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What is toxic masculinity ?
153 Plays2 years ago
This is the first conversational episode for Season 3. We are talking with Tim Williams about Toxic Masculanity. What exactly is toxic masculanity and how does it impact our society? Can we talk also about toxic feminism? Listen to different points of views from different generations and get inforrmed.
Produced by Vasilis Skarleas
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Transcript
Zen Classroom: The New Podcasting Standard
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Switching to Zencastr: Why It Matters?
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Empowering Gen Z Entrepreneurs with Kennedy and Vassilis
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Hello everyone, I'm Kennedy. And I'm Vassilis. We run Changemaker-Z, a student-run initiative that aims to empower, educate, and connect Gen Zers interested in entrepreneurship. We interview teenagers with impactful projects and create resources to help you change the world. If they can't do it, so can you.
00:01:36
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On this podcast, we discuss the logistics of creating different types of projects with Gen Zers who have already done it. We will leave our social media and website information in the description.
What is Toxic Masculinity? - Introduction with Tim Williams
00:02:00
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of the Jansus Drives podcast. Today is a special day since we're having a conversation type episode. We're talking with Tim Williams, the producer of the Thrive Hood podcast. The Thrive Hood podcast is a relevant live roadmap for boys and men who want to thrive. And today we will discuss about toxic masculinity.
00:02:25
Speaker
Thanks. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Of course. And, you know, just to kind of get this conversation started a little bit, like when you think of toxic masculinity, what comes to mind? It's open to anybody. Wow. That is a Pandora's box you just opened up there.
Masculinity's Authoritarian Roots - A Historical Reflection
00:02:45
Speaker
We could go in several different directions.
00:02:49
Speaker
I would say, and by no means am I a doctor or a psychologist or a sociologist, this is just an older gentleman that's raised some boys and I have a lot of friends that have been involved in growing up and helping young men grow up. And I would say when you're speaking in terms of that, we could go a lot of different directions, but I would say I'll just sort of narrow it down to
00:03:15
Speaker
Let's maybe take one chapter out of that big book of what toxic masculinity is. I would say that for the longest time, and I would have to admit for the longest time, society, the media, movies, television, everything
00:03:37
Speaker
for up until probably in the last 10 or 15 years, really focused on that it was truly all about the guy, you know? And if we zero in a little more, what I mean by that is we sort of, I think to some extent, put man in a position of just this authoritarian individual over all beasts and all things, right? But I think what happened is that
00:04:06
Speaker
The masculinity part got to a point where it was driven into a man's thoughts that well if you're not strong enough and powerful enough and have enough authority then you must be weak.
Impact of Toxic Masculinity on Emotions and Identity
00:04:19
Speaker
Well, I think what happened is we took that as, well, then if I don't try to control everybody and everyone and everything, if I look even a little bit weak, if I ever get caught crying over something, if I show emotions of any way, shape or form, if I show compassion or kindness or consideration, then somehow all of a sudden,
00:04:45
Speaker
There's a chink in my armor, if I can use a medieval term. Now you've saw a part of me that you shouldn't have seen because I'm supposed to be strong and powerful and authoritative. Well then as a result of that, right, then it bleeds over into how we treat people, right? So if I have been told in a society and my family and Hollywood and everything else has told me that I'm supposed to be strong and courageous and powerful,
00:05:14
Speaker
I think what has happened is I think men in general, they, they mistook that for also having the ability to be compassionate and to be understanding and to actually, it's okay once in a while to cry. It's all right to have, let your emotions show a little bit.
Shifting Gender Roles - Seeking Balance
00:05:32
Speaker
So I feel, and that would probably be where I would go with that is to say, I,
00:05:39
Speaker
I just feel like there was too much of it. Maybe if I can go a little further with this. I did an episode, I think this was probably about a month ago, it was called the mail bashing epidemic. It's interesting you bring this up.
00:05:57
Speaker
because I was talking at that point about if you watch especially ads, television ads from organizations and businesses and companies, movies and sitcoms, you always see the guy, he's fat, he's not smart.
00:06:15
Speaker
can't manage life on his own. He's got to have a girl there, a wife to show him how to how to buy a car or whatever, doesn't know is clueless as to what's going on. And what's happened now in society is where I think back in the 40s and 50s.
00:06:31
Speaker
There was definitely an idea that women could only stay home and have babies and cook. And then when he comes home from a hard day's work, she puts the slippers on him and rubs his feet. And by the way, she's supposed to be in a dress and heels all day long.
00:06:48
Speaker
So there was this ridiculous concept back then. Well, now what's happened is that pendulum has swung to where now, while I would have to agree, I think women were not put in the best position and liked back then.
00:07:02
Speaker
Well now the pendulum slung all the way where the only person that's smart is the woman. The only person that knows anything is the woman. The person that has everything together is the woman. Well that's not right either. Neither one of those are right. There needs to be a happy medium, right? Men and women are here to help each other, to encourage each other, to grow with each other.
00:07:22
Speaker
to live life together, whether you're married or just individuals, right? We're all in this together, right? This is a unified movement of humanity to, I mean, I'll say this and then I'll shut up, because I know you've got a lot more questions.
Breaking Free from Emotional Prisons
00:07:40
Speaker
I often tell my kids, the goal here, I don't care what color you are, I don't care what education you have, I don't care what your background is, I don't care about any of that.
00:07:52
Speaker
We as humans, and I told my kids this, your goal is to leave this world in a better place than you've found.
00:08:01
Speaker
And that's what we all should be striving for. That's what every one of us, the goal is, hey, maybe in this small circle of influence that I have, I can make a little bit of a difference here, and then maybe I make a difference over here. And gosh, think about this, guys. If all of us had that mentality, can you imagine what kind of world we would be in right now? It would be a utopia, you know? So I know I was blabbing, but that was a great question, so I just wanted to share.
00:08:33
Speaker
No, and you touched on a lot more like everything that like and more that we're going to go deeper into in this discussion, but I am just going to throw out kind of like a textbook definition. Like in basically what you said, it's like the need to aggressively compete and dominate others and accomplish the most problematic proclivities in men.
00:08:55
Speaker
knock, I know proclivities means, but like one of the things that you were saying about the emotions and like people are only able to see like a little bit, like if you show even a little bit of emotion, then you're perceived as weak. And when I was reading up kind of on toxic masculinity, I was just like, there was a word that came up, it was like emotional prison, men are put in an emotional prison.
00:09:19
Speaker
and it affects like every aspect of your life to the point where they actually a lot of people end up living longer like toxic masculinity is actually causing you to have an unhealthier life. Have you ever thought about positive masculinity like can we consider that exist also the idea of positive masculinity since we are talking about the toxic masculinity
00:09:45
Speaker
to me sounds like masculinity in and of itself is natural as good and necessary for the survival and evolution of our species but in the end of the day when we add the word toxic in front of many things like toxic water toxic air then automatically we are changing the
00:10:07
Speaker
how people are going to adopt the idea so then is the masculinity something that it's not good to exist right now according to like the definition of today's world toxic masculinity that was transformed to what do you think team
00:10:25
Speaker
Well, I think like with most things, we have a tendency as society, we all want to get on a bandwagon, right?
Reframing Toxic Masculinity - A Positive Approach
00:10:37
Speaker
You two there, you're obviously younger than I am and you're growing up in a much different environment than I have and that I did. But what I want to be careful of, I don't like
00:10:53
Speaker
I just don't like tagging something. Because then we feel like, well gosh, if I'm not this and this, then I must be this.
00:11:04
Speaker
Like we have, society wants to put us in pigeonholes. We as humans, we've got a pigeonhole. To some extent, you're finding where I fit, and you're both of your minds right now. You're trying to figure out, okay, who is this guy? And where do I, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just, that's how our mind works. So we, I've gotta put a label on you, silliest. I have to put a label on you, Kennedy. You've gotta put a label on, we gotta label, where?
00:11:33
Speaker
What has labels got to do with anything? The goal and the objective, and I say this all the time in my podcast, literally, it's funny, I was just finishing up an episode and I said this, whatever
00:11:47
Speaker
whatever you're doing if it is not building you up to be the best version of yourself that you can be then it's tearing you down because guys we're not gonna we don't live linear we don't that's not how life is there are ups and there are downs so when we're let's sort of get back on track of your question so does toxic masculinity exist yeah i think toxic toxic feminism exists
00:12:16
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that we should label women that way or girls. And does that mean that I want to put them in a category and tag them and label them and then we just put them over here somewhere or I don't know, maybe we do agree with that and we want to tag it and then we do want to jump on that bandwagon. So I'm fearful of going down the road of labeling. What I want to say is let's pull back.
00:12:44
Speaker
If your desire is truly to be a man of value, a man of an individual is what I said. If you are contributing to society in some way that is healthy, that is growing others, that is making an impact on society in a positive way, then you are not a toxic man, right? And I would say that
00:13:13
Speaker
I would say that when I was growing up, and as I've gotten older and found out about my father, my grandfather, and even my great grandfather, Kennedy, you'd read what toxic masculinity is, definition. Back then, you weren't allowed to talk about your weaknesses, right? You even mentioned that, Kennedy. You're not allowed to talk that as man. Don't let them see you weak, right? Don't let them see, well, then what happened was,
00:13:39
Speaker
While the men are showing the strength, they're beating their wives, they're alcoholics, they're beating their children, but society doesn't see or hear any of that. Well, why is that? Man, that's a taboo, right? We don't, as society,
00:13:56
Speaker
We're not even allowed to go down there and question what a man does. Well, now, right? That's the total opposite. We can't do hardly anything without a news anchor showing up on our doorstep and saying, you know, you need to be careful as a man. So I will say, yes, I think it's good.
00:14:18
Speaker
man having to sort of skip the spotlight, shine on him a little bit, I think that's healthy. I think that was good. But let's not go overboard that when a man shows a little authority or strength or something like that, that we don't immediately want to go there and say, well, he's toxic. Well, you don't know that person. You haven't been around that person for 47 years, if that's how long they've lived. You don't know all the challenges that they've had to face
00:14:46
Speaker
in times where they stood up. Yeah, it's time that they stood up and they did the right thing. They defended their family. They came alongside their wife and helped her do the things that we sort of don't know that men really still do, right? And take a responsibility. I think that's another big one too. I'm glad enough. I don't know if I even answer your question, but just some thoughts.
00:15:12
Speaker
No, yeah, I think you did. And I'm glad you touched on kind of your past because I was because I know like I remember one time I was at camp and this guy like he got like kicked in the face and literally one of the counselors just like, no, stop crying. Just
Personal Growth and Manhood - Tim's Journey
00:15:28
Speaker
man up. So I don't know why that just stuck for me for some reason. I'm like, it's okay.
00:15:32
Speaker
And this was a little boy too. So it just goes to show that it starts when you're young. So would you say, I know you said like, would you say you were like always told that narrative and like, when was the point that you decided to break out of that if you did? Yeah, I don't think, I don't think Kennedy that that really ever was. That's actually a really, really, really good question for me.
00:15:57
Speaker
I've never had to really, that wasn't really an enormous challenge for me. I think, maybe I'll answer it in a roundabout way. I had an okay upbringing. Was my father with the best that I, no he wasn't. Was he an alcoholic and beat my wife? No, you remember my mom? No, he didn't do that either. He was probably just a middle of the road dad doing the best that he could trying to raise me.
00:16:27
Speaker
And I remember that when I hit 19, I was getting ready to get packed up. I was moving to another state, taking a job. And this was finally my first time being out on my own. And I remember my dad shaking my hand. And he said, well, buddy, you're out on your own. What I didn't realize that what he meant by that was I'm not really going to ever hear from him again. We're not really going to have any conversation. We're not going to communicate or talk.
00:16:56
Speaker
And I think that left in him. Now we did. I would go home for holidays and those sort of things. But my father, he was struggling in some of his own demons on different levels, more relational than anything else. And I think as I got older, I realized that. But at the time, I'm like, gosh, Ed, why don't you call me? Why don't you write me a letter? Back then it was letters and calling.
00:17:22
Speaker
So to answer your question, when did I realize that maybe this isn't who I was? I think it took me a long time.
00:17:29
Speaker
Kennedy to really finally get to a place where I'm like, I've realized that I want to make, and I know this sounds like a broken record, I want to make this a better place than I left it. So I'm going to do that and instill that into my kids, my son and my daughter. I'm going to do everything that I can as much as possible to help them grow up into well-balanced individuals that are contributing to society, that are as well-balanced as they can be, still going to have challenges.
00:17:59
Speaker
life doesn't wait for how old you are or whether you've got it all together. Life's going to happen. You can't change that. So my objective was, and especially for my son, is to grow him up to be very, very well rounded. And if that means that in some cases you need to show authority, then by God you do it. And if there are some cases where you need to show incredible compassion to someone, then you do it.
00:18:25
Speaker
It's crazy that you said 19 because I just turned 19 January 29 and I'm like 19? I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready to walk away. I was saying that Tim mentioned about the toxic feminism and I would love to touch
Is the Future Female? Examining the Implications
00:18:44
Speaker
on it. Like we're living in the 21st century and we're listening more and more often the phrase, the future is female.
00:18:52
Speaker
And we need to understand that this point of view is not anti-male, but instead it's a reminder that our society has moved on since the previous 80s. But how can we avoid the mis-transportation of that idea? I don't know that we can avoid it, Silius. I think we're going to have to just sort of work through it. You know, you can really get into
00:19:20
Speaker
You can really get into, you can get yourself into a really bad situation by talking about these things. And I sort of go back to this episode that I talked about mail bashing. I don't get, and I don't understand why we as a society, we just can't seem to find middle ground.
00:19:41
Speaker
We just always, it's either, it's an either or. Well, either the guy is horrible and the woman, either male is horrible and female is great. Females are horrible and males are great. And I don't know where that came from. I don't know why we have to think that life is like that because
00:20:02
Speaker
It's good God, if there's ever a time in society where there's division, it's right now. I mean, right? There is so much animosity towards just all different types of groups. And what I'm not understanding about all of this is we're all in this together. I don't get how
00:20:27
Speaker
Because you're different than me, it makes you more me less, or me more you less. Where'd that come from? I don't understand how we got here. So when I talk about toxic femininity, it's the same thing.
Collaboration Between Genders - Finding Common Ground
00:20:43
Speaker
And I'm gonna be careful, but I'm gonna say it. If there are females out there that walk around that think that the female race is a higher race than any other, including male, I'm sorry. I don't agree with that.
00:20:57
Speaker
You know what, if I'm talking to a guy that thinks males are the most important, better than anybody else with females, I'm sorry buddy, you need to go home, you need to get away from them. Where's the common ground? We're gonna have those people that are outliers and on the fray, the weird and the unusual and the out of control. But I just believe in humanity.
00:21:23
Speaker
And I believe at the core of all that we are, we are wanting that. I really believe it. I think if you truly would sit down with a number of people and say, I want you to truly bear your heart and what you really think. I could be wrong. But I would venture to say, most people are going to say, you know what? I just want to get along with society and with humans because
00:21:48
Speaker
gosh darn it, it sure would make it a lot easier. And there would be more joy, I think there would be more compassion, I think there would be more kindness, I think there would be more understanding, and I think we would get an awful lot more done to be frank about it. Again, it's not a one-size-fits-all. Regardless of whether you're a man or a woman, if you're taking your
00:22:19
Speaker
your sex and using that as a power move, you're never gonna win me over this. I'm not gonna be on your side, but you wanna come to me and say, hey, let's work together. Let's be a part of this together. Let's move forward and evolving society in a positive way together, right, keywords together. Come alongside, I don't want you in front of me, and I don't want you in back of me, I want you next to me, right?
00:22:46
Speaker
I think that's, I think a lot of people would be open to that idea and that concept. Yeah. It's so sad too, because you have women nowadays saying that I'm not a feminist. They don't want to call yourself, call themselves a feminist because of how like radicalized it is or like, or like how like some people, you know, like you said, are taking it there where it's like all women or whatever.
Defensiveness in Conversations - Breaking Down Labels
00:23:15
Speaker
But I was thinking about this a lot and I think like when you're talking about where does it come from or why we all can't get along or whatever, I feel like as people
00:23:29
Speaker
or like people get defensive and it's like, it's not, when someone's like, oh, you said something inappropriate, it doesn't make you like a racist or like homophobic or something. It probably like, it just makes you like what that thing was, what you did was like, that's, you're not your whole, your whole person isn't that. That's what I've been thinking about recently. And also like, like that doesn't make your whole thing. So I feel like if people think, oh, that's my, like you said about labels,
00:23:59
Speaker
That's why people get defensive and you don't want to talk about it.
Final Reflections and Gratitude
00:24:02
Speaker
And I think that is a great note to end on today with our discussion with Tim. Just do the right thing as much as you can. And that will make the world a better place at the end of the day.
00:24:17
Speaker
So thank you guys so much for listening to our discussion. We got a little bit into Talks Max Divinity with Tim and you can find, Tim has his own podcast. What's the podcast name again? Try it with podcast.com. All right. So definitely make sure to check it out. If you're interested in hearing more, Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a great time to have you here and have your insights with us. Thank you guys. I really enjoyed it. And I'm also doing a plug for what you guys are doing. Keep it going.
00:24:48
Speaker
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. We really appreciate that. Until next time, don't forget to change the world. Bye. Thank you guys for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. We had such a great time. Make sure to leave us a review. If you want more Changemaker's content, you can follow us on Instagram at JinZearsToRise and on Facebook at ChangemakerZ.