'm not accidentally reinforcing perhaps some not so good habits, but ultimately it's up to other people to make that decision. And that is tough when more people are like, no, I'm driven and I want to make sure you are too. It's tough to watch somebody who maybe you think isn't as driven as you think they could be.
01:09:17
Speaker
Yeah, some things I'm learning that continue to reinforce is
01:09:21
Speaker
you have to model your behavior, right? People will emulate positivity. And then I've also heard that the best coaches will let their players suffer after a defeat, after a tough loss, after an injury, and they won't get back to talking to them or coaching them until a couple of days after maybe, until they can feel that pain and they're back to an emotional state where they are ready to hear what they need to hear after experiencing that suffering. And so it just kind of, again, reinforces exactly what you guys were just talking about.
01:09:52
Speaker
Yeah, I was just going to say, and we know from the research too, people believe the words coming out of their mouths more than they believe the words coming out of our mouths. And as you know, as a physician, if you tell somebody smoking's bad for you, yeah, they know that. And one more lecture may not necessarily be what changes them, but if they were to say to somebody else, their neighbor said, hey, I'm thinking of picking up smoking. And they were like, you shouldn't because that's bad for your health. You don't want to end up like I do.
01:10:16
Speaker
That's much more likely to change that person's behavior when they say the words as opposed to when other people are always telling them not to do it.
01:10:24
Speaker
It's funny you mentioned that. I was literally this morning driving and thinking about when I hopefully do have my own medical practice, how do I teach my patients about living a healthy lifestyle and what kind of different teaching methods can I put in there? And one of those things was, let's do a case study and how would you coach this person going through whatever ailments they're going through? And obviously it being similar to maybe what they are. And that in itself, exactly like you said, that third person overview, as if you're talking to yourself, will have a drastic change.
01:10:54
Speaker
So it's funny that you mentioned that. Yes.
01:10:59
Speaker
Awesome, so yeah, so we talked a lot today, right? So we talked about dating, marriages, trauma, some helpful advice that we can get better at with our relationships. But I think almost everyone in this world, most people would want positive relationships in their lives. They want positive social connection. They want to feel like they're making an impact with other people, but they also feel happier being around others, right? Humans are social creatures.
01:11:24
Speaker
How important have you noticed from your patients, from your clients, is that social connection as they go through life?
01:11:33
Speaker
It's vital to everybody's emotional well-being, but also their physical health. We know people that have healthy social connections live longer, but they also live happier and enjoy much better quality of life compared to people who are lonely. And it's not always about being around people. Sometimes people say, I have tons of family around, but I don't feel like they understand me and they feel incredibly lonely in a crowded room or
01:11:56
Speaker
no matter how much they're around people, it doesn't get better. So it's really about finding people that you connect with, people that you can be vulnerable with, people who you're willing to listen to, but you also feel like they're willing to listen to you. And when you find those sorts of people and you make those connections, so many mental health conditions get better. People say that they feel better, they look forward to life, and they take better care of themselves, which can make people live longer too.
01:12:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And again, I'm so glad we did this episode. We finally got one in the books talking about relationships and connection. And we've had episodes where we've highlighted the blue zones and how important social connection in that community and that village mentality is to a lot of those people that live up to 100 years old. And even when they are alone in life, maybe they don't have a partner when they're 90 or their spouse passed away, they have people to lean
01:12:49
Speaker
and fall back on. And they've learned how to cope. And they've learned strategies to at least stay connected with the world around them. So totally agree. I think it's of the utmost importance that we hopefully don't lose that. Because with technology and with everything, I'm slowly seeing it kind of dissolve away. So just a good reminder out there to people. Well, Amy, we are actually trying to be better at having the guest also ask us questions if you have any. So if you do have anything for us, kind of putting you on the spot here. If you don't, it's completely fine.
01:13:19
Speaker
Oh, no, I would love to hear what you think in terms of mental strength, maybe what you're seeing in the world in terms of what's helping people stay mentally strong today. Ultimately, if you want to go, I'm trying to think.
01:13:37
Speaker
Yeah. Not recency bias.
Social Connection and Longevity
01:13:42
Speaker
This social connection piece, I think, is probably the most important thing. As much as I would like to say, people who have a physically fit, active lifestyle, that kind of stuff, because that's my bias. And we are very passionate, both of us, about longevity and more so about health spend than necessarily lifespan.
01:13:58
Speaker
And you have the pillars of help. And even the American College of Lifestyle Medicine has recently talked about how the social connection piece, particularly as people age, might be the single most critical factor. Now, of course, there's individuals, people sometimes are exceptions to that rule. But when I see
01:14:19
Speaker
the patients that come to my clinic. And I will usually, so I'm a physiatrist, right? I mean, I don't know if we talked about this. So I see a lot of patients with musculoskeletal ailments, some neuromuscular issues, things like spasticity, super palsy, that kind of stuff.
01:14:33
Speaker
But as individuals get older and they have a lot of physical dysfunction and disability, so we earlier talked about how some people have a certain manifestation of their dysfunction, whereas other people might have the same dysfunction on the objective measures, yet symptomatically they have a completely different profile.
01:14:54
Speaker
One of the things that you recognize is that loneliness can amplify your suffering. And so for me, if I had to, again, everything is important. But one of the things that I'm seeing when we're talking about mental resilience, support, network, whatever word you might want to use for that, that is so important, especially as we age,
01:15:17
Speaker
And especially if we're not aging gracefully, because in this country and really all over the world where health spend is not a thing, that support system is so critical. People getting to the hospital and not having family members visit them and what that experience is like. People being in nursing homes and not having family members come visit them and just eventually losing the will to continue to fight on. So yeah, that's the piece for me. Interesting. Thank you.
01:15:46
Speaker
Yeah, so I'll add it from the perspective of me talking to my friends and just kind of what I see in society.
Independent Thinking and Mental Strength
01:15:53
Speaker
Mentally strong, I think, are the people who are able to independently think for themselves and not necessarily be sheep and just follow what the constructs are telling us, right? So, like, if they do want to get married, at least understanding why they are choosing marriage and how that relates to their past traumas and their belief system or, you know, whether they even choose their diet, you know, rather than falling veganism or carnivore, being independently
01:16:16
Speaker
being an independent thinker, going out, finding the research, and growing through that, right? People who can change their minds through time and also seek out people who are doing that too, right? And not necessarily being attached to just certain role models, because there's not one person in the world that we 100% agree with. And
01:16:34
Speaker
I think the people who can see faults in their role models are also the ones that are like, oh, okay, the world's imperfect and I'm imperfect, but I'm here to learn and grow and continue to think. So I think that to me is about being mentally strong. Oh, I agree with both of those answers. Thank you so much for sharing that. That's great. Yeah, for sure. So Amy, again, thank you for the books. I'm holding it right here for those on YouTube, at least. This is your latest one, the couple. It is, yep.
01:17:02
Speaker
And behind you, so you have six in total, is it? I do, yeah. It's been 10 years and six books. Incredible. So go through them for us if you can real quick about the different topics that they touch on.
Amy Morin's Work and Resources
01:17:14
Speaker
So the first book was 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don't Do. The second book was the parenting one, 13 Things Mentally Strong Parents Don't Do. The third one is 13 Things Mentally Strong Women Don't Do. The fourth one was 13 Things Strong Kids Do. It's the only one that's in the do as opposed to don't do.
01:17:32
Speaker
And then number five was a workbook. It's the 13 things mentally strong people don't do. Workbook. And then number six was the couples book. 13 things mentally strong couples don't do. Love it. So a lot of variety there. I can definitely attest to the couples book. I'm excited to read the parents one, ultimately. I know you have. And actually go through the rest. I'm probably going to get the one about women for my wife. But I definitely advocate that. I mean, this makes me excited to grow with my wife.
01:18:00
Speaker
because I just know like now when there's a conflict, I have guidelines, I have a framework, I have something that I can go back on and really look at, is it me? Is it her? And what can I do? Again, it comes back to us and what we can do to control the situation. So again, thank you so much. Do you have any other books in the pipeline? I'm trying to think about what book number seven is. We have a few ideas in the works and I haven't settled on one quite yet, but there's something brewing.
01:18:29
Speaker
Awesome. So where can our listeners find you? I know you're a speaker, you've got a TED talk as well, but what are your socials and where should people go? Maybe even if they want to see you, I don't know if you're taking clients or anything at this time, but...
01:18:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I do still do some mental strength coaching. My website is the best place to find out info about me. It's Amy Morin, LCSW, as in licensedclinicalsocialworker.com. And you can find me on most active on Instagram where I'm at Amy Morin author. And you can also listen to my podcast, which is called Mentally Stronger with therapist Amy Morin.
01:19:04
Speaker
Love it. Well, last but not least, Amy, again, thank you so much for being here for doing the good work that you're doing for this amazing discussion with us.
Integrating Mental Health into Healthcare System
01:19:12
Speaker
We kind of the theme of the show is, you know, about adding that or putting the health back to health care, right? I think we all understand that this is more of a secure system, particularly when it comes to mental health. Not a lot of people are going for preventative
01:19:26
Speaker
mental coaching, right? Although maybe the most important thing, maybe at the high level sports and athletics. So the question for you is, you know, seeing that we practice in a secure system. So how do we put the health back to health care? Oh, yeah, that's a great question, too. So
01:19:43
Speaker
Unfortunately, health insurance only pays for mental health care once you're sick. So you have to have a diagnosis of depression, anxiety, something like that. I think we're getting to the point where people are realizing it doesn't make sense for me to wait until I'm really sick. So fortunately, more people are paying out of pocket to try to
01:20:01
Speaker
get some help to prevent problems. My hope is that at some point insurance companies will start to pay for checkups just like you can see the dentist or you see your doctor a couple times a year that it would be okay to see a mental health professional a couple times a year just to say how am I doing and even if you don't have a diagnosis yet that you could still find out what areas you could work on or how to improve
01:20:25
Speaker
And in the meantime, for people who have the means to see somebody by all means, it's okay to call somebody up and say, I don't know if I have anything, if it will qualify for a mental health treatment or not. But if I'm willing to pay out of pocket, then you can sign up and see somebody anyway. Love it. Thank you, Amy. Thank you. Thank you.
01:20:46
Speaker
Thank you for listening to another episode of Medicine Redefined. As a reminder, our newsletter is officially rolled out and if you'd like more actionable tips and tricks delivered right to your inbox, please be sure to visit the website and input your email and you will have it delivered to your inbox every Sunday afternoon.
01:21:05
Speaker
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01:21:27
Speaker
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