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Tony Fleecs Interview: DC's Deathstroke, Stray dogs, Marvel's The Thing, Local Man, Process
37 Plays2 months ago
Welcome to episode 1! Joining the show is comic book creator Tony Fleecs! We talk his process, what comics change his life most, DC Next Level Deathstroke the Terminator, Local Man from Image Comics, The Thing series from Marvel, and more!
Support Tony by visiting his website tonyfleecs.com
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the very first episode of From Script to Shelf, a comic book podcast. I am your host, Matthew Berggren. So I have been doing podcasting for the last several years. um I have a wrestling um related show called Wrestling Conversations where I've been doing lots of mostly interviews. So I've always kind dabbled in adding some comic content into that feed and I'm just kind of like this doesn't make sense to keep
Purpose and Guest Introduction
00:00:32
Speaker
adding this there. So I wanted to create a new show that is just about comics.
00:00:36
Speaker
um So that's where this this this idea came from. So the very first episode we have today is creator Tony Felice. So you may know Tony from several different um of his projects that he's worked on, including Feral, Stray Dogs, The Thing at Marvel, Local Man, My Little Pony, and many more. So he also has a new series at DC, Deathstroke the Terminator, that'll be coming out later this month. So we're going to talk about that
Interview with Tony Felice
00:01:02
Speaker
as well.
00:01:02
Speaker
So what I hope to get... um on this show is you know lots of creator interviews we're going to go into maybe some book reviews current and past some just weekly pickups things like that too but we're going to start with an interview and hope to add more of these as well so please enjoy this interview with creator tony fleece
00:01:22
Speaker
all right welcome back everybody for another episode so today joining the show is comic creator tony fleece tony how are you doing today hey i'm doing great it's a it's a busy time but i i have this Sunday and I'm excited I get to spend a part of it with you.
00:01:38
Speaker
On a wrestling podcast, I know absolutely nothing about wrestling. I always tell people. It's always the worst. It's always like I always tell people it's like the worst like wrestling podcast ever because I, you know I end up talking about other things and there's a big crossover with with wrestling and comics. So there are some people that do like both. So this episode is going to go on the wrestling feed, but also you're going to get your brand, a brand new feed just for you. So then we're to kind of start from there. So more comic centric. So hopefully we'll kind of reach both groups of people a little bit too, but.
00:02:08
Speaker
Well, it is a Sunday, and like you said, busy
Challenges in Comic Creation
00:02:10
Speaker
time for you. One thing that I'm always interested in, think part of this is what I do for for my work too, is how people kind of structure their time. Because you took more of an unconventional path of, you know, being a comic creator where it's, you're not working a nine to five. There's probably actually a lot more work than just what a nine to five would require too. So what is a day like today where you you have some time and like, what does your normal work structure look like?
00:02:33
Speaker
Uh, well, at this point, it's just sort of, I'm putting out fires. I feel like, you know, I have all of the books that I'm working on are up on their feet. So I'm not doing as much, uh, like development stuff. It's just like this issue needs to be written or this issue needs to be outlined or this issue needs to be, uh, laid out or lettered. In some cases, there's always some covers need to be drawn.
Balancing Creative and Business Aspects
00:03:00
Speaker
There's always some sort of, something for me to be doing and so i'm just basically going to whatever is the most pressing thing and uh and and taking care of that so like the minutes before i got on with you i was working on feral number 22 which is like in production half written and the hat like tones drawn all his backgrounds for for half of it but the other half i'm i'm working on right now so And then Trish is about to start drawing the cats on her part of it.
00:03:34
Speaker
So, yeah, I'm just just moving things forward. And then after I get off the phone with you, I have a ah planning meeting with the editor of Feral for Feral 23. And then to next week, I'm at a DC planning thing for for most of the week.
00:03:51
Speaker
Sure. So yeah, things are, things are busy too. And when you were, when you're writing, I think that's the thing too. When people do create our own books too, they think, I mean, I don't think that people always think about that. There's so much more that goes into that too. And like you're running your own business essentially, not just writing the books too. So what are some of those extra things that if you do write a book for, you know, a company like image where it is creator owned, where you maybe don't have the structure. So there's a, you own the book, but there's a lot of extra responsibilities. What are those types of things that people maybe don't really know about? Well, it's, you know,
00:04:22
Speaker
I do a lot of like retailer outreach, I do a lot of like social media promotion, um and then have, like i said, we have an editor on Feral, but it is a lot of like keeping up with the team and making sure that everybody has their stuff in enough time to get it done.
00:04:45
Speaker
um And so it is it is like running a a little small business that is just in the business of making this one comic. But like ah this past week, I was at all week long at Comics Pro, which is like a retailer industry conference. And that is literally just me going there and saying like, here's what's coming up in Feral.
00:05:03
Speaker
Here's the next book I have coming out later this year from Image. Deathstroke comes out like FOCs on Monday and just sort of like making sure all the the retailers are aware of.
00:05:14
Speaker
ah of what I'm up to, Deathstroke I don't have to worry about as much because DC is a giant company and they have a whole department that's in charge of telling retailers that this book's coming out. And also the retailers have known about Deathstroke for, you know, 40 years.
00:05:31
Speaker
And so makes it a little easier. Yeah. i don't have to do all that groundwork. Whereas with Feral, it's, you know, where this is year three of Feral is starting. in march and so it's just a matter of like checking in letting people know that you know if you're selling this in your shop here's ways you could be selling more of it we're doing exciting new things and so yeah it there's a lot of uh just sort of like self-promotion and pounding the pavement type stuff that Eventually, you know, I see other Image Comics creators who but once they've established themselves more, they can they sort of that that work, either the people at Image can just handle it or it sort of does itself.
Time Management and Inspiration
00:06:12
Speaker
I think unless unless that's just like a fantasy that I i project onto other people. But for now, at least I'm i'm doing all this extra stuff. And you mentioned that, um, you know, you have, you have different things scheduled kind of throughout the week too. And again, so there is an an element obviously of like, you have to treat your time like a very valuable resource to what time gets dedicated to writing, what gets dedicated to outreach.
00:06:38
Speaker
If you're specifically writing, how do you structure that time? Do you have to block out like a portion of your day? Do you write when inspiration hits? Is it a combination of both? It's a combination. um But like I said, it really at this point, it is it's sort of stressful because it is just like, I know this much has to be written by X or this artist isn't going to have it.
00:06:58
Speaker
And so I'm just um just sort of like not so much waiting for inspiration. Luckily, all this stuff has been outlined and the the basic, the the stuff that would take a ton of creativity to think up has been done. The parts like the parts of writing that I'm doing now are just sort of like putting them in place in the script, making sure that the pages fit together, and you know doing sort of the nuts and bolts work. um So as far as like allocating time for that, don't really do a great job of, I think if I did, i wouldn't just be putting out fires. I don't do a great job of of scheduling time. I just have sort of like a checklist that has all of my stuff on it and it's broken down into pages so that I can get like that serotonin from from scratching off ah something off my checklist.
00:07:45
Speaker
So I just try and get those knocked out is as quickly as I can, as as efficiently as I can. And then If I'm not feeling you like if I sit down, i know I have to write something on a day. I'm not quite feeling it yet. I can sort of jump over and do work on a cover or letter something or do, you know, do one of these other things that's on the checklist.
Transition to Full-Time Comic Creation
00:08:08
Speaker
yeah I'm always very interested in in the process for these things, too. what What I do for my job is I'm a type of a therapist, not mental health, but more like a cognitive therapist. I do a lot of executive functioning work.
00:08:19
Speaker
Um, and a big part of my job is like going through people's days and, and asking, okay, how can we get this started on time? How do we meet this? How do we meet this deadline? So that, that type of stuff really interests me as far as making that work. and Let's throw out the rest of the interview and you just fix me and tell me what I should be doing.
00:08:36
Speaker
The hard thing is I think for me is. that I always tell people like, okay, well, I'm the expert in this. I'm not the expert in what like you're working on. and I've worked with, not that my job is, is centered around people that are creatives, but I've i've had some that, um, I've been my clients that,
00:08:51
Speaker
you know, it's like, I don't know that world. So it's like, I can, I can help you in the ways that I can, but there's so much more to it that again, I don't know, because again, I don't think I have a, a creative bone early in my body other than creativity with maybe problem solving. That's, that's about it. But, um, but yeah, I think just the day in day out makes, you know, makes, I think a lot of people, it makes them interested in learning about what is on the other side of the page to create something too. And, and I think for most people that like, like me that have that nine to five job, It's kind of like, huh, if I was doing this, what would that what would that look like? So for you, that this is an unconventional path that you know most people go a different direction.
00:09:25
Speaker
when At what point in your life did you realize like this could actually be something I do to earn a living and to I can do with you know with my time, not just as a part-time gig but full-time? When did that i kind of realization come to you?
00:09:41
Speaker
I don't think I realized I could do it until I was doing it okay i I made a comic and i and I didn't even keep track of the money that I was making on it. The first comic that I made, I made you know hardly anything on it, but it was, it got published and it came out in comic book stores. And for me, that was sort of more than making a living at it. That was what the goal was.
00:10:06
Speaker
um And I didn't have, it's not like I money. was it wasn't I'm not saying like I wasn't worried about money. It was just that that that wasn't what the the focus was at that time. The focus was just sort of like, can I make these things? Can i get good at this? And can I get them out there? And then eventually through a series of, you know,
00:10:30
Speaker
tribulations. It's a series of like going broke and having to call my mom for you know help me pay the cable bill or whatever. um Eventually, i broke through and and was able to get enough work to to pay the bills with it.
00:10:46
Speaker
But that took you know six years of ah real hard work. not hard, but like real consistent hustling, you know? I feel like that has to be the way, and I don't wanna speak for you, but I feel like that has to be the way that if there's any sort of a dream that somebody is chasing where it's again, it's unconventional, the odds are stacked against you, those types of things. I feel like if we come into that, looking looking at that through a financial lens, it's probably never gonna work out because there's such a big risk that's involved too. for like So it takes a lot of guts to be able to like, hey, I'm gonna try this.
00:11:19
Speaker
And I'm going to stick with it. And I think for most people that if they're looking too much from the the financial side, like for me, for example, I could never do it because I would look from that lens and it would not work for me. Right. So that takes a special person, I think. Well, I tend to, uh, I was talking to some, some aspiring younger creators about this last night.
00:11:38
Speaker
Um, I think that there are certain things that you And I did this, too, when I was yeah like when i was a teenager. It's like you start you set up these little mini goals and lists and things that, like, well, when I get that, then I can do this. And when I get that, then I can then i can be a comic book creator. Then I can, you know, do it full time or whatever. And it is stuff like I would have to get to a certain level of, you know, making money. Or I would have to, you know... get some sort of validation or some sort of job, you know, to to to be like, this is a real thing now. And I think sometimes those are
00:12:15
Speaker
um not procrastination, but sort of just like, it's like your way of timidly stepping into it, which is wise, you know, like that it takes a, I wasn't able, i wouldn't be able to do this now if I were to quit my real job and and start being a comic artist. I could do it when I was 25, 26 years old and didn't ah own anything or owe anything or have any real responsibilities. But now, you know, i had to have built all this up to be able to, you know, I have a house, I have, ah you know, bills, I have, you know, responsibilities.
00:12:55
Speaker
um But I think that like these kids I was talking to last night, we're talking about ah how do you like set up legal documents with your collaborators and stuff like that. And I feel like all of that stuff is just a ah thing that doesn't, isn't that complicated and is just something that you, that you can stop for a couple of days and not push forward and actually make the thing. And you can go like, well, we have to think about this because this will be important, you know?
00:13:20
Speaker
And luckily, I was like I said, I was at a place where I didn't have any responsibilities and I could just not worry about any of that stuff and just put my head down and make comics and then quickly fall into the part where I had responsibilities and I had bills to pay and I had to figure out how to make comics and make money at the same time.
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's the that's the thing too. Where does the where does the money come into come into play? And which is unfortunate for, I think most people that that is the that is the barrier to getting started, which it just reality, but it's um inspiring for those people that just have are able to figure that out. And then to be able to have both.
00:13:56
Speaker
i think that's the thing that is the ultimate goal for I think most creative people too, right? It's like, how can I do what I like to do, but yet how do I make some money at on it as well. I think sometimes fans like look at that as, oh, that's selfish, but it's like, well, we have to, to be able to do this. We, we need the financial part to be there. Yeah. But you, you think when you're idealizing the goal so much when I'm coming up and I'm like, you know, if, if if I put out a comic book, an image, that would be like the best thing that I could ever, bought that's like career achieved, you know, but then you realize like, um, also
00:14:29
Speaker
if once I get there, I'm like, well, if I could take a weekend off, that would be like the ultimate goal. right So it's all, it's a, it's a series of, of achieving and, and then sort of reassessing and, and, and sort of like looking at where you're at and seeing, and checking in with yourself and seeing like, is this it?
00:14:49
Speaker
What was the, what was the project or the the title that you worked on that you think had like the biggest change, like on your, on your life? Do you think? Well, it's, it's my little pony was the one that was sort of like the, the most impactful and the most like changed how I worked and how I, so that was sort of the job where I became a professional on.
00:15:16
Speaker
I talked, I was on the off-bound podcast a couple weeks ago and i talked a lot about this on there, but it just basically like I learned how to, hit deadlines there and I learned how to, you know, do so like I learned storytelling stuff there and how to put pages together and composition, all this stuff that like every other thing I work on when I'm writing Deathstroke, I'm using, you know, fundamentals that I learned making My Little Pony.
00:15:44
Speaker
um So that one, but, and then Stray Dogs ah was the one that like My Little Pony sort of made me a professional and Stray Dogs sort of up until now has sort of what I would say gave me a career, you know? Mm-hmm.
00:15:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think in when I, looking at the My Little Pony stuff too, and like in some ways that like that fits perfectly for everything that came next for you, but yet in some ways i'm like, this this makes no sense with with the type of like writing we see from you later
Incorporating Interests into Creative Work
00:16:12
Speaker
too. yeah um how do you How do you balance that? Not that you're writing, not that you were doing all of your projects at the same time, right? But how do you develop your own style, but yet you have that diversity that you can do all sorts of different things? Where do you think that comes from? are there ways that people can improve that? I'm just interested in a lot of different things. And I have, you know, there's certain things that I'm sort of like hyper focused on that I that I obsess over, you know, comic books and horror movies and, you know, artwork and, you know, there's a like a ah bunch of weird things that I get, but Star Wars, you know, like a bunch of weird things that i get hyper specific about. And then everything else that I'm just like, well, I'm interested in that, too. Like, ah you know, i'm i I keep an open mind. If I see something that interests me, I like to go take a look at it and see it. like i' just I can watch a movie trailer and if in if it's not, you know, I love horror movies or I love, you know, superhero movies or whatever. I see i saw a trailer for like Wuthering Heights and I was like, well, that looks cool too. Like I would like to go see that.
00:17:17
Speaker
So I'm just always sort of like but putting stuff inside my brain and and that sort of helps me develop a point of view.
00:17:28
Speaker
And so then when I get a job and I'm doing Little Pony, I'm making My Little Pony differently than how the other people are making my Little Pony. Cause I'm not just, I'm not like looking at the show and going like, let me make my version. Let me make that. I'm going, let me make my version of that. Or I get a job writing Deathstroke or The Thing or, you know, so Star Wars.
00:17:51
Speaker
And then I'm going like, what's, what's my version of that look like? And in some cases it's, you wouldn't be able, the naked eye would not be able to detect what's different from my thing, but it's just that my, book I've developed a voice by, you know, living a life and putting things in and experiencing things. And that's what everybody does. You know, like if, if I write a a comic based on an outline and another writer bites, writes that something based off that same outline, they're going to be two different works because they're,
00:18:21
Speaker
like what's coming out of me is going to be different from what's coming out of somebody else. Are you able to separate, like if you're, if you're reading, you know, and and again, maybe you, maybe you don't, I did listen to that off panel episode, by the way, great listen off panels, a great show. So everyone listened to that. That's a great interview for sure. um So I'm assuming you're the person that like, you know, you do read comics just because like, as, as a fan, you know, I think some people, I don't know about, I don't know how many comic creators go that route or go a different route, but you know, if I,
00:18:50
Speaker
If I worked at McDonald's, right? Do I want to make the burgers at home? Then probably not. I probably want to save that for when I'm there and I want that separation. So when you're consuming, whether it's like you mentioned, if it's, if it's movies, if it shows, if it's, if it's other comics, if it's.
00:19:04
Speaker
You know, other, other works like that too. Are you able to separate that or is there no separating? Like, Hey, this is maybe an idea that I, not that we're ripping it off from that, but I, this inspired me in this way of of another idea. Can you separate and just watch things just for fun or does that not exist?
00:19:21
Speaker
no i can and i i sometimes think it it's because i'm like i'm just like i have friends that are creative or that are filmmakers or comic writers or whatever and will watch the same thing and they'll have such a different experience of it because they're the kind of people that that are more um analytical they're more locked into it and they're and they're like once the thing disappoints them then they're just like well this is trash like i couldn't enjoy it right i ah i' it's I'm not watching it like I'm not a creative person. I'm watching these things and I feel like I'm empathetic to the challenges of making things. And so when things don't work, I give it a little more um leeway them than I think ah other people might. And then when things do work, I get more excited than i did when I wasn't writing stuff, when I wasn't making stuff. Like when somebody does something in a comic book that really wows me,
00:20:19
Speaker
when I was a kid reading stuff, or even when I was just like, when I was just drawing comics, when I was just, you know, working on ponies or Star Wars or whatever, um i would be impressed by a line or a page turn or something, but now that I that i sort of have my head in the nuts and bolts of, like, putting together an issue from from top to bottom, sometimes I get very impressed by when somebody can really pull off a moment in a comic or or pull off, you know, do something that I haven't seen before. So I tend to, when I see a movie or when I watch TV show or read a comic or whatever, I'm sort of, I can sort of trudge through the parts that, where they weren't as inspiring. And if they never get to the inspiring part, then I'm like, well, that was not worthwhile.
00:21:07
Speaker
you know? Yeah. But that I can watch, you know, a movie that's like a C plus. And if it has like an a plus moment in it somewhere, that's good enough for me. You know, like that I've seen hundreds of movies. I'll see hundreds more. You don't have to, not everyone has to, you know, be star Wars. Like yeah everyone has to start perfect and end perfect and have a perfect middle, you know, like I'm, I'm okay with just having a couple,
00:21:34
Speaker
a couple of shining moments. And, but then when I make stuff, I try to, I hold myself to the standard of making something that I think is solid the whole way through. But I have the empathy when I'm watching other people's stuff to be like, well, i didn't quite. Yeah.
Audience Feedback and Creative Style
00:21:48
Speaker
Yeah. I was going to ask about that too. I heard this was in a different interview. I listened with um Robert Kirkman and he kind of mentioned like back when he was starting and that the type of feedback that he got from like readers and okay.
00:22:00
Speaker
He was thinking, okay, right away, everyone's giving me this great feedback. Everything's good. Everyone's loving it. But then as he leveled up, leveled up, leveled up that the, The feedback became, i think, while I think a lot of his work is very much appreciated by most people, I think too, there's obviously going to have like, there's going to be that growing sense of negative feedback as well. And that just goes with the territory as someone becomes more and more successful. yeah um How much of that do you see, like the mix of like, you know, navigating positive feedback, negative feedback, because you could write the best thing ever and you're going to get that negative feedback if the audience is is large enough too. um Do you see a lot of that at this point? day to day as far as like online, as far as good versus bad feedback on on your work?
00:22:42
Speaker
No, I think I'm about to. Okay. okay i think what Luckily, people that read Image Comics and the and the small amount of of Marvel comics that I've done are less likely to have big big wild opinions about, you know,
00:22:59
Speaker
what i'm what I'm doing with these characters. And especially because you know like in Feral or Local Man or whatever, like I own them. you know like nobody Nobody else knows what they would do more than me or in Local Man's case, me and Tim.
00:23:12
Speaker
um And the the I did the thing and people were pretty happy with that. like That felt like Ben Grimm to them. But i have a like i've in my experience being a fan of comics and being like just sort of watching the discourse,
00:23:27
Speaker
I have noticed that the DC comics fans are, can be persnickety. So I, I check back with me in a couple months and and ask me how it's going. Yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah. People can get, i just, I don't know. I just never understand. I think that people are, i think these characters are just so important to people and and have just existed for so long that it's like people get so into it. I can't imagine myself ever,
00:23:53
Speaker
like going online and saying anything positive, negative about, I mean, positive, yes, negative about probably anything. it's just like, well, that is also a ah human being that wrote that. And just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong. But yeah, comic fans are very, you know, I think very all or nothing for, I think ah for the most point it hits the mark or doesn't, there's no in between. for for this it's ah It's such a personal experience reading a comic that you take it more personally than, you know, even if it was like, a movie If you see a movie and a character gets done dirty, you saw it with your buddies, you can sort of talk that over you know after the movie or whatever. like I didn't like how that happened. If it's a comic, like you just experienced it yourself. You're by yourself generally. you know like and Then if you want to talk about it you just have to go online and tap sort of scream into the wind that you didn't like how you know how somebody so-and-so wrote X, Y, or Z character.
00:24:49
Speaker
Yeah. no I was going to say specific examples, but I was like, i don't want to throw my friends under the bus. want to save. I want to save the friends. Yeah. um No. Yeah. I think it's when we're looking at, you know, like if it is, you know, ah an a DC character that they've been around, you know, forever too. And I think that for me personally, I think that the older I've gotten, the more that I have an appreciation for, there are different takes of the same character too. Like there are different interpretations. And if things are exactly the same and they never change and nothing is ever different, it's like, doesn't that get boring if we're doing the same thing for 60 years or whatever it is? So I think that there are some people that have a really hard time. Like they have their version, whether it's the first version they read or whatever, likely that's probably the case.
Writing Deathstroke Series
00:25:31
Speaker
And then if it deviates from that, it's it's it's wrong too. So how do you navigate that? Because you want to keep the essence of the character, but yet have it be your take on it.
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think that is how you navigate. You just have to have a a pretty solid idea on what your take is. And, you know, like in the case of Deathstroke, like I sort of went through I read Deathstroke and I thought about it and I thought like, what's a what's a direction that I don't think we've explored enough yet?
00:26:01
Speaker
And and then just sort of ah figured out what my what my version of that guy is and then ah then the books can start coming out, you know in less than a month and I'll start to hear feedback I would imagine very soon About what people thought about it and then it's just a matter of sort of like having the the confidence to stay the course and just do this thing and and hopefully people will will come around I think it's the sort of thing that people that like Deathstroke will
00:26:33
Speaker
respond to but i also am prepared for that because it doesn't interest me like you're saying to do to just pick it up and do the exact same thing again i don't think that like i think that thing already exists you know you could you should be reading that if you like that but um so it ah really only interests me in doing something if i can do something that feels you know personal or different or new or ah so yeah i just sort of keep my head down and and not worry about it too much. And we'll see, like I said, I asked me again in in a couple months how that's going. Cause it could be it it like, I'm not at all prepared for the cacophony of, of what's going to, of what comes from writing a DC comic.
00:27:18
Speaker
I've had the chance to to read it, to again, without spoiling anything, too. I really have a hard time imagining that many people are going to have an issue. I mean, I'm not just saying this because you were here. I really enjoyed it. I thought that was super strong. I do not think people will be disappointed whatsoever. It is.
00:27:33
Speaker
I think it does everything a first issue needs to do. And that's, again, that's all I'll say. But it was it was great. Writing's great. The art is your... i The art is... there's ah There's that one panel where we see...
00:27:47
Speaker
deathstroke walking through. There's just like some smoke. That's all I'll say. And just that one panel, I was like, oh, that this is it. This is it. So I don't want to say I don't want to butcher your collaborators name because I'm going to say it wrong because not ah not Italian. But I believe it's Carmen D. Gian Domenico.
00:28:07
Speaker
OK, OK. So that's it. But I have a name that gets butchered. So I have I'm very sympathetic to Carmen. Yeah, yo know for sure. And yeah. So how did, how did everything with, with a death stroke come to be? Obviously DC is at the point where there's been lots of changes that have been happening. and There's been, you know, looking at the absolute universe there's all in now we're going to next level. So how did that all come to be for you?
00:28:33
Speaker
ah the Rob Levin and Paul Kaminsky are editors at DC. Rob runs the Batman group and Paul runs the Superman group, I think.
00:28:43
Speaker
They both sort of hit me up around the same time about, would you like to pitch some characters for us? And they tossed a couple of characters at me.
00:28:54
Speaker
And I put together some, like what my take would be on those things. I didn't do, sometimes I'll do like a several different ideas on both of these. I was i was just like, this this is sort of what my take is. Yeah.
00:29:09
Speaker
And Deathstroke, they were like, that sounds like something we could really sell. You know, what's let's do that. And then it just sort of, you know, it was sort of an, I wouldn't call it a like a normal development process because it took a a pretty long time.
00:29:23
Speaker
um And that, like, we started talking probably in June or May of last year. then, maybe even before that, but then we really sort of cemented things at at San Diego Comic-Con and they, and we talked more about, you know, what this thing would be and and what it would look like and who would draw it.
00:29:49
Speaker
And then Scott Snyder ah at San Diego, that was when I met him as well. And he's, him and Josh Williamson are um consultants on, on a bunch of DC books right now. And especially on this sort of like,
00:30:05
Speaker
absolute next level all in, you know, line of think line of books and the the next level books specifically, like they're trying to make new books with characters that don't always get the same amount of love and promotion that, that like the, the justice league level guys get.
00:30:27
Speaker
And so they're doing those books and, and doing them with with what they called like an absolute ethos, you know, where like, Absolute comics that are sort of like auteur driven people doing almost like their indie book version of what a Batman would be like or what a Wonder Woman or Superman would be like. And so they, I mean, they don't want me to make, you know, like straight bullets or something, but, but they were like, you know, do, do your version of this, do, do a, an indie first issue, like what you would do.
00:30:59
Speaker
with testro but at the same time then they give me carmine to draw the thing and he can just draw action and bombast and you know he draws like uh like michael bay movies in yes yes uh and so i i like that shit too like i love a michael bay movie and so i i get the opportunity to do a story about what this guy's like on the inside and spoilers it's not terrific But then at the same, so I'm doing like this story that's like very interior, but then also because I've been gifted with this incredible artist, very exterior too, where like I can show sort of like what he's going through inside through the external destruction that he sort of mets out on anyone that comes in his general vicinity.
Upcoming Projects and Inspirations
00:31:51
Speaker
So yeah, it's so it's a real, and it's it's been ah a fun process because ah coming and doing my first but you know, big DC thing and sort of having the, the runway to, to set something interesting up. And then also just having this artist that can just whip, like he can just do incredible work. And so it's, it's been very, uh, it's been a very rewarding, uh, thing so far. Yeah. And I can't encourage people enough to go check it out And you said that FOC is Jesus tomorrow, right?
00:32:23
Speaker
ah Yeah. Monday. So I'm sure this will be out after that. Sure. I'll try to get it out as quick as I can, but if you if you're hearing it, if your shop has more copies available, pick it up and then also put it on your put on your pull list. I got it on mine already. So it's nice looking forward to it, looking forward to it for sure. i wanted you mentioned um Local Man. that's one that's That's a book that um you have done that I really love too. And just that that whole...
00:32:49
Speaker
you know, like that theme of like, this is nineties image. And obviously like listening to your, your interview with, with, with David. And I've heard you talk about that before too, just of your kind of love of that era and you know, how things, how things were at that time. So tell me more about local, man. How did that come up? Where did that idea spawn from? Cause that's a great idea that I don't think that many people have kind of gone that route with.
00:33:11
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Not with the nineties. They, there, there are definitely books where, where they, um where they do a modern day look at a character who's from and from the sixty s or from the or i mean, supreme. By Alan Moore was sort of one of those. The Century was sort of like one where they they sort of like had a character with modern day problems where they went back and sort of like showed how that all came together in the in like of Silver Age. But Tim Seeley and I were friends and we sort of bonded over our shared love of nineteen ninety s Image Comics.
00:33:51
Speaker
And I was working on stray dogs during the pandemic. And we had, we had been at a convention together right before everything shut down here in, in Long Beach, California.
00:34:04
Speaker
And ah Norm Ratman had been sitting next to us, who was an anchor at extreme studios. And he showed us this page from brigade number one, like this original page.
00:34:16
Speaker
And it was drawn by Marat Michaels. It was his first, ever like penciling work. and And then Rob Liefeld had gone and drawn all the heads over. Like he he was like, no, it should look more like this. So if you look at Brigade number one, it looks like it's drawn sort of by Rob Liefeld, because all the faces are Rob Liefeld faces.
00:34:36
Speaker
But Norm could pull up the the paper, like it was just sort of pasted on, and you could pull it back, and could see the original face. And it just sort of was like a window into this world that that Tim and I both ah sort of idolized and fantasized about. you know like We're probably you know five years, five, ten years too young to have been, even if we were talented enough at the time. I think Tim probably was. Tim was better at drawing faster than I was. It took me a while to to get good. um
00:35:06
Speaker
But we were too young for that. and And so it's this generation right ahead of us. And we we thought like what how cool it must have been to make those books. And then we also thought about like those books are our foundational, like that's for me, that's my, you know, Silver Age books. Like when when i would when I was growing up and going to the comic book store, all the old heads in there would sort of give me shit about, you know, my Liefeld books or, you know, my Wildstorm books or whatever. They would be like these other, you know, John Byrne books, that's where it's at, or Howard Chaykin books, that's where it's the generation before.
00:35:44
Speaker
um And I like those books now, but at the time I was like, this is the stuff that my generation likes, you know, like this is what, this is what I'm responding to. And so we just local man, this is the longest explanation of a book possibly ever local man is a book about that. It's about, a you know, somebody who's, you know, basically Tim and my age now looking back on their,
00:36:09
Speaker
sort of like past and their past is this 90s extreme, you know, wild storm top cow life, you know, like that he had all this explosive stuff when when he was younger and now he's sort of like digging out from that and sort of like his life is is a mess because he's a weak sort of wrote him as a complicated person. Both Tim and I were going through a lot of complicated stuff at the time we're developing it and the whole world was falling apart, you know, like, yeah, We sort of created that book in COVID basically.
00:36:41
Speaker
um And so, yeah, it was, it's just ah a book about a guy that used to be a superhero and now he's hit rock bottom and he has to move back home to his mom and dad, at this tiny town where he grew up and everybody there is disappointed in him because he didn't, he wasn't, you know,
00:36:57
Speaker
He didn't end up being you know Shaft or Spartan from Spartan's a robot. He didn't grow up anywhere, but you know he didn't end up being an impressive superhero. He just sort of like brought shame on their town. So this whole town hates him, and then people start to get murdered there, and he has to figure out if he can do anything to to help without being this superhero that he that he never lived up to his full potential.
00:37:21
Speaker
I love the, again, this is going to hit home for me a little bit more too. I love the, that this is based in a small town too. I grew up in, i don't live there currently, but i grew up in, in Minnesota. So not, not in Wisconsin, but it's close enough. And I grew up in a town where,
00:37:36
Speaker
A little bit different because it's, you know lakes country and it's more of a touristy town that I grew up in, but it's, it's ah close enough in size. There are about 7,000 people when I was growing up there. It's grown since, but I know a lot of towns like that. And there's similarities even with that to the town I grew up in. And just the, the thought of like, everybody knows everybody else.
00:37:55
Speaker
Everybody knows your shortcomings. If, if you brought shame to your, your family, like that's people know those things and are talking about those things. It's not like if you grew up in, you know, a bigger city where just, you can blend in. It's just not that way at all. So what, um how did that kind of come into play? Cause think that's a really like great part of that story is the interconnected like yeah elements of a small town.
00:38:17
Speaker
Well, Tim grew up in in a small town in Wisconsin. That is the, it's the town that's in revival.
Personal Experiences in Storytelling
00:38:22
Speaker
And so, and, and the town Farmington and local man is sort of a a fake version of his town, you know, like a combination of a bunch of, different small towns. And then I grew up, um, in Colorado Springs, which is not a small town. It's, you know, like a few few hundred thousand people, but, uh, every summer i would spend all summer in these tiny towns in Nebraska where my grandparents lived and where my aunt and uncle lived. And so I sort of had this, you know, at the same time that I was, um,
00:38:57
Speaker
discovering comic books and and discovering image comics and like all that like falling in love with all that stuff. Every summer I would go out and sort of have this sort of like exchange student experience being a, they you know Colorado Springs is not a huge city, but I would go be like a city mouse in ah in a country mouse world for the for the summer. And so it was putting a lot of that stuff you know, the stuff that we saw and experienced in those things. And Tim, you know, Tim was sort of like the keeper of that stuff because he obviously lived it full time and I was more of a you know, a tourist. But I feel like we both had sort of like things that we wanted to include from our lives that were, you know, that again, you don't usually see in superhero stories, you know, there's like the Great Lakes Avengers, but that's like a sort of a gag, you know, yeah like having having a ah small, ten you know,
00:39:48
Speaker
you drive through these towns when you drive through the country and they'll have like a billboard that says they're the hometown of somebody, you know, and you're just like, oh, it's like, that's what this town is. You know, like they have people live there and die there and work there and, you know, do all their stuff. But that's where Johnny Carson's from or that's where, you know,
00:40:06
Speaker
Uh, so we thought about that, about, you know, this small town that sort of like it was, was left behind and he left it behind. And, and that becomes part of the, um, animosity as well. You know, like this guy that he, everybody in town thought like, Oh, we're about to be on, you know, like it's about to be a new, uh,
00:40:26
Speaker
like things are going to change around here now that we have a superhero and then he sucked. And so nothing changed. And I think that's, that is, there's a lot of truth in that, again, from my experience too, where and we're we're looking at some of these towns and I think people assume there's, you know, the small town where nothing bad ever happens. Right. And that's, that's the plot of, of, you know, many different things. But I think that in, in reality, yeah,
00:40:49
Speaker
while that's true, but when something does happen, it just hits so much harder to because then everything is personal. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Everybody knows everybody. It could have been me. You know, it could I could have been there. I've been over to that house, all that stuff. Yeah, for sure.
00:41:03
Speaker
It absolutely hits that cord so strong, too. So again, like, while that's maybe an element that comes up in other types of stories, not in the superhero books at all. Never like, other than, like you said, great lakes, Avengers, that's about the only thing I can think of. Um, so that is, I think I appreciated that too. Not that everybody can relate, but there's a lot of the world where they, they live in towns just like that. For some reason, that was a detail of that story that really like stood out to me just because I can so much relate to them. Like this is exactly how this would go. If this was real life, like this is, this is it for sure. Right.
00:41:33
Speaker
Where i think of we, we might've misaligned it a little bit is, a lot of those small towns don't have a comic book store. So it's like, so we're, you know, selling this book to an audience that may or may not exist. And sometimes like the smaller the town, sometimes the comic book store will be like in a drug store or, you know, part of a hardware store.
00:41:53
Speaker
um And so, And in those cases, like they have to be really on the ball to even have image comics, you know, like it might just be like they get Marvel and DC comics or, you know, they get Archie comics or whatever. So I think part of the reason why Local Man was such a hard sell is that we were selling to an audience that when we find them and when they, you know, when we find small people that grew up in small towns you that read the book, they respond to it. But it oftentimes is just like, I wonder how do you get these to these people? And that is very true. I mean, the town that I grew up in did not have a shop. And there wasn't like even, at least that I was exposed to, there wasn't even comics and drugstores. I eventually found, i don't know if this was, you know, these were in we had like a bookstore that's no longer there. We had a bookstore and they would they would get some trades. I didn't, I never saw them until I was probably, you know, preteen, teenage.
00:42:46
Speaker
that sort of thing. And it was just like, it was just the big titles and that was it. It was just some trades of, of, of those. So, I mean, I didn't, i don't think I went to a comic shop one time when I was probably four to five years old when I was visiting my sister, she lived, she's quite a bit older than myself. So I was probably, you know,
00:43:03
Speaker
somewhere five to eight or so. And I picked up a few books, but she lived, you know, in a different state. So there wasn't that chance. The closest shop to where I grew up was, it was a full hour drive away. And you know, if, if you live in the city, an hour drive might not be like a big deal, but like when you live in a small town, it can get everywhere within five to 10 minutes. You're not driving an hour for just about anything unless you have to. so yeah, I can, I can certainly see that. That was my experience as well.
Unique Formats and Character Depth
00:43:29
Speaker
Growing up, no comic shops nearby and, hence i got into comics probably not till i was you know 15 16 years old where i could where i could drive myself and find these things but yeah it's that it makes a lot of sense but if people like people can still find local man then there's a nice um hardcover online that you can get still to that collects the whole run so yeah definitely check that out local man can't recommend that one enough too thank you yeah that local man hardcover is uh
00:43:56
Speaker
I put that together and it's very complete. It's got everything that we did for Local Man. It's got the one shots too. in yeah as well one shots It's got tons of extras and all the covers. and yeah we really i wanted to make like We love that book so much that we wanted to make like our own you know Criterion DVD edition of of that book.
00:44:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's super nice. And i I do like to get singles of things too, but there are some books that are just like, you have to have like the, I can be a sucker for that from time to time where I get like, I might have two of the C I might have the singles, but also get a collected edition. But. Local man is one of those ones that you want to have both too, because, and luckily the singles are not expensive. that mean, we, you can find them out there.
00:44:40
Speaker
You can find the whole run, but. every issue of that book was a flip book where the front of the story was told on the, on the A side and then you flip it over and it would have the backup story from the nineties. And I drew the front side and Tim Seely drew the backside. And, uh, and then there were some times where we would do stuff that you could only do in that format where like, there's one issue where the character falls through my side of the comic and sort of wanders onto the, onto Tim, see the spoilers wanders over to Tim's side.
00:45:10
Speaker
And you know, you can't do that. we We figured out a way to do it in the trade and in the hardcover, but it's not the same as like, you know, you in the comic when you're reading it, he's like walking past advertisements and he's walking past like the letters page and stuff. And that feels, you know, like a completely different thing that we hadn't seen anyone do.
00:45:28
Speaker
So that we tried to make it something that rewarded people for picking up the single issues. Yeah. Yeah, i think that's i think that that's a fun thing too. to like You can differentiate between the two and give people a reason to like, hey, you you could get this, you could get that, or you could get both. like there's There's reasons to do that, and there's there's there's going to be a payoff there. um You mentioned your your your Thing series. so I also did enjoy that book quite quite a lot too. And going into that, like when you have someone that is part of a you know part of a team,
00:45:58
Speaker
You know, I feel like that can be kind of a challenge where it's just like this is the context we're used to seeing this character into and that that miniseries was quite rewarding. I feel like each issue went together so well and it just it was a lot of fun because like you just don't know who's going to show up. Yeah, but there were so many nice surprises in there too. What was your experience like writing, writing the writing the thing that character that I think is. Again, has several different sides to him and can be if if someone takes the time to do that can be such a deep character too. Yeah.
00:46:27
Speaker
Um, well, yeah, I didn't even really think of it as as a challenge to write him in a different context than as a part of the team that never occurred to me for whatever reason. Um, I, I sort of knew what I liked about him as a character and I liked, you know, that he was sort of gruff, but he's also, you know, like a a heart of gold and he, um,
00:46:50
Speaker
was like sweet to children. i always liked that like aspect of him. And I visually liked that aspect of him because I think it works so nicely in drawings and in in panels to have, you know, a big, basically he's shaped like a upside down you you know, then next to him is just a little like lowercase I. Like, I feel like that's a nice, a nice visual. So yeah, I had these things that I liked about him and I could sort of identify the things in myself that I felt like these are parts of me that feel like Ben Graham. And then it was just a matter of, you know, putting together ah a plot and um and a mystery to to sort of lay the thing over. And then ah they had told me they wanted to put it in sort of like this evergreen John Byrne era of Fantastic Four. You know, it's in continuity, but it's not in current continuity.
00:47:43
Speaker
So basically said like, this happens back here. um And so just figure out, you know, something you want to do that that you can put in slide in there and it won't screw You know, I can't put go back in time and do a story set back then where the thing dies because he shows up in Fantastic Four the next month. you know um So that was great because I have, you know, have every official handbook of the Marvel Universe and I i love Marvel two in one.
00:48:15
Speaker
And I thought about how he, like the thing, in some of those he would be teamed up with villains, but for the most part he's just like every superhero's buddy. You know, they've got that card game and he's sort of like, you know, every superhero in New York knows that if the chips are down, they can count on on Ben Grimm.
00:48:35
Speaker
And obviously he's in all those comics he's fought every supervillain too. But I thought about, like, what are some ones that we haven't really seen him do, take on one-on-one.
00:48:47
Speaker
And when they said John Byrne era as, like, what they thought of of as their evergreen Fantastic Four time, I thought, like, well, that's... Claremont X-Men era, and that's Frank Miller, Daredevil era.
00:49:00
Speaker
And that's cool because then I'm thinking, then I start to think like, oh, you know what's it gonna be like if the thing faces bullseye or what's it gonna be like if he you know has to go up against the kingpin or you know like, Thing is a cosmic adventurer, but he sort of also has this street level side to him. So what happens if I put him up against street level villains?
00:49:22
Speaker
So that was just sort of where it came from. And then going through those official handbooks and just sort of having, you know, like a kid in a candy shop going like, oh, we could have the Sinister Six and we could have, you know, Hate Monger and we we could have Black Tom and the Juggernaut. Wouldn't it be cool to see the thing, you know, try and stop the Juggernaut and all that stuff. when i When I picked that book up to read and I just, i was not expecting the level of like, okay, this is kind of emotional too. i just thought, this okay, this is gonna be a fun trip.
00:49:50
Speaker
You know, it's gonna be a fun five issues. And then we get in and while there's a lot of that, there is that element of like, we get into things with like bullying and and how that kind of affects yeah him and how that kind of comes full circle. um i think that's just ah a topic for i think a lot of people that it's just like that is such a heavy thing because i think many people can relate to that story of like oh i've been that kid or even if you haven't it's like i i think this is one of the most horrible things that a young person can experience is is this and then how that kind of goes for full circle and we kind of see ben without spoiling too much here kind of keep doing the right thing regardless of what has happened to him And that I was not expecting. I thought this was just going to be, oh, this is all fun, which again, it was very fun. But there is that side of it where it's we have the fun, but we have there's this deep emotional and part of of the
Writing Flawed Characters
00:50:36
Speaker
story as well. I was writing it right during like the first issue I was writing right before.
00:50:45
Speaker
And then the second issue I wrote right after the last election. And so, you know, no matter what your side you're on, that was a very ah sort of like contentious and, uh,
00:50:57
Speaker
Like there was a lot of bullying going on. you know there was A lot of people were being dicks to each other. yeah And I have this, it's in the book, I sort of have this ethos about how I think bullies are weak, you know, I think. And it's hard to write villains for me because I think they're weak too, you know. I feel like the strongest thing you can do is help somebody or lift somebody up.
00:51:18
Speaker
And the weakest thing you can do is be selfish or, you know, that type of stuff. And so that's basically what what Ben Grimm ends up telling this kid in the book is that like, you know, she's, she ends up having power and she's been bullied and, and it could be a villain origin story. You know, it could be like, I'm going to give back to everybody that took from me.
00:51:41
Speaker
And instead, Ben Grimm says, you know, like, uh, bullies aren't strong. They're weak. You know, the, you know, basically what I said, you know, like, if you want to be strong, you help people. and that's what I think superheroes are about and that's definitely what I think Ben Grimm's about and so that was sort of it all sort of came out of that and it probably was extra emotional just because it was such a fraught time to be making that comic, you know? Yeah.
00:52:04
Speaker
Yeah, no, for sure. And I think that you mentioned that you take parts of yourself into these characters and like, oh, this is how I view building. This is how I view this type of behavior too. How does that then transfer to when you write a character like, you know, cross Jack or death stroke, which again, those are not the same characters, but that there is, there is, there is more, you know, more of a flawed nature to that character. How does that transfer then? It's still pulling from myself. It's just pulling my flaws. Like Crossjack is all of the things about me that I, that I'm disappointed in, you know, like all the things where I'm just like, and, and obviously some of them are exaggerated too, you know, like I'm not as bad as Crossjack and I'm definitely not as bad as Deathstroke, but I do have things that I don't like about myself. And, and I, and when I'm thinking about characters who are,
00:52:55
Speaker
unlikable or who do unlikable things, you know, I'm thinking like, how can I sort of amplify that? And how does this character operate when they're, if I hate this about myself, here's this guy that does all of this. And either he hates that about himself too. And that's interesting to write about, or he doesn't care.
00:53:12
Speaker
And that's fascinating. Cause then I'm just like, what's going on? You know, like this, this guy's way out there. um So it's the same, you know, like, like I said, Ben Grimm writing him is like all the stuff that I think is best about me.
00:53:24
Speaker
I put that into that character. And then when I'm doing Slade Wilson, I'm doing like, this is the stuff that I think is worst about me, but also still, it's still personal. So it's still hopefully compelling, you know, it's definitely interesting. It could be, we get to the end of, you know, but we get, a couple of volumes deep on deathstroke people were just like, this is brutal. This guy really sucks. ah Oh no, that's great. And I hope that again, wish you all the best on all the things with, with deathstroke. And it's again, it's a, i don't know if you view it this way or not. Like how, how does the, when you work on these books that it's like, okay, there's, there's going to be some steam behind this just because all the things DC have, you know, has, has done.
00:54:07
Speaker
How do you look at that as a You know, obviously you're working on this book on its own, but how do you see this as like a launching point for, you know, greater and greater things in your career too, as far as like on the creator own side?
Future Aspirations and Gratitude
00:54:20
Speaker
Well, it's a lot, it's a lot of pressure because the, what i want to do, you know, like this is awesome. Like I love making superhero comics and I love, you know, I like, I like working for these companies and stuff, but my ultimate goal is just to be able to make my own stuff and continue to make, you know, like.
00:54:36
Speaker
if I could make my full living just making Feral and making local man and stuff like that would be incredible for me. And so having a platform like this now where, you know, thanks to Nick Drogada and Scott Snyder and and Kelly Thompson, sha Hayden Sherman and, and, and, and Jason, people are really paying attention to DC comics right now.
00:55:03
Speaker
And, Not that, you know, they weren't before, but they super are now. And this, I feel very fortunate to be a part of this next ah next level initiative. You know, like it's the next wave of these, like you thought we were doing cool stuff by doing different stuff. Here's more cool stuff that's different, you know, like check this out too. And I think more than anything I've done before, it really is a ah opportunities to be in the spotlight. And so i feel an immense amount of pressure to perform, not so that people think I'm good at making a DC comic, which I want to, you know, like, A, I want to be good at that, but I especially want people to go like, who's this?
00:55:47
Speaker
And where can I find more of that? You know, like, if you like Deathstroke, you will like Local Man. You know, like, that's that's the the proposition that I'm putting out there. And so it's ah It's a rare opportunity and one that not everyone gets to sort of have this sort of spotlight and platform.
00:56:08
Speaker
And so I'm hoping that I can use it to to get get some new readers, get some new eyes on my books. while While keeping eyes on this book and while doing, you know, like I want to do more DC stuff and more Marvel stuff, but ultimately I'm trying to, uh, to build my business, to build my, you know, my library and, and, and have, you know, bring more people to that.
00:56:34
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Tony, I've kept you for for plenty of time here, but before I let you go to how can the people that are listening to this best support you, obviously you have, you've got your website, you got all your books coming out. So point people to where they can go to best support you and your work. Yeah. I'm on all social media, basically at Tony fleece, F L E E C S. And then I have a website, Tony fleece.com that has a newsletter on there that you can sign up for which i put out very sporadically i do not spam people on there but i may start doing it more but if you want to be kept abreast of what new books are coming out and where i'll be at conventions and stuff i send out a couple two three of those a year um and you can also buy original art there and we're about to start having some new products that are available on on the website too so that's like my
00:57:29
Speaker
you know, like my home base and my store and all that stuff. So that's Tony fleece.com. But, you know, as you know, anybody that's trying to get ahold of me, you can just reach out on social media or, or anywhere I am maybe too available. so Yeah, that's the thing, right? It's that's a blessing and a curse. I can imagine.
00:57:48
Speaker
it's it's It's definitely been a blessing. i've I've found, you know, being able to interact with the audience and with other creators and retailers and all that stuff it's it's worked in my favor to be uh to be personable and approachable so and i uh have two you know I have a little too much Midwestern shame to do to be anything besides that. Sure. Well, again, Tony, thank you so much for your time. Best of luck with everything. i'd I'd love to have you back on, and back on the show at a later date to kind of talk how things are going at whatever point in time that is. But again, thank you so much for, yeah, thank you for your time.
00:58:24
Speaker
Yeah, just reach out. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. Take care.