Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to today's episode of Red Eye. I'm Jane Williams.
Speaker: We interrupt this program is a new book that explores how indigenous media makers in Canada intervene to disrupt the mainstream messages about Aboriginal people. From the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to contemporary film, art and music, indigenous actors are challenging the limiting identities and stories imposed upon them by state and popular media.
Speaker: We interrupt this program, Indigenous Media Tactics in Canadian Culture is published by UBC Press, and we're joined by the authors of the book. Miranda J. Brady is an associate professor in the School of Journalism at Carleton University, and John M .H. Kelly is a research professor at the School of Journalism and Communication at Carleton. Hello Miranda and hello John.
Speaker: Hello, Lorraine. Hi. Hi. Now, before we jump into some of the things you talk about in the book, I want to ask you a bit about how you approach the book, because the the book's about interrupting the frames and the narratives of of Canadian culture. Did this spirit of challenge somehow enter into your own methods as as as researchers and as academics? It certainly does. I've been in news media since about 1974 and 1975. And what I've seen is the intense, incredible power of the media to affect public opinion. And in our efforts as Indigenous people to build our communities and change the image of Native Canadians, the media is just something that which cannot be underestimated.
Speaker: My own training is more in contemporary academic methods, so um participant observation and ethnography, but part of what I had to unlearn as I was going through the process of writing this book is that I was not just there to kind of um gather data, but also to um really take my cue from the participants who we worked with and to try to, as much as possible, include their words and their thoughts and We had some um kind of approaches built into our methods um of of sharing ah you know our research prior to publishing it, and over a possible, we tried to to work with participants to um to include them in our research and to help to kind of structure the research rather than just approaching this as an academic endeavor.
Speaker: Now, I found the the whole book, but the first chapter on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the TRC, very compelling. And you try to deconstruct how the narratives of residential schools were enabled, but also limited by the Commission. So how did the Commission, which which I believe lasted six years, how did it frame its work? Well, the Commission shifted throughout its time in existence. It began and it had a bit of a false start.
Speaker: So when it first began, I think, um what was it, 2009 maybe? After the first year, the initial commissioners resigned um because there was kind of a failure to work together on maybe on their part and also some non -cooperation with the government. And so um after that initial false start, and three new commissioners emerged and really demonstrated a leadership and willingness to work together. And um Justice Mary Sinclair, of course, is one of was one of the leaders of that.
Speaker: And they did a lot of really important and and good work. There is a kind of structure that emerged out of the class faction settlement agreement between residential school survivors and the churches that ran residential schools and the government. um And so that had kind of three branches. um And one of the biggest critiques of the TRC was that it didn't have any kind of teeth in terms of a legal structure.
Speaker: There was a branch that dealt with kind of judicial aspects of residential schools, so actual cases against people who molested children, for example, or offenders. But the TRC's job was to collect testimonials to document the history of residential schools. So they hosted um events across Canada, um national events to collect ah public testimonials and also testimonials done in private.
Speaker: and so uh... you know some of the ways in which the public testimonials for a limited or the things like time constraints in the fact that they were in public and they were posted in site for their a lot of other community members than at times in residential school to resolve a lateral violence and sometimes there were some some pressures there but part of what we wanted to say in our book i think with that there is a lot of agency on behalf of the people who participated in the kr c and sometimes They were even critical of the TRC process itself, and Murray and Claire also pointed out some of the limitations, like a limited budget, and you know at times the government wasn't cooperating with it in terms of turning all of the documentation over, um related to to residential schools, um and you know just
Speaker: kind of a ah fear that this um you know this archive that was supposed to be created wasn't adequately funded. And so there were a lot of limitations to ah to the process, but really what we wanted to look at was the agency of the people who participated in the process. And so sometimes they were critical of the TRC itself, but they still built community through this process. They dealt sometimes with some of the very hard and painful memories that they had been repressing for a really long time.
Speaker: and sometimes that was also very difficult to deal with after after they had done that but we wanted to kind of explore the agency of the participants and how they were using that process. and And I want to get into that in a minute. So I'm going to I'm very intrigued by that. And it was very interesting. But one of the things that your book really helped me to understand was that there was also a ah lot of I guess I would call it mediation and structuring around the testimonies and statements at the TRC. And they sort of prescribed a certain way of ah of approaching your testimony. Can you say something about that, John? It's
Speaker: the people who testified in roughly five to six thousand testimonials were not experienced media people. And the whole idea behind the testimonials was to present to Canada something which had been swept under the rug. I still, as a professor, find myself encountering students who basically know nothing at all about that that part of Canadian history.
Speaker: And yet it had such an extreme effect on our communities. It was a chance for our voice to be heard. And some of the people needed some guidance in the basic forms and the ways in which they presented what they presented. But there was absolutely no way to present it without bringing a lot of emotions to the surface, which is something that Canadians need to see. This is perhaps the single most powerful
Speaker: travesty in Canadian history regarding indigenous people. And it's high time that it come to the surface and it's I think it's it's a powerful statement that it's indigenous people that are doing it.
Speaker: in In the testimonies that that people gave, from what I understood, the person who was giving their statement had you know some time constraints, they were in front of an audience, and um things that might not normally be conducive to sharing such a such heart -wrenching ah Stories that are are still with people and have such long -lasting effects and in the in the community. How did people um deal with those constraints and and yet, you know sort of you use their own tactics to To tell their story in a way that that was important to them. I Remember the one person who testified said I don't think I can do this in 10 minutes. I really isn't that much time. It's it's it's almost no time. When you're talking about a lifetime affected by what went on in the residential school system in the sixties, uh, grab and various other things that Canada has done in an attempt to literally exterminate indigenous people. The TRC called what was done cultural genocide.
Speaker: And that's not the Canadian image. That's not the Canada that that we all love. No. And it had to be brought far forward, and it is being brought forward, and it will be preserved. And we'll remain part of Canada's history. What Canada does with what the Canadians do with what's coming out through the TRC and other agencies is going to be a powerful statement on the quality of the nation that we have.
Speaker: Yeah, I wanted to kind of go back also to the um the specific of your question. one of the One of the things that did happen is that people, and as John said, went over their time. They basically just ignored the person. And there was a lot of commentary. And I remember Justice Little Child saying, Wilton Little Child saying, we seem to be you know always running after a time and kind of adopting a Western structure, um which, you know of course, is problematic, especially in that context.
Speaker: And another thing was that people were told not to name names because of privacy concerns. But certainly, I've heard that happen a number of times where the name of someone was mentioned. And um you know there was a there was a fear of violating privacy. But I think for a lot of the people giving testimonials, it was important for them to name the person who um you know it did so much violence to them. So that did that did actually happen. They ignored the guidelines in some cases.
Speaker: but they weren't supposed to actually name names, which a lot of people found very problematic. I was struck by how some of the people used traditional introductions, for instance, that would be something that would be common within ah within a First Nations framework, but not necessarily a Western commission, ah and and brought pictures of of their loved ones and so forth.
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And that that all that stuff takes up lots of time. So if you have 10 minutes and you you know you've spent five minutes situating yourself in relation to the land where you are and your family and so on, that gives you not very much time to tell your story. and Were there opportunities for people to address some of the more difficult ah effects of colonization issues in addition to residential schools?
Speaker: yes and that the whole commission was based on the legacies of residential school specifically and kind of an impetus to just trade out that without uh... to trade not within a larger colon colonial framework uh... did you do some of that creeping into the testimonials there was commentary for example on land dispossession and um... uh... it a lot of loss of culture and um... you know some of the longer legacies but it was we thought that more when we talked about uh... inuit residential school uh... survivor testimonials that are posted through Assume TV online? No, it's a very important piece of history and the and the contributions of of Indigenous people to to that commission are kind of a gift to the country, but also um I guess a challenge for us to to make real changes to that. and
Speaker: i don't The book has so many things in it, so i so I want to actually just move to another part of the book, Chapter 3, which takes a very different lens on Indigenous media. The the chapter is called Red Facing, Remediation, and Other Indigenous Art Tactics, Challenging Cultural Institutions.
Speaker: Now you say that the indigenous identity has a unique relationship and in that chapter. You say that it has an unique relationship with the mediation because colonization sort of happens synchronously with the development of a number of media technologies like photography, like film. Talk about what that looked like, the development of those images and representations at the same time that these ah media were being developed.
Speaker: Well, originally, the use of photography in the media would stereotype our people and place us in a situation where we would be like the Nanook of the north. The costuming was more the regalia, the clothing people, or the things they did were all stereotyped.
Speaker: and were designed to promote the idea of the noble savage, which is a good guy, so to speak, or the ignoble savage who was the great who was warrior that was killing white people. And it's it's this context in which indigenous artists are taking now some of the most power and putting it to use in producing materials that counteract this. It's extremely important because it's coming from within the indigenous community.
Speaker: Let's talk about a couple of those interventions because I found the descriptions of them kind of amazing. So, for instance, you have this proliferation of Indigenous imagery um and it and its influencing media tactics used used by artists. and And I'm thinking of, for instance, a ah tribe called Red and and the work they do. Oh, yes. There's two directions that the media work are going. One is to educate Canadians about Indigenous Canada.
Speaker: from a perspective that the general public would understand. And the other is what something like a Tri -Called Red is doing and Jackson Two Bears and Dana Clackston and others in which they're putting out pieces that parody the ways in which we've been treated as indigenous people and make a clear statement that this should not be happening.
Speaker: And the truth of the matter is something else that needs to be presented to the people. Could you talk a little bit about the about Ken Monkman's work, for instance? Because i that that was one that really interested me. ah Ken's work is pretty amazing stuff. He took a painting, for example, he took a painting, it's in the National Gallery, he took a painting by Alfred Bierstadt, which showed you 70 National Park, and it was the ideal colonial image pristine land uninhabited by human beings and he put people in it and uh... people who are doing strange things uh... say there were these were not pristine scenes without people this was in the year of coming across a new land in which nobody existed there were people here there were nations here there were cultures here and been pushed under the carpet for far too long
Speaker: It also seems to tie into that um some of the imagery that suggests the the sort of erasure, the vanishing the vanishing Indian, for instance. He does have a ah film um that is ah is a play on um you know the the Edward Curtis photography, which basically is suggests a disappearance of indigenous people. So um yeah, he replays that ah in some of his art installations where it's kind of you know a play on edward edward and kurtis and he illustrates how films and and the photography of edward kurtis were really highly staged and um... and planned so the characters and his film have wigs on and they're trying to act like you know fierce savages and uh... you know they keep they don't really know what to do it's very awkward but they keep kind of flipping their way than getting them stuck in their mouths and not knowing like how how to wear the
Speaker: And they were basically costumes. They weren't um actually, in many cases, the regalia that were culturally appropriate for the models that Edward Curtis used. So, Monck then, in some ways, pokes fun at that. The the very careful production to make um film and photography look authentic according to what a majority audience would expect. And so that that expectation of authenticity wasn't actually the the culture that was being lived by the the actual models in his photography. but um That's what a majority culture wanted to see because they believed that that meant authenticity.
Speaker: Are there some ways in which, and I think you talked about this in the book, in which indigenous actors and media makers are sometimes cast in certain roles in which they're supposed to fit these stereotypes, but they're sort of like a as a second communication that they're making sort of in the know to other indigenous people about like, yeah, this isn't really true. Sort of like, I think you've maybe called it a wink or an odd. That's correct. So that's, um,
Speaker: michelle rahija talks about that uh... you know reading that i can smile uh... she talked about the kind of the agency that was involved in with the actor who is playing and that that maybe he was you know there's various reasons why an indigenous person might read faith so that the act of playing indian some of that was prob you know had to do maybe with economic impoverishment and maybe the you know production of opportunity through that that might be about that the the person in those films and performances might not have had otherwise. um But there's a really great example of that in um the film Real Engine. The film documents you know an old um instance where someone had interpreted what one of the actors was actually saying in his in his language, and it was his line was something you know like,
Speaker: No, we won't sign this or something, and but he was actually um you know saying something quite derogatory about the other white actor as he was speaking. So, you know he he was just supposed to say something in his language to make it sound authentic, but for people who knew his language, it would you it would be kind of a nod and a wink to them. And that happens a lot with, um I think also, Ocema Iglulik Productions. So, the the language that um is used there can be understood by an Inuit audience.
Speaker: and And people who who actually can and understand that language you will know that it's not an exact translation into English in the subtitles. So there's there's more there for people who can actually speak the language. um So yep, that's one maybe one example of um you know performing um for multiple audiences simultaneously. There's different ways of reading it based on your subject position as an audience number.
Speaker: There are many, many rich examples and we don't have time to cover them all. so i So I hope that people will read the book, but I wanted to ask both of you how you hope this book can make a ah difference to indigenous people who are who are engaging ah to try and change the narrative and not just the narrative, but also the effects of of colonialism. I think it's extremely important that we see as Indigenous people that what we're doing, we're doing together. And we're restructuring the way that Canadians view Indigenous people and presenting our cultures. We have as Indigenous people a lot in our cultures and our ways of treating one another and our elders and our knowledge keepers that Canada needs because we have roots. We've been here for 20 ,000 years.
Speaker: um And our cultures have been under continuous development. And it's time that Canada see that what we are in Canada is one of the strengths of this nation and not just from a tourist standpoint or costuming instead of regalia. From a very real perspective, we have a positive contribution to make both to within our own cultures and to the larger culture as well.
Speaker: just in the context of the classroom we're hoping that this book will be taught pretty widely. but John and I both have had indigenous students in our classes and um you know you can see how um including um material that's culturally sensitive is important to them and you know you see that when you have a classroom with both settlers and and indigenous students that it's very important for to handle that well and for uh... a kind of a a positive message also to come across to the non -indigenous students and so we tried to begin this book with alanice obonzo and his uh... you know i think she's really uh... a very profound uh... agent i wouldn't say in the indigenous media landscape she's produced she's directed fifty films with the national film board and basically what every time i see her she's just
Speaker: trying to tell indigenous youth positive messages. She's encouraging them. she's you know She's telling them that they're going to be the next leaders, which they are. And so I think that's very important. And we we ended the book, of course, also with you know trying to to nod to you know indigenous youth as well. and And it's important, I think, to to do that. We highlighted um so Savannah Simon, who's promoting her Mi 'kmaq language online through YouTube and through other social media, and that's and that's really important in in terms of cultural resurgence. um Yeah, so we're hoping, I think, that the book can be taught. um You know, there there's different chapters and on different topics, so you can kind of pick and choose, and that um that the things that we wrote will hopefully resonate with both settler students, and and we'll teach them a lot, and we'll also resonate with with indigenous students.
Speaker: Well, I think there's there's much for everyone to ah learn from the book. and i And I appreciate both of you joining me today. It's been a ah pleasure talking with you. We wanted to do a book, wanted to write a book that was not just statistics about suicide rates, alcoholism, the negatives. It needed to be a book which presented what we can do, what we can do in a positive way in Canada. And that's one of the in my main my main motivators.
Speaker: I'm really sick and tired of hearing about the poor Indians, because we're not the poor Indians. We're indigenous people. We're indigenous nations. We've been here for a long time. We've survived attempts of extermination. We've survived it all, and we're still here. And we're strong. We're not weak. And we're going to continue to be strong. And we're going to get stronger. And I think that Canada needs to hear our voice more and more. And my intention, one of my main reasons for for helping to write the book for for partnering with Miranda was for this message to get out. We are not weak. We are powerful people. And we're an important part of of the landscape in Canada. Well, thank you again so much, both of you. Thank you very much, Lorraine. I've been speaking with Miranda Brady and John Kelly. They are co -authors of the book We Interrupt This Program, published by UBC Press.
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