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Where Sustainability Really Stands
66 Plays2 years ago
Where does the fashion industry really stand on sustainability?
To help answer that question, Ben speaks with Ruth MacGilp, Communications Manager for Fashion Revolution – an organisation comprised of representatives from every sector of the fashion business, who have collectively campaigned for a clean, safe, fair, transparent, and accountable fashion industry for more than a decade.
Together they underline the importance of taking rapid action, and explain the role that innovation in software, hardware, and process can play in enabling fashion brands, retailers, and suppliers to make meaningful progress towards essential targets.
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Transcript
Ethics in Fashion: Fair Pay and Environment
00:00:02
Speaker
Wearing good clothes, wearing clothes that make us feel good, make us look good, and maybe that are good for the environment too, can only be called good if the people who made them were paid fairly for their work.
00:00:18
Speaker
Welcome to the Interline Podcast. Now, this episode doesn't need a long preamble because it's intended to get straight to the heart of one of the biggest questions in fashion today. Where does the industry really stand on sustainability?
Ruth Bagilp on Fashion Revolution's Vision
00:00:30
Speaker
Now, to help answer that question and to break down the different areas where progress is or isn't being made at an industry-wide level, I sat down with Ruth Bagilp.
00:00:39
Speaker
Now, Ruth's the communications manager for Fashion Revolution, an organization comprised of representatives from every sector of the fashion value chain who collectively campaign for a clean, safe, fair, transparent and accountable fashion industry.
Sustainability Progress and Industry Challenges
00:00:54
Speaker
Now, there are some hard truths contained in this episode, and I want to point out before I switch to mine and Ruth's conversation.
00:01:00
Speaker
There are absolutely brands out there, including some we featured on this podcast recently and ones we featured across our different channels before, who are taking bold stances and making real progress on sustainability. At a whole industry level though, the advances that those businesses and others at the Vanguard are making, those are being more than offset by inertia and even regression on the part of others.
00:01:23
Speaker
to the extent the fashion as an industry is making really limited tangible progress towards reducing the environmental and humanitarian harm that it causes.
00:01:33
Speaker
That's important context to bear in mind as you listen to Ruth and me talk, because I'm sure I speak for both of us when I say that, you know, there are clear pathways and solutions that are going to allow fashion brands, retailers, and suppliers to take measurable steps towards the sweeping targets. They're going to be asked to meet whether those targets are self-imposed or whether they're externally enforced. The solutions are out there. The time for action is now now over to me and Ruth.
00:02:03
Speaker
Fashion Revolution's been campaigning for a decade or more now. How much has the world changed in that time? You know, I'm thinking, are the priorities today the same as they were a decade ago? Or has the sense of urgency changed? You know, how has things shifted in that time?
00:02:19
Speaker
A lot has changed in the past 10 years, but at the same time, not enough. Maybe I'll start with the good news. The good news is that since Fashion Revolution formed, which was in the wake of the Rana Plaza factory collapse, we've seen a huge increase in how transparent brands are about where their clothes are made.
Transparency and Supply Chain Disclosures
00:02:41
Speaker
After the Miranda Plaza disaster, rescuers had to literally dig through the rubble for clothing labels in order to link brands to that industrial disaster and hold them accountable. Now we ourselves see brands voluntarily disclosing more information. We see legislation coming in with that kind of transparency and disclosure part of it.
00:03:04
Speaker
But it's still not enough. And our research shows that nearly half of major fashion brands and retailers are still not disclosing any information about their supply chain. So we still don't know the answer fully to who made my clothes. But it's better than it was 10 years ago.
00:03:25
Speaker
I think the other good news is that there's been a huge cultural shift over the past 10 years. I mean, this is evidenced by just how much our movement has grown and how many different people it's reached. It's evidenced by increased interest in lending and repair.
00:03:41
Speaker
in upcycling and secondhand shopping, we're seeing a lot more people straight up interested in sustainable fashion. Whether that translates to real results, I'm not entirely sure about. I saw a report recently about the sustainable development goals and the progress that's been made against each one. And one of those goals
00:04:07
Speaker
responsible consumption and production, which is obviously heavily linked to the fashion industry. So we're seeing a lot of talk about sustainable fashion. We're seeing a lot of promises made by big brands, but we're not seeing real results. Clothing production is still growing. Climate change is still warming. Workers' rights have not increased. We're in a climate crisis.
00:04:30
Speaker
I saw a great book the other day by Alec Leach. The title is The World is on the Fire, but we're still buying shoes. So from a kind of doom and gloom perspective, I'm not sure that enough has changed over the past decade.
00:04:43
Speaker
So thinking then about the progress that has been made in the last decade or so, would you agree that more progress has been made towards mitigating fashion's environmental impact than its humanitarian one?
Environmental Impact vs. Labor Issues
00:04:56
Speaker
So I know the two are intertwined insofar as environmental harm damages communities, and I get that. But I'm thinking specifically here about separating materials and pollution away from labor, away from people.
00:05:10
Speaker
Do you think the needle has moved further in one of those areas than the other and if so, why?
00:05:17
Speaker
As far as the data goes, no, because as I said, fashion productions continue to grow and therefore its energy intensiveness of manufacturing in the whole supply chain has continued to grow. But what we have seen is more and more brands talking about their environmental impact. I think you could go on any major brand luxury or fast fashion website right now and see a page about their recycled materials or their organic cotton.
00:05:45
Speaker
That's because it's easier to market that, and it's easier for them to add in a few special sustainable pieces to their collection than it is to fundamentally look at their business model and how people are treated within their supply chain. It's the idea of the real impacts of what you're doing are hidden from view. Your consumers aren't seeing what's happening in your supply chain, they're just seeing the end product, which is maybe naturally dyed.
00:06:13
Speaker
you know woven from linen and that stuff is great and it does you know it is a small step towards reducing environmental impacts but what those brands aren't addressing is the biggest impact they have on the people that make their clothes. I think they like to talk about environment I don't think as I mentioned that it's making real impact when it's such such a large scale
00:06:37
Speaker
but what we really need to see is the people and those people are usually in the global south, we don't see them, we don't hear their voices, they're they're away, they're on the other side of the world and brands know that and the brand acts as a sort of barrier between us as the people that wear the clothes and them as the people that make them and obviously these two issues are um are interconnected you know we
00:07:07
Speaker
The areas of Bangladesh that are most prone to flooding as a result of climate change are the very same areas where the ready-made garment factories are.
EU Legislation for Fair Wages
00:07:19
Speaker
This isn't a coincidence that the places that are going to feel climate change the most are also the places that are being exploited on a humanitarian level by the fashion industry.
00:07:30
Speaker
Thinking about what you were talking about there, I want to talk a little bit about Fashion Revolutions, you know, the mantra of good clothes and fair pay. Because I think you're right that a lot of the industry finds it much easier to talk about swapping a material out for a slightly more sustainable or regenerative material. They find it a lot harder to talk about and to take action and to find a justification for the labour side of things. Because I think
00:07:59
Speaker
a lot of brands would agree in principle good clothes fair pay but they find it hard to justify in practice because increased labor costs erode margins and that's one of the primary areas where you get the cold calculating commercial metrics side of fashion where that clashes with its vital humanitarian impact. In your opinion how should the industry be thinking about and framing the necessity to act in that area where
00:08:24
Speaker
Where human rights and where those voices those under heard voices you're talking about where they conflict with business models Sure, so I mean fundamentally if a business cannot pay a living wage to its workers and
00:08:39
Speaker
it should not exist. You know, it's not a financially sustainable business. They're not doing business well, because they're not managing to fund, you know, the people that create their products and their flow create their wealth. So from that point of view, we believe that a living wage is a fundamental human right. And it's actually
00:09:04
Speaker
the UN describes it as such as well. And we also believe that wearing good clothes, wearing clothes that make us feel good, make us look good, and maybe that are good for the environment too, can only be called good if the people who made them were paid fairly for their work.
00:09:22
Speaker
And I think anyone who's ever made a piece of clothing or tried to know just how hard work that is, it's not a skilled labour, it's extremely resource intensive labour that takes an extremely skilled eye and it's exhausting work.
00:09:38
Speaker
So as a result of that we've been working on a campaign called Good Clothes Fair Pay which is calling on the EU to enact legislation that would require any brand selling within the EU to ensure living wages are paid throughout their supply chain. Now we believe that this legislation is necessary because
00:10:00
Speaker
We can't wait for brands to take voluntary measures. You know, we've been waiting for 10 years and unfortunately that progress hasn't been made. So we really do believe that we need a hard and fast rule here. But an important part of this campaign and a question we get a lot is, okay, if we paid the workers more, wouldn't that mean that me as a consumer would end up paying a lot more for my clothes? And that's a myth because if you look at the breakdown of how brands cost their items,
00:10:31
Speaker
over 75% of the cost of a £20 t-shirt, for example, is the brand margin and it's the retail market. A really tiny percentage of that t-shirt is labour costs and an even smaller part of that percentage is actually going to the workers themselves. It goes to the factory, it's split up between the workers and there's lots of different stages in the supply chain, not just cutting and sewing, but all the way down to the raw material too.
Supply Chain Transparency and Accountability
00:11:01
Speaker
So the idea that brands need to charge consumers more for paying a fair wage to their workers is fundamentally wrong. They have it within their power, within their billions of profits, to increase that margin ever so slightly. And it really doesn't take that much. A living wage is really the bare minimum that a worker should be receiving. Thinking ahead then, what we're going to need when we're starting to talk about greater disclosure is,
00:11:31
Speaker
more in the way of accountability and transparency, re-architecting value chains in a way that incorporates both of those things as standard.
00:11:40
Speaker
I'm curious to try and pin this down in a way and to say, what does it really mean to build accountability and transparency into a fashion value chain? Who specifically needs to be held to account? What raw information do they need to gather and act on if they're going to meet the heightened disclosure requirements that define today and the very near future? Based on that past answer you've just given, the answer would be the brand. The person that the consumer is ultimately buying from is the one that should be held to account.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah so I mean it goes without saying that having a fully transparent supply chain is no mean feat. It's a very big task to take on but we do believe that it's the biggest brands and retailers and particularly the world's 250 largest brands that we look at and target that have the power but also the resources and the influence to do so.
00:12:37
Speaker
So what we really need to see is them being transparent, not just about.
00:12:43
Speaker
their own operations, but about their entire supply chain. And as he knows fashion, the fashion supply chain is pretty complex. There's a lot of outsourcing and subcontracting and brands really need to consolidate that and make sure they know their products are fully traceable. We see a lot of brands talking about, as I said, being net zero, but you look into the small print and it's about their own operations, their retail stores, their offices and their warehouses.
00:13:10
Speaker
we need to see it go all the way back to the fiber level. And if brands really don't know where to start, we every year cut out our fashion transparency index. We make the methodology that we use to review brands completely open source. So a lot of those brands really use that as a template to see where they should be disclosing, not just, okay, here's a factory that we source our leather bags from.
00:13:35
Speaker
But what is the gender makeup and the ethnic makeup of that factory? Do those workers have the right to organize? Do they have the right to speak up? Is there data on gender-based violence? We go right into the weeds of what needs to be disclosed. The reason for that, as you say, is quite simply to hold them accountable to their claims. You can't claim something sustainable if you don't have the data to back it up, and that goes for social as well as environmental issues.
Innovations in Materials vs. Systemic Issues
00:14:07
Speaker
That's a perfect answer. Thank you. Shifting gears a bit from a fabric sourcing perspective, what's your take on alternative materials, biofabrication, you know, other routes to sidestep the traditional kind of raw material and harvesting supply chain? Do you think those are likely to become scalable and cost effective enough to really become viable? Or are we looking here at just one small component of a much broader picture that needs to include more in the way of
00:14:34
Speaker
regenerative agriculture, environmental stewardship and so on. I think you should always be wary when
00:14:43
Speaker
a solution is put forward as a silver bullet because there is no one innovation that's going to save the fashion industry from itself. That's not to say that innovation isn't crucial and I truly find it inspiring just how many new materials, new manufacturing methods, etc. are out there on the market.
00:15:05
Speaker
And I think they should continue to be invested in. That doesn't mean that the work on the other side should stop. You know, millions of people rely on cotton farming, for example, as their source of livelihoods. That is not going to go away with a mushy leather that only luxury brands can afford.
00:15:24
Speaker
so we really need to be hitting it from all sides. Again, I do think it is inspiring to see particularly smaller brands take up these innovations. We need to see more of it. We need them to scale and make them more cost-effective. But for the average brand, the average consumer, and the average worker, fashion will continue to be pretty old-fashioned in the materials it uses and the methods it uses to manufacture them. It's an extremely resource-intensive,
00:15:52
Speaker
industry you know it's every piece of clothing accessory etcetera is handmade you know this we don't yet have 3d printing or automation down so i'd like to see more of the energy that goes towards these innovations in the press for example go towards the real people that are assuring the burden of the fashion supply chain and also to
00:16:17
Speaker
to look at which innovations are being funded and which ones aren't because at Fashion Revolution for example we have teams in 88 different countries around the world and a lot of really incredible solutions are coming from historically overlooked places. We have some incredible circular denim technology and startups happening in Nigeria in a project we've just seen from our Fashion Revolution Nigeria team and
00:16:44
Speaker
These aren't the ones getting funded by all that new capital coming in. It tends to be the same companies from the global north. So we also need to look at what we mean by innovation and whether we can look to more traditional or low-tech solutions that people in the global south have been doing for many years, regenerative agriculture being one of them, and invest in those as well.
00:17:09
Speaker
That's a really great point. I would hold our hands up and say that we've historically been a little too focused on that particular sort of innovation that you mentioned. There is so much more out there under that spectrum that's likely to have a more significant impact just because of where it's focused and just because of where it is. As you said, there's a huge amount of continuity in the way that fashion has always worked and the materials it's always used.
00:17:35
Speaker
If you're able to make big changes there based on a different type of invention, a different type of innovation, then that's just as valid as new software, new processes, new materials and things that are being developed, as you said, in the global north. Yes, exactly. I can't remember who it was, but recently there was an article about
00:17:56
Speaker
cotton scraps being used as fertilizer back in cotton fields. And I just found that really fascinating because we talk a lot about circular technology and new recycling technology, but that's really getting back to the basics of farming and the soil. And that's really where all fashion comes from the ground, whether it's oil or soil. So I think we need to broaden our definition of innovation and also look with a critical eye about where some of that funding is going.
00:18:26
Speaker
So at Fashion Revolution, you advocate for radical revolutionary change, which the Interline agrees is needed. So far, there's a lot of quite iterative work taking place, like you said, a lot of small progress. Do you see that as sort of skirting around the edges of the problem? Or does every step in the right direction count for something?
Need for Radical Changes in Fashion
00:18:46
Speaker
I think whether it's done by a brand or an individual, every small step does matter. And I think it's really easy when you work in this field to fall into a little bit of doom and gloom about the climate and about social inequality, when there are things to be celebrated and we need to keep that momentum up, we need to keep that level of hope up. However, as I said before, I think it's about looking at things critically. If a brand is making a small change,
00:19:17
Speaker
recycled polyester, for example, what aren't they investing in? What aren't they talking about? And I think when you say that we advocate for radical change, I don't think what we're doing is extreme. What we're calling for is not extreme, and it's not something that's happening at the margins. But if you look at the actual original root, I'm quite a linguistic nerd, and the root of the word radical is actually about the root of something.
00:19:45
Speaker
of an issue. So it's not about what's extreme or on the margins, it's about what is the root of the problem here in the fashion industry and can it be solved by a few pairs of recycled polyester leggings? I would guess probably not. I think what we're really looking at is the fundamental business model of fashion which has always been capitalism's favorite child because by nature it encourages people to consume new constantly.
00:20:13
Speaker
we need to see systemic change in the way that we as consumers look at what we wear and why and we also need to see systemic change in how these brands operate with profit as their main motive to infinitely grow. I don't think what we're calling for is out of the question. We're not actually asking for the world, we're really asking for the better minimum.
00:20:37
Speaker
Your small but perfectly formed program, I like the name of it because it suggests that it's simpler for smaller organizations to make the kinds of radical, by its proper definition, shifts that are needed. What do you think is holding the larger brands back? Is it an issue of complexity, inertia, profit, something deeper, something more complex than that?
00:21:02
Speaker
I think the main thing to keep in mind is that all brands, all organizations are run by people. You know, there are obviously these legal entities and we sort of, we talk about them as like they and we, but ultimately it's made up of people making decisions. And we meet with, you know, sustainability professionals at Big Brands, for example.
00:21:27
Speaker
These are well-meaning people, you know, that they're just like you and me. They don't want their work to be funding exploitation and environmental harm.
00:21:38
Speaker
But when it feeds right up to the top, to the executives and most importantly to the shareholders, their incentive is profit. Their bottom line is profit. The sustainability stuff, I mean, it's a marketing tool and it's avoiding a PR crisis. So the reason that small brands might find it easier to make these more fundamental shifts is because
00:22:01
Speaker
they're not on the stock market beholden to shareholders. It might just be one or two people at the top making those decisions. By that nature, there's a lot more humanity in it. There's a lot more empathy towards the people that are making their products. But it's also a case of complexity. Like we were saying, global supply chains from the fiber all the way to the store,
00:22:26
Speaker
There can be hundreds of steps in between with different outsourcing and subcontracting going on in between. These complex supply chains are not easy. It's not easy for brands to map their supply chain. It's much easier if you're a small brand to do so. It's not that we're saying, oh, it should be easy, but it's that it should be an obligation.
00:22:47
Speaker
And then I guess the only other thing is risk. So if you're a large brand, you're taking a big risk. We've seen the news recently with Patagonia changing up how financially accountable they are. And that's a big change. That's a big risk that they're opening themselves up to. For a small brand, they're more adaptive to those risks.
00:23:09
Speaker
and I think they're braver, they're bolder. A lot of brands out there really do have the resources to take these risks and to invest big in real positive change, but they're not being bold enough. They're scared and we see that from the individual level of these people that work in the brands too.
Artisanal Expertise vs. Digital Trends
00:23:30
Speaker
I had a quick look through the Fashion Revolution Manifesto and there's a section there that resonated with me around making sure that fashion also honours the artisan, it honours the expertise and the creativity that exists throughout the value chain. And obviously there's the fundamental action that's required around environmental and ethical impact we talked about
00:23:50
Speaker
Right now, one of the hottest topics in fashion is clearly digital fashion. You've got Web3 advocates who are expending a lot of time and energy on extolling the virtues of a digital-only fashion, not as a replacement for physical, but as a supplement to it, as a separate business model.
00:24:07
Speaker
And there are other people talking about that as being a quick route to progress on both of those areas. You know, digital garments don't need materials or labour, and they open up a new frontier for creative expression and, you know, artisanal growth. Some might say that fashion's using digital, that digital fashion opportunity is a bit of a distraction from the deep seated issues that characterise the physical supply chain. What's your take on all that? I am so torn on this issue because digital
00:24:37
Speaker
Fashion does excite me in some ways. I think the amount of resources that are spent on physical fashion shows, for example, being done in a digital way like we saw during COVID is a good thing for the planet. And I think in certain situations where virtual outfits are worn by influences for just an Instagram post, that's great.
00:25:02
Speaker
But ultimately, we all need to wear clothes until we reach our full nudist, sustainable society. And ultimately, all fashion, as I said, is handmade. It's a labor intensive industry. But not only that,
00:25:17
Speaker
Fashion is a really powerful form of carrying culture. Every major culture, you know, throughout history and throughout the world has garments or textiles or designs or motifs that mean something to that culture, that means something to the people that make it and the people that wear it. And that's what's so beautiful about clothing. You know, you go to any museum, there'll be
00:25:45
Speaker
outfits worn by different people throughout the generations on display. And that's because it's an artifact. It tells a story and mirrors our history. We don't have that same feeling with digital fashion. I don't think most fashion lovers really connect with digital in that same way, because I know for me, I got into fashion because I'm so fascinated how a yarn could turn into
00:26:10
Speaker
a gown, you know, just that simple process of weaving fabric is still to me the most high tech and interesting thing there is about this industry. And then we have all these people not only relying on labor from
00:26:26
Speaker
making mass manufactured garments, but also the artisans, as we say, who really are using fashion as a medium to tell their story and to tell their history and to hold on to those elements of culture.
00:26:41
Speaker
I haven't yet seen digital fashion be able to communicate something in the same way that touching a piece of embroidery has ever done to me, but I'm not saying that will never happen, but I don't think it's quite there yet. I think there are obviously issues to be addressed in the fiscal supply chain and digital is not going to solve them. A government worker is
00:27:06
Speaker
probably not going to have access to Web3. And this technology is being used by a certain group of people. It's not yet mainstream. So my hope is paused on that one. I'm not a total cynic about it, but I think we really need to get back to those fundamentals, paying a living wage, slowing down production, and really looking at the fundamental business model of the fiscal supply chain.
00:27:35
Speaker
That's a really good conclusion. I think conflicted accurately describes my perspective on a lot of that as well. I see the potential, but I also see the sheer amount of work that still needs to be done in physical supply chains. I think you and I are probably aligned in that feeling. I do think as well something I forgot to mention is that
00:27:58
Speaker
You know, digital and traditional going hand in hand has had some amazing results. So, you know, with pattern design, for example, designers being able to use 3D modeling to design clothing saves so much textile waste in terms of making samples.
00:28:17
Speaker
You know, we see digital really enabling more sustainable physical fashion. We see the creation of digital databases for, you know, traditional Indigenous design, for example. And I think the two can really go hand in hand. And what's frustrating is when the press kind of pits the two against each other as if one's going to win out. And actually, I think there's always going to be a combination of both.
00:28:41
Speaker
And finally, just thinking for the brands and retailers who are going to be listening to this episode, what would you recommend as being the most meaningful action they could take in the next 12 months or so to make some measurable progress where it matters the most?
People-Centric Change in Fashion Supply Chains
00:28:55
Speaker
That is a big question. There's a lot of things on our wish list, I think, for brands. But ultimately, I think it should come down to listening to the people that make your clothes and products. They create your brand. Without them, there is no brand.
00:29:13
Speaker
I think a lot of brands talk about empowering their consumers and their consumers being part of their community and really listening to them. But you need to listen to the workers as well. Their voices are out there, they're begging for a platform and they're begging for brands to listen to them.
00:29:30
Speaker
If the brands need help in connecting to those places, we're here. There's dozens of organizations doing incredible work on the ground. It's not about starting from scratch, but I think if brands really took the time to learn more about the people and the real lives behind their products, I think that human level of empathy and connection will grow and hopefully lead to them being
00:29:59
Speaker
being speedier with how they implement their living wage policies, their ethical work policies, et cetera, because these policies are very dehumanized. I think what we'd really like to see is brands recognize the people and not just the product. That brings us to the end of another episode, one that I hope has inspired you to evaluate where your organization really stands on sustainability.
00:30:24
Speaker
Next episode, we're going to be changing gear and we're going to be focusing on digital product creation. And that's going to be time to coincide with the publication of our first ever DPC report. So look for both of those things on the Interline in November. For now, thanks for listening and I'll speak to you again soon.