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Kyle Starks: End of Life from DC Vertigo, Peacemaker, Wrestle Heist
16 Plays20 days ago
Joining the show for this episode is comics creator Kyle Starks! We talk his work on End of Life from DC Vertigo, Peacemaker Tries Hard with Steve Pugh, Wrestle Heist, and more!
Check out Kyle’s website: https://www.kylestarks.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Kyle Starks and His Works
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another episode of From Script to Shelf, a comic book podcast. So joining the show today is Kyle Starks. So with Kyle, we discussed um End of Life from Vertigo, a little bit of conversation on Peacemaker Tries Hard, Wrestle Heist, another upcoming book that he that he has ongoing now.
00:00:27
Speaker
We also discussed a little bit about his thoughts on the comic book business as well, so a little bit of information there and also Kyle is ah a fellow wrestling fan so we have a little bit of wrestling conversation towards the end here so please give this conversation a listen and please support Kyle's work ladies and gentlemen welcome back to from script to shelf we have a very special guest today we have Kyle Starks joining the show Kyle how are you this evening Hey, thanks for having me. We're here. We're ready to go. Let's talk about whatever we're to talk about. going to talk about things. Okay. Sounds good. Sounds
Busy Schedule and Personal Challenges
00:01:00
Speaker
good. Well, you've had a pretty busy last little bit from what it sounds like. You had Emerald City. You had C2E2. So how has your last month or two been as far as travel, workload, stuff like that?
00:01:13
Speaker
I mean, having having two weeks on the road will put you behind on work. My mom fell and broke her elbows. There's a lot going on, but you know what? We persevere. That's what we do.
00:01:24
Speaker
Uh, it's better to be busy than not busy. Absolutely. Absolutely. i saw, I saw those, um, some of those posts on blue sky, but like your mom, I'm sorry to hear that that was happening. Is she all good now? Yeah. Just her elbow. we can live without those.
00:01:37
Speaker
Okay. That's true. And it sounds like you had some very interesting, um, people that were in the waiting room with you. It sounds, it sounds like, i think I think that's all waiting rooms. I don't think it's a, I don't think it was exclusive to me. was hateful, hateful experience. it is pretty shocking. Like when you're in public and you see people that are like, I mean, we are in a public space here. Why are you doing some of the things that you were doing? It's kind of, kind of shocking to be honest, but yeah, we're we're already inconvenienced enough. I'll be honest with you. So it's a brain, right. yeah Absolutely. Absolutely.
Fan Interactions and Regional Differences
00:02:07
Speaker
So when, when you're on the road and you're traveling and you're at some of these shows, what, what is the work that people most want to talk about with you? Uh,
00:02:18
Speaker
It kind of depends on the show and when it happens. it's funny i use It's funny you say that, talk to me about that. I feel like there's not a lot of talking to me about projects right now. There is clear interest, but there's not a lot of conversations.
00:02:35
Speaker
I was at C2E2, I was so busy also. That might have been a side, but that hands down, the book people wanted to deal with at C2E2 was Russell Heist. And at Emerald City, it was End of Life. That was probably...
00:02:49
Speaker
I'm going to say that seems right in my head. But i been like, you just every show is different. Like, where you're at regionally matters. um How comic heavy the show is matters. um So, yeah, there's there's no rhyme or reason. they yeah all Like, I'll have like, um like at Emerald City, I signed a ton of Barflies. Well, Barfly came out a year and a half and trade, you know what i mean? Like it's an old book to me. And I know I did like I did terrific con lash.
00:03:16
Speaker
I think I did it last year. I can't remember. And like, I signed so many, um, six sidekicks to trigger Keaton. And it's like, why am I signing that now? I don't know. Um, everything feels like it's, for me, it's always a couple of years late, which is never great, uh, for sales. Um, so it just, it's, there's no, there doesn't feel like there's a lot of rhyme or reason to it.
00:03:35
Speaker
Absolutely. Okay. That's, that's the thing that I feel like it's always very interesting
Staying Relevant in the Comic Industry
00:03:39
Speaker
too. Cause I, I live, I can, I live in the Midwest. There's not a lot of shows like nearby. so it's just one of those things that I just don't have that experience very often to go to a show. So it's, it is interesting too, where if, depending on where you're at, I was kind of wondering about that too, because,
00:03:53
Speaker
um Yeah, different parts of the country. People like different things and even know that you have, ah there's ah you know quite the back catalog of of work. So it's interesting that you are um having people that are wanting to talk about or get things signed that or maybe came out again several years ago, right? But i think that is kind of the, in which again, not like you said, not the best thing for sales, but it is, I guess I do. One thing I do like is we are at a time where it's like, there are a lot of things that are, if they are remaining in print, like we can still go back to read things because there's so many things that I do not stay caught up on. So it's like, if I can go back and find like some hidden gems, that to me is pretty important too.
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think, and I think there's also like, Every year I do sort of a bigger book, sort of. So it's a lot of people discover me for the first time. And so I think that brings a lot of, oh, let me see what else they have. And sometimes it's what the store didn't sell, if I'm going be honest. So you're like, why was Six Sidekicks popular two years ago?
Creating Quality Content vs. Marketing
00:04:50
Speaker
Peacemaker? I don't know. I know that Rocky and the Mountain sold really well after Peacemaker, like notably.
00:04:56
Speaker
um And I think it's because that's what people had. Like, honestly, I think it's what stores had or what they could easily get, which is also possibly the answer. But I think there's a lot of people selling stuff that they had and then reordering it.
00:05:07
Speaker
um But yeah, it's I mean, it's crazy. Like if if I'm going to do a one day show in middle Indiana, which is pretty comic savvy, but like look, if I bring any Rick and Morty stuff, like the Rick and Morty stuff was what's going to sell there, but I'm not bringing any Rick and Morty stuff. um So like whatever is like recognizable that easily validates you sometimes is what is what will sell.
00:05:27
Speaker
um They're all weird, man. Like you can't plan. Some people can. I cannot. My work just changes too often. And I think Um, even like genre wise, like there's kind of jumps between each book. So it's not like I can be like, Oh, this is, I'll bring all the horror books. You know what I mean? Like, there's just never a rhyme. So I try to bring, well, at this point, I try to bring what I have. That's a comp, honestly, um, because of the profits higher, but yeah, it's like what do, what do I have? What can I bring? What, uh, what will could take place on this, you know, the table that doesn't make it look ridiculous.
00:05:59
Speaker
Absolutely.
Challenges in the Comic Market
00:06:00
Speaker
And you mentioned like some, like, like some of the, like the, the business side of of things and how long did that take you to kind of learn like the ins and outs like business wise? Cause I think a lot of people think comics and they think of just the creative side of things. And so what was that learning curve like for you to kind of like learn like the business of it and to kind of become more successful that way. And again, that's probably a tough question, but. know For conventions or for the industry? Like what? Well, I was thinking more just industry-wide, but certainly you can talk. Yeah.
00:06:28
Speaker
I don't have it figured out, man. I don't make any money. i mean, I do okay. I've been doing it professionally for nine years, but a lot of that's luck and I've done enough creator-owned projects that I've benefited. But um man, Rick and Morty was great for me in terms of doing well. It was also great for me in terms of getting more work because I showed like I was consistent and professional and I could do a book for five years, though no one read that book. So it's really just...
00:06:52
Speaker
um that I had a job for five years that people would look at early on, that I did a comedy book successfully. um And that opened a ton of doors. And Sex Castle opened that door because if you do a funny book, you get a lot of opportunities.
00:07:05
Speaker
And I've been very lucky that I haven't had to do anything I didn't want to do. I've never had to sort of beg for jobs or you know, just try to get get something to do. Like, there's books I would say i'd say no to a lot of things. I do say no to a lot of things. And there's there's there's weeks where that's probably unwise, but overall, I want to keep making the best work. So, I mean, dude, the industry is so hard. like Like, there's not really a There is a trick to it and I don't know the trick and you want to get, you know, I mean, you had Tony on here, right? and Tony knows whatever the trick is.
00:07:38
Speaker
um I do not. I'm trying to figure out because Tony's Tony, guys like Tony and Scotty Young, Tinian, obviously, um some of those guys have figured out how you engage retailers and you engage the direct market in a way that's profitable past.
00:07:56
Speaker
What I do, what I do is I just try to keep putting out good books and hope somebody reads them. Well, that's terrible business. in this industry. And I'm trying to figure it out, you know I'm really trying to engage retailers. And each book that I do that sort of raises my Q rating helps. ah End of Life was my best selling number one. And I suspect 85% of that people have never read my work before, including shop owners.
00:08:18
Speaker
So it's this thing where you you know, all the shops are different. All the publishers are different. Everything's different. No two things are the same. Scripts aren't the same. Artists aren't the same. So there's the people who have figured it out, like kudos to them. I'm so envious because they have money, they have how they have houses paid off and you know, probably like a car that they can rely on.
00:08:38
Speaker
on I'm doing I'm doing fine. I'm doing fine, but like I haven't figured it out. I mean, like the short, simple answer is that is like is like make good work and keep getting work. But the work, the quality of the work, in my experience, begets more work.
00:08:55
Speaker
like If you put out something good, then someone will want you to do you to do something with them if you do something good. and Now, that the the thing is, is that if that book doesn't sell well, They're not going to ask you to do another thing, whether the book's good or not. It's like, well, I can't control if it sells well. I'm not a publisher. I'm a storyteller. Like, I don't know how to sell. i don't know how to sell a book. I really don't.
00:09:16
Speaker
I had a item meeting with a really, I was told afterwards, a really important person in marketing, in comics marketing. I didn't know. I just thought it was a meeting. And yeah and and the first thing they said to me was something along the lines of, how do you think we should promote this?
00:09:34
Speaker
And i was like, I don't know. I didn't go to school for marketing. Like I i have no idea. If I was good at marketing, I probably
Engaging with Fans and Building an Audience
00:09:40
Speaker
wouldn't be having this breakfast. um and And so, yeah, the business, I mean, everyone's gonna tell you something different. There is there is some secret to it past just making good work, but I don't know what that is. And that's probably like the real, like, how do you figure out the industry? Otherwise I just, um I try to be nice. I never miss deadlines. I try to always do a good job.
00:09:59
Speaker
i I'm not a problem and I'm fast. So like, that's what I do. And it's worked out so well. I've done okay with creator and stuff. So I can draw something over a few years and I get supported nicely for that.
00:10:12
Speaker
Um, but that's just building an audience and that's by just putting out good things as long as you can, as often as you can. and I think that any person that I've talked to like personally or seen things online, like even if even if there's, you know like you said, for end of life, if there's lots of those people that are reading that that have not read your other work, I feel like you've built so much goodwill with the people that have read your work, and there is like a loyal audience there that it's like, okay, if you like this, you're probably going to like a lot of other things that that you also do. i don't know. do you find that to be the case? oh for sure it's just what is what is that number of people it's not i'm really good friends with matt kent who's really good friends with jeff lemire and they have built up audiences that they don't the direct market doesn't matter like they could just not do the direct marketing more because they have x thousand probably higher than that but x thousands number of people who will always give them 20 bucks well mine is significantly lower than that so but yeah i've had people with me literally from day one
00:11:08
Speaker
um And it's grown. I think every project it grows. i And I do believe that. And I think people talk about my books. and I think they share my books. I know so like Sex Castle has never gone out of print because people will buy it and give it away. I think the new Rock Candy Mountain, i think it always should have been collected.
00:11:24
Speaker
It's going to do the same. i think Peacemaker and Softcover, maybe. i think Peacemaker and Compact, we're trying to get to happen. yeah We're trying to manifest Peacemaker Trice Heart as a compact comic. I think that's a book that people will really talk about. And I think there's a lot of stuff. I think where monsters lies a really fun horror comic for people who like horror. I think the book I just did devil on my shoulder is a really great dark horror for people who like real straight horror.
00:11:47
Speaker
I have a wrestling book. That's also a heist book. So I think I have a lot of stuff that hits sort of a lot of different targets. And there's really not one consistent theme, which is maybe also not super great.
00:12:02
Speaker
Um, but also like, I want to keep trying, I want to do the things I want to do. I want to try different things. Uh, and, and I also think that's why people hang on because I'm not giving them the same, maybe the same flavor, maybe the same, not flavors and right.
00:12:16
Speaker
Like it's definitely ice cream every time. Right. It's definitely ice cream. It's definitely Kyle. Um, But I change it up because I get bored and I want to try new things. And when I try new things, I get to ah have a different perspective and and try things I had done before.
00:12:30
Speaker
And I like it. Absolutely. And I think that one thing about that, don't know, again, I'm not sure if you're going to agree with this or not, but I think that from things that I've seen like of you, um you're definitely one of those creators that is like is going to interact with like people that enjoy your work. And there was one day I was on like ah like a comics Reddit Um, and don't know which, which one it was. And it's like, all of a sudden you popped up in there somewhere. Like, I don't know what, which one it was and how long ago this was, but at some point, and then like, you know, people really appreciate that. It's like, i get either some sort of like interaction I can have with the creator online. And that's like, people think that's cool.
00:13:04
Speaker
Oh, well I do that. I do that. I like, I, try if I try to, but you have to be very careful to not be like, um, uh, to like, um, actually, you know what i mean? Like, yes. Yeah. would be Like, let well, hold on. Uh, but I do try to, I do try to goof.
00:13:19
Speaker
But you can't respond. i I'm per with what perpetually online. And some people say, like, I'm online because I'm at my computer. I work all day at my computer. and And when I'm not at my computer, I'm expecting text. I'm always looking at things. So if I get tagged, like, I probably see the comment. And if I think it's worthy of response, I will respond. But I know some people, like, just love to argue they're more successful than me.
00:13:40
Speaker
so i Years ago, they're like, you haven't made it until till someone hates you. And I don't think. I don't know if someone hates me. i haven't heard I haven't heard of them. That's not manifesting the wrong things. But i they would argue with people. They would explain things like in their big two comics. And like, i don't really, and no thank you.
00:13:57
Speaker
i like I don't have answers that. But I do like to goof around and like, you know, I did this comic called Wrestle Heist from Image that's coming out right now. And someone was like, oh we're gonna talk about wrestling and we're heist on our Patreon. i was like, well, i like to talk about wretling I like to talk about wrestling. And they're like, do you want to come on? And I'm like, sure like what Why not? like these are the old This is all there is promotion. All there is promotion is me, which is which is categorically incorrect, by the way. That's not my job. But if coming on a podcast and... and i if Someone's like, oh, i usually I play this video game and I have a friend. I like i can't play it I have a podcast. And they said, is it good?
Handling Criticism in the Industry
00:14:30
Speaker
And I'm like, no, I don't i don't know.
00:14:32
Speaker
And I don't. I don't know. I almost never know what the podcast is because I don't listen. there's i listen to off-panel. Like, I listen to very few. there are certain ones I'll listen to if friends on it or if i'm interested in, like,
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah, so I don't I don't know. I have no idea. But if you if you have 10, if you have 10 people following you, they listen to the show, and that's it. And two of them buy my book. That's great. It's worth my hour to say, which which is it, which is an incredibly small number.
00:14:57
Speaker
But I like to think I like to, I like to have the delusion that I'm charming and likable and I make good work. And if people experience me, they'll want to experience more of me in some regard. And I hope, I hope that's true. If not, well, sorry, sorry, everybody. Sorry. let down And I think like, don't get, I can't speak to other people, but for, for myself, I feel like if, if I can, if I hear somebody on a podcast or and you know any sort of interview where I see them interacting online, like to me, it's just like, it's just that,
00:15:26
Speaker
That thought of like, oh, like this is a real person behind the work. You get to know them to some extent, and you know, in the in a limited capacity. And that to me, like that drives some level of connection. I feel like for at least as I buy comics that like I'll look for, you know, maybe less of what characters are they writing? If it's one of the big two more than like who's writing the book, that's probably the biggest thing or who's drawing or, you know, whatever. but You mentioned some things about like, okay, you haven't made it until people, somebody hates you. I mentioned hate i meant i mentioned that to to um to Tony when I had him on. And I mentioned, I was listening to ah a Robert Kirkman interview and he talked about that, about like, okay, early on, like he was getting all this positive feedback. And I remember which book it was where things started to kind of take off and he was becoming more successful, but then like the negative comments are increasing and increasing. And I asked Tony about that too. And he's like,
00:16:13
Speaker
I haven't got a lot of that so far, but he's like, I have a feeling I'm going to when, when death stroke starts coming out and that's going to become more of a hot button thing. But Tony and I think about like, think about how popular Scotty is a good example to, but Tony's, this is like Tony's Tony's made money.
00:16:29
Speaker
i gotta be real careful. I talk about my, I like Tony a lot. I really do. Tony's been very successful and he's been very smart about this industry, but. The pony people are the pony people are mad in some way that he did ponies for years right but after that it's like everyone loves stray dogs and everyone loves Pharaoh and certainly. Everyone like local man like his body of work is all very likable, but I remember um.
00:16:50
Speaker
The first convention I did, I sat next to Eric Henderson and it wasn't the first convention she did, but she was not Eric Henderson. She was selling Prince and I was selling my wrestling comic, my first wrestling comic. And we just really hit it off.
00:17:03
Speaker
um And a few years later, i was doing Sex Castle. Literally two years later, i was doing Sex Castle and she was coming up. Sex Castle was coming from Image and she was about to Squirrel Girl. And Squirrel Girl came out.
00:17:15
Speaker
She had done... two things i'm probably exaggerating i know she did a couple of quantum and woodies for valiant and she did a a book called subatomic party girls for which is a great name for monkey brain and i think like i think for comic for sequential work like that was about it and when she started squirrel girl correctly everyone went this person this artist is amazing this artist is incredible and of course ryan north you couldn't ask for a better team honestly absolutely but i'd say Within a few months, like her Twitter changed. Her Twitter changed as soon as Squirrel Girl came out, but it just also got worse. Like you could see it just get worse. And I don't know.
00:17:55
Speaker
If that's there's more eyes, then there's more people to have a different opinion. I don't know if that's just... Which it feels like is that as fans, we just... Like all fandoms have so many haters in them, which doesn't make any sense. Like I think we'd just like to... Like we expect more of the things that we love or we have unrealistic expectations. I don't know what that is. But certainly, you know, ah i don't get a lot of hate on Sex Castle. But like what with how many people read it? You know what i mean You're talking about literally thousands, like literally less than 10,000. Probably I have to check that I don't I just say numbers sometimes. But you know, Deathstroke is going to be in the life was 30 30 something.
00:18:34
Speaker
i hate this place was 28 something you never heard a bad word about I hate this place. My best selling book up until then. um In fact, it's usually like the it is the ones that don't sell quite as well. If I see what's like, if I see a semi negative one, but it's like, yeah, it's it's somewhere over. It's somewhere over 35.
00:18:52
Speaker
You know what I mean? oh Yeah. It'd be over 35 regular. And it's, yeah I don't know if it's just, there's more eyes. And so you're getting the people who maybe some people don't even like it that much. People don't like comics that much. um But I think certainly like at a certain number, there's a passion in the, there's a passion in the fandom that makes people really veer one way or the other. Imagine being a Batman writer. Like I, I couldn't.
00:19:15
Speaker
Oh yeah. Even like that, like Batman, I see, i see like, um, like sort of the the agitation I see online for like, oh, this guy's Batman run. It's like, oh, you know that guy's one of the four best writers in comics. Like your options are, there's only three guys better than him and they've already written, like they just wrote before him. yeah um And there's this thing like, man, imagine being mad when you always get the best thing.
00:19:39
Speaker
You get the best artist, and Like, what are you mad about? You know, you should you should try to read a green Green Arrow. You should be a Green Arrow fan. like you You don't have a Rogues gallery. you get like You only have two guys that anyone knows in your Rogues gallery. but You guys have a billion marketable guys you can drop and sell.
00:19:54
Speaker
So you can put Kite Man into Batman right now and it'll sell. Yeah. 100,000 copies probably. Green Arrow is trying to get 22. So i think it's interesting. But i think it's I do think it's true. like you the The moment where you go...
00:20:09
Speaker
Like what's happening? Like you guys all like this before. i think there's expectations and there's fan. But i also think like how you deal with that property matters. um Because like no one that's the other thing is like all creator and stuff like people aren't going to tell you did stray dogs wrong.
00:20:26
Speaker
Yeah. You know what I mean? people Right. Exactly. They're going to say local man is wrong. But you can do death stroke. wrong by a certain percentage of people's opinion. though Can you imagine like Deathstroke is on that list of next level Deathstroke and Lobo.
00:20:40
Speaker
But can you imagine something like you're doing Deadman wrong. dead what's What are you comparing it to? like Right. Yeah. well You compare it to the massive bulk Deadman like Deadman's got a lot of stuff. Don't get me wrong. But it's not like you did Constantine wrong. It's not like there's there's not like these are minor demons like okay i guess you could do demon wrong but if they don't make him rhyme who's gonna to really be mad about that like i hope he doesn't rhyme i i can only read so much rhyme you know what i mean the rhyme is cool but i can only deal with it for so long like let's not do the rhyme anymore don't be mad if they don't do that it's better um so that's just an interesting thing about fandom and sometimes you know everyone's somebody's favorite though i don't know if that's true i used to always think that was true but do you think like rocket racer is legitimately like somebody's favorite like yeah that's the thing though maybe right like i love d man so i can't say anything what do i Yeah, you mentioned um you mentioned off panel and David. He's he's a big so stilt man. guy I guess, you know, I think stilt man's got a little bit of a bigger audience. But but still, like, yeah, that might be true. But yeah, with any sort of fandom and you mentioned wrestling, I'm a big wrestling fan as well. Yeah, same.
00:21:44
Speaker
any type of gosh, that might be worse than comics though, I think, but, um, I don't know. It's just, I cannot imagine. I can, I can see like having opinions and it's a way to kind of engage, but there are some, there some, some questionable things that people put online. It's like, I don't know how you could take a moment on your day to like talk about it this way. Both of those now have tribalism in them. That's adding to the, to the fervor of, of how like obnoxious it can be the fandom.
00:22:12
Speaker
Oh my gosh. I mean, I, I'm not like a big star Wars person. That's another one. That's pretty, pretty bad. That goes across again, but movies, comics shows. That's, that's everything I said, I guess, but yeah, it is. It's crazy. It's, it is like, I, I'm a big, like a figure collector. So like, I'm into like the toy communities, even that it's like, people are freaking out because this, uh, the joints,
00:22:32
Speaker
Yes. the wrong join Yeah. The joints wrong. This, this is, this paint is slightly inaccurate to the event. I'm like, I get it, but it's like, Oh my, we got it. We have bigger things that we could, we could probably worry about. I think here, isn't it nicer to have these things?
00:22:45
Speaker
I mean, if they're, if they're outright bad, but there's a nitpickery, I just feel like, we're supposed to be having fun though i will say as a wrestling fan i also think it's their responsibility to make sure i have some fun and i don't think they always do that so think it's true of comics too yeah i think it's true of comics often too where it's just like it feels like it's mcdonald's maybe a little too often and i don't know if that if that's the publisher or editorial like who's who's to blame for for that i don't know i don't know there's too many there's too many yeah maybe maybe there's too many that's That's the thing that I think is like for anybody to stand out and pretty pretty much anything entertainment wise, it's like there's, well, people have, you know, people, some people have disposable income to spend on lots of different things. Some people don't, you have to pick and choose. And there's so many options for any form of,
Power of Word of Mouth in Entertainment
00:23:30
Speaker
not just in comics, but any form of entertainment. It's like, how does anybody stand out? That's the part that I feel like is such an uphill battle. It's so if you make any sort of mark, that's quite, quite the achievement I think for anybody.
00:23:41
Speaker
And regardless if it's, you know if it's um social media if it is comics if it's you know whatever that's it's hard hard to do yeah i i still think it's word of mouth i think for music from even for movies for comics for wrestlers um i think it's still word of mouth like word of like doing good matters obviously like you have to be doing good you have to make something even if it's not good it has to be interesting or entertaining But I i think word of mouth is king. and And I said, that's why I'll do these podcasts, because if I can get one person to read something, I'd like, oh, have you read this? Have you read Where Monsters Lie? You like monsters? It's awesome. um
00:24:18
Speaker
That's the game. Like, that's the game. And I think it's true. Like, I think of there's some guys there's some guys and who are if your first book or your first thing is a staggering work of genius, then you're undeniable. Right. Like Rom V is undeniable. Like, there was no point where we thought, oh, man, I wonder if this guy's going to make it. You know what i mean? Yeah. Right. um Like, or like, but I like, I think, man, like, I think what's going on with like Javon and tricking over, I think that's word of mouth. I think that's word of mouth because the word of mouth is from like I knew Javon before NXT, but I think like, I love NXT.
00:24:53
Speaker
It's probably one of my favorite. It's the one thing I try not to miss outside of some weird YouTube ones. Sure. But, uh, Like, I also think if you see him, it's tough to go to go. oh he's great. But having people say, like, you guys see this guy, you guys see this guy is huge in wrestling. It's huge with promotions. I know someone I just this is my favorite wrestling is like I watch JCW. I watch the championship wrestling. it's playing it It's on Thursday. It's an hour. And I I had heard Vince Russo was booking it. So I watched it. I think I always like um i need i should check it out. I should check it out.
00:25:26
Speaker
and then i was on one of these podcasts talking about wrestling specifically and the guy was like i'm gonna tell you watch jcw and i was like i'll check it out and because like someone who seemed like they knew they were talking about said you should check this out i checked it out and was it free makes it easier yeah is that better than five dollars a hundred percent a hundred percent it's better it's easier to try something free than not free uh all my books are on hoopla by the way that's a library i could read them for free um But like word of mouth matters. Validation matters. It doesn't matter how good you are. um Someone has to say, have you checked this out? It's good. Have you checked this out? It's good. Have you heard it? Have you read in this guy's stuff? It's good. And I think that that the with social media going weird, you know, when comics were their best, it was ah people in the comic shop and people in the schoolyards. Like was people just talking about
00:26:08
Speaker
um I always use the example of like, I didn't, I would never have known about Punisher in the jet ski if someone didn't tell me about Punisher in the jet ski. And like, thank God they did. Thank God I know about Punisher in the jet. I never would have known that.
00:26:21
Speaker
But it used to be like, that was the word of mouth. And I worked at a comic shop for eight years. And I remember like when New Warriors came out, I remember when Thunderbolts came out, is that anyone who bought something else that I liked, i was like, have you checked out New Warriors? in Thunderbolts, it was like, if anyone had a superhero comic where like you have to go back and get Thunderbolts number one, like it's going blow your mind. You're not going to believe what happens. But that you it used to be a lot more than there. Certainly stores are still hand selling.
00:26:45
Speaker
um Like there's no question about that. But I think in 2000, 17, there was a very enthusiastic social community about comics. We were very positive about it. and There's a lot of, have you read this? Have you read this? Have you read this?
00:26:59
Speaker
um And with new subcoms, especially with so much stories, there's no way they have time to read all 30 comics every week before the next day. you know what I mean? It was like, well, how do you do it? And I think a lot of it for better or for worse,
00:27:12
Speaker
is what's your name recognition and your name recognition is going to be decided by people talking about your work, and by stories promoting your work. And that's the only way it's going to happen unless you make a staggering work of genius. um But it's not going to happen. Like that's that's not that's not realistic for most of us um who are just making good. google I think Tony is a perfect example. like Tony figured out what he did with stray dogs in those variants.
00:27:38
Speaker
I don't and I talked to him about it. I don't know how he did it. And he told me how he did it, but I don't know how it worked. And it's like, is it was it like, I'm sure the concept, this Disney serial killer thing is like, that's just good enough.
00:27:51
Speaker
tra I don't know. I've heard a lot of good pitches that didn't do super well. Um, So it's like, I don't know, like, is that is that it that it just in the moment it is perfect? Is that but i think it's because so many retailers did those variants. You have to you have to hand sell it.
00:28:04
Speaker
You have to hand sell it because you have all these copies to sell, right? And you got these because you like the book because you thought you could sell them. Because it's this easy pitch. Like there's all these little things. But because of that, Tony ingratiated himself with a ton of retailers.
00:28:16
Speaker
And if you can get the retailers on your side, if you can get podcasters on your side, I think there's there's a handful that are big ones because people come to me like, Oh, I know you from my fanboys are War Rocket Ajax are off panel or whatever.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's dope. Thanks, guys. Because that's literally the best I can ask for is for someone who has any platform at all to say when you're talking about things you like, you go, would you what what are you reading? And you go, oh, you should check out this. You should check out this. Like that's but I think that's it. You have to be validated. And then, course, when a lot of people say something's very good, of course, you know, one third have to go, no, it's not that good. and they okay that's fair. And then I'm mad about it and say, well, I'm sorry.
00:28:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think. And when you when you were on, i think I mentioned an off panel, i I would love to talk to to David at some point, too. But anyway, um yeah, he's he seems like a super cool guy. now i think that's when I learned about your work the first time because you've been on you've been on his show. I don't know. Once year, I think. Yeah, it's been three, four years.
00:29:13
Speaker
So I'm like, I think that's when I first, I think that's, and that led to, again, be looking at yourself. And so so there is definitely like, there's power to that. And again, i don't know about how, I mean, he's got a pretty big show, obviously, but, but yeah, those are the things that like, again, to me, I, that happens to me pretty often where I hear somebody on a podcast and it's like, yeah I don't maybe know who the person is, but I know the show. So I'll listen to the show and like, okay, if they're having them on, this is probably going to be pretty good. And it leads into like, oh, I've discovered this whole new,
00:29:40
Speaker
it's all new thing or this, this, um, discovered this person's work. And there's a back catalog where I can look at things, even if it's not just the current stuff. But so, yeah, that's, that is super cool. And
Releasing Wrestle Heist: Timing and Promotion
00:29:50
Speaker
speaking of new books, like you've been working on like wrestle heist and that's one that is so right up my alley that I did not know was even coming. Like I totally missed it. Like I knew that it was a thing after I missed like the first probably a couple issues. And now I'm like trying to go back and find, copies. I looked at my shop and they don't have anything. so i'm like i'm Number one sold out. Number one sold out for sure. I don't know. All four issues sold out. and I was hoping to sell those sketch covers for a while, but I only got what I got.
00:30:16
Speaker
you look and i I wish i that was a huge flex. It didn't it no it wasn't ordered very high. Was it because it was Christmas? I don't know. I don't know. Did I did I not promote it as well as I could have? Did I just miss the speculator boom by one month?
00:30:31
Speaker
there's all these There's all these things. um Who knows? You know, i feel like if I have very few regrets in this industry, which is, I think, tough to say, or maybe not, maybe it's easy to say, but I've I it's hard to be to think to be making comics for something like 13 years now, 10 to nine of them professionally.
00:30:52
Speaker
that I don't really have any regrets. The one regret I had was that Rock Candy Mountain was two volumes and that's been corrected. That's corrected 2024. They've been in one volume. um But I think if I could change one thing that hasn't been changed is that I would have waited until after End of Life to do Wrestle Heist. sure I would just, it was done and that's when it comes out. Like to me, I didn't, and that's what goes to the very first question you asked me is like, how did how did you figure out the industry or what?
00:31:19
Speaker
Man, I don't like, everything's wrong. Um, could it have sold better? Would it have sold better after end of life? I bet it was sold a thousand more. you know what I mean? Like, that's pretty good.
00:31:30
Speaker
Um, and but yeah, I, I don't know. It's like, it's it's weird. It's weird when something sells out and you know what the numbers were just to be like, i think that's, that's good, but also it's awful.
00:31:44
Speaker
Um, because that means I'm in a situation where I am desperately hoping when August, I think that's right, when August comes around, people who are like, re and I'm gonna have to figure out how to be very proactive for that. But again, my reach is my reach.
00:32:00
Speaker
I can only go so far. It's like, it's only gonna go so far and hope that other people talk about it or they remember they were interested in it, but they couldn't get it. So maybe they'll try it now. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it was, I did a bad job and so the orders were low.
00:32:15
Speaker
it was too close to Christmas, cause it was, I think it was the week before Christmas. That's a bad time. Sure. Um, yeah, I should have, I should have waited two months, but what can you do? But it's hard when it's like, yeah, it's hard to put something on hold. It's like, if it's, if it's done, it's done. And that's, yeah, that, that's the thing that I think is probably pretty difficult too. Cause like, while it's in hindsight, it's like, Oh, I could have done this or that, but it's like, how do you really know until you do it? Of like, you can take your best shot, but, Well, I think with something like that, someone wiser than me would be like, like i had a i I've had a couple in my day. i'm going to I've had a couple of days where I've had like three, I think one time I had four books come out on the same Wednesday. And when it happened,
00:32:53
Speaker
five years ago, i was like, that's awesome. That's so cool. I five have five books out. That's awesome. In 2026, I had three books and I go, oh, that's my three books versus the absolute line. of Wait, hold on. This is bad. Like I should they should have been spread out somehow.
00:33:10
Speaker
um But I know that the people who love me, they're going to, they're going to buy, they're going to, they're only, I don't like $5. They're going to spend $12 on me, right? Or they'll get one next week. I know they'll get it. I know they'll get it. But when you're one of these, um one of these, I'm to new kids, though they're not all kids, but one of these new kids to comics who are going in and they're literally doing the thing that we had to do, I had to do 30 plus years ago, 40 years ago, which was you just look at what's on the shelf and you go, okay, I'll try capture it. Like there's only 12 things or whatever. I'll try this out.
00:33:38
Speaker
Where they're going in and they're getting, I'm going get absolutely Batman. We absolutely want a woman. I'm going to get exclusive corpses apparently. And then they're looking to see what's interesting. If your book's gone, they can't get it. If you have,
00:33:49
Speaker
If you have one option, they might take a stab at. I feel like that's beneficial. Someone's listening is going to he's wrong, he's wrong. I know probably, but to me, if you're already, if you're going in and you have 25 bucks, I don't know if you're just trying out, if you're just looking for things to read, you would try three by the same author. You know what i mean? Even if they're three very different books. So I feel like five years ago, I thought it was awesome. And this year I was like, m I should try to avoid that. the future yeah I just try to figure out how to avoid that. But that's the type of thing where you know, you start sitting in work or the work starts coming in and you don't know when the publisher is going it out.
00:34:20
Speaker
And you, you, I certainly don't go, well, let me get a calendar out and make sure like, let me figure four weeks. Like I have no idea. I'm just so excited when things come out. So I have very little patience for those types of things. So yeah if image says you can do a book, I'm going to do it and then send it in and be like, let's, here's this, let's go. Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. I want to get onto the next thing. I don't want to be, it's tough to, now the the benefit of image is that it is easier to promote because it's so right now, like I'm doing,
00:34:46
Speaker
um ah I'm doing like trade dress right now for the trade because I put way too much work into the back batter and stuff of this. So the trade has to have it, too. You know what i mean? and And it's like, oh, well, the fifth issue comes out in a couple of weeks. Like I can be very active because I'm thinking about it. I think it's like I've never stopped thinking about Russell Heist um because I made it and I was still finishing it when the first issue i was on three or four. I can't remember.
00:35:10
Speaker
so it's one of those things where it's like it's very active. That's the great thing about image is it's not when um It's pretty good, right? I mean, look, I wrote end of life number one, two years ago.
00:35:20
Speaker
I wrote two years ago. it I thought it was going to come out April of last year. And it's like, i I love that book. I'm so proud of that book, but I would have done a better job talking about it when I was in the middle of actively writing it. Yeah. yeah So it's one of the things like you go, oh and that's the other. So that makes it hard to promote. It's hard to be when you have a lot of books like I have, especially two years ago.
00:35:45
Speaker
I'm promoting a lot of different things. It's like, how do you, there's too much, like it's better if you probably only have one or two
Creative Freedom in End of Life
00:35:50
Speaker
things to sort of focus in on, but also like I need money, so I have to make books. You gotta to do it. Gotta do it. you Gotta do it.
00:35:56
Speaker
How did, how did end of life, I mean, especially I know like that was a pretty big, I think a lot of fans were pretty excited when they announced that, okay, Vertigo's coming back. And so how did that come to be is working on that book, you went you in you and Steve?
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the the short version, the short version, there's two parts to it One, it's sort of a response to Vertigo came back sort of as a response. There's a lot of reasons why it came back. But one of them was is that retailers had said to DC that one of the problems, one of the problems with the current market was there wasn't any ongoings with the same theme. They wanted their sort of Claremont Burns, right?
00:36:29
Speaker
And um I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true. But I think I love that DC goes, we'll try. And so what they did is they wanted to make sure that they had teams that they knew liked each other and would maybe want to co-create an ongoing type thing. And two is that especially for that first wave, they wanted books that they would like, like they wanted, they wanted teams. So um Chris Conroy, who's the executive editor of app, uh,
00:37:01
Speaker
a Vertigo, obviously, but he's Black Label and I think Elseworlds, and he does a bunch of stuff for Absolute 2, but he's not above, I don't think he's above Elseworlds either, but he's above Black Label, and they love Peacemaker. love Peacemaker, like they love peacemaker and and I do think, I think Steve and I made something great I think we made something timeless, honestly. And I say that humbly, I say it objectively.
00:37:21
Speaker
um So when they were doing it, I'm sure there was like, well, we didn't have a single problem with those two guys. I'm sure that was also a factor. But I think that they really like the work that we have unique voices, um that we would make something that no one else is making, which I think is true of most of my books, for better or for worse, right? For better or for worse. And that's why, like, if if you were like, let's get some teams together.
00:37:44
Speaker
i'd be like got to get condon phillips like to me i think they're such a great duo i think they're really brubaker phillips they're the second coming in a lot of ways i think i think those guys are going to do really really great things so why not get their their favorite idea um and dennis is fine right we all agree dennis dennis is dennis is struggling his way through the whole thing but i think the dennis ones are the most interesting because they just had one book they just had 20 what a four issue series um So yeah, it was really like, these are the teams that we think will will work together that make interesting things that are not like other things that we like.
00:38:18
Speaker
um And because they seem to like each other, they'll do it for a long time. So that was really the thing. And that's why it's all it's all pre-existing teams. um Because the goal is for, I think, three quarters of these books, if not more, is to be ongoing. So I got it because a Peacemaker. Like said, good work begets good work. Sex Castle got me Rick and Morty. Rick and Morty got me a lot of things. Sex Castle got me a lot of things. It's got me Rock Candy Mountain, which got me a lot things.
00:38:42
Speaker
Good work begets good work. I do feel like I'm the oddest choice out of everybody. Everybody is in Vertigo, but I think it's such an immense honor. and And to me, I'm so old when I think of Vertigo, I think, oh, you take an old DC character and you make them cooler. um but But the truth of it like, you know, Vertigo has really been more creator-owned than anything else through its own length. and And I think the truest the The truest thing about all of them is that they were not like anything else on the shelves and that they were they let the they let those creators cook. And that's 100% what me and Steve are doing. We're making something that no one else is making.
00:39:16
Speaker
if there is i I couldn't tell you what it is. I think it's preachersque, honestly, and know it's a little bit funnier maybe. um but you the humor isn't it's not a comedy book it's to me i i say today i was kind of annoyed about some of the covers honestly because they kind of push into comedy more than i wish they would because while the book is humorous i mean it is about a guy trying to hide from a bunch of people trying to kill them while his dad dies from stage four cancer like i don't know how funny that situation is um but like i like i like I like things the way i like things and I think they should have everything in them and that includes humor. um
00:39:51
Speaker
And I think it's easier to like someone so unlikable if they're also sort of comically stupid. Not that Eddie, the main character is necessarily super stupid, but he's kind of super stupid. You know what I mean? Right, right. kind Like he, he might be, he might be good at like,
00:40:08
Speaker
directions. now You know, what I mean, like i don't know but like, he doesn't understand. He's very, he's so self involved. i think I think, think it's the type of thing. And I think a peacemaker is like we came from peacemaker is that peacemaker sucked, but he was self aware about it and yearn to be better. And sort of the thing with Eddie is like, Eddie's sucks and isn't self aware yet.
00:40:27
Speaker
But I think when he becomes self aware, when he though he's so he's so stubborn, might resist it but it's one of those things where it's like well yeah he's really unlikable but it's in a funny way but also that veneers it can't stick it just can't because now you're surrounded by this town of really charming likable people who have who actually like think there's good in the world and uh and eventually that's going to sway him even though literally everyone on earth is trying to kill him so he might be too busy to really see or learn those lessons uh
00:40:58
Speaker
But yeah, so that's how we got it. I mean, we got it cause because they like Peacemaker. I should just do it the short version. But I like this one where it's like, there's a lot of steps for them to decide that me and Steve would do a good job. But I do think like, what an honor. What a crazy, I can't think of, and I know there have been like another really humorous Vertigo series that was intentional, intentionally. Because I think Preacher has really funny parts. Yeah.
00:41:22
Speaker
ah but And I know there are some, I know I'm blanking on them, but like what an honor to maybe be like one of the first like sort of humor leaning books. I don't know why they picked me. I remember like before it came out, I had a meeting or I saw Chris Conroy at San Diego Comic-Con and I've gone twice. So it was the one time I was there.
00:41:39
Speaker
And i this was before Dennis became Dennis. So this would have been like a year and a half ago. And I said, i said look, i know all these I know these books are good. Because I know Condon Phillips' book is good. I know my book is good.
00:41:50
Speaker
And we hadn't seen Bleeding Hearts at the time. i didn't didn't know anything about it. um which is ironic because he's the one who's done the best out of all these people. But I was like, are we concerned? Like, that like could we not get Scott Snyder to do one of these or Tom King or Rom V? Like, could we not get like another a name? Because Tinian's there, but it wasn't a new Tinian series.
00:42:10
Speaker
It was, you know what I mean? Yeah. um And they're like, they're like, that'll be fine. And I was like, oh my God, like, why would, why? And I say sincerely, like, retailers have no real good reason to be like, whoa, Kyle Starks is doing Vertigo.
00:42:23
Speaker
There's no whoa, Steve, Steve Hughes done every iteration of Vertigo that he's been around so long. They don't get they don't give a shit like, you know what i mean? so it's like Condon had that Texas blood and infield gang massacre. And that's basically it, which are great, which are super great. um He did a wrestling book, too, called Hell's a Squared Circle, which I recommend if you haven't read. It's just a one shot.
00:42:42
Speaker
I think he's great. And it's like, why would a retailer be excited, like really excited about this? and you go, it's kind of like a test wave. I say, yeah, but what if they started Absolute with like Booster Gold? know what I mean? Yeah. You don't know these guys. Like, you don't know these guys. But we're going to like, so Dennis, like the things that happened to Dennis was, I think, really good for Vertigo, for people to care. Because now it's Tinian and Dennis Camp. And Dennis Camp, I think arguably, it's between him Scott Snyder, who is the most important writer of this year.
00:43:14
Speaker
um probably scott snyder important but who is who is that i don't know that's a tough neck and neck that is he had such a huge breakout that that we benefited from that um because now you're like oh there's a reason to care about the series because obviously they have good taste and you hope people think that because again it's all about being validated it's all about being validated so that's how i got it uh i've done i've written 10 of 12 guaranteed issues i think all 10 issues are great It's
Collaboration in the Creative Process
00:43:40
Speaker
an ongoing, I'm writing it like it's an ongoing. There aren't arcs. Sorry, guys. I mean, we do, I do try to kind of wrap things at six because of the trades. And I don't want that to be weird because I did that with a Rock Candy Mountain, which is why I wish it was two trades, one trade instead of two.
00:43:53
Speaker
um So you do want to give people kind of a reason to keep going or to set up another arc, but like there's they're not storie they're not six issue stories. Like there's not arcs. Like I'm doing like an ongoing and my favorite ongoings were kind of like every issue is a new episode. You know what i mean? And there's kind of, are like Buffy, kind of Buffy style where there's like maybe there's a big boss, but there's a bunch of little stuff as you get there. And that's how i like it. Like that's how i like them. And I was told to write like an ongoing, so I'm writing like an ongoing, which means it will probably end abruptly at some point.
00:44:22
Speaker
How do you, and when you guys were getting direction on this series, since it is like Vertigo is coming back and it is maybe treated a little bit more like, Hey, this is, well, it's not creator-owned, but it's kind of that more in that. but It is creator-owned.
00:44:34
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So how, what do they, what is the, like the direction that you guys got for the book and how much, like, how much oversight is there on that? yeah. i I don't get a lot of notes. I mean, i don't know what to say. Like, I don't get a lot of notes. I i i usually have ah a phone call with Matt Levine, who's the assistant editor, who's my – I adore. I simply adore him.
00:44:56
Speaker
I rarely get notes that are like, you should go, you should do this or you should do that. Like they just, that's not how they do it. That's not how we do it with Peacemaker. um I think I'm pretty good at this. I say again, humbly, I objectively, where I don't think I'm giving work that needs to be fixed or needs to be considering different directions. Again, I'm jinxing it. I'm jinxing it right now. I know I am. But for this, like every note that I got was additive to make the story tighter. It was never like, what if this, what if that? I've never gotten notes like that. I've never in my life gotten it. I've never asked for notes like that.
00:45:26
Speaker
um so this is a creator on book um even here's the thing like peacemaker black label they don't care it's it technically maybe not even sometimes it's canonical kind it's adult canonical art it's not canonical peacemaker is non-canonical right so i can do whatever i want so what what note are they going give me like i misused you know mala in the brain like they don't care um what else have i done wild dog like no one cares about wild dog i could do whatever i wanted to do uh im forgetting a DC thing.
00:45:59
Speaker
It doesn't matter. but so I've been very lucky. I've been very lucky. Like they've just let me cook. And that was, that's kind of the vertigo motto, right? Like we want these creative people to do their creative stories. And um I know I can remember instances of dealing, talking with peers where they're like, I can't wait to talk to my editor about, and I'm like, what? Like, i was like, really? It's like, oh yeah, I love to bounce ideas off of them.
00:46:21
Speaker
And i was like, Really? Like, like i I like it when it's all my idea, um but that's just different creativities. Like, it's just different creativities.
00:46:32
Speaker
um So I'm sure some people who have done these, I'm sure some people who are working on these books have different relationships with them. But for the most part, like, Steve doesn't even send in pencils. Like, Steve just sends in inks.
00:46:44
Speaker
So I think, like, it's a very tight, efficient duo, and Steve doesn't miss, like, I, no joke, when you when you get to around probably issue like seven, I realized how good he is at just making characters. So I just start making up, like, I just, like, there's several characters, like, who is, I'm like, i've just I just made it up, and I just wanted to see what he would draw.
00:47:07
Speaker
And it's always perfect. I never, i I've literally done, was telling someone this the other day, and this is kind of, like, this isn't, I'm not doing a bit. This is hard facts. We've done,
00:47:19
Speaker
He's for sure drawn nine issues of End of Life. And we did five issues of Peacemaker. I think that's right. It might've been six. I can't remember. Let's say it was five. It might've been six.
00:47:30
Speaker
Who knows? Who knows numbers? So that's, we've done, we've done 15 issues of comics together, which is 15 times 22. I've never had to give him a note. I've never been like, oh no, that i like not one time, not even like, oh, I don't think that's the right,
00:47:45
Speaker
gun. You know what i mean? Like, nope, no point in time have i I not a single one. um And that's because he's such a professional. And he's so good at knowing what I'm saying, which is, again, because he's such a professional. um And he's just so good at his job. And I think especially if you're an editor, If you have two guys who don't cause problems, who are always putting up pretty good work, I'd say BB plus. If not, some we aim for A's. We think we can A's. A couple them are A's. I think issue three so three is an A. I think one's an A plus. I said it. I said it. I think issue one was an A plus.
00:48:24
Speaker
is that um I think it's easy. to You don't have to babysit. like You just let them go. And that's the whole thing with vertigo. I'm not doing... in what they call mainline. I'm just gonna keep saying booster gold because I'm trying to manifest it. Justice gang. Why didn't I do a justice thing? Guys, is that it's different because you because there are there is there is historical things that matter.
00:48:45
Speaker
And like you you can't use this character because I can do I'm making up characters where are they're going to say like, like big cock who appears at the end of issue two, like big cocks like he's not like that. I'm like, I decided what he's like, I'm in charge. They're my get they're my guy is like, I know exactly what they're like, i like they can make suggestions to make them better.
00:49:01
Speaker
Though, they didn't, like, that's mine. i didn Like, that's mine. I'm gonna tell you, like, and I i bet Felice said the same thing, is that DC has been, and everything I've done with them, I've done two other things, I'm blanking on them. Oh, har we did Harley Quinn. We did a Harley Quinn one-shot. I did a Batgirl one-shot.
00:49:20
Speaker
And I did something else that I really enjoyed. I can't, that's gonna bother me. maybe Maybe there isn't another one. Maybe i'm thinking End of into Life and Peacemaker, is that it's been a dream. they put me in a position to do works that they know they're my, they're my kind of books.
00:49:35
Speaker
um And I think they, if, if someone was like, I don't think I can do space opera. And I say that, and I'm Timu James, like I'm Timu James Gunn, who's very good at space opera, obviously, but I'm very, I'm very character. And I think very street level, like those are the kind of, um,
00:49:52
Speaker
and Like, if someone was like, hey, we want you to Green Lantern, I'd be like, um, buddy, I don't know what that I don't know what that is. Like, I can't... It's too many characters, and I'm so character-driven, and usually that means we want to focus on just a couple guys.
00:50:04
Speaker
But I think that if they were like, hey, we want you to do Green Lantern, they'd be like, we want you to do Absolute Nord. You know what i mean? that you right right clearly Oh, Matt, the DC Matt thing. The DC Matt thing just came out. Yes, yes.
00:50:15
Speaker
Super fun. Like, super fun. um So DC's been a dream. I rarely... uh usually people let me cook and when they don't i don't understand it though i do also know like for licensed books like it's their thing like there is like but when i do a licensed book like i'm thinking about those fans i did one shot thanos thing for marvel i didn't do kyle stark's thanos who gives a shit i like what's the coolest thanos story our lobo lobo is the one i'm forgetting about lobo was a dream lobo lobo cancels just bet we're sold out was a dream and like i did peacemaker i did this is why should do guy gardner next lobo guy garden know what i mean Lobo, Peacemaker, Wild Dog, like they were like, oh, he's really good at these sort of violent dummies. Like, yeah, I'm the best at violent dummies. I'm great at violent dummies.
00:50:58
Speaker
um But they just let me cook. And well,
Decisions Behind Peacemaker
00:51:00
Speaker
they didn't ask me to do, you know, Far Sector. I could never. Like, I could never. I'm not smart. I'm like, I mean, I'm not dumb, but like, that's smart guy stuff. And and that's not what I do. So, yeah, they just let me cook, man. That's, the again, the long, long answers to that have short answers, probably.
00:51:15
Speaker
No, I love the long answers. And you mentioned like how kind of Peacemaker was treated the same way. This is kind of like a out in left field question, but what was the decision in Peacemaker to use the demolition team?
00:51:28
Speaker
nice ah here So any character that's in it's super easy. um I thought this might be the only DC book I ever get to do. And so why are Maul and the Brain the villain? Because they're my favorite DC villains. I love Maul and the Brain. I'm a big Grant Morrison, Doom Patrol guy. I love Maul and the Brain. Why was Snowflame in there?
00:51:47
Speaker
i might only get to do one book. why was Why was Kimo in there? i thought i might like a new book and i wanted i will say i wanted original og just plastic man like blank plastic man who spits out of a circle in his mouth i wanted it to be him because i think it's so hilarious but also he's like legitimately terrifying um although almost every choice was some of it is some of it for a peacemaker was ah like uh oh i'm blanking uh general Immortus. I love General Morton. Grant Morrison, Doom Patrol guy, right? So I love General Morton. A lot it's like, I love these characters. Or, i mean, I'll tell you, like, Demolition... What are they called? They're not called... They're called... ah I think they're Demolition Team, aren't they? Demolition Team. I'll tell you, here's why I chose Demolition Team, though. It's two parts. One, I love DC's Hulu.
00:52:38
Speaker
I... Marvel's handbook, I'm a Grunewald guy, but I love it. DC has so much history. You've just never seen any of these guys. I didn't know i didn't know until probably like six years ago, even whose villain they were.
00:52:51
Speaker
like I didn't even know. I'd never seen them in a comic. like I'd never seen them in a comic. And why would you? One guy drives a steamroller. like that's It's not a fast steamroller. It's just a normal steamroller. I guess it could steamroll more things than a normal steamroller. But it's like, I thought they were funny. Like, I thought they were, not so much like that, but what is this? But like, I worked in unions. My dad was a union guy. I worked in warehouses for my whole life, you know? And so it's also like, well, these are good jokes.
00:53:18
Speaker
um These are good bits. um But yeah, almost because like, oh, why did you use snowpland? Because I thought it might be the only time. Why is why is there a Blackwing joke? Because that might be the only time I get to make this black, like,
00:53:30
Speaker
all these jokes like why why red B um red B because the same like I loved him in DC's Hootoo I never saw him in a comic but I thought for this I wanted someone who looked ridiculous who wasn't and that could be anybody because it's non-canonical um but I always liked red B and always like what are the worst superpowers it's like what what did you control a single A single bee. I never thought I would ever care so much about red bee without giving any andy spoilers. but Yeah, are Michael the bee? And that's also, like, it's all, I mean, all those characters were chosen for story purposes, but because of the nature, to me, of what a superhero comic is, is that you fight different guys each issue. Those are the best ones.
00:54:10
Speaker
Those are the best ones. Like, you don't fight the same guy for six issues. Like, it's boring. I want different guys, so it's like, well, who are those guys? What is the situation? How does that forward the story? Because that's the most important thing, is What do I want people to feel through this sort of roller coaster and what it takes to do that roller coaster? So it could it was it was them. It could have been anybody.
00:54:30
Speaker
But I thought that's funny. um And it helps also for stuff like that because they sort of have a regular job. The same way Snowflame has like such a specific thing, which is cocaine. And there's not a lot of cocaine superhero stuff.
00:54:43
Speaker
there's not a lot of construction slash union superhero stuff is that it's really easy to make jokes for those because they've never been heard like you know what i mean like and so that matters too like the thing where they're testing they test whether or not the trap's going to work by dropping cats into it like a bag of cats like i think that's like that's hilarious i couldn't have done that if they were just like the rogues gallery you know what i mean like it's different jokes and some of it is like these are very easy jokes but i think also they because peacemaker to me is is sort of He's not, but to me, he's very blue collar sort of superhero where you just put the time in and you kind of either do it or you don't. Like there's there's no Deus Echmackina. Like you can't, you don't have laser beams. aren't go Nothing's gonna save you. So I think having guys who are equally workmanlike are the best um sort of antagonist to to him.
00:55:31
Speaker
Yeah, and Peacemaker, it's one of, like you said, just one of those things that I think is going to be timeless and just like an evergreen book you can pick up at any point. And it's, it's, and anyone that hasn't checked that out, know it's been out for a few years, but check it out. It's, it's, it's good stuff. And I just, yeah. And I, I just could not, I just heard John Cena's voice in my head. That's just so hard not to hear and see him as Peacemaker now that it's just like, he just nails that role so well that just like, He made it. He is the role. He is him and James Gunn are the role. Yeah. Anything that existed before, no one cared about. No, sorry. had Sorry. Cover work. Sorry. This point it just doesn't matter. Well, before I let you go, Kyle, I wanted to, I wanted to ask you at least one
Love for Wrestling and Entertainment
00:56:10
Speaker
or two wrestling questions. yeah yeah Again, I'm a a huge wrestling fan too. So, you know, I knew that you were a wrestling fan, but I don't really know exactly what you follow. Like you mentioned JCW trying that out. So what, what do you follow at this point? What what do you watch? um
00:56:22
Speaker
I mean, because of bandwidth, And because i hate this, because of the tribalism, i you have to be very careful, but I, I, I'm a huge, shaker my three favorite times in wrestling, my three favorite periods of wrestling are the attitude, especially the first half of the attitude era, uh,
00:56:38
Speaker
chikara and lucha underground and chikara was is what brought me back into wrestling really because i was like oh you can do anything just like comics just like comics you can do anything and it's so nice to see people experiment and it's high quality and it's thoughtful and it's well done anyway so this is my favorite i'm a story guy i'd rather i'd rather watch bad wrestling with really good stories than watch five great matches i just i love great matches i do but it's like it's just i'm i'm a writer i like stories i'm here for my soap operas so that being said I had I took a I stepped away from a W because of some really confused. This was a while ago, too, unfortunately, like I'd say.
00:57:17
Speaker
i could tell you when is right before Tony became Tony Storm is right before she became whatever, whatever, whatever week that was. That was a week where I was like, I've had enough. And it was also whenever they didn't, they just suddenly quit booking the acclaim. That was where was like, i can't understand it. But i mean anyone, I love Chikara and there were so many Chikara wrestlers. Like we love Orange Cassidy. We love Brody Lee. We love Eddie Kingston. Anyone from Chikara is like, is my guy. um So I'm not watching AEW, but i do I do pay attention to the results because I am very interested in it and I do like all those guys. But I'm mostly doing WWE, which I, at this point, Raw and SmackDown, if I miss them, I don't care. yeah
00:57:54
Speaker
But I try not to ever miss NXT because I think NXT does. I just wrote this post. I wrote a free post on my Patreon about what I'm watching right now or where you can watch free good wrestling. and And the thing is, like what here's what I want.
00:58:06
Speaker
I want them to clearly be trying to entertain me. I want them to be telling me some kind of story and it doesn't matter if they do it good. Like good is the third thing. I just want to have fun. That's the fourth thing, right? I just want to fun.
00:58:19
Speaker
So that being said, NXT, everyone has a story. is it a good story? Not always. Is every one of those guys clearly trying to entertain me? Yes. Is it in some regards like a high school musical where it's sometimes really bad? Yes. But they're always trying to entertain me.
00:58:33
Speaker
And you can tell from top to bottom, Everyone wants me to have a good time because if I have a good time makes them look great, right? And because of that, I watch NXT. Even though I think today, NXT is a little down. i still watch it, I don't miss it. And then I, if I, I'll put Raw on while I'm working, put SmackDown on while I'm...
00:58:52
Speaker
while working, but I really enjoy JCW, which is an hour, it's free, it's silly. There's a tag team that's Zombie Brothers called The Outbreak. They're actually zombies. They're fighting cocaine and Steven Flo, whose entrance theme is Pearl Jam's Evenflo, but it says Steven Flo. And cocaine gave the zombies cocaine, and they reacted curiously to it. I think listen I'm in I'm in I'm in um oh wait I I it's it's it's only a little juggalo and so when like um when like shaggy too dope or whatever shows up it's kind of more interesting than cringy and the only like juggalo wrestler is a guy named too tough Tony who pours like liquor and it's something yes I've seen this it's not even a good liquor it's not like he's pouring vodka I can't remember what is it's like
00:59:36
Speaker
like garlic rum or something yeah and and he looks like your uncle like he's the like there's only one juggle otherwise it's like can these guys wrestle good are they gonna put on a good match probably not matt cross is on there matt cross who we love um who's getting older but You're not really PCOs on it, but they also like they always have a guest star like Nick Namath, Mr. Anderson, ah John Moore. So they do these like there's constantly these guest stars in the store live now. But every character has a story. Vince Russo is booking it.
01:00:02
Speaker
And it's not WCW Vince Russo. It's um just having fun, like no ego Vince Russo. And because of that, is it great? I don't know. But does it does it give me a story? Yes. Are they trying to entertain me? Yes.
01:00:13
Speaker
Is it fun? Yes. So I watched JCW. I think if you go, the Kyle, that's really interesting, but I'm not going to watch Juggalos. I go, that's fair. That's fair. You're like, I still hate Vince Russo because of WCW and TNA. That's fair. That's fair. I suggest that you watch Triple which is also free on YouTube on Saturdays. um It does everything I want a wrestling show to do. All those things it does well. I just like it when there's a zombie brother. like i like it when it's a little silly. yeah and And Triple a gives me Mr. Iguana and La Parca, but it's still wrestling. like It's not silly. it's There's no... there's never gonna be anyone teleporting or there's never go be some of the laser gun. And JCW, who knows what's gonna happen at any point in time. And I like that sort of stretching, that what you can do in wrestling.
Missed Wrestling Shows: Impact and Interest
01:00:57
Speaker
So those are like probably the three, NXT, AAA, JCW, if I miss those and I do because I'm busy or traveling, I go, oh shit, I missed, I get to watch two episodes. Whereas if like, I missed like last week's, whenever I was traveling,
01:01:12
Speaker
SmackDown, haven't watched it. It's gone. like i hey Nothing happened. You know what i mean? Like, nothing happened. And I have like, someone someone this week was like, did you watch Raw yesterday? today' What is they Tuesday? Today's Wednesday. Wednesday. wednesday um They're like, did you watch Raw? And I'm like, oh i watch it I'm watching it this morning.
01:01:30
Speaker
And they're tell me when you're done. Nothing happened. You know what mean? And I was like, what do you want to about? I was like, oh, Liz got her head bumped. yeah, that's true.
Comedy and Storytelling in Wrestling
01:01:38
Speaker
um I will tell you also, because i'm here I'm here to promote your wrestling, is that Evil Uno put the first 12 episodes of Mystery Wrestling up. They are a delight.
01:01:47
Speaker
They are fun. If you're an AEW guy, there's AEW guys on there. And they're just comedy wrestling. But they are comedy wrestling done perfectly. They're always funny. There's an ongoing arc with a character named Psycho Mike. That's so good. there's an ongoing arc with a guy who's maybe dead. There's a Sasquatch. It's so fun.
01:02:03
Speaker
And I just discovered something called Super Wrestlers, which there are supposedly 12 episodes. I've only found five. I watch all five in about 24 hours. And it's basically Chakara. There's like this He-Man cross-ternia situation where there's an evil king. And the the the main title is a piece of space junk that grants a power to whoever holds it.
01:02:23
Speaker
And it varies what that power is. um the guy who the clear the guy who's a ring announcer also books it uh also clearly writes it also writes all the theme songs and their bangers it does is the wrestling good i would say no though there's a couple guys who who are pretty good um but it's story wrestling you know what i mean like they tell a story and there's a named pubic moose um it just it's just it's literally just fun but it does i think jacara did where it's like it's really smart the fun it's silly but it's not silly without purpose um and it's constantly these stories and these banger songs There's this weird He-Man thing going on. i can't i can't quite There's a belt. There's only two titles. There's the prize, which is it grants you some sort of power.
01:03:03
Speaker
And there's something called the hot potato belt, which is for the worst wrestler. So only two people get belts. And the only way you can get rid of the hot potato is by pinning someone else. like You have to get rid of it by putting it on someone worse. um It's really fun. There's only five episodes. I think they're like two and a half hours long, but maybe two hours.
01:03:19
Speaker
that's one watch Those are my four hard wrecks. Those are the recommendations. i anne to you yeah if you If you want to have fun, listen, if you're like, you know what i love? A five-star match. Kudos, my dude. New Japan exists for you. That's awesome. um Kudos for you. AEW does probably one a month, right? You get a killer.
01:03:36
Speaker
Awesome. I love a good match, but i I love a good match that comes as a result that tells that finishes a story or adds to a story. like Without story, I just don't care. like it's just it's like i haven't subscribed.
Importance of Good Stories in Comics and Wrestling
01:03:49
Speaker
oh I haven't subscribed to a big two comic. Like I don't care about Spider-Man. I don't care about Superman. I care about them in ways. like I care about absolutely Batman. I care about absolutely woman to woman. And because like, what's the stories? If the stories aren't good, I don't, like I quit being a Knicks fan because I quit watching WWE for a long time because they clearly didn't care about me. Like if it's not good, then I don't need to engage. but it's like I think we should be having fun. I think comics, we should be having fun. And I think these things, like those four things plus, NXT, I think NXT is really fun. um Could it be better?
01:04:19
Speaker
Yeah, but shit is that, our is that, is that, who cares? know what mean? Like who cares? It's not, yeah, it's not like, it's not, that's not like even like, oh, well, I'm sure they want it to be good, but it's not really its purpose. It's like, it's, it's kind of there. It exists to give people experience, to put on a fun show. And it's like, you know, it it is different too. So that's, it's different. I love I love it. I'm even doing like, I watch Evolve. I watch Evolve too, but like, that's not, you don't watch, like you don't have to pay attention to that, but that's what I don't
Recommendations for Engaging Wrestling Shows
01:04:46
Speaker
mind putting on. I think it's,
01:04:47
Speaker
That might be 30 minutes long too. like Think about JCW AAA. Is there an hour long? you know what i mean They're hour long and they're free. You're in and you're out and they give you everything you want and you didn't spend six hours of your week being let down. you know i mean so yeah those are my heart Those are my wrecks right now. Those are my hard wrecks right now. Yeah, though I got that's that you're making me put your thing making me think about Chikara now and I got to go back. I've i've watched Chikara, but it's it's been a while.
Wrestling Podcast and Indie Connections
01:05:12
Speaker
I do a wrestling podcast, too. And um it's actually so it's a it is my brother in law's cousin. He's he's still an active indie wrestler at at this point, but he's been wrestling for like 20 years. And he actually he's had a little bit of a run in Chikara, too. So I remember asking him, i interviewed him. and And he had, gosh, who did he tag with at the time? But like probably his biggest match was him and his partner versus Chris Hero and then Claudio Casagnoli in Chikara. I can't remember who was tagging with.
01:05:39
Speaker
Yes. I can't remember who his partner was at the time. What was his wrestling name? Darren Corbin. Oh, Darren Corbin. Hold on. Darren Corbin from Minnesota. Yes. Correct. He wrestled with, I can see him.
01:05:51
Speaker
He wrestled with the same guy every time. And he was, was DCAC. They were ACDC. was it I think he was was it he because he there was this guy they might play Eric It wasn't him. He's another Minnesota guy. but there was i think he had like a storyline brother named Aaron Corbin. for a bit I don't remember if that was him, though. They had an ACDC thing. I can see the guy.
01:06:11
Speaker
I can't remember his name, though. Anyway, I've seen him, too. but anyway but yeah When I interviewed him, he had some kind of some fun Chikara stories. and I want to go back and watch some of that. That's going to it's going to go on my list of things to do.
Reflecting on Chikara and Wrestling Storytelling
01:06:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. for sure You know what I hear the thing about stuff like that, and I feel the same way in regards like peacemaker. They're silly because they're good stories. I guarantee you those hold up because they're not set. They're not doing like timely things like like seeing name the celebrity jelly roll in five years. You're like, what the like name it. Are there like doing things that are current bits yeah and Jakarta didn't do that. Lieutenant Graham didn't do that.
01:06:46
Speaker
um The Attitude Era, I think it was existed so so much as its own thing for so long and had such momentum. like It didn't really do it either, though I could be... I bet there's a bunch of... things I bet if Aiden doesn't hold up, like a lot of Sable stuff doesn't hold up. You know what I mean? I'll be like, oh, guys, fellas, fellas, too far.
01:07:04
Speaker
But yeah, I bet Shakara holds up. And I had IWTV. I just let it go. I had to let it go because I was watching less and less and less. um But like all Shakara is on there. So it's worth it to go watch. I bet if you go...
01:07:16
Speaker
I can never remember when Claudio joined the sort of the German like super group. Right. If you start right, then I guarantee you it's good up until like co whenever they started doing a bunch of shows in the where they had like a training school and those are good too. But that's where it it started to, they started doing like a regular show.
01:07:39
Speaker
um And that's also when like, you know, the guy who was like, had, had like, child porn on his his computer started becoming a champion and stuff. You wouldn't get done before then.
01:07:49
Speaker
Before that, okay. Maybe once Eddie's gone, think real hard about it. You know what mean? Once you don't see Eddie Kingston, think real hard about it. like Okay. that's a good that's That's definitely a good tip because it's like, I want to dive into it more, but I got i got to find like where the good stuff is at this point. but Well, Kyle, I've been, I've been keeping it too long. So thank you again
Supporting Kyle Starks: Books and Social Media
01:08:07
Speaker
for, for the time. And before I, before I let you go, how can people that are listening to this best support you by buying your books, uh, your websites and yeah. Buying the books is no brainer. Talking about the books. If you read something you like, tell someone, you know, like it's just so valuable to, and also like people, that's what we do this for. the talk Like, look at me just all about wrestling. I don't benefit any way from that. Jesus Christ. Like I'm not helping JCW doesn't need me. Um,
01:08:31
Speaker
But when you talk about things like that's how we spread the word on things and that's how we get people excited about things and like I'm always looking for good things. I'm always looking for things and and there's a lot of stuff people don't know about. So when buy the books talk about the books obviously is best buy it from your store before you buy it from me. I am Kyle Starks dot com. I'm the Kyle Starks on all social media.
01:08:47
Speaker
I have a page around where I do a sticker club and I'm there's other stuff that's fairly active, which is patron dot com. backslash Kyle Starks. But yeah, I'm the Kyle Starks everywhere. The Kyle Starks, not the Kyle Starks, but one word.
01:08:59
Speaker
Perfect. Perfect. Well, thank you so much again for coming on, Kyle. We'll have to have you on sometime in the future to talk about whatever you have going on at that point. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. well I'm always glad to be back. I'm always glad to be back. Have me back.
01:09:10
Speaker
All right. yeah Thanks so much. All right. Thanks so much, Kyle. Have a good one.