Transcript
Speaker: I think I went to Afghanistan to answer a question. And that question was was, can you truly be the master of something you can't bear to lose? And I went there to to really answer that, you know, what is the value of human life? That's what I was trying to figure out.
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Speaker: Two days after you came down from the summit of Everest, you wrote to our the group chat that you had included me in on. There's around 100 people. And you wrote, I summited Friday at 4.48 in the morning. I haven't gotten on this chat because I'm still trying to understand what exactly happened those four hours before the summit.
Speaker: At this point, my conclusion is that Everest is not a mountain. is something else. You summited early on Friday morning. you went silent for two days. I want to start there before anything else. What were you doing with those two days? What was going on in your mind and your thoughts?
Speaker: Well, first of all, hey, Steve, it's it's good to see you again. um That experience, I was posting regular updates. So it was once a day, I would basically text through my Garmin inReach and my partner would post those updates on the on the WhatsApp chat and people were following it. So it was a little strange that I had summited and not posted anything for two days. um I was trying to understand just what the heck I had experienced.
Speaker: You know, because there was something that happened on that summit reach that um even two months later, I... It was, you know, it was it was like magic. it was there' is There's something up there that was very, very, you know, I'm tearing up thinking about it, very different.
Speaker: And and i I took two days out to just really think about whether that, ah you know, whether I i had somehow like missed experience. Like was just trying of piece together what was it.
Speaker: yeah and and And that's why I sent that that message. you know It was was two days later. It was so strange that someone would swim in and not be like, hey, I climbed Everest. and And when I got off the mountain, I talked to our lead guide, this guy called Dave Watson. And I said, hey, Dave, I've got to talk to you.
Speaker: And he said, yeah, what's up? And I said, no, no, I've got to talk to you. So we went to the bar and we sat down and... you know I'd been training for 18 months, so it was like the first whiskey I had in a long time. and i was like, Dave, i had I experienced this kind of magical like buzzing.
Speaker: Sort of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And I got stronger. It started about 8,600 meters. got stronger stronger by I was just like,
Speaker: what is going on you know like like it was It was very subtle at first, but then 8, 750, it was an oncoming train. i mean you it was just you know and and And being surrounded by these people worshipping this kind of summit and seeing those oxygen masks, and and there was just something very, very...
Speaker: deeply spiritual or otherworldly or religious or whatever you know you want to call it. It was really just life-changing experience. The guy that sold me a ticket said it would would be life-changing, and it really was.
Speaker: Take me through that morning a little bit. like Start maybe with High Camps.
Speaker: So we like we all pray to the to the church of Steve House. You know, it's really, I wrote that in in one of my updates. um The thing is that before I kind of take you to update, I got to tell you that, you know, I've worked with your company for five and a half years. I came to you guys. I have never been an athlete.
Speaker: You know, I ran a marathon marathon. 18, 15 years ago, and that was basically it. That was the extent of my athletic prowess. um I was probably one of the, out of the 470 or whatever it was climbers this year, I estimate that I must have been in the top 20, 30 fittest people on that mountain.
Speaker: Yeah. um It is an absolute game changer when you've got this like infinite well of just just pure nuclear power. it It doesn't run out. It's just whatever you need to throw at it, whatever the, like, if you're stressed, if you're late, if you need to overtake, if you need to eat, if you need to, like, whatever is a problem with the regulator, you know, there's, like, whatever it is, you've just got this, like, infinite resource you can throw at it, you know? It's just, like, a complete game changer.
Speaker: So the the reason that I say this, right, and and I, and I realized we're on a podcast, you know run by you and it's in some sort of a cheap plug because like, I've gone through a real journey with you guys.
Speaker: You know, I've really yeah i've not learned, I learned a lot, you know, and it, it it's not, and it's not like you read a half page. there's like five bullet points and you go apply it. it's There's a system to it and learning how to tweak your body and tune it to train, you know,
Speaker: is I think the, the, the, the thing that, that, um, that I learned with you guys. And so that's, I think that the first part, because that's what sort of, I think explains some of my experiences on this, on this climb.
Speaker: to whom You know, I think you've got, um, getting to camp four, which is a high camp. That's, that's sort of, you know, in the quote death zone, um was one of the absolute best days of my life, not even best climbing days.
Speaker: You know, i was like, you know this is going from, i think 7,600 to 8,000, something like that, plus minus. And i was exploding with that energy.
Speaker: Like I must have overtaken like 30 people on the way up and I wasn't even trying, you know, i was probably, you know, 150 meters, you know, 450 feet above our team, you know, waving back at them. i was dancing.
Speaker: know, normally you're sort of exhausted and stuff. I was like, I was just like, this is absolutely incredible. Like I am having, like I'm i'm getting goosebumps thinking about it. You know, i' I'm having the time of my life.
Speaker: you know i'm I'm looking up at Everest. I'm looking at the west of Kuhn. There's this incredibly majestic, like huge valley sort of unfolding beneath me right as as you go up. it you know The views get better and better.
Speaker: you know I was listening to some music. i mean it It was like... Awesome. Awesome. I mean, it was just like you're driving like a Ferrari, you know, and everyone's with Toyota Corolla or something. It was like, you know, overtaking was two lines. was really easy. You just clipped the other line. Overtaking, you know i I lapped my Sherpa a few times. I kind of, as we were climbing, bumped into him.
Speaker: And obviously, you know, i made it very clear to him, like, for me, he was the boss. you know so wasn't going to be telling him what to do but at some point i was like hey like you you might consider you know bumping up your oxygen and you know because he just he was and then and it's funny kind of the third or fourth time i sort of nudged him by accident he so turned around he's like you know what just crank it up you know and he cranked it up to two and i was like yeah i thought i thought it would make sense you know but it was it was clear he's not used to that you know so that's that's getting the camp four right and and what came before it you know and know i i entered camp four like look i was tired you know probably because i was like dancing and singing to myself and doing stupid shit you know but like it was freaking awesome i mean that entry again know goosebumps like You've read about it. You've seen it on the internet. The fabled, famed Camp 4 on Everest. The South Coal.
Speaker: The South Coal, that's right. yeah know Super windy, you know trash everywhere. like and That's the funny thing, right? im just like i don't I don't know where there's trash everywhere. you know I was like like a kid in a candy shop. like I was grabbing my oxygen tank, wandering around, taking photos, like talking to people. you know like There's this kind of stress, this undertone in the air. you know And was trying to like listen to it, but at the same time, i like hey I didn't have oxygen on in the tent at 8,000 meters.
Speaker: you know, and, you know, I, I, you know, I wouldn't have it on for 30, 40 minutes and then I'd put it back on, wouldn't have it on, you know, do it for an hour and take it off. Like was pretty okay.
Speaker: You know, I was not in any kind of like discomfort or pain or anything. I was, I was doing great. And then basically, you know, the, the, the, the ascent, right. And so,
Speaker: Fortunately, I had spilled water in my down suit. So that that was an issue that was so dealing with um a lot. Like, you know, my my my sort of crotch, groin area, stomach was sort of soaking wet.
Speaker: So I was like, oh, shit. Like this is, know, down suit doesn't insulate thermally when it's wet. It's going to be minus 35 out there. ye So I was just like, oh, this is not going to be good.
Speaker: And I was freaked out. I was freaked out about this this this water, right? um Very freaked out, like panicking, like kind of like shaking like, oh my God, like am I, you know, going suffer frostbite or whatever. And yet again, like for the, you know, hundredth time on this expedition, right? Infinite wall just energy, you know?
Speaker: So it's funny, you know, got to the the climb, clipped we're behind some team that was like, huffing and puffing and you know and I I was um I was in zone one you know I was in like I'm going for a walk in the park this was And and you know I was like, do I want to overtake them or not? Or yes. and And I thought to myself, you know what? I got enough going on with this water thing. I need to dry out my suit. I'm kind of like panicky.
Speaker: So I kind of used it for that. you know So I kind of you know follow this team at what I thought was a snail's pace. you know like It was almost to the point where it was like, I might need the speed of just to warm up.
Speaker: you know um and we got to the the balcony right at that point it was two hours later or something and i had the down sort of dried you know and i was just like hell yeah and then we climbed from the balcony up you know and it's just like you know you you you you look like what i've learned with you guys is is to almost like shift gears you like this is zone one. I know what that means. I know how far that would get me.
Speaker: Let's not flip to zone two, you know, and that was sort of like the, the, the next stage of it. I needed to overtake a few people, flip it to zone three. I know how long I can, I can stay in zone three, what that really means, what I need for recovery. So I'd overtake them kind of wait a little bit. Right.
Speaker: And then sort of keep going, you know, and then we got to the the summit ridge and that's where like, it just, yeah, I don't know what happened, man. Like, it was just this incredible, incredible, incredible experience. I mean, it was really like, and it's funny, it's been now, what is it, almost, um um it's been two months.
Speaker: Two months, yeah. You know, and and I kept wondering, like, what it fade, what not, and It's something that I think I'll carry for the rest of my life, you know, as as they've pointed out to me. it it It's really changed my, ah I'm just much more relaxed.
Speaker: You know, i've I've got this incredible thing, this like magic potion that I'm sort of processing. Like even walking on the street in the day is kind of a little bit different. I'm like, wow, I'm just so grateful.
Speaker: I'm so grateful that the planet offers this kind of an experience and I got to experience it, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah. I want to like ask you about some of the other things that that you said, because I want to kind of, you know, you and I have been on ah our own journey of of friendship over the last you know five and a half years, and we've had a lot of side conversations, and we've met in person, and we've had a lot of great discussions.
Speaker: One thing that you said is you wrote mountaineering is a lot about waiting, waiting for the weather, waiting for the ice to shift, waiting for climbers that are less fit, waiting for climbers that are fitter, waiting for the supply chain to catch up.
Speaker: It's always humbling. It's always educational. The part of that that threw me was the, and I want to dig into, is waiting for the supply chain to catch up. That's not a typical climber sentence. Where did you learn to see a mountain that way? Where did this kind of systems thinking that that implies come from?
Speaker: Well, I did my PhD at Stanford and artificial intelligence applications for construction. And so I found a company does AI applications for construction, so large-scale optimization operations research problems. um I found out a company that does AI optimization for construction, large-scale construction projects.
Speaker: you know And so um you know manage a team of 74 people today, but that's that's varied. and And I think for me, you know seeing that the operation that Lucas had set up on this mountain was just but kind of mind-blowing.
Speaker: You know, i mean, to me, it was just, I don't get it. You know, like there was people on that mountain that were like, you know, complaining about like, oh I, you know, I don't have this type of food or or like, i need to summit on this specific day because it's my, you know wife's birthday or like, you know, and you're just like, hey, this is a really, really dangerous activity.
Speaker: The fact that Lucas has figured out how to make it a little bit you know like safer you know and and almost luxurious, I think, right like doesn't mean that that it sort of changes the underlying tone of it. you know And so for me, seeing how you know he he was you know had to deal with all these... you know hundred people, hundred something people, like all these logistics, you know, on the mountain, like, and seeing that come together. Right. And like understanding, like, yeah, we're waiting, we're waiting for lists to open up. We're waiting these things. are you know, you got to get the the auction, you know, 72 Sherpas, train of people shuffling all back and forth, up and down this thing. Like it takes a incredible amount of,
Speaker: infrastructure, right? To put somebody up there, not just to put someone up there, but to put them up with enough of a buffer such that I could experience what experienced. Yeah. You know, and there's the sort two sides of the puzzle. Like one is that the training I did with you guys.
Speaker: And I think I really, really, you know, like we can talk about metrics numbers and numbers all this kind of stuff, right? Really like was extremely fit. And then the other side, that the, you know, the the the the sort of operation that Lucas, you know, weszebaugh is running up there.
Speaker: and um And it's funny, I mean, people ask me and I'm like, Everest is quite doable. you know, it really is, but it's doable in two conditions. The first is you've got to be like incredibly fit.
Speaker: Right. and And Lucas said, he and I asked him, like, hey, like and ah do other people have this sort of, you know, magical sort of like almost like cathedralic like, you know, experience? And he's like, yeah, usually, you know, about a third, the top third fittest people that we we take up there.
Speaker: And that fitness, I think, enables you to not be just struggling on, you know surviving and putting the next in front of the other. Absolutely. So that's one. And the other is is having that sort of infrastructure that he's got this unlimited oxygen, two Sherpas per climber. You know, those things are just unavailable elsewhere. You know, the the the photo I have of the the oxygen, you know, reserves at Camp 4 at 8,000 meters, I mean, there must be 200 bottles up there, you know, which is just insane, you know.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the logistics of it. But I think it goes deeper than that, Rene. Like, you know, from what I know about you, and correct me if I'm wrong, I may have some of my facts wrong, but, you know, you were born to a Czech mother and a Lebanese father who was studying engineering in Prague.
Speaker: You guys moved back to Beirut when you were very young. Yeah.
Speaker: you know consistently be em bombed the first five six years of your life you know Czech, Czechoslovakia at that time was, you know different place than it is now.
Speaker: You then said the got into construction, like, you know, as, you know, besides, you know, doing a lot of math, as you once told me, uh, in your, in, in your kind of student years, you got into construction, you ended up 22 years old in Kabul,
Speaker: with a runway that 30% of the country's air traffic depended on that had a hole from an RPG in the middle of it and you were in charge of fixing it. no Like the this is kind of, you know,
Speaker: This way of seeing the world and coming at at the world from a ah place where there was let's just war, destruction, and switching that into a place where you're like a builder in the most literal sense of of the word, you know, and out and not just on a small scale, on a massive scale.
Speaker: How did that, like, what did what did those early years teach you and how did that shape you and how does that translate into how you see the mountains and have these experiences? Yeah, I think, um so first, thanks for for outing me, I guess. I don't usually, you know, share that much about the story, but happy to do so. um I think that that the experiences I had in my my childhood really... um
Speaker: really got me to to to think about like the ones with mortality. And i you know, some people that know me are like, oh, you're some sort of an adrenaline junkie or adventure seeker or whatever. And interestingly enough, I don't think so at all. Right. You know, I am extremely risk averse.
Speaker: yeah know I don't drive motorbikes. you know If I'm in a park or something or friend's house and I see a trampoline, I'm like, hell no. you know like I avoid trampolines. I avoid motorbikes. i like The thing at the same time is that like before, I know the statistics inside out.
Speaker: I know the statistics from most of the 8,000-meter mountains. What are the fatality rates on them? I know the statistics on Rainier. I know the statistics on Everest. I know the statistics for every mountain I've ever done. I know what those statistics are.
Speaker: And for anybody listen to us, like, also, I know the statistics are guided and unguided. who And FYI, the numbers are usually like 10x or 100x worse for unguided expeditions.
Speaker: Yeah. um And so i think I have a special relationship with risk in the sense that I... Before doing any of these expeditions, I spent phenomenal amount of time thinking about, you is this what my soul needs? Is what I need? Is what I want?
Speaker: You know, and I think the conclusion I came to in Afghanistan, which is such a strange decision at the time, but I i spent eight months thinking about whether I want to go to Afghanistan. Really, every day, one hour, or two hours, three hours for eight months. And I was like, you know what? this is This is it. This is what I want to do with my life.
Speaker: And for something like You know, Denali, I mean, i I probably spent four five months thinking about that. You know, and for Everest, you know, I think it was... not every day, but probably a process of about six months to sort of flip and surround my head. And I took a whole day. I'm talking like it was eight hours by myself. I was on vacation with a group of friends. I said, Hey guys, I really need to do some work today. And the work was, I just sat by a pool for eight hours thinking about, know, do I want to do this?
Speaker: um And you know, when, when you look at the the numbers, right, you know, on the one hand, it's 1.7%. On other hand, on the other hand Take a look at who's actually passing away on that mountain. And I saw it you know firsthand. you know it's It's folks that have spent half the amount that we spent have maybe one or two oxygen tanks past camp four where I've got unlimited effectively or 10 that are with us and access to another 20 if I need it. you know um And you start to see that like...
Speaker: My calculation is that the Everest's fatality rate, if you've got the training and the gear and the setup and everything else, is probably in the, you know, one in three, 4,000. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, and that's that's starting to be a quilt. Like your chance of getting hit by lightning in the course of your lifetime is one in 15,000. You know, so it risks in the, I generally take risks in the one in 10,000 range.
Speaker: you know Those are like pretty safe activities. who So when you look at something like this, like, am I willing to slightly increase the risk from one in 10,000 to one in three, 4,000, you know, in order to get this life changing experience that really is...
Speaker: Focaled me or or been the focal point and driven me and taught me so much about myself like the training, you know, mean I five and a half years for Train for Denali or train for a car going to train for all these it wasn't you know forever for like nine months of just doing nothing else with training for this one, right?
Speaker: And, you know, is is this, you know, the right exchange? And and and the truth was, yeah, it was. You know, now that I've done it, I mean, I'm um like, oh my God, it was so amazingly, you know, such an like amazing experience, but also like ah i'm really proud of the way that that it was executed, you know, the the amount of time and discipline that went into it and went into selecting the company and went into into selecting, you know, putting this whole thing together, you know, which is why on um on the summit ridge, I just, like I had so much buffer,
Speaker: that I was highly aware, able to look around and like i wasn't maxed out by any means of that.
Speaker: When you say that you Afghanistan taught you or made you think about mortality, did it did it made it make it clear that there is real risk of being killed and life-ending? Or was it more like it was helping that you were able to figure out where your tolerances were or are and say, okay, yeah, like this 1 in 10,000 is generally...
Speaker: You know, just putting numbers that you said to it, but, and that occasionally I can dial it up this way or what, what is that? Like, what does that, what do you mean by that? What, what did that experience teach you or bring you?
Speaker: I think, you know, you'd have to go back to, this is a, you know, now a deeply philosophical discussion. and And I actually think most mountain conversations are deeply philosophical. Absolutely. You know, you know, I, I, I really, interestingly enough, I've not met that many people that want to do it just to kind of pound their, their chest on the top, you know, cause it's so humbling. It kicks your ass so badly. Like,
Speaker: you know you you You really kind of learn a lot about yourself. um ah But to answer your question, I i think went to Afghanistan to to answer a question. And that question was was, can you truly be the master of something you can't bear to lose?
Speaker: And I went there to really answer that, what is the value of human life? That's what I was trying to figure out when was 22. and And I think what I learned there was was so two important things.
Speaker: One is that for me, know, these are all very personal things, but for me, what I learned was i the conclusion I came to was, I don't think one,
Speaker: i e myself should live life being so afraid to die that you can't trade it in for anything.
Speaker: Because that makes life, you know, and in my sense, sort of almost a little bit unbearable because at some point you will need to face it. Yeah. Whether it will happen in your 50s, your 60s, your 70s, your 80s, like at some point you will need to face that that is the eventuality that's on the table.
Speaker: um At the same time, I realized that one shouldn't gamble their life on a whim. You know, so like, just kind of like, oh, let's just take a risk and it'll be fun.
Speaker: i don't think that's something that's worth losing your life for. Right. hundred percent. On some level, when I looked at this Everest thing, like, sure, you know, all the the the training and the safety and and, you know, I think you and Lucas are best in the world at what you do.
Speaker: um That, you know, enabled a substantial safety buffer. But anytime I go into the mountains, I'm like, hey, you know, like some, you know, It's not a, it's not walking in the park. It's not, you know, ah like your former climbing partner says, it's not playing tennis, you know.
Speaker: um so So, I mean, I think that, um
Speaker: For me, realizing, you know, what is life worth trading for or or even like at at what what is what is worth putting my life at risk in some ways and how much risk do I want to put it into, right?
Speaker: And so for me, when you look at statistics like K2 or it's one in three people, like, Truthfully, it's like incredibly outside my risk tolerance. You know, it's it's it's so out of my risk tolerance. Like i I'm, unless I think we just, we don't have that skill set, you know. um There's certain things that like are incredibly dangerous, you know, or or dangerous, you know, horse riding, for example, right, is is a good example, right?
Speaker: um that people are skiing actually is a lot more dangerous than people you know realize. yeah and At the same time, you've got things like skydiving are probably a little bit safer than people think of. you know and We're just bad at it.
Speaker: you know The same you know yeah you know an expedition to KT versus Everest, like it's not the same ballpark. This isn't like 20% riskier. This is you know like 100% times riskier. That's to me like the the approach I have with mountains and and what I do. and It's even funny, right? I mean, people will keep asking, me what's next? What's next? And I find the questions confusing.
Speaker: I'm still processing this experience. It might take me a year or two or three. Like, Afghanistan took me two and a half years. I got back and I was like, I i just got a process. and And I literally, I halted everything.
Speaker: i I wasn't a runner, I wasn't here doing hobbies. i like I literally was just like, hey, I need to get kind of processed what happened. It's very similar with Everest, you know, I think. But in almost this like magical kind of, you know, tears in my eyes, like I'm so grateful I got to do this. Like what an amazing experience way. It's really just amazing. yeah yeah So I think like to sort of summarize what i said, like to me,
Speaker: What I learned in Afghanistan is that for me, you know, one shouldn't live your life where you can't lose it under all circumstances, no matter what. Like, at some point, you will need to face that eventuality.
Speaker: And also, you know, your life is extremely valuable. Yeah. It is is the most valuable thing you'll ever own. And sort of gambling on that way, we're just like, yeah who cares? Let's just jump out of an airplane or like go base jump. Like,
Speaker: like is Is the thing that you're getting out of this experience of of equal worth, of equal value? And for me, you know, this kind of an expedition to like Denali or Everest, like that's just like, it's such a dream, you know? mean, I literally, like i was on an airplane, I started literally crying with tears rolling down my cheek, just remembering Denali and what that you know experience meant. So really, we just very cherished and continue to cherish these experiences I've had. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, i i I just hear so much of what you're saying and thoughts and feelings and words I've said in the past. Like there's there's experiences I had in the mountains 30 years ago that still bring tears to my eyes if I so i sit with them. You know, it's it that never goes away. So just like, I don't know if that's frighty or reassuring, Renee, but... But I do think you carry that for for your lifetime. You've touched a little bit on, you know, your background in mathematics. You've brought up statistics. Obviously, that's something you spend an enormous amount of time at and became very, very good at. and
Speaker: you've had these very, I don't know what to call them, like in a like repairing runways in Afghanistan. Like that's sort of like, you know,
Speaker: trying to run a diesel generator. You told me this story once. I don't know if you're, you know, you told me the story of like you had this diesel generator in Afghanistan, but none of the fuel in Afghanistan was water free.
Speaker: So you had to design a system to, you had to. We a bill of gas stations. yeah Yeah. In order to run a generator so I could turn computer and work.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, this is like, you know, your first principles thinking, right? Like you need the computer, but there's no electricity. Why is there no electricity? Well, because it comes from a generator. Why is the generator not running? Because there's water in the diesel. Well, how do we get the water out of the diesel? like well i I was like, are you literally telling me that there's no water-free diesel in the country of Afghanistan? And and the look I got was like, what are you, an idiot? Like, obviously that's the case. I was like...
Speaker: Okay, so three hours later, we're designing our own gas station that does water-free diesel so we can pump our own generators. to Yeah. Yeah. So there's a there's a really interesting connection, i think, between these kinds of like very hands-on problem-solving systems thinking.
Speaker: And you, you talked about like the the system that a pill athlete has built or the system that Furtmach has built to help people climb Everest.
Speaker: what is, and then you yourself have built this, this company around this. I mean, what started as kind of an algorithm, right. But it's now a a very complex set of, uh, yeah, I don't even know how to describe it. Uh, code, let's just say that, that can solve problems at scale that have a lot of value to people.
Speaker: How, There's a really interesting connection between those those two things. And I think that this is one of the things where a lot of people who are drawn to the mountains or endurance sports in general and are successful and especially are successful over a long period. And I want to get to kind of your trajectory in ah in a minute there.
Speaker: how did that How does that connection manifest in yourself? like are these did this this In hindsight, does this all feel sort of inevitable to you that you're just like putting together different parts of your personality and how you're going to manifest in the world, if you for lack of a better word, as Rene Morcos? And its it involves all these different you know parts of you. And then that results in...
Speaker: these experiences and these, the, the, you know, building help me understand that.
Speaker: ah That's a ah really sort of good question, kind of a deep question. um Absolutely, yeah. no ones and it's And it's a genuine question, Rene, because it's something like that i I see the patterns, but I don't i don't have the answers. That's why I'm asking you the question. I don't i can't answer it for you. like How does that work?
Speaker: It's, again, a philosophical question, you know, and I think the De guste bus non est disputandum in Latin, which means of taste you shall not dispute. so and and And I and often say that the beautiful thing about father peace is they're all right.
Speaker: You know, the Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy, the meaning of life is 42. The reason it's 42 is it's the ASCII code to the asterisks. It's anything you want.
Speaker: And so um to me, when I look look at my life, to why would you not want to paint a masterpiece? Why would you not want to see what's on the other side?
Speaker: Why would you not want to have this experience of climbing Everest? and there's unfortunately a category of people that have that thought and they're just like, oh, I'm just going to like show up at this mountain, like waltz up it, you know, and and that ends very, very badly.
Speaker: You know, and I've seen it live, you know, even on this expedition. um The, um but the, the, the concept of like,
Speaker: Doing the research to find you know the people that are some of the best in the world, right? You can't say who's best, but some of the best in the world at what they do and learning from them, you know applying yourself to you know unlocking the system effectively.
Speaker: you know, which in this case, you know, that really is a method to the map, more than a method to the map. You know, it's a very fine-tuned, you way to do it, you know, both between, you know, your training systems and Furtenbach's sort of of expedition, right?
Speaker: Like, those are things that that I think, um um those are things that that I really like sort of unlocking or or learning.
Speaker: And so i think,
Speaker: when you say first principles thinking like, i think there's kind of, to me, it's more of a question of like, what do you want to do with your life? And, and what I've learned, you know, is just that it's just, it's kind of about Steve Jobs quote, right? You sort of learn at some point that the world is created by people that are no smarter than you, you know, you can kind of build anything you want. And that, that's kind of, I think part of what motivates it. And the other part is like, I, I want to see, you know, like, what is it like being an athlete?
Speaker: yeah what is it like to train for like climbing these major expeditions? you know and like What an incredible you know half decade, you know seven years of my life you know to to dedicate to something like that, to like answer that question.
Speaker: you know and and yeah i don't know like that That has never changed. it's been the same pattern. you know Just as I've gotten older, that the the the thing I'm trying to figure out has gotten bigger.
Speaker: You know, like at this point it's the biggest mountain in the world. And it was, it was phenomenal. You know, like that whole process of like unlocking it, you know, and that, like, that's the thing that kind of makes me happy. It wasn't like I just climbed it. Like I didn't summit this thing and go home and like kind of, but just barely making it. they're Like, no, I had 30% the tank. Like I was having a time of my life up there.
Speaker: It was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And now the the style of the way that it was done was, I think, representative of of all of that work and sort of unlocking the system piece, right?
Speaker: Which that's kind of kind of fixed, right? Like the next thing I do is also going to be some kind of like, hey, what's the what's the thing I need to like learn or unlock or how does this kind of come together? That's basically it. Yeah.
Speaker: want to take you back to five-ish years ago. You were, I don't know, three weeks, six weeks, something like that into your first... block of training and you know you were like i don't get this the workouts you know there are 45 minutes of easy running nothing was complicated you weren't feeling like you were destroyed yeah walk me through that disbelief that you experienced and what helped you to to to keep the faith
Speaker: We've had this conversation. I think you guys do an incredibly poor job at explaining what you do. You know? Yeah. Like, I've introduced you to people, and they'll they'll they'll have the same experience. They'll, like, sit there, like, at i don't I don't get it. Those guys just telling me to run in circles for, like, 45 an hour. Like, what BS is this, you know?
Speaker: um Look, the the truth is, you you take that to where I was before leaving for Everest. And like, here's here's an interesting question. So people, you know, I'm like, hey, so I spend four hours on a Stairmaster on Saturday and I'll do maybe three hours on Sunday, maybe three and a half, three and a half. Like that's my life for nine months. Every Saturday, Sunday, I spend three to four hours, um not less than three, not more than four. Somewhere I'm sitting on a Stairmaster.
Speaker: and And people are like, well, you know, that sounds so boring. what do you What do you do? And it was like podcasts or whatever. And sort of funny, I'm like, actually, i've got a lot on my hands. I'm fine tuning the training.
Speaker: increase the speed a little bit, decrease the speed a little bit, wipe the sweat, water, little bit of food, you know, tweak this, you know, move the the weight over, you know, wipe sweat, you know, increase the speed. And and and it's because I've, i like, over the years, of our worked studio I've learned, like, the difference between, you know, and and it's funny, right? Because, like, originally, even you guys were like, hey, training outside.
Speaker: and it's, if you can figure out, it's such an, like, non-intuitive way to train. Yeah. Because what you're effectively looking for is is the exact right intensity. And it took me eight months or six months of working with you guys where I could actually tell when I crossed that threshold.
Speaker: It's like a little bell that goes off. It's very, very subtle. So no way in hell's earth that, you know, if I did this for a decade, I would have figured it out. And the stuff that you guys work with is, is is and and and you don't market it that way, but like it is what Olympic medals are made of. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: If you look at Olympic athletes, like they are using, you know, I probably know the basics, you know, I know them pretty darn well at this point, you know, yeah but this is basically what Olympic medals are made of.
Speaker: And it's kind of intuitive because you you want to go for a run and you're like, hey, like if I go for run, I want to train. Like all the movies have someone really like working hard.
Speaker: you know And so you know i got to really sort of like you know put the pain in. you know and the interesting thing about it is like it's the last thing on earth you should be doing. Like that's called zone three. Don't do that.
Speaker: You need to have a slow, steady run. And then the part that you – here's the deal. It's like is it really worth – like can I work to the personal coach from you guys? Like is it really worth a personal coach to tell you that intensity of where that flips? And I'm like that's the whole game.
Speaker: If your aerobic threshold is call at 158 on this week and you're training at 163, you like youre it's you can take that training and throw it out the window.
Speaker: yeah And if it's 158 and you're training it at a call at 140 or 145, it doesn't get you the juice. But the truth is like what's freaking crazy is that what I learned with you guys is I could identify that aerobic threshold, bang off the money.
Speaker: Like I know it, I can feel it. And I would feel it going up week by week. And what I learned with with you guys is just to be three beats below it. and if i and And the truth is, if if i if I had other stuff going on, you know, my my partner calls, there's some business meetings, et cetera, like I'm not focused on the training session, I would exceed it or be below it.
Speaker: And that training session wasn't very efficient or effective. But holy cow, like if I nailed it, if I got into that gym and I did three and a half hours and I know that my aerobic threshold on that week, for example, was 165 and I was at 162, bang on the money for three and a half hours.
Speaker: Like that feeling of leaving the gym, I'm like, bam, I know exactly what's going happen over the next. Like I will wake up three days from now and I will feel it jump.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, and that's the thing where like, and that's the question, like, why did I keep the faith? I kept the faith because I think I'm like most people. I, I, I'm like, I've, so I've worked with, you know, through Stanford and other places, like people that are best in the world what they do.
Speaker: So I'm like, even though these guys aren't explaining it very well, right? Like there's gotta to be something they figured out in the last 20 years. You know, and so that's what kind of kept truthfully. That's what kept me going. Cause I was like, i like, I don't get why, like, what do you, what do you mean run it at at a certain heart rate? That doesn't make like sure. Okay. And, and it's ah interesting. I would always exceeded and I wasn't really listening to what the coach was saying, but I was like, you know what? I'll bet on the fact that there's something here and oh my God, is there something there?
Speaker: Like, like just FYI, I wanted to get my my heart checked before I did this. you know And so I went to the cardiologist and they put you on this treadmill and these you know electrodes and it goes up. And somebody starts looking at me like, hey, are you okay? I'm like, yeah, yeah, like let's keep going.
Speaker: He's like, this is usually where stop people. Are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. So we went you know another few minutes past that and he increased and increased the analysis. And when we finished, he he sort of looks at me and goes, hey man, I've been doing this for 28 years.
Speaker: you're like in the top 20 fittest people I've ever met. And so i was like, i don't know. I was like, yeah, sure. Whatever. I had didn't really internalize it. Then, then I got to like Everest and I just like, Holy cow.
Speaker: Like we ultra marathoners with those guys that are doing 140 mile an hour, hundred sorry, mile races and things like like It's just crazy. It's just insane. I mean, like my aerobic threshold, by the way, before I left for Everest was in the 168, 169, maybe even scraping yeah What that tells you is I could i could basically sustain the heart rate at once. My training for three and a half hours was at 168, 167 beats a minute. 167 was like, that number rings with me. like I know that number.
Speaker: who you know And I could just and it was be flat. you know It goes up when you're sort of out of breath. when you sort of you know It's more than you can handle it. Three and a half hours, 167, bang on the money.
Speaker: you know And that's kind of what I was able to do. And that's like, it just... insane you know yeah yeah my rule of thumb with this is like within about five percent so like that's a good sliding scale right because if you're a robot threshold is 120 five percent of six beats if it's 170 you know five percent is is a little more but um so the window is is a little bigger And people need to understand that you know, your robot threshold changes a little bit every day, has a lot to do with your recovery status, which has to do with, I know, how hot it is, how hydrated you are, how well you slept, how much stress you have, like, it can be a ah lot of factors, you know, we're not just purely robots, right? so
Speaker: This is also where the coaching comes in, where you're like, okay, you know, given what I've seen and how you responded to yesterday's workout, today you should be able to, look you know, do your workout at an aerobic threshold that's pretty close to the top. And other days it's like, you know what, we need to be kind of like, and you know, if your aerobic threshold's 170, we need to do this workout at 150. And that's where that like kind of fine tuning is and that back and forth.
Speaker: Yeah. i mean, that's the thing. Also, like people would ask like, why, why, you know, like even after five years, like, why am' I still working with a personal coach? And the answer is like, yeah, I got the basics down. but I know I can go to gym. I know all my aerobic thresholds. I know how to train for it. I know to measure it. I know, you know, like I come like can get it. But like, there's these fine tunings, you know, of like, hey, you know, the the the knees are a little bit tweaky today, right? Maybe I dropped the weight or like, you know, maybe we would go for run. Maybe we do something, you know, like, or or maybe we take a couple days break. How do you want to increase it? You know, do you, is it better to put a little bit more weight, slow down or vice versa? Like there's fine tunings that you're doing on it, right?
Speaker: um Yeah, sure. If you've been wondering whether one-on-one coaching is the right next step for your training, this is the month to find out. Sign up for coaching and receive a free 30-minute call with one of our specialists.
Speaker: Visit uphillathlete.com to learn more. Now, back to that show.
Speaker: We were talking about your Everest attempt for a couple of years, actually, right? You postponed it for a year um due to you know some some work stuff that was going on that required your attention.
Speaker: You got through that, you came back, you did about nine months, roughly two months sleeping in the hypoxic tent. And then you went up to Mara Peak and you had a pretty rough night at like 5,000 meters. Kind of walk me through that, walk me through your thinking and what the tent bought and love to hear a little bit of that story.
Speaker: so So there's a new game in town. You get to sleep in these hypoxic tents. So that means you acclimate before you get there. you know um but Now, the the truth is that, like, you know could you theoretically acclimate at home, show up at Everest and, like, waltz up it? Yeah, theoretically. um The truth is, um probably a good idea to do a dry run. have to see if everything kind of, like, because...
Speaker: You do need to get into the sort of mindset and the and the mental state and the physical state of of climbing up. And so so that's why Merit Peak is there. all And like now that I've done it, I'm like, absolutely. Like definitely do like a smaller, like sort of one week sort of, you know, walk around the woods, so to speak, to to see if you're ready. um the The thing I think I've learned about my body is that that I had it on Denali.
Speaker: I had it on Amon Ablam and I had it on Everest. And it seems like my body goes to through some kind of like, it kind of builds up and there's like a really, really like shitty night of extreme, i don't get nauseous, but like I'm talking like an 11 out of 10, 12 out of 10 nausea.
Speaker: you know Like writhing, I don't feel well. And it lasts, in and and all three cases, lasts somewhere between like little more than four, a little under six hours.
Speaker: And then I'm done. I wake up in the morning, I'm like, yeah, I feel great. There's some kind of like something snaps or breaks or there's something that like kind of flips. And so I think what I've learned with with Lucas's, you know, sort of approach with hypoxic tense is, A, they're standard even for regular expeditions. So we did the the fast one where you can do it in three weeks. But even the folks that do it regular, like also use the tense well for four weeks, not eight like us. And I think it's the way to do it.
Speaker: yeah increases safety. It really is is is a huge so safety buffer. But I think like like my understanding is that there those tents can only replicate low oxygen. They can't replicate low pressure.
Speaker: And so there's something else that the low pressure does. But the difference is that your body can do that in a couple of days versus the couple of months it needs to produce the red blood cells.
Speaker: yeah And so that's why I think that that you you do this sort of you know dry run, you pick up some of the the the other non-so-time intensive acclimatizations in in that period.
Speaker: and then you know for me like yeah i i also this time came prepared so in the last expedition the guide was like why didn't you tell me i was like what can you do well they're giving you an anti-nausea pill it's like pregnant woman use and i was like oh so this time i had one them with me i felt this thing coming on i took it and you it really just like it didn't make it completely go away but it went from like an 11 to like call it a four you know and so yeah but those those moments like yeah every time i'm like man like why am i here like is this really what i want to do with my life you know like this really really really sucks you know and then it's funny then it's like literally that was it
Speaker: And I'll wake up in the morning and just look, hey, this is awesome. Yeah. I think one of the things that has really been moving in the last, like, I'd say three years now, I think it really kind of something clicked, is that we, as and we, I mean, not just a pill athlete, I mean, the greater high altitude acclimatization interested community sort of figured out just through trial and error of the last 20 years, like kind of the right pace, the right dose. And again, like commonization, it's a lot like training. It's the the response is highly individual. And so what you have to read is a person's response and then you have to adjust
Speaker: based on that response. You can't just follow ah a formula and be like, I re-increase, I don't know, the sleeping altitude on 100 meters a night. like That doesn't work because because everybody's response is too individualized. So now it's like we're we're we're we're taking we're taking data oxygen sat, sleep data, that kind of thing, and then being like, okay, well, here, we need to pause here for a little bit. Okay, now let's let's take it up a little bit. And we're also giving ourselves more time. We're giving ourselves more, typically, eight weeks.
Speaker: The other approach and and a lot of the guide services ah that we work with for Everest and and Denali that use these things are are very good with helping us get this message out is you know the the training load has to go down during that time too right because your body's got to adapt to the commoditization stress and so we need to have most of the training in the bank before you go into the tent and so that's that's there's all these kind of different things that we've figured out how to how to balance and adjust so i think that that's there's been a lot there in the last couple years it's come together
Speaker: There's definitely something that, ah like, you know, why try and train with a, you know, that's the thing that you guys provided, right? You've got someone I'm working with, right? Who's, who's used a tent?
Speaker: Yeah. So he's highly aware of what the, and he goes, hey, hey, easy, easy, buddy, easy. You know, you're sleeping at, you know, 6,000 meters at this point in time. you know, that's not good for you, right? No, like, like, I don't want you to do three hours on Saturdays, do 45 minutes, you know? And so then, you know, what is the, the, the maintenance mode that you're in? So that's, I don't, you know, it's not stuff that would, I would be familiar with. Like, how do you maintain instead of increased fitness, right? How are you feeling on that day? And that's the fine tunings. Yeah, I'd agree. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What you wrote in the group chat about your night at 6,000 meters was not leaving the tent or sleeping bag until like six in the morning and taking 20 minutes to get dressed. That was, that was, ah that was some good writing. I want to actually go back to the, something you said in the group chat and, and collect on something you wrote. And this was early. i can't remember exactly, but early Yeah. And you wrote, I often say the mountaineering is the cure for the male ego.
Speaker: More on that later. But you never wrote more on that later. So here I am collecting. What did you mean by that?
Speaker: You know, I think like the nice thing about mountains is like they... and I think there's a lot of learning coming from hacking your ego down. It's usually one of the most so i think um potent lessons, you know sometimes the most painful ones come from. you know i think ah And mountaineering has this and ah and incredible ability to do that.
Speaker: You know, I was sick when we climbed Denali. That was representing the absolute peak, I think, of what I could do physically. um I was a stomach bug. And then on Amadablam, I had a ah flu, so that sucked as well. And that wasn't, you know, easy.
Speaker: um But yeah, I mean, these mountains have this ability to just... really, really, you know, cut you down the size. I had it that night on Merritt Peak of all things, right?
Speaker: And just really, really just not feeling well, painful, et cetera, right? oh On Everest, you know, um yeah, maa I was super paranoid about not being sick. So I was like, people make fun of me because like I use that hand sanitizer, I think like everywhere all the time, you know, et cetera.
Speaker: But I wasn't sick. And and so i was very, very fit. At the same time, there's a psychological aspect to it. This thing's big. It's intimidating. People are dying doing it as you're there.
Speaker: and you hear these like little avalanches and little rock falls and things like that. you know it's sit's Yeah, I don't know. i i would I would invite anybody to go to that thing and and say, like I'm not intimidated. This is going a walk in the park.
Speaker: That was all my experience. and I was like, this is really big. like Keep your on the ball. Have your shit together. like Yeah, it it definitely, like, for sure, you know, it makes you sort of realize, know, the futility and that and the and and the incredibly fragile being that you are in this and the grand scheme of things. And I think that's a beautiful thing to take back to the to the real world, I guess.
Speaker: you So where is the ego in the end? Is it gone? Is quiet? Is it smaller? Yeah.
Speaker: I think it's it's a great question. you know I think that, you know is it gone? It's definitely not as a as ah as confident. for yeah you know And that's how i ended up talking to you guys. right It was on Oriza Alba, where it were my sort of, oh whatever, I'll just wing it and figure it out when I'm on the mountain, like did not no longer work.
Speaker: You know, and that's when I was like, Hey, I got to go and and and find someone that knows what they're doing start training with like an actual pro and and and go do it. So to me, yeah, though the ego, i think it, it, it's still there. you know, I'm still me. It's just, I think a lot more humble.
Speaker: Yeah. Easy. Yeah.
Speaker: want to circle us back around to kind of a what I think is the most powerful part of this experience for you, which is sort of the summit day. and And you had written, it was something...
Speaker: otherworldly it felt like we touched the gods as the heavens opened the sun rose lightning storms below us the winds picked up as we entered the jet stream like some kind of aztec or sacrificial ritual the energy was insane so you kind of reach for aztec ritual for the gods and like one of the the
Speaker: areas i'd say of our friendship that's developed that's been most valuable to me is understanding how you spend your time proving things with mathematics and with data and that seems kind of at odds with this ability to not just see but accept and be open to this kind of a you know you said it yourself spiritual experience Where does that language come from? do you connect though that kind of hyperlogical,
Speaker: mathematical, everything is solvable world to being able to have that kind of experience and in the middle of the you know the highest piece of real estate on earth?
Speaker: It clashes is the answer. And that's, I think, why when I got off the mountain, I kept trying to like figure it out. I was like, oh, I'll reach a power. like, oh, I get it. Oh, oh that's it.
Speaker: And that's when when you know the guide, this was so two days or you know three days later, was like, no, buddy. You're not going to figure it out. like that no I was like, you know I need maybe couple of weeks. And he goes, no, it'll be like a lifetime.
Speaker: um So yeah, that that's the question. like it it is um It does clash. you know There's a congruence in some ways. um I don't know. I think life is full of contradictions. oh yeah I think that yes, my my engineering logics of AI brain wants the answer.
Speaker: um But that's, I think, that the most beautiful thing about it. right that it's It's like magic. you know it's like I'm really tearing up thinking about it. There's you can explain it.
Speaker: that that like There's something about it that's that that you... The more you try to touch it, the more it will disappear. It's something very ephemeral.
Speaker: um Yeah. and and like There's a strong part of me that's like, I wish I could wish i could be like, oh, here it is. like you like it's It's this emotion. I can name it. and this This is how the emotion. Everyone's like, oh, I i get it. and It's just...
Speaker: But that's the thing. I had this, I think it was like two weeks later when I had this more, I was like, oh, oh, I'm never, I'm never gonna like fully get it, you know? And so, yeah, I,
Speaker: And I agree. There's a strong part of me that's like, you know, not, you know, what I call like woo or tree hugging or whatever. And that's just, at the same time, I listened to it, you know, in Afghanistan, I you know, the life force, right? I really got to see like auras around the beings and things like that. And it was really like,
Speaker: You really start to understand that there there there might be more in the universe than just meets the eye, you know, from a sort of energetic perspective. And this was, and it's funny, you know, I i talked to the guy, at Dave, at some point. Two weeks later, I called him and I i needed another therapy session, you know. And and i I said, hey, man, I think that there's a couple of things. One, I think I got to experience it because was so darn fit.
Speaker: You know, he's like, yeah, definitely. And I said to, um, I said, um, it started happening at like 8,600. Is it isn't because we're literally the highest thing on earth at that point? Like, is it this entire mass or it's floating through space is kind of most closely connected the rest of the universe through that one little tabletop?
Speaker: You know, and the answer is like, yeah, like that's, that couldn't be it, you know, like, Yeah, i you know you' you've mentioned the the low the the little the well WhatsApp thread that I had going on. and I'm actually going to write a closure because now that I've sort of processed it and figured it out, and You know, what I'm going to write is, hey folks, so i I've, you know it's been a couple months and I've really had some time to kind of, you know, pull this this apart.
Speaker: and And the sort of two thoughts that really come to mind, you know, and and first, you know, it it is true what I said. It's it's it's not a mountain, it's something else. You know, and and there's kind of two paragraphs, for two seconds. First is like, i think it's quite doable.
Speaker: You know, if people ask me I'm like, yep, it's quite doable. And there's two conditions and those conditions are non-negotiable. The first is you need at least a year and a half. If you're sitting on a couch, you need a year and half to two years of just you know, six days a week training, you know, with, you know, Steve House. look That's literally it because it it will it will train you in a way that you you just don't, like you will be a superhuman by the end of it.
Speaker: Or a shout out to Coach Jerome who was actually your coach. I mean, he's the, I mean, um maybe i may may have taught him a few things, but... and with you Yeah, Jerome. I mean, thats for where do you find these guys? This guy's like, he's a feral, wild animal that like does not belong in civilization. And how he just and he's got the PLA door, right? He's got the the yeah the Nobel Prize of of of mountaineering. you know That's where I find him.
Speaker: Yeah, it's just that like he's he's not available on the weekends, you know, because he's obviously climbing, right? But like Sunday evening, go and get off some mountain. Like he still he hasn't showered. Like, you doing okay? I was like, dude, everything's fine. Relax, you know.
Speaker: But like, I mean, this is the kind of guy you're working with. And then it's just the way he trains, you know, like, you know, I kind of heard like, like whatever, dude, cry me river. Get back to the gym, you know. Yeah.
Speaker: ah But um yeah, he's he's just phenomenal, right? But I mean, like I said, I think one, the training. And then this is also what I don't get. People spend the kind of money and go an Everest expedition. Like, you know, if you were to work with a coach, that's like 4% of the cost, you know? Right.
Speaker: Like it's the one main, the only thing that's in your control is your physical fitness. You know, and people somehow like, oh, figure that part out. I'm like, I don't know. It doesn't make sense. ah And then then then the other is is, you know, the two conditions. One is the training. Two is is having the infrastructure and the oxygen.
Speaker: you know And that's where sort of Lucas came in. And I and i really did a lot of research. I i talked to most of the the outfits and on that on that mountain. and and i And I made my choice. um And I'm confident in this' there's other other great great expedition providers out there. Yeah.
Speaker: This was definitely the one that that I thought was a little bit different in the and the and the type of service and the infrastructure they can provide. But based on those two things, it's it's it's doable. You know, that like like you can get, and unless you have some some some reason, you know like you can take a regular 45, 55 year old person,
Speaker: put them on this training program in a year and a half and then then have them you know go up and i i would recommend doing a couple of like smaller mountains on the way but um so that's one and then two i think this this
Speaker: this thing you know this thing you you know experienced in that summit rigs this this it's kind of like beam this this this these moments of like having someone coming down and unclip from the rope and you're holding them, they're holding you and, you know, oxygen mask, you staring at a mask and oxygen mask is not really even ah a human face as they sort of go around you and reclip them to the rope to continue going down. It's just like really, really, um,
Speaker: fascinating you know there's just and and like just re-experiencing this sort of almost like cathedralic like it's a cathedral you know like dave you know would would oftentimes you know would at the beginning of the climb he'd say things like oh mother god everest mother goddess of the universe uh although like eyes like hippies you know they spend too much time on the mountain and Two weeks later, I'm sitting in Europe and I text them. I go, Mother Goddess of the Universe. I totally get it. It's it. That magic, holy cow, really something...
Speaker: that like magic like holy cow it's really like something like life-changing you know it really is like i'm just so much more grateful with my life i'm so much happier i'm so much less stress prone i'm like i'm just like i'm i'm so grateful i got to experience that it's just something like how do you explain it you know i think like the last part i would put is there's this article in the bbc with someone who's done it a bunch of times and and he says you know he closes the article he's ah it's an interview and he says you know
Speaker: no matter what they say about Everest, the crowds and and all of that and the deaths and everything else, it remains one of life's greatest adventures. And like, you know i kind of felt like crying, you know, like I think right my voice is a little shaky, but like it really is.
Speaker: It really is. It really is one of life's greatest adventures to to to to go there and and just sort of put together some group, you know, band of idiots, you know, they're going to go try this thing. You know, it's just some massive, massive mountain. You know, it's it's really big.
Speaker: You put this together and you say, hey, I'm going to do this. And then, yeah, yeah it
Speaker: yeah war One of life's greatest adventures. One of life's greatest adventures. And, you know, connect that back to what you said earlier about why wouldn't you want to write a masterpiece, paint a masterpiece, like right? Like that's, I think that there's something super, yeah, something that I certainly very much re relate to those words. So, yeah.
Speaker: And so, it's you know, it's like like you you, like what's modern technology has enabled is like, 15, 20 years ago, I'd have to live in the same town as you did to like pick this up. right Now with TrainingPeaks and Garmin and you know all these devices, it's kind of crazy. You got Jerome, right who's like literally won the top prize in mountaineering, is like your guy.
Speaker: You can literally call him up of the bubble. Hey, I need to figure out X, Y, Z, you know, like, you know, what he's not on some mountain. Right. But like, yeah. And text him live 24 seven. right Right. Yeah. Like he's literally like, I'm like freezing on the side of Mont Blanc. Like, yeah, this is what you need to do. You know, it's like,
Speaker: So I know you've been to Burning Man a couple of times and you had that experience where you walked into design transcendence, something, and an experience and a place that's been planned and built and permitted and and and created from nothing to facilitate a kind of a transcend transcendent experience for a group of people. Tining Mountains isn't designed in that way. Was that...
Speaker: how are how are these two things different, climbing a mountain and going to something like that? i mean, I can think about, you know, other things. I think sometimes just going to a musical concert with live music can be transcendent, right? um How are these different for you?
Speaker: i think that there's there's a lot of things that are actually, my knee-jerk reaction to what you said is, but they're very similar. who You know, and and the similarity is that, like,
Speaker: It's something that like, you know, a lot of people look at and they're like, well, why would you want to do that? Like, that sounds, you know, dangerous and uncomfortable and and really sort of out there. Like, ah why, why do that? Yeah, I think my knee-jerk reaction you said is that they're, they're very similar.
Speaker: You know, there's definitely differences and and and I'll tell you what the main difference is I think in both cases, you're doing something out of the ordinary and that's just been the start of my life. You know, I, I, I,
Speaker: I find that one of the most fascinating things in the world is when someone gives you a window into who they are. who and i And I've hung out with people like in in Afghanistan. I've hung with people that sold large-scale weapons. weapons i hung out with people like and And when they really show you their life, it's just fascinating. I'm always like, wow, that's kind of like, what ah bit what an interesting experiment to be like that person.
Speaker: Yeah. And so for me, like, you know, whether like going to Burning Man or like it doesn't, you know, I've done Machu Picchu. I've done lots of stuff where I'm like, oh, let's let's let's do that. Let's try that.
Speaker: You know, it's always the same. It's always like an incredible amount of preparation, research. Like, you know, I'll take this kind of risk like once every decade or so. you know I'm good and it and it takes me you know two three years to kind of shift through it um oh ah obviously you know after Denali like you're training you're on this sort of like train that's moving you know you don't want to wait a decade before you do you know Everest like that's one reason why it was compressed you know um But that's the similarity of it. it's It's that sort of let's see, let's unfold the card. Let's see what's on the other side.
Speaker: That's how I've chosen to live my life. Like, why would you not want to see that? And it's sort of interesting to me. Like, no one's saying you got to like it. No one's saying, they're like oh this is going to be my thing.
Speaker: But the experience, I think like everybody should should do a tandem skydive once. you know Everybody should climb a 4,000-meter peak once. once You know, like just kind of going out that doesn't like those whole world. Like for me, it was like this whole world of like mountaineering. It's like a whole bunch of people around the world that like are like, you know, ah fanatical about this thing. You know, like, what is it?
Speaker: Why? You know, um the big difference, though, is that the the the big difference, um you know, is is the the the discipline and the effort required.
Speaker: you know and i And I think oftentimes like you know there's there's this latest craze of folks that are like you know doing these psychedelic retreats and whatnot. It's like, yeah, you go somewhere and you do this thing and like you come back and like, oh, it really like shook up a lot of things and I've learned XYZ.
Speaker: There's not ah usually a lot of like effort or skill required. And for me at this stage of my life, I'm 44,
Speaker: I really prefer things where you need to put you know a good amount of time and effort into it to to get something out the other end. you know Especially with this where it's it's such a like healthy you know way to live life. right i I don't think climbing Everest is necessarily healthy, but the training for it. you know like Now, it's interesting. i don't think I can see myself without i don't know, six or eight hours of exercise a week. i I just, I don't think I can do it anymore because it's been so long where I'm i'm exercising, you know? Yeah. I've got, you know, so many things in my repertory. want to do a stairmaster, go running, go and lift weights and so on and so forth. So like, um yeah, I think that's the fundamental difference. I think it
Speaker: At my age, I prefer things where, you know, it it probably has some kind of a health factor. It probably has some kind of like large amount of effort required, you know, to unlock something that that like not a lot of people get to unlock. Like that's kind of, I think it might be, you know, in my twenties, you know, was a little bit different, you know.
Speaker: yeah i was ah yeah busy busy you know my 16 17 you know skateboard and and a beer right you know and i was kind of the extent of what i could do but i said i mean i've grown up you know and this is yeah this is kind of a grown-up playground you know yeah yeah yeah i think that you know i've i've always thought that So, I mean, the root of Uphill Athlete itself is because comes from, you know, me having my accident back in 2010 and then needing something to kind of do during my, you know, two-year recovery. That led to the publication of Training for the New Albertism, which is what gave birth to Uphill Athlete the without any planning on our part.
Speaker: And the whole reason I went in that direction is as I was, like, thinking about you know, I was reduced to not being able to walk, right? Like I couldn't, I was in a wheelchair in my own home. Like I was really, really, really physically messed up, but I didn't know if I was going to, if that was, if I was ever going to even be able to climb anything at all. And let alone continue as a professional climber. And when I looked around, like, okay, this if, what do I do? Do I go back to school for something? You know, like there's, i have a a number of interests, interests,
Speaker: do I just go in a totally different direction and go become a pilot, which is what my original, part of my original plan in life. Or, and and my reflection was like, you know,
Speaker: Climbing mountains is a form of transcendence. It is a pathway to ah transcendent experiences. We all need those in our lives. It's how we, especially, I think, in in the modern era. Like, I don't know that people needed those 200 years ago when survival and and and the the world was different. But given where we are now, and...
Speaker: If I could help more people have that kind of experience and the, the training is like the cover. Right. it's It's actually not the result.
Speaker: The result is the transcendence. That's what I'm really trying to guide people to. The training is just sort of, like you know, the thing you do along the way to get there. Like the destination, I guess I should say, is ah is having an experience like what you had on Everest specifically. But also, you know, we've talked about Denali and other times.
Speaker: and that the training is sort of the trick and part of the part of the price of admission. and I think that they're inversely proportional. I think that the, you know, I went and saw The Cure in concert a couple months ago.
Speaker: And that was a fully transcendent experience. I was like, we were like, you know, a couple rows back from the stage. And they, I mean, I had no expectations, but it was, they were incredible.
Speaker: And I mean, it was mind blowing. you know, a couple days later, it was sort of gone, right? Like it was incredible. And it wasn't that deep in the end.
Speaker: Whereas I explained like how there's climbs I did 30 years ago that I think about on a weekly basis and that I can still give myself, as you said, feeling goosebumps or, or, or, or having tears because of those those experiences are so meaningful or so intense or so moving. And I think that those are are very different things. And I think that both ah all are out we need all of it.
Speaker: like we need We need both. We need all of these things. So it's really interesting to to hear that kind of connection for you. Yeah, I think like it's interesting when you were talking. like a I think we we maybe oh don't fully agree on this one.
Speaker: And and and here's here's why, I think, you know, in the sense of like, is the point these transcendent experiences, um I don't know, i would I would strongly feel that if you are gonna go do a climb because you want the transcendent experience, there's a very high probability you won't get it. 100% agree. You know, and it's it's like, if if you're open to whatever comes, there's there's a much higher probability you'll have one of these like life altering, you know, experiences.
Speaker: the thing that a lot of people are like well you know like tell me i want to do everest what do i need to do and i'm like well here you know i you know trained for five and a like five and a half years i'm like no but it was like for other mountains right yeah you'll do like nine months and you can take a couple months off then you can do like six months you know like you know and and truthfully you'll probably need to do that for you know two three years depending on fast you know you you go through it and everyone's like oh my god i'm like yeah but but the the point of the journey Like, like the, because I've been an athlete for five and a half years, like i will, I will basically have this in my life for life.
Speaker: Yeah. That is my default state. Now I, I, I cannot imagine a life where I don't do, you wake up on a Saturday and maybe go for an hour or two on, you know, it's, it's, it's, and it, that thing that like, it's changed who I am.
Speaker: And that's, in my mind, more valuable than the transcendent experience i had in Everest, which, interestingly enough, that really did change who I am as well. And that's something that does seem like it's going to be around for a lot longer.
Speaker: You know, the the thing I'm trying to say is that the the training that that that I've done with you guys
Speaker: it's not going anywhere. You know, it's it's part of wham. It's a very solid thing that has really changed in my life where, you know, i i know, like, i mean, these days I go to the gym, I'm like, it's a very familiar environment. Didn't used to be the case.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, I'm sure there's listeners that are like, and I go to the gym. I'm kind of like i don't, i don't really know what I'm supposed to be doing here. And maybe everybody knows that I don't know what I'm doing here. You know, like, whereas nowadays I'm like, you know, I've spent so much time in these gyms. Like I kind of really know what it is. And i think to me that,
Speaker: you know, change who I am through the the the exercise and the discipline and knowing my body and all those kind of things, right? Like being in some, you know, YMCA gym in Prague in the basement with some guy who, you know, you know used to be ah a gold medal, you know, cyclist and is now fricking my finger to measure a lactate threshold. Like, you know, like you end up in these situations where realize that this whole world of athleticism and sports, right? And like, now you're part of it.
Speaker: And so to me, that is the thing that I think is the part I would focus on or is the most valuable, you know? and the transcendent experience is like, will come when you least expect it. Like I, cause I've done it before. I did Denali. I did not want to, I did not expect there was going to be this kind of a, this kind of a insane experience.
Speaker: And, and, um and those will be things that that that they'll happen, you know, out the blue. And it's, it's amazing. Don't bet on it. You know, the other stuff you're getting is like, you can definitely bet on taking that to the bank. You know, like, like if you spend nine months training for something, that's, I think what most people realize is like, Oh, I got train for nine months. I'm like, Hey, you get to do that.
Speaker: And then that's what I also, but I was the same way. i was like, Oh my God, what a pin in the ass. Like look at all the time I'm putting into it and blah, blah, blah. And then suddenly i realized i was like, Oh, like now it's part of, part of me, you know? and that's great.
Speaker: Yeah. It's the difference between wanting to climb Everest to be the person that climbed Everest and becoming wanting to become the person that can climb Everest. Those are different. difference Absolutely. kind of And the transcendence only happens when the ego dies at least a little bit, right? And you don't know when that's going to happen. And I think that that's that's part of it too. And, you know, it's like there's a...
Speaker: Yeah, there's ah there is a randomness to that. I think it's been... it right like Sorry interject, but something exactly believe that this something really interesting, which people are like, what was the summit? And I'm like, funnily enough, the summit was like cool, but the the last, that like summit ridge... And and it's interesting, like I wasn't thinking like, oh I'm going to have summited Everest in 30 minutes. I was just like looking around like, what the heck is going on?
Speaker: You know, like there was no part of me and that was like, oh, I can't wait to stand on top of it. It's just like, holy cow, this is so cool. oh So yeah, like definitely, I feel like wasn't this like egotistical, like, oh I'm going go be the guy I stood on top of that earth. So yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's super interesting. Well, you have another big objective coming that I know is going to be hard. a Beach honeymoon, I believe is in, in your future.
Speaker: So marriage marriage, marriage, marriage, people ask me what's that? I'm like marriage, marriage is the next service. Yeah. Everyone I've talked it's always hard. Well, I heard one. I'm no expert. I hope you're there. but But I believe in it. I believe in I believe in the trends and the the transformation that can happen there, too. So thank you so much for sharing your experience, allowing me to be part of your journey in the way that you have, Renee. It's been i one of the one of the things that I enjoy most about, you know, running a pill athlete these last almost 10 years is
Speaker: getting to be part of these stories in some way. And I wouldn't be part of it if I didn't have these conversations with you, both online, offline, ah in Prague, all over the place. So let's, let's keep that up. I really am grateful for that. And Thank you.
Speaker: Hey, Steve, as you see, like my and I got the prayer flags and the picture of Denali and and all of that's what you've you've really unlocked for me. you know and And I think the most important thing isn't really the mountains, but like to to to be an athlete.
Speaker: That's the thing that is like I'll cherish like more. Truthfully, I cherish more than anything else. right and then you've really ah You're guy that I unlocked. in you and Jerome, you know the the person that you introduced me to, read that like unlocked this in a way that...
Speaker: not only did I climb it, but I got to enjoy it. You know, yeah I was really like so much safety buffer in the and the tank to do it. um Yeah. That's just like really incredible. And I'm so grateful to you and the work you've done and like, yeah, what you've introduced me to. So thank you.
Speaker: I cherish it. You're very welcome. You're very welcome. It's been been a great journey. So thanks for telling your story and to everyone listening, thanks for storytelling well.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: real quick before you go, everything we publish, the articles, new podcast episodes, and the live webinars are announced first in our newsletter. You can elect to receive between one and three newsletters a month written by myself and the coaching team. And if you want them, sign up at UphillAthlete.com.
Speaker: Thanks for listening and we'll see you in the next one.
