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E058: Robert Durst (Part 1)
1.4k Plays5 years ago
Robert Durst admitted to killing before-- a killing he swears was in self-defense. But what are the odds that a missing person case and another murder, both of which have links to Durst, are also cases of misunderstanding rather than foul play?
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcasting with Buzzsprout
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuthhounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you ever been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own. Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are,
00:00:21
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space in each other, we knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends and from where our listeners hail.
00:00:50
Speaker
Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform.
00:01:01
Speaker
So what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today. If you use our coffee and cases referral code 709-643 linked on Facebook and in our show notes, not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy.
00:01:24
Speaker
Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over a hundred thousand podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Now it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Childhood Trauma and Its Effects
00:01:39
Speaker
The man being interviewed looks straight at the interviewer and recalls one of the most traumatic experiences of his life.
00:01:49
Speaker
There's a tone of childish wonder that comes back to his voice when he recalls, at age seven, being walked to a window in his childhood home. The images that come back now must be haunting him by the look that's in his eye. The man remembers his father pointing to the boy where his mother is standing on the roof.
00:02:16
Speaker
Just as a child would, he remembers waving to mommy. Moments later, his mommy either slipped or jumped from that roof to her death. That memory is vivid. The next memory is the funeral, where he didn't understand at that young age what it all meant upon hearing that his mother was in the casket.
00:02:46
Speaker
He tried to stop the proceedings. Those memories never left him. While he had all the money in the world, no amount of money could bring his mother back, and no amount was enough to bring back happiness either. And that was the first time the young boy began to run.
00:03:09
Speaker
run from his problems, run from heartache, run from trouble, run from his family, run from questions, run from the world. The boy turned to a man and he never stopped running.
Exploring Robert Durst's Past
00:03:24
Speaker
It seemed to him that he was the antithesis of King Midas. Instead of gold, everything he touched ended in catastrophe.
00:03:35
Speaker
But his younger brother Douglas, while he admits that their mother did die tragically when his brother was only seven, denies that his brother saw their mother on the roof. And Douglas keeps a piece of pipe handy in case his brother makes a surprise visit. Did his brother have the touch of death?
00:04:01
Speaker
A curse that left a trail of unintended horrific consequences everywhere he ran? Or did his brother actually commit the heinous crimes that would render him a serial killer? This is the case of Robert Durst.
Podcast Anniversary Celebration
00:04:55
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:05:04
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:05:33
Speaker
You did it, Sleuthounds, and right in time for our one-year anniversary. You got coffee and cases to well over the 150 ratings on Apple Podcast. We can never, ever thank you enough. Coffee and cases has been on the air one year this week, and we're feeling blessed for the growth we've seen during that time. We're hopeful that 2021 will bring even greater things to the podcast. And as promised, we will be giving you a bonus episode. We thought to start 2021 off right
00:06:02
Speaker
We would release that episode on January 1st. We'll be sure to remind you next week so you won't forget. Thank you, Sleuth Hounds. You really are the best. Happy Anniversary Week, Maggie! I know! It's insane! I cannot believe we've been doing this one year. I know, it's crazy.
00:06:22
Speaker
It's been all my memories on Facebook. Oh, I know. It's so exciting. And Sleuth Hounds, I don't know if Maggie and I shared this with you, but when we started our show with the first three episodes, obviously we backdated the first two, we posted them on December 19th of 2019. And that day was strategic. And I had told Maggie about this, but Maggie, I don't think we've shared this with the Sleuth Hounds. I don't think we have.
00:06:50
Speaker
But that day, December 19th, is very special to me because that was my grandma's birthday. So the woman who made me me, the woman who taught me the power of stories and the power of compassion, and since she would have turned 100 on that day, it seemed only fitting that that was the day that we start our podcast.
00:07:14
Speaker
And Maggie, I have chosen a doozy of a case to celebrate our anniversary. Yeah, the intro has me pretty excited for the actual story. And I have to tell you and tell our Sloot Hounds, this case, I thought I would be able to tell it in one week, and there's just too much. So this is a case that will take two episodes to cover. Two partners. I know. We haven't done that since the beginning of it.
00:07:43
Speaker
So this week we are going to look at what we know about Robert Durst and next week we're going to explore
00:07:56
Speaker
some uncertainty. Oh, okay. Okay. So that's the plan. And you know, Maggie and I really like to delve into background as much as possible, not only for victims, but even for the perpetrators when we have information about them. Because I think that's super important. It helps us all to understand a little bit more.
Durst's Attempted Escape and Arrest
00:08:19
Speaker
Exactly.
00:08:20
Speaker
So Maggie and Sleuthhounds, you are actually going to hear a lot more about this case that I'm covering this week and next week because as soon as COVID allows, jury trials are set to resume about Robert Durst. Oh, so very current.
00:08:45
Speaker
Yes. Well, some of the crimes date back decades. Oh. Yeah. But the trial is current. So 77-year-old Robert Durst trial is, it's figured to last about five months. Wow. It was actually, I know. So there's a lot of evidence, a lot of witnesses, a lot. Now you can see why me just covering the highlights is gonna take two episodes.
00:09:15
Speaker
But he was set to go on trial in March, but obviously that was halted and the rest of the world due to coronavirus. What led to his arrest was the fact that after being accused of the murder of his best friend, just as he had done his whole life, Robert Durst ran. And he ran to New Orleans.
00:09:44
Speaker
which is where he was recently found before he's been in prison awaiting his trial. But when he was found by the FBI,
00:09:55
Speaker
checked into a hotel in New Orleans under an alias. He had in his possession a loaded 38 caliber revolver, around $42,000 in cash. Okay. Yeah. Five ounces of marijuana, which I don't know what that means, but apparently that's a lot. Yeah, I have no idea. I don't know. But apparently it's a lot. A latex face mask. It's like one of those realistic ones.
00:10:23
Speaker
and a map of Cuba. So it seemed to indicate his plan was to continue running until he was able to flee the country. So that was how he was most recently found and again he's been awaiting trial in prison so that he can't run and I know I mentioned in the intro
00:10:48
Speaker
he has run from everything in his life and you'll see it's been quite a lot of running though yeah and i mentioned just a second ago that when he was found in new orleans he was checked into a hotel under an alias which i mean again
00:11:05
Speaker
It makes sense. You wouldn't try to hide from authorities and check in under your own name. Right, that would be done. Which I'm sure people will probably have done that, but you know. Probably. But this was not the first time that Robert Durst had used an alias in his life.
00:11:22
Speaker
According to an article by Ken Daly, the arresting document noted the following as aliases that Robert Durst had used in the past.
00:11:38
Speaker
Dorothy Seiner, Everett Ward, Jim Terz, Morris Black, Diane Nguyen, Robert Dean Jasowski, James Cordes, Ralph Durst, James Kloste, James Fleishman, Emilio Vagnoni, and Johnny Smith.
00:11:57
Speaker
Okay, so this kind of creeps me out a little bit because how many people have we met maybe in our life that aren't who they say that they were? That's a lot of aliases. No. Well, let me just count right here. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. I'm sure that's probably not all of them. Right. Those are the ones that we know of. And I don't know if you noticed when I read them.
00:12:22
Speaker
But it's a mixture of both men and women. It is, yes. Yeah, so kind of odd. And I'm going to get into that here in just a second. And when he was arrested, now I mentioned that he was going to be on trial after being accused for the murder of his best friend. That's the trial that he's facing once the courts open back up. But Maggie,
00:12:46
Speaker
this not only wasn't the first time he'd used an alias, it also wasn't the first time that Robert Durst was on trial for murder. So what's he doing just walking around? Well, that's what I'm gonna cover in today's episode. Okay, perfect. So the things that we know, the person that Robert Durst admitted to killing
00:13:15
Speaker
His name was Morris Black. So one of his alias names? Yes. And you noticed that. Yeah. So again, I'll come back to that. But what's interesting, Maggie, is that the person who we know Robert Durst killed, Morris Black, would not have recognized the name Robert Durst.
00:13:39
Speaker
Well, at least he didn't think he knew Robert Durst. A name he would have recognized is Dorothy Signer, one of the aliens that I mentioned. So when Morse Black met Robert Durst, Robert Durst was actually trying to pass as a mute woman
00:14:03
Speaker
named Dorothy Signer, who had moved into one of the other rental units at 2213 Avenue K in Galveston, Texas, where Morris Black also resided. I mean, this is dedication, though, to your alternate life. Like, he's into this story. It's actually kind of smart to pass as a mute person, too, because then,
00:14:31
Speaker
You know, what if your voice gave it away? Well, now you can just not speak. And Dorothy Signer was, according to their landlord, a good tenant because Dorothy Signer had asked to go ahead and pay a full year in advance of rent. Wow. Yeah. So again, as a landlord, you're like, okay.
00:14:57
Speaker
She was hardly ever around, she never complained. And sometimes though, when the landlord would stop by just to check on things at that rental unit, while Dorothy wasn't there,
00:15:13
Speaker
Dorothy's brother-in-law. Are we putting this in air quotes? Yes, I'm so glad that you said yes. I'm glad we could tell in my voice. Yes, those were voice air quotes. Dorothy's brother-in-law. Yeah, so what the landlord didn't know was that there were never two separate people.
00:15:36
Speaker
Yeah, Dorothy kind of was the brother-in-law just out of the cross-dressing clothing and wig. So this is very
Murder of Morris Black
00:15:44
Speaker
Mrs. Doubtfire. It really is, except there's a much darker term. So yeah, so Dorothy was Robert Durst. Okay. So we've established that link. Durst was linked to the murder of Morris Black
00:16:04
Speaker
When some trash bags began washing ashore in the Galveston Bay and a teenage boy stumbled upon, I cannot imagine, a headless and limbless torso that had washed up and that teenage boy had called police. That's traumatizing. Absolutely. Definitely gonna have to have some therapy with that.
00:16:34
Speaker
Oh, oh my gosh. I can't imagine. I would think I would think it was, you know, we hear people say I thought it was a mannequin. And I feel like that would be my first inclination too, because you don't expect to stumble upon a dead body. Exactly. Well, in the investigation, police actually found separate bags, one for each leg and arm.
00:17:03
Speaker
but no head was ever recovered. So here police are, they get this phone call that there's a torso. They go to investigate, they find all these plastic bags with like right arm, left arm, right leg, left leg, and that's all they've got to go on. And that makes me sad for the family of this victim. Oh my goodness, I know. Yeah.
00:17:32
Speaker
Now, what they were able to, and this is fascinating to me that, you know, once they start investigating and they try to figure out like cause of death and different things, I just, I'm so intrigued by all of the information that your body can give to them. So they were able to determine that whomever had committed this crime had sawed off the right leg first
00:18:00
Speaker
then the left leg, then the left arm, then the head, and finally the right arm. So I'm assuming maybe blood splatters or something? Well, or maybe like how the blood coagulates or something? I'm not sure how they determine like the order. You really have to just like
00:18:22
Speaker
really hate somebody to saw off their limbs in their head. That's so in their business, personal, type of murder. Right. I think so too. And they even said, and this was in a documentary that I watched called The Jinx about Robert Durst, but
00:18:41
Speaker
one of the police investigators had mentioned that the right arm they could tell that whoever had committed the crime had started to saw it off and either got tired or for some reason it was harder and then they had broken the arm left of the way. I know so this is I mean this is very graphic and like you said Maggie I think it seems personal. Yeah.
00:19:07
Speaker
But in one of the bags, in one of the trash bags, they actually found a portion of a newspaper. And the portion of the newspaper actually had an address on it. So they at least knew where to begin their investigation. So they went to 2213.
00:19:27
Speaker
Avenue K in Galveston. Oh, Dorothy messed up. Yes. With that address, there were really like only two individuals who this could be in the trash bag or who were somehow linked to the crime because obviously we've got this address. And the two people, one was Morris Black and the other was Dorothy Signer.
00:19:53
Speaker
Well, there were hands still attached to the arms and feet still attached to the legs. So they took some fingerprints from the hands and the DNA from those limbs showed that the body was that of Morris Black. So now investigators know at least where to look and they at least know who it is.
00:20:15
Speaker
So is this like a big apartment complex or is this like a town hall, like with one house on one side, you know? From what I read, there were four rental units, but then
00:20:27
Speaker
Other articles I read mentioned only Morris Black and Dorothy Signer. So I'm not sure if like there were two different addresses and like 2213 was just those two. And then like the I don't know if the other half of the house had a different street number or something. But once the investigators came to 2213 Avenue K,
00:20:54
Speaker
And they figure out that this is Morris Black. They start investigating the complex a little bit more thoroughly. And they were actually able to trace Morris Black's blood from the common area in between the two rental units. Like, so in between the one that Morris Black rented and the one that was rented by Dorothy Signer.
00:21:19
Speaker
And because they were able to trace blood in that common area and it actually led into Dorothy Siner's rented unit. Oh no. That was enough. I know. That was enough to get a search warrant. Yeah. She definitely, well, technically he definitely was not very careful with this. I know, which seems, now they didn't, I guess,
00:21:48
Speaker
From what I've read and seen, it's not like they walked in and they saw blood. It had been cleaned up. Oh, so they tried to cover it up. Right.
00:21:59
Speaker
Well, once they got the search warrant to Dorothy Siner's rented unit, they came in and they really didn't find much of anything that would indicate that a woman lived there. And well, we know why. Of course, they're like, what's going on? You know, like, there's no like hairbrush, makeup, like none of that stuff. And in fact, there were very few personal items at all. So how old was Robert?
00:22:27
Speaker
slash Dorothy is supposed to be. Do we know? So in, let's see, 77 now, and this is around 2000. So around 57. Oh yeah, so there would have been some makeup, hairbrush, like. Oh yeah.
00:22:46
Speaker
Something to indicate, but like I said, there was like one pair of shoes in the closet. I mean, like very few things. But oddly, something that they found that they didn't expect to find was in the kitchen, there were these like drop cloths that were down all over the kitchen floor.
00:23:10
Speaker
So of course they start exploring now that they have the search warrant and under the cloth, under the drop cloths, there were these like cut marks in the vinyl in the kitchen floor. Is that where she saw the limbs off? Well, that's what they're thinking because they're like, is this proof of the sawing off of the limbs because there's cut marks?
00:23:37
Speaker
So police thought just like you did Maggie and they actually like removed a part of that final kitchen floor and they found the blood had soaked through the cuts. Blood that when tested was that of Morris Black. Okay, have you told us this already or like how exactly did Morris Black die?
00:24:04
Speaker
Well, I'm going to get to that because we don't know for sure. I just hope that he wasn't alive when this dude started sawing his limbs off. Right. And I don't know if they would be able to tell that when they do like the autopsy. I don't know. Gross me out. So now they at least know whose body this is. They know where
00:24:34
Speaker
the dismemberment happened, right, in Dorothy Signer's apartment, so now to find Dorothy Signer.
00:24:44
Speaker
interestingly trash from the rented unit because you know now that they have a search warrant they can look through all of these things and they start looking through the trash in that rented unit and they didn't find any receipts that had Dorothy signers name on it but they did find a receipt for a pair of eyeglasses for a Robert Durst
00:25:11
Speaker
and he at this point is on the run correct correct so and i'll get more into why he was on the run at this point later and in next week's episode so i'm kind of working my way back but you'll see why so because i found this receipt for robert jerst now law enforcement could make the connection that's dorothy signer who the landlord actually called an ugly woman
00:25:41
Speaker
Anyway, now they can make the connection that this was actually Robert Durst. And when they found him, they actually got a tip from the eyeglasses place because he was supposed to pick up his new glasses.
00:25:57
Speaker
They followed him, they pulled him over, and they arrested him. And they mentioned that they were setting bond at, well, some accounts I read $250,000, others at $300,000.
00:26:14
Speaker
And in that documentary, The Jinx, there's like this shock on the police detectives faces because they recall looking at him and he says something like, what should I do?
Durst on the Run
00:26:28
Speaker
And one of the officers is like, well, do you have $250,000? And he goes, I mean, not on me.
00:26:38
Speaker
So there we go. Well he kind of probably didn't have a pretty good money or he must have had a lot of money somewhere if he was able to pay a full year's worth of rent.
00:26:48
Speaker
Exactly. And Robert Durst was actually in jail after they arrested him for Morse Black's murder. He was in jail for less than 24 hours before Bond was posted by his, what? Yeah, less than 24 hours before Bond was posted by his wife, air quotes again, Deborah Lee Sharton.
00:27:13
Speaker
So I'm can they like can you be arrested and well, I guess they have to have some type of bond right but they could make it like Some outrageous amount that normal people wouldn't be able to afford or can they say right? Okay Yeah, and so again who could normally afford two hundred and fifty thousand dollars Right. I use the term Maggie wife very loosely
00:27:41
Speaker
Because I get the sense that this marriage was in name only because they married on December 11th, 2000, but they never lived together.
00:27:55
Speaker
And according to Samantha Sharp's article in Forbes magazine, even Robert Durst's family was unaware of the marriage and she didn't even know where he was, like where he was living until she received that phone call asking for bond money after the death of Morris Black. So why even get married?
00:28:14
Speaker
Well, I think it could have to do, she was his power of attorney. Oh. And so while he's kind of on the run, she's able to like help keep track of all his finances, send him money when he needed it. But then, you know, I guess make sure if something did happen to him, that the money didn't go away. Gotcha.
00:28:44
Speaker
So she obviously was able to get the funds together very quickly for his bond and I'm gonna get into hearing a little bit how she was able to get it together so quickly. But as soon as she did Maggie, in jail less than 24 hours, any guesses as to what Robert Durst did when he was released? Did he run away? He ran. Can he do that though?
00:29:11
Speaker
Well, no. Good question. And because he ran, he missed his court hearing on October 16, 2001, and a warrant was issued for his arrest because he had, you know, left town.
00:29:28
Speaker
We didn't just follow the rule like we do and then all of this would just be avoided. Like, seriously, how hard is it to be a rule follower? Just don't murder people. I think that's the lesson we all take away. That's true. That's lesson number one.
00:29:45
Speaker
nearly as bizarre as he was found to be living in Galveston, under the name Dorothy Seiner as a mute woman, is how Robert Durst was brought back to face justice, Meg. He was actually caught when he went into a Wegmans grocery store in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
00:30:10
Speaker
And despite having about $500 in his pockets and an additional $37,000 in his car,
00:30:22
Speaker
He tried to shoplift a box of band-aids, a newspaper, and a chicken salad sandwich. Okay. Like, why even take the risk when you're on the run for murder? Like, why? Just spend the cash. I know, and he has it on him. So I don't get it. Also in his car was Morris Black's driver's license. Oh, perfect.
00:30:49
Speaker
And Durst was actually nearly unrecognizable in the video from this Wegmans grocery store. And maybe this is why he thought he wouldn't get caught, I don't know, because he has shaved his head and his eyebrows. Huh. Okay. Have you ever thought to shave eyebrows? Like that would never... He's committed. We'll give him that. He is committed.
00:31:16
Speaker
Yeah. So he's like, I'm going to make it to where nobody recognizes me. And then I'm going to shoplift a chicken salad sandwich. That's his landing. Maybe he cut his eyebrow when he was shaving. He got a paper cut on the newspaper.
00:31:34
Speaker
So Robert Durst was brought back finally for trial for Morris Black's murder and he actually pled innocent. Of course he did. You might be thinking Maggie that this plea is ridiculous and that this case would be a slam dunk because here we have proof that Dorothy Seiner was Robert Durst.
Self-Defense Claim and Legal Strategies
00:32:01
Speaker
there's morris black's blood that's leading from the common area into the unit rented by dorothy signer aka robert durst you have cut marks on the kitchen floor underneath those cut marks you have blood that has soaked through from morris black's body right so you're thinking okay what how are they why is he pleading innocent like how can this possibly end in robert durst's favor but
00:32:29
Speaker
Robert Durst spent nearly 2 million dollars on his legal defense team. What's this man's occupation? That he has his much money? Well, again, I'll get to that. Because I think it has partly to do, I don't know, with some of his issues. Okay. But it was something like 1.8 million.
00:32:54
Speaker
that he spent on his legal defense team and they were actually able to convince a jury
00:33:01
Speaker
that Robert Durst had killed Morris Black in self-defense. So, sawing off his limbs and his head was self-defense. So, to hear Durst tell it, he had returned home one day to find Morris Black having taken Robert Durst's .22 caliber gun from his hiding place and was threatening Durst with it.
00:33:29
Speaker
Okay. This is what Robert Durr says. So he says, I came home, Morris Black had found my .22. He had gotten it out and he was threatening me with it. So they struggle for control of this gun. And in the struggle, this is what Robert Durr says, in the struggle, the gun discharged and it shot Morris Black in the head. Okay. So if this was me and I accidentally shot someone in the face,
00:33:57
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I don't think my next thought would be like let's take their body to my apartment and saw off their limbs. I'm with you. I like that. That's where my brain would go.
00:34:11
Speaker
I know. I would call the police. Yeah. I would be like, I probably need to call 911, which he was running though from the police. So maybe that's why he didn't call 911. So what Robert Durst said in trial is that after this stuff will happen. So again, that the actual killing took place in self-defense. Okay. What he's saying. And then after that moment, he panicked.
00:34:38
Speaker
And instead of calling the police for help and explaining the situation, he tried to just make the situation go away by making the body go away. So he had used a bow saw and a paring knife and had sat in that kitchen and had dismembered the body, putting the pieces into bags and dumping them in Galveston Bay.
00:35:07
Speaker
Like I just, okay. Okay. So if he had murdered him, or okay, if it wasn't self defense and that was an accident, and you were running from the police, I could see that you would panic and that you would have to like, you might want to figure out some way to just
00:35:26
Speaker
in his words, make it go away. And so, you know, you're gonna put the body in the bay or whatever. I still don't really get the sawing the limbs off. And like, I can't mentally get the picture out of my head of him just snapping this dude's right arm off. I know. It's just too much. It's too extra.
00:35:47
Speaker
for me to be, for it to be just like, oh, I'm trying to make this body go away. Like that's just, it's too many, too many extra steps. Well, I know because in my mind, and this is going to sound horrific that I'm even saying this, but like you bringing up, like, I guess questioning what I would have done, which number one, I would have called the police. I would have been like, okay. I mean, it's over. The charade is up, you know, like now whatever, but
00:36:13
Speaker
I feel like if nobody ever goes into Dorothy Siner's rented unit anyway, and she's already paid for a whole year, why would she have not just left or, well, he, I should say, cause it's Robert Durst, why would he have not just left the body in the apartment? Well, is he living there or was it like a facade? Like he's not really living there. I mean, as soon as this happens,
00:36:41
Speaker
Okay, so exactly so why didn't he just Leave this body in the apartment and you've already paid rent for a year, right? You have plenty of money. So just go somewhere else right and this rented unit and a lot of people have pointed this out and
00:37:02
Speaker
as like, I guess something to indicate how desperate Robert Durst was, but he has all this money, right? I mean, he's able to pay like 1.8 million for his defense team, but this place that he chose to rent, it was only $300 a month. So it's like a very cheap rented unit. So, I mean, honestly, he could have paid rent for like five years.
00:37:28
Speaker
So to me, yeah, it's the the act of dismemberment that I Don't know it
00:37:40
Speaker
I can't get past it. But the problem with the dismemberment, and perhaps this would explain why it had to happen, is remember, Robert Durst's whole argument with Morris Black's case is that he acted in self-defense, right? That the actual murder was self-defense when he shot Morris Black in the head.
00:38:02
Speaker
But because Morris Black's head has never been found, there's nothing to prove Durst's story. Oh, I forgot about that little piece. Yeah, so maybe he thought, you know, well, I can't just chop off the head.
00:38:21
Speaker
Right? Gotta make it look like I'm trying to get rid of everything. I don't know. But I think that has to be why he chose the dismemberment. And to explain why Robert Durst would behave this oddly or would have like
00:38:41
Speaker
been renting a unit under a different name, dressing as a woman or even like odd tics with his behavior in court, why he was a social, why he would miss social cues, why he would run away from his problems. His defense team actually argued that Robert was mildly autistic and had Asperger's syndrome.
00:39:08
Speaker
So they're trying to say he thought, because he didn't understand, I guess, social rules, that Robert Durst thought that if he went to police that they wouldn't believe him.
00:39:22
Speaker
Or maybe he's like super, super, super smart. And since he dismembered the body and the head hasn't been located, he says in his mind, well, I'll just tell everybody that I shot him in the head and self-defense because the head hasn't been found and they can't prove anything otherwise. Right.
00:39:44
Speaker
Robert Durst actually said, so there's been not only a documentary called The Jinx, which is really good and I mentioned it several times in this article, though it has proposed some problems with the legal defense and I'll get into that next week. But there was actually a movie, a fictionalized movie based on true events that was called All Good Things.
00:40:10
Speaker
And Robert Durst actually gave some commentary because he actually enjoyed the movie, which is interesting. And in the commentary for that All Good Things film by director Andrew Jarecki, who's also the one who did the documentary,
00:40:28
Speaker
Here's what Robert Durst said, because I like to give things in his words when I can. He said, quote, I remember the nightmare I went through over the next several days after shooting black, trying to decide what to do.
00:40:44
Speaker
deciding I could not go to the police. The police are not going to believe this. Nobody's going to believe that I came down here to Galveston, a rich guy, rented a $300 a month apartment disguised as a woman and oh by the way, my neighbor's lying in my kitchen with a shot in the face from my gun." Okay, so totally impersonal, no remorse.
00:41:07
Speaker
Right. So his legal defense would argue, well, that has something to do with the autism with the Asperger syndrome, not knowing how to react appropriately. Okay. I see that. Now, personally, Maggie, I do agree with him. I don't believe him. So I would imagine the police wouldn't need that.
00:41:29
Speaker
And I think mostly the reason I don't believe him is because of his reaction, though. And we talked about this just a second ago, but I don't see it as a natural reaction to cut up a body and then steal that person's license and identity. But that should be. Yeah, that seems very extreme. Yeah, and again, even if you went to the extreme of
00:41:56
Speaker
dismembering the body and getting rid of it, to then steal that man's license and pretend to be him? Yeah, you really have to think that through. Like, that's not just the first reaction that I feel like most people would have, is like, oh, I can just steal his identity now. Right. And yeah, because to me, that's a calculated move to think, oh, I need to get into his wallet and pull out his license.
00:42:23
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Yes, I'm 100% agree with you. That's not something that, like, in anxiety of the moment, you're just going to, when adrenaline is pumping, you're going to think about. Yeah, I think it's way too calculated to be, like, your first and your initial reaction. Mm-hmm.
00:42:45
Speaker
But, as I mentioned, Robert Durst's legal defense team, they were able to convince a jury that it was a natural reaction, and that Robert Durst had acted in self-defense and the struggle with a gun that caused the
Conviction and Sentencing
00:43:00
Speaker
death. So in the end, Robert Durst was found guilty only of bail jumping, because remember he's found out of town, and evidence tampering because he cut up the body.
00:43:15
Speaker
Okay. That's it. I don't agree, but okay. I know. And because of a plea bargain that Robert Durst had taken, he was sentenced to only five years. No. Yup. But because he had been held in prison awaiting trial, he actually got credit for time served. So they determined that he would only have to serve another three years and he was paroled after a year and a half.
00:43:44
Speaker
So how long was he actually in jail? So... What, a year and a half? He had been in jail for like two years before the trial, which is why they said he would only have to serve another three. But then he was paroled a year and a half, so he was in jail like three and a half years. For killing someone? Yep, and dismembering the body. Okay. Because they said he killed Morse Black in self-defense.
00:44:13
Speaker
So remind me again, his trial that COVID delayed is in regards to? A different murder. Okay. Oh. Yes. Okay. So just a little bit, a little peep into seventh grade. Okay. So we've been doing arguments and debates and when we went before Christmas break, we were talking about
00:44:40
Speaker
juvenile jail time, which is a super cheery topic to go into Christmas. But they talked about, um, which obviously it's different because, you know, these are kids that are like 13, 14, 15, 16, not like 50 year old men, but they talked about, um, some people obviously think that the purpose for jail time or correctional time
00:45:05
Speaker
when you're that age is to rehabilitate you, not to necessarily like punish you. But then there were other people that were talking about, um, like sometimes people, like basically if you do an adult crime, you need to pay adult time because if not, then that can lead to like more crimes down the line. And it was like, it talked about this person that was arrested for like theft or something. And then he only served two years in jail for that. And then as soon as he got out or
00:45:34
Speaker
not really jail but like in juvenile correction system and um so not like grown-up jail but then as soon as he got out he killed his girlfriend and her kids wow and this is kind of what that reminds me of yeah and i think well so
00:45:56
Speaker
His defense team was obviously really good. Yeah. Kudos to them. Right. And they were able to convince a jury that he had killed Morris Black in self-defense, which, I mean, I get if it's legitimately self-defense. And I mean, obviously, there's no head, so we can't prove that he's guilty. Right. Yeah. So I get why a jury would have to find him innocent of that, because we have no way to prove that he's selling a lie. Yeah.
00:46:24
Speaker
you're innocent until proven guilty. But then there's also this claim that he suffers from, you know, autism and Asperger's and things like that. And then it becomes even harder to try to, I guess, assess awareness
00:46:48
Speaker
Yeah. Of the end of a crime. And there were moments when I was watching the documentary, The Jinx, when there was this one interview between Durst and the filmmaker Jarecki, remember that's the same one who did that fictionalized movie of Durst's life, that I saw it that he did seem to like
00:47:16
Speaker
miss certain social cues or he would have like ticks in his eyes. And then in the documentary, there is this one recorded phone conversation with his air quote, wife, Deborah Sheraton. I shouldn't use air quotes. They are legally married.
00:47:34
Speaker
But again, I'm saying air quotes because it's like in name only. But she's talking to him when he's in jail awaiting the trial for Morris Black's death and he actually asks her what she thinks his facial expression should be when he enters the courtroom.
00:47:54
Speaker
Like he's like, should I smile? Should I be sad? And like, those are not questions that I would even think to ask. So this does come.
00:48:06
Speaker
I mean, has he been evaluated by someone who could say like, yes, he has this syndrome and yes, like he does not know like how to react in certain situations because we all know people or I feel like the majority of us know someone who has autism and struggles with certain things. And I know that like,
00:48:33
Speaker
you know, should I have a smile on? Should I be like, should I look sad? Could be something that someone like that might ask. So I wonder if he's been like evaluated to know if that's like part of his disability. I have not seen any proof that he was evaluated and me saying that I could see
00:48:55
Speaker
some of those elements of not understanding social cues, that's my perception. But it also seemed evident that this declaration that Robert Durst suffers from autism or Asperger's seemed to come out of left field right before this trial.
00:49:14
Speaker
He was evaluated by a psychologist when he was younger, and I'll actually get to that later in the episode, but it was neither autism nor Asperger's that that psychologist mentioned. And I feel like my biggest problem with it all, what bothers me the most about that premise of his defense team,
00:49:34
Speaker
is that somehow if Durst did have autism or Asperger's, that that would like somehow excuse or explain the violent act. And I feel like, and Maggie, I'm sure you have seen this too, I feel like there is like this misunderstanding or this misguided stereotype that someone with mental illness has like a greater propensity to commit violence and that just isn't true. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
00:50:01
Speaker
Mental illness alone is not an explanation for violent behavior. You know, like if someone has autism, that doesn't mean that they're more likely to become a murderer. Right. There's other things that are coming to play. Yeah. Right. And I mean, studies do show a higher than average inclination to violence.
00:50:23
Speaker
but that's only with some psychiatric disorders and really only when that psychiatric disorder diagnosis is combined with a dependency on drugs or alcohol
00:50:41
Speaker
or early exposure to violence usually in childhood. So what they call a dual diagnosis. And that, I read that in an article called Mental Illness and Violence that was published by Harvard Medical School. Because they were like, let's look and see if there is a link between mental illness and violent behavior and there's not. Like you just said, it's far more complicated. There has to be these other factors at play.
00:51:09
Speaker
What did seem to plague Robert Durst was a string of poor decision making. Dismembering a body, poor decision.
Return to Galveston and Trial Outcome
00:51:21
Speaker
Stealing the identity of a man you've just killed, poor decision. Shaving your eyebrows, poor decision. But best yet, I don't think you're ready, Maggie.
00:51:35
Speaker
It's gonna get even weirder. So let's talk about poor decisions. So as part of Robert Durst parole, because remember he's on parole after a year and a half, they told him you have to stay local. Like if you want to travel, you have to get permission. But obviously they're saying this to a man who likes to run away.
00:52:01
Speaker
And now they're telling him he needs permission to travel. And of course needs and required, obviously those don't register. Robert doesn't mind because he traveled anyway without asking permission. He actually traveled back to the house in which he had murdered Morris Black. Again, can you do that? Well, he did.
00:52:30
Speaker
So he breaks parole again, right? And there are those out there who believe that obviously the murder was not in self-defense and that Durst murdered knowingly Morris Black because many people believe Black had discovered that Dorothy Steiner was Robert Durst and wanted to expose him. Okay, I can see that.
00:52:58
Speaker
Right? And like backed in a corner, he reacts and he kills Morris Black. And so there are also many people who believe that Robert Durst returned to the scene of the crime because maybe he wanted to like speak with the neighbors, like find out if they had witnessed anything or heard anything. Like what he knew and second up.
00:53:20
Speaker
Well, yeah, like does he want to return and make allies or maybe even influence with his money? That's what a lot of people believe. But I'm sure what Robert Durst least likely expected was that when he was in town, you know, he decided to shop for the holidays. Oh, God.
00:53:41
Speaker
So he goes to the mall to make some holiday shopping. And he actually ran into almost literally the very judge who had presided over his trial years earlier. So he runs into the judge at the mall.
00:53:58
Speaker
And Judge Susan Criss, she actually didn't even realize at the time that Durst was doing anything wrong by being there. Like she didn't know that he was violating parole. Oh right, because he could have asked for permission to go there. Right, and it's been years since the trial. But seeing him did bring back memories of his trial and obviously those images of Morris Black's body.
00:54:22
Speaker
And in an article in Mashable by Pamela Shailen, there are actually two comments that stand out to me, Maggie, and so I'm gonna tell you what they were. And these were both by that Judge Chris, okay? So first, Judge Chris said this about the pictures of the body, quote,
00:54:44
Speaker
I could see from the beginning, even though the facts were so heinous, pictures of body parts cut up were chilling. You could see that this person knew what they were doing and that it was not the first time. The body was cut perfectly like a surgeon who knew how to use this tool on this bone and a certain kind of tool on that muscle.
00:55:10
Speaker
It looked like not a first time job. That was pretty scary." So I know this is a very poor comparison and I don't mean it to be, but like I immediately think of how difficult I find it when I bake an entire chicken.
00:55:29
Speaker
to carve the chicken because you have to find joints so that your knife goes through a joint or a muscle and i'm like trying to hack through bones and like it comes out a mess and so i can only imagine no i really can't imagine that but like it can only be more difficult if you're doing that on a human so i feel like if it came like i feel like you'd have to know what you're doing basically is what i'm saying
00:55:58
Speaker
right yeah and so and that's kind of what she said like the way it was cut almost perfectly the way he knew which instrument to use on which part is what made her believe that this wasn't a first time and i'm gonna come back to that okay
00:56:18
Speaker
But the second comment actually had even more of an impact on me, Maggie, because, well, okay, it's clear by the first comment that the judge believed Robert Durst had killed before. Yes. Right. Clear from that comment. And knew that because the head was missing, there was no way to either prove or more importantly disprove Durst's story. Right. We know that he admitted to killing Morris Black.
00:56:48
Speaker
We know that mental health issues are not a legitimate reason for violence. And I think we would all agree that cutting up a body is not a logical response given the situation. So why would the jury
00:57:03
Speaker
then acquit him of this crime. Like why would a jury find him innocent if we know all these things to be true? And that gets me into the second quote, which really got me thinking. So let me read you the quote first. And this is actually a long quote from that Mashable interview, but I find it telling. So Judge Chris stated that she actually knew early on where the trial was headed.
00:57:31
Speaker
Here's what she said, quote, the state, now side note, the state are the ones who are trying to find Robert Durst guilty. Okay. The state walked in not prepared and they didn't think they had to be.
00:57:49
Speaker
They did not think about what to ask each witness, including him, and questions to ask jurors or to pick the best jurors for their case. They, the defense, had two mock trials they had gone through. You could tell when the state were asking dursed questions, they were doing it off the cuff.
00:58:15
Speaker
They spent three days cross-examining him, taking turns because both lawyers had the flu. They forgot to ask him, where did you put the head? The head was never recovered.
00:58:27
Speaker
You had to have a bullet wound. There was no bullet wound on the rest of the body and that was the cause of death, a shot to the back of the head. They also didn't challenge anything the defense said. There was evidence we had during pretrial hearings that they did not try to introduce. Tape recorded phone conversations from jail in which he said things that were incriminating.
00:58:55
Speaker
that showed an inclination to lie at trial, similar to what he did on the TV series. I think at some point the state realized, oh my gosh, things aren't going as we expected. And they gave up and wanted it to be done. And they were intimidated by the defense lawyers. It sort of looked to me that they were throwing in the towel, end quote.
00:59:16
Speaker
Well, I kind of agree with her because like we talked about at the beginning, it seemed like this was almost open and shut. Like, the quote really was there to prepare for it, right? You had this guy, you had blood leading to this man's apartment, the kitchen was soaked in blood, like the body had been chopped up. So like, really, if you're coming in there,
00:59:40
Speaker
as the state, then you're like, oh, this is an easy one. Like, we don't even really have to worry about it. Like, they're definitely gonna find him guilty, you know? I mean, maybe so, but I guess maybe because I'm an overachiever. Oh, yeah, I still would have been prepared. Yeah, like you and I, oh my gosh. I mean, to put it in terms that we understand, we can have a teacher evaluation coming up from our principal.
01:00:04
Speaker
And even though we know we are in the classroom every single day, we clearly have the lessons that we want our students to learn. We have our I Can statements on the board. We've prepared. We've thought about like this lesson for our higher achievers, this lesson for our struggling students, this lesson for the, you know, those who are still working on it. And we figured out how to facilitate it. I am still a nervous wreck. Like I'm
01:00:30
Speaker
Going over my lesson plan the entire night and the morning of just making sure that I haven't forgotten anything and I guess I Don't know how they forget to ask where the head is. I think that should be question number one Especially like I said in a case where he's staying. Oh, I shot him in the head How do we know that you could just be lying because we don't have a head right and I think it's the reason this statement hit me so hard is because
01:00:59
Speaker
I never realized or I just thought about how hard the job of a judge must be because ask the judge, right? She's sitting there and she knows the questions that should be asked, but they're not being asked. And she's like curious about certain details and the state never asks about those details. So they're never revealed. And then you as a judge, you have your own professional gut feeling
01:01:27
Speaker
but you can only judge just like the jury based upon what details are provided.
01:01:34
Speaker
Right? And to the answers of the questions that are actually asked. So even though she has information from the pretrial, she knows about an inclination to lie. She's like, I can't imagine sitting up there. I want to be like, when are you going to ask him where the head is? Or is there a question you're forgetting to ask? You're like trying to slip them a note when they want wired ask.
01:01:59
Speaker
And I think that's what's so hard is because as judge, you're not judging based on your gut feelings or what should have been asked. You're having to judge just like that jury is only based on the information that's given. And I think that would be hard, I think, and I guess that's why.
01:02:16
Speaker
They really have to put a lot of effort into finding people for a jury because I think it would be hard to approach something like that and not already have like a preconceived idea of what you think happened. And like from her standpoint, she knows more than what they're asking. So I can see how it would be even more difficult for her, but she's like, why aren't you telling them this? Why aren't you asking like in her head, you know? Right.
01:02:43
Speaker
And I mean, we said it before, the defense had done their job well. And I didn't mention this yet what Robert Durst looks like, but here he's sitting and he's this small, statured, kind of frail looking man who kind of really looks incapable of committing a heinous murder.
01:03:09
Speaker
So with the lack of questions from the state, right, with what the judge tells us that they basically threw in the towel, with a defense team who did do their job well, did mock trials, like did all this stuff, what else could the jury do but believe Robert Durst? True. I mean, there's no head, there's no proof otherwise.
01:03:32
Speaker
And so again, what makes it so sad is if this really were self-defense, he should have been able to move on with his life had it not been for his continued poor decision-making, right? Like they're telling him, okay, but stay local. He doesn't, right?
01:03:52
Speaker
And you asked again, like, can he really do that when he ran again? And it's because of his poor decision-making, like this decision to buck the court's judgment again and ignore that ruling to ask for their permission to travel that Robert Durst landed back in prison on March 1st, 2006. Maybe they just need to like quit granting this dude parole. Like he obviously is a fly risk. He just needs to stay in jail.
01:04:20
Speaker
Right. Now, what you might be wondering, Maggie, and you sleuthhounds, is why Robert Durst? Because he said, oh, I panicked, right? And we know he was already running when he ran to Galveston because he was going under a fake name, fake identity, all of that stuff.
01:04:39
Speaker
So you might be wondering why Robert Durst would have been so anxiety ridden at the thought of being exposed that he would commit such a crime and then would run. Like what was he running from? Well it turns out, like everything else in Robert Durst's life, it was a tangled web of distrust and death and that it wasn't just the one other death, the one for which he now faces trial,
01:05:10
Speaker
but two, and I'm not even talking about his mother, that haunted Robert Durst.
Durst's Connections to Multiple Deaths
01:05:17
Speaker
So a total of three deaths, if we include Morris Black, that are inextricably linked and all tied to Robert Durst.
01:05:30
Speaker
but I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself because the other two deaths are what I'm gonna cover in next week's episode. And because the story has so many twists and turns, I'm gonna go back to the beginning for the end of this episode. I'm gonna go back to Robert Durst's childhood.
01:05:49
Speaker
After his mother's death, Robert underwent years of counseling. I mentioned the psychologist before. This is like the death in the intro that he saw his mother either slip or commit suicide. Correct. So after that death, his father never really talked about
01:06:11
Speaker
the mother's death, and nowhere did I see anyone clarify whether the death was an accident or a suicide, just that it was tragic. And it was. Like, clearly this death, whether seven-year-old Robert saw it or not, because his brother said he didn't see it, right? But it would still affect you. Yeah, and like, I can't get... Like, what stuck out to me in the introduction was the dad pointing to the mom,
01:06:40
Speaker
Right. Was it like mommy's hanging Christmas lights? Like she's on the roof waving at mommy? Or was it like, I'm going to be a psycho and make you watch your mom jump to her desk? So when, and again, Robert's brother Douglas said none of that ever happened. But Robert says his father just kind of calmly walked him to the window and pointed out his mom standing on the roof.
01:07:07
Speaker
And that he didn't really understand, I guess, what was going on. He waved at her, hoping to get her attention. And then he just kind of turned around and walked away. Weird. And then moments later, the death happened.
01:07:24
Speaker
her an article in the New York Times by Charles Bagley and Kevin Flynn, both Robert and Douglas. Now there were actually four children, but Robert and Douglas are the oldest. They saw a psychologist because of their mother's death and it kind of created this subsequent rivalry between them.
01:07:46
Speaker
And more specifically, an article in Vulture by Dan Riley on April 15th, 2015, interviewed People Magazine reporter Matt Birkbeck, who actually wrote a book about Robert Durst. And in Birkbeck's book, that's hard to say, there is a letter from that childhood psychologist.
01:08:11
Speaker
who had met with Robert and Douglas. And in that letter, per Birkbeck, quote, the psychologist letter is in the book and he says he, meaning Robert, can't even be treated because he's got some real severe issues.
01:08:31
Speaker
And what the psychologist had written down was, quote, personality decomposition and possibly even schizophrenia. So this psychologist is literally like, we just can't treat this dude. He's just too messed up.
01:08:47
Speaker
Basically, and so what Birkbeck says of the psychologist's letter, he said, it's a warning to everyone that you got this ticking time bomb here, and that was back in 1953, and that wasn't addressed either, the doctor's letter, end quote.
01:09:08
Speaker
Like, even from the beginning, what this Birkbeck guy is saying is that, like, they identified right after his mother's death that Robert had personality decomposition, which I'll address that a little bit more in next week's episode, and possibly schizophrenia, but he's never been treated. He seems very Michael Myers to me.
01:09:32
Speaker
Like we just have a kid that's like got a, which obviously Michael Myers is not real, but like we just have a kid that's got a really bad mental disability and there's just not really anything we can do to help. It's what his psychologist is saying, which I think is extremely sad. It's very sad. Like how different would his life had been had he gotten treatment? Yeah, exactly. He could have been, lived a normal life.
01:09:56
Speaker
Right, but what Birkbeck also notes in that book about Robert Durst is that that quote unquote memory that Robert had of his father walking him over to the window to see his mother on the roof was not consistent with newspaper articles which noted that nearly the whole time that the mom was on the roof that police and firefighters were present at the scene trying to save his mother.
01:10:24
Speaker
and like that's inconsistent with Robert Durst's memory. So I know that doesn't like, you can change memories. That's the thing with even I would miss my words. Your brain can trick you and change things. So it's hard to say, like I don't know if it's necessarily inconsistent, but maybe Robert just doesn't remember the police and the fire there. Like maybe
01:10:51
Speaker
And all I was thinking in my head was if what he's saying is true, why in the heck would the dad have walked him over there unless maybe the dad was thinking like maybe she sees the kids like if it was a suicide, maybe if she sees the kids, she won't do it. Yeah, that would be the only
01:11:09
Speaker
like logical explanation why he would walk them over there. But it also seems like to me, if the police are outside trying to save your wife, like you would be down there, you would be with the police. Like I would be climbing onto the streets. Right. And I mean, Robert's brother Douglas said what Robert said about his dad walking them over never happened. So let me tell you a little bit more about the family. So maybe
01:11:40
Speaker
Maybe none of the surviving members of the Durst family really knew how to cope with that loss, you know, of the mom. And so the family kind of began to fall apart after that death. Robert and Douglas's grandfather, Joseph Durst,
01:11:56
Speaker
He was a tailor and he had actually moved to America. He'd immigrated here with only $3 to his name. Wow. And he started, I know, he started like this tailoring shop in Manhattan in the garment district and he bought the building that he worked out of. And then when he saw how profitable that was, he just started investing in other real estate. Well, look at that American dream right there.
01:12:22
Speaker
Oh, I know. And this grandfather, Joseph Durst, was very good at what he did. He bought up all kinds of property in Manhattan, including some office towers, and he established what he called the Durst Organization in 1927.
01:12:39
Speaker
And it became the super successful family business that he passed on to his son, Robert and Douglas's father Seymour Durst in 1974. And Maggie, when I say successful, let me clarify with this quote from Samantha Sharpe's article on Forbes magazine, where she states, quote, when Seymour Durst appeared on the inaugural Forbes 400 list in the wealthiest Americans,
01:13:08
Speaker
In September 1982, he was described as the driving force behind a $500 million family real estate empire that spanned 100 New York City properties, including a sizable chunk of Times Square and roughly 3.5 million square feet of office space, end quote. Okay, so this is where this, Robert's money comes from. Now you understand.
Family Wealth and Estrangement
01:13:37
Speaker
So I feel like that makes it even more I guess bizarre to me. I don't know why but I guess because he's not in like you know these bad consequences where it's either like kill or be killed you know or yeah
01:13:59
Speaker
I feel like you have much more choice and many more options. That's why they already say you have more options when your family is like you know behind a 500 million dollar real estate empire. And it makes it even more sad about the fact that if he
01:14:16
Speaker
should have actually gotten a diagnosis of this, you know, schizophrenia or personality decomposition. There was the money obviously available for treatment that never happened. Yeah, exactly. Seymour Durst, which was Robert and Douglas's father, had hoped to pass along the figurehead position in this family business to his eldest son, Robert.
01:14:46
Speaker
But by his own admission, Robert was never really interested in the business. Like he just thought the corporate world was too stuffy. Like it didn't fit with his personality. And what he didn't mention when he said that as a reason as to why he didn't take over the family business was that
01:15:07
Speaker
What also could have had a small role in not naming Robert as the figurehead was the fact that Robert's wife Kathy had disappeared. Is this the air quote wife or another wife? No. This is the second potential murder. Oh.
01:15:32
Speaker
And there were those who suspected Robert's involvement. And it's her case as well that we will get into it. Now you see why there's so much. So in essence, Robert sees his mother or doesn't see his mother commit suicide. He gets married. He decides not to take over the corporation. His first wife disappears. We still don't know where she is.
01:15:58
Speaker
His best friend knows about the first wife. This best friend is whose murder Robert Durst will be on trial for next year. He runs away to Galveston, Texas, where he murders Morris Black, but he's acquitted. And all of these things are plaguing Robert Durst. Okay, wow. Plus, yes, I know, it's a lot. And side note,
01:16:28
Speaker
Robert also, so in addition to saying, well, it just, it feels too stuffy for me. And the fact that, you know, with a missing wife, it could bring bad publicity. There's rumors that Robert's involved, right? We don't want that with the organization. But also maybe it's his way of like throwing up a middle finger to the quote unquote corporation. He would do things like he would call collect to the Durst organization offices. So they would have to pay for his phone call and not him.
01:16:58
Speaker
wow yeah and just little very vindictive things you know what i mean yeah very smart like almost meaningless though vindictive thing right but like i'm gonna make them pay yeah literally and he would also show up to the he did this one day he showed up to the office building i don't think you're prepared for this maggie and urinated in his uncle's trash can what
01:17:23
Speaker
Yeah, so there we go. And, uh, side note, little twist. It turns out that this also was not his only incident of public urination either. Okay, so he just seems very, like, against the grain, stick it to the man, top of dude.
01:17:41
Speaker
Right, right. And what's interesting is, I mean, I would have supposed, if I were Robert, that probably after, especially after I pee in my uncle's trash can, and I say that I don't want to be involved in this real estate empire, like it wouldn't have come as a surprise when their dad seemed more dursed instead of passing along the business to Robert, passes it along to Robert's younger brother Douglas. Yeah, I don't think I would be surprised.
01:18:10
Speaker
I don't think I'm gonna be like, oh, you didn't take that as a compliment when I PB'd in your trash can? Sorry. I know. But apparently Robert was taken aback by that choice. And it brought back those rivalries of yore, like when they were younger, right? When he and his brother didn't get along. And Robert just actually accepted a $65 million settlement to disassociate himself from the family corporation.
01:18:40
Speaker
He stopped coming into work at all and he was so upset by his father's decision that he didn't attend his father's funeral in 1995. So basically like they say take the 65 million dollars and just pretend like you're not a nurse anymore.
01:18:54
Speaker
Right. Which part of me would be like, Oh, you want to pay me $20 million to not work? Okay. Yeah. Whatever you want to get me. And part of me wonders though, Maggie, if maybe another reason he didn't want to attend the funeral was because he didn't want to be seen in public. Cause obviously we see him constantly changing his look and his appearance, his identity.
01:19:24
Speaker
so that he's not recognized. Oh, sure, that had a big part to do with it. Right. And as I mentioned before, it seems that everywhere Robert went, trouble followed. So he tried in every way possible to change who he was, change his name, change his appearance, change his location, change his trajectory in life. But at every turn, his past was right there.
01:19:49
Speaker
And Maggie Sleuthhounds, it's up to us to decide if that trouble was warranted by actions that Robert chose to take. We know that he had childhood trauma. We also know that he chose to cut up a body to hide evidence of murder. And that the judge noted that it was done so skillfully as to indicate this wasn't his first dismemberment.
01:20:17
Speaker
So could he have also killed his first wife, Kathy, and disposed of her body too? The negative publicity and constant questions about her disappearance are actually what caused him to run.
01:20:33
Speaker
Then almost two decades later, when Robert Durst received a tip on October 31st, 2000 that a New York DA was reopening Kathy Durst's case, right? So reopening the case of his missing wife. And then he found out that his best friend, Susan Berman had been contacted by police to be questioned about Kathy's disappearance.
01:21:01
Speaker
Eyes turned to Robert Durst again when that best friend, Susan Berman, was found murdered execution style in her Benedict Canyon home. Oh yeah, I feel like that is warranted. I think people would automatically look at him.
01:21:18
Speaker
Right. And then, you know, that discovery that the case being reopened happened only days before Robert ran again, this time to Galveston, the very place that he ran from after killing his neighbor, Morris Black. So it's almost like his wife disappears soon after he runs. Right. Then
01:21:46
Speaker
He hears that the case is reopening over his missing wife. He decides to run again. Then we find out his best friend is murdered, right? He runs from Galveston and we find out he's murdered there. So where's he at right now? He's in prison. Okay. He's awaiting trial.
01:22:07
Speaker
And it's the trial for his involvement in his best friend, Susan Berman's death, the execution style that Robert Durst is now going to face in April of 2021. That's when they've postponed that trial until. So what we will be looking at next week is exploring the details of his wife's disappearance
01:22:32
Speaker
and his best friend's death. And Maggie, be prepared because next week there will be just as many jaw-dropping moments and gasps. Oh, God. Okay, I've got to wait to prepare. That's right. Near the end of Joseph Conrad's novella, Heart of Darkness,
01:22:55
Speaker
A once respected man, Kurtz, has been driven to madness by the darkness within. The darkness consumes him as Kurtz's greed and power grow. The storyteller in the novella Marlow tells his audience of hearing Kurtz speak, quote,
01:23:14
Speaker
Everything belonged to him. It made me hold my breath in expectation of hearing the wilderness burst into a prodigious peal of laughter that would shake the fixed stars in their places. Everything belonged to him. But that was a trifle. The thing was to know what he belonged to. How many powers of darkness claimed him for their own?
01:23:43
Speaker
The darkness had proven too fascinating for Kurtz. So fascinating that, quote, he had withered. It had taken him, loved him, embraced him, got into his veins, consumed his flesh, and sealed his soul to its own.
01:24:04
Speaker
by the inconceivable ceremonies of some devilish initiation. He was its spoiled and pampered favorite." Most off-putting, though, was near Kurtz's death when it seems that the two sides of Kurtz's personality, the original one and this altered one, were fighting for control.
01:24:30
Speaker
His two personalities actually argue in one moment in the text, and it's that moment that comes to mind when I read the full transcript of Robert Durst's conversation with himself that appears at the end of the Jinx documentary. Alone, faced only with himself,
01:24:54
Speaker
Durst is recorded saying the following, quote, there it is. You're caught. You're right, of course, but you can't imagine. They want to talk to him. That's good. I find them very frightening and I do not want to talk to them. I don't know the washer. Well, I don't know what you expect to get, but the rest of
01:25:23
Speaker
I don't know what's in the house. Oh, I want this. Killed them all, of course. I want to do something new. There's nothing new about that. What a disaster. He was right. I was wrong. I'm the burping. I'm having difficulty with the questions. What the hell did I do?" End quote. Robert Durst has been acquitted of murder once.
01:25:52
Speaker
What is the likelihood that it will happen again? We will explore next week the disappearance of Kathy Durst and the murder of Susan Berman, the weird details, including Durst nearly admitting, kind of, in two separate incidents, his own involvement, issues with the documentary on Durst's life that might prove problematic in his trial, and the notable lack of evidence at every turn.
01:26:22
Speaker
Until next week, Sleuthhounds.
01:26:25
Speaker
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01:26:55
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.