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Episode 15: Crossover with On Board Games!
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Erik from On Board Games joins the pod in a crossover! We discuss games, and dive into psychology in board games.
Cheers Erik for joining!
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Transcript
Introduction and Friendship Origins
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Mate Let's Play. And today joining Shane and i is another mate, Eric from the Onboard Games Podcast. are you doing, Eric? I'm doing great. Thank you for making me an honorary mate.
00:00:27
Speaker
Anytime. You've been an honorary mate for a while, I guess. I met Eric on a cruise a couple of years ago and we i got on like a house on fire. So hence, if you have heard, i have been on a couple of his episodes of Onboard Games before, but the de very big big difference between Onboard Games and Mate Let's Play is that Onboard Games is a very well-researched podcast where he speaks to industry professionals and always has a very poignant topic about the hobby And Shane and I just talk about board games.
00:00:56
Speaker
So this is, we're entering the realm of the intelligence factor at this point. So looking forward to it. And we're certainly not prepared or anything like that. So ah welcome, Eric.
00:01:06
Speaker
It's good to have you on. I appreciate it. Thank you for that intro. I feel like I don't know that I believe everything you just said, but ah for for today's episode, it is true. So other episodes, maybe not so much, but excellent.
00:01:21
Speaker
So like I'm going to pick you first, Shane. Have you played anything interesting or noteworthy lately?
Game Experiences and Mechanics
00:01:27
Speaker
I played a stack of Flip 7 the other night. It was such fun. um Such good game. And there was only three of us, but we had a good laugh at it.
00:01:37
Speaker
There was lots of freezing and etc. Flip threes on everyone that was you know winning the game. I did play Pergola, or Pergola, as they say in the US. Right.
00:01:51
Speaker
and it was interesting cause, uh, we did, we were, and ah I think I will talk about it, Steve. So I don't know if you've played it yet, but, um, ah it is a review copy that we had from VR and, um, it was a fun game. We played with, uh, with Phil and Pastor Nick, um, and Nick's from Chicago, actually, Eric.
00:02:10
Speaker
Um, and, uh, he was calling it pergola. Um, and, uh, it was a bit of a fun, fun joke when were at play con, play con cause that's where I did learn how to play the game. And, um, For the whole three days we were down there, myself, Shane and Ingrid, we were calling it Pergola.
00:02:24
Speaker
um it's ah it is it is It was a good game. We had fun. um Is that a game for me? I'm going to say no because I think it's too easy. um it's It is an entry-level game.
00:02:38
Speaker
And for those that like Harmonies, Azul, those real pretty-looking games, this is the game for them. Yeah. The mechanics are good. um You have spades, you have forks, you have a handheld hoe and you um you are picking those out and those particular ah tools have actions that you can complete.
00:03:04
Speaker
And you're all about building a really nice garden in front of you. And, um you know, and but then also too, the garden has to have bees to help pollinate. You've got to have ladybirds and butterflies flying around.
00:03:16
Speaker
um so the two times I have played it, i think a good a good game is when you can see that the points are not blown out for every single person, if that makes sense.
00:03:31
Speaker
So the two times I have played this game, between first and fourth, there was eight points. And then on Thursday night, there was seven points between one and three.
00:03:43
Speaker
um And it is a game where you're not really concerned about what's gone what the other players are doing. You're more focused on, okay, how am I going to do my own strategy? So, you know, it's very much solo.
00:03:58
Speaker
Yes, sometimes someone might pick up an action that you want, but then you can just quickly go, okay, I'll just do this time. I'll do this this time because that action comes out again. um And you're collecting dragonflies throughout the game, which gets you points.
00:04:13
Speaker
But to collect the dragonflies, you need to complete um four of certain other actions throughout the game. So you might not need to have um ah four blossoms that have beads on it.
00:04:27
Speaker
Once you've got that, you go and get that dragonfly, which you use a frog to hop on a lily pad and get. So from an aesthetics look, very pretty. um and for those that like lots of colours on their board and they like to build something that looks really nice, definitely this is the game for them.
00:04:46
Speaker
It is very easy and it's too simple for me um and it's not not not heavy on the strategy. so yeah It's interesting hearing you talk about it because um just for Eric's sake, Shane's moniker is the Aussie solo gamer, but I've learned with Shane that he likes solo games.
00:05:07
Speaker
And then he likes games with people that aren't multiplayer solo. Right. So I'm not surprised when you said this is kind of like a multiplayer solo game that you weren't drawn to it.
00:05:18
Speaker
No, it was definitely. and And look, I asked Pastor Nick and Phil what they thought, and they both had the same thoughts isn' as me. and And Nick had actually played it over the weekend. I lent him the coffee copy because he had friends over, and they all played it together.
00:05:36
Speaker
And, um you know, one person liked it and that person won it twice the times they played it. And nis Nick was the same as me. He said, look, it's it's not for him either. It is too easy. But, you know, for anyone that's new to board gaming...
00:05:50
Speaker
um and that likes that real nice, pretty look on a board, like Sagrada, things like that. All those things that are nice and bright and colorful. Um, because when you walk past, if you'd walking past this game and it happened at play con, people are like, Oh wow, that looks really nice. but you What you, what you're doing there.
00:06:05
Speaker
And it does, the colors are nice and bright and vibrant. So aesthetically it looks very pleasing. Um, but it is, it's not, it's not a hard game at all. Not a deep game. Yeah. not The forks and the spades and, uh,
00:06:20
Speaker
in little holders, 3D holders that they go in. Yeah, and yeah. And the tokens, yeah. Yeah, it looks nice. It looks really nice. it's ah um And, you know, even when you actually are taking the action, you have 15 actions throughout the whole game.
00:06:33
Speaker
And so the the fork and spades are your actions. So when you put those in their holders, you know, me, myself, I'm a bit of an OCD, so I've got to have them all nicely lined up in their right holder. Whereas other other people are just chucking them in.
00:06:48
Speaker
um But even that part, you know you still need to make that look pretty. um it's a And the the tray itself lifts out. And there are really nice components in there. They didn't skimp on the components in this game.
00:07:01
Speaker
um so And that's why I think aesthetically its it looks very nice. so yeah But I do have ah two of my friends, so Ingrid and Shane, really enjoyed the game.
00:07:12
Speaker
ah So I will be donating this copy to them. So um thank you, they are Excellent. Steve, how about you? Well, I table a classic last night. and i was going to talk about another game, but I played a classic and it just it reminded me of what's... New games are great, but old games are great as well. And this game is has a little bit of a special place for me because it's the first game I ever bought from a board game store.
00:07:42
Speaker
When I got into the hobby, I lived in a remote location. There was no board game stores for hundreds of kilometres. And once when I was away for work, I walked into board game store in Cairns and bought Lords of Waterdeep.
00:07:55
Speaker
And last night we played it, just my wife and my son and myself. We played that with the Scoundrels and Skullport expansion because you've got to play it with the Scoundrels and Skullport expansion. And the game, I was like halfway through the game, I've just gone, man.
00:08:11
Speaker
Why did we not play this more often? This is such a good game. ah that the the The corruption with the Scoundrels of Skullport expansion just made the game, like it it was getting slammed. At one point, actually and out at all points, it was, so how this how that works is you can take actions that are much more powerful, but you've got to take corruption.
00:08:34
Speaker
And the more corruption you take, the more damaging they are to your final point score. And it was a negative it was negative nine at the end, which is the highest it can go. so ah And there was and there was one there was one space where you could get rid of corruption on the board.
00:08:50
Speaker
And there was also another space where you could take one of your corruption and put it on a space. So people were going to that space and then putting it on the space that allowed you to get rid of corruption, which just rendered it useless.
00:09:01
Speaker
So it was just this ongoing thing. And like my support my poor son, he had he had so much corruption. And we worked out that he he was going to lose 73 points 72 points, sorry, at the at the end of the game. So he's like on 120 and we're like, well you're actually on like 47.
00:09:17
Speaker
um But he started getting rid of it and and all of a sudden he had the same amount as me and I'm like, oh, no, and there's like and and he's on the spot that gets rid of corruption and I've got this ability that when I go to that spot, I can get rid of two corruption.
00:09:30
Speaker
So I'm like, oh, no, but he's on the spot and it's the last round, so I'm done here. And then he has a card that allows him to remove one of his workers from a space that he's on on the board. Oh, that's right. You take him. removes that one because he's thinking oh well i'll be to go there again and i'm like no you won't
00:09:48
Speaker
he was sorry it is still ah He was so... It was actually worse because it was his go when he removed it and then it was the last go of the game. So Helen has one worker left and she's looking on the board at what she can do to score the most victory points.
00:10:03
Speaker
and And both Raf and are indicating all of the other spaces on the board that she can go to get. like This one will get you two workers, that's two victory points. This one get you four coins, that's two victory points. You know, like...
00:10:16
Speaker
And none of us, neither of us mentioned this other spot because we both really wanted to go there. And then I had my turn and I went there Helen's like, why didn't you tell me about that space? Well, there's a reason.
00:10:29
Speaker
So, yes, I did fully Steve it up at that moment. um so but yes it was how How was I'm not good. He was very upset with me. ah So it was quite funny because he was he was loving it. He was absolutely having a blast. And he's played it a couple times of times before.
00:10:47
Speaker
But at that point when I took his spot and he got a little bit down, he's like, oh, I really don't like this expansion. I'm like, yes, you do. You've been loving it all game.
00:10:58
Speaker
it just this one moment. ah
00:11:02
Speaker
It's such a good game. Oh, it's great. Like you build the building, so the board's different every game, and and you've got so many cards, the intrigue. Helen had a great spot, a building that she built where you could play three intrigue cards, and whenever someone went there, she got to draw an intrigue. So she was just slamming us with intrigue all the time, which which are these. But what we did – which I haven't done before, but I'm glad I did, is I got rid of all of the mandatory quests that you get in that game. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I just... Like, no one likes them.
00:11:34
Speaker
Yes, you can give them to your opponent at and ah and it annoys them for a bit, but you're bound to get one back. And they're just... like the they just kind of crippled the game. So we removed all of the mandatory quests, which meant all the intrigue cards were really interesting. They were either like get this, get that, take this, take that kind of cards. So, um yeah, I thought that was that was actually really good to do that.
00:11:54
Speaker
But, so yeah, so she was slamming us with intrigue all the time. You'd be like you'd be ready to like at have all your cubes sitting on on your quest that you're just about to fu fulfill knowing that you've just got to go to the plinth and get one cleric or whatever.
00:12:06
Speaker
And she's like, oh I'm taking one of your orange cubes. like, no, no, no, two turns away. So, but as it turned out, we played the game. it goes for a while with the expansion and like we probably about two hours.
00:12:21
Speaker
And then we get to the end and we do the scores and Helen and I were tied. We tied on the score. like ah hundred and Not only did we tie, were tied on 192 and we both had the same amount of corruption. So we like we were rent back and then it turns out she won because she had, the winner is the person who has the most gold at the end of the game.
00:12:42
Speaker
She had two, I had one. So I made a point. I made a point for saying that although she got angry at us for not telling her about the spot that would have made her win the game by 20 points or so,
00:12:54
Speaker
Me sending her towards the spot that gave her some coins also won her the game. Still won the game. A W is a W. I think um think that's karma for what you did to Raph, to be honest with you.
00:13:09
Speaker
Yes, poor Raph was in a distant third. he he He took a lot of hit on the corruption at the end. And learned a valuable lesson. Not sure what that lesson is, but he did learn one. Do not trust Dad.
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, could be. but Well, look, I'm not going to point throw stones here, but he was the guy who put that building out that allowed people to put corruption on other spots. So, you know, karma came back to him too.
00:13:38
Speaker
It is such a game. You're right, Steve, because I own it. I own both. And it is my wife's favourite game, but we never play it. So I'm going to play it this weekend. yeah I've got some time this weekend. It's going to be nice and wet here in Brisbane, so.
00:13:54
Speaker
I think that's coming out. Awesome. Yeah, absolutely classic. And it's it's such an easy, like, I forgot how easy it is to teach. It's like the simplest worker placement game ever.
00:14:04
Speaker
Like, you go here, you get these things. The end. Like, you need these things to do those things. Sometimes the hardest part about the teach is just getting people over the theme. i was like, don't worry about the theme. If you don't like the fantasy, don't worry about it.
00:14:17
Speaker
If you like it, don't about it. You'll be calling them white cubes in about 30 seconds. so Exactly. The theme means nothing. It's funny, we've got a friend who's a big D&D guy and he loves thematic games and Hela's like, you should really teach this to Manuel.
00:14:33
Speaker
And I'm like, I don't think he'll like it because the theme is so detached that right I don't think he he can get immersed. Like he would like he'd he'd be thinking it's this great storyline game and you're building characters and it's not.
00:14:47
Speaker
It's just getting kids to fulfill it's contracts. I've played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah, I've played a lot of D&D and I've never had to gather four fighters, three wizards, two thieves and and a cleric to go do something.
00:15:05
Speaker
Awesome. But yeah, that is a great game. I do love it. What about yourself, Eric? We had a game night the other night and I brought one of my all-time favorite games as well, Imperial, to the table.
00:15:16
Speaker
And none of them had played it before. A bunch of them had wanted to. It's like, oh, this will be great. So I explained the rules to them. So it's a... ah Matt Gertz, Rondell game kind of set in the pre-World War I era.
Psychology in Board Games
00:15:29
Speaker
and And I kind of lay it all out to them and and off we go and we're having fun and we're playing. And at some point, Italy and I'm sorry, France and UK are kind of engaged in some war.
00:15:42
Speaker
And I'm just sitting there thinking, ah these guys are just wasting so many resources because they just want to fight. you I was like, oh I'm so smart. I'm going to be you know making all the money down below and blah, blah, blah. And ah fast forward to the end of the game, and I've realized that I was so focused on making my countries work well that I didn't invest enough in other countries. And I came in fourth out of no fifth out of five. I came in dead last.
00:16:07
Speaker
And I was like, well, there's a little bit hubris there. I think I hoisted myself on my own batard at that one.
00:16:15
Speaker
So what's it it was Imperial or Imperial? Yeah. So. ah basically, it's you know pre-World War I Europe, and it's a lot like diplomacy. There's a bunch of different countries, and everyone sort of invests in the countries, and whoever invests the most controls the country.
00:16:33
Speaker
But if someone else buys a bigger investment, then they can take it from you. So the idea is you try to pump as much money into the country as possible so that you can then drain it back out into your own personal accounts and things. It's very 18xx in that sort of way.
00:16:50
Speaker
ah Combat is is very straightforward. You know, if you have two ships meet, you each keep taking out ships until there's only one side left in the fight. So it's very deterministic. There's no kind of things like that.
00:17:02
Speaker
And really what your country is trying to do is expand its influence. So it's trying to take over as many territories as possible because that gives it a broader taxation base essentially. And so thats that's kind of the crux of the game.
00:17:17
Speaker
I've never heard of this game and I am very intrigued now, so I'll be looking this up. I can see Steve's eyes. shoulders it Yeah, yeah, City of the Big Shoulders, as soon as you spoke about it, that's what I was thinking. It's like, i don't know if you've ever played City of the Big Shoulders, but it's not not a war not ah um like an area control game as such, but you're investing in businesses in Chicago in the and i didn nine in hundreds and it's a similar thing. Like the more you put in, the more value that gets you back at the end of the game as you're explaining it. That's what i was thinking.
00:17:50
Speaker
So, yeah. a So there's Imperial and there's Imperial 2030 and they're functionally the exact same game. The difference is 2030 takes place on a modern board and he has the entire world and you can kind of cross over.
00:18:03
Speaker
um when Imperial is just that. I always think of Imperial as kind of diplomacy light because it's the same theme. There's a lot of maneuvering and and whatnot, but it takes only a couple hours to play.
00:18:13
Speaker
And with the rondelle, it's really nice because you usually only focus on a few, you know, there's only like five different actions you can take and you move your rondelle a few different actions. So you don't have to worry about everything that you can do. You just worry about the things that you can do immediately if you haven't ever played rondelle game before. But I really like them.
00:18:32
Speaker
ah Matt Gertz is known for for doing all kinds of Rondell games. but that sounds This sounds really interesting. Yeah, it's one of those things where you got to make sure you do a little bit of everything.
00:18:44
Speaker
And if you focus too much on one thing, someone else is going to sort of take off with it. And it's usually about halfway through the game where start to see it all kind of sink together. And in my case, it was all sinking downhill because like I had ah really strong Italy. I had a really strong Austria going and that was great. But everyone else had a bunch of investments in a bunch of different countries and that ended up giving them the game. So humbling, but entirely fun.
00:19:14
Speaker
And obviously you wouldn't need the right group to play that. Yeah, probably. i mean It sounds like they'd be able to take that in it. Yeah. ah But the fun part is you know like dumping a country that you don't want to play anymore. you know It's like if someone else sort of picks it up from you and you're like, fine, you do it.
00:19:32
Speaker
Or if if you're like, UK was really causing a bit of a problem for us because they were going around doing all kinds of war stuff. So I was like, on my turn, I'm just going to buy up controlling interest of it and that'll end that war real quick because I'll control it and you know italy or whatever so yeah there's there's a little bit of that but it's not it's not uh it's not a direct take that i guess where you're you're trying to really hose each other down you're just trying to be better than others i guess i don't know but yeah i really like it it's on the list it's gonna be researched by myself as soon as this podcast is over excellent
00:20:09
Speaker
I do think the regular Imperial is pretty out of print, but I think 2030 is still in print. And functionally, they play the same. So i um prefer I prefer the original because that's what I have in my shelf.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. I just did a bit of board game geek searching while you were talking, and I've got to admit, it's it's it's not a looker. but to No. Maybe that's because it's 2006. That's it's a fair while ago. I going to say, this is an old game. and In fact, in fact it's ah when I pulled it out, they're like, oh, it's one of the old Rio Grande games. sos They had like larger, shallower boxes for a short period of time. Yeah.
00:20:47
Speaker
The guys I played with are like, ah, this is an old one. And and it's always funny to see how my game storage techniques evolved over time. Like this one is just pure baggies, nothing else.
00:20:58
Speaker
You know, there's no insert. There's no, you know, anything like that. It's just straight baggies. Granted, there's not a lot of ah bits in it anyway, but yeah. Cool. All righty. Well, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to dive into the mind.
00:21:20
Speaker
And we're back. I'm still Eric. They're still Shane and Steven. They're still living in the future down under. So Steven approached me and yeah I had thrown out a couple of topics to discuss. And he's like, ah what about psychology and board games? And I thought,
00:21:34
Speaker
huh Why haven't I ever doved into that, ah given that I have a degree in educational psychology? So i did a bit of research and wanted to kind of talk about that with you guys. and And we'll talk about it from a scientific viewpoint, but we'll also talk about it just how, in general, how it makes us think and how it makes us feel.
00:21:55
Speaker
You know, Shane, you mentioned earlier about, you know, people got to be able to take that in Imperial. And i mean that is a... with certain games you definitely have to be able to make sure people understand that hey they're going to direct conflict and and can you handle that and you know that is that is kind of an issue as well so before we dive or even alternatively you know when you uh take a space that your son just vacated yes Speaking of therapy, family counseling.
00:22:28
Speaker
Yeah, righto.
00:22:33
Speaker
You know, just as an aside that reminds me, I had ah pulled out the Grand Austrian Hotel, which I hadn't played in years and years. And so I pulled it out and was like, hey, let's play this with my family.
00:22:43
Speaker
So the three of us are playing my wife and son. And about halfway through, i realized I got a rule wrong and it really crippled my wife and son, but it didn't hurt me all that bad.
00:22:54
Speaker
And so I explained what the wrong rule was. We moved forward from that point. But man, my son has not let that go the whole time. I mean, it's been three weeks since we played it. And he's like, I'm never playing that again because you cheat and that kind of stuff.
00:23:08
Speaker
I don't think it really had that big an effect on Raph. I mean, I did ask him if he wanted to play again today and he wouldn't hit under the stairs and he hasn't come out since. But I don't know that's the one. He's sitting there rocking in the corner. The meeples, the meeples, the meeples.
00:23:26
Speaker
So what are your thoughts briefly just when when the idea of psychology and board games you know mix? What is it that kind of pops in your head initially? I'll go. okay oh um Okay. So for me, it's all about, um i always think of psychology and board gaming as bringing people together and um getting people talking, getting people ah connecting.
00:23:50
Speaker
And um for me, board games have always been able to help do that and bringing a diverse a diverse community together too. So you know diversity is massive in the board game industry and I think board games enable people to connect on so many different levels.
00:24:08
Speaker
and And even then, you know I use board games to relax. um you know I've got a busy career and for me, I got into the hobby to take my mind away from work and and it did, it did. and But then what I've done since then is use that ah relief that I get to then bring others into it.
00:24:34
Speaker
So for me, psychology in ballgaming is more about ah that community connection versus, you know, also too, there you know there is some psychology in ballgames.
00:24:46
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Especially if you get into like social deduction games. Yeah. Yeah, correct. and And then also too, yeah you know, we we touched on it quickly, but, you know, there's board games that you need to have the right people play with you because, you know, you can't have someone blow up because, um you know, Steve went and put a corruption, took all the corruption space, right? You can't have someone absolutely blow up, which has happened.
00:25:14
Speaker
you know the And so you eat you instantly know, like okay, well, that ballgame is not for this person. I cannot bring that ballgame out or anything that's like that ballgame out with that person as we move forward.
00:25:25
Speaker
So... Yeah. Those are some great points. It's funny. I can remember growing in college, Talisman was huge. Our group would play it all the time. And it actually broke up the friendship for a few years because yeah of just the – there were other things but brewing as well, but Talisman was the tipping point at one point.
00:25:47
Speaker
Well, hands are to Tonica. It's got that one move that everyone does to go to that one space so that um they're starting to line themselves up. I played that once with two people that that, you know, you do who goes first. This person who went first. He went straight there. The other person lost it.
00:26:06
Speaker
He said, you've ruined the whole game already. I'm like, it's the first move. Wow. Yeah. Absolutely lost it. And, you know, calling this person names and everything, was like, oh, my God, you know, because he wanted to go there.
00:26:20
Speaker
It was shocking. Great, right? Yeah, yeah. There was a phenomena with ah Puerto Rico when it was, when it was really hot, where we called them Puerto Rico poopoo heads, because, you know, there is a so certain way you're supposed to play Puerto Rico. Like there's, if someone picks one thing, the next thing is what you should pick. You know, if they pick merchant, you pick whatever.
00:26:39
Speaker
And if you don't do that, it's like, it's, it, could potentially throw off their strategy. And there were people, yeah, that would get mad at it. It's kind of like, you know, being at the blackjack table and hitting when you shouldn't, because that card that you got in the next player couldn't, you know, and it's, it, you know, for me, I'm just like, Hey, relax.
00:26:57
Speaker
It's just a game. Right. But yeah, the, the temperament and whatnot is something you definitely need to pay attention to. ye It reminds me, yeah I grew up playing 500 in my family, but our family was a family of five and 500 is a four-player game. So two teams of two.
00:27:14
Speaker
So I only ever played when someone wasn't there. i was the I was the substitute. And there's all these rules about, so 500 is a trick-taking game and you've got to, you between the two of your teammates, you've got to decide how many tricks you're going to win.
00:27:28
Speaker
And if you don't win the tricks that you went for, you lose negative, you get negative points. and So the amount of tricks you settle on is really important. And I didn't know, but the unwritten rule was if you had an ace of any suit, you bid six of whatever suit that is.
00:27:48
Speaker
And because I was a substitute and I didn't know that, I'd often just go in there and be like, oh, yeah, six clubs. And then my my teammate would hear me say that and go, oh, he's he's got the ace. So I'll be the eight clubs because I've got the the two jacks and the joker or something.
00:28:01
Speaker
And then we'd get to the game and she'd throw a card. I say she because this I remember this happening with my sister. She'd throw a card out and um and then I wouldn't win the trick. And she's like, but you have the ace. I'm like,
00:28:12
Speaker
I'm not going to, don't have the ace. She's like, but you bet, like, it got really angry at me because I didn't follow the the unwritten rule and I bid six, but I didn't have the ace. So, yeah, I guess that's the same kind of thing.
00:28:25
Speaker
or Hanabi, if people have played Hanabi a lot and they get sort of, i don't know if you're familiar with Hanabi, but you, you have a hand of cards, but you don't know what the the cards are. Everybody else knows what you have. And so you're trying to communicate within the rules of what you have. And yeah, if they have built up stuff is like, well, if I say this, this means this kind of thing and you don't know it, you're an outsider to that.
00:28:47
Speaker
ah Yeah. you know It'll, it'll, ruin quote unquote, ruin the game for people. And, uh, which is kind of funny, which was the actual opposite of where I was originally going based on what Shane was saying, but it's an interesting phenomena as well, because, uh, you know, you were talking about creating connections and we're obviously talking about breaking connections, but yeah, yeah, correct. Correct. Yeah.
00:29:10
Speaker
But yeah it is funny. I will mention, another game that, oh, a couple of games actually that I really liked until I played with a person that showed me what the game could do that I had not really noticed before.
00:29:25
Speaker
And I've never played those games since. So the big one for me is photosynthesis. So I used to have photosynthesis. I used to like playing it. It was a fun game where you try and get your trees light.
00:29:37
Speaker
And then I played against a guy who just blocked everybody else. So everyone was having an awful time except him. And I haven't been able to go back to that game since because I didn't realize it could be played that way.
00:29:50
Speaker
And now that I know it can be played that way, i don't ever want to experience that again. So yeah there's there's a couple of other examples, and it sounds terrible, but the same but the same person taught us Inish and did something kind of similar in that game to the point where I call Inish Binnish because that's where it belongs.
00:30:10
Speaker
So but it's probably a great game, but I'll never give it another go because when you have, for me, when I play against someone who is doing that from turn one, I don't find those games enjoyable.
00:30:22
Speaker
So I don't want to go back and chance that that might happen again. So there's a difference between ah bit of take that and a little bit of, you know, pushing people out of the way of things.
00:30:33
Speaker
There's a difference between that and a game, which is fine, and someone can railroad this game to their own benefit to to the cost of everybody else at the table. And i don't I don't like that in games. So, yeah, that's...
00:30:47
Speaker
That's probably one area that's um like, you know, you've got in your notes here choices that you avoid for non-game reasons. That idea that my fun can be sucked out by no fault of my own, I guess.
00:30:59
Speaker
Yeah. You've heard it, Steve. I think you've heard the Broom Service story, game that we played at BrizCon. And we were playing with that four – there was four of us playing.
00:31:11
Speaker
And Broom Service is that which game? And you got the – Yeah. It's a great – how it could be a negative experience, but this will be interesting. yeah the way The way I played it was absolutely mean.
00:31:22
Speaker
And it is a mean game. So I don't know if you've played broom service, but it is a mean game. And um so there was me, there was Dave, I think it was yeah Grant was there, and Dave, Troy, myself, and self um we had a ring-in, right?
00:31:37
Speaker
So Dave, Troy, and myself, we can play mean and we're we're okay. I know their personalities. But the ring-in that we had, and we didn't know who this person was. But... Every time it got to my go, ah had to.
00:31:52
Speaker
ah completely stuffed up his turn. oh Every time it got around to me. And it got to a joke now. It's like Dave and Troy were laughing. This guy wasn't. It was the only time I ever thought I was going to get punched in a board game.
00:32:06
Speaker
Far out. so He was losing it. He was losing it at me And let me guess, you've got this card. Yeah, I do. And I play a straight down. As a matter of fact. And ah yeah, he he at one point he stood up and he was getting and I went, okay, maybe I need to pull back on my um take that on this guy ah because he's getting quite upset now.
00:32:28
Speaker
and ah Because I never knew him. um Mind you, I didn't. I kept going. sorry ah But, yeah, it just – it made me think, though, if I've got a ring in, maybe I know don't play like that, even though, you know, Dave and Troy, i knew I could and they were doing it to me.
00:32:45
Speaker
But, yeah, broom service, you know, if you haven't played it before, it is a mean game. Well, it is. for money out every Every decision is on you, though. Like, you choose to go – what is it? Weak – Yeah, weak.
00:33:00
Speaker
yeah Weak confident or something. Like, that's your choice. So if you just go the weak, you're guaranteed to get the action. So that, to me, that's that's somewhat his choice as well. if he's If he's always choosing to go brave, it's brave. if he's always choosing to go brave and then he's getting undercut, well, that's the game. Like, that's a little bit different, see, yeah I think anyway.
00:33:22
Speaker
Yeah. So I don't think you're totally at fault there, Shane.
00:33:26
Speaker
Well, things that's interesting is that games of kind of allow you, they encourage that you can kind of explore and what happens if I do this with, you know, few ramification few significant ramifications like you could do in the real world.
00:33:40
Speaker
ah But it's funny that that's a positive. We can know what happens if I try this, what happens if I try that, but it can apparently also be a negative as well. like like Every single thing this person did just because, and and that actually is an issue with some board game designs where if I'm losing, what is it? And I know I can't win. What is it that I do next?
00:34:02
Speaker
Do I just see how well I can do or do I try and bring other people down with me? And that's, That is ah an interesting aspect in some games as well, especially especially games that are semi-cooperative, right? If I'm helping everyone win, but I don't have the threshold to win myself, do I try and bring everybody down because if I'm losing, they're going to lose too? Or do you just celebrate their winning while you lose? It's an interesting question, I think.
00:34:29
Speaker
I agree. And I think that also comes down to if you're going to decide to make everyone lose, it's the group you're playing with. Yeah, oh yeah. yeah And if you want to play with them again, depending on how they'll take it, right? Correct. yeah yeah So you mentioned, Steve, ah game choice that you avoid for non-game reasons. you You talked about an entire game you avoid for non-game reasons. But ah this is something i always find fascinating, to where there's not a reason...
00:34:59
Speaker
logically or or tactically why you would avoid doing something in a game, but you just don't want to do it. my My classic example is when I play the Firefly board game, they have immoral jobs and non-immoral jobs.
00:35:11
Speaker
And most of the time, I try to avoid doing immoral jobs because i don't like the what they're doing. you know yeah They're you know trafficking in drugs or something like that. I don't know i don't like that.
00:35:24
Speaker
But it's not... I mean, it's not... the gameplay in and of itself doesn't have you do anything it's just there's a slightly additional risk with a bigger payoff essentially is what the game mechanic is but because of the game is so story driven thematically i tend to avoid some of those jobs or likewise games have lots of options and one of those options you're kind of like you know i don't truly get it so i'm just going to kind of ignore it and i'm going to focus on these other options you know
00:35:51
Speaker
One game that I played a lot is Scythe. And Scythe, you have the discovery cards. You get three options to choose from. The first option is always, it's like a game, two food and a popularity or something.
00:36:04
Speaker
The second option is pay $2 to get this stronger action. And the third option is lose popularity to do this action. And that action is harsh. Like, and it got, um i don't know I don't know if you allow swearing on your podcast, Eric. So I'll just say we called it the D move.
00:36:21
Speaker
um to be standing for something else, which is if you chose that action, everyone on the table was just like, what are you doing? No one does the d move. and it It became like this this meta of the game that you avoid that third action because it is, and it's not it's not necessarily affecting anybody else, but the text on the card is like, um you know, help the lady sow her fields and earn two food into popularity.
00:36:46
Speaker
Hire a worker to get four foods into popularity. Burn down the shed and take all of her food. You know, it's they're just, they're bad moral decisions. it's And you're like, I want to be that guy. right
00:36:59
Speaker
Yeah. I always find it funny when a game will make me not choose something for a non game reason. ah This war of mine, it's one of my favorite games, but the amount of immoral decisions you need to do in that game.
00:37:15
Speaker
um And I don't like, you know, I'm walking into a house and, There's an old lady and an old man and there's plenty of food in the fridge. you know Do you take all their food? And I don't think you have to kill them, but you just you just just rob them and steal them of all their food.
00:37:32
Speaker
I don't. I don't. I just leave the house, say goodbye, bye-bye. Or you've got a young child. You've got a young child that walks up to that, wants to get into their heart into your home. Do you just kick them out and say, no, see you later, you're not not allowed in or let this young child in? Yeah, we let the young child in. That young child then steals all of our goods or that young child...
00:37:51
Speaker
You know, because you do, you feel like, yeah, come in, come in, little child, and and it comes in because you're trying to protect the person, you know, this child from um the war that's going on around and ends up stealing your food or gives everyone some kind of illness and virus that then uses up all your medicine. and and and So needless to say, I've never won this war of mine still to this day. So I need to actually maybe go immoral for one of the games.
00:38:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. There's another great game called The Cost, which is really hard to find, but I have managed to play the game. And it's all about blue asbestos mining.
00:38:29
Speaker
So you're a company who is mining asbestos and selling it. And obviously asbestos has, in real life terms, can kill you because of the, I can't remember what it's called, but they the...
00:38:42
Speaker
threads or whatever that get in your lungs yeah the talons that get in your lungs yeah yeah yeah and um anyway so you're playing this game and you literally have workers dying and if you if if the work too many workers die then a country won't let you mine in that country anymore you have to go to another country and start mining there and and you kind of have to you kind of have to have some of your workers die if you want to win the game and then like and When you get to the end of the game and you're reading through like the victory points and how to determine who wins, it said the winner of the game is the person with the most victory points, but at what cost?
00:39:15
Speaker
And it's kind of like, you just sort of sit back and go, yeah, I don't know if I really want to win this game. Like it's just all all these workers for, for the sake of my own business's profit. It's, it's kind of, kind of dark.
00:39:27
Speaker
Yeah. It makes you want to go play a pergola and just kind of do some nice little. good yeah Yeah, for sure. Yeah. ah That's good. You're exactly right. it's ah Yeah. the You're right. like There's so many so many games and you look into them. that Oh, The Bloody Inn.
00:39:44
Speaker
I don't know if you've all played The Bloody Inn. Yeah, Great game. Awesome game. But you're literally murdering people and then burying them in in in in a paddock. And you're getting you're getting money.
00:39:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah hits It's such a ah light, fun game. but it's dark. It's a dark game to I'm trying think of ways to lighten this up. ah Yeah. Let's talk about the good things in games. nothing um Well, how about the satisfaction that you feel when your, your game engine starts to actually work, you know, whether it's Agricola or, a wingspan or any, ah any engine building game, but you know, that three quarters of the way through the game where you're like, I take the action and then I take six other actions because all of this stuff is doing exactly what I needed it to
Game Strategies and Morality
00:40:31
Speaker
do. And,
00:40:32
Speaker
And you're like, ah, I was struggling so hard. And that that that pride and excitement and satisfaction that you feel internally because of of all that hard work is paying off.
00:40:43
Speaker
ah is is is always, always satisfying. And I always find it funny because, you know, Agricola, you want that one more turn because you finally have everything built to the point where you can support your family and the game ends. You're like, no.
00:40:55
Speaker
And I think that's the crux of the game is it needs to end then. But you just really want one more turn just to have the satisfaction of all of your stuff filled out. same Same deal in viticulture. It's like everyone's trying to do the same thing, and yeah it's just an efficiency battle. Who can do it better?
00:41:09
Speaker
And you always get to a point where you're like, yes, all right, I've got a good income here. I've got all the buildings I need built. ah yeah And then someone's like, oh, got the 25 points. You're like, my engine, it's ready to go.
00:41:23
Speaker
yeah Even if you do get it to go, you go for one turn, and then the game ends. That's it. sits if its You don't get to run it. my experience with viticulture is I get this incredible engine going. I can make the best white wine there is.
00:41:35
Speaker
And none of my customers want white wine. You're quickly trying to convert it to Rose. yeah and i I haven't decided about that game. I don't like it.
00:41:48
Speaker
And I don't know if it's, and I don't think it's broken. I think it's more me, but yeah, I keep, trying to tread down the wrong path no matter what even if i change paths the next game it's still oh we all want white wine now you're like oh you're killing me yeah i had it recently um in luthier which is a new game that's come out and um we played this we we learned it at the play con at a convention and um I mentioned on the previous podcast that it was really well taught by ah by this guy that was teaching the game.
00:42:22
Speaker
But it was a long game. It took us seven hours, but we were learning as we were going. um But it was my last go. but It was the last round. And I'd completely mapped out, i okay, I'm going to go here, here, here, here. here here here If this person doesn't pick up this card, I'm on to the next bit.
00:42:45
Speaker
if this person doesn't pick up that card, I'm on to the next bit. um So I just needed two moves not to happen. And then if I, by the end of that round, if those two cards were still there, I would be able to take an instrument off the table into the in with my um conductor, which was the right instrument for him, do the repair on that instrument, which was one of the card conditions, take it over, actually do a performance, which was another one of those conditions of that card.
00:43:15
Speaker
And by the round, I would have completed that whole performance and scored maximum points I could, but I needed the person not to take those two cards. So I'm completely looking at that person going, do not take that card. Do not take that card.
00:43:29
Speaker
And, and they didn't. So i was like, great. going the next one. The feeling I got by taking it all the way through, i was like, yes, that was brilliant. It was excellent.
00:43:40
Speaker
And, uh, So similar to you know when you play Hadrian's Wall. And and whilst it's not deck whilst it's not deck building, it's such it's combo-tastic. You're just going, okay, I'm gonna get going to get one of those black meeples there.
00:43:55
Speaker
That's going to trigger that. That's going to trigger that. That's going to trigger that. That's going to trigger that. And you're just going, yes, yes, yes, which is going to give me more meeples here and which is going to trigger me for the next round as I go again. It's just... fantastic when you get those moves going yeah it's just satisfying satisfying i agree yeah i agree so then there's sort of the other side of the coin where uh there are moves that you have you take because they're advantageous to you but there's also negative penalties that come with them that you're going to have to deal with and it seemed like for a little while martin wallace was was loved this kind of mechanic because i always call them the black cubes because they always seem to be black cubes so like automobile or london
00:44:33
Speaker
or whatnot. So, you know, as you're moving forward, you're also picking up this, this detritus or whatever that you're going to have to deal with at some point. But, and so,
00:44:44
Speaker
yeah I find it, I always found it interesting that it was so frustrating to me. It's like, I know I need to do these actions and I know these cubes are going to come with, and then I'm just going to have to waste a whole turn dealing with these cubes.
00:44:55
Speaker
And it's all part of the game. Everyone's doing it. Yeah. um But I've always been fascinated by the feelings that it invokes as I'm dealing with this, these kinds of setbacks, you know, it's one thing when somebody takes the card that you need or the space that you need, and then you've got to pivot.
00:45:09
Speaker
But it's another where you're sort of doing it to yourself, knowing you're going to have to deal with this stuff at some point in the future. Yeah, for me, that's Undaunted with the Fog of War. it' so You have to get Fogs of War because you've got to you've got to scout the area. And every time you scout a new space, you've got to yeah the Fog of War hits you. you've got to take a Fog of War card.
00:45:30
Speaker
And they are just nothing cards. And in in Undaunted, you draw four cards. So it's not uncommon to have almost a whole hand of Fogs of War and they're useless cards. They don't do anything. Just like, oh, I'm having my Fog of War turn. And it's just like, it's always so disappointing. But it's like, no, the reason you have those cards is because you have been doing things that are very important to the game.
00:45:52
Speaker
Like there there's they're a punishment for doing something like, yeah not a punishment, but... Yeah, like you wouldn't have gotten those cards in your hand had you not been exploring out into the to the unknown where you yeah you probably shouldn't have been kind of thing. So it's a it's part of the game. You know it's coming, but when you get that hand, you're like, oh I'm just so unlucky. I've got four. You know, it's like, well, yeah you can also spin that and say, well, now they're all gone.
00:46:18
Speaker
Your next hand is going to be awesome because you're going to have no fogs of war in it. So, yeah. and it is just That is interesting thing. And to your point with Martin Wallace games, you know you've got the loans in Age of Steam. You've got loans yeah loans even in Unk Morpok Discworld where you yeah you' you're taking extra money, but you've got to get rid of that.
00:46:37
Speaker
so And Brass as well. so but Brass though sometimes this is an interesting one because mean you have to take the loans, right? And the penalty for taking the loans is it's a pain, but it's not a huge pain.
00:46:52
Speaker
As opposed to, you know, it's not something that's going to be lording over you. It's just going to slow you down a little bit. And I find, I find that interesting because the yeah, the difference between like Ankh-Morpork and brass on the loans, both designed by Martin Wallace, completely different.
00:47:06
Speaker
different Like I will, I will avoid loans as much as I can in Ankh-Morpork. Yeah. you may take And obviously you have to take them in the other. And so that's interesting.
00:47:17
Speaker
Yeah. And I guess on the flip side with Brass is that it's one of those games where there's you kind of encouraging positive interaction with the with the buildings that you build and resources that you create that other people can use.
00:47:32
Speaker
And you could it's that interesting juxtaposition where you sometimes you put out those cubes knowing that someone else is going to use them and you get an easy flip. Although there's other times where you like you build a brewery and you're like, I don't want anyone to touch my beer.
00:47:46
Speaker
And then when it comes to your turn, your beer is gone and you're like, damn it, I've built that building specifically to have my beer. So it's like, even though it's a good thing for you, because your tile flips is also like, you also want to kind of, you hide your your goods. So, but um like, it's, it's kind of got both, right. It's got that negative interaction where, know, if you want, if you want to get things early and I think that's probably in brass where the, where the loans hurt you the most is early.
00:48:09
Speaker
yeah But that's when they punish you the least, which is a good mix. Yeah, it's good to do. Yeah. Yeah, but then you've also got that positive interaction on the boy where you're like, oh, you want some iron? Well, look at my iron works here. Go for God. Take as many as you need. yeah Brass is interesting. I was talking with ah and another friend. friend of ours that plays it and she hates the fact that all the work that happened in the first stage in the canal era effectively gets wiped out you know she's focused on building these networks and now it's all wiped out so and and i totally see it and i'm just kind of like but yeah but then you get to do the trains and you'd also freeze things up but yeah i mean you're like oh i've done this and the game's only half over and all my work you know is gone and that's a that's a funny kind of uh
00:48:53
Speaker
I guess, phenomena as well. Well, that almost links back to the previous one, the previous deck building piece that we were talking about. You know, you you're building, you just want that one more round to go and so that you can get that engine going. So in this one, no, sorry, it's wiped out for the next the rest of the game. Yeah.
00:49:08
Speaker
yeah And you always feel super smart when you've got a level two building out and you're like, well, I don't have to move mine. In Architects as well, as we've got a similar mechanic where, Now, Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you go to a certain space, you'll lose, is it two virtue?
00:49:24
Speaker
you where Yeah. You're increasing your virtue getting money from the man. Yeah, you're getting money tax man. But then you're dropping back in the virtue. And um so then you've got to to try and rebuild that up to get more points, you know, throughout the game.
00:49:35
Speaker
I find that an interesting mechanic, that one. So it's similar. I think that's like, that's a different thing as well. Like from a philosophy side of of things, like I used to play that game with um architects of the West kingdom with one player in particular who always went and built on that with the church. And so he was always really virtuous. He was always at the top of the virtue, virtue track. And, and,
00:49:59
Speaker
I just believed that he must have been really religious because he made it such an important thing for him to go up this track. And I brought it up with him once. I'm like, oh, so like do you go to church? And he's like, no.
00:50:11
Speaker
Why would you think that? I'm like, well, because every time we play Architects, you smash in the church. And he was like, he was mortified that he didn't even realise he was doing that. And and then like the next time I played with him, he was right. He was doing all the black market stuff.
00:50:30
Speaker
So life doesn't necessarily imitate art.
00:50:35
Speaker
So we would be ah remiss to talk about psychology if we didn't discuss social deduction games, because in it's almost purely psychological. Some of it is taking you know bets, essentially, or or risks. But um you know you're looking at your one-night ultimate werewolves, your blood on the clock towers, your werewolves, even Battlestar Galactica and in those types of games where there's a hidden traitor or whatnot, and you're trying to suss them out.
00:51:00
Speaker
And you have limited information. and you're trying to make deductive reasoning on it, but you, at the end of the day, you've got to determine who you're going to trust and who you're not going to trust. And how are you going to do that?
00:51:12
Speaker
And how are you going to pick? And, uh, Or do you just throw caution to the wind and just pick someone and glom on and and play the odds or something like that? um And that's what I find most fun about social deduction games is is that kind of a mixture.
00:51:27
Speaker
But I also know people that just hate them because there's no right choices to make. You know what i mean? I'm going to be able to say hand on heart, I cannot contribute to this topic because I've never played a social deduction game.
00:51:41
Speaker
Really? Never been interested in playing it. So I'm going to just listen to you two. I actually think you'd be really good at it, Shane. Like, like i think you'd be fairly good at trying to ring people and deduce what their character is or try and maybe get information of someone.
00:52:01
Speaker
um that you probably shouldn't have. yeah I think you'd make a good villain you know in a such sort of action game. Yeah, yeah. Look, I agree with you. So we were playing the One Night Ultimate Werewolf. There's a group of us. And so we'd played like three or four games. and And I'm usually pretty good at it, especially with this this group of guys. And so...
00:52:19
Speaker
we're playing along in this fourth or fifth game and a friend of mine i know he's a werewolf i figured it out because of whatever i had and then he was not defending himself at all and so i convinced everybody he's the werewolf sure enough we vote him out he flips it over he's not the werewolf because what he i didn't know but he knew is that he swapped roles with me And so he's just sitting there playing along like he's a werewolf.
00:52:44
Speaker
And I was so impressed with just how beautifully I was manipulated and played on that. it was just it was just ah ah game I'll never forget.
00:52:54
Speaker
And I just thought that was just hilarious how he could ah we could do that. I think I played a lot of werewolf, like proper werewolf with ah back when the pandemic was on, Tom Vassel was running werewolf fire zoo.
00:53:08
Speaker
And I played a lot during that period and ah the meta like of the game. So when you play with the same group over and over, you get this kind of unwritten information about everybody. And I remember once I was a villain, I was, I was a werewolf and,
00:53:25
Speaker
playing through the game and we actually won and we get to the end and tom always gives his little you bit about what you what we missed and what we should have looked at and everything and he's just gone he's just gone and steve he hardly talked this game he never shuts up you should have known that it's clearly hiding something i'm like righto so yeah i'll put that in the memory bank for next time and i'm a werewolf i need to do more talking ah But yeah i and there's so many times when my family get together, we often play Blood on the Clock Tower. And there's a little bit of that where um I feel sorry for him because he's so into the game. But it's not uncommon for my nephew, Michael, to be killed early because the game goes quicker when he's dead.
00:54:10
Speaker
I mean, obviously in the cocktail you can still talk during – like if you're dead, you're still in the game. But, yeah yeah yeah, I think the enthusiasm drops a little bit when when you've been when you've been killed. So he – because he he's the sort of person who will want to go in and talk to everyone in their little private conversations.
00:54:27
Speaker
So the rounds take a while to get through when Nick's in the game. But if you kill him early, it eases it up for the rest of the game. And there's also that that there's that person in your group that is always the demon or the werewolf or whatever, right? They aren't really, but they're enough of it to where it sort of becomes a meme within your group, as it were.
00:54:48
Speaker
And that one's always hilarious because when, and you know, Shannon is the Cylon or whatever, you're you're like, see, I told you, right? You know sort of. Yeah. sort of But I always find.
00:54:59
Speaker
but i always find what's what's interesting most about social deduction games is when you find out you're the villain suddenly the game is a lot harder for you and it's a completely different and it's it's it's a little bit more stressful and uh whenever i flip over that loyalty card or whatever and i see oh i'm on the good guy side i'm like okay now everything's straightforward but if i'm on the bad guy's side you're just like i've got to be on 24 7 right and And like my wife, she doesn't like that feeling at all. So she doesn't usually play.
00:55:29
Speaker
ah She'll play social deduction games like one minute, you know, the ones that take 10 minutes or so. But Blood on the Clock Tower, I think she's had enough of because there's too many times when she's been the demon the demon and the stress that happens when people start blaming you and you're trying to deflect and stuff is just not yeah not what she wants to add to her evening. Yeah.
00:55:49
Speaker
remember I remember I used to play Deception Murder in Hong Kong a bit with my gaming group up in Cloncari. And um there was this one girl who just, she just can't lie. She just can't hold, like, and and whenever she was the murderer or the accomplice, like, you knew five seconds into the round. Because you'd be like, oh, it could be, yeah you could have killed them with this and this could be the evidence left behind and she's just got this face on her like,
00:56:15
Speaker
how did you know it was me? And it's like, well, we didn't, we were just sort of going around the table and suggesting what it could have been. And she's like trying to not, not to make facial expression and then putting your head on the table going red. And it's like, yeah, you shouldn't play social interaction games. This isn't the hobby for you.
00:56:31
Speaker
yeah And then there's the funny part where someone has you dead to rights and then they forget, like they say, Oh, I really think Eric is the werewolf or whatever, because of this, that, and the other. And then some other conversation starts. And then when it comes time to nominate or whatever, they're like completely focused on something else. And you're just like, I'm going to sit here. going be quiet. And i'm just going to let it pass.
00:56:50
Speaker
Or how indignant you feel when you've just like, you've given all the information you can and you're like, and this is why. And then someone says, I think you're the werewolf. I think you're the villain. And you're like,
00:57:03
Speaker
i i just gave you all this great stuff. Like, how could you possibly consider me? You know, and it's clearly this person for these reasons. What are you doing? And then and then you get killed. You're like, yeah, I'm a villager. Like, of course.
00:57:15
Speaker
and you're Like, you almost feel like, how how could you do this to me? I've been betrayed. What other topics do we want to craft? ah Well, ah probably something that's not on the page, Eric. And the reason...
00:57:28
Speaker
but One of the reasons why I suggested this was I would like to hear from you about using games with regards to educational psychology.
Educational Value of Games
00:57:38
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:57:41
Speaker
Sit down. Here we go. so but I got my degree because I was interested in using games to help education, help people learn stuff, because there was there were games that I have learned things from, ah real world applicable things.
00:57:57
Speaker
That never would have occurred when playing a game. And so educational psychology was the the major that kind of fit this sort of goal best. And so, yeah, so I went and did my doctoral work on it.
00:58:10
Speaker
And... And it it really, there's a lot of evidence that shows it works really well ah and gives kids opportunities, kids and adults for that matter, opportunities ah to discover stuff and learn things that they narrow normally would have no opportunity to.
00:58:27
Speaker
So as an example, i for my dissertation, we used Timeline's American history in ah U.S. s history classes in high school. And the question that I was asking was, if we played Timeline enough times, would that increase their interest in U.S. history?
00:58:43
Speaker
And so we kind of measured what their interest of history was at the beginning. They played timeline and two or three times over a period of a month or so. And then we measured there their interest later and see was there an increase in the interest in U.S. history?
00:58:55
Speaker
Because none of these these are high school students. They're not, you know, they're taking history because they have to take history. And maybe they maybe they like it, maybe they don't. ah Spoiler. there was no change, no significant statistically significant change. So ah that particular intervention didn't necessarily make a difference, except there was still interesting opportunities for learning that happened.
00:59:16
Speaker
Because in in timeline, you have these different events of American history, and you're just having to figure out where on the timeline they fit in. And you're just kind of placing them there. And the game starts with a real broad timeline. And as the game progresses, it gets tighter.
00:59:29
Speaker
And so one of the cards was the Roswell incident in the 50s. And so one of the students who honestly was kind of a joker in the class, he's like, what was this about? And so then the teacher was like, oh, well, you know, there was this.
00:59:42
Speaker
and And it spawned a whole conversation that truly never would have happened had this game not been played. So there was definitely value there. there wasn't it didn't do what I was hoping it would do, but it certainly did some things. people you know People learning about different events in US history.
01:00:00
Speaker
And what's fun about it is is that they're not going to argue about, oh, do we have to do this, right? Anything's better than you know lectures or mo videos or whatnot, right? So we can play a game yeah and enjoy it as well.
01:00:15
Speaker
And another aspect of it that I really found fascinating was I would bring games into elementary school gifted classes. They'd have game day and we would play games and there wasn't any real learning outcomes expected.
01:00:26
Speaker
It was just them kind of exercising their brain. But obviously you're learning critical thinking and planning and and whatnot. And one of my favorites was playing Escape Curse of the Temple.
01:00:37
Speaker
So it's a 10 minute game. It's kind of Indiana Jones like you're rolling a bunch of dice and trying to get to the temple, get some stuff and get out. And there's no turns, you just go. And so I set it in front of these these four elementary school kids, ah two boys, two girls.
01:00:52
Speaker
I tell them, all right, this is how the rules play and go. And so we start the timer and they're rolling the dice and they just race in different directions. And pretty much immediately, a few minutes in, they all get killed. They all lose the game because their dice get all locked up.
01:01:07
Speaker
And they realize, oh, we need to kind of work together. So they play. Can we play again? Yeah, absolutely. So we started over. We play again. Now theyre boys the boys are clustered together. The girls are clustered together. They're running around.
01:01:18
Speaker
And they're doing better, but they still you know can't can't quite do it. And so, oh, can we play again? like Yeah, sure. So this time, they're just this amorphous blob, all all of them moving in the same direction, helping each other out, moving through, and they succeed, right?
01:01:30
Speaker
And at no point do I sit there and tell them, oh, you need to work together or you need to, you know, they organically sort of... Yeah. Because they're excited. They're motivated to to do that. I mean, any kid that plays Minecraft, you never have to ask them, you know, how hard was it to learn about how to make ah ah an ax, right? He was like, what is the recipe for the ax? I mean, they're motivated to go find that out. They don't say, oh, I don't know how to do this. I quit.
01:01:56
Speaker
You know, I walk away. And that I think is this the superpower of games in education. um There's a, motivational theory called expectancy value theory. And it's basically a connection between how much you value something and how much motivation you have to do it. So, for instance, if you wish to eat and provide for your family, you will go work and get you know and get a job. So you kind of value of that and rather than sleep in all day kind of thing.
01:02:22
Speaker
And so you can certainly see where they you can use games because they'll value, hey, I want to do something kind of interesting and and and play. And so I wanna get better at this. I wanna learn better.
01:02:36
Speaker
And so I'm gonna go and do this over and over again. So again, you don't have to push your kids. I need you to learn how to play the new Jedi survivor game. And they're like, okay, fine. It's my homework. you know No, no, they want to, that's that's that's the power of games. And so that's kind of what I really wanna try and tie into to learning.
01:02:52
Speaker
But it's not just for kids too. It's also for adults. If you guys ever played Keep Trucking and Nobody Explodes, the bomb defusal game, it's a computer game. It's not a board game, but Basically, one guy. played so laings like bumco up and whatno Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah So one guy sits with a laptop and there's a bomb and they have all these different modules that they have to do. And everybody else can't see the bomb, but they've got little sheets of paper that tell you how to diffuse the bomb.
01:03:16
Speaker
So what the person with the bomb has to do is describe what they see. The person, other people have to describe what to do. And it's basically a communication exercise. But what it does really well is it puts all this pressure you. You have five minutes to do this, right?
01:03:31
Speaker
and so it puts all of this pressure on you to try and communicate effectively. And how many times have you played like Pictionary or Charades or something like that where they keep doing the same thing over and over again and you don't move forward?
01:03:42
Speaker
yeah Your brain kind of gets locked? And so at the end of the game, if you succeed or fail, you stop and you say, all right, so you could tell that I wasn't getting what you were saying, but you kept saying the same thing. So how is it that we can kind of, you know, better work out what happens?
01:03:56
Speaker
And then you play it again and suddenly that sort of block is is removed. And so adding those kinds of reflection times at the end of the game really helps allow you to to kind of increase your learning.
01:04:08
Speaker
But the pressure and the excitement that the game provides itself is what creates that opportunity to do that learning. So those ah those are the two kind of real quick, fascinating aspects that I have about games and and psychology. That's awesome. I was recently at my work at a school and I recently, on the last day of school, ran a yeah ah board game session that we're doing like alternative program.
01:04:31
Speaker
And um so it was card games, actually, and we played Flip 7. And we're our table full of kids, you know, about 13 of us. And the kids sitting next to me, the teacher that brought the class in, he said, oh, look, if you get him, you'll be fine. But he is the student that's going to cause you the most hassle. And like a real problem kid kind of, you know, that was the vibe that he was giving off.
01:04:54
Speaker
Anyway, we're playing Flip 7. I've explained the rules. I've explained how it's working. We're playing a few turns. And I deal him, I think, at a 10 and an 11. And he just goes, oh, they're terrible cards to start.
01:05:06
Speaker
And the the teacher was just like blown away by the fact that not only was he engaged in the game, but he'd already figured out the probability. Like he'd already figured out that that's a bad start because it's likely he's going to get busted. and And like he was the first one out of all the kids to figure that out.
01:05:21
Speaker
This problem kid who doesn't do his work in class. And it's like just yeah he's he's found something that he can engage with and it makes him start to think yeah know mathematically about it. how a game works.
01:05:32
Speaker
Yeah. That's brilliant. It was really cool. yeah Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the excitement, right? That's the fun of it. And I really, i really love hearing stories like that and other aspects. I mean, we bring all kinds of games and I discovered um and elementary school kids are terrible at bidding games because they can't hold back, you know, so they'll, they'll, as much as I can just to beat somebody, you know? And that's that's always kind of fun as well. But yeah, these these opportunities, because what games, I mean, we know it, right? We sit down and we see at the beginning of the game where we need to go and we start taking strategies and then pivot on those strategies. So all of these sort of critical thinking skills that are hard to really...
01:06:11
Speaker
train up on ah if you're just focused on maths or just focused on English or just focused, you know what I mean? But when you start trying to put things together, it suddenly gives you that opportunity.
01:06:22
Speaker
And the beauty of the game is the penalty for failure is so low. So if I bomb a math test, you know, that's it. I've, I've lowered my potential grade, but if I bomb a game of flip seven, 15 minutes later, boom, we got a whole new one going, right?
01:06:38
Speaker
You know, sucks that I lost moving on. Sure. And so giving that opportunity to explore and to try and to fail, I think also is pretty helpful. I like your point about the motivation and value, right? Because we use that in business and and use it in life, right?
01:06:54
Speaker
um But look, we have a running game of Flip 7 every day at work. And it's not me that's hosting it. um It's my team.
01:07:05
Speaker
And they'll call out, it's in everyone's diary, flip seven game at one o'clock.
01:07:12
Speaker
And so they're motivated because the value they get out of it is time away from office thinking and we're all having connecting as a team and having a ball. And so we'll play two games and um we hit the third but we'll almost hit a third game because we've got a running trophy.
01:07:30
Speaker
So is the trophy up for grabs today? And so whoever wins, that trophy is sitting on their desk until the next day. And so, um you know, for me, for me when you when you talk about motivation and value, that that's just a little snippet.
01:07:46
Speaker
In someone's day, they're motivated themselves and that's the value they get out of it is that, you know, we're we're here as a team and we're connecting and we're having some fun. Yeah. And to tie it right back to to what you talked about at the very beginning about these connections that we're making, you know, our ah our company is global.
01:08:03
Speaker
And so our group is scattered all over the world. And we have our what call it the culture club. And that's where we just, you know, spend 30 minutes and do some sort of fun activity. And every month there's a different one. And we may do game shows, we may do whatnot.
01:08:16
Speaker
But the the i I have learned more about and connected better with people that I work with through that than through any of the 30-minute business meetings that we have, right? So now when I see them outside of of a work-related thing, we have such a greater connection because of this non-work-related connection that we made or interaction that we had.
01:08:39
Speaker
and it And it humanizes people real easy because... you know Like one of the things we would do is just get different things that people like to do. And then we'd say, oh, one person's a mountain climber. Which of these three people do you think are you know are it and And then you get to tell the story about, well, I climbed a mountain or whatever and learn stuff that just normally doesn't come up in conversation.
01:09:00
Speaker
ah during your team's meeting or whatnot. And so the the value I think that that brings in in building the team, and of course it's not very measurable, right? It's not like you can say, how did you feel about someone before we did this? How do you feel about them now, right?
01:09:14
Speaker
But the value that it builds is is is incredible, I think, and it's definitely valuable. Oh, definitely. It's interesting listening to like listening from this point of view where I don't necessarily have these things happening at work and in this day and age where people chop and change careers, and I'm definitely in an example of that.
01:09:34
Speaker
it If I was working for a company that had a 30 minute flip seven break every day in a trophy, that that Something that small could be the determining factor of staying or going if I got off at a position somewhere else, you know. It's like, yeah, but the culture that I've got here, you know, like every day we get to have fun and do this and if that doesn't happen at the new place, I'm going to miss it and so on and so forth. So it's it's not just the the the the value in the activity. It's also the bigger spectrum, like the value in the workplace, the value in the the environment that you you're doing these games in.
01:10:06
Speaker
yeah You don't want to lose that. Well, we've actually dragged the office in next door as well to start playing, right? So we've got a bigger group because they hear us laughing at one o'clock every day.
01:10:17
Speaker
And they're, what are you guys laughing at? We hear it. know That's our Flip 7 break. So now they they they join us every now and then as well. And they'll say, oh, they're playing Flip 7 in there. Yeah, that's cool. That's good. Well, guys, I've really enjoyed this conversation.
01:10:30
Speaker
i hope you have as well. Any last-minute thoughts you have before we tie this up? Oh, look, I think it's been a wonderful chat. You know, I've added, you know, I've got, No value to add as far as as psychology goes. but um um and However, I've really enjoyed you know sharing you know what we what we do in this industry. It's been good.
01:10:49
Speaker
been really good. Yeah, awesome.
Future Game Plans and Wrap-up
01:10:50
Speaker
Well, we always, before you go, Eric, the the way, the one thing we do before we finish our episodes is we ask the important question, what are you planning on playing in the next week? What's a game that you're looking forward to getting to the table? So, a great question.
01:11:03
Speaker
ah We, I picked up the Mandalorian over Prime Day the other day. And it's game that I had kind of seen but never picked up before. I thought it was a Fantasy Flight game, but it turns out it's not, but it's by Cory Canixia. So it has its roots there. But you're basically kind of playing through the first season of The Mandalorian. It's arguably a two-player game. You can do it solo. You can do with other players, but you share control. so My son and I have been playing it while he's home on summer break. So that's what's next. We're going to knock out a few more. We just rescued but the baby Yoda. So now we're going to try and break free and see what else happens next. So that's that's what's on my next to play list.
01:11:42
Speaker
Nice, nice. um I'm Lords of Waterdeep. It's going to hit the table today. Yeah, After our discussion. ah But we've we've got scheduled for Thursday to play Great Western Trail New Zealand.
01:11:56
Speaker
we're We're still embarking on playing all the Great Western Trails and I'm enjoying it. ah Just for so reference, Eric, I hated Great Western Trail with a passion and um I played El Paso, which is Great Western Trail lot.
01:12:10
Speaker
Really enjoyed that. Then I've started the journey with Great Western Trail and Totally changed my tune on it. Really good game. So now we're going one up on play in New Zealand. Well, for me, I've got a lady called Charlotte coming over today. she's came to the game day that I hosted at the school a couple of weeks back. And I said to Helen yesterday, said,
01:12:30
Speaker
if there's someone in this town that I can corrupt with board games, I reckon it's her. So the journey starts today. so i don't know what we're going to play, but it's going to be, yeah, it may even be Pergola if I learn it before she comes, because that's where I'm aiming. I'm aiming for that sort of light to mid-weight game. She's played mostly yeah um like your mainstream games, but has – playing a heap of different games at the game day that I hosted the other week and just like super keen. So I'm like, ah, this is like, it's one of those, I used to work at a music store and when someone asked me to broaden their music horizons, it was the best question I ever got asked. And that's how I feel this morning. It's like, I'm ready.
01:13:09
Speaker
So hopefully a new convert to the hobby but in the next couple of weeks. ah So let's go with Pergola or maybe even like um she's played Ticket to Ride before. So maybe even just doing like a variant on Ticket to Ride, like the United Kingdom expansion or something like that, just to expand on that. You could you could really make her day, mate. You could teach her Pergola, which is really easy to learn and teach, mate, and then give her the game afterwards.
01:13:36
Speaker
That's true. That is true. That'd be special. Yes. Either way, it's going to be a good day and I'm very much looking forward to potentially corrupting the mind of another person into this hobby. Nice. One of us, one of us.
01:13:49
Speaker
One of us, one of us. That's exactly right. yeah Well, it's been great chatting to you, Eric. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I've enjoyed it too, Shane. It was awesome meeting you. And, well, I'm Eric Dewey. I'm Steve Chivers. And I am him.
01:14:03
Speaker
yeah Excellent. And you've been listening to Onboard Games. And Mate Let's Play. And Mate Let's Play.
01:14:12
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another smart episode of Onboard Games. I'm your host, Eric Dewey. You can find me at ericdewey.com. And I have with me two of the smartest people I know in Australia, Mr. Shane and Mr. Steve from the Mate Let's Play podcast.
01:14:28
Speaker
Steve, Shane, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us, Eric. Thanks for having us, mate. And what ah what an intro. I think anyone's ever called us that here in Australia. So thank you.
01:14:38
Speaker
We'll take it. I like that he qualified it. He qualified it as the smartest people he knows in Australia. yeah So my question is how many people he knows in Australia? Like, are we also the dumbest? you Well, maybe.
01:14:50
Speaker
ah Including the two of you, I know three. We'll take it. We'll still take it. I shouldn't knock back a compliment.
01:15:01
Speaker
I'm just being nice. So let, let our listeners know where you can be found on the internet and about mate. Let's play. So, Matt, let's play his podcast on all of your regular podcast channels.
01:15:13
Speaker
Shane and I have known each other for a about six or seven years in the board gaming hobby, and ah we have been on a couple of podcasts together. and We started this, well, just at the start of this year, actually, and it's been a lot fun. Yeah, it's starting.
01:15:28
Speaker
Yeah, and we just... We talk about board games. Surprise, surprise. so It's good stuff. But we're both but very much so on the on the yeah side of getting people to the table and playing games with people rather than just what we think.
01:15:40
Speaker
So that's why we went with the name Mate Let's Play because it's like let's let's let's actually sit down and have a game. And something that we know we do really well over here in in Brisbane and Queensland is you know we make sure we connect the community to the to the wonderful hobby and bring as many people into the gaming industry that we can.
01:15:55
Speaker
That is awesome. Yeah, I was I was been watching a show called AP Bio on Netflix and I reached to the fourth season and this this it's irrelevant why. But this guy's at his house and this student comes over and says, oh, I see you have Twilight Imperium and let's break it out and play. And I was like, of all the games to pull out of nowhere, Twilight Imperium is because there's no other real nerdy stuff in the show.
01:16:24
Speaker
I was that was a bizarre reach. and It was actually a critical moment in the in the whole show or critical plot point. So obviously they had nothing to do for the whole day. Let's play Twilight Imperium. That's the funny part, right? is like Because then he invites, like because he's got to prove he has friends, so he invites four other co-workers to play Twilight Imperium.
01:16:46
Speaker
And like none of them read the rules or anything. Nobody knows what's going on. And I'm just sitting there just cracking up inside like, this is so unrealistic. Like the rest of the show is realistic at all. But you know it's like, this is the part that broke me on it. It was funny.
01:16:59
Speaker
that's ah we We've actually just it Twilight Imperium's just come to BGA in Alpha and that's bizarre. And I was like, oh, this is cool because like Shane and I are part of a group that probably once every couple of years get together and play a game of Twilight Imperium. And it's awesome. And it's like a full day. there's There's a meal plan. like it's There's a lot that goes into a game of TI4.
01:17:21
Speaker
And I'm like, all right, well, let's let's have a game of TI4 on BGA and see what it's like. And don't know about you, Shane, but I found that interface difficult. to the point where I'm no longer in that game.
01:17:34
Speaker
I have removed myself from the conversation. No one's in that game anymore, I don't think, because I think so someone had timed out and then it said, you may leave this game. And I'm yep.
01:17:45
Speaker
Out I went. So I don't think anyone's playing it. It was it was ah it was messy. ah But, you know interesting though, if i if i if I walked into a house and I saw sidereal convluence on the shelf, I'd be walking back out.
01:17:59
Speaker
We've all got those games. Yeah, we've got those games.