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E109: The Babes In The Woods
1.5k Plays4 years ago
In 1953, Stanley Park, ever known for its beauty and its attractions, also became known for a darker reason-- the discovery of the remains of two murdered children. Despite the odd items found at the crime scene, and despite multiple witness accounts, this case remains one of Vancouver’s longest-running cold cases. Will we ever be able to call the children by their names and finally allow them to find peace?
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Transcript
Podcast Inspiration and Buzzsprout Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuth Hounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own. Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are. When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment,
00:00:30
Speaker
just a computer microphone, some quiet space, and each other. We knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends and from where our listeners hail. Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today.
00:00:59
Speaker
If you use our Coffee and Cases referral code, 709-643, linked on Facebook and in our show notes, not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Now, it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Stanley Park: A Historical and Haunting Landmark
00:01:30
Speaker
Most people around the globe know that one thing you can do in New York City is explore Central Park. What I didn't know is that there's a park in Canada in Vancouver, British Columbia that is one fifth larger than Central Park. This park, Stanley Park, draws over eight million visitors a year to its beaches, trails and green space.
00:01:56
Speaker
While there are modern attractions like an aquarium and a miniature train, most of the park remains the same as it looked in 1886 when it was given its name. It's a place where you can step back in time. For example, you might visit Stanley Park's Hollow Tree.
00:02:16
Speaker
This hollow tree is actually a Western red cedar tree stump that is at least 800 years old. If you search the tree, you can find photographs of individuals standing in its hollow heart from as early as the 1890s. You'll see horses inside, carriages, cars, bicycles, and even an elephant to show the tree's size.
00:02:43
Speaker
It's obvious all of the beauty and wonder that the park has to offer. But there's also a side that's hidden. Areas of brush and foliage off the path where you can step and be secluded from the world. Just as many other places that seem to glint in the light of possibility, as Joseph Conrad's character Marlowe so appropriately noted, this also has been one of the dark places of the earth.
Podcast Mission and Patreon Launch
00:03:13
Speaker
in this same landscape of wonder have been bone chilling unexplainable sightings, odd noises that set one's teeth on edge. And it is also the location of one of Vancouver's longest running unsolved murder cases. This is the story of the babes in the woods.
00:04:13
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Alison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:04:22
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page.
00:04:38
Speaker
Coffee and Cases podcast and to follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases podcast. Because as these families know, conversation helps to keep their missing family member in the public consciousness, helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week. Allison, T minus two weeks until the launch of Patreon.
00:05:06
Speaker
Oh my gosh, you guys, we are so close. Maggie and I just recorded another mini episode today for you guys, and you will have access to that mini episode and others as soon as you sign up.
00:05:22
Speaker
So as soon as December 16th hits, you need to get Patreon so you'll have immediate access to three mini episodes with two more that will be posted in the last two weeks of December. So that's even more content in addition to our weekly episodes to keep you company as you drive or wrap your gifts or whatever.
00:05:42
Speaker
Yes, and just as a reminder, Maggie and I will not be covering unsolved cases in our Patreon because we want to get those cases out to as many people as possible. Instead, we will be discussing solved cases. Some of which are crazy. Yes, they are. We will be discussing popular cases and
00:06:06
Speaker
You will hear personal stories and other topics that will make you laugh, make you creeped out, and make you feel warm and tingly. So in essence, our Patreon is just what you need.
00:06:18
Speaker
Right. It will do your soul some good. So we'll be posting about three to four mini episodes each month. Those will be around 15 to 20 minutes in length over like a range of different topics. Once we get to the 100 patrons, we'll release our first full length episode a month. And I hope that we get there soon because the first one is a good one. Yes. So mark your calendars for December 16th.
00:06:46
Speaker
Be one of those first 100 because that will mean that you will get all of the perks of the $8 level for only $5 a month. And that includes a shout out on the show. So if you're feeling in the mood to give yourself a little gift for getting through the holiday,
00:07:01
Speaker
Or if you're looking for the perfect gift for your true crime living friend, go ahead and sign up. And if you want a happy 2022, which is so weird to say, card from Allison and me, sign up for one of the higher tiers, which will also get you a discount on merchandise. Yeah. And despite these new and exciting additions here at Coffee and Cases,
00:07:24
Speaker
Nothing about our weekly cases will change. Maggie and I will still be here every week on your favorite podcasting app with our cases as normal, trying to spread the word about lesser known cases to help these families as much as we possibly can. Speaking of which, let's get started. Okay.
Discovery of Remains and Initial Investigation
00:07:43
Speaker
Albert Tong.
00:07:45
Speaker
was a Stanley Park board employee, a gardener, who had been given a job to clear some of the underbrush so new trees could be planted near Beaver Lake in Stanley Park. Which, by the way, how awesome did that park sound? Yeah, like I kind of want to go. I mean, I do love Canada, so. You really do. So yet another like Canadian, you know, what's the word I'm looking for?
00:08:14
Speaker
It's a perk, I think. It's like it's drawing me in. Exactly. And that hollow tree. You should look up the pictures, especially the elephant one. So this particular day when Tong was clearing the underbrush, it was on January 14th, 1953. Expecting, I'm sure, to go out, get the job complete, then head inside to a nice warm fire,
00:08:44
Speaker
what he saw Maggie was actually more chilling than the outside temperature. According to the Vancouver Police Museum, Tong noticed that as he walked, the sound changed to something underfoot that he'd never heard before. It's like he's walking along and all of a sudden something that sounds different. So not like crunching leaves, but like something different.
00:09:12
Speaker
So he starts looking, and deep in the foliage, moving that underbrush to see what had made that curious noise, he found skeletal remains. Oh, he'd been walking on people's bones. Yes, that was the noise. So Tong immediately alerted authorities to what he had stumbled upon, and the official investigation was underway by the very next day.
00:09:40
Speaker
After digging away, because, you know, you're finding skeletal remains, these particular skeletal remains were not... How do I want to phrase this? Fresh? They weren't close to the surface? Correct. So once the investigation began, they actually had to dig away layers of tree limbs, decaying plant life and dirt.
00:10:05
Speaker
until finally the investigator saw evidence of a gruesome crime. There were the remains, Maggie, of two small children. Their bodies were obviously carefully placed.
00:10:22
Speaker
they were arranged so that their bodies were in a straight line with the soles of their feet touching and their heads in opposite directions. That's almost kind of like ritualistic or something. That's weird. Yeah. So this was not haphazard. Yeah. They weren't just thrown there.
00:10:44
Speaker
Right. And there were some other oddities. So in addition to the way their bodies were arranged, their bodies were also covered by a lady's fur coat. That's strange. The children had on these brown Oxford shoes with white rubber soles. The shoes had actually not decayed as much, I guess because they were made out of leather. Yeah.
00:11:12
Speaker
but most of their clothing had decayed over time to the point that like only fragments remained like a child's belt and a zipper. The older of the two children also had a plate bracelet with like animals pictured on it. Well, I feel like that would be like easily like recognizable to somebody who maybe knew this child.
00:11:40
Speaker
one would think. Let me tell you about some other things that they found because that wasn't all. Upon closer inspection of the area, police also found some other interesting items. They found a blue and white lunch tin, almost like the children had come out for a picnic lunch.
00:12:07
Speaker
which is sad to me, like, you know, just thinking that these children, you know, might have been thinking that they're gonna like, you know, frolic around in the grass and eat their little sandwiches outside. Yeah, it's like the Snapchat murders that we covered forever ago, where they're just like on an innocent hike and then they just disappear. Right. So they have this like picnic lunch.
00:12:31
Speaker
And law enforcement also found these like leather aviator helmets, the ones that have the little like goggles up on top, like the hat that Snoopy wears and the cartoon strip when he's like acting like he's flying on top of his doghouse. Were they children's ones, like toy ones or were they like? Yes, they were children's size. Okay.
00:12:53
Speaker
So again, like I think that makes it hard for me because I'm just picturing them like almost kind of playing like they're air pilots with these aviator helmets on. Yeah. But they also found a single woman's shoe size seven and a half. Does it maybe belong to the same lady that owned the fur coat? Potentially.
00:13:23
Speaker
But the most horrifying thing that they found, Maggie, was a hatchet with a broken handle. This hatchet, I read in most sources, they all said it was the kind of hatchet that a lather or a wooden shingle maker might use. And obviously I know what I had to look it up because obviously I know a shingle goes on your roof and they used to be made out of wood.
00:13:53
Speaker
But a lather, I don't, it's, it's kind of like somebody who today would install drywall. But I don't know if you've seen old houses where like, instead, yeah, it's like the thin strips of wood and the, those are called a lathe and it has like plaster in between. So this axe was one that looked like it would belong to one of those two professions.
00:14:23
Speaker
Okay. But this axe had been used for much more sinister purposes because one of the children had an injury to the back of the head in the same size and shape as the axe blade. Like I just don't understand who would kill anybody but let alone hit a child
00:14:52
Speaker
I know. I know.
00:14:56
Speaker
I can't, I can't even imagine. And the other child didn't fare any better. The other child had been hit in the back of the head with the handle of the axe. No, I think I would rather get the blade. Right. So, like, you know, kind of what you were saying, Maggie, like, as you can imagine, this kind of scene, it just prompts more questions. Like, who could commit and act this heinous, especially to children? And most importantly,
00:15:26
Speaker
Who were these children? Yeah, because it's like the boy in the box. I feel like somebody should be missing you. If you've been there long enough that you've been, like you're just bones, like surely somebody's been looking for these kids. Yeah. But where law enforcement didn't have any names to report, the media quickly dubbed the children
00:15:54
Speaker
the quote babes in the woods. And Maggie, they truly were babies. When a doctor was called to examine the scene, he deduced based upon the clothing at the scene and the size of the skeletons, that these were the remains of a young boy and a young girl, both under 10 years old. So maybe siblings.
00:16:20
Speaker
That is what they assume, yes. And based upon the level of decay, the amount of the greenery growth that was over the remains, and the style of clothing, the doctor also estimated that their remains had been hidden in the foliage there for around five years. OK, so somebody should be looking for these kids. So it should be easy to identify who they are. But I know that's not what the case is.
00:16:48
Speaker
Oh, no. Since we're still calling it the babes in the woods. Right. The shoes, and that was probably the biggest indicator to the doctor of the time frame because they believed that that particular type of leather shoe wasn't sold in Canada until after World War II, which had ended in 1945. And so that kind of gave them a guide. So based upon the evidence at the scene, the police ruled
00:17:17
Speaker
that the two children had likely been murdered there somewhere around the fall of 1947. And remember, we're in 1953. Yeah, so they've been there for a while. Yes, yeah.
00:17:36
Speaker
So immediately police launched this large scale investigation. I mean, they began looking for, like you said, reports of a missing brother and sister, right? So they're like, somebody has to have reported these two missing. Right. It makes sense. Like, yeah. Surely they came from somebody's family that would be looking for them.
00:18:00
Speaker
The police also requested school records to find out, like, were there any students who had stopped attending? Which I thought was really strange to see. That's really good. Yeah. And hundreds of tips came in.
DNA Analysis and Case Reopening
00:18:13
Speaker
Most involved sightings of a woman entering the woods with a boy and a girl and carrying a hatchet. Okay, so the jacket, the shoe. Mm-hmm. And sightings. Could have all been to this woman, yeah.
00:18:27
Speaker
Right. One caller who said that she had seen the trio, the woman and the two children noted that when the mother noticed her looking at them, that she had taken the hatchet and like acted like she was cutting down some branches. So do we think that this woman is their mother? Right. That is the assumption that everybody makes looking at the scene. Okay. In the end,
00:18:57
Speaker
Law enforcement's investigation was so large scale that Vancouver officers were following leads not only in Canada, but also in the United States, Scotland, Austria, and Venezuela. All of which I want to go to one day. Austria is like, it's up there on the list because I love the sound of music and I want to go there. Yeah, so I mean,
00:19:26
Speaker
Well, you could become a detective. There we go. Maybe you would get to go. Perfect. You like to try to solve crimes. So it's a win-win. So they actually, I mean, that's pretty large scale, you know, for 1950s. And I'm sure it wasn't cheap either. Yeah. But Maggie, they found nothing.
00:19:51
Speaker
Like no matter how hard they looked, how many tips they followed, nor how many witnesses came forward believing to have information, they could never discover the identity of the two children, nor any further clues about who could have killed them. I feel like that's a common theme for us. It is. Yeah, it definitely is. But there are actually many reasons why
00:20:21
Speaker
they struggled to find answers. And some of those reasons had to do with mistakes in the original investigation, as well as details that could only have been uncovered with advancing technology. Right, like DNA or something like that. Exactly.
00:20:42
Speaker
One investigator, Brian Honeyborn, refused to give up the search for the identity of the babes in the woods and reopened the investigation in 1998. I was eight years old. Yeah. So he's like, I am not giving up until I find out what happened. And by 1998, we should be able to like get some DNA, like, you know, maybe from their teeth or something.
00:21:12
Speaker
Well, I'm glad you said that because, and I'm sure you probably thought that because of the boy in the box and because that's how they got the DNA from him. And that was exactly what Honeyborne did. One of the first things he did was to call a forensic dentist to extract DNA from the children's teeth to send that DNA off for testing. And what they found, Maggie, was that these were not the remains of a boy and a girl.
00:21:42
Speaker
but of two boys. Well, like, isn't that obvious, though? Like, aren't pelvic bones in men and women shaped differently? Like, aren't there obvious details that would point that it's a girl versus a boy? I mean, I could be completely wrong. I'm not like I think so because they're so young. Maybe that's change happens like after puberty or something. Yeah. Yeah. And so
00:22:12
Speaker
This was actually two boys, not a boy and a girl. And you brought up earlier like you thought that they could be siblings. And this DNA testing actually did prove that they were half brothers. So they had the same mother, but different fathers. DNA testing also showed that they were between six and 10 when they were murdered.
00:22:39
Speaker
Now here was the problem though, like obviously all of the initial searching was for a boy and a girl. Yes. So like you're checking all these school records for a boy and a girl, but really it was a boy and a boy. Right. And so like all these leads that had come in, like there were tips that came in Maggie that involved two boys that law enforcement never explored because they were like, well, that's not what we're looking for.
00:23:06
Speaker
I know. So you should have been open-minded though until you knew for sure. Well, I mean, I guess, you know, you bring in this doctor. That's true. You think it's credible. Right. And so obviously like those initial problems hindered the investigation.
00:23:24
Speaker
But then, you know, at least with DNA, we now like know for sure, like these were two boys and they were brothers. Additionally, law enforcement learned that they may have also been wrong about the date. Because remember that they were basing it on the style of the shoe. Right. Yeah. And they were like, that wasn't sold in Canada until after World War Two. Well, later on, they found out, well, it had been sold earlier.
00:23:54
Speaker
So now police believe that the murder of the two young boys might have happened as late as 1949 or 50 or as early as 1944. That's a large span of time.
00:24:12
Speaker
It really is. Yeah, because now we've got, you know, instead of like narrowing it down to a season of a particular year, now you're like, well, I mean, it could be within the like the six year range. Yeah. While Honeyborne was able to gain DNA from the young children's teeth, a lot of the other evidence that they had originally collected
00:24:37
Speaker
was now unusable when he reopened the investigation because even though nobody seems to be able to recall how it got there, the evidence from this crime scene had been sent in the 1980s to the Vancouver Police Museum where it was on display. But of course, contaminating the evidence that was left. I hope y'all could see my face.
00:25:05
Speaker
Did they officially close the case in the 1980s? Nope. So then why would you donate active evidence to a museum? Correct. I do not know. And even though this museum is named the Vancouver Police Museum, it is not affiliated with the Vancouver Police.
00:25:27
Speaker
That's weird. That'd be like going to the FBI building and it'd be like, we're not really part of FBI. We just kind of say it. We're the Krispy Kreme undercover. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was super weird. And of course now, like all of that evidence is contaminated. So in an act that was actually criticized by many, when Honeyborne
00:25:54
Speaker
reopened the investigation. Obviously, he sent the DNA that was extracted from the teeth to get it tested, and he kept a few of the remaining bones, but he took the rest of the remains of the two children, and he cremated them. Why?
00:26:15
Speaker
I'll get to his reason in a second, but he had them cremated and he scattered their ashes across the water near Kits Point in British Columbia. Again, if you could see my face, why? Yeah.
00:26:30
Speaker
I think a lot of people felt like you're feeling Maggie, a lot of people question like, why would you do that? You're potentially destroying other evidence, you know? And even people who weren't even upset about the cremation part, they were like, why would you not scatter their remains where they were found? Like, why would you take a place? That doesn't sound weird to me. Like, I wouldn't want to be buried where I died. Yeah.
00:26:59
Speaker
In response to those criticisms, Honeyborne noted that he did save crucial parts of the bone for future DNA testing. So he did like have extracted from the bones what they would need for future DNA testing. And then of the burial or the scattering of the ashes in the water, he said, as cited in the Doe Network information about the case, quote, these kids were murdered there.
00:27:27
Speaker
Why would they want to be buried there?" Which is what you just said. And so I think this was his effort to give some peace. Let them have peace, yeah.
00:27:42
Speaker
In 2018, police decided to try the DNA again. So basically all we got from the first time was it was two boys.
Modern Techniques and Ongoing Investigation
00:27:52
Speaker
We could clarify their ages a little bit more between six and 10, and we knew that they were half brothers, but we still don't know who they are.
00:28:02
Speaker
So in 2018 police tried the DNA again. This time they submitted it to DNA databases like Ancestry.com 23andme.com in an attempt to like construct a genetic tree because like that kind of DNA testing is different because they're not they're they aren't looking to necessarily identify the boys from the DNA but to find like familial partial matches. Yeah.
00:28:32
Speaker
According to an article in the Vancouver Sun by Scott Brown from May 18th of 2021, so this year, Vancouver police are still trying to use what DNA they have to find the answers. So they didn't really find much of anything from that 2018 attempt, but they have recently partnered with a forensic genetic genealogist company,
00:29:02
Speaker
called Redgrave Research Forensic Services to attempt to kind of reconstruct genetically their family tree. So what's that one one tree that one tv show that the principal at your school loves and that's what she does she like uses like ancestry or whatever dot com and she finds like
00:29:28
Speaker
murderers and rapists that way. They need to contact that lady. Is it the genetic detective? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They need to contact her.
00:29:38
Speaker
I'm also hoping that this new company, this genetic genealogist company can find something because they just got it recently. Yeah. Let's give them some time. Yeah. According to that same article in the Vancouver Sun, spokesperson, Sergeant Steve Addison also remains hopeful, Maggie. He said,
00:30:02
Speaker
We still don't know who these boys were, why they were in Vancouver or who killed them. But we hope genealogical testing will finally give us the answers we've been looking for. We're hoping this will help us identify the boys to give them a name as well as help us understand who may have been responsible for this. We're quite realistic.
00:30:28
Speaker
that it's quite likely that the person who did kill these boys is no longer alive. However, that doesn't stop us from investigating these cases. We do not close any homicide cases until we've solved them," end quote. Wow. Those are pretty strong words. So that does make them feel like, you know, they have the law enforcement behind them who are like, we will not stop.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. Now, while we still don't know the identity of the two boys, we do have some theories based upon tips that have come in through the years. Luckily, even when the tips
00:31:14
Speaker
received way back when covered two young boys instead of a boy and a girl. They were still documented. That's good. Yes. So at least police can now go back and like comb over those details. So Maggie, I will tell you about two separate witness accounts and a couple of theories. And you tell me what your gut is telling you is most likely. Okay.
00:31:43
Speaker
Account number one came from a man who worked at a logging camp. He reported to police that it was, he recalled, in 1949 or 1950 he had been driving his truck and had picked up a woman and her two children to give them a ride.
00:32:04
Speaker
He recalled that the woman had red hair, so it must have stood out to him, and that she told the man and his friend who was in the truck with him that she had gotten in trouble with mission police for vagrancy. And now law enforcement is thinking maybe potentially vagrancy C, which was the crime of prostitution.
00:32:31
Speaker
man from the logging camp recalled that this woman told him that her two children had attended Cedar Valley School and that they lived on Cherry Street in Mission, British Columbia. He said that the two children were little boys between six and seven years old and that at least one of them that he had given a ride to to Stanley Park had on an aviator helmet.
00:33:01
Speaker
So my initial reaction to this is this lady talks a lot. Yeah. Yeah. She tells too many of the details. Yeah. That's a lot of details to give to a stranger. But it's very helpful for a police investigation to have that many details. Yeah. Find the family that lived on Cherry Street. They were able to track down a family with the last name of Grant.
00:33:31
Speaker
who fit all of those descriptions. Like did they have two children that attended Cedar Valley School that did they quit coming? No. So once police were able to trace down this family that fit all those descriptors, what they found was that the family wasn't missing any family members. But I'm wondering, when did they track these people down? Well, it was years later.
00:33:59
Speaker
So what if they were missing family members they didn't know existed? Yeah, or we're trying to cover up, who knows? Yeah, and what if they said like, you could potentially maybe be related to these people, would you give us a DNA sample? And I feel like I would be like, yes, I would give you a DNA sample. Right. Even if there's no, like, even if you think it really wouldn't help at all, you want my DNA? Sure, I'll give you a DNA sample. Yeah, right. So we have that account.
00:34:27
Speaker
Account number two was from a sailor who had been walking the seawall at Stanley Park with his fiance in May 1944. Okay. Well, that's just romantic. I know. And remember those dates, like kind of the bookends, like as early as 1944, as late as 1949 or 50, it comes from these two accounts. Wow. So that first one was the 1949 or 50.
00:34:55
Speaker
This one is the 1944. So yeah, he's walking the seawall with his fiance. It's May, so it's nice outside. And he said that they were startled when a woman came barreling out of the woods right in their path, like right in front of them. And he remembered that she didn't have a coat on. Because she left it with the children. Yep. And she only had on one shoe.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yup. And he said that disturbingly, when they saw her, she like let out this like guttural moaning scream and then began running away from the sailor and his fiance. Okay. It's this lady. It's this account because like that's all crazy things that you would like vividly remember. It's like the ferret.
00:35:52
Speaker
Yeah, because you're walking here with your fiance. This crazy lady runs at you and only wants you and screams. You're gonna remember that.
00:36:01
Speaker
Now that tip, you know, also was originally looked like overlooked because police didn't think that the style of the shoe that the boys wore was sold in Canada as early as 1944. You know, so at first they're like, well, this can't possibly be true because the shoe wasn't sold here. But now we know that the shoe was. However, once police investigated this account as well, Maggie,
00:36:30
Speaker
the lead became a dead end also. Now what you probably notice is that in both of these accounts there is a mother and her children or sightings of a mother alone.
Theories and Speculations on the Crime
00:36:47
Speaker
So the primary theory is that a mother took her two boys for a picnic and for some reason
00:36:59
Speaker
murdered them with that axe that was found next to the bodies. So I'm going to tell you reasons supporting this theory and I'm going to play devil's advocate. Okay. So supporting this theory, obviously that there was a woman or a mother who committed this crime is the fact that a woman's shoe was found at the scene. I mean,
00:37:27
Speaker
Yeah. How did it get there? Yeah. Yes. The women's coat and almost every, and we're going like even with the ones with a boy and a girl, almost every witness account involved a woman. So I'm wondering, like this has absolutely really nothing to do with, I mean it doesn't, it doesn't with this case. So like I'm wondering if you're a police officer and you're like dead set that this happened
00:37:56
Speaker
in like a specific season of a specific year what do you do with all of these accounts that come in like are these initially investigated like the account number one with the logging truck dude or the logging camp guy like is that initially investigated when it's called in or are they like meh doesn't have anything to do with it
00:38:19
Speaker
In this particular case, I am under the impression that it was documented but not investigated. But what if it was somebody else? You know what I mean? Yeah, right. Like somebody else who's missing. Yeah. Or who needs help. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's a good question. And, you know, I also don't know how much of
00:38:48
Speaker
what they found that the scene was shared with the public. Okay. So I'm saying this because like almost every account we hear is of a woman and people are mentioning like the coat left at the scene and one shoe left at the, you know, we're seeing a woman with only one shoe on or children with the, those leather aviator helmets. You know what I mean? So like if law enforcement,
00:39:16
Speaker
when they first reported the story are telling all of these details left at the scene, is that like altering recollection? Right. Is it like when you listen to one of those videos where people supposedly record ghosts and the first time you just you're like, and then it's supposed to say, and you hear. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, if you listen to, um, like the 911 call for the John Bonet Ramsey case. Yeah. And you,
00:39:46
Speaker
So, like, if you listen to it and you don't know what it's supposed to be saying, you might hear something different. But then if somebody says, oh, don't you hear, you know,
00:39:58
Speaker
Patsy Ramsey say this, and then you're like, oh, yes, I do hear it. Yeah. So we had a crazy 911 call like that. And it was like, Brandon Lawson. Yeah. I couldn't hear anything until like, I was told what I needed to hear. And then I was like, yes, I do hear that. If you want to laugh, you can hear Maggie's interpretation of the 911 call. Yeah, that was good. It was pretty funny.
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm just wondering how much here was actually what people remembered versus they were told what was found at the scene and then like, maybe they there was a woman who, you know, frantically ran out of the woods and maybe she didn't have a coat on it was may, you know, and maybe she even screamed but that doesn't necessarily mean
00:40:51
Speaker
You know that she murdered somebody, right? So there are some other reasons she could have been in danger. Maybe she was running from someone and ran out of her shoe and that's why she screamed. Yeah. There are some other details at the scene though that do seem to indicate maybe not necessarily a woman or a mother, but someone who knew
00:41:18
Speaker
the children, and that's that act of covering up the bodies with a coat. Right. We've talked about that a lot. Mm-hmm. Because that's normally something that would indicate guilt or shame. Yup, guilt over what you've done, compassion even. So, I mean, obviously, if the children had been killed by their mother, then that guilt would make sense.
00:41:43
Speaker
right? And what would also make sense is the fact that no children matching the boys descriptions were reported missing. Oh, right. Because if she's like, perhaps a single mother, then who else would report them missing? Right? Yeah. But I mean, should they not be in school, like with their teachers don't have to report that? Well, again, like the youngest one probably wouldn't be yet.
00:42:08
Speaker
But we don't know the situation either. Like they could have been immigrants to Canada. They could have, you know. She could have said like, we're moving. Right. And taken them out. Yeah, we don't know. But obviously, like if a mother had killed her own children, she wouldn't report them missing. But if they had been taken by a stranger, well, then there would have been a report.
00:42:35
Speaker
Well, you would think so, but we also covered that one case where the, well, I guess she wasn't like a biological mother, but where her kid like supposedly went back to foster care and then. Yup. Ervin Greniger. Yeah. Yup. I know. But with this theory of it being the mother, I have some problems. Okay.
00:43:02
Speaker
Here's what goes through my head. First, and this is, well, this was a counter to that theory that comes from Honeyborne and then I'll give my own. So according to Honeyborne, he feels that if there had been a distraught woman, like as she must have been if she left a shoe, right? And if we believe that story of the sailor with his fiance,
00:43:28
Speaker
then she would more than likely have been arrested and taken to a local hospital for a psychological assessment.
00:43:43
Speaker
problem with the distraught lady is she obviously was in a calm enough state that she arranged their bodies in a particular way. I'm so glad you said that because that's one of my problems. That is one of my problems. We're starting to think alike. I mean,
00:44:04
Speaker
Yeah. So his problem, he was like, well, if there was a woman who was that distraught, like that one account, then she would have been picked up by law enforcement. She would have been taken to a local hospital for a psychological assessment. So law enforcement like sifts through years and years worth of records, like literally over a decade of almost a decade to see if a woman of that description had come in, like mentioned anything about children.
00:44:32
Speaker
and they couldn't find anything. Maybe she just was like on like a manic break and then... It could be. It could be. Here are my problems. If a mother did kill her own children, why would she have taken them to such a remote area where so many people could have seen her travel there with her children?
00:45:02
Speaker
Like if you know your plan, why would you go out in public? I guess, did she think maybe they were in a remote enough location that people wouldn't stumble upon her committing the act, but like the bodies would maybe potentially still be found? It could be the case.
00:45:27
Speaker
I mean, of course it was years before the bodies were found, right? But this particular location, I think I read it was like a hundred yards off of the trail though. I mean, it was like enclosed by trees, but it's not like in the boonies. Yeah. 10 miles out or something like that. And if we believe that loggers accounts, that first one, right? Yeah.
00:45:57
Speaker
Then if it is a mom taking her children there to commit this act, you're telling me that she took them there knowing that she would have to hitch a ride to get there, like creating witnesses to their journey and then what? And hitch a ride? Yeah. Yeah. Like I just don't, that doesn't make much sense to me at all. Yeah, no, that part's weird.
00:46:23
Speaker
And then even if you think logistically, how could she have killed one child and the other one not run away? I mean, though, like it could have been a very like look at the flowers moment from like from Walking Dead and they'd like are distracted and then she kills them. I mean, she could have drugged them like with chloroform or something. We don't know that. That's true. Yeah, we can't we can't tell that. Right. She could have like maybe
00:46:53
Speaker
Like, not really suffocated them. I guess she could have suffocated them and then just made sure with the axe there could have been other stuff. There could have been. I'm just personally, I'm not sure. And while we might be able to justify like the leaving of the coat behind to cover up what she had done, what about leaving the single shoe? Like why leave that? Because I feel like you could have
00:47:23
Speaker
Like even if she was the lady that ran out of the woods and she's like in a hurry to get away, I feel like you would be able to say, Oh, I've stepped out of my shoe. I don't need to leave that as evidence at the scene of a crime. Perhaps I need to turn around and get that. Right.
00:47:42
Speaker
And so all of those questions have led many people to wonder the other theory, which is whether there might be another victim buried in Stanley Park, the mother of the two boys. You know, I had not even thought of that. Yeah. So they're thinking, could there not have been another or multiple attackers who also killed the mother? Yeah, maybe she was taking her kids on an innocent picnic.
00:48:13
Speaker
Right. And they all died. Yeah. Hence why she, you know, potentially hitched a ride there because she's not thinking anything is going to happen. And that would explain maybe while there was only one shoe with the boys because maybe she was running. Maybe it was the frantic lady
00:48:33
Speaker
with that the fiance and the sailor saw and she was trying to run away from her murderer. Right. But he caught up with her. Yep. And, you know, then it does seem to make sense to me because like if she had done it single handedly, I go to my main problem, which is what you mentioned, like how could she have been calm enough to arrange the bodies and to cover them up and then immediately so frantic that she left a shoe behind?
00:49:03
Speaker
Right. Like the the calmness and the frantic. It doesn't seem to go together. Right. So could someone else have committed the crime and then staged it to make it look like the mother had killed her own children? Or I mean, I don't even think they would really have to try to stage it like.
00:49:26
Speaker
you're just using her jacket to cover them up and like she runs out of her shoe and you kill her somewhere else in the park. Yeah. So she could be still in Stanley Park somewhere. Yeah. Because in my mind, I'm thinking, why would a mother feel the need to kill and not just abandon?
Emotional Impact and Investigator's Reflection
00:49:47
Speaker
Like if she felt she could no longer raise her children, why wouldn't she just leave them behind? Leave them in the park? Yeah.
00:49:56
Speaker
I do kind of think now that it's been brought up, I do kind of think that there's another body in Stanley Park. You're buying the she could have been another victim. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. I am too, mostly because the frantic yet calm acts that don't seem to quite go together. That's the only way I can explain them in my head.
00:50:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was the mother that ran or the woman that ran out with the sailor and the fiance. She was running away from someone chasing her. Hence the reason she only had one shoe because she ran out of her shoe. And she didn't have her jacket on because maybe she'd taken it off because they were having their little picnic and it was May and she didn't need it. I mean, they could have been sitting on it.
00:50:46
Speaker
Yeah, they could have been using it as a blanket and this person used it to cover their bodies. She was running and then he caught up to her and he or she caught up to her and she's somewhere else in this park. I'm feeling the same way. Honeyborn cares most about giving these boys their names back. He believes, as I think we all do, that they at least deserve that recognition.
00:51:15
Speaker
In an interview with Ian Bailey for the Globe and Mail, Honeyborne said the case saddened him because, quote, they missed their whole life, end quote. As cited in that same article, even the Vancouver Police Museum director Robert Nune says people who pass the Babes in the Woods exhibit, which now houses replicas of much of the evidence, he says that
00:51:44
Speaker
This is how visitors and how he himself reacts to the boy's memory. Quote, when they get to the babes in the woods cabinet, there's almost a silence. A hush comes over them as they read about what happened to these small children. Once you learn about it, it's got an intrigue that's infectious.
00:52:07
Speaker
I personally lock up the museum and go around the displays, turning the lights off. And whether intentionally or otherwise, that's always the last light I turn out. I say, good night, everybody, and walk out. It's something I've done ever since I've been here, end quote. I only hope that one day we can turn the light off
00:52:37
Speaker
and shut the door on this case. Calling out the forever good night rest well, and calling the boys by their names. If you have any information concerning the identity of the two children, please contact the Vancouver Police Department. 1-604-717-3321.
00:53:07
Speaker
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00:53:28
Speaker
Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.