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GSD Episode 19: Geoffrey Roche
31 Plays10 days ago
In this episode of Gettin’ Stuff Done in Higher Education, we sit down with Geoffrey Roche, Senior Vice President of Healthcare Education and Workforce Development at Risepoint. We explore his broad career in healthcare workforce development in both institutional and corporate spaces and how his experiences inform his approach to academic partnerships in healthcare education. We also talk about the potential risk of abrupt changes to GradPLUS loans on the healthcare workforce.
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Transcript
Introduction of Jeffrey Roche and His Role
00:00:21
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Getting Stuff Done in Higher Ed. I'm Fritz Vandover. Kelvin Bentley is with me today. Kevin Schreiner cannot join us today. He has a previous commitment and we will give him grief about that later.
00:00:36
Speaker
Nonetheless, today we are joined by Jeffrey Roche, who operates at the all important intersection of higher education and healthcare. care So currently Jeffrey is serving as the senior vice president of healthcare education and workforce development at RisePoint, where he leads the development of academic strategies with their partner institutions to expand access to high quality, affordable healthcare education.
00:00:58
Speaker
Known widely as the heart leader, Jeffrey's career is rooted in a human-centered philosophy, which I really appreciate, and I know Kelvin did too. He has served on the executive cabinets of multiple universities, including a tenure as the inaugural executive director at Harrisburg University, where he expanded academic and business partnerships by over 50%, and on Pennsylvania's COVID-19 Health Equity Task Force.
00:01:22
Speaker
His executive background also includes building national workforce ecosystems for corporations like Siemens Healthineers and Core Education. Jeffrey's educational background is as expansive as his career. He holds a bachelor's degree in political science, a master's degree in public administration, and a full house of certificates in areas such as leading digital transformation in healthcare, care a mini MBA in healthcare, care and additional healthcare leadership and management certificates.
00:01:49
Speaker
but he's not done and is currently pursuing his doctor of education and leadership with a focus on workforce transformation and organizational culture. Lastly, an educator at heart, Jeffrey has taught in graduate business and nursing programs at Moravian University and Lebanon Valley College.
Influence of Jeffrey's Mother on His Career
00:02:07
Speaker
Jeffrey, welcome to Getting Stuff Done in Higher Ed. Yeah, thank you for both for having me. So as I said, as we were getting ready to talk here, what we like to do is just talk about what brought you to this moment in your career and life, if you want, and the threads you've pulled and why you've pulled them.
00:02:28
Speaker
And we already just was, we were preparing to record, you already mentioned some very interesting ones. So I'll let you reveal those or explore those as you like. So tell us Jeffrey,
From Politics to Healthcare
00:02:37
Speaker
what's brought you to this moment?
00:02:39
Speaker
Yeah. You know i think when I look back, you know, my career now of roughly 18
00:02:46
Speaker
So I certainly age myself and in describing that. You're among friends, don't worry. You know, that's me. Kelvin's like, whoosh. Yeah, was like, yeah, that's not that long in some ways. You know, naturally, my mother actually had a big influence. I mean, my mother was a community college graduate, first individual in our family. You know, she was an immigrant from Germany and, you know, first in her family to obtain a college degree, became a nurse. And certainly that had a big influence of what first brought me into health care.
00:03:19
Speaker
Knew I wasn't going to be clinical, but obviously had a certainly had an interest in it from a policy perspective, actually, first and foremost. When I was a college student, you know, before college, even when I was in high school, I worked in state government, which was fairly rare. I mean, I was i was an appointed auditor of my township at age 18. But before that, worked for a state Senate member in Pennsylvania as a part time legislative intern, which was actually paid.
00:03:47
Speaker
And at that time, it was paid well, you know, in that role. And actually, I thought I was going to go the political route entirely. Then when I was in college, i continued to do that work part time.
00:03:58
Speaker
And when I was a junior, I did a Capitol Hill internship, which, you know, really set me very confident on I'm going to go work on the Hill after college. And, you know, I, you know, we met then speaker Pelosi and majority leader Hoyer and, and many others at the time We went to a lunch with them and you know someone asked the question, you know what does a entry level legislative aid on the Hill make?
00:04:24
Speaker
And I remember it was like $25,000 a year. And I thought, well, here, I'm going to come out with at least 50 to $60,000 in college loans. Probably not going to be a good alternative for me if I want to be thoughtful around my future from a financial perspective.
00:04:40
Speaker
And so I came back, met with my academic advisor, who's now passed, unfortunately. And Dr. Reynolds said to me, well, you know, Jeffrey, you know, you've done a lot in government.
00:04:50
Speaker
Why not go try the private side? You know, there's this growing field of government relations, public affairs. Why not go see if that could be, you know, a destiny for you? And so he linked me up with our local health care system in the area.
00:05:04
Speaker
Ultimately, that experience happened. Went back to D.C., Harrisburg, many other places, American Hospital Association conferences, and just fell in love with it. It could really bring together both of of my passions at the time.
00:05:18
Speaker
And so I spent you know a decade after that at a healthcare system you know doing that work, you know started as a community relations coordinator, very quickly moved into leadership, was promoted to director by then our president and CEO, who also was a nurse. And so you see the thread of how influencing influential nurses have been in my life.
00:05:41
Speaker
And then, you know, continued to grow. And ultimately, when I left there, because we were acquired by a larger health care system, I had led, you know, multiple departments, you know, had over 50 direct reports ah that were, you know, in various different aspects from an EMS service line to government affairs, to media relations, to business development.
00:06:04
Speaker
But then we got acquired and, you know, I led all of our academic work from the healthcare system side. I led all of our workforce development work from the healthcare system side. And I felt, you know, with with where healthcare was at at that time, it was just acquisition after acquisition, merger after merger.
00:06:21
Speaker
And I was having my second son at the time.
Pivot to Higher Education
00:06:23
Speaker
And I thought, you know, I don't think I want to just go back to another healthcare care system to only be acquired in the future and have the same situation happen again. And so I started to talk to some of my mentors, some of which now are actually you know college presidents, two in particular, Alberto Cardea, who's in New York, and Dr. Warren Hilton, who's also in New York at a community college.
00:06:44
Speaker
And they said, you know look, you've done such great work with higher ed. um Why don't you consider going that route? And, you know, so I threw my hat in the ring and obviously, you know, ended up being chosen over many other candidates at Lebanon Valley to become their vice president of strategic initiatives, which was, you know, a role really focused entirely on strategy and business development and really helping them to think through how you f create more industry partnerships.
00:07:14
Speaker
Very similar to a lot of the work I was doing on the health care side. Spent a year there, honestly left there mainly because the president was extremely unpopular with the campus community.
00:07:26
Speaker
And I just I could tell the tension among the president's cabinet was extremely real. And I just knew. you know, probably this is not going to be a space that's going to be a long term for me.
00:07:37
Speaker
And then, you know, based on work we were already doing in the region, you know, another college president called me up and said, hey, why don't you come on over, which was Harrisburg University. And the president there said, you know, hey, I want to build out a health care business. You've got the background. Would you consider the opportunity? And so I went there and led, you know, was the inaugural executive director of health care strategy ah reporting to the president.
00:08:02
Speaker
which afforded me some really unique opportunities. I mean, you know, first and foremost, I was able to work with UPMC schools of nursing to grow their nursing program to support eight hospitals that, you know, were relying on one community college for their nursing workforce.
00:08:16
Speaker
So that was a great opportunity to create nursing pathways from a hospital-based diploma to, to you know, BSN, R&D BSN, to master's, et cetera. All right. Again, had the opportunity to work during COVID very closely with the State Department of Health and really work under the tutelage of Dr. Rachel Levine, who, you know, for the rest of my life, I'll look up to for all that she's accomplished, ah both in Pennsylvania, but also on the national level as our former Assistant Secretary of Health.
00:08:43
Speaker
And you know certainly you know was fortunate to be a part of a team that grew new academic programs in nursing, ah physical therapy, exercise science, and many others during my time there.
00:08:57
Speaker
And then I actually you know made my way into the ed tech space, which was the first time I was, I can remember I was extremely nervous, but I'm thankful that I had the opportunity, which was at an organization called Dignity Health Global Education, now called Opus V.
00:09:11
Speaker
And you know there, because Common Spirit was an investor, I had the opportunity to work in and throughout the largest Catholic healthcare system in the country around you know healthcare workforce development, education, and how they were better, not just supporting their workforce, but also the greater workforce globally.
00:09:29
Speaker
And so there I led there a global equity project to bring more equity into education and got to interface with you know, leaders and professionals around the world and places like Saudi Arabia and India and Europe and, in you know, many other spaces to help them, ah you know, see if we could bring bring them into a journey to eventually come to the United States. And some of them have now, which is great to see.
00:09:53
Speaker
great to see and you know And obviously, a lot of times in startups, you know your tenure can be short. Mine was there too. After a year, moved on. i was already doing an advisory consulting role on a project with Core Education.
00:10:08
Speaker
And um you know their founder, Rick Beyer, asked me to come over and lead two areas. One was really the B2B work of Core Education in their early days, which was to support ah really building that continuum of healthcare care programs with their academic partners.
00:10:24
Speaker
So everything from allied health certificates to degree programs, and then also really to build out their national health care strategy, which was awesome you know experience as well. I got to work with Advent Health and Advent Health University on a very large scale documented results oriented project that's still talked about today, where you know nearly a thousand members of their central Florida workforce obtained upskilling certificates and certifications that have now led them into nursing programs and other ah programs to better achieve their dreams and retain at a higher level within AdventHealth.
00:11:00
Speaker
And then I got a call from my former boss at Siemens that I met at a national event that I facilitated to your earlier point at conferences. And, you know, I had facilitated an event. We got to know one another and he was the head of growth and innovation within North America, within Siemens. And he, you know, called me and said, hey,
00:11:21
Speaker
you know We as a company really feel that we need to delve further into workforce development. And while we have all these initiatives related to imaging and and radiation therapy, we're not really doing enough to talk about the future.
00:11:35
Speaker
And you know I'm looking for someone that would be willing to do that and wanted to see if you you know could recommend anybody. and At first I was like, yeah, I'll give it some thought. I'll find some people for you. and and And then he said, well, you're not getting the picture. I'm really looking for you just to say yes. and So I first told him no.
00:11:54
Speaker
And then he stayed on me for a while because I was happy with ah what i was with what I was doing. But then, you know, I started to sit down and think like, you know How many opportunities do you get to go to a global med tech company in a new role that you can craft and design, how you do it with a leader who you know certainly was extremely innovative, very thoughtful, care deeply about these matters?
00:12:18
Speaker
Yes, anytime it's a publicly traded company, it's going to have its challenges. But certainly that Siemens brand means a lot, too. And so, you know, eventually
RisePoint and Jeffrey's Mission
00:12:29
Speaker
I said yes. And, you know, obviously they they also requested that we relocate to North Carolina to their customer service headquarters and and near the in Raleigh. I was born and raised in Pennsylvania.
00:12:42
Speaker
But, you know, I thought deeply, too, about that opportunity. I mean, here was a global publicly traded company, full relocation. the opportunity to learn more, grow more, both not just nationally, but globally because of the type of company that they are. and So made the decision and you know spent over two and a half years in that role.
00:13:04
Speaker
And a phenomenal role, a phenomenal experience took me to places like Oxford University to speak on workforce development and speak around the globe virtually and participate in initiatives in Asia and other places and to craft and design and ultimately have approved.
00:13:21
Speaker
And in Siemens, when you have it approved, it's like everyone under the sun has to approve it. ah You know, global workforce development ecosystem that still is being applied today. um but You know, the biggest challenge I had there, and my former boss and I talk about this now too, he's no longer at Siemens as well, is, um you know, in a global publicly traded organization, innovation takes a lot of time.
00:13:46
Speaker
And sometimes you face that that hurdle of and challenges of legal. And so I just couldn't really get legal beyond and and others, particularly beyond the fact that when you're building a sustainable health care workforce, A, you don't have to be paid for it, um you know, which sometimes can be challenging in those environments. They think everything should be paid for.
00:14:10
Speaker
i am a much big believer in corporate social responsibility and global social responsibility when it comes to these matters. And so There were some definitely philosophical differences, particularly and certainly respect where they were coming from. But, you know, an opportunity came, ah you know, my way to consider, you know, the moment to lead health care, education and workforce development at RisePoint.
00:14:38
Speaker
And, you know, as I was telling you, Fritz, I always had this intrigue because I did a lot of work when I was at Siemens with PE companies. And, you know, I've been a fairly regular speaker at at the health conference and Vive and other conferences with other PE-backed companies. And so I was intrigued to think,
00:14:52
Speaker
You know could I be in a role where I could innovate and disrupt and have more results more quickly, but still be rooted in mission? And so the mission of RisePoint, the executive team, really was was intriguing.
00:15:07
Speaker
But I'll tell you, there was still a hesitation because, you know, while we do not view ourselves as an OPM today because of all the differences that we do do, There was a lot of hesitation for me because I knew the reputation and whether that's you know positive or negative. I know you know a lot of people have various different views.
00:15:25
Speaker
But when I met my boss, Dr. D. Ranieri, who had been a chief content officer at Coursera, was a leader at you know at Northeastern University, has been very much a disruptor, a positive disruptor.
00:15:44
Speaker
but also someone truly trusted by many presidents and provosts around this country and around the globe. I again thought, you know, who am I to to make a decision on what may be viewed as past reputation versus, you know, why not take this opportunity to learn from D, but also, you know, have this opportunity to also build a new healthcare business.
00:16:07
Speaker
And so, you know, that's kind of where it's at. I would summarize it to say mentors and and, you know, people along the way have really challenged me when I've, you know, either doubted myself or questioned why I would consider that. I'll never forget one of my mentors.
00:16:22
Speaker
His name is Tim. When I first you know said to Tim, and Tim was a long-term lobbyist in the Hospital Association of Pennsylvania. When I first said to him that, you know, I had gotten this call from Siemens, he said, are you crazy?
00:16:34
Speaker
Like, like, are you serious? Like, you really are going to not take that? And so, you know, there's been a lot of people who have sort of been that check to me to say, Jeffrey, you know, stop viewing things so critically or whatever the case may be and just jump in.
The Role of Mentorship in Jeffrey's Career
00:16:52
Speaker
There's a lot of ways we could go. Kelvin, is there anything you want to start with? Because I got, i you know me, I always have questions. Yeah, no, Jeffrey, thanks for that that overview.
00:17:02
Speaker
I feel like we're kind of kindred spirits and ah in a sense, because i what I loved about your your your description of your background, because you know a lot of times when you ask people like, oh, OK, what jobs have you done? And you know they give you kind of like a summary of those.
00:17:19
Speaker
But sometimes, you know i mean we all I feel like I learn a lot more when I i hear the context. right i mean A couple of for example, with Siemens, you talked about change management issues. and and you know Siemens is like a global company, but it's like one company.
00:17:36
Speaker
And so I was also thinking like that aligns with a lot of the challenges we have in higher ed. outdated thinking, low, you know, adverse to to risk. So then you have to like really try to tell your story about what you want to do in a way such that it doesn't like light up the the game operation, like all these, you know, different, you know, people saying, oh, you can't do this. You can't do that.
00:18:04
Speaker
I also wanted to highlight the fact that I'm not from Pennsylvania, but I worked My wife worked at Lafayette you know College for several years. And while we were there, I you know worked for Blackboard for a couple years for remotely. But before that, for four years, I was the director of online learning at Northampton Community College. So when you said, you know I knew about Harrisburg, but I didn't also know that you worked for Lebanon as well. So Oh, that's so cool. You were at Northampton, my matron, my mom graduated.
00:18:35
Speaker
i did a lot of work with Northampton in my and the Pocono campus when I was at my hospital. I was on there i was on the the main campus there. And it's actually, yeah as you were kind of talking about your stints from you know this job for a couple of years, that to this day, Northampton is actually the longest position I've ever held, in my large part based on some of the things that you highlighted too about your background.
00:19:00
Speaker
around having the right mentors, um the the VP for Academic Affairs, you know, Michael McGovern, Mike McGovern was really the person who gave me some cover to do some cool things. And I, and I'm from your background, I loved how you had mentors looking out for you, right? People actually calling you to inquire about different opportunities and,
00:19:24
Speaker
And so just, you know, just love your background, but especially i loved how you spent a little time kind of just talking about like all the surrounding issues.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah. And of course led to leaving an opportunity, but then also going towards something a bit better at the time. Yeah. You know, it's interesting too to your point, Calvin. i I mean, I went to Moravian.
00:19:46
Speaker
That's where i did my undergrad. And so, you know, it's it's ah super fascinating. The president of Northampton when you were there. Oh, i knew you were going to ask me. I might have to circle back with you.
00:19:58
Speaker
If I don't remember before the end of the podcast today, i'll I'll let you. Oh, Art was his first name. Okay. Okay. yeah So i bet did you ever work with Matt Connell?
00:20:09
Speaker
um Yeah, Matt Connell was there when I was there. I was there from like 20... ah I'm dating myself here, but 2006 to 2010, I was there. Okay.
00:20:21
Speaker
Yeah. So that would make sense because I started my career in the hospital in 2008. two thousand And eight and blow I mean, I worked a lot with Matt as the leader of the Monroe campus, but obviously he was part of the cabinet you know because of his role.
00:20:35
Speaker
Matt was also a great example that I had early on from the academic side, excuse me, who truly understood the bridge. I mean, just a phenomenal leader who understood that.
00:20:47
Speaker
In fact, one of the things Matt always did, which i I to this day do myself, is he would always say, if you're going to lift up a community, you can only do it with with collaboration. And he always said, it's bring education, bring health care, bring economic development, bring all those partners together.
00:21:04
Speaker
And then really from them hear about the biggest degree needs or educational workforce needs. and then deliver the solution rather than sit in a room and think all of us know what the answer is. And Matt was such a great facilitator of that.
00:21:17
Speaker
in fact, he and I were on ah on then at the time the county's like 2030 plan. And I represented health care here, represented education. And it was fascinating just to learn from him early on in my career of someone who had been in education for so long that understood that education wasn't just about enrollments.
Recognizing New Opportunities
00:21:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:36
Speaker
And I like what you said there about really it's a full court press. It's about ecosystem redesign, right? So, um you know, within Nash, the organization I work for, we're actually our workforce development team um is doing some great work um in the North, and new in the New England area, because they're trying to figure out a regional way to address workforce needs in areas like advanced manufacturing and nursing.
00:22:04
Speaker
And to your point, they've been trying to bring in like all these very players, right? So employers, people from, you know, education, workforce boards to really have a bigger conversation because in my work at Nash around the use of micro credentials and things, I have noticed that it's a very, you know, siloed ecosystem, right? Like work workforce boards do what they do. Higher ed, of course, has their partnerships with employers, but then those You know, those partnerships in the past have been maybe like every year, right? Invite people for pizza and you talk about the curriculum and of course things are moving so much faster because it's now 2026 and now we have AI and just other challenges.
00:22:46
Speaker
ah like schools closing. so you know, schools are now more on the hook to try to like stand out from a very crowded market. Yeah. um But I digress. ah let Let me pass it back to, to Fritz here, because I'm i'm sure Fritz has been sitting on some really good questions for you.
00:23:05
Speaker
So one of the things that stood out to me is, like Kevin was saying, there's a thread that weaves through your career path thus far, your arc. um And one of them is,
00:23:17
Speaker
you are not afraid to make a move, even though it's scary. And I know you have youngish kids. So, you know, when you're on your upward path in your career, you want to you want to be growing, but you're also looking at the reality is like, I got a family here. I got to, you know, what am I going to do? Can I make a move that's that's warranted and safe-ish, you know? so um one of things in higher ed is,
00:23:46
Speaker
a lot of people, it's a place where people would stay at an institution for much, if not all of their career and they'd move through it or even stagnate. People are in roles for a very long time. And um so think one of the things that would be interesting to talk about is knowing, knowing when it's time to look for something else, because I think a lot of people in and obviously beyond higher ed in the in the world right now, but think it's where the economy is. It's very,
00:24:15
Speaker
muddled, I would say, ah how you know when it's when it's time to, and it's okay, I mean, to to look elsewhere. You were saying how you've got mentors that help you frame that, to help check you and nudge you or outright push you, but what are some of the other, what are these just some of the other signs that, you know, and you were you were articulating them, but lap back through them, because I think that's an important thing for people in the higher ed to hear is that,
00:24:42
Speaker
um Things are changing so fast, you have to curate your career deliberately. Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, you do, when I look on it, right, and you see a lot of topic and conversation on on these types of things, particularly even online, right, on LinkedIn and and things.
00:25:03
Speaker
And when people have asked me, I always say you definitely have to trust your gut. There is an element of that. However, i think you also do have to have those mentors or some people call them a personal board of of of directors or advisors who you can go to.
00:25:18
Speaker
and And I find that that can be extremely helpful. Now, here's the one piece of advice I've learned. Make sure that if you do have that, that you have some people who will challenge you. So that it's not just people who love and adore you, but also will tell you.
00:25:32
Speaker
Because actually for me, it's been some of those folks. It goes the same way, Fritz, to your point, right? I mean, I'm just about to go into dissertation for my doctorate. And, you know, I've been very honest, particularly throughout this journey. I mean, I started a doctoral program back in 2015, and I quit within two months because I just quickly realized, A, that program would not have fit having, you know, then, know,
00:26:01
Speaker
Then one child with a second eventually, you know, coming or at least at that time hoping for a second. But I also realized that I just there was a moment where I was like, I just don't think I could do it.
00:26:13
Speaker
Was it a different field than what you're in now or what you're pursuing now? Yeah, 100%. You know, it it was different because it was like that executive format where you'd have to go on weekends. um And I love in person, don't get me wrong.
00:26:26
Speaker
But it was the idea that, you know, I would have to travel on a Saturday, an hour and a half to go there for that executive session. Yes, I'd be with incredible people. But at the same time, I'd be feeling like I'm not there as a dad.
00:26:39
Speaker
where, you know, in my program that I've been able to do through American College of Education, i can do it at all hours. I can do it when I want to learn. Yes, I have assignments, you know, that are due but they're eight-week classes, so I can plan ahead.
00:26:55
Speaker
When I travel for work, actually, is when I get a lot of my work done, because when I get back to the hotel and work is done, you know, I can i can just go head, you know, first into that coursework. And now I'm down to two courses left, one that starts, I think, Monday and then one more, you know, in the fall. And then I go into dissertation and, you know, I look at how much the college has also been supportive to me.
00:27:19
Speaker
You know, as somebody who's extremely busy, i mean, they've just been a phenomenal collaborator to achieve this dream for me. And so I'll say so much to your point that you do have to trust your gut.
00:27:33
Speaker
um You do have to, i still believe, like whether it's pros and cons or whether it's strengths and weaknesses, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to call it, create that.
00:27:46
Speaker
I can remember when I was really wrestling with Siemens, even after I had that conversation with one of my mentors, Tim, and Tim was as blunt and bold as he always is. I walked away and thought, well, this is easy for Tim to say. you know, he's in his 50s. You know, at the time i was in my 30s.
00:28:04
Speaker
Tim hasn't had children. i do. But as I started to like, you know, and my mom obviously is an incredible, you know, certainly my top supporter. But there are times where she'll challenge me too, without question.
00:28:19
Speaker
You know, my mom looked at me and she said, you know, just make a list. And, you know, look at that list. And if you feel there's something on that list that will, you know, cause challenges for you, really sit on that and, you know, take the time to analyze if if it's a if if you're trying to make a professional decision that's going to, you know, go against your personal decision.
00:28:50
Speaker
and really reflect on that element because yes, you do have a responsibility as a father. At the time I was, you know, then married, now I'm divorced. So, you know, obviously at that time I also had responsibility as a partner.
00:29:04
Speaker
ah And so I think that, There is a lot there, but that's how I've been
Mentorship and Team Growth
00:29:10
Speaker
guided to do it. And it's certainly been something that has worked. Now, I'll also say this. I mean, there's been times in those changes where in the first couple months, I thought, oh my gosh, I made a mistake.
00:29:22
Speaker
But then again, you know, a mentor will say to me, give it some time, you know, take the time, listen, learn, meet as many people. And so it's um been an incredible sort journey experience of reflection, you know, and I think that's something that I would encourage everyone to do is like, we don't take enough time to reflect and pause on these big decisions.
00:29:49
Speaker
And sometimes there's something internally that holds us back. And I will say if there's one thing I've learned from some of my mentors is they said, don't ever look back and say you regretted it.
00:30:00
Speaker
And, you know, that's a piece of advice I got from another mentor when I was looking at my doctorate. They said, you know, you're going look back and say you regretted it because you've always said you wanted to earn that terminal degree.
00:30:14
Speaker
You've always said you wanted to have that opportunity um to potentially go serve as a university president. And most are not going to accept you if you don't have that doctorate, which we know is true. I've got a lot of opinions on the matter, but, you know, it's a total different element.
00:30:29
Speaker
And so... I've really had to harness that guidance because it's true. And so now when I talk to individuals, to your exact point, in fact, I've had members of my team throughout my career where i've i've had the I've coached them or I've had to coach them to think about what their next move is. And you I'll never forget one who was an incredible young professional, had a master's of public health, was brilliant.
00:30:54
Speaker
Loved the work that he was doing with me and in our hospital system. But I could tell he had a burning desire to sell and he wasn't in a sales role. And, you know, one time i had an opportunity, i was supposed to go to a meeting with Intuitive Surgical.
00:31:09
Speaker
And I thought, what's the point of me going? Let him go. He went and by the end of the meeting, he had a job offer. And when he came to me, he said, you wouldn't believe what what that meeting did for me. And I said, I know exactly what that meeting did for you.
00:31:21
Speaker
He's like, what do you mean? He's like, did they call you? I said, no, i just know. And he said he said, are you okay with it? I said, absolutely. That's what you are born to do. And I know that that's your mission. And he went on you know, now he's at another one doing similar work.
00:31:37
Speaker
He's done a phenomenal job. And I'll never forget in that moment as a leader, when our human resources department said to me, yeah when they did his exit interview, he specifically cites said to them that I helped him to achieve this dream.
00:31:51
Speaker
And he was so happy about it. And instead of them saying that they were too, they said to me, i don't understand why you would have talked someone leaving this organization. And I looked at them and I said, i don't understand why you're even engaging that conversation because I didn't ask you for that, that input.
00:32:07
Speaker
Oh, I love it. I did. I did what's right for him. Kelvin's Kelvin's got his, his big happy smile on. Like, I love that. Yeah, no, I, I love that you were, you know, I'm disappointed that HR had that, that sense, but not surprised. Right. Because again, they're, you know, their, their interests are the company and maybe not always individual folks when they have to make big decisions.
00:32:34
Speaker
um But yeah, and I want a thousand percent plus one what you said earlier too, when Fritz asked you about that, you know the the things that you rely on, um yeah definitely we have to find a way to make sure that we're not trapped in an eco chamber while we're trying to figure this out in terms of you know taking out a new responsibility or leaving one behind.
Networking and Career Progression
00:32:59
Speaker
um And yeah, so just wanted to point that out. Well, first of all, I think you are a ah really good example of someone who you have a vast network that you engage with a lot and you've used that to find great opportunities that aren't in a direct trajectory. it's you know you And that's not to say you they should be in a direct tre trajectory, but you're you know you're you're moving around.
00:33:27
Speaker
you're moving laterally and up and around with a still a focus, you know, you're largely orbiting the healthcare space. Although you did say you, I mean, even when you went to an ed tech, it was still med ed tech, if I'm not mistaken. So, but you're, you, it seems like you're often doing that through relationships rather than, Hey, there's a job posted. I'm going to throw my resume and cover letter in with a gazillion other people and hope I'm the needle in the haystack. So that is critical. And I've talked to other people about this.
00:33:59
Speaker
that I know, some whom I'm married to. you know You have to connect to people and you have to you have to network your way over to things you wanna do. you can't just it's Look, I graduated college in 1998. Yeah, you could, by mail, by USPS, I could apply for a job, I could send a cover letter and a resume, and you could get a phone interview and then get a job offer.
00:34:22
Speaker
It was a crazy world. Kelvin, I'm sure you were in the same boat. like Yeah, faxing your application. Sometimes you have to fax it. You bring up faxes now to people, they're like, what is a fax? It's like a Jeopardy question. you know like So, mean...
00:34:35
Speaker
i mean That world doesn't exist anymore. And I think it's, in some ways, it kind of sucks because it was, I'm not saying it was easy, but it was just, it was much more, ah lot it feels like there's a lot less friction in a way. But now you can, through networks, you can find so many interesting places, but it takes a lot of work.
00:34:56
Speaker
And I feel like you, you're a great example of you do the work and it's led you to opportunities that are align very much with what you do. And then you the ones where it's time to move on, you move on. That's great. But you're often finding that next thing through a relationship you've established either in a different organization that to where you're going. you know The president the university calls you up says, hey, I'd like you to come.
00:35:17
Speaker
i'd like you to, you i want you to be in this job. And maybe there's a process you have to go through. got to apply and be part of everything else. But that's that's an important point. And I appreciate that you articulating it so that people out there can hear it.
00:35:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's been a good life lesson, especially for me too, right? Is, you know to your point, Fritz and and Calvin, the what i learned, particularly after my first job, where, you know, i tell I've talked about this many times, I was crushed, um you know, in that process because we were acquired, i was on the diligence team of our smaller hospital And we were all promised you're going to have jobs post, um you know, acquisition. And then a month later, you know, they came to us and said, well, we're eliminating 70 director and above jobs. So I was one of them.
00:36:07
Speaker
And I was crushed because that job was so much my DNA. I loved the job, loved what I did, loved what I could do loved my team, loved the communities where I grew up. And it was in that moment during my severance where I can remember I said to myself, I'm not going to go anywhere in the future that um feels like I'm their brand.
00:36:32
Speaker
I've got to have my own brand. Yes, I can contribute to their brand. Yes, I can follow you know their brand from from a workforce, you know from being an employee. But I also have to have my own brand.
00:36:44
Speaker
And, you know, from that point forward, so 2017 forward, you know, that has been a labor of love. Certainly challenges at times. You know, certainly even when I was at Siemens, I was challenged many times, particularly with that, because they would say, no, we want you to follow the Siemens brand 100%.
00:37:03
Speaker
And I would always say to them, well, then I think there's ah there's a contract that has
Policy Impact on Healthcare Education
00:37:07
Speaker
to be entered there. I know if you want that, like if you want to maintain what I post and how I post it, then certainly I better be getting, you know, creator fees, ah you know, because ultimately I'm, you know, I didn't sign up to be your your community manager for social media. I did sign up to lead workforce development. And I was lucky to have leaders that would support me, you know, and and such, you know, in those types of conversations. And so I can't stress that enough because to your point, I mean, that's, you know, that's certainly helped me find opportunities, but it's also helped me find
00:37:43
Speaker
some of the best friends i have I've ever had and some of the best mentors and some of the best supporters and some of the best people who challenged me. And frankly, it's also helped me find some of the best team members.
00:37:57
Speaker
And so because, you know, I am a big believer. Yes, you want people to apply. You want people to go through a process. But I'm ah i'm also a big believer in if you know people's work. you know i want to do everything possible to get them into the team and certainly work with the you know people team or the ah HR team to help them see why.
00:38:15
Speaker
you know That piece has always been critical for me. So you're in the healthcare care space through RisePoint and obviously through the bulk of your career and the education side of it and the workforce development side of it.
00:38:27
Speaker
um How are you seeing, this is a policy pivot, Kelvin. How are you seeing or thinking about the impact of grad plus loan limits on professional healthcare education.
00:38:44
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I think this is a really important topic, uh, as it relates to the cost of healthcare care education and the perception of the validity of that cost. And I know it's real. I have wife who's a PT, my brothers and his wife are physicians, you know like, so I understand the, the costs and the tuition of, of professional medical education. So what are you, how are you all at RisePoint looking at that emerging reality?
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah. So certainly I can offer my insights. I can't give a RisePoint across the board, you know, statement on it. Yeah. You know, our government affairs team and our communications team. We don't want to get you into any trouble. Yeah. They would be the ones to issue that.
00:39:27
Speaker
I mean, from my vantage point, and certainly I have a team, you know, also of of our health professions education team. predominantly is actually a team of nurses that are are have all reached the DNP level and have also all been, you know, care providers in various different aspects from the emergency room to women and children, mother and baby, et cetera, all have benefited from those graduate plus loans.
00:39:52
Speaker
You know, i think, um and I will also say this is something I've told members of the current administration as well when I've had a chance to speak with them directly on these matters.
00:40:03
Speaker
you know When you're making policy, ah you've got to talk to those that are closest to the impact of that policy. And you know when I look at particularly where we stand in healthcare care workforce today, you know we're at one of the most challenging times in history.
00:40:24
Speaker
And we don't have fast enough solutions to really to even get close to sustaining what's required to address those challenges.
00:40:35
Speaker
So when you make a policy that limits or restricts or causes confusion on roles that ultimately impact the lives of everyday Americans, one has to sit back and reflect on where that's coming from.
00:40:51
Speaker
Who's the last lobbyist that was in the room with these individuals when they made that decision? Why penalize majority over a few bad apples?
00:41:03
Speaker
Now, are there some very bad apples that certainly have taken advantage of learners and students in the graduate side of nursing and in the graduate side of health care? Absolutely.
00:41:14
Speaker
For certain. But don't penalize all of them because the majority certainly have not. And so, you know, as somebody who spent, you know, since January, you know, spending time with, you know, 30 to 40 different ah healthcare executives, many of which are chief nursing executives, they're very mad about, you know, this policy change. And certainly it's great to see that a judge has stated, it but we all know, you know, who knows where the judicial system will go on this matter.
00:41:44
Speaker
But if we if we want to talk about the impact that it's already had, I could just say right now, with evidence in talking with institutions around the country, that some institutions, these are larger programs, certainly. you know If you look at an institution that normally, let's say, you know has an inquiry of 400 some students looking at a nurse practitioner program,
00:42:08
Speaker
More than 300 of them have decided not to enroll just plainly on this very issue, not knowing whether there's going to be a Grad Plus loan to assist them to fund that.
00:42:22
Speaker
Now, I also do believe employers have responsibility here, and employers need to get creative and and bold around how they can support learners to make those dreams happen. Because when an employer invests in an employee or in a future employee, retention improves too.
00:42:38
Speaker
So by this, you, you, does this by that, are you, do you mean employers who rely on those programs for their workforce? Is that, is that the connection you're making? That and also I do believe employers need to get creative around how they leverage their foundations ah to support scholarship. I mean, when I was at my hospital, for example, our our foundation, which raised money from donors, had a had sustained programs every year to support you know a number of learners to go through various different programs. and And i I do believe that you know this is a space where we have to stop this view this view of like competition in healthcare.
00:43:15
Speaker
We all need them. So if we band together as healthcare employers and, you know, get creative and innovative, 5250 doesn't work. We all know that it's not going to get you far.
00:43:27
Speaker
So we have to be creative around that. And so to me, it's both for it's like, I think you have to have um the the desire and willingness to think boldly around how you support employees more than ever, because there's so much uncertainty around at the federal level around loans, around frankly education as a whole, that people are literally on the fence of whether making this decision to to enter what could be the most impactful role of their future.
00:43:59
Speaker
You know, i look at on average, statistically, when you look at people who become an earth practitioner, um and they're going to earn a great income post that experience, right? ye And when you think about rural America, where especially many of our academic partners are at with these programs, with these people now being on the fence, that means our parents, our family, our loved ones potentially aren't going to have the same care, are going to have to travel farther for that care.
00:44:29
Speaker
Just because of a policy decision that was made without actually talking to people who actually understand the implications of that policy. Or frankly, and and and I say this as someone, now I don't work i don't work with any of the academic health side of the University of Minnesota, especially on setting tuition or anything like that. we I work on the other sides.
00:44:49
Speaker
But I will say as someone who does help programs, think professional graduate programs, think about where to price their tuition related to competitors and all that kind of fun stuff. To not understand, for at a federal policy level, to not understand what drives the cost of education and tuition is not, ah that's problem that's a problem to me because um if you if you start cutting, and yes, like you said, there's there are institutions that have taken advantage of learners. And they're honestly, i I'll say that to me, it seems like often they're taking advantage of their brand thinking like we can charge anything because we are
00:45:29
Speaker
insert your name of lead institution here. So, but to me, if you start, there's thin margins in healthcare education often. So if you start cutting, pushing institutions to cut costs, you're just going to start cutting quality to me, the quality of education that, cause it's, these are,
00:45:47
Speaker
very people centered. The cost is very people centered, but also the facilities. you can't you know You can't teach a dental program without the equipment you need to run a dental office or at least teach people how to work in one. So there's heavy capital.
00:46:04
Speaker
Health programs have healthcare problemss have intense capital requirements, it's not just needs, but that's just the reality. it's like That's the table stakes. um So why it wasn't put forth as a program by program evaluation, where, you know, a program is charging way above, let's say average, ah the average debt load for a person in that field or whatever, why it's a blanket policy, to me is lazy. I'm just gonna say, say it, it's not just lazy. And so I'm glad to see that it was stayed in the federal courts, but ah you know it's messy.
00:46:41
Speaker
So i appreciate your perspectives on this. Yeah, and I think to your point, it is messy, but I think the the other element that I think is super critical about this is that, um and obviously it's always hard, right? Because healthcare professionals are so busy for sure. And as somebody that you know teaches regularly, you know current and future healthcare professionals, one of the things I always say to them is you've got to be involved in the arena. So you know you've got to be engaged.
00:47:09
Speaker
You've got to make sure you advocate for yourself, but also your profession. And, you know, that has to happen at all levels. And so, you know, when you look at that stay, i mean, there was a good grassroots effort around the advocacy of bringing different groups together.
00:47:28
Speaker
you You know, that has to happen more so that, you know, I mean, you look at you you look at it from a political perspective, how many people are actually health care professionals as a whole in Congress, you know, both at at the state and federal level is a whole nother matter.
00:47:44
Speaker
But to your point, it is messy. And, you know, frankly, my biggest concern is really both for the learner and then for the workforce side of it. You know, our patients need to have good quality providers.
00:47:58
Speaker
And every time you have a decision like this, right? I mean, this, even from when it was made to when it was stayed, there's a good chance we missed enrollment yeah within that timeframe, right? Exactly. Which means we're going to have less, less providers in all those areas in the future.
00:48:16
Speaker
We already know the cliff is heat coming. It's already started, but the big cliff is coming. And now we've also had a significant increase um you know, blip in that cliff because of a decision that didn't even take into account the needs of this country.
00:48:32
Speaker
And so it's, it's, um it's just goes counterbalanced to where we are in reality in healthcare. And so um is this a factor now when you're working with, as in in your role in rights point, is this a factor that you're adding to the the calculus when you're working with institutions, you know,
00:48:51
Speaker
to make room for what the landscape could be like based on this and the kinds of consultancy and ah research and recommendations you're making. Is this, does this change the game for you all?
00:49:06
Speaker
for For sure. I think what it it, what it reminds us of is that at the end of the day, you know, if I think about even the work like that Kelvin's so passionate about in healthcare, care It's all about pathways. And I've always said that healthcare is a space for so long we really had like the game chutes and ladders. That's really what we've had in healthcare. care We haven't really truly had defined clear pathways from middle high school on up.
00:49:38
Speaker
And now we're getting to a place where we have more of that. And so i think what it what it um what it really pushes us to do in this work collectively is institutions have to get creative earlier to think about what are other programs that are actually going to sustain the workforce so that as we, as a country, shift further, you know, two years from now, and there's another administration that comes in,
00:50:07
Speaker
You know, how do you prepare for possibly more investment in education, depending on, you know, who may be the occupant of the White House or or who may control Congress?
Advocacy for Career Pathways in Healthcare
00:50:17
Speaker
And at that time, you know, you've got to be already working on the the most pivotal areas, which are allied health, you know, areas of allied health that can stack into other areas.
00:50:28
Speaker
You know, that type of thing is where I think um we generally see a lot more support even from governors in red states that are that are willing to think differently.
00:50:39
Speaker
i mean, I mean, I was just in Alabama not too long ago. I mean, you know, certainly not a state that you see oftentimes a ton of health care innovation on the workforce development side coming out of.
00:50:50
Speaker
But they're doing some phenomenal work with apprenticeships. And what those, you know, youth who are now becoming nurses, who are achieving nursing through an apprenticeship, you know, and sponsored by the state with investment from the state ah through community colleges and others is just that's the models that we've got to work on.
00:51:09
Speaker
while we're still working on all these other challenges. Because ultimately, we've got to build that longevity. The goal, you know, i look at a dear friend of mine who's a nurse practitioner who also benefited from those Grad Plus loans.
00:51:22
Speaker
you know, he started his career as a security officer at my former hospital. Wow. You know, went from security to nursing, became a nurse. And, you know, he he knew his dream was to become a nurse practitioner. So he never stopped.
00:51:36
Speaker
would not have been able to do it without those Grad Plus loans, for sure. But he started as a security officer. And so more of the story that I've been talking about, particularly with academia and also with with industry is,
00:51:50
Speaker
The best situation is actually to have more of that. I'm not saying you become a security officer, but go become a surge tech. Work in the OR. See if you really like it. And then if you really like it, study to become a nurse and become an OR nurse.
00:52:04
Speaker
And if you really like that, you know then come back and become you know a nurse practitioner in surgery, whether inpatient or outpatient. you know Those types of models become much more pivotal because we can start them earlier.
00:52:18
Speaker
You know, you can do a youth apprenticeship innovatively. You can do an apprenticeship innovatively. and And I'll add, I mean, one of the reasons why I was excited to come to Rice Point is, and hopefully I'll be successful with our team, is my dream is to launch more apprenticeship degrees with academic institutions.
00:52:35
Speaker
I think that the time has come for the United States to really fully embrace that in the healthcare space. We've seen it across the country. We have great models in place in states like Wisconsin today.
00:52:46
Speaker
My dear friend, Dr. Bridget Willey, you know, has rolled out three apprenticeship degrees with the Technical College in Madison, Wisconsin. They're solid. I've met students from there. It's the best experience of my life when I see, you know, these are people who started as youth apprenticeships.
00:53:02
Speaker
You know, now they've been in that system for six years already, and then they're going on for a nursing apprenticeship degree. all fully paid for by the employer, keep in mind, all their education, all the way through has been paid for by the employer.
00:53:15
Speaker
That's the type of investment I think we need to move more towards because it's sustainable. We can't rely anymore, in my opinion, on government in a lot of cases.
00:53:26
Speaker
To me, sustainable and historical, meaning yeah healthcare care is one space, ah corporations, technology-oriented corporations over...
00:53:38
Speaker
since you know the industrial revolution often apprenticeship in those institutions organizations was how people were brought up not like you're saying bolting that onto academic programs as well as it worked well then it can and should work well now so Yeah, and I, you know, one of the things I wanted to point out too is like there's such a you're right, I mean, I think for certain areas like, as we know, teacher education, certain IT areas, of course, the skilled trades,
00:54:10
Speaker
um healthcare. care You know, one of the things I think we're still missing, though, because it's it's different, because there's such a a strong gap, right, in terms of people to support healthcare, care because so many in the field are either leaving for various reasons, or they're For example, they're retiring at a high rate.
00:54:32
Speaker
And so we have to kind of like backfill these folks because the gap is there. And so apprenticeships, I think, really help in these key areas where there's such a deficit that needs to be rectified.
00:54:44
Speaker
The missing piece in higher ed, as we know, is that there's still not a lot of like experiential learning opportunities, regardless of what your major or pathway is. And so I think that's also going to be something that institutions will look at more.
00:55:00
Speaker
and to your point, Jeffrey, I think we need to kind of also figure out how can we provide more experiential learning, work-based learning, work-integrated learning opportunities,
00:55:13
Speaker
but do it in a sustainable way. um Like, can we move away from grant funds? Like there's organizations getting grants right now to, for example, bring companies like Ripen and others to do workforce, I mean, to do some type of work-based learning opportunity.
00:55:35
Speaker
But I feel like schools will need to look very carefully too at their pocketbooks and to see if there's maybe a way to shift some of those funds. um you know Maybe it is you know for internships and things like that, there's a course fee, but then we still have to figure out a way, maybe through philanthropy, like maybe through like some type of um foundation where we actually, you know if you go on internship, maybe we don't collect the tuition for it.
00:56:03
Speaker
But instead, we you know we we actually give back money. Maybe that's the the only way to do it initially is to say, maybe this course is at a discount or we're not going to really charge you. Or we need to find a way through maybe foundation funds to pay our students when they go on
Collaboration for Sustainable Education Models
00:56:23
Speaker
internship, right? That's the missing piece too, I think we have to solve for.
00:56:27
Speaker
Well, I think that's where these employee partnerships are really key because you can do, if the institution, instead of the institution bearing the cost of creating and offering experiential learning, which is great. I mean, yeah I had that through college and it was really awesome and and and very important for my learning, but If an, if a industry partner can do that and their institution is not bearing all that cost that keeps the the cost ballooning at an institutional level under control, it also, you know, an employer, if they're having interns, that's a
00:57:02
Speaker
that's a benefit to them. I mean, yeah yeah, they have to teach, but they also, they get a productivity boost out of that as well in an ideally, but yeah so I think there's, that's where there's a lot of opportunity.
00:57:15
Speaker
i think for it's like to your and Calvin's point on that. I mean, if you look at what UW Health has done in that, I mean, Bridget, you know, in in her time leading workforce development, I mean, she's an academic and, you know, a healthcare system leader. i mean, she,
00:57:30
Speaker
It was actually during her PhD where she birthed the idea of creating HOPE, which is the Health Occupations Professional Education Program that brings middle school middle schoolers and families together throughout the year to learn about all the different opportunities that exist in youth apprenticeships. middle something They have to go to HOPE, middle schoolers. They have to go to HOPE if they want to have the opportunity to apply for a youth apprenticeship job.
00:57:58
Speaker
They then apply for that youth apprenticeship job when they turn 16. And it's an actual job. So that's the difference. They weren't, you know obviously when they worked with the State Department of Workforce Development, with the governor's support, you know, they actually crafted all the language because, you know, they were the first to do it in Wisconsin.
00:58:17
Speaker
Other systems are now benefiting. ss SSM Health is also benefiting from this now. As well. But they're actually hired as a youth apprentice in jobs like, you know, off medical office. So you eventually could become an MA because obviously you got to then have the experience for the exam at age 18. CNA, all these things, they're getting the experience where they can do work.
00:58:39
Speaker
And then as soon as they can sit for the exam, they sit for the exam, they become credentialed. And then they're also shown clearly because there's a whole career pathways team. What's the next step of your career? Do you want to become a nurse?
00:58:51
Speaker
All right, here's how we map you to that. Do you want to become a respiratory therapist? Here's how we map you to that. And their retention has just improved significantly. They've, this model,
00:59:04
Speaker
Previously, before this model was implemented, they struggled to get MAs. They struggled to get, ah you know, CNAs. They no longer struggle. They've built their own sustainable way of doing this.
00:59:16
Speaker
Now, it's investment on the health care system side. To Kelvin's point, they've had, you know, they've had some grants under the Biden-Harris administration. They got ABA1, ABA2. But that was all supportive funding.
00:59:28
Speaker
They pay for the wages, they've built the infrastructure, that all would be supporting all the other aspects, whether it's transportation or you know other things that support it. Phenomenal model, and you know that's the type of model that you know ah my team, you know I mean, I spent time there when I was at Siemens, I've spent time there now at RisePoint.
00:59:48
Speaker
That's the model that we've been talking more to academic institutions and healthcare systems about because it's sustainable. you know, did it cost that healthcare system money? Yes. Does it still cost them money? Yes. But look at the ah ROI.
01:00:02
Speaker
Well, but they could also be spending probably as much or much more marketing to adult learners or 18 year olds, or, you know, Hey, you want to become a yeah nurse or whatever? I mean, it's where do you want to spend your money and how, and it can often be like you're saying a more efficient and more sustainable, beneficial to do it in a,
01:00:25
Speaker
in a novel way, an innovative way um that you're describing. Well, and and the college has benefited so much through it. Because, i mean, you know, you look at madison technical you know Madison Technical College, which is the community college there. They've now been able to grow their nursing program. Because what what the healthcare care system did is they went with them and got ASIN, the nursing accreditor, to actually satellite the hospital as an additional campus.
01:00:50
Speaker
Which then means the healthcare care system also, you know, created a joint faculty arrangement. So there's joint faculty at the healthcare care system who are faculty at the college. And they've been able to grow the program. Faculty-student ratio improves. You can grow the program.
01:01:04
Speaker
So they've been able to build that successfully for the nursing apprenticeship. They've done the same in a SurgeTech apprenticeship degree, and they've done the same in respiratory with great results. SurgeTech just rolled out this last fall.
01:01:16
Speaker
ah Respiratory rolled out, I think, just slightly before that. But it's been, you know, those are the models that we need to see more of. because it it it does not then have the same impact when federal government makes these changes.
Closing Thoughts and Farewell
01:01:31
Speaker
Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a really wide ranging and very engaging conversation. Appreciate it All the best to you as you keep moving forward in your role at RisePoint and all the other things you have going. You know, you looked in your, i look in your LinkedIn profile and there's a lot of some year to present, some year to present. Like you got, you got a lot of things that are running parallel. So and good luck with those. And also with your doctorate, it sounds like you're about to enter the dissertation phase, which um is its own thing. And it can be,
01:02:00
Speaker
great It actually was a very fun phase for me. Kelvin, I'll let you portray your own. Congrats on getting to that next step. So all the best to you, Jeffrey, and have a great rest of your week and weekend. Thank you so much. Thank you both.
01:02:15
Speaker
Yeah, thank you.