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Ep 57: Fine Wine Meets Web3: Provenance, Liquidity, and Trust
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What happens when Bordeaux meets blockchain? Connor Daly, CTO of CrewTrade, explains how tokenizing wine on the blockchain is transforming a $25B industry with transparency, traceability, and a whole new kind of cellar. By unlocking instant liquidity and aligning incentives, the model empowers producers with fairer economics and gives collectors and consumers trusted access to the world’s finest bottles. Discover more at crutrade.io
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Transcript
Introduction to Owl Explains Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome to this Owl Explains Hootenanny, our podcast series where you can wise up on blockchain and Web3 as we talk to the people seeking to build a better internet.
00:00:17
Speaker
Owl Explains is powered by Avalabs, a blockchain software company and participant in the Avalanche ecosystem. My name is Silvia Sanchez, project manager of Owl Explains, and with that, I'll hand it over to today's amazing speakers.
00:00:33
Speaker
Hi everybody, welcome back to our Owl Explains podcast.
Tokenization of Real-World Assets: Focus on Fine Wine
00:00:37
Speaker
I'm Sylvia and today we're pouring a glass of something special, literally, because we talk a lot about tokenization, real world assets on chain, bringing trust and transparency to things beyond crypto.
00:00:50
Speaker
But what if I told you one of these really cool use cases isn't just finance, but fine wine. We have CrewRated and its new marketplace, CrewTrade.
00:01:00
Speaker
Since launching in 2021, CrewRated has become the world's leader in tokenized fine wine with over 60 million in sales, 200,000 bottles managed, and every one tagged and tracked on-chain.
00:01:13
Speaker
They're unlocking the $25 billion dollar fine wine secondary market, solving spoilage, providence, and access all through
Blockchain's Role in Wine Authenticity
00:01:22
Speaker
blockchain. And today we have Connor Daly, CTO of CrewTrade, who was also one of our very first podcast guests a couple of years ago. And now we're going to talk about how blockchain is keeping your wine authentic, what tokenized wine means for collectors and restaurants, and also what policymakers can learn from it.
00:01:41
Speaker
So, Hi, Connor. Welcome to our show. It is so good to be back. Yeah, I remember when this show started a long time ago now, and it's really great to see all the success you've had over the years, and I'm so excited to chat more today.
00:01:57
Speaker
Thank you. Thanks. Yeah, and it's cool how you know we we started off talking about like subnets, and just it was more of a foundational episode. i also think it's important you know to talk about the the tech and the basis of it, but now that we can also show people what we can do with the tech, more than telling them what it's about we can also have these types of use cases so when we met again in a London earlier this year and you were telling me about this I was like okay you gotta to be on the podcast um so let's get it started um what do you think that's broken about the fine wine market today why do collectors and restaurants struggle with authenticity access and storage
00:02:38
Speaker
Well, when it comes to fine wine, there's a few things that you need to look out for. The first, as you mentioned, is spoilage. Wine is a living product. It changes and it needs very special conditions to be delivered with optimal, the optimal experience, with optimal flavor and without being what we say, becoming corked, which is when it's spoiled. You need to manage the light, the temperature, the humidity. um And as you...
00:03:05
Speaker
transfer for these bottles throughout the world if you're shipping them across the country. um They might end up in a warehouse overnight in Austin, Texas, where I live, and where it's 100 degrees all the time. Wine doesn't like that.
Challenges in the Fine Wine Market
00:03:18
Speaker
um So when it comes to these really expensive, really fancy bottles that fine wine drinkers love, you have to make sure that they're stored properly, that they're only interacting and and and stored by trusted parties,
00:03:32
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who can ah make sure that the wine is being treated properly. In addition, you also have some issues with falsification, or people who are willing to buy a $1,000 bottle, drink it, and then refill the bottle with $10 bottle and recork it and try to resell it on the on the on the market.
00:03:52
Speaker
So, there's a few different tricky areas that we need to look out for. And CrewTrade, we're really interested in solving these prominence issues to make sure That when you get a bottle that's certified by us, you're getting the legitimate wine that you ordered in perfect condition.
00:04:09
Speaker
Because wine is so often tied to the special experiences of our lives. It's so often that you want to get a bottle for an anniversary dinner or a birthday or some special moment.
00:04:20
Speaker
And the last thing you want to do is spoil that moment with a bad bottle. For sure. that That's a really good way to put it. um And i think even before blockchain enters the picture, what do you think happens when the providence fails? Can share a story or an example where a collector or a restaurant got burned? And and this speaking of of this wine sense of authenticity.
00:04:44
Speaker
Sure, so this happens all the time. So if you've ever ordered a glass at a restaurant, or ordered a bottle rather, the waiter will come to you and will pour a small taste of the wine for you to try.
00:04:59
Speaker
So when he does that, he's not actually asking, do you think this wine tastes good? What they're actually doing is asking, is this bottle spoiled? it Has it been corked? And so most of us, we just say, oh yeah, this is the wine ordered.
00:05:13
Speaker
It tastes good, yeah. And then you're just like, okay, pour the rest. It seems good. But the reason they do that is because corkage is actually something that happens quite frequently. So often that, you know, it's not a rarity that we actually should ask every guest at the restaurant if the bottle they ordered is good.
00:05:30
Speaker
right So just that that the fact that that practice is a norm is an artifact of the fact that the wine industry produces so many bottles that aren't delivered under optimal conditions.
00:05:42
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And so i was chatting with an investor collector just last week, and he was telling me how ah the bottle that he ordered that you know cost over a thousand euros was was was corked and the waiter was fighting him on it at the restaurant. And the only reason that the waiter eventually relented to getting him another replacement bottle was because he was you know such a high-level customer with them.
00:06:06
Speaker
So this is something that happens all the time in every restaurant in the world. And if you're going to be paying top dollar for a bottle, you want to get you want to get what you're paying for. Of course, of course. I think it's having that that authenticity, knowing that it's right there. And it's a bit hard just by looking at it. So I think it's it's cool. and I bet some people didn't know that when you pour that, that taste test, it's not really to see whether you like it, whether it's sweet or a bit on the dry side, but to actually see, okay, was a bottle corked or not?
Provenance Tracking with Blockchain
00:06:38
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And now, and speaking of corks, let's pop the cork on the tech side because every curated bottle gets RFID tagged and recorded on chain.
00:06:48
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And i want to know more about this process, you know, from vineyard to blockchain. How do you create this digital twin of a wine bottle? Yeah, absolutely. And this is what we really care about is is the provenance of the bottle. So we're trying to track the source and conditions of the bottle all the way from bottling time with the producer to the final delivery to the customer.
00:07:15
Speaker
And so, CrewRated, our partner company, works directly with producers to secure an allocation of their bottles. And so, we work with them to try to either get them to work with our technology so that they can apply bottles, apply tags and RFIDs themselves, or we work with them to verify chain of custody so that when the bottles are delivered to us, we can update the tagging information for them if they're not tech savvy enough.
00:07:42
Speaker
And so the idea is that we are tracking the supply chain of the bottle everywhere it goes. And then once the bottles are delivered to CrewRated, they're stored in what's known as a bonded warehouse.
00:07:54
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So a bonded warehouse is a special government certified facility that has temperature control, security controls that make sure that it can always store bottles under proper optimal conditions.
00:08:07
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And so once these bottles are in the bonded warehouse, we know that they're going to stay stay healthy, And we know exactly where they're going to be. And we'll actually hold on to those bottles until the customer is ready for delivery.
00:08:25
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And then we can track if we move the bottle to a different warehouse, we track all those changes as well. So when the customer finally does request delivery, we can send it to them and they can see everywhere that their bottle has been from the producer to their doorstep.
00:08:39
Speaker
And that's what we're really excited about is letting individual consumers know the provenance of not just lots, but individual bottles. So if you buy a case of six, you can see where every individual bottle from that lot has ever been.
00:08:52
Speaker
And we're super excited about that. That sounds amazing. So pretty much just to summarize the process, it's the bonded warehouse where they will stay in healthy conditions center until they are ready to be delivered to the customer.
00:09:05
Speaker
But you also are tracking the different location changes, like tracing all on the path of not just the lots, but the bottles, right? Exactly, exactly. and which is one of the actual difficulties of of building this kind of marketplace is,
00:09:20
Speaker
most people who Most retailers actually deal in lots. They deal in SKUs. But we've had to actually manage things on the bottle-by-bottle level. So when it comes to warehouse infrastructure, when it comes to managing our inventory systems, we have hundreds of thousands of SKUs because every bottle is effectively one-of-one.
00:09:42
Speaker
And has been some interesting technical challenges, but we're really excited about the ability to deliver this value for for customers and be able to show that provenance. And that's great because it's not just, yeah, and at the bulk level, but ensuring quality also in in one bottle. Because even if, and you know, most of them are right, but you are the unlucky customer that has one bad bottle.
00:10:06
Speaker
And we're not talking about just, you know, the $5 wine. Like this is actually a big deal. Like you said, this $1,000 bottle that was corked at that restaurant, like there's this whole market behind it. And I think a big component of this is trust.
00:10:19
Speaker
So I think that we have to make the connection with trust, with blockchain and also knowing, OK, why is blockchain uniquely good at solving this provenance? What makes it more reliable than another database or than a centralized database?
00:10:36
Speaker
Well, the truth is there's a lot of different parties involved. So, with Crew Trade, and right now we're working with Crew Rated, but in principle, we plan to work with other potential bonded warehouses and other providers who have bottles with verified a storage and and and storage conditions.
00:10:56
Speaker
So, There's all these different parties involved. There's producers, there's warehouses, there's distribution companies. And as you're tracking the supply chain, it's very hard to get all of these people to coordinate at the same time. and so blockchain provides a decentralized way for us and all of the parties involved to contribute to the knowledge of the system and contribute to the authenticity of the system so that every party is attesting to their piece of it.
00:11:23
Speaker
And At the end of the day, the customer can go in and see in a transparent way everything that has happened. And they don't have to trust us. They can see all the data is publicly available.
00:11:34
Speaker
And they can go in and verify that when they get the bottle at the table, they can scan the bottle and they can see exactly where it's been and everyone who's been a part of of the journey to get to them.
00:11:45
Speaker
That's great. um And I think the organization also can can make this effort this this process a bit you know more effortless in the sense that it can create instant liquidity for collectors. I think not just on the provenance side of things, ensuring that, okay, this Bordeaux, for example, is actually that.
00:12:06
Speaker
um But what about the part of of liquidity? How can that be a bit more facilitated for the wine collectors?
CrewTrade's Marketplace and Future Plans
00:12:13
Speaker
So this is where things get really exciting for me. And so this is where Crew Trade, the the company I work for, really comes in.
00:12:21
Speaker
So what we do is we take all these wines, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of wines, stored in these bonded warehouses. um And we make them available for trading.
00:12:31
Speaker
So crew trade is a secondary marketplace that allows wines to be traded to unlock the liquidity, essentially. Or as we like to say, our joke, our tagline is we're making wine liquid again.
00:12:45
Speaker
So a basically, these these collectors will store wine and in these warehouses. But if they'd like to sell them, it's incredibly difficult because if they take the bottles out of the cellar to sell them themselves, take them out of the bonded warehouse, they've broken the chain of custody. Now, we don't we can't verify that if the bottle's been at your house, it's been stored in optimal conditions the whole time.
00:13:07
Speaker
And if you want to go to an auction house like Christie's to sell a bottle, they have major fees that they're going to slap you with. So what CrewTrade does is we allow you to trade your bottles on the secondary marketplace using NFTs. So when you buy wine you're buying an NFT.
00:13:27
Speaker
that is corresponding to the wine. So we can do permissionless trading just like we can with JPEGs and and other types of NFTs, but we are doing so for fine wine and we're taking this real world asset, putting it on chain and allowing people to frictionlessly trade wine and move it without compromising provenance, without compromising quality.
00:13:50
Speaker
So you'll be able to see for an individual bottle the entire trading history over its lifetime as well as its location history, which is what we're just so excited about so that ah the collectors now have access to bottles that have previously been locked away or were, had no supply on the secondary market. Now we're enabling people to list rare bottles to list the things that they want to sell and just still not without compromising provenance and with lower fees than we've ever seen before on the secondary marketplace.
00:14:23
Speaker
That's amazing. And I think that actually makes it more on the practical side more than, okay, just buy a nice bottle of wine and you're hundred percent sure that it's the the real thing, that it's authentic and you drink it, but it's taking it a step further when it comes to trading and actually having this, this marketplace move. I like what you said of making wine liquid again.
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Download Core today! before Before I was moving to to Sicily, I lived in Portugal, and there the wine culture is huge. no like They have so many different wine regions in a relatively small country, especially at the north. You have the port wine a from the Douro Valley. And I was speaking ah to one of the owners of of these villas, these... um wine cellars and he was like we have these great bottles but then um all the process that goes and making sure that people trust that is the real thing because you know there's a lot of different wines and they all look similar so also making it stand out and have the people have that trust item and i was like okay that would be a cool application for for you know the blockchain so that people can trace the path
00:16:32
Speaker
So I think that's also when and you told me about this project that was like, I know there's a lot of people that are curious for this and that there's a demand for, for this type of product. And that would also make the, the trading of it easier. If you're a collector, how do you, um,
00:16:49
Speaker
How can you make it more seamless? And I think that's where this type of technology really comes in. And you've also hinted at something big, transforming this billion dollar industry, the restaurant wine market with collector to consumer space, like ghost kitchens for wine lists. So what does that future look like? Can you tell us more about about that vision?
00:17:09
Speaker
Yeah, so City Service is is a project that we're working on right now. That's the code name. um don't know if that'll be the final name. But the idea is we want to make great wine available to collectors no matter where they are, at home or at the restaurant.
00:17:26
Speaker
um When you enter the fine wine world, most restaurants have a hard time stocking high-end bottles for the simple reason that Not that many of their customers are going to want to spend ah thousand euros or a thousand dollars on a bottle.
00:17:44
Speaker
But there are certain customers who do, and it's very profitable when they come in But unfortunately, they might only come in a couple times a year. So there's very low rotation on these bottles in a restaurant.
00:17:57
Speaker
So, and to some degree you need to have them because when those customers come in, if they the bottles aren't there, they're not gonna come back. So as a restaurant, you need to be willing to invest tens of thousands of dollars into building out your wine cellar and buying bottles that are only going to sell and move maybe like once or twice a year.
00:18:17
Speaker
So as a restaurant, you have to invest so much capital up front and just hold it and just sit there, sit on that money this whole time. What we're trying to do with city service is make some of the best wines in the world available for any restaurant, essentially, and for any diner who's able to go to one of our restaurants.
00:18:38
Speaker
And basically, you know, the idea is that We'll send you, when you make your reservation at the restaurant ahead of time, yeah we'll send you a link where you have a kind of branded page to see what wines are available and have the option to order the wine ahead of time. And we will manage to ah deliver that wine to you just in time at your restaurant seat.
00:19:00
Speaker
So as you sit down for your dinner, we're able to put it on the table and and pour you an ice glass. And this way you have access to some of the most incredible bottles in the world and affordable prices that are actually less than what the restaurant would charge if they actually had to store the bottle themselves and hold onto it to ah for a year.
00:19:20
Speaker
So we're able to actually um reduce fees for everyone involved while still giving the restaurant a healthy cut of the bottle and making it cheaper for the consumer at the end as well. And so we're we're super excited about this because we just really want to bring access to great wines to as many people as possible.
00:19:38
Speaker
That sounds amazing. Like just making it, that sounds like a woodwind situation, to be honest. um And on the incentives part, um the part of fees flow back to producers and infrastructure. So why is that alignment important? How would that change the economics of of the wine trade essentially?
00:19:57
Speaker
There's a lot of people in the world who sell wine and we are not the first, we will not be the last. What we are really interested in is growing the whole pie, not just carving out a slice of it for ourselves.
00:20:10
Speaker
And we think that if we want to make the wine market bigger, if we want to make crew trade a net positive for the world and not just the middleman, we need to bring and incentive alignment to all the parties who go into the wine transaction.
00:20:28
Speaker
We wanna make sure that producers are properly rewarded because they're really the ones doing the hard work. They're the artisans who are making these amazing wines. We want to reward the restaurants who are bringing people in and providing amazing experiences. We want to reward the customers who are buying these bottles and make everyone in that chain feel valued.
00:20:48
Speaker
So our idea here is to do this through a token launch. So eventually we're we're working on this crew token. And the idea here is to just align everyone's incentives so that When you buy a bottle of wine, everyone in that value chain gets rewarded. that Everyone who has touched the bottle in in some way, shape, or form gets to see the profits of their of their work.
00:21:14
Speaker
And that includes the producers. The producers are so dear to us. We've worked with some amazing ones. And the reason that Crew Trade is going to be successful is because we have access to ah some of the greatest wines in the world.
00:21:29
Speaker
And that includes, you know, producers like Pierre Jardin and Teo Dancer and just so many amazing people that I've had the chance to meet and chat about wine with. And we want to make sure that they're part of the process and they get to be part of the rewards because producers are not necessarily the most technologically advanced people. This is all a little bit of crazy funding money to them. And so...
00:21:53
Speaker
One of the ways that we are working to bring them along is say, hey, we want to we want to make sure that you're profiting from your your work. We want to make sure that when your bottle sells on the secondary marketplace for 10 times what you sold it for initially, you get a small cut of that.
00:22:09
Speaker
And so that's that's our goal. So just to help producers and everyone else in the value chain stay in the loop and get a piece of that secondary marketplace so that everyone wants to keep building together.
00:22:22
Speaker
And that's huge. and that's That's really good because at the end of the day, that also makes it more sustainable on both sides. And fast forward a few more years and you kind of already touched on this, but how else would success look like for crew trade? Is it also unlocking private collections?
00:22:39
Speaker
um What's that that dream scenario? Oh, definitely. we We definitely want to always increase our wine list. We want to make as much wine available as possible. It's about unlocking liquidity.
00:22:52
Speaker
There's so much of the wine world that is locked away in these bonded warehouses with limited supply, and we want to make sure that people are drinking and not storing bottles. yeah I can't remember our tagline, but we we've we've got a couple. of Making wine liquid again, that's my favorite.
00:23:10
Speaker
Sipping, not storing, something like that. is the other one is we want to make sure that, um, you know, bottles go to the right hands. We want them to be, to be drinking. That that's the goal. We want to take the best bottles in the world and make them available for people. We want bottles to move.
00:23:26
Speaker
We don't want bottles to just sit for years and years and years, because that doesn't really benefit anyone. So that's, that's our dream. We just want to get great wine to great people. and,
00:23:37
Speaker
make sure that we're all getting to enjoy this this wonderful product that we all know and love. Yeah, for sure. And beyond wine, do you see this as a blueprint for luxury goods more broadly, ah whether it's collections collections of sneakers, fine art, jewelry?
Expansion of Tokenization Model to Other Luxury Goods
00:23:55
Speaker
ah But also, what makes wine the perfect use case study for real-world assets? Absolutely. So you nailed it exactly. This is just the test pilot for what is possible here when it comes to unlocking the liquidity of these luxury goods and real-world assets. Because that that's what wine is here. It's a real-world asset. we We've proven we can trade JPEGs. We've proven we can trade digital assets.
00:24:21
Speaker
But now, what does it look like to actually do on-chain trading of real-world assets? And wine is great because there's already a market for it. There's already a ah pretty substantial market.
00:24:33
Speaker
um There's so much of it in the world. There's demand for it every year. It's it's a huge industry. And the people who love wine really love wine and there's problems in the market today It's like we said or we talked earlier provenance provenance provenance access and fees as well just the The current fee structure of actually reselling bottles. It's just a very fraught process with auction houses and and everything so um this is just where we can provide a 10x better solution and
00:25:04
Speaker
When we prove that it's a amazing marketplace where can find the best quality products in the world, it's very easy to add sneakers to the shop page or whatever.
00:25:16
Speaker
a lot of these things too, if you have a warehouse that can manage the right air conditioning temperatures, you know, the temperatures, humidity, amount of light, things like that, those are good storage conditions for many household luxury goods.
00:25:32
Speaker
So we're really excited about our ability to unlock more assets, to ah hopefully unlock, put more real world assets on chain. And we're also just lucky to have such great partners at CrewRated who have already done so much of the work of of putting this wine on chain.
00:25:53
Speaker
And so it's, you by having great partners that allows us to to do this kind of work. And that's huge. That's a very important component of it. um And I think I'm also kind of biased on this. I enjoy ah ah good type of wine and I think it's much more interesting than drawings of monkeys as an NFT.
00:26:13
Speaker
well But of course, to each of their own, that there are infinite applications. um But this was probably an example that maybe didn't come into people's minds when they hear the word NFTs. I think there was a lot of hype around that. But look, you can also have Wapnotch Wine tokenized on the blockchain and they can ah trace all the process. um So that's I think when we talk about use cases, this should be also there on the list, but just for curiosity, as we are almost out of time, what's one of the craziest bottles in the cure curated settle that's tokenized and which one is your favorite?
00:26:55
Speaker
You know, I just got back from uh, set of investor meetings last week and, uh, Our company really loves wine. ah So as we were having our investor dinners, I sat down for dinner. we've we've actually We actually brought our own wine with us everywhere we went.
00:27:14
Speaker
And so we we had dinner a few nights. And at the investor meeting, we had the the most wine there. So I sat down at my table. I had four glasses in front of me. And so I think we brought eight different wines that night.
00:27:27
Speaker
um So haven't had a chance to sample a ton of our inventory, but that night I got to try a lot of it. And...
00:27:38
Speaker
Oh, I think it was the, the Villamont, uh, 2013 champagne. and just really grew on me over the last, over the last week. So that, that's my, my current answer for, for my favorite.
00:27:51
Speaker
Um, but I say, you know, for, for a shout out for a bottle on the marketplace, uh, I just really love what, um, Tango dancer has been doing. i think he's one of the most technology future looking wine producers out there.
00:28:05
Speaker
um He has been very involved with Crew Rated and has been very helpful to Crew Trade as well. So I'm just super bullish on everything that he's doing.
00:28:19
Speaker
And we're super excited to work with him. So and I'll say that he does publish under two labels. So he has some bottles called Vincent Dancer, some others called Teo Dancer for for the producer. So I'll say any of the Dancer bottles, those those are my favorite.
00:28:34
Speaker
but Oh, good to know. I'll have to try them. Well, Connor, this was fantastic. It was so great to have you back. And particularly today, thank you for showing us how centuries of tradition can actually be strengthened by blockchain technology and benefits both the producers and the
Conclusion and Resource Invitation
00:28:50
Speaker
consumers. So Connor, where can people find you? Where can people know more about Crew Trade?
00:28:55
Speaker
Is there a website where people can can visit you and know more about what you guys are working on? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, thank you so much for for having me. This was so much fun. So I'm so excited to say we're actually just launching. I think we should be live by the time this website, sorry, this website, this podcast goes out.
00:29:13
Speaker
And we've been in private beta for the last few months and working with specific collectors, but we are launching for the public right now. So you can check out our website We are
00:29:29
Speaker
That is the best place to find all of our information and to find your next great glass. Amazing. Well, check it out. and Get a really nice and bottle of wine. and thanks again, Connor. Great to have you. You're welcome anytime. We're also really happy to see what you're working on.
00:29:45
Speaker
And yeah, stay tuned for our future episodes here at Owl Explains. Not just policy, not just super technical, but because you see, these are cool applications. Thanks, Connor. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time.
00:30:01
Speaker
We hope you enjoyed our Hootenanny. Thank you for listening. For more hootful and hype-free resources, visit owlexplains.com. There, you will find articles, quizzes, practical explainers, suggested reading materials, and lots more.
00:30:16
Speaker
Also, follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to continue wising up on blockchain and Web3. That's all for now on Owl Explains. Until next time.