Transcript
Speaker: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Getting Stuff Done in Higher Education. Fritz Vandover. Kevin Schreiner is with me today. Kelvin Bentley is at a conference. um even know which one. We'll make fun of him later for not being here.
Speaker: He just needs to stop traveling. Yeah, and needs to stop traveling. Exactly. So most of the time we focus on topics in and around the academic lane of higher education.
Speaker: Today, though, we're going to focus on another major component of higher ed that is going through rapid changes and having a broad impact on the sector, and that's athletics. So from NIL deals and the transfer portal to revenue sharing and institutional governance, student athletics has been undergoing major changes over the last five plus years. So we thought it would be a good time and a good topic to dig into.
Speaker: So to help us understand these shifts, we are joined today by Adam and Kara Goucher, two very accomplished track and field athletes at the collegiate and professional levels.
Speaker: Full disclosure, They're among two of our very closest friends in my house, Kara and my wife, Stephanie. Is it middle school or grade school when you got to be friends? In middle school. Yes, like I've seen embarrassing pictures of Kara and Stephanie in little tutus and dance outfits. So we hang out quite a bit. Adam and I have become good friends because when you're married to a Duluth East grad from the mid to late 90s, you need friends. You need yeah you need company.
Speaker: Exactly. Exactly. So thank you both for being here today. So um introduction time. So. um Let me get my order right here. So Adam was a key figure in the legendary University of Colorado Boulder cross country program in the late 1990s. In 1997, he won the 3000 meter indoor race, then went on to win the cross country 3000 meter indoor and 5000 meter outdoor titles in 1998. And he finished his college career as an 11 time All-American and 12 time individual Big 8 then Big 12 conference champion.
Speaker: After graduating, Adam became a premier distance runner in US s with highlights including winning national titles in the outdoor 5,000 meter race in 99 and 2000 and becoming the only man in USA track and field history to win both the 4K, 4 kilometer, and 12 kilometer races, titles at the same US cross country championships in 2000. And then he went on to represent the US in the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games in the 5,000 meters. Not not being happy with that kind of accomplishments. Adam is also like, hey, I'm an entrepreneur too. And he launched ah Run the Edge based on his book with his buddy, Tim Catalano, a virtual fitness challenge company that he ran for many years. And now he coaches cross country and track and field in the Boulder, Colorado area.
Speaker: Not exactly ah an area known for its pumping out genetically superior track and field athletes, especially cross country. So he sees a lot of students and student athletes who are primed to become collegiate and probably professional athletes.
Speaker: Maybe some that he's even related to. Kara Goucher, during her collegiate career at the UC Boulder, which is where they met, Kara was a three-time NCAA champion, winning titles in the cross country 3,000 meter and 5,000 meter races in 2000. Not a bad...
Speaker: trifecta. She was a seven-time All-American and a five-time Big 12 conference champion. After your college career in athletics, you became a professional.
Speaker: Your professional career highlights include becoming the first American woman to medal in the 10,000-meter race at the World Championships, taking silver in 2007, finishing in the top three of both the Boston and New York City marathons in your debut, by the way, and competing in the 2008 and 2012 Olympics in the 10,000 and marathon respectively. Did I get that right? 5,000 and 10,000. Thank you for correcting me.
Speaker: And her memoir, the longest race reached number four on the best time New York times bestseller list in 2023. These days, Kara is an NBC sports program, a broadcast analyst host of the popular nobody asked us with design care of podcasts and an unabashed advocate for barring performance enhancing drugs among other things from sports.
Speaker: Adam and Kara, thank you so much for being with us today. So I told you both before we started, normally we talk about what is your path into and around higher ed, but since you both aren't don't work in higher ed, but you are through your history in being high school and collegiate athletes and then your professional athletic careers, and now you are both You see young people in the lane to become collegiate athletes or ones who want to be, all the things going on. And um that's why I thought it would be so interesting to get your perspectives on this whole world. So we don't talk about athletics lot here. We talk about other nerdy higher ed stuff, but um I kind of don't know where to start. I think one way to start would what are you seeing
Speaker: Now, and how do you how do you see it through the lens of your own experiences it through those through the time, the high school collegiate and professional lenses? What's your hot takes?
Speaker: I mean, everything has changed. i mean, the recruiting process has changed, the college experience has changed. So it's it's interesting because people will ask us about helping their kids with the recruiting process and the recruiting process is nothing like it used to be.
Speaker: I think the sport that we were in specifically track and field and cross country that's changed too with the, there's these companies now like called scholar book that go and authenticate,
Speaker: um athletes international athletes times from you know somewhere else other than the united states so there's a bigger influx of international athletes there's obviously n nil deals there's you know i it's just changed so much and so i think with some of the new rules and trying to get age restrictions and trying to get transfer portal limits it's all just interesting to follow but it's very different than what our experience was no it's completely different it's a um the nil um shift into college athletics is like um it's changed everything and and kind of turned it into the wild less and um i don't i think in some ways it's good and in a lot of ways it's kind of really hurt like college athletics and even you know subsequently down the chain even you know
Speaker: high school athletics and and how they view getting those athletes to, you know, can they compete at the, you know, collegiate level now, and now now that everything is so different.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I think just the, the, everything has just changed so much that I think that even from a high school perspective, it's like, you're looking at different avenues of getting into the collegiate system and not necessarily like, um,
Speaker: D one is always being the way to go. Like, you know, you think, oh I want to be a D one athlete. Even though you might be potentially good enough to run to division one level. Um, it might not be what's best for you as an athlete. And so, um, in your development. So, you know, I think in the future D twos are going to start, you know, from a, from a running perspective anyway, take up more of that, um, um, those assets.
Speaker: I'm going ask the stupid question. Um, cause I mean, clear there was no NIL when I was in high school. There was no NIL when I decided to go run out in Western Kansas, cross country and track in the middle of the dead of winter, freezing my little tushy off yeah for for for nothing other than I think I got, i don't even I didn't even get my full tuition paid for. Like it was it was literally a for nothing.
Speaker: So, and it's really kind of good. Like has NIL, and this is where you hear some stories, but you don't hear a lot, right? Like you hear, Tiger Woods' son got, I think, what, TaylorMade is sponsoring him at Florida State or whatever that relationship is.
Speaker: But you don't hear about all the other Florida State golfers. And so I guess my question is kind of, but you hear about football, right? You hear about football, NIL deals. You hear about basketball. I think you hear a lot about volleyball. you know And so has and NIL really like gone, is it like across all athletics now? Like pretty much everybody's getting some sort of,
Speaker: of relationship with something to to continue their athletic after high school. I would say that NIL has definitely entered the cross country and track and field space, but it's not this type of deals that football players are getting. You know, it's like it's really done for athletes that brands think will go pro. They try to lock them in in college so that they would form this relationship. But I've heard of NIL deals as small as just gear and then all the way up to like the highest one I know of is $80,000. But I think most of them are 10,000 less.
Speaker: And so it's not this it's not necessarily like life-changing money like we see in maybe basketball or football or something like that. Now, there are a few track and field athletes that are probably getting life-changing money. um i know that there's a decathlete and some you know hurdlers that are getting really good deals. But in general, I would say, yes, it's gotten to track and field, but it's not it's not the cool, fun deals that we're hearing about.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, they're not making millions. I think a lot of track and field athletes and correct me if I'm if I'm off on this, could participate in activities, sporting activities while in college versus you look at a football player.
Speaker: A football player can't do anything but play football. You know, fall, fall, fall, right? Like they do their four years and hopefully they go pro. But track athletes at least could participate in the summer games as a college athlete.
Speaker: they could participate in the world, right? Like they could compete at the national, like as long as they're not at at so early, right? Like they weren't being paid or they weren't being, i don't know if there was prize, like if they couldn't win prize monies, if there was prize money or stuff, but, but they had that opportunity to be in the national limelight more so in tennis. I mean, I think a lot of other, i think football is the one that's just like, they never can leave the field. Like they can't do anything other than that. And so I don't know if that's,
Speaker: I don't know where I was going with that other than just like therere there's an opportunity to be seen and to participate in things that football players never could participate in. They couldn't they couldn't do a summer camp with a pro team.
Speaker: They would lose eligibility, right? like So there was always that border. But yeah you could have ah you could have a very good high school track athlete, a very good college track track athlete,
Speaker: competing with professional athletes without anybody going, well, no, you can't do that. that's That's not the space for you. Right? I mean, that, am I off bait? I mean, is that,
Speaker: No, you're you're spot on. That's absolutely true. um the If you're good enough to make a qualifying time and world ranking to make it to, say, the US championships and then good enough to qualify and finish in the top three and make it to a world championships or an Olympic Games, yeah, you have that opportunity.
Speaker: And now you have, now these athletes can can take prize money. Whereas before you could not do that. I mean, and when I was in college, I made, I earned, made, remember distinctly multiple times having to literally send checks back, which crushed me because it was more money than I'd ever seen in my life.
Speaker: um And, ah but not not being able to accept it. So now they can accept that money. And it does give them a little bit of a step into the world stage with for sure. um But, you know, i mean, when it comes to athletics, like football, basketball, those are the money sports they're going to make.
Speaker: If you're good enough to be recognizable and you know nationally, whatever, you're going to be making some pretty good money, I think, most athletes. You know, what's interesting is i had a conversation the other day at a cross country meet.
Speaker: There's a senior where our son goes, and he's ah he's good, like he finished second or third that day. And he's looking at some schools. And I asked his dad, I said, Oh, is you know, is he looking at any D1 schools? And he's like,
Speaker: the pipeline is so restricted. They restrict their, they recruit so few cross country runners because don't know if it's because of, um you know, because there's all the, there's a whole direct revenue sharing that institutions do it. So there's NIL, which you can, you know, you can ink a deal with whatever apparel or brand you want to, but then institutions have to directly share revenue too, depending on the sport. So he's like, they just don't recruit, you know, d one doesn't recruit that many,
Speaker: say cross country runners right now, because and I don't know the dynamics, but that seems different and and odd to me. I think it's because with Title IX, there's also restrictions on scholarships as far as like female and male. And if you're a cross country athlete and you run indoor and outdoor track, that actually doesn't count as one athlete. It counts as three.
Speaker: Oh, wow. Really? So I was a three time athlete. yeah yeah ah Yeah. So I will, yeah, I will say like, now this is ever evolving and constantly changing, but i will say with the current situation, men track male track and field athletes or cross country runners that get that do all three, their opportunities are getting pinched down. It's not necessarily happening to the women because they need those numbers, but it's, it is happening to the men more. Wow.
Speaker: So one question we like to ask people is, you know, especially now in the higher ed world, AI is like every other word is AI.
Speaker: So we ask them, how do you track all these things? What are your feeders? Is it, you know, certain blogs or podcasts or whatever? Like, how do you how do you keep track of this so that especially someone like you, Kara, where you're on TV, you don't want to be caught flat-footed like, oh, did you hear the thing about the, like, what was it that just got voted on this past week? The ah the bill in the Senate. Oh, the, you know, Collegiate Sports Protection Act of 2026. Like, how do you track all this stuff so that you're not caught unaware?
Speaker: I mean, I just try to read as much as I can, you know, and like that passed the Senate quite easily, but it it sounds like it's going to have a harder time in the House, I believe. um But I just try to consume as much as I can. But again, like this is all foreign to Adam and I. I remember I think I was a senior in college when we were allowed to use our to keep our frequent flyer miles like that was such a big deal. that we actually got to have our frequent flyer miles. So all this is so different. And when they opened up the transfer portal last year, I thought this is or maybe a couple years ago, I thought this is crazy. So this new bill restricts transfer portal. I mean, I remember i signed with the University of Colorado with a female coach who left before I got there.
Speaker: And she called me and said, there's nothing you can do. You have to go for a year. before you can transfer. So I just encourage you to lean in. And then, you know, if you don't like it, you can transfer. Like I i just had to go. But what would happen if you had transferred in that old model? You would lose, you would lose a year of eligibility essentially. Yeah. So, so now I think in this new bill or whatever, it's, you get one transfer, one open transfer. And then after that, you do have to sit out a year, which,
Speaker: you know, I personally think is fair, but. And then you, and what is it limited to four years? Is it, it does, does it limit? They get five years of eligibility now that was new as of this year.
Speaker: And then it limits, there's an age range too. Like you can't be like 38. So there are athletes that came in this year. There are many, I just was reading an article about a cross country team with a 27 year old freshmen. So those will all be grandfathered in, but starting in the fall of 2027, believe your eligibility starts when you turn 18 30.
Speaker: Or gra I can't remember what the grad is start graduate high school, I think. And then you have five years. So it used to be only had four years. You could take five years to do it or four years of eligibility, but five years to do that. so you could have red shirt year. Now there's no red shirting. and You could compete. You could be national champion five years in a row. Right. But and jump to different schools.
Speaker: But you got to be done by 25. Yeah. yeah Now, there are exceptions for military, for religious reasons, for a school like BYU. And this is just trying to get a grasp on, it's my understanding of, you know, keeping it college athletics and not professional athletics or just bringing in a ringer to win a championship or whatever.
Speaker: So, but it's always changing and it's it's hard to stay on top of it.
Speaker: Yeah. um So one of the things that came up in my digging around about this, I have to be honest, I normally don't do a ton of research when we talk to people because it's stuff I've been talking and thinking about for decades. So it's like, I just walk in and like, oh, let's just talk. This one was different. Like, I don't know that much about this world, but um you know, you like you just said, you, when you went, your coach that you recruited, you left.
Speaker: So you like, well, I'm at UC Boulder. So you Boulder, I'm going to stay. um let' Talk about you know the team dynamics. When you're when you're part of and a team for your whole years of college, what does it do when you're like, you know I had a great experience here, but I'm going to transfer another school, and I'm going to transfer again. What does that do to the to the whole experience? Not just for students, but just the the fabric of collegiate athletics.
Speaker: Well, i I think Adam should answer this because he had such a good team experience, but I will say it changes the way athletes are even developed. There's no long-term development anymore because if an athlete isn't happy, they're just going to leave. Right. and you know, we both ran out a program that was like, you are not going to be your best your freshman year. You're going to be your best your senior year. And all that patience and that buy-in that you had to do no longer exists because athletes are just hopping around. I'm not happy here. i didn't run as fast as I wanted, or i'm not get I got an offer to go somewhere else. So it actually crushes the team dynamic, in my opinion, because there's no loyalty. But you had a very good team dynamic experience in college. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I did, and I can't imagine what it'd be like to have athletes just transferring in and out all the time. You know, you're saying, um natural cohesiveness, synergy, you know, bond that you create with, with your teammates. And, um, to, I, I, I can't imagine just being like, well, you know, I'm going go to this school now because they're offering me, you know, a hundred K to go there and whether or not it's the best situation for them or not, like, um,
Speaker: you know, it's, they're, they're like following a money, you know, following a trail of like, well, I'm going get paid versus not necessarily the best development for themselves. Versus like, I'm going we're going to build something together. like to me, if you've never read the book,
Speaker: Not you two, but to our listeners. If you've never read Running with the Buffaloes, it's a great read. It's about the 1997-98 season, Adam? 98, yeah. 1998, yeah.
Speaker: Cross-country season, and spoiler, I mean, it's public record, but... This is when you won your title. and But it talks about really the years leading that season, but all the the history of it. And it's that you really get a sense of the team dynamic. You guys, you all grew up together. Yeah. So it's it really it shows inside that experience of we're team. We're building together. Here's the ups and downs of that season. So read the book. It's a good read. It's a page turner.
Speaker: It's a, I mean, yes, it's a, it's a good, it's a good book. It's a good story. Um, and it does, it, it shows, I mean, Mark, our coach at the time, his whole goal was to bring in, as a freshman, he brought in five, five freshmen boys who he wanted to step on the line their senior years and with senior year and win the national NCAA.
Speaker: And you were in that freshman class. And I was in that freshman class. yeah And, um, for For Mark in coaching at the time, it was about developing your athletes to be the best that they could be.
Speaker: And now it's just a completely different story because the universities are are pressured to to just win national titles.
Speaker: And so what you're seeing, like, for instance, at the University of Colorado is a perfect example. I mean, there's it's across the board, but... the coach that's coaching there now is he's not interested in developing anybody he's interested in in he's getting high pressure from higher up to win a national title so he's like if i'm gonna win a national title i'm getting this pressure i need to get athletes that are ready to go now and so he's going out and essentially buying foreign athletes he's brought in trying to bring in six kenyan athletes this year
Speaker: which is completely, sorry, which is completely against the history of our program at the University of Colorado. Like it was an all American program and we didn't recruit, you know Mark never recruited a foreign athlete.
Speaker: So here's the thing that's interesting to me is, i mean, student athletics, it's right there in the name. I mean, part of, this is the big picture stuff. Part of college is maturation, intellectual, social, personal,
Speaker: All those things, that's that's part of what the college experience is for at least a bachelor's degree. And this turns all that on its head. If you're just bouncing around between teams and part of student athletics was that too, you know, you hear, you hear, I mean, college football coaches still say like, Oh, we're we're trying to develop these into strong young men, you know, we're confident and smart and, you know, we're like a family, all that stuff. They still talk about it. So this to me just washes a lot of that away in the pursuit of titles and all that. And yeah,
Speaker: maybe it starts to filter that down more to D2 and D3 athletics. I mean, we hear our daughters being recruited in a lot of places for track and field. She's a high jumper at D3 schools. And that's, we hear a lot of that.
Speaker: You know, we work together. We're here to grow, yada, yada, yada, which is great to hear. But um Kevin, I've cut you off a couple of times. Get in there. No, I mean, you're basically saying the same thing that I was going to say. I think, I mean, NIL to me has lost the whole student athlete purpose, right? And so exactly what you're you're saying is, you know, now we're going to go recruit all these people who who can come in and win this year. And we don't care what happens to them after this year. If we win this year, they decide to go somewhere else, fine. Or where they stay or what. And it in the the camaraderie and what you build. And I mean, I i loved my two years. I mean, I ran a community college and loved my two years.
Speaker: Hated the the cross country meet that I had to do at the Air Force Academy two years in a row. That just about wiped my ass out. But it's it was it was fun. I mean, but at the same time.
Speaker: i wasn't there to run cross country. I was there to continue my education, and I think that's the piece that's missing, just seems to be missing now, is that we're just bringing people just to play the sport and we're not bringing people to actually get a degree from our institution or to be that alum that's going to to carry us, you know that wants to be here for the degree. And I'm not saying, and I'm trying not to make a statement that that's how all athletes think and that's what they're doing, but it just seems like that's what the in i that the direction that we've gone with college athlete athletics has really just been, we just need bodies that are superior bodies to do the function we want them to do
Speaker: And if they continue and graduate, great. But if they don't, that's okay too. But yet I look back on, so my, one of my first jobs when I went to the university of Arkansas was I was a tutor in the athletic center because I was former athlete and like, oh, you know, this'd be great. You could tutor history in, in, in the athletic center and those kids wanting to like, understand what's happening in a class and how to do better in their, collective like the, like,
Speaker: I don't like this and athletics spent so much money building student success centers for a I don't even know they exist. Like, do we still have them?
Speaker: Do they still function the same way? Like, do we care? i just, I just feel like all of this has really put a negative to what higher ed is about.
Speaker: Right. Like it's because now people, people never understood how, how athletic funds worked anyways. You know, everybody always thought, oh, your tuition is paying for the football coach that's making a million dollars. No, it's not.
Speaker: But now this has, like, made it even muddier. Anyway, so I just say all that just to say, i mean, I just think it's, you know, to to put out there what you went through, you know, with your team in 98, I mean, it's not much different than what I went through with my team and in 89, right? Like, I mean, it's just, it's it's that connection. It's,
Speaker: It's the people that you knew you could go to and the release that you would get after class versus like, that's the only reason that I'm that i'm here. Yeah. i mean I mean, kudos to you for all your all your wins because I was not that person. Yeah. um yeah what we see now is is it's not about education.
Speaker: it doesn't seem to be about education anymore. And like, like you go to college, you get an education, to get your degree to, to, you know, succeed in life. Um, and I think that the, my guess would be, you know, I hear a lot of stories about athletes, like, especially, you know money sport athletes aren't even going to classes.
Speaker: So how are they doing the bare minimum if they're not even going to classes? So somebody's either they're
Speaker: doing the bare minimum handed handed tests that are basically have all the answers and just to to maintain their eligibility, which i would fully believe is happening um or or someone's doing all their work for them or what, but it's about money and them making money. It's just taking the the professional level and moved it to the collegiate level. So you take an NFL and now it's just starting in at the collegiate level and there's no more, let's mold these, these young men on the football team. you know
Speaker: into into scholars. And yeah. I think like for a lot of those athletes, it's not even necessarily their fault. They're in some of these power conferences. They're traveling every weekend. How could they even go to class? They're traveling on a Thursday or a Wednesday or whatever. It's like, what are we doing? i totally agree with you, Kevin. it's I thought the whole point was to get a college degree and then you also got to participate in sport. And I don't have a problem with the idea behind NIL. I do think that athletes were being taken advantage of, but it feels like originally we just rushed it through and now we're dealing with all these dire consequences in which school doesn't even matter anymore. I know so many track and field athletes that don't finish. You'd be shocked. So the most accomplished athletes
Speaker: NCAA champions, all these titles, and they never even graduated. Well, i I have a degree program for those folks that would like to come back and finish their degree. Yeah, nice. Nice, nice. just on my life So that was one thing. i mean, I don't track this, you know, the completion rates amongst athletes, but I was one one thing I'd be interested to if anyone out there listening tracks this is.
Speaker: are comple are they already seeing completion rates change negatively or positively from post NIL and revenue sharing and transfer portal stuff? Like, does that change it? Because if you're able to hop around, you' able to make a crap load of money, um,
Speaker: you know does it' like I don't need to finish. This is just like a training camp, a four-year training process for me for whatever my sport might be. And I don't have to finish because I'm already, you know I got this deal. I'm going to run for this or play for that or whatever. So I don't track that, but I'm sure someone does and will and will write a a conference paper or a dissertation about it.
Speaker: The University of Central Florida used to do some sort of tracking. I mean, in theory, they're supposed to that's supposed to be tracked anyway, I think. No, but not the university itself. there there was a um um like It's a research grant. like There's a okay as a research entity at the University of Central Florida that used to report. I've not seen it for a while, so I don't know if they are still doing it or if it's gotten. going to try to find it I mean, that would be fascinating to see because my theory just based on, you know, I live in this space of broadcasting and we're constantly seeing kids come out of college. And based on what I hear,
Speaker: I'm hearing that kids are not graduating the way they used to. So it would be very interesting to track that across all sports and see what has this really done? i you know, like, I don't know. I just, I do feel like you guys, that the whole point was to be a student, a student athlete, not an athlete, a student athlete. And that's just gone by the wayside. And I appreciate you saying that because i mean, you, you two were at the peak in college for sure. you were,
Speaker: NCAA Division I track and field and cross country champions in many events. But then you also went on to long professional careers, Olympics, broadcasting. like You're saying both graduated. I was there to get my degree, right? So this gets into territory that as we were talking, I was thinking about this.
Speaker: what are What are some of the things... you think are not being talked about in all this new landscape? I mean, we've talked about transfer portal and revenue that you can get from and NIO, whatever. What's something like no one's talking about, but you're seeing, you're already getting at it. Like kids aren't graduating. They're not, they're high high performing, making a lot of money, but they're not graduating. What are some other stuff that people just aren't talking about in this whole new mishmash landscape of college athletics?
Speaker: I think kids getting a lot of money and they don't know how to actually, they don't understand finances. um And, you know, being five, six years down the road or even sooner, winding up with no education, you know, ah no money anymore because they didn't know how to manage it I just think you know one of the things that we were really always hyper aware of was that while our peers were building themselves in their work environment, we weren't. you know We weren't developing skills. We weren't climbing the corporate ladder.
Speaker: we were just running. and so we were always, Adam was hyper aware of we have to be saving our money because at some point this will end and we are so far behind everybody else that went into the workforce.
Speaker: And um because of that, Sometimes I hated him because we aren couldn't buy what I wanted, but he was so right. But I do think like that stuff isn't being taught to these athletes or these kids are not seeing the long-term picture of, yeah, you may have this money now, but you're spending it like it's going to be there forever.
Speaker: And now you don't even have an education or a job and the money is done, you know? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, i I mean, I remember, I just distinctly remember at CU, we had, there was a, there were, there was like a a, like a pyramid chart, basically, of the percentage of athletes that went on to, from college to compete at the collegiate level, and what percentage went on to. And I remember at the end, for dentford football players, it was like, 1%, or, you know, it might have been even under 1%. And so,
Speaker: And i always took pride in that because it was like 0.01% to make it to be an Olympian, you know? And so I was like, yeah, we're, yeah, whatever. So ah we, I just remember, and i always heard the stories about athletes that they would, they would graduate and they'd start making millions and millions of dollars. And you, we've all heard this of the athletes that, you know, they, they've gone and they just spend and spend and spend and spend because they weren't,
Speaker: you know, they weren't taught or they didn't have people in their corner to teach them to be like, no, put this aside, spend this amount, you know, whatever. um You know, so you have something when that career is over, because when that career is over, if you haven't saved your money, if you haven't done that, then you're so far behind. What do you do when you have no money and you're, you know, no work no work experience and you're, you know, you're retired, you know, broken,
Speaker: you know, NFL player or NBA player or, or, you know, Olympian for that model. So, um you know, I know ah the unions in NFL, probably NBA, and I know, I follow, I mean, I don't follow it that closely, but Major League Baseball, they do have financial literacy,
Speaker: programs for their for their members and their unions because um because of those kinds of things. But now you're now you're what you're describing is it's moving that that challenge and that danger up into kids who are 18 younger because they have and n NIL deals, 18 to 22, right? They're kids and they're being told you're so great. They're being told you're the next big thing. And you know what? If they don't pan out, these people don't stay with them.
Speaker: They move on to the next kid that they think is going to pan out and they're kids. And taking a percentage of whatever it is that they're making. Exactly. So we've gone from, i mean,
Speaker: you can use the word exploitative. You two would know more than others, but you know, when it was purely amateur and you could only essentially get a scholarship, you couldn't monetize your performance pre NIL, pre revenue share, all that stuff.
Speaker: Um, you know People have said it it was exploitative of of athletes. Because all they could do is get a scholarship probably and if they kept going and didn't get injured, whatever. so now we're in a... It's almost like it's a different form of exploitation in a way. We've gone from... Now you're not amateurs, but you're still being mined for your talent. You're being compensated more now, but you're still being mined. Does this this whole new schema, does it change? Are you seeing...
Speaker: Adam, where you are and Kara, where you are, do you see like the injury, the arc of injuries moving around? Like, does it, is it shifting it? Like students trying to get revved up to get deals and get into schools and get the revenue options.
Speaker: They're working harder and training harder and getting injured earlier in their athletic lives. You seeing anything like that too? Yes. yeah Yeah. Yeah. It pushes everything down. Right. So the college athletes are training like professionals.
Speaker: The high school athletes are training like college athletes and we're snuffing out talent by making them train above what their bodies are ready to do. And I, we see it all the time. And what we know is track and field.
Speaker: That's what we know. I don't know a lot of the other sports, but we see it all the time. kids training so hard in high school, running unbelievably, getting their scholarship, getting their NIL deal and doing nothing.
Speaker: And not because they don't want to, not because they're not working hard, but because they have dug such a big hole that their body wasn't ready to do yet. And they're, they're essentially burnt out at age 19. And you, you know, you two had your own, you had your, I know from knowing you for 20 plus years, like, but you had your own injury journeys yeah in college and as professionals, and you know what it takes to, you all know, you you know that world and what it takes to put yourself in that hole, what it takes to get you out of that hole. So you speak with authority on that.
Speaker: Yeah. and You have a limited time, you know, and you have to, you can't be training as a 15, 16 year old child at at a ah level that is beyond what you're physically ready for. And not only that, I mean, it's just the and there's also the mental side of it The intensity is so great that it just, you can you can handle it for a while.
Speaker: right um But inevitably it just it just trashes presses you and you're just done. I mean, this isn't new. Think about the little league world series and none of, I'm not trying to be mean, but they don't go on to become professional baseball players.
Speaker: There's like a hard stat there. I think what we're just seeing it in more sports now. Yeah. You know, there's a great book about that called, I think it's called the arm about, uh, overloading young pitchers and the you know kids in high school or younger getting Tommy John surgery and crazy stuff. It's a good read.
Speaker: night i I think this is like the NIL thing, all of this, there it could have been done in such a way that would be so much more productive and actually so much better for these athletes. I mean, like I look back at my lead up in you know high school. I'm very low mileage trained, but you know i worked every I worked throughout the school year, worked all summer long. I came to college, full ride scholarship.
Speaker: But yet I still every summer, I work two jobs every summer and I trained 80 to 90 miles a week. And um trust me, i was bitter about that because a lot of my teammates, and most of them came from decent money and they didn't really do anything. They didn't have to do anything. um But that made me feel like.
Speaker: empowered in some ways, like, all right, I'm i'm even tougher than than more. I'm just that much tougher. But, you know, there was there there was a point like where once the season started, this is how messed up it was. Once the season started and school started and you were there, like you were not allowed to work as ah as a full scholarship athlete. Like I could not, I was not allowed to work anymore.
Speaker: But I still have bills to pay. And yeah, I'm a full ride scholarship, but it doesn't pay my bills. Right. It doesn't pay for everything. Tuition room and board. Tuition room and board. And like, oh do you want to go out with your friends to dinner? Do you want to go to a movie?
Speaker: Do you want to pay put gas in your car? Do you want to, you know? Boy, Kara, he was quite the catch, wasn't he? Yeah. So, I mean, there's things. And like what I'm saying is like, i you know, like,
Speaker: It's crazy that that it just shit it's shifted so much and for the better. um For the better it's shifted, I think, to a point.
Speaker: um like
Speaker: You shouldn't, if you're on a full ride scholarship at a university, like you shouldn't have to be worrying about, um working two jobs every summer or working all summer long, like, and and expected to train at that same intensity and same level. So, um, there's, there's just, it's just, they overshot it Yeah. I mean, I think there was always that fine line, right? Like there was the athletes that were getting, I mean, I remember when I was at Arkansas,
Speaker: there are athletes that were getting jobs at like a local car dealer or whatever that happened to be a donor and raised red flags with the NCAA. Like, are these people really working or are you just giving them $700, $800 a week, you know, as payment for for the things that they're doing, right? And I think that's always been like, I think that's partly what NIL,
Speaker: in an extent, tried to kind of fix was like, let's stop hiding the fact that that there's donors out there that are willing to help support these athletes in the open. Yeah.
Speaker: And I think, but again, to your points, I think it just has gone for, can can I just shift gears just real quick? Because I'm just really interested, Adam, in when you left college, and you don't have to get, I don't want the monetary details of stuff, but like when you left college, how did you create a professional career, like, like, how did you get into running as a career?
Speaker: And maybe not, maybe I'm making that incorrectly. Oh, this is like a whole, we could spend a whole day talking about this and we've talked about it lot. I always ask them questions, but these are, this is interesting stuff. So carry on. I mean, there are,
Speaker: you know, they're agents that are at the, you know, professional agents that, that are monitoring sport. I mean, you're, as you're, the better you are in college, the more successful you are, then you're gaining the eye and attention of, of, of essentially shoe companies. Right. And it's, I think it's changed more now. There's more opportunity, much more opportunities, but like yeah our only option was like, you're going to, you're going to graduate and you're going sign with a major shoe company.
Speaker: and you're gonna be getting paid to train and race wearing their apparel and their gear. And so as soon as I was done with my, when I won the NCAA title in 98, I was done. i still had you know I graduated in December of 98 and i bypassed, I did have one more year of eligibility in indoor, but I had already won two NCAA titles in the indoor 3000. It wasn't gonna make me any more marketable to stick around and do And and and it by then I'm like, all right, it's time to make some money. so So basically it came down to hiring an agent, you know connecting with an agent, deciding, yes, this is the person I want to represent me. And then them shopping around and shopping the deal with with multiple shoe companies. and is
Speaker: And was that your experience too, Kara, similar? um i didn't have an agent. i i I basically, ah people were not very interested in me, I think because I won all these titles and then my senior year of track, I didn't run very well. And so I basically, with my coach put together a proposal and Nike was like, we'll do that deal.
Speaker: Yeah. And so, and so those are what supported you to do. Yeah. Years of national events and. Yes. Yeah. correct Yeah. And so and within a contract, you you're getting, you know, you get a base salary and then, you know, typically, I mean, you'd have a base salary and then you have bonus structures and then you'd have.
Speaker: So, you know, depending on the contract, the reason I. is We talked all day about this, but but depending on the contract, you have bonus structure. So whether you finish in the top three, you know you win the national title, or you know or you make an Olympic team, like's or you run a certain time in an event, whatever, those are bonuses that you're getting paid on top of that. And then if you go on, i mean at you know there's you compete all summer long. So for three-month period, pretty much,
Speaker: you're worried we were over in Europe competing in track and field air athletics, right? And so you would go to meet and you'd get a certain amount of money to show up unless once you, once you are good enough, you got, you to get a certain amount, you'd get appearance fee and then you would get prize money. But usually, you know, if you finish in the top, you know, five or 10 or something like that, you'd get a certain amount of prize money.
Speaker: So that's kind of, that's basically how it worked. Yeah. i mean, I was just, Partly just curious, i mean, just because talking about the financial piece, and i think I think you're exactly right. I mean, athletes, especially now, it's funny, I think I keep seeing more and more commercials with banks, with either real early professional players or college players about, oh, here's here's how I'm working on my savings account. And like this type, like, you know, go get a bank account and put your money in there.
Speaker: um But I think we missed that with higher ed in general. right yeah but i mean i think all of higher age just misses the whole what what it means to find how how to manage your finances yeah to get through college and I hope I don't put myself out on the plank here. You know, um the University of Minnesota just said they have a $9 million dollars operating deficit in their athletics program and they attributed it to revenue sharing. Like we had, we went farther than our revenues to share revenue with athletes we wanted. So, and I've heard that bigger ones, you know, 20 million deficit or more at some other programs, you know, SEC schools and others. So that's, you know, how are they going how are they going resolve that without, know,
Speaker: That's in the context of the University of Minnesota just announced over next two years, we're going to cut $230, $180 to $250 million dollars out of our operating budget. 12% to 15% cut. For athletics?
Speaker: For the whole university. Okay. okay and this is my yeah This is why so many men's teams are in danger because track and field is an Olympic sport, right? We don't generate revenue. and You come to the meet, maybe you pay $5 to come in or whatever maybe they even charge more now for those indoor meets but probably we always get passes because we're i we've earned our way we earned our way yeah but it's not making money right it's not even paying for the the volume the people that are there to measure the records yeah so it's measure the mark so it's we are our sport and you know volleyball maybe even i don't know maybe volleyball makes a little bit money but tennis we are dependent on football and basketball to have
Speaker: good seasons to get lots of press to make it to the bowl games and so that's why we've started to see men's sports specifically wrestling and track and field start to get cut from programs yes which is not good which is not good because men's track and field is one of the most diverse sports on college campuses it is the most And so it's it's a really dangerous scenario. Like you're taking away opportunity from so many people, but at the same time, as you're talking about being millions and millions of dollars in debt, this is, these are the consequences of that.
Speaker: Yeah. It's the same thing that we do on the academic side. Right. So, you know, athletics. And again, i think we've all kind of, I mean, like volleyball, basketball,
Speaker: football, You know, do you know the majority i mean so at Tuskegee, we just started our first men's and women's soccer this year. So it's the first time we've ever had NCAA division one division two.
Speaker: Division two. Okay. Yeah. But it's first time having soccer. Right. So even that is just thinking like, what are some of the other things, but to the, to the cutting piece, that's how we look at academics sometimes like We don't need liberal arts. Well, you kind of do in order to teach the general education. Well, we don't need a degree, so we we can cut out half of that just to support this because our bigger programs, you know, I worked at a community college where nursing was basically the supporter. Like, as long as we had nurses coming to school, we could do anything we wanted because they were bringing enough students to support the tuition revenue that we needed for everything else. And so, yeah, I mean, I don't i don't know how you figure out what to cut.
Speaker: but But i will I will agree with you being the most diverse in track and field, being one of those track and field people. So it's it's it's it would be hard to lose.
Speaker: And again, I also went to the University of Arkansas where meet national champions in track and field for several decades, I think. I was not running at Arkansas. i hope worked at Arkansas to be clear. Okay.
Speaker: right and So I technically don't have eligibility anymore then. now You know, we ran for two years. I can't go back somewhere and do my other time. Yeah. No. In the old system, you would.
Speaker: Maybe I should do the golf. But now the clock has started. now Now there's a clock that starts and you're done. Actually, that doesn't. I haven't passed the bill yet. So I'm still, I could, I could sign up. Do it now. Do it now.
Speaker: You look pretty fit. So go for it, buddy. Yeah. ah cameras are deceiving so we're we're in our last say nine to ten minutes here iser there are there other things about this that you think people should know or things you want you hope to see shift in this uh upcoming the landscape now that this bill is probably in this past senate but like as that gets wrestled with probably the next session of congress
Speaker: I just think I like certain things about the bill. I like the transfer portal, one free transfer, no questions asked. I like that. I like what was introduced last year with some, let's try to clamp down on the age a little bit. We don't need to be bringing in people that are in their mid to upper 20s as freshmen.
Speaker: But I don't know that it really solves any of the overall problem, which is just that this is a big money-making conglomerate. yeah And it doesn't, you know what i mean? It doesn't necessarily change the fact that college athletics has just become light. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, it's it think of the industry that's been created because of the NIL program and opening the door here, like all the people, all the people that are feeding off of the universities and the athletes and the opportunities. And, you know, everyone's like, this is my opportunity to make me. going to make millions and millions and millions of dollars taking advantage of these athletes and, you know, um and it's it is really sad when universities are are operating at you know nine ten twenty million dollar deficits in the athletic you know and on their operating costs because of athletics right like what i i don't know don't know what the right answer is but that's like doesn't seem like that should be happening right um and it seems like
Speaker: the the overall picture has been lost. Like, what are we doing here? And first and foremost, I mean, it's like supposed to be bringing education to to people and athletes. and And so anyway, yeah, I, yeah, I don't have the right answer, but hopefully continued legislation, I guess is the only opportunity to do it.
Speaker: Because otherwise people are just going to be looking at the money and just keep pushing and pushing and pushing because people are greedy. They want their part. Think to your earlier point about athletes, the younger athletes are now trying to get to this higher and higher and higher level yeah much, much earlier means we're not going to have amateur slash professional type athletes longer and longer.
Speaker: Yes. Right. You know, someone's not going be all do four different Olympics anymore because they'll be burnt out after the first Olympics. Right. Kevin, it's it's almost like you listened to my pod. This is one of my biggest things that I get on a soapbox about.
Speaker: You cannot train like a professional when you're a child. And I just think we are killing our talent. Just like you said, these long careers that we've been able to enjoy and get to know these athletes and cheer for them and watch through them through this arc of a career, it's going get shorter and shorter and shorter. And some people will argue, what does it matter if they still reach the heights? Who cares? But for me, it just is really sad.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, we're going to end on a real up note. Yeah. Sorry, man. No, no, but this is the reality. Like, you know, we we have to ah talk about reality um honestly. So I want to be mindful of your time. so Thank you both for being part of this today. it's ah This is a treat for me, selfishly, because um you know you guys know a lot about this. You've had great experiences. i've I watched a big chunk your careers when when we were younger. Now I'm old.
Speaker: Although Adam's a little older than me, but the good thing is kevin is Kevin's quite a bit older. older than all of you then. so yeah yeah Kevin has like children in their 30s. Oh, oof you are old, yeah.
Speaker: I had children young. Hey, I get it, man. What kind of Gen Xer were you, man? Like, true Gen Xer. You're like, ah, we got time. So thank you both so much. um These are really important perspectives that we don't probably, we probably won't talk about often on yeah our podcast here. So we really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks bob thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.
Speaker: Yeah. It was, it was fun to talk about it.
Speaker: Bye.
