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Teaching Challenging Conversations with Leah and Rena Dunbar
63 Plays2 years ago
On today’s episode: Educators Leah and Rena Dunbar
Leah and Rena Dunbar are twin sisters and educators, committed to community building, listening, and engaging in Courageous Conversations about race, gender, and class. Leah is a language arts and social studies specialist at the Lane Education Service District and Rena is a project specialist at the University of Oregon and works with indigenous communities.
Topics:
- 02:17 Creating a Courageous Conversations course
- 05:30 The “circle” of time and the backlash to discussions around race
- 09:30 Developing ethnic studies in Oregon
- 14:08 Community building around art and words
- 18:23 Disrupting the school-to-prison pipeline
- 25:51 Restructuring classrooms to encourage collaboration
Recommended
Transcript
Behaviors as Language in Students
00:00:11
Speaker
One of the things that I came to realize when I taught sixth grade is that behaviors are language.
00:00:18
Speaker
That, you know, often that students don't have the verbal words for come out in the physical embodiments, which is another reason why I thought courageous conversations was so important, or ethnic studies, you know, vocabulary is so important for youngers.
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:42
Speaker
Welcome to How to Have Kids Love Learning, where we explore ideas and strategies for parents and educators that help students thrive.
00:00:50
Speaker
I'm your host, Ed Madison.
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm a professor and researcher at the University of Oregon and serve as executive director of the Journalistic Learning Initiative, a nonprofit organization that empowers middle and high school students to discover their voice, improve academic outcomes,
00:01:05
Speaker
and become self-directed learners through project-based storytelling.
00:01:09
Speaker
Teaching students to become effective communicators is at the heart of JLI's work.
Meet Leah and Rena Dunbar
00:01:38
Speaker
We're here today with Leah and Rena Dunbar.
00:01:40
Speaker
They are twin sisters and both educators committed to community building, listening and undoing oppression by way of courageous conversations, which is inspired by a book by Glenn Singleton that speaks to the development of honest discussions about race, gender and class.
Origins of Courageous Conversations
00:01:56
Speaker
Leah is currently a language arts and social studies specialist at Lane Education Service District.
00:02:01
Speaker
And Rena is a project coordinator at the University of Oregon.
00:02:03
Speaker
And I think working with indigenous communities, correct?
00:02:08
Speaker
Mm-hmm, yeah.
00:02:09
Speaker
Welcome.
00:02:09
Speaker
Welcome, you two.
00:02:10
Speaker
I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.
00:02:16
Speaker
And let's start by talking about the Courageous Conversations work that you did here in Oregon.
00:02:25
Speaker
What, for those who might not, I mean, it's a bold title.
00:02:29
Speaker
So what was the essence of the course?
00:02:34
Speaker
Well, yeah.
00:02:36
Speaker
It's a bold title, and I knew that that title would draw students into the classroom and into the work of looking at their own identities and the factors that shape those identities and their sense of self in the
Impact of Student-Led Initiatives
00:02:56
Speaker
world.
00:02:56
Speaker
And actually, I
00:02:59
Speaker
I started the class in collaboration with three other teachers in my former school district, but I was the only one that called my class Courageous Conversations because I knew that name was so powerful and it really resonated with students.
Developing Ethnic Studies
00:03:17
Speaker
But really what was the true genesis of the class was
00:03:23
Speaker
A group of students of color from across the district had been convened for a couple years.
00:03:33
Speaker
Interestingly, we were part of a group of schools that were part of the Minority Student Achievement Network.
00:03:42
Speaker
This was way back in the 2000s.
00:03:45
Speaker
And those students in our district who had the opportunity to participate in some youth leadership opportunities and national conferences, you know, came back from those experiences, you know, activated and ready to see the experience that they were having, um,
00:04:07
Speaker
translated into a class experience that other students would get to have.
00:04:12
Speaker
So that was kind of the genesis of Courageous Conversations in the first iteration.
00:04:21
Speaker
And then over the years, the model kind of morphed into an ethnic studies prototype.
Courageous Conversations Today
00:04:32
Speaker
And that's where Rena and I really began to collaborate
00:04:36
Speaker
And she was in a middle school and I was doing the same work in high school.
00:04:43
Speaker
And we started to really kind of push on the structure of the class to have some distinct protocols and rituals and characteristics that I think came to kind of define us.
00:05:02
Speaker
courageous conversations like 10 years later, 15 years later.
00:05:07
Speaker
And so at this point, though, Rena and I are still, we're not in teaching in the district that we were
Challenges in Education
00:05:15
Speaker
in.
00:05:15
Speaker
The class still exists in some several middle schools and high schools in the district, though some of them call it courageous and some of them call it some other things.
00:05:30
Speaker
So.
00:05:30
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:05:32
Speaker
And, you know, I think we're in a unfortunate era where it seems like, um, certainly in certain parts of the country, they want conversations to be anything but courageous.
00:05:43
Speaker
Um, maybe Rena, you can speak to, I mean, what, what do you make of just where we are?
00:05:50
Speaker
I think we thought we had, we had, um,
00:05:53
Speaker
you know, really surpass some of the stuff that's rearing its head now in terms of just resistance to talking about race and gender and ethnicity, even being outlawed in many states.
Personal Background and Influence
00:06:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:09
Speaker
I mean, there's just, hi, Ed, thanks for having us and giving us an opportunity to kind of reminisce on the
00:06:19
Speaker
the genesis of this course.
00:06:21
Speaker
And also, you know, it just makes me want to reminisce on the genesis of our lives because for Leah and I, because we are black biracial, our mom was a white special education teacher.
00:06:37
Speaker
She passed away five years ago.
00:06:38
Speaker
And our dad is 91 and is black that she
00:06:44
Speaker
You know, we were born into a world where having conversations around race kind of did push the boundaries in many cases, you know.
Societal Cycles and Hope
00:06:57
Speaker
I mean, it was almost illegal, I think, for our parents to get married and our parents who were teachers also didn't have their teaching licenses renewed back in the 60s when they fell in love.
00:07:09
Speaker
And so we were born in California.
00:07:11
Speaker
But because of all that, I feel like Leah and I were always having, quote unquote, courageous conversations or at least conversations around race and racialized conversations that maybe...
00:07:25
Speaker
people who lived in different worlds or different communities with different identities maybe weren't having.
00:07:33
Speaker
And so to go back to like kind of where we are in this moment, well, Leah and I were born in 1972 and I've come to the conclusion that I think that time actually doesn't move in a line.
00:07:48
Speaker
I think it moves in a circle.
00:07:50
Speaker
And there's a lot of, um,
00:07:54
Speaker
maybe hopefully a spiral actually, um, more than a circle that there is a direction,
Inclusive Curriculum and History
00:08:00
Speaker
right.
00:08:00
Speaker
And the arc of justice perhaps, but, um, that, that what's happening right now is a, is a, a backlash or a white lash or, um,
00:08:12
Speaker
you know, some kind of push against the growth and the movement that has happened where students don't want, you know, students are exposed to so much more media, they know so much more and they want their classrooms
00:08:27
Speaker
and their curriculum to reflect, you know, I think more narratives and more full coverage of reality and of history, certainly, and herstory and ourstory than what they've been told.
00:08:46
Speaker
And so I think that right now is just a kind of a fear moment.
00:08:52
Speaker
And it's, it's probably not that surprising considering, you know, what's, you know, kind of happened in history and we do kind of move in cycles, but it is disheartening in some ways.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah.
Adoption of Black History Textbook
00:09:06
Speaker
I think that's all I'll say about that.
00:09:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:10
Speaker
I know that you both earned your doctorates and I think, were you both in the education and methodology policy program?
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah, we were.
00:09:22
Speaker
We had to do it together.
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:28
Speaker
Leah, let's talk a little bit about language arts and the work.
00:09:33
Speaker
I know that you adopted a textbook on Black history that is being used throughout Lane County.
00:09:45
Speaker
And I'm just curious,
00:09:48
Speaker
just about the decision to do that and whether it's been accepted or there's been any pushback or
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah, the work that I did and Rena did something related was around ethnic studies implementation.
00:10:06
Speaker
And so, you know,
Statewide Educational Movements
00:10:08
Speaker
my passion is around representative curriculum histories that are inclusive and reflect the lives and the families and the experiences of our students.
00:10:22
Speaker
And so,
00:10:23
Speaker
um the black history 365 text
00:10:29
Speaker
you know, has been a really great experience in learning how curriculum can inform and expand what schools offer students.
00:10:47
Speaker
And so, you know, it's been, you know, an intentional implementation.
00:10:54
Speaker
which I'm very happy to say that the agency that I work with has supported and supported by providing tax to the rural school districts who had expressed interest in being part of this implementation.
00:11:15
Speaker
And so part of my work has been to provide professional development to teachers
00:11:22
Speaker
in that implementation.
00:11:24
Speaker
It's a pretty overwhelming textbook because it begins in Africa.
00:11:31
Speaker
It's basically about three inches thick for people who are listening.
00:11:37
Speaker
And it's quite impressive.
00:11:39
Speaker
And that actually is not even representative of what's contained in the book because it's
00:11:44
Speaker
full of QR codes of all kinds of documents, both primary documents as well as articles and artifacts and music videos and all sorts of things to really communicate the scale and the scope of
00:12:03
Speaker
I mean, obviously, even this text can't capture Black history, you know, but it comes closer than I think most texts have done up until this point.
00:12:13
Speaker
And so it's been interesting to try to support buildings and moving this work.
00:12:23
Speaker
forward and teachers are pretty overwhelmed.
00:12:30
Speaker
But there's teachers out there who want to use this textbook.
00:12:35
Speaker
We have the Ethnic Studies State Standards in Oregon to fall back on, which is a really beautiful thing.
00:12:41
Speaker
I think that kind of speaks to your previous question as well.
00:12:46
Speaker
And I think for people who may not know much about our state, you know, we don't have much diversity here.
00:12:51
Speaker
So it's quite an accomplishment.
00:12:56
Speaker
It is.
00:12:57
Speaker
It is an accomplishment.
00:12:59
Speaker
And, you know, it's really a testament to the power of student voice.
00:13:04
Speaker
You know, the students who and community groups that agitated for ethnic studies standards to be developed.
00:13:14
Speaker
And they are part of our social science standards that will be implemented.
00:13:19
Speaker
Well, they're ready to implement now, but they will be required for all classrooms across the state in 2026.
00:13:28
Speaker
And so Black History 365 is a piece of fulfilling the requirements of that mandate, that state mandate.
00:13:39
Speaker
as well as tribal history, shared history, which is another curricular mandate that we have in Oregon that is quite unique and situates us, I think, on the forefront, you know, in the country, as far as representative curriculum.
Youth Programs and Expression
00:13:58
Speaker
In this case, it developed, you know, with the nine federally recognized tribes.
00:14:03
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:14:09
Speaker
Rena, I know that you were involved with something called Youth Open Mic for Eugene and served as a facilitator.
00:14:21
Speaker
It came to me because you were talking about student voice and the importance of student voice.
00:14:27
Speaker
Tell me about that program.
Weapon of Choice Voice Program
00:14:30
Speaker
I'm so glad you asked about that because Leah and I were both involved in that and I actually feel like
00:14:40
Speaker
It might be one of the things that we're most proud of being involved in here in Eugene in terms of really bringing youth across the city or the city.
00:14:55
Speaker
I think this is a city, across the community together.
00:15:00
Speaker
So one of the strengths that Leah and I have, of course, is being a twee or being two people.
00:15:07
Speaker
That's our twin pronoun.
00:15:09
Speaker
And so I was, my first job teaching was at one high school in Eugene and Leah was at the other.
00:15:17
Speaker
And so
00:15:18
Speaker
What we ended up doing was organizing an opportunity for students to come and share their writing, their poetry, their songs, their raps, their art once a month for 10 years at a local university.
00:15:35
Speaker
restaurant that just, you know, morning glory, just, just the hub of the community.
00:15:41
Speaker
And it just really grew and the kids, you know, it was their space.
00:15:46
Speaker
We had youth MCs and Leah and I just kind of put up the flyers and, you know, that the students designed every month.
00:15:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:55
Speaker
It was just, it actually was really student led and, but it was just really profound.
00:16:01
Speaker
In fact, people will still talk about, you know, they're adults now.
00:16:05
Speaker
people will still talk about that community.
00:16:09
Speaker
I mean, it really just was this community building around art and words and empowerment and what teenagers are going through and thinking and feeling and, and, um,
00:16:23
Speaker
We had students start dating each other from across schools and become musicians and performers.
00:16:37
Speaker
And it really started there.
00:16:38
Speaker
And so it was called A Weapon of Choice Voice.
00:16:43
Speaker
And Leah's class actually started it.
00:16:45
Speaker
Now that I think about it, let me throw it back to her in her first teaching position.
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:52
Speaker
And it actually just to date us even more, the year that we started
00:16:58
Speaker
The event was 2001.
00:17:00
Speaker
And so it was following 9-11 and it was my first, you know, official teaching position after graduating from teacher school.
00:17:12
Speaker
And it was a class that was supposed to be learning about spoken word and the students immediately started.
00:17:22
Speaker
transformed the trajectory of the course by saying, hey, we want to do this.
00:17:27
Speaker
We don't want to watch this.
00:17:29
Speaker
We don't want to learn about this.
00:17:31
Speaker
We want to produce this and perform this.
00:17:33
Speaker
And that's what they did.
Incarcerated Youth and Systemic Issues
00:17:37
Speaker
And, you know, and it just continued for the next 10 years until, you
00:17:42
Speaker
The demands of family and other professional responsibilities made organizing, which organizing is a lot, you know, made organizing just one more thing, you know, that just had to had to go.
00:17:57
Speaker
But anyway, yeah.
00:18:00
Speaker
it was weapon of choice voice.
00:18:02
Speaker
And I think that that really, um, captures, um, a lot of, um, our epistemology when it comes to how we, how we move through, how we move through the world and, and want to support, um, our youth, you know, in doing so.
00:18:22
Speaker
Now you've also done work with incarcerated youth.
00:18:26
Speaker
Um, and that's a, um,
00:18:29
Speaker
that's a population that often is forgotten.
00:18:33
Speaker
And I'm just curious about your, your work around, around that.
00:18:37
Speaker
I, you know, there's so much talk about the, the school to prison pipeline.
00:18:41
Speaker
And I think, you know, I did a documentary on this subject and also I've just been touched by it, you know, in, in ways that hadn't expected.
00:18:50
Speaker
And so I know, you know, to me, what I observe is there seems to be such a,
00:18:59
Speaker
ease and access to firearms that didn't exist not even three or four years ago that is somewhat part of the problem but then also just there's a scholar I know that we both heard about in graduate school I can't think of her name right now but she uses the term pushed out instead of instead of dropout that students often through disciplinary practices and things like that are sort of
00:19:28
Speaker
given the message that they don't belong.
00:19:29
Speaker
And that's, that's part of the equation.
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:33
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:38
Speaker
I mean, I think that's a, yeah, there's a heaviness obviously, you know, to that, that subject because, you know, incarcerated youth typically lie at the intersection of all of our, our systems of oppression.
00:19:56
Speaker
you know, often, right?
00:19:59
Speaker
You know, they're marginalized for, you know, number of reasons.
00:20:04
Speaker
Could be socioeconomic.
00:20:06
Speaker
It could be, you know, identity factors, race, gender, orientation, disability.
00:20:13
Speaker
And then, you know, I'm,
00:20:19
Speaker
you know, we live in
Behavior as Communication Revisited
00:20:21
Speaker
this culture that really glorifies, you know, power over and gun violence, gun, well, I won't say gun violence yet, but just guns are kind of that metaphor in our culture for what makes you powerful.
00:20:37
Speaker
So you take, you know, youth who are the most impressionable
00:20:43
Speaker
and unformed when it comes to, you know, making decisions that are, that are, that, you know, are, I guess.
00:20:54
Speaker
Consequential.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah, consequential, you know, and, and I mean, and that's who, that's who we tend to see, you know, in, in that,
00:21:06
Speaker
in populations that are juvenile justice connected, I mean, it's either weapons or substances, right?
00:21:16
Speaker
And these are not intrinsic to young people.
00:21:23
Speaker
I mean, these are addictions.
00:21:28
Speaker
I will say even the guns are an addiction that are modeled to them from the society.
00:21:36
Speaker
Right now.
00:21:37
Speaker
And so we know about just given the music and the hyper masculinity imagery and everything else about, you know, perceptions of honor and all that stuff that that's get interpreted by undeveloped minds as as our brains as being a pathway.
00:21:55
Speaker
Right.
00:21:56
Speaker
And it's not just, you know, the, the, the young minds, right.
00:22:00
Speaker
When I think about educators and
00:22:03
Speaker
and how we reinforce obedience and how we get compliance and, you know, certain behaviors are acceptable.
Critique of Educational Standards
00:22:11
Speaker
And one of the things that I came to realize when I taught sixth grade is that behaviors are language that, you know, often that students don't have the verbal words for come out in the physical, you know,
00:22:30
Speaker
embodiments, which is another reason why I thought courageous conversations was so important, or ethnic studies, you know, vocabulary is so important for youngers, and to teach that.
00:22:44
Speaker
And, you know, I taught at a very large comprehensive high school for a long time with students who were labeled
00:22:53
Speaker
at risk and you know, it just immediately opened my eyes to these students have been labeled by the time they're entering ninth grade to be the outsiders and to do to indeed be pushed out.
00:23:06
Speaker
And so, and so I quickly realized, you know, for me as an educator, I had to figure out how to communicate and teach my students how to communicate.
00:23:18
Speaker
in ways that would keep them in the classroom so that they could learn.
Personal Connections to Incarceration
00:23:27
Speaker
I think more teachers are realizing that now, for sure.
00:23:30
Speaker
But I think that we have an entire education system that criminalizes our youth, and in particular certain populations, like Leo was listening before.
00:23:45
Speaker
the way that we grade students, the way that we treat students for being tardy to class criminalizes them.
00:23:53
Speaker
Right.
00:23:54
Speaker
If you don't, if the times tables aren't easy for you, you're criminalized.
00:23:59
Speaker
So, I mean, so it's not just even, I still have trouble with seven times eight.
00:24:06
Speaker
My mother, my mother taught school and then she would drill me every time we were in the car.
00:24:10
Speaker
I'm joking, but not really.
00:24:16
Speaker
We internalize so much about who belongs and who doesn't and what's supposed to happen to them.
00:24:24
Speaker
And yeah, then we could go on and on and on partaking that.
00:24:28
Speaker
But the work that we, you know, the work that I've done a lot of work to try to keep students in classrooms around, you know, restorative practices and things like that.
00:24:39
Speaker
And
00:24:39
Speaker
and trying to remove grading systems that harm.
Benefits of Alternative Education
00:24:43
Speaker
But Leah and I have not on purpose.
00:24:49
Speaker
We've been really close to adjudicated youth in our family and in our community.
00:24:55
Speaker
And so we've been kind of interested in that.
00:24:59
Speaker
And then we were teaching The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander in our Courageous Conversations classes.
00:25:08
Speaker
And, you know, and so certainly that inspired Leah and I to, you know, to want to work more with adjudicated youth, you know, and... Who often are the children of parents who are incarcerated?
00:25:24
Speaker
as well.
00:25:25
Speaker
So, you know, just kind of that realization around belonging, you know, kind of is that, you know, that thread that, or not belonging, right?
00:25:39
Speaker
Is, is, is a, you know, well, just shapes powerful narratives that become, you know, self-fulfilling profit prophecies often.
00:25:52
Speaker
Now I know, Rena, you've taught at alternative schools too, where there's a smaller student population and perhaps more of an opportunity to really get to know students.
00:26:02
Speaker
I mean, I think that one of the structural issues with large schools, particularly secondary schools, is teachers may have, you know, six or seven periods.
00:26:12
Speaker
where they've all of a sudden they've taken their touch points with so many students, it's very hard for them to really develop a relationship with any one of them, you know, and I just don't know how we get around that just in terms of the way schools are structured.
00:26:25
Speaker
But I'm just curious what the difference that you've seen with smaller alternative programs.
Experiential Learning and Wealth Disparities
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:26:34
Speaker
Yeah, compassion fatigue is real.
00:26:36
Speaker
And the more students you have, the harder it is to care deeply and get to know them deeply.
00:26:46
Speaker
You know, so I definitely, I mean, that's kind of what led me into alternative education really is, um,
00:26:55
Speaker
you know, having teaching at the largest high school in Eugene and with huge classes, but, and, and not wanting to be that kind of teacher that saw my students as numbers.
00:27:07
Speaker
But yeah, so I ended up going into alternative programs and loved, loved it, loved it.
00:27:17
Speaker
And one of the, sorry, I have a shepherd out there barking, but, but,
00:27:24
Speaker
thinking systemically, I think that we probably wouldn't have as large of classes if we didn't have so many different subject matters and requirements.
00:27:43
Speaker
I think that if we could restructure how we're learning and
00:27:50
Speaker
what is considered important knowledge and get some of our students outside at different times and have a more place-based type of curriculum instead of math, language arts,
00:28:06
Speaker
the language, the health, the social studies.
00:28:09
Speaker
I mean, how can language arts and social studies be separated?
00:28:13
Speaker
How is that even a reality?
00:28:16
Speaker
You know, it just doesn't make sense.
00:28:18
Speaker
And there's so many things in nature that math and science, I mean, they all go together.
00:28:24
Speaker
And so, you know, so a restructuring is certainly in order.
Competitive Cultures in Schools
00:28:31
Speaker
And I remember reading something, gosh, I wish I was the kind of person that could whip out the names of articles, but I remember that there was an article that we read.
00:28:42
Speaker
Some professor will be listening and they'll be like, I know that article.
00:28:45
Speaker
That was about how, you know, when you have students attending, say, wealthier schools or private schools, they're not receiving the same kinds of information.
00:28:58
Speaker
Learning opportunities.
00:29:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:00
Speaker
Even teaching styles.
00:29:02
Speaker
Learning experiences.
00:29:03
Speaker
The way that teachers teach is different.
00:29:05
Speaker
The way that students are taught to absorb information instead of the sit and get, drill, test, standards, testing, testing, testing.
00:29:17
Speaker
That doesn't happen in the same way in schools that are in different socioeconomic areas.
00:29:24
Speaker
sectors.
00:29:25
Speaker
And so there's a certain type of education that's happening with these huge classrooms and really disengaged topics and the standards being removed from experiential
00:29:40
Speaker
relevant types of opportunities for the whole classroom community.
00:29:46
Speaker
And so I would just restructure the whole
Collaborative Learning Environments
00:29:50
Speaker
thing.
00:29:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:51
Speaker
You know, in my observation of observing both, so levels fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, it occurs to me that kids, particularly when they first come into middle school, there's this sort of still sense of
00:30:08
Speaker
And then within a year or two, they start to realize that, you know, maybe their their pal is getting pulled out into another reading group or, you know, there's this maybe I must not be as smart.
00:30:21
Speaker
And they start to then sort of collect evidence for whatever it is I can't write or not good at math or whatever else.
00:30:29
Speaker
that by the time they're in the 11th or 12th grade, these are really rigid beliefs that are really hard to, you know, to intervene with.
00:30:37
Speaker
And I think it's just this sort of competitive nature of what we set up in schools that, you know, somehow these kids are supposed to be competing with each other as opposed to learning.
00:30:49
Speaker
That just doesn't work.
00:30:51
Speaker
And what do we want in our society?
00:30:53
Speaker
I mean, we want...
00:30:55
Speaker
people who can work together to collectively solve problems.
00:30:59
Speaker
Like that is what is needed.
00:31:01
Speaker
And why are our children whose minds are the most flexible?
00:31:06
Speaker
I certainly, right?
00:31:08
Speaker
Not actively engaging in the world that they live in.
00:31:12
Speaker
And they are, you know,
00:31:13
Speaker
communicating in a million different ways that they are not interested or engaged, um, in what's going on in schools right
Re-engaging Students in Learning
00:31:22
Speaker
now.
00:31:22
Speaker
In the ways that it's presented.
00:31:25
Speaker
So, um, yeah, we have thoughts.
00:31:27
Speaker
We have thoughts around that.
00:31:28
Speaker
I know there, there's been so many students that, you know, have come into my classroom and they're like, I don't like to learn.
00:31:34
Speaker
And I'm like, um, are you breathing?
00:31:38
Speaker
Um,
00:31:39
Speaker
who taught you that you didn't like to learn?
00:31:42
Speaker
Well, our school systems taught you that.
00:31:45
Speaker
And so, okay, let's work together to unlearn together so that we can get ready to learn something else that you actually are really passionate and inspired by because you, you know, you have so much to offer and, you know, all of our students have, you know, so many different gifts and,
00:32:03
Speaker
You know, good at so many different things.
00:32:05
Speaker
And we're not supposed to be, I don't think, good at every single thing, but, you know, collaborating.
00:32:10
Speaker
We could maybe do some stuff together.
00:32:13
Speaker
And when Leah and I, you know, maybe we're particularly aware of this because we were separated as young people.
00:32:23
Speaker
children in school, and we learn better together.
00:32:27
Speaker
We are co-cognitors.
00:32:30
Speaker
We think together.
00:32:32
Speaker
We create things together.
00:32:33
Speaker
And I think that kids actually love to do that.
00:32:37
Speaker
And
00:32:38
Speaker
So why are we, you know, separating students and you saying, oh, you're cheating by, you know, asking someone a question or trying to find out the answer from them.
00:32:48
Speaker
It's like, we all find out answers from each other.
00:32:51
Speaker
No one's getting anything new.
00:32:52
Speaker
Collaboration.
00:32:54
Speaker
Collaboration.
00:32:54
Speaker
Right, right, right.
00:32:56
Speaker
Well, we'll end it on that note.
Podcast Conclusion
00:32:58
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:32:59
Speaker
It's been a delight.
00:33:00
Speaker
I'm glad we were able to do this.
00:33:02
Speaker
And we'll talk again soon.
00:33:05
Speaker
Thanks.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yes.
00:33:06
Speaker
Thanks.
00:33:06
Speaker
Take care.
00:33:09
Speaker
Thanks for the conversation.
00:33:19
Speaker
How to Have Kids Love Learning is produced by the Journalistic Learning Initiative.
00:33:22
Speaker
For more information about our work, please visit journalisticlearning.com.