Transcript
Jonathan Bird: okay hello Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Industry Time. ah I'm Jonathan Bird and I'm joined as ever by Ian Beasley and Shabazz Mogul.
Ian : Evening.
Shabaaz Mughal: ah
Jonathan Bird: So um first of all, how's your week been? Shabazz is, as we know, the ex-Spurs team doctor but he's from Manchester and his front is.
Jonathan Bird: a fundamentally United fan, so it's not's not been great, has it?
Shabaaz Mughal: know um As much as I try not to follow football too closely in terms of watching Man United, but yeah, it's not a great watch at the moment. It's not
Shabaaz Mughal: It's just not happening, is it? It's just not happening. it's I don't understand why. On paper, I think I read a quote today, was it Brian Clough? Football's not played on paper, it's played on grass.
Shabaaz Mughal: It's true, on paper, you'd think they've got the players, but somehow it's just not happening.
Jonathan Bird: Yeah, I mean, something's probably going to have to change at that club, and and we know what the usual thing is, isn't it
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah. Yeah. but i think I think the general feeling is there's too much inflexibility. Like, surely most teams in the Premier League play sort of 4-3-3, some variation of that.
Shabaaz Mughal: And the players United have got, they'd fit into that so easily. Like, surely you'd give it a go and see. It can't be any worse than it is at the moment.
Ian : ah It's so funny, Shabazz.
Jonathan Bird: Well, I mean... this
Ian : Roy Keane made the point on the TV. He said, there's Pep Guardiola, one of the best managers there's ever been in football, talking about adapting. and yeah And he said, he can adapt.
Shabaaz Mughal: and
Ian : And just left it at that. Because that you're right, that's the criticism aimed at Amarim, isn't it?
Jonathan Bird: um yeah um i think as i can't I can't see he's got much longer to go unless he massively changes things around.
Shabaaz Mughal: and The fixtures coming up, you know, there isn't much hope.
Ian : the view
Shabaaz Mughal: I think they're playing Chelsea and Liverpool soon as well.
Ian : I mean,
Jonathan Bird: yeah i mean yeah you know they've if it had if if the bottom three last season weren't all quite so bad, both United and Spurs could have been dragged into relegation battle.
Shabaaz Mughal: Definitely.
Ian : Easy. it's and it But it's sort of, its you know, I'm only a punter. I mean, ah you like all of us, I've seen a lot of football, but I'm not a coach. And, ah you know, I don't know much about the ins and outs of tactics. But I'm not sure if you're trying to get something out of a game, you can bring Maguire and Casemiro on.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah, I mean, it's constant, isn't it?
Ian : It doesn't.
Shabaaz Mughal: Change the defence. How's that going help? but kindt i't I really don't understand what's happened to United over a long period of time, because if you look at um you know teams like Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, you know these giants of European football, which United historically are a giant you know English football
Ian : Yeah.
Shabaaz Mughal: ah How, how you, how are you allowing the club to get to this state? Unbelievable.
Jonathan Bird: tim Ian you weren't at the Emirates yesterday were you? It was a good win for Arsenal 3-0 but Odegaard interestingly injured his shoulder again.
Ian : It looked like his AC joint, didn't it? Because he fell right on the tip.
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Jonathan Bird: yeah yeah and you know i mean they've not really disclosed what the what the injury is but and it's probably strain of the acj presumably which is so so the acj is so you've got your collarbone um and where the collarbone uh attaches to the shoulder joint so out by the shoulder um it's an injury when you land directly on the edge of your shoulder um cyclist of all all professional cyclists have all injured the racer they've all either that or they fractured their their collarbone their clavicle because as you come off your bicycle you land on the edge of your shoulder um
Ian : Yeah, because you can't your cleats out in time.
Shabaaz Mughal: I think Luis Enrique has just done that recently. Luis Enrique, yeah, PSG manager, fell off his bike, fractured his...
Ian : Did he?
Jonathan Bird: barely
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah, think so. Either fracture or dislocation. Yeah.
Jonathan Bird: Everybody.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Ian : it has with the shoulder as dislocated and no one bothers to surgically repair it because it just happens again in ice hockey.
Shabaaz Mughal: I mean, sprains are common and players play with sort of low grade AC joint sprains. Ligaments are still intact, just being stretched. And we've had lots of players that play sometimes they need an injection.
Shabaaz Mughal: and And eventually, after a few weeks, it settles down. They're fine.
Ian : Mo Salah did this um in the Champions League final against Real Madrid.
Shabaaz Mughal: When Ramos pulled him down.
Ian : That's what he did when Ramos pulled him down.
Shabaaz Mughal: That was ACJ.
Ian : Good old Sergio Ramos, yeah, pulled him down and
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah. yeah
Ian : and changed the game, didn't
Jonathan Bird: Because suppose his cho shoulder things are not as uncommon as you think in football. you know You always think of you're you're looking at the lower limb injuries, but it's the falling down.
Shabaaz Mughal: Would you, you know, in, just sorry to interrupt John.
Jonathan Bird: It's the you know crashing against his eye boards, landing on your shoulders.
Ian : on both.
Jonathan Bird: Theo Walcott dislocated his shoulders, didn't he? I think he needed a stabilisation surgery on both sides.
Ian : yeah on both
Shabaaz Mughal: Just going back to that, Ian, you know, the Salah one in the Champions League final.
Shabaaz Mughal: I mean, if that's not, like it's difficult, isn't it? it's not full dislocation, would you, you know, would you take him off, take a few minutes, decide, maybe put some, do an injection and try and get him back on the pitch?
Ian : it's It's a possibility, I think. I mean, I think that, you know, it always depends on on the player.
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Ian : I remember when I was at Arsenal, we had a player who had one of those and at half time I said to him, oh, I can inject this, it will be fine. It's not serious, you'll be okay.
Shabaaz Mughal: Mmm.
Ian : He just got out off the couch and walked out of the treatment room. So he didn't go back on.
Jonathan Bird: what what what he what what he what he he didn't have the injection in the end.
Shabaaz Mughal: What are doing?
Ian : Yeah, he didn't. He didn't want one. And he he said, I'm not having one. I'm not going back on. That was that.
Shabaaz Mughal: Here.
Ian : So you have to know your players. And you know I've certainly offered that sort of treatment to some players who refused it.
Shabaaz Mughal: Here.
Ian : And that's fine. That's their prerogative.
Shabaaz Mughal: Here. Mmm.
Ian : And, you know, and the other thing is, know, if you're not sure, yeah, this is that, a chroological called pial talk yeah, where the colour moment meets.
Jonathan Bird: this is this this is this is this This is the ACJ. the this there's not there's not This is not a broken collarbone.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Jonathan Bird: This is where the collarbone ah um attaches into the shoulder. Yeah.
Ian : Yeah, that sort of knobbly bit, that's there's a joint there and sometimes it gets...
Jonathan Bird: Hmm.
Ian : The other people that get them are squash players for running up against the wall. like they They get them. um And like they can be really uncomfortable.
Shabaaz Mughal: So I need dialect.
Ian : But I agree with you, Shabazz. you know ah um Whilst I was sitting on the settee, of course...
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Ian : Saying what I might do or might not do.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Ian : But you know when you're there, it's yeah the player has to agree.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah, true.
Shabaaz Mughal: yeah
Ian : he doesn't want to do it, then that's that.
Jonathan Bird: I think probably rugby players as well, it's that kind of like um that landing, as you get as youre in a tackle and you land on your side on the edge of your shoulder. um That is not uncommon to, I broke my collarbone twice actually playing rugby as a lad.
Jonathan Bird: Yeah,
Ian : Have you? Painful.
Jonathan Bird: it was, but as a child so it fixed itself pretty pretty quickly.
Ian : no ah I saw a jockey and she's a jump jockey and she's been, she's fallen off her horse hundred something. She came about fifth or sixth in the national and she'd fallen off her horse loads of times.
Ian : And she said to me, the worst injury she's ever had a fractured clavicle, the most painful.
Shabaaz Mughal: wow
Ian : And she'd done it two or three times. Mad. Horses are a long way up, aren't they?
Jonathan Bird: Yeah, it's a dangerous sport actually. Look, anyway, look, we were, our main topic of conversation today, we thought we'd talk about the post-career medical problems for players. So think for certainly at the elite level,
Jonathan Bird: um players who come through the academy, and then get contracts when they're old enough to get contracts. They have never wanted for anything. They get told where to go, what to eat, where to turn up, and and their medical care is given to them on a plate.
Jonathan Bird: So there is, it's certainly at the big clubs you've got, You've got a sports medicine doctor. You've got physios. You've got access almost the click of the fingers to world leading experts in every single bit ah of of the body.
Jonathan Bird: um But post career, what is available to them in?
Ian : It's a bit of a mixed bag, really, Jonathan. The catch-all for footballers, anyway, after they've retired is the PFA. So the PFA is the Professional Footballers Association.
Ian : It's the Footballers Union.
Jonathan Bird: And they they all pay into it, don't they?
Ian : And they will...
Jonathan Bird: All professional players.
Ian : Yes, they pay into it throughout their career.
Jonathan Bird: Yeah.
Ian : And you the PFA are really good. they do you know If you have to finish your career early through injury, they'll pay for you to go and do ah university degrees.
Shabaaz Mughal: Thank you.
Ian : Fabrice Mwamba, who Shabazz knows very well, um ended up doing an accountancy qualification via the PFA.
Jonathan Bird: So he he he was a he he he he he was the guy that had the, he had a, he had not a heart attack, but he had ah he had a like a heart rhythm problem mid-game against him.
Ian : The cardiac arrest, yeah.
Ian : Yeah, so ah they're very good. and And as far as injuries goes and aftercare, you know, if players have issues, um the PFA will support them.
Ian : But it's it's they only support them if the p player says to them, you know, I need a knee replacement, i need a hip replacement, I need to do this, I need to see that person. and and Then the PFA will support them. But there's no formal...
Ian : way of of doing that, it's it's sort of, it's but it's between an ad hoc and a formal process.
Shabaaz Mughal: you
Ian : I can't say there's no process, because there is, but it's not a formal process. And there's no way people like Shabazz and I, for instance, of course I would say that, Shabazz and I ah aren't part of an aftercare for footballers panel of people that will see them, for instance.
Ian : And considering how long Shabazz was in football and how long I've been in football, I have to say you know us and others like us would be ideal to do that and ah on a regional basis probably.
Shabaaz Mughal: and happy to do this work, yeah.
Jonathan Bird: but then who But then who would pay for that?
Ian : Well, the the PFA would pay or the player has private insurance and then they pay as everyone does when they have private health care.
Ian : I mean, Shabazz made the point earlier and sorry about Shabazz, but, ah you know, at the end of their career, are they advised to take out health insurance and what sort of health insurance and what about their family health cover?
Ian : Because usually everything is done by the club. So suddenly, if they're out on their own, you know, they do need some help in that transition period and private healthcare can can do that.
Jonathan Bird: you know And some of them may literally never had a GP before.
Shabaaz Mughal: True.
Ian : So Baz, yeah, crack on.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah, i think I think just to reiterate what you guys have said, so basically as a professional footballer if you're in an elite club, but I would say even
Ian : What do you think?
Shabaaz Mughal: you know championship level. um you're You're basically you've got it all you know laid out for you so you've got access to doctors twenty four seven you've got your physiotherapists for your rehab, you've got nutritional advice.
Shabaaz Mughal: and So you're given all the advice, you're given all the tools and you you've basically you know we we having worked in football you're essentially on call twenty four seven and and sometimes when we you tell that to your colleagues, they can't comprehend that because obviously in an NHS setting you're on call over a weekend or you're on call for a week and then you're off for six weeks in terms of call commitment, which means out of hours.
Shabaaz Mughal: ah But working in football, you are their first point of contact at any time. And I'm sure Ian will tell you lots of stories where you know I've been woken up in the middle of the night ah by calls regarding problems with the player or problems with their family.
Shabaaz Mughal: And it's hard work. It's not it's not glamorous and as people think it is and not realise that the work that goes into it. and So when you're used to that level of care and then suddenly you get to 30, 35, 36, you retire and it and from one day to the next it's all gone like that.
Shabaaz Mughal: So you don't have access to your team doctor anymore who is your gateway essentially like your GP to every other service that you might require. You don't have that advice at the end of the phone.
Shabaaz Mughal: And um I think it's a big shock to the system.
Ian : And then...
Shabaaz Mughal: And, you know, this is for people who not used to using the NHS, so they don't know about accessing the GP and then they can't get their head around the delays that that you'd need to access NHS services.
Shabaaz Mughal: So I think there's big sort there's a big there's a big sort of an area that's missing and needs help. And and I think the PFA are really good and i get I still get players, the PFA sort of direct them to you, um which is really nice and they'll come and see you and the PFA cover their consultation costs. But when it's, ah you know, their chart in private healthcare, care everything gets charged for your scan, your blood test, everything.
Shabaaz Mughal: i mean, that can add up to a huge amount very quickly. So I think one of the big things is why are they not advised to take private healthcare, care not only for themselves, their family, because that's their expectation is that level of care.
Shabaaz Mughal: and And Ian talked about earlier, or fair about exit interviews, which I think is a massive thing. There's no after advice, after care. ah I remember when I was at Spurs, one thing that we did we were really big on was giving the player their cardiac screening history because we thought this was very important regardless of whether they continued playing, they moved to a different club, they moved to a different country.
Shabaaz Mughal: So what we did, we made them a little exit package. And it was ah all their cardiac screening that they'd had while they'd been with us and any sort of recommendations they'd been given.
Shabaaz Mughal: Because sometimes there's not any real abnormality, but the recommendation is to have follow-ups for a certain amount of time, or there might be something that's being monitored, but it's not a contraindication to doing physical activity or high-level sports.
Shabaaz Mughal: But you can't, that information, is it has to be with the patient. It can't just be, you know, the club is aware of it and then suddenly the next club has to sort start again or wherever they go, it starts again. so I was really proud of that. I thought that was a really good thing that we did.
Shabaaz Mughal: But that really, if you think about it, expand it to your whole history is really important and empowering the player, the patient, so they understand their you know musculoskeletal history, their cardiac history and what what they might need to look after long term.
Shabaaz Mughal: So there are all these factors that you know, there's there's things missing there. We get contacted, Ian will tell you, we get contacted by ex-players and they don't know where to go for help.
Shabaaz Mughal: And, you know, we will help them and we'll help them as much as we can. But yeah, it needs more.
Jonathan Bird: but But you're only doing that because because they because you make yourselves available.
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Ian : Yeah.
Jonathan Bird: And and you'll know you're nice people, you're good doctors, and you feel a sense of loyalty to these ex-players. But that's just an ad hoc thing, isn't it?
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Ian : Yeah, and they yeah they've entertained us for years. i mean, think the other thing is, is that you you know you may turn up during the transfer window, you will turn up at the trainer ground one day and you say, oh, I haven't seen so-and-so.
Ian : And they go, yu oh yeah, no, therere there there are they're at Derby now.
Shabaaz Mughal: Thank you.
Ian : They've been transferred. And it happens just like that. And no one says anything. So it's hard to prepare. And, you know, if you... ah when i first started out you know you'd you go to a football club and you'd open a ah filing cabinet and in the filing cabinet will be oh what's this oh that's so and so he used to play here he was here 10 years ago we still got his records you know your gp will send if you move and go to a different city in the end the nhs your records follow you and doesn't that doesn't happen automatically
Shabaaz Mughal: Centrally, yeah.
Ian : um The cardiac screening now is not so bad. the FA hold cardiac screens in a central database.
Shabaaz Mughal: centrally
Ian : But again, once you stop playing, doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's going to understand what's been going on with you.
Shabaaz Mughal: What about non-English players, Ian? Will the FA still hold that data or is that...
Ian : yeah yes yeah so they so it's it makes life a little bit easier when you're doing signing medicals now because um because you know you can get hold of the screens if you've got consent from the player you can get hold of the screening his history so it's not so it's much better than it was but nevertheless um the rest of medical history
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Ian : You know, it's often it it's on a set of notes somewhere, but it doesn't doesn't always get transferred.
Shabaaz Mughal: hmm hmm
Ian : mean, I think clubs are miles better now than they used to be. um And how many times have you signed a player from abroad where the ah the club abroad refused to let you have the notes, won't give you the notes?
Jonathan Bird: Yeah, really?
Ian : You have to start.
Jonathan Bird: what Why would they do that?
Ian : Yeah, well, because they think it's going to in some way jeopardise the transfer. That will have happened to you, Shabazz. Definitely happened to me.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah, there's all sorts of shenanigans that go on.
Ian : Oh,
Shabaaz Mughal: You can't basically, I think, I we've talked about signing medicals before, but my thinking was always do everything yourself. Don't rely on anything from anyone.
Shabaaz Mughal: Even if someone tells you, oh yeah, they had a scan a week ago.
Ian : to, you just, just do everything.
Shabaaz Mughal: no you want to see it yourself. You want to see the, yeah.
Ian : but So, so, you know, the,
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Ian : you It's a bit like, you know, it feels a bit like a washing machine to me. The player, you know, in a, goes this way, think then the machine tail turns it and goes that way.
Ian : And, you know, player's career goes on. But if you, I'd say there's still a fair percentage of professional footballers' medical records that aren't as complete as they should be.
Ian : And that isn't because they haven't been done, but they just ah they're not connected end-to-end throughout their career.
Jonathan Bird: Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting.
Shabaaz Mughal: I mean, the other thing is well,
Jonathan Bird: I haven't been thought because, you know, if if if if they've never had a GP, then then they've got no record.
Shabaaz Mughal: yeah, there's no sort of central hub.
Jonathan Bird: Yeah.
Shabaaz Mughal: And the other thing is that, you know, there are there are there are ah conditions that footballers or professional athletes, any athletes, are at high risk for following their career.
Shabaaz Mughal: So, you know, what do we do about that? Do we... Do we do surveillance? Do we regularly look look out for it? Let's take it really sort of on a simple level a away of the knee.
Shabaaz Mughal: That's going to be higher rate osteoarthritis, wear and tear arthritis in the knee.
Jonathan Bird: So that's an arthritis of the knee.
Shabaaz Mughal: So what are we doing about that? Do we wait for the player to get to a point or the ex-player to get to the point where the knee hurts so much that they're hobbling along and asking for help? Or, you know, are we proactive?
Shabaaz Mughal: Should we be proactive? I mean, I think we should be doing things where they have regular surveillance and whether it's, you know, assessments, scans, but you try and be proactive rather than reactive.
Ian : Yeah, ah I agree. I mean, I think, you know, is what we do know is from the guys in Oxford have done sort of looked at ex-footballers, you know, ex-footballers get more total knee replacements and they get them earlier than the general population.
Ian : So we know that that happens.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah. Yeah.
Ian : But do we make sure that every professional footballer has a basic rehabilitation programme so that they keep the muscles around their knees strong, which... you know it will It won't reverse the situation, but it can mitigate its progress and prevent some pain.
Ian : So do we do that? I don't think we do do that. don't We don't do that. um and we And we could.
Shabaaz Mughal: yeah
Ian : You're right, Shabazz, we could be more proactive. Same with hip wear and tear arthritis, lower back, where all these things you know you can do something about.
Shabaaz Mughal: yeah
Ian : i mean, the worst thing is for a super fit person at at the age of 50 to be hobbling around because their knees are painful. Now, that may be an inevitability or partial inevitability, but nevertheless, you know, how do we know that they're getting worse? What can we do to slow it down?
Ian : Because there are things we can do to slow it down. So, you know, maybe you're right. Maybe we should be looking at doing that.
Jonathan Bird: What about to do um psychiatric services? So a lot of ex-athletes suffer with anxiety, depression, um undiagnosed ADHD, is a no and there's no real system for that either, is there?
Ian : No, there there isn't.
Shabaaz Mughal: Must be a huge, huge
Ian : I think it's... Again, if you look at if you look the sort of research that's been done, there's no doubt that ex-footballers um suffer more with the sort of what used to be called common mental disorders, you know anxiety, depression.
Ian : um But you know ah it's it's more or less up to the to the person to get help. um and help if you're not privately insured is very difficult to access.
Ian : ah Very difficult.
Shabaaz Mughal: And if you think about, yeah, but, you know, you do with mental health and problems, youd it's almost like inevitable.
Ian : And again, I don't think we do much for mental health sort of benefit, really.
Shabaaz Mughal: If you think about the psychology behind, you've done something for so long and you're training at high levels, so you're, you're in a normal exercise routine anyway. So that's probably maintaining a very good level of your mental health. And then suddenly, again, it's from one day it drops, along with this massive change. And you know, you know most players retire maybe 35 to 40. So you're still a young man, young family, or young lady, young family.
Shabaaz Mughal: And this big change in your life where you've lost, you know, your career is over, your identity is different. And we were talking about how football and sport is an industry.
Shabaaz Mughal: All sports are an industry and it's, you know, how long do you remember the last person? It's the next one. It's a conveyor belt and you just move on. It's the next person. But if you're that person, how hard is it to adapt? And, you know, you know, what's your relevance? All these questions that must come into your mind. What, you know, what's your purpose?
Shabaaz Mughal: It's so young to, um, to have ah you know all these things. And we don't know actually today there really tragic news about Ricky Hatton.
Ian : Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Bird: Yeah.
Shabaaz Mughal: And we don't know what the ins and outs of that is, but we know that he struggled with his mental health in the past. And you know, such a young man. So it's is is really, um it's a huge problem I think, and it's something again,
Shabaaz Mughal: we we can be proactive, we need to be proactive, we don't need to be reactive and these are the sort of things where, you know, the advice should be to get private health cover to have formal access through their unions, the PFA, etc.
Shabaaz Mughal: and link up to specialists and have the have those frameworks in place.
Ian : Yes.
Ian : Yeah, I mean, I think think for the the PFA, over the last 20 years, really, have really developed their their mental health support services. And, know, they have area and regional and they have reps that go into clubs.
Ian : um But, again, the real difficulty is once people disappear, you know, it's hard to keep tabs on them. I think men especially ah find it difficult to ask for help.
Ian : um And because of that, you know, it's a definite thing that people will struggle. And and like you said, you know, i don't either know the ins and outs of Ricky Canton, but but it was, you know, he he publicly talked about his mental health.
Ian : and And it's great now that quite a lot of sportsmen, including footballers, are talking about mental health. I watched the World Athletics Championships from Japan, and you know they were talking about the same sort of thing associated with injury.
Shabaaz Mughal: Indifference.
Ian : and i you If you have a really bad injury and have to give up the game early, it affects you. I was talking to ah lad I used to play football with,
Shabaaz Mughal: different
Ian : And his dad run the team we were weber we weav used to play in. He was in the late Norient reserves and and um and they got rid of him when he was about 20.
Ian : And I spoke to him when I was working in the Middle East and he said it took him till his mid thirties to come to terms with the fact that he'd been dumped by his club.
Ian : I don't think that's uncommon.
Shabaaz Mughal: No, definitely not.
Jonathan Bird: I think youre it's in interesting that Eza, who signed for Arsenal, was about to go to Spurs, of course. and He is from Greenwich and um grew up an Arsenal fan, as many kids in South East London do. and he he gave ah He had an interview where we talked about being released from the Arsenal Academy at the age of 13.
Shabaaz Mughal: Thank you.
Jonathan Bird: and it's clearly 30 14 something and appeared had deeply affected him and he then went ah to a variety of clubs and got binned by and through five or six different academies been binned from all of them and um and he said I got binned from the place that I love the place I wanted to succeed more than anywhere else which is Arsenal and I had to tell myself you know if I can get through that then I can get through the anything and this is a literal child
Ian : Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Bird: You know, and and it's he just it was really heartbreaking to hear. I mean, he made it. um I mean, maybe even if he didn't end up signing for Arsenal, he's played. He's played for Palace. He's already playing for England.
Jonathan Bird: um He's had an extreme, whatever happens to him from now on, he's had an extremely successful career. But there are a large number of, and these are children, who get binned by their clubs.
Jonathan Bird: And it must be awful. You know, and you know you work in you guys worked in football, and it was often there's a number of the people who work at in and around the club were players themselves but never quite made it beyond on beyond the academy stage.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah, think.
Jonathan Bird: I see lots and lots and lots of young lads on the NHS of Lewisham who are trying their best to get through to professional football. and they have an injury and you just think, you know, yeah and I say them, you know even without an injury the chances you becoming a professional footballer is you know it was quite low and they know that and i think that is better nowadays that they they are made aware of that.
Jonathan Bird: um There's a lot more education, it's important that that that they have a ah way out. um and these And these are kids who've never made it into football. And the ones who do make it through and then out at the other end, is what we're talking about now, it is, you know, we were saying off air that it's an entertainment interest in um industry.
Jonathan Bird: And once you stop being that great player that everyone wants to come and see, yeah don't worry about it because there'll be another one along in a minute.
Shabaaz Mughal: Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Bird: And you get spat out the other end and no one really seems to care that much about about the guy or young woman who's kicked out the other end.
Ian : It's brutal. It's absolutely brutal. And you know, I always used to, when I worked for the national team, I always used to talk about, you know, people come and train with England. Well, that's fine. It's just an ordinary training session.
Ian : But the emotional load you know, that young players have to suffer coming to the England camp for the first time, in going to St George's Park and all these big players who are their heroes and they've got to perform on the training pitch the next day.
Ian : must be so hard. It must be so hard. I mean, I admire their resilience, um but nevertheless, I'm sure it isn't easy.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah, I think to be a professional sports person, you know, mentally you've got to have some unbelievable resilience. I watched the, um I didn't watch it last night, but watched, re-watched it during the day, the boxing with ah Crawford and Canelo.
Shabaaz Mughal: And I was just thinking, you know, these guys, the number of people watching them, the number of people relying on them, And they carry all of that into the ring with them.
Shabaaz Mughal: And then they perform. And yet they, and then they perform in such a brutal sport, such a high level. It's just unbelievable. The mental strength that you need to do that.
Ian : Yeah, I agree. I can, I mean, how how many players do you know that we all know who you know come from a different continent and you know two thirds, three quarters of their wages goes back to their village to sustain them?
Shabaaz Mughal: yeah
Ian : I certainly had a resilient player I looked after. He looked after just about his whole village that was in a sugar cane factory. He looked after the whole village built.
Ian : places for them you know all it was all down to him you know as you say shabazz every week he's got to turn out and play very tough
Shabaaz Mughal: yeah
Jonathan Bird: Yeah, and and and yeah it isn't just your own personal sort of drive to improve, but as you say, as you get older and you earn more and there's more and more people relying on you, you know, and that brings so much pressure for them.
Jonathan Bird: um And if you have to retire through injury, you know, you're made to feel a failure. Well, you're not made to feel a failure. You may feel, put so much pressure on yourself that you may feel that you're a failure because you've let everybody down.
Ian : Yeah, you've let people down.
Jonathan Bird: you let everybody down
Ian : and And I think that that goes back really to the original thing about, you know, I i i always feel, like say, for 60 years, I've been entertained by watching one footballer after another, after another. And I think the sort of least we can do as a medical profession is try and help and support them afterwards. And although the PFA are fantastic, there's no doubt about it.
Ian : You know, ah having a formal way of doing it and having some formal exit after, you know, they retire from football to give them some guidance in all areas, you know, socio-psychological is is what we should try and do.
Jonathan Bird: Yeah, and perhaps, it's interesting, perhaps there should be, there's a lot more money in football than there used to be, and perhaps there should be sort of an all-round care for ex-professional footballers in the, certainly in England,
Shabaaz Mughal: They do. um The clubs, yeah.
Ian : Yeah.
Shabaaz Mughal: You do, you do. So ah I remember, again, working in football, you'd get ex-players coming in and, ah you know, you'd recognise them because when you were a kid, they were big players.
Ian : yeah
Shabaaz Mughal: And you'd sort of go out your way to help them. But it was kind of all of, you know, if you want to help them, help them. But there's no formal sort of way of helping them. Um, And then you just think as they get older and I guess the sort of staff turnover gets younger, they won't know who these people are and, you know, there might not be that same willingness to help, um which is sad really because...
Ian : but
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Jonathan Bird: Well then it it shouldn't be down to you recognising a legend and looking or or even a partial legend.
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Jonathan Bird: mean there will always be. There are plenty of obsessive within the club who will remember every single player.
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Jonathan Bird: They'll play once for them, they'll say, oh yeah, he played for us and now he's in non-league somewhere. But they would they will they remember them. And perhaps there should be a thing if you play, if you're a member of the PFA, then you were looked after to life.
Jonathan Bird: And then perhaps and the past the the perhaps there should be a network of ex-sports team doctors such as yourselves who can co-ordinate it.
Shabaaz Mughal: I think that is the case, isn't it?
Ian : And and you know the other thing is, you're right Shabazz, people you know phone you up and ask for this, but the whole thing about note keeping, investigation, recording, passing on and making sure that the right people have it so that all the notes are with the player stroke patient or with their GP or somewhere central, you know,
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Ian : You give advice to people and and look, it just doesn't happen as it should do because it's not formalised in any way.
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Ian : and i And that's not you know thats good for anybody. It's not good for the patient, but good for us.
Shabaaz Mughal: Hmm.
Jonathan Bird: So um I think we'll start to wrap it up there. It's been another quite long one. Our first one 20 minutes from up to 36 minutes now. But if anyone's listening, PFA, we are available for high level high levell discussions.
Jonathan Bird: we We can we can try and try and set something up. But mean, it would need a lot of organisation and you know money behind it. But... but um you know why not you know these are as you say here and these are people who've you know they've busted out to entertain us it is entertainment industry the we as a society perhaps I owe it to them as well
Jonathan Bird: um Okay, right, so that's that. um We'll hopefully have one next week. ah I'm missing the City game. I'm up at Newcastle. I'll be on the A1 on my way down south during the game.
Jonathan Bird: um By the time we next meet, will Amarim still be the United boss? We'll see.
Ian : Will Russell Martin still be the Rangers boss?
Shabaaz Mughal: Yeah.
Jonathan Bird: Yeah, indeed. Indeed. um It was... um
Jonathan Bird: uh yeah it was it was interesting seeing seeing ang posco glue again yesterday um and um there was a particular um there's a particular song sung to the so to song one one of one of the monkeys songs which i'm sure anyone that knows any arsenal songs will know um which was and it was it helped that for us we're losing three nil so um ah But yeah, it's ah it's an interesting subject we can come to another time is the life of a manager.
Jonathan Bird: How
Jonathan Bird: how how how does that work you know as ah as ah as as ah as a team doctor with a different manager coming and going and stuff? Anyway, look, that's that but i said that's a chopper for another time. um so Thanks to everyone. I've been Jonathan Bird, Ian Beasley and Shabazz Mogul.
Jonathan Bird: and This is injury time. Goodbye, gents.
Shabaaz Mughal: See you.
Ian : Have a good week, everybody.
Jonathan Bird: Cheers.
Shabaaz Mughal: Take care.
Jonathan Bird: See everyone.
Shabaaz Mughal: Bye-bye.
