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The Fourth Phase of Water with Dr. Gerald Pollack | Underground Physiology #02
30 Plays2 months ago
In this episode of Underground Physiology, Dr. Pollack delves into the fascinating physiology behind his groundbreaking discovery—the fourth phase of water, known as a gel. We explore in depth how this gel forms a perfect semiconductor within the human body and how red light, particularly infrared light, serves as the key energy source driving this process.
Dr. Pollack’s revelation that human cells maintain their negative charge through the interaction of infrared light and water is one of the most revolutionary concepts in modern physiology. Yet, despite clear scientific evidence supporting his findings, mainstream science has been slow to accept them.
An active researcher and author, Dr. Pollack has spent his life driven by curiosity, translating his insights into paradigm-shifting scientific breakthroughs. Join us for a captivating discussion as we uncover the underground physiology of the fourth phase of water—an episode you won’t want to miss!
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Transcript
Introduction to Dr. Pollack and Radical Physiology
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome, Dr. Pollack. I'm really excited to have you and I just want to introduce you. The purpose of my podcast is to introduce concepts in physiology that really are very radical or changing the the dynamic of the conventional wisdom. Dr. Pollack is a scientist. He's been he's authored over 300 research publications. He's got two award-winning books, the fourth phase of water, cells, gels, and engines of life. You received the first Emoto Peace Prize and is the recipient of the University of Washington's highest honor, an annual faculty lecture award. He's the founding editor-in-chief of the research journal of water and the director of the Institute for Venture Science. I could go on, but it would probably take the whole podcast. So I just want to welcome you and thank you for
00:00:57
Speaker
Thank you for coming on to my podcast. And I want to start out by learning a little bit about your
Dr. Pollack's Research and Influences
00:01:05
Speaker
history. what if Most of your research is in water, but it's also in the physics of energy, how the body utilizes this new source of energy or this you know unconventional source of energy. But you were influenced by Gilbert Lang. How did you find his work?
00:01:26
Speaker
how And that seems like it really inspired you. So if you could talk about that, I'd really appreciate that. Sure, that absolutely inspired me. I had been in a completely different field. We were interested in the molecular mechanism of muscle contraction. And I spent a couple of decades in and that field. and um It was there that I learned something about scientific sociology. um The person ah ah person who had the the prevailing theory of muscle contraction, ah Sir Andrew Huxley, a member of the Huxley family, um ah mastered a master of Trinity College in Cambridge, president of the Royal Society,
00:02:13
Speaker
um Et cetera, et cetera. when when he When he walked into a room, it was like hush. God had just entered, so everybody keep quiet. So, you know, among no but Nobel laureates, he was a laureate on top of all, you might say, the other laureates because he had every distinction.
00:02:34
Speaker
So i learned I learned something. We contributed greatly to the field, but ah few people paid attention ah to to our ah kind of contributions. and but um And I understood that that if you're up against someone of the caliber of Sir Andrew Huxley, you're not going to win. ah Because other people in the field, given a choice of this young upstart,
00:03:03
Speaker
I was then, and and the famous godlike Sir Andrew Huxley, there's no question. ah So I don't have any bitterness or anything. I still maintain that ah we're on the right track, and his theory is frankly a non-starter. It disagrees with so much evidence, which people in the field
Inspiration from Gilbert Ling
00:03:22
Speaker
ignore. So I i got a sense of ah what it was like.
00:03:27
Speaker
ah to fight against the mainstream. And then, regarding um ah the the meeting of Gilbert Ling, it happened by chance. I i had no interest and in water, except you know that muscles are mostly water, um as as every every tissue is is mostly water. So um you know it it holds it holds kind of hold some intrinsic interest but so i went to a symposium i was invited to a symposium ah to honor the memory of a famous hungarian scientist whose name is ernst.
00:04:09
Speaker
um And he had two interests. One was water and the other one was muscle contraction. So I was invited to cover muscle contraction because Ernst's ideas were not so dissimilar to mine. he knew He knew that there was something amiss with the prevailing theory that came from Sir Andrew Huxley. You're talking about just the actin and myosin.
00:04:35
Speaker
You know, just the ATB activism, yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, how how it actually works. I don't want to get into it because it would take yeah too much time. But but I, you know, we we had really ample evidence that that um the theory didn't work. um and And I've written about it. It appears as a chapter in my Sales, Jails, and the Engines of Life book.
00:05:02
Speaker
And I wrote a book earlier than that on the mechanism of muscle contraction. ah And that book, practically everybody in the field has on their shelves. But as I came to realize when I visited one of these colleagues, I saw that book, the red cover. I saw it on the bookshelf. Hey, that's my book. So he pulls it out and opens it. ah it It had never been cracked open before. It was the first time.
00:05:28
Speaker
So i I found out that, yeah, people felt obliged to purchase the book, but they didn't care about reading it. So so anyway, um so I went to this conference in Hungary ah and I gave my presentation and I, you know, I think it went okay. But then Gilbert Lin got up and gave his presentation.
00:05:51
Speaker
I was blown away. He he was saying he was saying that that inside the cell, um and he confined his interest to inside the cell, mostly, inside the cell, the the water was not not the same as liquid water. So if you have liquid water, at least according to the current understanding, the molecules are randomly disposed and bouncing around a fierce number of times per second.
00:06:18
Speaker
ah and And he said no no it's not like that in the cell the ah molecules are organized and he viewed the water molecules as kind of stacked or like soldiers and attention. um You know ah in in in a row and and he said the cell was filled with that not with liquid water.
00:06:38
Speaker
um And, you know, ordinarily it it would sound, ah well, strange, impossible for that kind of situation. But he had a lot of evidence. And then after him came a half dozen or more independent scientists who had evidence to support his point of view. Well, as I said, I was blown blown away, overwhelmed because it seemed but seemed um awfully reasonable at what he was talking about.
00:07:08
Speaker
But you know i I get easily impressed by interesting ideas. And so I had to test
Discovering Exclusion Zone (EZ) Water
00:07:15
Speaker
myself. And when I returned to Seattle, I gave one of his books. By that time, he had three or four. He died five years ago. I think there were five or six.
00:07:27
Speaker
um So I gave it to a few of my my students who I knew had could potentially have interest in the kind of subject as a test to see what their reaction was and And their reactions were uniform. They came back to me and they said first of all The theory is so interesting and if it's true it's going to change all of biological thinking because the the The pillar of of thinking is that the water is liquid water. ah you know and And any molecule can easily move around and diffuse um in in water. but ah But he said, no, that's not the case. It's a difference. It's sort of like a crystal, like a liquid crystal. And ah just as a ah preface,
00:08:17
Speaker
um When we started doing experiments, we could confirm that the water was different, um as Gilbert Ling suggested, but but we came on some ah findings that i I think are well well well beyond Gilbert Ling and and so basic and fundamental for for biology. And when you if when you ask me the questions, I'll tell you about that. So anyway, that's that's how I got into it, um impressed by by a lecture and other evidence had followed. And and we began to do experiments. Before the experiment, it was necessary. ah We had no money to study water. We had money money to study muscle contraction. you know You can't do anything in a lab without having funds.
00:09:05
Speaker
ah ah And that has turned out now to be an acute problem because our work challenges so so many so many themes. But I decided at the time that I want to help Gilbert Ling. I want to popularize his ideas. So I wrote a book, and that was Sales, Jails, and the Engines of Life.
00:09:27
Speaker
And the first half of the book ah was designed to bring Gilbert Ling's ideas to the main well not the mainstream necessarily but to the community because Gilbert's writing is not so well how should I say it doesn't read like it's pretty deep isn't it it's pretty it's very deep to the point where you really need a and ah practically a PhD in physical chemistry to follow every argument he makes. And I have the feeling i had the feeling that the word editing ah never entered his lexicon. I think maybe maybe the word doesn't exist in the Chinese language, i I'm not sure. but So he you know he'd pound something out initially on the typewriter and then the word processor and send it off to the publisher and the publisher would publish it.
00:10:21
Speaker
and And it was so obscure that few people could really get into it. And and that's not that's not the way to market those kinds of ideas. And so i I thought I was doing something noble by attempting to bring his ideas um into the mainstream. Well, it turned out he hated it.
00:10:43
Speaker
He absolutely hated it. And I i was shocked. But and you know I'm thinking, why did why did he hate it but did he hate it? His expressed reason ah was that I didn't quote him enough.
00:10:59
Speaker
And I thought I made it clear in the preface and and throughout that I'm talking about Gilbert Ling's ideas, not my ideas, but he didn't see it that way. And and one day he wrote a rather than nasty email to me saying, I don't like what you've what you've done and and a few points and sent it to virtually everybody in the field of water, CC.
00:11:25
Speaker
um It took me 10 years to restore our friendship. It happened at a conference that I organized and invited him. and I got up there and presented evidence for long-range ordering of water. He jumped out of his seat. and And he his enthusiasm was unbridled. ah So then we made friends again. And, you know, some some people ah found him a rather difficult guy. And he himself told me, he said, sometimes I'm at a large conference and usually there's there's a ballroom and has like six doors for people to come in and out.
00:12:09
Speaker
And he'd enter from one side of the room and someone else from the opposite side of the room, and when that person saw him, he made a U-turn and left because he didn't didn't want to be associated with Gilbert Ling. Anyway, the personalities are not necessarily in the issue, but I view the man as a genius. and ah And he discovered something that got us going. And and so when we finally could gather some funding, we began our experiments. So I hope that answers your question. Yeah. Yeah. Did did he, you know, I haven't read much or very little of his work. Did he, I mean, a lot of his work was theoretical, but what I understand is you actually did a lot of the experience to validate his work.
00:12:58
Speaker
Did he do a lot of experimentation and published work to validate his theories? i'm suppose No, absolutely. In his work, but of course, there was some theoretical stuff, but it was mostly experimental. He he did numerous experiments to test various ideas, not only the organization of water molecules, ah but also the role of ATP, for example. um he He had something different to say about ah about that. is though That is an amazing concept because most of science, or all of science still to this day, is so ATP-focused instead of efficiency-focused and and energy sources like what you're talking what we're going to talk about here. and He brought that into concept where
00:13:44
Speaker
you know that water could be charged and create this free source of energy that we're going to talk about that you did your work for. And so and that's what's so revolutionary about this whole concept is is to this day, every seminar you go to, it's ATP is it. That's the only source of energy we have. And the so you know let's get on to a little bit about your work. You were the first one to coin
00:14:15
Speaker
the phrase exclusion zone, easy water, fourth phase of water. And when you started doing this work, um you know kind of just recap your process of discovering it and what this exclusion zone is and why it's important and how it is formed in the body you know with infrared light, you know all the way to getting the supplying the negative charge in the cell, which is fascinating because all of physiology is still based on this sodium potassium pump being maintaining this important negative charge. And what really struck me is when I went and saw you and listened to your talk, it just hit me like a ah brick in the head that
00:15:10
Speaker
Everything is based on ATP and it never made sense to me that 60% of these cells energy would be used to make just to maintain a pump to keep that negative charge. It just never made sense. But I always put it kind of in the back of my mind. And when you said that, it just if that is such a revolutionary paradigm shift that is not talked about. you know I still go to seminars today. i we'll ah They'll talk about infrared laser or red light lasers in cytochrome C oxidase, but they never talk about um how this charge is maintained and you put it so beautifully. So if you could just go through that process and explain to me.
00:15:54
Speaker
and ask us how that is. Oh, okay. Well, you you ask a multitude of questions. so Let's see how I can i can do. And if i if I omit answers to some of your questions, remind me, refresh me and um I'll do that.
00:16:09
Speaker
so um well So Gilbert Ling was talking about um the cell water as being like a liquid crystal. And you know crystals have a tendency, if they're pure, ah that if they're formed from some liquid that has contaminants, they'll push out the contaminants. Otherwise, you know you can't get a pure a pure crystal. and So with that theme in mind, um we were exploring to see if we could find a region, um and this is in a chamber, not not in the cell at first, a region that excluded molecules, particles,
00:16:54
Speaker
um and And we succeeded the first try. i I don't know how lucky. We're usually not so lucky. So we had a chamber. The chamber was filled with water, and we put little particles in microspheres. That was the first experiment. Just tiny little spheres, one micrometer in diameter, which then were suspended in the water.
00:17:15
Speaker
And then we immersed in that water a small gel. um And we had we had some idea that the the gel might could be a good place to start. um But it doesn't matter. We later substituted various polymers, biological surfaces, and such. And and they they give you a similar result. But the result was this.
00:17:42
Speaker
um um the particles were, pretty work or the water that surrounded the gel on all sides was particle-free. We could watch the microspheres getting pushed out ah on ah on all sides. And that's why we began to call it exclusion zone because it included, also easy is easy to remember, exclusion zone easy. So that made sense to us. It was a mistake because Later, we found um we found so many features and properties of this water that had no microspheres that we began calling it fourth phase water because because not nothing that we imagined was similar um to ordinary liquid water in in the subsequent measurements. so so that's how That's how it all began. and then
00:18:36
Speaker
An important ah critical, I think, critically important finding ah was that this zone, this EZ, or fourth phase water, I use those terms interchangeably, um the EZ water had negative charge. Now, this was a real surprise. And what we we did in the experiment, because I had some experience using the linked Gerard, the same linked microelectrodes, he invented them, where you can stick into a cell, for example, measure the electrical potential, pull it out again, and the cell would be still be alive. they're They're kind of glass tubes that come to a sharp point. and You can stick it in, make your measurement. And so I was curious, you know, we had the lab, we had the apparatus, why not measure it?
00:19:26
Speaker
And i I was actually pretty certain that we wouldn't find anything because if you start with liquid water, which we started with, um ah How could you wind up with a region that has negative charge? It doesn't make sense. where Where does the negativity come from? And so we thought after we found that the easy was commonly, almost always, there was an exception, negatively charged, then there must be a region of positive charge because they have to add up to zero, right? Right.
00:20:00
Speaker
um and ah And we found that the region just beyond the exclusion zone, which has negative charge, has positive charge. Which is the bulk water, right? The bulk of bulk water. Right. Yeah, ordinary liquid water. We call it bulk water. Yeah. Yeah. It has positive charge. and And so, you know, a little bit of head scratching. This is like a battery. You've got negative on one region, positive in another region.
Challenging Traditional Cellular Energy Models
00:20:33
Speaker
um and and And to to demonstrate this, we we demonstrated in multiple experiments, but but the one that maybe catches your eye is we put one electrode in the negative, one electrode in the positive, and if that's like a battery, an energy source, it should current should flow to a load, and the load was an LED lamp, and voila, it lit the lamp. So it means, it's proof of principle that you can actually extract electrical energy ah um from water yeah from from water, which you know I think is is pretty interesting and and leads to a question of, can you scale this up, which we haven't attempted yet, but that's something for the future. So so ah the question is, well, gee, you know if if the easy water, the creation of easy water creates a battery,
00:21:30
Speaker
ah Where does the energy come from? You can't create something from from nothing. According to one of the sort of ah laws laws of physics to which I abide, I mean this particular one, not all,
00:21:46
Speaker
um that that that you can actually convert one The only way you can create energy is to draw it from another form of energy. so A form of energy gets trans transformed like the electric light ah bulb. so It's electrical energy that transforms into visible light and heat.
00:22:09
Speaker
ah right and so So I was wondering, ah we were wondering, you know where the hell does the energy come from? You can't take a chamber and plug it into a receptacle in the wall. um you know so So where does it come from? And I couldn't figure it out. um and We couldn't figure it out. It seemed rather nebulous. And then one day, it was an undergraduate. I think he was about 18 years old, um fairly naive. but um He was doing an experiment with the same sort of chamber that I described to you. um and and I don't know whether either he was awfully curious or maybe bored or something, but he noticed a gooseneck lamp sitting next to him to his right. um and He took the lamp and he shined it on the chamber.
00:23:00
Speaker
and And the region that was illuminated, the he could look at it easy and it grew by a factor of three times. you know and im Impressive. So he called me called me in and I went in and i you know I thought to myself, my goodness Eureka, this guy has has found the energy. It's it's light energy.
00:23:24
Speaker
um And I'm not so sure if he realized or realizes how profound his accidental discovery was. But so we went ahead and did more experiments, you know, to to first confirm that what he says is correct. And secondly, to to investigate which wavelengths of light are important.
00:23:49
Speaker
And we found um ah we we ah we scanned through at the short end, ultraviolet, short wavelength end, the medium one, the visible spectrum, and then a long wavelength and ah infrared.
00:24:06
Speaker
and And we found that ah UV had no effect. ah nothing noticeable. The visual spectrum, throughout the spectrum, no effect except somewhat when we got to the reds. And then um when we got to infrared, it was like gangbusters. ah it It had a a tiny amount of of infrared light at 3 micrometer wavelength ah produced. we could We could get an expansion under the right conditions of like 10 times.
00:24:39
Speaker
ah for very weak light. so So we drew the conclusion that the energy comes from a light, in particular infrared wavelengths. The physicists refer to that whole spectrum as light and not just the light that we can detect with our eyes. So yeah, so it comes from light, which in retrospect you know is not unexpected because plants do exactly the same thing. They take light, step one in the photosynthetic process,
00:25:07
Speaker
is is the division of ah water molecules into H plus and OH minus, which is essentially the same as what we found. eight So it's not it's not a great surprise. In fact, various considerations lead us to think that the processes are actually the same.
00:25:25
Speaker
and and that photosynthesis at step one is actually it was the nature's most efficient way of creating everything that I've just described. um Now, i I might interject something you didn't ask, but how is it possible that negative and positive charges can be separated? And a colleague who was in the photosynthesis field told me that I mean, they the plus and minus want to come back together. That's all they want to do. So that would annihilate any separation. And a colleague in the photosynthesis field alerted me to the fact that that issue has never been addressed by the photosynthesis people.
00:26:10
Speaker
So, we've addressed it, and and the answer um is and it appears in the fourth phasebook. The answer is that the EZ is actually a matrix a very dense matrix.
00:26:25
Speaker
and it's negatively charged and of course the positive charges are free in the water and they want desperately to enter that matrix but they can't because the matrix is so dense and and and it's a it's a the structure is a series of sheets and each sheet um is hexagonally pile up one another giving you um a a zone that is pretty large. And if you look this way, I mean, if you look at right angles to one of those sheets, you find that it's a honeycomb structure, the hexagons. And each sheet is slightly displaced from the previous one. It builds that way. So in order for... Go ahead, have you got a picture of that? So you're saying that it's actually a physical barrier to the closeted
00:27:19
Speaker
Yes, exactly. It can't get in, so they're kept separate. Yeah. I didn't ever realize that. Well, I think that's a fascinating concept. It might not have been so explicit, but it turns out to be fundamental because plus and minus don't ever want to be separated from one another. That's, I guess, the most elementary of physical principles that we can think of. So anyway,
00:27:48
Speaker
now The battery doesn't dissipate then because of that physical charge until mean you know like a battery will necessarily dissipate. But this battery, if the positive can't come in, it's basically going to hold its charge. It does hold its charge. But you know like everything else ah in the ideal case, of course, it should hold its charge forever. But you know nothing is ideal. And and ah and we find that you know for like a day or so, um I mean over a period of ah a day or 12 hours or whatever, um it it begins to lose its charge. and and we We never measured specifically the time constant of it, but it's not ideal.
00:28:32
Speaker
and um you know um some Some charges, I guess, do find their way in. There may be defects in that easy lattice through which charges can can move slowly. I don't know. We haven't investigated that particular point, but but it's not the ideal case. In the ideal case, you're absolutely right. and So that that lattice has very unique qualities, and one of them is a semiconductor-type quality.
00:29:04
Speaker
um And you know the maybe you can expound on that but because I think that that lattice work is key to how the that fourth phase water works, is that correct?
00:29:16
Speaker
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by is key. I mean, it's from what we deduced. It's a fact. Of course, you know, we may be wrong. And then maybe it's not a fact. Maybe it's completely erroneous. But what I meant to say earlier is that that principle that you need something to prevent the recombination of all those positive charges out there. and This fits. When we came to this structure, we didn't realize that I didn't realize that that was an important feature. keeping keeping so There needs to be a method of keeping those positive charges at bay. Otherwise, they'll just rush right in. and
00:29:57
Speaker
and recombine. it That's something that many people have, I mean, few people have really thought about. It's central. It's absolutely critical. So, I mean, I'm not sure. Maybe I've gotten your question. but oh No, no, that's great. And and this this um exclusion zone water, fourth phase water is always next to a protein hydrophilic surface. Is that correct? No. know So that no No, other surfaces do just fine if they're hydrophilic. It doesn't it doesn't need to be a protein or a nucleic acid surface, it could be anything, which which means that we're talking about something that exists not only in the cell, but all throughout nature. Whenever you have a hydrophilic surface, and not all of them do it, but we're beginning to understand why, but most of them do, and and you have infrared energy,
00:30:52
Speaker
um It's going to build all over the world. It doesn't doesn't matter. and you know so One of the issues before you ready to jump in, maybe that's what you're going to ask me about infrared energy, where does it come from? um Well, infrared and were you going to ask that question?
00:31:10
Speaker
and okay i mean Obviously, we get it from external sources, but is it from the in the in the body too? It's in the body too, because you know in infrared is actually the source of heat. Infrared energy is a more fundamental um attribute then than temperature. it's The infrared creates the temperature. So um so in your body, inside your ear your body, you're metabolizing and the metabolic pathways generate heat. And so that heat is available for use throughout your body. Externally, um there are ample amounts of it. First of all, from the sun, about it was either 49 or 51%
00:31:57
Speaker
of the energy from sunlight that reaches us is in the infrared region. and That's why the sun feels warm, but it's not just the sun. um it's Everything is that absorbs energy is radiating infrared energy out. so If you were to turn off all the lights in in your in your room so it's completely dark, you could see nothing.
00:32:21
Speaker
and ah Your cell phone camera can record nothing. It's really dark. Now, if you substitute it, instead of using an ordinary camera, if you substitute an infrared camera, which is pretty much the same as an ordinary camera, except the sensor is not sensitive to visible wavelengths, but it's sensitive to infrared wavelengths. You get a beautiful image of everything from the microphone to the picture behind you to the doorknob. I will.
00:32:50
Speaker
um And that's realized it's ubiquitous. Yeah, it's ubiquitous. Because if it if it were not generating energy that reaches the camera, the camera would record nothing. And that's why the military uses it. you know they They use it ah routinely as a nightlight to check out the enemy's tanks and artillery and what what have you at night, because they can see what what there is. So it means that this energy is all around us.
00:33:21
Speaker
And if it's all around us, then it's available, and which means that if you have the right kind of hydrophilic surface, not just proteins, yes, of course, proteins and nucleic acids, ah and but but other, ah so we've tried maybe 50 of them in different surfaces. ah and And almost all, a few exceptions, build um this easy. so so So in the cell, of course, there are solids in the in the cell.
00:33:51
Speaker
and And most of the surfaces of proteins, there are some um regions of the protein surface that ah maybe are exception to the rule, but mostly it's charged hydrophilic ah surfaces on the proteins. So, you know, one idea that we have no evidence for this, but a speculation is that the protein structure is designed so that it can build this kind of water. And so inside the cell,
00:34:23
Speaker
um Inside the cell, it's full of nucleating surfaces that that can build easy water. And the cell is filled with easy water. but is there a is there Is there a reciprocal event where that energy source from this easy water is responsible for some of the protein folding, you know the the reactions that happen with these nucleic acids? Because you know they need an energy source And protein folding is an essential element. So are they driving, is that process driving energy from the this process, do you think? You you ask such good questions. ah Yes, the answer the answer is yes. So the second half of of the book that um that Ling didn't like, and Sells, Gels, and the Angels of the Light, the second ah part addressed exactly that question.
00:35:21
Speaker
um and and we we And the answer is similar to what you're alluding to, that if you have if you have a cell with, as Gilbert Ling calls it, structured water, we call it easy water, fourth phase water, you know, it's like a crystal and not much can happen inside of a crystal, a liquid crystal. ah Extraneous molecules can't move around because they can't get in, um you know.
00:35:48
Speaker
and so It's difficult to understand how the cell could work. and It occurred to me, and I did some res research and into this, that the cell needs to undergo some kind of transformation. and and What we found and reported in that book in five or six different chapters, you know I investigate ah investigated various tissues, and it turns out for each one of these important cell types, there's evidence that what happens is that the cell undergoes what's called a phase transition. so in the and and and In the quiescent state when the cell is not doing what it's designed to do, like in a muscle it's not contracting and a secretory cell, the cell is not secreting, et cetera,
00:36:33
Speaker
um it the The whole cell transforms from this kind of liquid crystal environment with proteins embedded in this. though The protein surfaces are actually creating the water. um And and ah um so so that's, ah how should I put it?
00:36:56
Speaker
and that um That's the way it it it actually forms, how this easy water forms. Now, now I've forgotten where where I'm headed with this question. i Well, we're we're headed to, you know, eventually this negative charge is responsible for a lot of metabolic functions. And you have alluded to the fact that it's responsible for the negative. All cells have to maintain a negative charge.
00:37:28
Speaker
and so And I think you mentioned that it was like negative 60 millivolts or something like that. that And and you know the common thought is that this negative charge was and completely um done by the ah sodium potassium pump. So what you described was that this negative charge that's induced by infrared light gets into the cell to maintain its negative charge. And the question I have
00:37:59
Speaker
for you is let's say as we're aging, we're not exposed to enough
Resistance to New Scientific Ideas
00:38:05
Speaker
infrared light, you know does the sodium potassium pump,
00:38:10
Speaker
um you know what percentage of your thought is is is the negative charge from the exclusion zone water versus the sodium potassium pump and does it change as we age and we become less metabolic like you know efficient You know, cause every, there's so much, so much of our pharmaceutical industry is geared towards this pump mechanism and they're completely missing the concept that infrared light and your concept of this negative charge, like the battery you're talking about is responsible. So my question, well, if you could just expound on how this negative charge maintains the, how this gets into the cell, maintains it,
00:38:57
Speaker
and what role the sodium potassium pump then does play. Sure, sodium, in short, sodium potassium pump doesn't exist. There is certainly a protein there that is thought to to be responsible, but ah there's ah evidence, ah a half dozen pieces of evidence that simply don't fit beyond what ah Gilbert Ling talked about that so much of the so much of the energy was used to power
00:39:30
Speaker
from the cell is used to power just the sodium pump. ah you know and but But there are more. You could you could take you could take a cell um and punch a large hole in the membrane, um and and and the cell doesn't doesn't care.
00:39:49
Speaker
um you know and um so um and this is This is a process process what's it called, where you put new DNA, electroporation. So you take the cell, you expose it to ah electric current. I can't remember how much electrical current um And it creates ah holes and um on the surface of the cell, or you might say the membrane of the cell. um and And through this giant hole, obviously, small ions can pass as as they like. But the cell remains perfectly normal. And the test for that is if you wait one day after you create the holes as much as one day, you can do it the experiment right away. but
00:40:41
Speaker
The hole has been open for one day, and you put new DNA outside, and the new DNA, big molecule, gets expressed because, I mean, the cell expresses ah the new protein corresponding to that DNA, which means so which means that the DNA was able to penetrate through that opening, um um and and everything remains absolutely normal in in the cell. Another one,
00:41:06
Speaker
um um These are you know simple observations. um take ah Take a raw egg. you know Cytoplasm um is the egg white. um and you know you You can see right away that you know it's a gel. It's not ah something like it's not a liquid.
00:41:30
Speaker
and and sir and and another you know you you can We have done it and others have done it. Take a gel that's similar to the inside of the cell ah and stick the electrode in, one in, one out, and you measure the same pretty much electrical potential as you do in the cell.
00:41:54
Speaker
Now, if ah if you can get the same result in something that looks like the cytoplasm, no membrane, no pumps, no channels, then it becomes awkward to say that the result is the result of it a pump of some sort. Because if the pump is in the membrane, this has no membrane, but you get the same result. so So those are just a few of the considerations. And I think that biological thinking has gone awry.
00:42:22
Speaker
There's no such thing as a pump. All the electrical potential can be attributed to the presence of negatively charged EZ water. that's that That is such an amazing, I cannot tell you how that should hit every scientist. and Because, I mean, I've been to a seminar just this year where they still, it's all sodium potassium pump. There's no mention, every textbook to this day There's, I don't know of any textbooks that really attribute that negative charge to the process you're describing, and yet you've disproved that. But, you know, I think you alluded, and I asked you, why is science so resistant to this? And this is the whole purpose of my podcast is because, you know, science is so resistant to change sometimes when it's so blatant
00:43:22
Speaker
And you've got proof. And I don't want to put words in your mouth. um And I think it's because you know that's made you sort of the rebel in this process. And there's not much money in your process. But if you could expound on your thoughts on how why it's so hard to get your concept you know accepted in the general realm right now in this day and age.
00:43:48
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's true. In the general realm, it's ignored. On the other hand, it's very popular among people who are sort of alternative thinkers or health practitioners. the and the The book, I guess I have to boast a little bit. If you look on Amazon, um the reviewer ratings, there there are more than 700 reviewer ratings, and and the score, a perfect score would be 5.0, and the score it has is 4.9. So I've never seen i've never seen even even the lectures of Richard Feynman, which are so popular,
00:44:32
Speaker
The book, our book has a higher score. so So it is popular among some people, but not others. And the reason, I'll explain now, the reason at least I think, and so if you start with New York Times, it was ah about a year ago that they addressed this question about um about ah revolutionary science. And they had a plot on on the x-axis was time.
00:44:57
Speaker
ah in the year the particular year and on the y-axis was a number of, I don't know if revolutionary is the word they use, but people who are challenging current current thinking and the graph looked like a downward slope from 1960 or something down to today and there was very little today and and ah they didn't really address the question of why but they just I think I at least I have a hypothesis why and and let me
00:45:34
Speaker
um Let me present it ah to you as a ah kind of provocative story. Suppose, which and i like I like to tell, suppose, I mean, I can look out my window from where I am now and i can I can look at Lake Washington. It looks flat. And and because it looks flat, I can surmise that the earth must be flat. um And everybody could see and they look at the ocean, it looks flat, as far as you can see.
00:46:03
Speaker
ah And so the whole world thinks that that um that the Earth is flat. But you, being a curious and ah inventive guy, um you start thinking and you say, well, wait a second. I've seen images from satellites and I can see the curvature.
00:46:23
Speaker
and i've And the satellites go round and round. And I've seen pictures taken from the moon, and it looks like you know the Earth is like ah like a disk. So i I don't think it's it's round. And you decide this issue is so critically important that you'd like to devote your life to studying it, to to really check out your your hypothesis. So you spend a couple of months putting together a grant proposal, ah being sure not not to antagonize anybody, the opposition, ah so to speak.
00:46:57
Speaker
And and it you deliver it to either the National national Science Foundation or and NIH, National Institutes of Health, and the gatekeeper receives your application. And he says, Scott, ah god who i don't I don't know this guy, but i I read through and I see this idea is so revolutionary that um if I do my job properly,
00:47:24
Speaker
um um I'm going to recruit the most experienced and prominent reviewers to make sure, is this guy a crackpot or does he have something real?
00:47:36
Speaker
So who are these people who are recruited? They're the people you're challenging. They're the champions of the flat earth idea. When the New York Times wants to to come in and investigate little bumps on the flat earth, they're the people who are asked to comment, right? And we all have egos.
00:47:57
Speaker
You know, you do, I do, and we don't like to be displaced. and We have ideas and you know we we can think that we're open scientists, but you know and we we do have those those egos, some some more than others, and we don't like to be dismissed. So you can imagine the reaction, the the response of the reviewers.
00:48:20
Speaker
you know If you're right, they're wrong. They don't want to be wrong. That's exactly the way the grant system is built. and Every organization I know, except one that we actually devised, Institute for Venture Science,
00:48:36
Speaker
uh operates on that principle you got to get the experts and so anybody who's challenging the experts they won't succeed you know so i think that's the reason um why what you said about there were being a real dearth of of genuinely revolutionary ideas there are many ideas out there that actually don't fit the evidence um like the sodium potassium pump by the way there are now more than a thousand pumps they all need energy So, but you know, yeah or a putative pumps, I should say. ah Yeah, okay, so I think that's the reason. The reason is the grand system. The grand system is designed in a way
00:49:18
Speaker
Inadvertently, you know I think some politicians must have designed it 60 or 70 years ago. You've got to get the experts to judge whether an application is a good one or not a good one. You need some mechanism, but it's because naturally,
00:49:36
Speaker
The ones who are chosen are the ones who are under threat by any revolutionary proposal, so the proposal won't succeed. and that's That's been the case. I know in in my own case, I've given up.
00:49:49
Speaker
in order and i In order for a proposal that I would write, for example, the reviewer um If he doesn't know or she doesn't know anything about fourth-phase water, they're obliged to either read the book or somehow learn about it. And who has the time? These are busy people. And um and and so the way the system works is there has to be a threshold of real interest from several of the reviewers in order for the application to be discussed. And mine don't get to that stage. I spend a month or two
00:50:26
Speaker
preparing the application, going over every word and every phrase, and they don't even discuss it. I can't tell you how demoralizing that is. I understand the system. They're trying to save time because there are so many applications and everybody's busy. It has to change. and well I don't like to get into politics. Is there hope that it will change?
00:50:53
Speaker
i i knew about this and You know, um it it could change. um It depends. I know if RFK Jr. gets the position that he's been nominated for, ah things will definitely change. I know views are mixed about him.
00:51:14
Speaker
um and um but But I think things are good. It's got to be better than the status quo. It's how better help going downhill year after year, where I think I read in terms of longevity, we're at number 49, this country. Imagine number 49. Yeah, well with the amount of money that we spent. Yeah. yeah with the amount It's incredible when you think about it. you know The one thing that I see is it you if if your ideas had a corporate product, that would probably
00:51:53
Speaker
you know, wake somebody up. But, you know, and the the one thing that I think your concept is possibly scalable because of this battery idea of water, and that would be a product that actually would, you know, that concept of scalability of this battery that we're talking about is probably where money could come from is, I don't know. But but yeah.
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah, out we've we've of course, we've we've thought of that. It's not it's not just ah the battery concept that we have a filtration concept that, in theory, ah this is very preliminary, could separate salt from ocean water.
00:52:38
Speaker
um and Obviously, these these are if if they work, um ah that there's going to be major breakthroughs. But frankly, I don't want to get into any commercial enterprise. It's just not me. um I'm focused on the science. The money has no appeal. ah Someone puts a million dollars in my left pocket. I'm not going to toss it ah away. But but you know for me,
00:53:05
Speaker
finding truth in nature is so compelling. ah I don't want to do anything else. However, you know if other people want to take the ideas and and and go with them in a commercial enterprise, I'm all for it. So I i welcome inquiries, and and there have been some inquiries, and I think we we may be getting going on on some of these, and you're right. If if it's a commercially useful product, a breakthrough or something, it will alert a lot of people. I'm not a good mark. I just think that our research sphere is currently profit-driven, product-driven, corporate-driven in a lot of cases. absolutely that's why That's why the basic science is that you are proposing
00:53:55
Speaker
revolutionary ideas don't get traction because it's not in that market of producing a product. you're You're talking about basic physiology 101. That should be a textbook. When people go to school and start their training, they should understand that it's not the sodium potassium pump, but this charge separation. And then that is a basis for all of these other brought you know protein folding, nucleic acids, doing what they need to do, and but it's not taught because of this fundamental flaw in our system. and What's going to happen to your lab when you're not there? you know you know but You're researching this water, but you've got this lab in Washington.
00:54:43
Speaker
you know Can it keep going? Well, I'm i' planning to live to 120. My natural path told me that she's going to keep me going strong until age 120. I've got a few years left, ah provided I exercise enough. And this is a limitation, the exercise, because i'm I'm so busy writing chapters and books. I've got four books pending, four of them. ah Tell me about those.
00:55:13
Speaker
Okay. um yeah Yeah, I didn't didn't really answer your question yet. and i' going it up right yeah What's pending? Well, the first first one that's pending is the one here. And this is not the real cover. This is this is just a temporary placeholder.
00:55:37
Speaker
It's called Charged. And it's it's almost ready to send to the printer for the final version. My son is the artist, and he's a fantastic artist. And if you remember the fourth phase of Water Book, the one that's so popular, part of the popularity is because of his artwork. It's fantastic. And he's so easy to work with. it It's a delight. so So that's the first one. um And if you want to know something of the content, I can tell you.
00:56:08
Speaker
second I'm just curious what you're writing. Well, um ah let let me just mention the four of them and then if you if you want to ask us something specific, I'm more than happy to answer. The next book, which is complete and waiting for my son to start the artwork when he finishes the charge book, it's on the structure of the atom.
00:56:31
Speaker
Now, there's a structure that we all read about in the textbooks, along the theme that you're suggesting. But there are flaws in the reasoning and thinking of the model. And these are simple flaws, which I can go back to and tell you that even a middle school student can understand. nothing nothing And i I go on to create another model, um which actually is not too different from what what some of the chemists of the era. They didn't like this Bohr model, the solar system kind of model with the nucleus and the electrons in orbitals around. um and And it turns out, I found that after I drafted the book, that that one of the most prominent ones
00:57:24
Speaker
um of ah those chemists came up with his own idea. And it turns out his idea is very similar to what I'm proposing. So I felt I... i um you were validated ah Validating is nice. Yeah. So it was okay. Anyway, that book is ready. um It just needs a few illustrations and that it's coming next. The next book is about volcanoes and earthquakes.
00:57:50
Speaker
um Now, I'm not an expert in volcanoes, even though Mount St. Helens, which blew about 40 years ago, is practically in the neighborhood, the state of Washington. And as far as earthquakes are concerned, we get them all the time and projected sooner than rather than later is one of 9.1 magnitude. So there's a lot of interest in the Seattle area about earthquakes. So the question that i um I've not seen answered in in a satisfactory way is, where does the energy come from? So Mount St. Helens, it used to be a beautiful mountain, cone-shaped like Mount Fuji, yeah and the top quarter so blew off. And you can imagine the amount of energy that's required
00:58:41
Speaker
you know to blow blow it. and And you know in terms of volcanoes, somehow somehow it's thought that heat is somehow responsible. but But the idea of how heat can create something so powerful um never became clear. And so so i I'm proposing another idea, which I think fits the evidence pretty well.
00:59:09
Speaker
um about the energy and and the energy I think is the same for earthquakes and volcanoes. They're co-located for the most part, and i went like ah around the Ring of Fire where you've got lots of volcanoes, you have earthquakes occurring in the same same places. So the mechanism therefore is likely, not proof, likely to be the same.
00:59:32
Speaker
um Anyway, that book addresses it. And then another book, which I've just half first drafted, deals with the subject that interests you the most, the idea ah in biology that everything you read in the textbook is not necessarily right. And what i but I try to bring out, some of these issues, issues is that Just because it's in the textbook, you can't presume that it's necessarily right. Because the way textbooks go, if you're a publisher and you have two choices for, let's say, a physiology textbook, um if they still exist,
01:00:11
Speaker
um And one choice ah gives the conventional view, even if you think the conventional view is all wet, and another one gives a radical view, which one are you going to choose? Well, you're obviously going to choose the conventional one because you want to sell books, and which universities are going to subject their students, at least at the present time, to radical ideas. So they won't sell ah money again, and and therefore,
01:00:38
Speaker
um they're not going to do that. So you won't easily find books um written by, you know, standard publisher or published by standard and venues. They won't do it. There are some things that are emerging, though. For example, um I came into contact with a woman who teaches students, home schools, students,
01:01:04
Speaker
and And she fell in love with four-phase water. So she prepared a curriculum. No, she didn't fall in love with me. She fell in love with. And so she's written a curriculum, which is just about finished. I kind of helped to ah refine it. And it's going to be available soon for homeschooling, homeschooled students. And I don't know if it's going to take off or it's not going to take off. but um it's necessary to
01:01:36
Speaker
this area to expose youngsters to these ideas youngsters are really open to revolutionary ideas. They're not set in their ways. They they want to they want to find truth, at least most of them. So that endeavor could could be an inroad into wider publicity. and And also, the question that you asked earlier, when I'm 120 years old and in another realm ah somewhere, who's going to take over?
01:02:06
Speaker
and and um I don't know the answer to to that, but but there are many people who have gone through my lab, and there are now an increasing number of other laboratories who are pursuing this sort of thing. So I hope that someone will take over. And by the time I reach 120, if our lab has funding, that's the limiting factor. We will have done, I would hope,
01:02:35
Speaker
ah Most of the essential experiments um that are associated, of course, is never ending. Always, ideas need to new ideas come and they need to be tested and such. and And that's what we're doing. The lab is small now. It used to be, I used it almost consistently throughout my career, had seven or eight postdoctoral fellows.
01:03:01
Speaker
and almost and And undergraduate students in large numbers working in the lab, it almost became too much. um And now we have ah many fewer because because of funding issues. I was i was funded by a billionaire.
01:03:17
Speaker
guy who found our work and tapped me on the shoulder, I'd like to fund you. It wasn't exactly like that. but um and He funded us for four years with the understanding expressed in writing that he plans to fund me indefinitely unless he runs into some unexpected financial problem. Well, he ran into a a problem. and He gave me a year's notice saying that, unfortunately, in most of his assets are in large complexes. I'm not sure what, large buildings or shopping centers or something like this, and they're not easy to sell. and In order to fund us, you need cash. they they don't
01:03:59
Speaker
you know they They don't want a grocery store or something like that. You need money. so so He's been helping. to get and I was so thrilled to receive an email from him.
01:04:13
Speaker
um he said I'm not quoting his actual words, but he said, I've looked look back on my career. and And this guy was trained in physics and math. He was offered ah fellowships to study mathematical physics at Princeton and Berkeley and places like that, but he didn't didn't pursue that. um He wrote to me saying, I'm looking back at my career and and i I feel that what I'm most proud of is supporting your work.
01:04:48
Speaker
Love theater. That's so nice, that's so nice. That is wonderful that people do those things because of their nature of wanting to just improve society. That's exactly what he was doing. Yeah, it's it's finding truth is what he was yeah who was after. and And so I was pleased. So he's he's working to help me. We'll see if anything comes of it. Right now we're on a shoestring.
01:05:19
Speaker
So I want to go into one more topic before we get done here and is the idea of this structured water and memory and what your thoughts, how memory, you know, how this could be used for
Exploring Water Memory and Consciousness
01:05:37
Speaker
memory. And also if you intertwine any thoughts about consciousness and memory, you know, it's a fascinating, you know, there's a lot of debate and I don't know,
01:05:49
Speaker
You know, lately I've been just exploring some of the Penrose, Hammerhoff theories of consciousness. But, you know, I don't know if you could talk about water and memory just a little bit. I would love that.
01:06:05
Speaker
Okay, um well, I start with with evidence um ah for memory, and it runs the gamut from spiritualists to Nobel laureates studying this issue. The spiritualists who most of us, many of us know about, is Masaru Imoto, who passed 10 years ago.
01:06:25
Speaker
I attended the 10th anniversary memorial. I gave it a talk. It was in Salzburg, Austria. um And for for those who don't know about the topic, what he did was he took some water um um and put it on the table and projected his intention on the water. It's the main main thing he did.
01:06:50
Speaker
um And if he if he projected a positive intention like, I love you, um or you're beautiful, or something like this, and he froze the water and looked at the water that was the frozen, look at the crystals that formed, the ice crystals, they were beautiful. And if he focused negative attention on it, then they were ugly.
01:07:15
Speaker
Now, um and and he wrote a book, and a book became an over overnight bestseller, and millions were sold, and a lot of people were talking about it. It was 20 years ago. They produced another one but after his death about two years ago, and I was privileged to write a foreword to that book. um So the problem ah is you know among scientists, almost complete rejection.
01:07:43
Speaker
and And they rejected for for what might be considered a good reason, because he instead of projecting his intention on one container of water, he'd do 50.
01:07:56
Speaker
and Then he'd examine all 50 and he'd pick out the best one, the one that illustrated best what he wanted to show. No scientist would accept that as reasonable. It's right called cherry picking. ah and and His retort was, well, i'm I'm not a scientist, I'm a spiritualist, so I'm not bound by the scientific rules. so um But I'm not sure if you know Dean Radin, who revels in this sort of thing, a distinguished researcher whose science is is appreciated by many, um and a really objective guy. And they did a study, an independent study, and they found ah that that in in doing it the right way,
01:08:40
Speaker
um that um differences occurred and they occurred with statistical significance, the negative versus positive intention. So so there it appears that there is something to it, but you know no scientist worth his salt will ever say, yeah, I like that stuff or it's meaningful. Okay, the second one,
01:09:06
Speaker
is a guy named Jacques Benveniste. He was a high-level French scientist. He was working with cells called basophils. Basophils secrete histamine, if i if I have it right. and and They do it when the cell is specifically exposed to some antibodies. so Some guy came to Jacques' lab with like 50 people in the lab.
01:09:33
Speaker
and said, you know, I can get the same result if I take those antibodies and instead of pouring the antibodies or exposing the antibodies ah to the cell, I can dilute it and dilute it and dilute it as in homeopathic dilution. I could dilute it delete it ah diluted to the point where where there's none of the original, that all that's left is water and get the same result. You know, naturally, um you know, people,
01:10:05
Speaker
um um Understand that it seems it seems ridiculous. How is it possible that just ordinary water can retain that information or memory um So, he got a lot of blowback. His career was cut short by by um a ploy by the Nature editor who sent ah several peers, including himself, to the lab to look over what they were doing. And and one of those peers was a guy named um
01:10:42
Speaker
James Randi, who's known as, um um ah what's his title? I forgot. The Amazing Randi. He goes, well, he's passed right now. He was one of the peers, so to speak, who went to the lab. And another peer was from NIH. And he was in the Center for ah Scientific Integrity. In other words, he was a kind of detective to find out um ah what the tricks that some um you know ah unscrupulous scientists might might be perpetrating. So then the third one was the editor of Nature himself.
01:11:25
Speaker
And the greatest and magician who is famous for debunking the tricks of other magicians couldn't figure out what the trick was. um But they ah they suggested sloppy science and sloppy note-taking and stuff like that. And they in the journal Nature, that's what they wrote. And from they said that that water memory was a delusion.
01:11:50
Speaker
And from that, as you can imagine, it ruined the career of this important scientist, and he died prematurely. So so that's the second in instance.
01:12:03
Speaker
The third one involves Nobel Laureate, Luc Montagnier. Montagnier was a friend of this guy, and when Jacques Benvenist died, Luke decided he got his Nobel Prize for HIV for uncovering HIV. He started, he he wanted to continue the work of Jacques Benveniste because he thought highly of Jacques and he thought the work was, you know, it was worthwhile. So he came to our water conference which I organized annually. It's where up to number 17, I think, coming.
01:12:41
Speaker
And he came for a decade. He came every year and presented his results. And his results are astonishing but confirmed in three other laboratories. ah So what he what he's his experiment was um He took two vials, and both vials were factory sealed. I mean, there was no possible escape of chemicals from one vial to the other vial. He put those vials in proximity of one another, and the first one contained DNA, a short strand of DNA.
01:13:20
Speaker
ah suspended in the buffer, an aqueous buffer of water, basically. um And the next one contained pure water. You have them next to, near one another, not touching on anything, and they applied a kind of generic energy, 50 hertz or 60 hertz.
01:13:38
Speaker
And after a day or so, this one got removed and he had this and his hypothesis was that the water is storing information from the DNA. So you don't need this anymore. So he took the water that had been ah putatively infused with information and he used the PCR method, the the one that's used for COVID all the time.
01:14:00
Speaker
to amplify the amount of DNA. So we got the new DNA and its sequence matched the original DNA that had been sitting near the water. So I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but ah he found it and he presented an evidence for this.
01:14:18
Speaker
and our conference So, I mean, the bottom line, I'm just giving you a kind of capsule of the people who studied information in water and And the results are positive, ranging from a spiritualist to a Nobel laureate and many others in in between. As I said, Montignier's work has been confirmed by two Italian groups published and one Chinese group. That was as of a year ago.
01:14:47
Speaker
There may be even more now. I'm not sure. It's astonishing, you know. if What is your theory about how water can store memory and information? Okay, so my hypothesis, I guess, it's not risen to a theory yet or maybe never will. hu i I don't know. So um um the first one is that pure Pure liquid water cannot store any information. The molecules are randomly disposed and they're bouncing around a fierce number of times ah per second or even per femtosecond. They're doing this sort of thing. and
01:15:34
Speaker
and And so on the other hand, EZ water um ah that has the same capability as as ah a transistor made of silicon. ah and let Let me explain explain that. And so so it's possible that the information is stored in EZ water. And we found sometimes that um that if if you put electromagnetic energy or current into into water, um the water transitions. It's enough to transition um some of that water into easy water. So easy water, ah ah let let me say, so if you look at a
01:16:17
Speaker
at a computer memory, like a memory stick or something like that. it's ah It consists of ah a layer, a flat layer of transistors laid out in a and a grid, a perfect grid and at each point. and like There you go. ah Thank you. Okay. so So you can leave that up for a moment while while I talk. Yeah. Okay. um So each one of these blue ones is a transistor. And the transistor has two possibilities, either on or off or zero or one or whatever. And it's the distribution of zeros and ones throughout this this array that stores the information. So the question
01:17:00
Speaker
Arising is is, well, what about easy water? Does it have similar properties? So the two properties that you need, one is a regular array, and the second is that the principal component of the array needs to have at least two states. Do you have a ah picture of a hexagonal um easy?
01:17:23
Speaker
I think I do here. Hold on.
01:17:36
Speaker
Yes, okay yeah that's exactly right. yeah so so You see that, as I mentioned earlier, you have a substrate at the bottom, a gel or polymer or biological surface.
01:17:52
Speaker
and It builds layers of easy water. You can see four or five layers there. If you take one layer, you can see that um all of the hydrogens and oxygens that are in it are regularly arrayed, not rectilinear, like in in the transistor array, but in a regular array. and so The question arose, is it possible that either the oxygen or the hydrogen has two states. Well, it turns out it's not the hydrogen, but the oxygens ah contain actually not two, but five oxidation states. and This is standard chemistry. um and You'll see it in in textbooks. They're called oxidation states or charge states.
01:18:35
Speaker
So it means that each oxygen in in the array has a capability of of not just two but five different states. So the two the two conditions are satisfied the same as occurs in in your standard computer memory.
01:18:52
Speaker
Except in this case, by the way, it's at the atomic scale rather than the transistor scale, and we computed that if if it turns out that this is actually a substrate that could be used in in computers eventually,
01:19:08
Speaker
That the computer could be the size of a pinhead because information is so dense in this so that's where i i presume that the energy is stored and if you put it up once again please the same. Yeah so you can imagine.
01:19:25
Speaker
and any one of those oxygens, which appears at the vertices, um you have a distribution of those. and they but Just like the zeros and ones, you have um you have the oxygens at different oxidation states.
01:19:42
Speaker
and so Theoretically, it has the capacity to store information in the same way that your memory stick has that capability. And of course, we're pursuing that and we'd like to get Microsoft or one Intel or someone like that interested in this because if it if it turns out to be valid, then it's a bonanza for for one of those. Well, i it it actually takes the scale even smaller than our scale
01:20:13
Speaker
that exists now. And that's allowing greater computing power and faster computing power. So you think that as we age that this process, and you know as we age, we don't produce this easy water and there's a lot of negatives, such as inflammation and you know lifestyle. and you know that that That is part of why memory in the brain is You know, as we age, not as efficient, um you know, it's, you know, use your hypothesis that, you know, that this has a lot to do with memory and human brain.
01:20:54
Speaker
Well, not only memory, but possibly loss of memory, dementia. yeah ah you know i had Until few weeks ago, I had thought that dementia was irreversible. It turns out it's reversible. And and um and the methods that are used to reverse, the ones I've heard of, are all methods used to build easy water. So it may be that you know as as we age, our brain cells ah become deficient in easy water. and And we have evidence, I could go over it, but it's a little bit involved, that but a lot of pathology... So just briefly, does that involve...
01:21:38
Speaker
you know, infrared light. what occur yeah yeah therapies in in about One of them is infrared light. Someone shared with me his experience on a patient using infrared light. The patient had dementia, and after a number of treatments, there was no more dementia. oh And the other one that's better documented, this was just, a you know, N equals one.
01:22:03
Speaker
experience, but another one is about hyperbaric oxygen therapy. Do you know about that? you know you get into it well Actually, I do, and i but I think a better way to do oxygen therapy is actually carbon dioxide therapy. and Because when you increase the level of carbon dioxide, it increases the bores effect, releasing the oxygen. and my my My problem with hyperbaric oxygen therapy is that it Yeah, you can get this increase oxygen temporarily, but it actually trains the bodies, the hemoglobin, to hold onto the oxygen more over time. so So I actually, in my office, and personally I've been doing my own, you can do it through breath work, you know holding your breath, increasing your carbon dioxide, but it it does, you can actually measure tissue perfusion of oxygen by increasing your carbon dioxide because it stimulates this bores effect
01:23:03
Speaker
to release the oxygen from the hemoglobin molecule. So yeah, you get a temporary, ah the hyperbaric, you get this temporary increase in oxygen. But i my thinking is that in the long run, you are actually training the body to retain it.
01:23:20
Speaker
OK, so that's ah one one point of view. But you know there's evidence that it works. ah My former postdoc, um who knows every paper that's ever been published, he sent me four papers that demonstrated that the patient goes into the hyperbaric oxygen a chamber and and and it's reversed. So ah yours may be a better way to do it, but um I think that it's They probably both have valid that ah this is a guess. My guess is that long term, the CO2 might be better. The short term.
01:23:59
Speaker
that the oxygen hyperbaric is better, but I don't know. you know it's just yeah i don't know leader it's not It's not exactly my field, but but we we did experiments and about hyperbaric oxygen therapy. One of my students did it. What happens if you change from 20 percent oxygen ah to a larger value, which is what what happens in the hyperbaric oxygen. germany yeah and it builds we found or He found it builds easy water. and What about higher pressure? It also builds easy water independently, those two ah factors. so When you combine them, you're going to get a large increase or substantial increase in easy water.
01:24:45
Speaker
And if the paradigm that we're suggesting, I'm suggesting, is correct, that that if you have not enough easy water, which the cell needs to do what it what it does and supply energy, um and then the obvious therapy is to increase the amount of easy.
01:25:08
Speaker
and and Both of those expedients that I told you, the infrared and the hyperbaric oxygen therapy, do exactly that. I'm kind of wondering, thinking of that, if if people are aware of of these ideas, that you can reverse it. It's just a matter of dehydration in the brain. just just the same i mean the eat the easy water that fills the cell is essentially cellular hydration, right? And in any organ, and we have evidence for this of various organs, is deficient in EZ. It means the electrical potential, the magnitude is small, if you have not much EZ. If you have a lot of EZ, then the negative electrical potential is big. And so there are... So that's how you can measure that's how you can measure it in the brain?
01:26:00
Speaker
Well, I don't know if anybody's measured it in the brain, but but ah I'm suggesting that brain cells, are you know a bunch of neurons and such, ah are not so different from kidney cells or liver cells or whatever. And in some of these tissues,
01:26:16
Speaker
I look back at evidence ah from 50 years ago when people were poking all kinds of cells. Cells were dysfunctional and pathological had small electrical potential, which means not much easy water ah because you need ah um You need those those surfaces to to to create ah protein surfaces to create build the easy water. and When you get older, and there are some mutations and not everything is the same as when you were five years old.
01:26:48
Speaker
ah And those cells having pathological ones, having small magnitude electrical potentials means there's not so much easy water and therefore they can't function. So if if that's ah the case in, say, the kidney or the liver, why might not it be the case in your brain?
01:27:10
Speaker
and the neurons or whatever else exists there. So that's why I was fascinated to hear that that um entities or procedures that that build easy water can reverse dementia. I would love to see a study of the carbon dioxide therapy and see if that does too, because I think it theoretically makes sense, but I don't know. So anyway, that might be a good research project.
01:27:41
Speaker
We've got more research projects than than we can handle. I've got a long list, but you know and and until we get substantial funding... um
01:27:54
Speaker
you know yeah yeah you need You need to pay the people who are doing the work. and um so It's standard. and you know Some people get millions um from from and from government sources. and Those are mostly people who are productive and well-recognized. But if you're an insurrectionist, I guess that word has been bandied around a lot. If you're an insurrectionist,
01:28:22
Speaker
um It's really an uphill battle. I spend a good deal of my time trying to ah get people interested. But i you know I'm no expert in marketing myself. This is ah this is a problem. though you know maybe You have a genuine essence that comes through that you are seeking knowledge for humanity's sake. And I think that's actually you know I think a lot of people can see that, and that's why you have so many positive reviews with your book, because it comes through, and when you listen to you, it comes through, and well thank you can tell that you have a passion for what you're doing, which is, you know, it it it shows. And so I just want to compliment you on that. Well, thank you so much. You're awfully generous, and i I really appreciate your comments.
01:29:21
Speaker
but can We can leave it here. I so appreciate you taking the time to do this for about an hour and a half in, which I think is about the attention span of most people with these podcasts. so you know I could ask you a million other questions, but I just i just appreciate people that have the genuine curiosity to think out of the box and ask questions. and That's kind of the purpose of what I want to do with this podcast is have people like you on that ask tough questions that challenge the narrative and maybe, you know, we're right or wrong. But, it you know, the questions I think are important.
01:30:02
Speaker
and You know, your sincerity in your books, your work is a legacy, and I just want to thank you for that. And thanks for coming along. Well, thank you Scott. Thank you for the great questions. That's not always the case, but in your case, it's really good because you've invested in the material and you understand it very well, maybe better than I do.
01:30:28
Speaker
No, I just have more questions now. Every time every time you bring up something, Ben is like, oh, we should you should do this research. you also anyway Frankly, I don't know how much physiology ah research is still you know our our university. they They got rid of the physiology department um and they integrated some of the people with a ah ah some genetic department or whatever. So physiology seems passé. On the other hand, it's so critically important that it's a terrible... It's what everything is based on. It's what everything's based on. So it's it's put in other curriculum, like I'm doing a neurology fellowship program and you know it's put in there, but it's not specifically, it's always just, you know,
01:31:19
Speaker
flattered in places. And so I think you're right. I'm not in the academic world anymore. and But you know the basic fundamentals that you're challenging are just revolutionary because everything is based on something else. And so you know your work showing this is fundamental to energy. I always say, you know really,
01:31:47
Speaker
The phenotypical expression of disease as we age can be associated with energy flux and voltage and energy gradients. And so you have to look at, well, where is it we have, we, where are the energy coming from and what gives us efficiency, you know? So, you know, you look at those two sides. And so if you can, if you can free up and get free energy from all these sources and you can make yourself more efficient at delivering these energy sources, that's kind of the equation for health.
01:32:17
Speaker
And so, you know, we look, we don't think about that large holistic concept anymore. We reduce everything to, and I always say the definition of a specialist is to somebody who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything there is to know about nothing at all. You know? Well put. So, so I mean, we become this reductionist idea of concept. And so we don't think of a macro picture about where is energy coming from?
01:32:47
Speaker
And how are we how are we delivering it efficiently? And then work on those two equations. yeah so Yep. You got it. yeah You got it. I wish there were more people like you around than we would progress much more. OK. Well, in my little world, I try to bring it. But thank you so much for all your time. I so appreciate it. OK. OK, take care. We'll see you. Take care. OK, bye-bye.