Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of It's Personal. The last book I wrote is heavy. All right. Hey, Gary. This is DVD to boy. My name is Randy Rebine. My name is Jared Krizovska. I don't think I'm a person that curses a little heart and just comes out to entertain me. I'm excited. Hi. Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of It's Personal. I'm super excited for our guest today. Can you introduce yourself?
Speaker: Sure. My name is Joanna Ho and I am the author of the upcoming picture book, Eyes That Kiss in the Corners. I'm so excited to talk to you and like you're being very modest because I looked at your profile and your biography and you have lots of other books coming out.
Speaker: as well, which is super exciting. You seem like such a just a joy to talk to you already. And the books that you're producing seem like they're going to be very valuable to the world. Can you just share with us just a little bit about who you are and where you're from? I know you said you're based in the Bay Area right now. Can you tell us a little bit about your just like history in general?
Speaker: Sure. I am based in the Bay Area right now. I am the, so, you know, paper level, I am the vice principal at a small public high school. It's a high school that serves, it's a population, it's like a little two square mile island within
Speaker: like at the wealth of Silicon Valley and the population that we're in you know you could get into redlining and racism and systemic issues but our population is very marginalized it's a population almost entirely of color and this area is becoming gentrified pretty quickly but our school is one that's focused on first gen
Speaker: first generation college students. Most of our students will be that and they're of color. I have two little kids. One is three, my daughter's three and my son is six and I am not a native to the Bay Area. I was actually born in Minnesota. I moved to Baltimore when I was in fifth grade and then I moved to the Bay Area when I was
Speaker: in sixth grade. And then since then I've sort of been out like I went to college on the East Coast. I've lived in Ghana. I lived in Taiwan. And then I'm back here. My whole teaching and educational career has been in the Bay Area. Wow. So much moving. Yeah, a lot of moving. So much moving. Wow. And I noticed two things in your bio that you're younger. I think it's your younger son loves Lego.
Speaker: So I'm wondering like, how are your Lego skills? And I'm also wondering about, you said your daughter, I think it was that she loves, I think it's cheese, I think maybe.
Speaker: Yeah, my kids are super weird. So my son is obsessed with train obsessed trains and planes. Like what we do on our free time is we go to the train station and then we stand and we like wait for the train and then we wave at the train when it comes by. My personal Lego skills are abysmal. He's always like, Mom, let me teach you how to make a plane. And then if I put like two things together, he's like,
Speaker: Good job, mom. And my daughter, she was starting when she was like still in a crib and couldn't barely, couldn't even walk. She could just pull herself up. She literally would wake up in the morning and most people's kids, they go, mom, my daughter would wake up at the crib and then go, cheese, cheese, until I like went and got her some cottage cheese and then she would be, I love it.
Speaker: I love it. She knows what she wants. I think it's good, right? I know. It's so good. Joy, could you share with us just about your experience growing up in a few of those different places? Because I'm sure they were very different for you as you grow older, especially in the school system. What did that look like for you as a kid, I guess, bouncing around and then also participating in different school systems?
Speaker: Yeah I think that um so when I was in Minnesota I was there until I finished fourth grade and I was really fortunate my I went to school with my cousins so I feel like school I also went to a gifted and talented magnet school and
Speaker: you know the Twin Cities and whatever that means because I just remember like school was fun and we like messed around on the monkey bars. The reason we moved actually is because my parents got divorced and then so I moved with my mom to Baltimore and we moved in with one of her sisters and I think because I went to a school there
Speaker: like a school in Minnesota that's gifted in talented, then I went to a public school in Baltimore, I felt like very far ahead, which I think really increased my confidence as a student. And then I think if we get into, you know, racial dynamics as an Asian person, I think that there was a lot of privilege in some ways for the ways like, you know, I, with people didn't doubt me or they were always like very supportive.
Speaker: And we were only in Baltimore for a year, and then we moved to the Bay Area to live with another sister of my mom's. My mom is the youngest of 10 kids, so she has a lot of siblings. And here, you know, the school system here, I just feel really privileged to have gone to school here. The irony, I think, a little bit is that I now work in
Speaker: across the bridge. So growing up or going to school here, I wasn't as aware of like the fact that students who lived in the city where I work were bust over to our city because those students didn't have their own public high school. So there's a lot of privilege and there was a lot of ignorance, I think, on my part, which I've been learning about for the last 20 years.
Speaker: So my experience as a student is very different I think than my students experience or hopefully the environment we're creating at my school is similar. Were you always in administration or did you start in, I'm assuming you started in classroom but I could be wrong.
Speaker: Yeah, I started as an English teacher. So I was an English teacher for quite a few years. Then I became the Dean of Students at that same school. So I do a lot of restorative justice. I'm always the one who's doing like culture and behavior. I lead a lot of PD on those things and also on just like equity and anti -racism. And after that, I actually left the school and I joined this like startup. This sounds crazy, but
Speaker: Sounds like it's a startup alternative to prison school. So we were trying to reimagine the justice system. So I was designing that program, like what could it look like if we
Speaker: did incarceration, not incarceration, but if when people broke the law, we had a holistic healing and educational space for them to heal and then return to society. So I worked there for a couple of years. I've been all over. I was like an Ed Tech for a couple of years doing PD. And then I am just, this is my second year as a vice principal at this school.
Speaker: Jenna, I'm just so impressed with all these things because on top of that, and we talked about it a little bit earlier, you know, honestly, like on top of that, you're a mom. And I think that is...
Speaker: When I hear parents, just in general, being an educator myself, talk about the other things that they're involved in and how passionate they are and how much of their heart they give to those things, knowing that their heart is literally always home with their kids, because that's where the most energy is. I am just so impressed. And we haven't even gotten to the part where you are writing books.
Speaker: Can you tell us a little bit about that journey? How it happened? Just like what you're looking forward to? And if possible, can we start with that first book and that amazing title? When I saw it, I like got goosebumps and I was like, oh, Amazon pre -order, pre -order, pre -order. Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah, I, you know, it's actually been quite a journey. I think that when people see it, like I've been so fortunate that the lead up in the last few weeks to the release of my book has been just so well received and people have been so supportive, but it's been a journey. Like I started writing
Speaker: a few months after my son was born so literally almost exactly six years ago to the day where I was like looking for Christmas books for him and I you know as an English teacher and someone who's really passionate about inclusion and anti -racism I was looking for diverse
Speaker: books, Christmas books, and I couldn't find very many. And that sort of started me on this I had this like big epiphany like you should write one. And at the time I, you know, literally had no idea I was one of those people was like, anyone could write a picture book and then you like get into and you're like, actually, this is very, very challenging. And I have a lot to learn I have no idea what I'm doing.
Speaker: But I, you know, pre not knowing any of that, I just was like, okay, I had this epiphany, like, you should write books. And which is, you know, not something I really expected before I wasn't one of those kids who grew up wanting to be a writer my whole life, I've always loved reading, I love teaching English. And
Speaker: And so since then, I sort of just dedicated myself in my, it was like my little side hustle next to my jobs. And I would started doing like, I joined SCBWI, I started going to conferences, I just started taking classes online so I could fit it like around my schedule. And then I would just write in my free time. And the first things I was writing were like,
Speaker: really horrendous I'm like embarrassed I sent them to even my friends um you know but I really worked on it for a few years and I started to submit to agents um this sort of relates to eyes that kiss in the corners but I you know I did like a lot of I like went to the SCBWI you know book of all the agents and then I went through every single agency and I read about every single agent because I think
Speaker: I write lyrical social justice themed books. And that's not like a super hot niche. I think most people at conferences were looking for quirky or funny. And I'm just like not funny. I'm quirky, but I don't write those kinds of stories. So there was a very small group of agents who was looking for lyrical or had any passion, I think, for inclusion and diversity. So I narrowed it down and I queried.
Speaker: And I had my dream agent, Karen Wiseman, and I queried her and she requested to see more manuscripts. So I sent her more and and then she was like, no, thank you. And I think that
Speaker: That experience was really helpful. I feel like all rejection for me actually has been always very motivating and I think looking back the stories I had sent her were not that good and they were stories that I had written because I thought that there needed to be stories like that.
Speaker: out, but they weren't necessarily my stories to write. So for example, one was about a boy whose father was incarcerated. And I remember I got feedback once saying if you haven't been through this experience, you shouldn't write this story. And that was definitely 100 % spot on. And so that really pushed me to think about what
Speaker: Like what are the stories of my heart like what are my stories that I need to tell and that made me reflect and did back and think about as a child, you know, what are some of the things that I felt really deeply and one of the first ideas that came up was this idea about my eyes.
Speaker: you know, in and I think that at the time I didn't recognize that that was like pain that I was feeling but if you're looking in the mirror as a kid and like doing this to your eyelid and wondering like what you would look like with bigger eyes or wishing it was like such a joke in my family even like Joanne is obsessed with her eyes my brother has like pretty big eyes and long lashes for an Asian person so there was like this jealousy that we would kind of joke about and it was like a thing you know um
Speaker: And so that's sort of where the starting point of that came from, was like from this rejection through like digging deep through like, okay, this is one of the stories. And then I wrote, so that was where that story was sort of born and when I started working on it.
Speaker: Wow, that's such an amazing process and I think it's important for not just adults to hear but kids to hear as well to listen to how you got to the heart of certain stories or your voice within stories because
Speaker: of course like we say it and we hear it we're like yeah of course we can write stories that are about us way better than any other story but like until we actually hear it or get the feedback from it and get into those stories like we just forget sometimes um so i'm just super curious of what that looks like on a page for you um because then your second title is like playing at the border so like all these titles and
Speaker: like I'm thinking to myself like holy cow like these books would work so well in my classroom just based on the title and then now I'm speaking to you I'm like knowing even more that these like books are going to be so great for kids in my classroom like I can't even imagine how many kids and families just people in general are going to benefit from from your work already so I'm super excited for you thank you
Speaker: yeah yeah so you you have you found an agent obviously yeah so
Speaker: My agent is Karen, so the dream agent. So I wrote this, the one I resubmitted. When I resubmitted to her, it's kind of a funky story, but I, at the time, for SCBWI, I was leading a conversation around own voices at our local SCBWI conference, and Karen was
Speaker: coming to that conference. I didn't realize that she was local at the time, so I had a manuscript critique with her, and that was a different manuscript about Ai Weiwei, who was a nonfiction story. He's a super activist artist from China.
Speaker: And so after she did that, read that one, I didn't know how to be like, by the way, I already submitted to you. But I don't remember how I like slipped that in there, but I think she remembered and she asked to see this manuscript again after I revised. And so when, after I revised it, I like knew I was about to have a baby.
Speaker: Like literally, and I submitted to her knowing the baby was coming like any day. And then it came, you know, my, my daughter came like a few days after I submitted. And then a few weeks later, when my daughter was a few weeks old, she, she responded and asked for just to chat on the phone. And so that sort of went from there. So I did an signing with her.
Speaker: That is such an amazing story and talk about resilience because like you had every opportunity within there to say, you know what, I'm just going to step back and not do this anymore or not even not just do it, but like take a break or whatever the case may be. Like you're also having a baby. So like, I can't even imagine.
Speaker: like how you're feeling during that time, the pressure, the anxiety, the stress, like all those things. And on top of that, you're like, I'm just gonna steal some of this in. I'm still gonna see what happens. I still have hope. Like that is some resilience, which is amazing. Amazing, amazing, amazing. That's so cool. That's so cool. And then on top of that, and let's go, I'm gonna just get right into it because again, I'm very curious. So you're also writing a novel as well.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that for me writing is really an extension of just like I think the umbrella passion here is around equity and anti -racism. So my work in education is very much tied to like why I became a writer and why I feel
Speaker: It's not like a side gig. I mean, it is kind of, but I think the reason that the drive is so strong is because it feels like this is an opportunity to have a voice and to tell stories and to like do some work, you know, to make some change maybe. And if this is one way that I'm able to do that, then
Speaker: I feel so fortunate. And so it's not just like, oh, I really want to be published. It's definitely that. But it also feels like there's deeper meaning in the work. So I think that's what helps when I'm tired and I'm doing all the things. Like it's not just like, oh, I can give that up. You know, it feels like no, that's actually really important. So the novel is the novel. I never thought I would write a novel, but it was born from multiple experiences I had in the Bay Area where
Speaker: I knew I wanted to write something that was about anti -Asian racism. And I read, actually I didn't know it at the time, but I read The Hate U Give and I remember thinking, I would love to write a novel that speaks like the way this spoke to me. And there's no way I'm ever gonna be an Angie Thomas, but that was the inspiration. And so then from there,
Speaker: And then that was like, okay, I want to write something about anti -Asian racism. And there were like multiple experiences I had where, um, so for example, once I was at a dinner party, I was one of the, I was the only Asian person there. And it was a group of really privileged people that I, you know, didn't actually know very well. And they started in a few years ago in my community, there, there were two epidemics of teenage suicide.
Speaker: And they scot onto that topic. And then someone said, well, it's all the Asian people who've moved into this community.
Speaker: And they increase the pressure on our kids and they can't handle it. And I remember I was like at the dinner party and I was just like, but I should say something. And then I just couldn't. And then another time, not too far after that, I was in a Lyft and my driver made basically exactly the same comment. Oh, it's all the Asian people. And I was like, do you not see this face? Like, hello. And so that's really where the inspiration for the novel came from.
Speaker: There's the it's based on the story of a girl whose brother dies by suicide and the community turns against her family and she's Chinese and basically blames her family for his suicide and so it kind of is about her dealing with grief but also finding her voice in the process. Wow you are
Speaker: I can just, I'm super excited for you. I'm already, I'm sold. I'm so sold on you as a writer. The books that you are going to produce to the world. I'm so excited. I really, really am. And what's the, I guess, what's the year for that book? Like when does that, hopefully. I think it's 2023.
Speaker: Okay. That's so exciting. That's so exciting. So I have just a few more questions for you. I have more, but we'll have to talk again. Okay. I guess I'm wondering, what are you doing right now for Joy? I know that you have two kids. You're also an administrator.
Speaker: It sounds like you're being pulled in lots of different directions. So what are you going to do for the break? You have a break coming up. What are you going to be doing for the break, maybe? I'm going to eat all the cookies, bake all the cookies and then eat them. I am just excited to write. Honestly, I haven't had the time to write. So I'm excited to be home with the kids and not and just be able to like focus.
Speaker: and hopefully get some sleep. This is like not very lofty plans, but sleep, fighting, and a lot of cookies in time with my kids sounds really wonderful. I love that. I love that. And I think that's what it is, right?
Speaker: you sometimes you a lot of times people forget like those are the things out as educators because you're always constantly working and thinking checking emails tending to kids and teachers etc when you get quiet time or you get time to yourself like you just sometimes you just don't want to do anything you want to just put your feet up you just want to watch a movie or read a book and those are the moments that really
Speaker: get us really excited. So I totally understand exactly how you're feeling and why you're doing those things. Like what are you doing on your break? That's like literally it. Like we're like both me and my wife, we've talked like, what are we going to do? And it was like, we're going to read books and go for walks if we can. We're going to like maybe watch a movie on Netflix. Like it's nothing.
Speaker: out of the ordinary at all, besides like trying to turn off as much as possible. Totally. I think one thing about the pandemic is like, because everything's blended and overlapping, like, I feel like my brain is constantly being split, you know? It's like what you're saying, like work never ends, and then your kids, my kids aren't always there, and then trying to figure out writing, and I'm excited to just like have my brain be able to be in one place.
Speaker: Totally. For like an extended period of time. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And I think it's one of those things where like, we try to cherish it as much as possible because like it goes by itself. I hope it doesn't, but it goes by so fast that all of a sudden you're back in the classroom again. Yeah, totally. The next semester starts, right? Yeah.
Speaker: So again, I'm super happy that you were able to come on with me today. Where can people find you online? I'm on, I'm the most active on Instagram. I'm occasionally on Twitter, but my handle on both of those places is Joanna Ho writes.
Speaker: So that's pretty easy. And my website is the same, joannahowightrights .com. Awesome. Awesome. And again, just for the people that are listening, can you list maybe that you can list them. I would actually love for you to list them all, which books are coming out and possibly the year that we could possibly see them as well.
Speaker: Okay, so my debut picture book will be released on January 5 2021 so in a few weeks that one is called eyes that kiss in the corners. It's about a young girl who wishes for bigger eyes and realizes through family relationships that her eyes are beautiful and that she's powerful.
Speaker: The second is called Playing at the Border, a story of Yo -Yo Ma that will release in the fall of next year. It's also a picture book. It's the story of Yo -Yo Ma who he played at the border between Texas and Mexico in 2019. So it's the story, sort of his story, but also the story of the music and the cello and the composer and how it's about crossing borders and bridging borders and not building walls.
Speaker: My novel is called The Silence That Finds Us. And that will be released, I think, in 2023. And then I have one more picture book being released. It's called One Day. That's in 2024. And that is really like a mother's ode. I wrote it for my son when he was a newborn. It's definitely really different now than it was then.
Speaker: back then it had like a stanza about like how one day his toe was gonna have hair growing out of it and that's not in there anymore. But it has sort of a I would say anti -toxic masculinity bent so more positive masculinity message.
Speaker: in that story. Joanna, thank you so much for hanging out today. I must say it was just such a treat talking to you. I'm super excited to watch. Yeah, I'm super excited to watch your journey and just super excited for everyone to see the amazing work that you're doing. And it's coming out soon, so hopefully everyone goes out and gets your books.
Speaker: Thank you. It was such a pleasure to be on here. It was a great way to start my day. No, this is super awesome.
