Transcript
Speaker: Hey everybody, this is Trevor, also TH, h from the I Think You Should podcast, the podcast that you're about to listen to. ah This actually started out as a solo project that I wanted to find people to partner with, but as you'll see from this first episode and the ongoing ones from this season, ah my friend B and I, as my co-host, it just was too perfect a combo. were having too much fun, so we decided to stick with it, and that's how you got the I Think You Should pod that you're about to hear.
Speaker: If you want to reach out to us with topics, offers to be on an episode to talk about something you're interested in or you think more people should know about, please email us at Ithinkyoushouldpod at gmail.com.
Speaker: Like I said earlier, this is a season, so we recorded a number of episodes that we'll be releasing over the next few weeks. It started in the fall of 2025, and you'll get a chance to hear our thoughts on a bunch of different things. So, thanks. Enjoy.
Speaker: Oh, hey, welcome to I Think You Should podcast about things that we think you should play, watch, read, etc. Although in this case, spoiler alert for this episode, it's I Think You Should Do Better.
Speaker: But I'll let Bea explain that when we get to that part. Hi, I'm Trevor. Hi, i'm I'm not Trevor. I'm B. That is true. Before we get into, and you tell us the story that a conversation that we had that you told me something that led to us saying we need to record this as a podcast.
Speaker: um Do you want to share anything you're playing, reading, watching, or something that came across your little papers recently? Well, okay. Good thing is I've recently figured out how to play Minecraft without throwing up. So...
Speaker: That's really exciting for me. For those not up on the lore, B can't play games in first-person mode because it makes her nauseous. yes Yeah, yeah. There is there is no first-person mode that's like, this is be this will be fine for you. And I used to play Minecraft a lot on iPad because I'm a four-year-old boy, but...
Speaker: For some reason, like the first person controls on iPad were fine, but the second I got it on my PC. I think it's because like I get a little buck wild with my mouse hand.
Speaker: So the camera. You've got that sensitivity cranked up. Yeah, so like my sensitivity on my cursor is really cranked up, but I have the camera sensitivity at like fucking two, but it does not matter. That's amazing. So don't know what, and then tried to do it in third person and I could not fucking figure it out, but apparently I just desperately wanted to build something. And okay, let's be clear. I play Minecraft in creative mode. I do not play survival Minecraft. There was no world, by the way, in which I ever thought that wasn't. No, could you imagine if I was like a hardcore survival Minecraft person? tell me you were a survival Minecrafter, I would be like, I'm sorry. need to reevaluate everything about what I know about you. out meds is what the problem is. But like, it's just, I play it in creative because, oh, shocker, I like to build stuff. So was like, I really, actually, it's kind of related we're going to talk about. But there is, there are several...
Speaker: things that I wanted to build because I am autistic and I love visuals. So like even even when I write and I am like creating a character's home, I will draw it so that I know how they can move about the space. right like It's very important to me. i write like a screenwriter.
Speaker: you sketch You sketch storyboards, basically. Exactly. So, like, I've always written like a screenwriter or like a playwright that I need to have the whole 3D space mapped out so i I know how somebody lives and works and is in a space. so I wanted to see if I could create some of the spaces of a certain TV show that we talk about and we're going to talk about today. And i was like, well, everybody's done it in the Sims already.
Speaker: I'm going to do it in Minecraft after not playing Minecraft for several years, Trevor, like several years. one might say you yearned for the mines. I yearned for the mines, except not because I am scared to go into the mines in Minecraft.
Speaker: um A quick side note. So my son, who's seven, very into Minecraft YouTubers and stuff like just the concept of Minecraft as a thing, I think just tickles a part of a young person's brain in a way that like Legos did for me and you probably. Yeah.
Speaker: um So we got it on the PlayStation. I thought, well, he'll just, you know, he's gotten better with controllers. He'll play it on his own. But no, what he wants is he wants dad to play while he watches and critiques my playing. He wants to project manage you. Yeah. And he's telling me to like go into the mines and I'm like, but it's spooky down there and I don't like it. i don't want to do that i just want to just want to be up here where there's axolotls and stuff what i don't want to listen for zombies and creepers i remember when i was playing it way back on my ipad they changed the settings on like there was like an update or something and i play on peaceful because i obviously don't want mobs fucking spawning while i'm building right and
Speaker: I guess it had switched to like not normal, but like not peaceful. So like whatever, like the easy mode is, but it still spawned mobs and it spawned a zombie in the basement of the house I was building. And I didn't know what it was. Okay. And you were just, you're just hearing the noise. I was just hearing a noise. I don't like that. freaking the fuck out until I finally went into the basement of this literally like massive complex I had built don't ask don't ask why and i see like an arm kind of like coming out of the door and I just I closed the game and never reopened it so you you literally created your own personal horror movie in Minecraft like that's what happened that's that is a horror movie Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So I am pleased to report. babaduked yourself. I babaduked myself, but now I'm back. I'm back. Unstoppable. So yeah. well What are you doing, reading, watching?
Speaker: I was going to bring up, I'm playing Return to Moria with my friend Derek, who will be on this podcast at some point. um And ah this is going quick because it's not the thing I actually want to talk about. But I discovered with that game, which I played solo through originally, that game is not meant to be played solo because it's so much more fun with another person.
Speaker: Not because the game mechanically isn't fun, but because it doesn't seem like I don't think it scales for the number of players. So like when you get rated like or like um where like the horde shows up, which is a whole thing with orcs and stuff.
Speaker: If you're by yourself, you are fucked. Like there is not like you're not going to be able to do much about anything. But with two of you, you can very easily split the enemy into, you know, smaller sections and wipe them out.
Speaker: on it's just so much more, more manageable with ah even one other person that I'm like, okay, I feel like they either have the scaling is off. They don't scale, but yeah, No, so the thing that actually I wanted to talk about is so I i have mentioned to you off mic that we're going to do an episode on a guy named Peter Ferrabari of this this Warhammer 40K writer who I think is maybe my favorite sci fi writer of the last 25 years. And I don't think he should be just put pigeonholed into 40K, but he's made this brilliant series that's not directly connected, but is vaguely connected through overlapping characters and locations.
Speaker: So I ended up, one of my students wanted to borrow one of my omnibuses of his work, and I i hadn't finished rereading the last bit of his other work. So I did. I read the first book of his that I ever read, which chronologically in his series is actually the last book, The Cult of the Spiral Dawn.
Speaker: m and And when I first read it, I remember being like, oh, my God, who is this guy? This book is incredible. And then I read his other stuff. I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. This other stuff's even better. Having reread it, I walked away going, no, maybe this is the best one. And I guess what caused me then after after that was like telling my wife, like, but I've reread all his books now.
Speaker: Like I'd read them once and now I've read them a second time. I can't reread them a third time. I need to find something else, but I want to scratch this itch. So I discovered that if you go to the Black Library, which is Warhammer's like, or Games Workshop's like um publication arm, they have their own public publishing house, which means it's very hard to get physical books, which sucks, but they have a ton of EPUB stuff.
Speaker: And I read books on my phone, especially when traveling or stuff like with hockey teams when I'm on the bus. So like I'm like, all right, I'll just see what they have. They have an entire horror section on there. i was like, oh oh, interesting. So I went and looked.
Speaker: And I found a collection that actually had one of Farahabari's short stories in it. And i go, okay, if that's in there and it's in this vein, maybe I'm you know barking up the right tree here. So I downloaded it. And I have now discovered another writer in this collection who I really, really like. And his name is James Brogdon.
Speaker: Okay. And he's also written stuff that I think is not... in the 40k or warhammer setting he apparently i'm looking at his bio here from the collection i have he won the august durlith award for the best horror in 2020 and he's a australian who grew up in tasmania and then moved to england so like has quite a bit of connections to the parts of world but anyway this he wrote two short stories that are actually set in the same place and i'm just going to tell you the setting because it's such a cool idea So like very quick factor about Warhammer when you do like faster than light travel, they don't like jump to light speed whatever. They basically cut a hole in reality and go through the warp and then come out the other side. Yeah. And it's like bad because like when you do that, all kinds of shit that's out there in the warp, which has like demons and stuff can get in like, you know, event horizon the shit out of your situation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, they have ways to like protect against it. They call them Geller Fields and stuff like that.
Speaker: This ship that he writes this story about is one that appears to have gone through the warp and come out or maybe not come out somehow like everything is like it's just this is a ship and that is now a self-contained ecosystem floating in space o and it is what's really cool when i was reading the first story it took me a bit to figure it out until you get to a certain character that the ship is essentially they call it the spike and the reason is that gravity essentially now it does not exist in the normal up and down way it would be where the floors are are on the bottom
Speaker: But in fact, the pointed front end of the ship is the bottom or sorry, the engines are the bottom and the top of the ship. The front of the ship is the top. like And there's I love it because they never try to explain it or like how it happened or whatever.
Speaker: But like all these different characters live in They belong to certain halls. They are constantly scavenging lower and lower into the depths to try to find like supplies. But they run into mutated forms of people and stuff.
Speaker: It's so cool. It was such a cool idea because it's like, yes, Event Horizon is a really good film. It's terrifying, but it's a really good film. But it's also just like the ship is hell, basically. And like, you know, everything's bleak and awful. This is more like it's a society that has generationally clung on somehow to being in this ship.
Speaker: They're kind of keeping it together. And there are dregs or re remnants of the old life and world that come up in the way things are named or whatever. And yet it is still is self-contained, like, you know, horror setting.
Speaker: Interesting. Yeah, it was just super cool. The the first short story, without like giving any spoilers away, was just like following a main character. And she is like ah a scavenger, but she's like kind of sort of an important person. So like her dad doesn't want her to be a scavenger, but she...
Speaker: likes the adventure and mystery, and, like, she kind of unravels the story of the ship in that one. um The second one he did is, like, a continuation of that story, has an overlapping character, but it's about, like, there are seemingly things that are creeping in from the warp into the ship, and when they get into the ship, like, they obviously cause real big problems, because, you know, demons and stuff, but... No, just, like, it was very cool to find another...
Speaker: really compelling writer doing some really different stuff with that setting um and this will actually play into what we're going up talking about because um i was going to bring up fair hervari in our conversation today so you should tell us what we're talking about now because this was something you brought up to me what like a few days ago you told me about so sort of what happened with and at this point we can't expose it's about heated rivalries is how we got into this yeah so go ahead tell the story you had So at at this point in time, ah just for the for the record, let the record show so that if you're listening to this 100 years in the future because you found, i don't know, the tapes on our fucking corpses in the desert. I will be buried in this podcast. I should have mentioned that at this time.
Speaker: if you If you happen upon the archives while trying to hunt for, don't know, water or whatever. um So right now, Heated Rivalry is...
Speaker: like one of the hottest things on the planet, I would say, especially now that um it it has had international release. um I release, pun intended. um
Speaker: So it has ah expanded to multiple countries. it was It was originally just Canada, then America got it because HBO Max bought the rights to it.
Speaker: Or bought you know the viewership of it. And then now UK and parts of Europe and parts of Asia have it. Australia's always had it. Whatever. So it's global now.
Speaker: okay However, it is over. Right? Because it was six episodes. And um what's happened in the as it's ramped up to this feverish...
Speaker: obsession of it's ah it's a smash hit phenomenon it is a smash yeah and like something that people really never expected though i don't know why they wouldn't expect it um because the world is so fucking bleak that how could you see this and not like cling to it so desperately, you're like, ah, hope, hooray, you know? So what's happened though, is that it's, it's what happens with all anything that becomes even remotely popular. Now, like, again, this is from a relatively well-known book series, but like in a niche genre. So like, this isn't like, oh, Harry Potter took off and then blah, blah, blah happened. It's, it's, This is under the queer romance umbrella. it
Speaker: People who know about queer romance probably knew about the series or at least had heard of Rachel. So there was already a kind of a a murmuring about it among the fandom. But now because it's gone global and you know like you have you know major companies trying to cash in on it. You have the literal and NHL trying to cash in on it.
Speaker: You know, ah there are a lot of people with eyes on this that probably wouldn't have discovered it if it hadn't become so, so popular. um But the what's happened is that the toxicity of fandom has started to rear its ugly head like Tim Curry in Ferngully. Yeah!
Speaker: Yeah. and And that is really, that's the subject of the episode is up basically fandom. Yeah. Mostly toxic probably, but maybe we'll try to highlight some good fandoms in there too. I don't know many, but you know, yeah, sure. Yeah, it's hard. That's why what you said about this was an inevitability essentially. Yeah, I think the thing is that this has a very particular audience and...
Speaker: With certain audiences, I think, and and this happens with lots of things and we'll we'll get into it as the episode continues, but um this, I think, has particularly grabbed like the the demographic of like X one direction ex-Twilight girls. You know, like, it's like that kind of demographic. The stalker demographic, we'll call it. Yeah, but like, that age group, right? So it's like, i I'm in my 40s, so I was in my early 20s when, like, the Twilight phenomenon really, like, ramped up into, ah like, a froth. And I was too old for One Direction, but I wasn't too old for NSYNC. So, like... I've I ah I kind of like cut my teeth on the late 90s early 2000s fandoms. Yeah. um
Speaker: And now ah being far too old to deal with this bullshit. ah It's been really. ah It's interesting in the way that like.
Speaker: Watching a car crash is interesting. you don't You don't want to watch it and you certainly don't want to be part of it, but like you can't entirely look away from it. and what And what you were telling me when we had this conversation before was that like there's people like doxing slash stalking the two main actors. 100%. Yeah. yeah so like what's happened is that...
Speaker: Now, like the two main leads, Hudson and Connor, are 24 and 25 respectively. Right. At this point, they have not had their birthdays, which are both in February. And why do I know that? Because fandom. And um so, like, what's happened is that they are young, hot and...
Speaker: have the illusion of accessibility because they were unknown right so that this is having the effect of no one knew who these boys were and i say boys because they're barely adult men they are adult men but still they frontal lobe is just developed Right. And they are boys. So, you know, let's, let's be real. and what's happened is that these women, mostly women, mostly femme identifying have like claimed almost ownership of them.
Speaker: And in their obsession and in their frenzy have somehow decided that it's their right to,
Speaker: um ah like stalk them in public, like chase them into Ubers while they're like trying to just get back to a hotel, like, and obviously stalking outside their hotels and there have, there have been,
Speaker: gossip and like celebrity rag style accounts that have found potential partners. And because the boys have been very quiet about personal lives because they obviously know what happens. They, they are, you know, of that age that they understand what happens to people who get married.
Speaker: famous and they were trying to protect their own piece and the piece of their loved ones but you know people just can't leave well enough alone and enjoy the show they have to dive far too deep into it and make it fucking weird and creepy and illegal for the record just for the record yeah I wanted to start by saying that I want to define what I think, and you can add to this out obviously yeah after, but I want to define what I think is justifiable, like acts of fandom, basically. So like, number one, you are allowed to like a thing and then not like its subsequent versions or whatever, sequels, however you want to think about it. Like,
Speaker: One of the things that bothers me about fans that become identity tied to their things they like is that they can't divorce themselves from that thing. ah I'm giving you permission, all of you. It's okay to be a fan of something and then not like other versions or related products of it. um You're not allowed to hate on something because you think it shouldn't be the way that it is because it's not meeting your vision of what it should be.
Speaker: That doesn't mean that a person can't say that something is falsely advertised as one thing and it comes out as another and they're frustrated by that. That's a justifiable frustration. It's also like justifiable to want more of something because you enjoy it and to get frustrated with like, say, a George R.R. Martin who's sorry, he's never going to finish no Game with Thrones. And that's that stinks. Yeah.
Speaker: But like it's OK to be frustrated by that because you know because you like the work. right like Being frustrated because something is either poorly adapted, um not well executed, maybe ah if it's a series of something, it kind of goes off the rails and you you walk away from it. Those are all perfectly reasonable and, I think, healthy fan and reactions.
Speaker: What is the thing we're going to talk more about is the reactions of like the kind of gatekeeping that goes on or the demanding that certain art conform to what you want it to be as opposed to what the creator intends it to be.
Speaker: um And yeah, we're going to get into some shit like racism and sexism because obviously of course game Gamergate may get brought up at some point, at least in tangentially. So yeah. But like in the case of celebrity figures, like actors in a big show that suddenly pops or whatever, you're not entitled to anything they don't want to give you.
Speaker: Like right you're not entitled to know every detail of these people's lives. Some celebrities are very open and like being in the public eye. ah Some celebrities really don't get in the public eye at all.
Speaker: And yeah, What has become very difficult with the advent of smartphones, the internet, and constant accessibility and online is that um that attempt to maintain privacy is easier to violate by an outside person.
Speaker: And a lot of people don't seem to have had this sort of social upbringing that tells them that you can't just go up and demand from somebody their, like,
Speaker: I don't know, exposure of personal self because you like a thing they made. And they aren't your friend. Right. Right. Yeah, the parasocial relationship. The parasocial of it all. Yeah. yeah Yeah. And that, I mean, that's tricky, I think, because, like, with the explosion of things like YouTube celebrities and stuff who are streaming, like, you know, hours upon hours straight a day and are supposedly showing you insight to their personal lives, like, because they're always on, so to speak, that has, I think, warped some people's sense of celebrity. absolutely. Yeah. um
Speaker: And I think that... That's really unfortunate. I don't blame the people making that content. That's not what I'm saying. um What I'm saying is just that like when it feels like it's an ever present thing, it starts to make everybody feel like, well, why can't that be the case with all the things I consume alike?
Speaker: Yeah. And I think, I think it's also to add on to the content creators, but also like ah people, ah we talked about it in, in the Carly Rae Jepsen episode that people like Taylor Swift who have built a brand on we're best friends, like my fans are my best friends. Yeah.
Speaker: And it's like, no, no, they're not. And when you try and draw, and I'm, this is not going to be celebrity blaming. Like this is sure This is a kind of a perfect storm, but it's like,
Speaker: When you build your entire brand by saying, you guys are my best friends, my fans are my best friends, and blah, blah, blah, and then they don't get access to you, what you're going to get is a bunch of like feral goblins on the other side. And no, they don't have the right to you because like they don't know you personally, but they think they do.
Speaker: Yeah, and and you kind of opened the door too, which again, not celebrity blaming, but it is like... It's your responsibility to draw the line in a way. And like, this is also the truth in real life, like not even just celebrity versus fan. This is the truth in, in real life of like, Hey, you you are far too familiar with, with me. Like, I don't know you like that.
Speaker: Yeah, I can, ah a version of that I got from ah one of my coworkers recently is that her husband is, like, concerned because there's a person at work that's, like, basically, like, it trying to inject themselves into their relationship and, like, project their version of that relationship while this person is also going through their own relationship issues. Right. So it's almost like...
Speaker: they're doing that comparison is the thief of joy thing, but they're also way too into, you know, my colleague and her husband's wife that this is not like a friend of theirs. This is a coworker of her husband. Right. So it's like, I don't know you like that. You are not, we are not friends like that, but it, it,
Speaker: And this happens a lot in nerd spaces and I see it. yeah It happens a lot specifically in nerd spaces. I think because there's this like social awkwardness, loner thing that like they, they, and also I think it has a lot to do with neurodivergence and like odd attachment, which is something that some people can't help, but also it's behavior that,
Speaker: can be corrected if it's gently handled because like also you get you you can get the the obsessive fan that becomes an actual stalker and is doing things that are illegal and does become you know a threat in which now people are getting security people are getting police escorts people are getting all of these things right so like I think what what happens when boundaries are not appropriately set and aren't like really expressed to people, it's like, hey, you guys are great and I'm so grateful that you're my fans. Yeah.
Speaker: But at the end of the day, I am still like a regular person who has to live. And I think what happened, actually, this is a great example, is it was happening to Chapel Roan. Yes, big And Chapel Rhone, she made ah a huge statement by drawing a line. Yep.
Speaker: And super pissed. People were pissed about that. And I was so happy when she did it. She has every right to do that. and that she And taking it back to heated rivalry, when this started happening, the lead writer, creator, Jacob Tierney, who is, as we understand, amazing, um he made a great statement by saying, Shane and Ilya belong to the fans, but Connor and Hudson belong to themselves. That's so well said.
Speaker: yeah that is That is the exact encapsulation of what it means. And that's and that's exactly it. But also at the same time, Shane and Ilya do belong to us at as being fans the same way that like, oh, Star Wars belongs to you and blah, blah, blah. But right at the end of the day, you didn't write I to say they belong to Shane and Ilya belong to Rachel Reed. Rachel Reed, right. i guess And you are allowed to love them and feel all of the feelings about these fictional characters. See Doctor Who, see any of the critical role characters, see Star Wars, Star Trek, see and the ACOTAR books, any of that stuff. All of those fictional characters and universes, you are allowed to be as obsessed with them as you want because they're not fucking real.
Speaker: Right. You don't get to own them because you they are not your IP. You didn't write any of that shit. You didn't create any of that shit. Yeah. You can write your fanfics and do your thing. But the people playing these characters and the writers and the creative teams and all of those people are actual human beings.
Speaker: They're real people that are not your friends. Well, and I think weirdly the way we met is probably a good example of where you can build a relationship with content creators and people that actually does become a kind of friendship but it's a friendship that respects the difference between who is who so tell the story essentially i've been a fan of penny arcade and pax in east is uh the big show here um years back before my son was born actually when molly was pregnant i broke my leg in a charity hockey tournament and i at the time had been watching a lot of the twitch streams that ah were you modding at that point or were you just in the i was just at the streams i wasn't mod yet And so I was particularly watching Gav and Dave, who are my still my favorite people over at PA, um because they used to do their scary game thing. And it was just a delight to be in there and in the chat.
Speaker: And they got wind through the chat of what happened. And Dave Allen reached out to me personally and basically said, if I got you tickets, would you come to East? um Which I wasn't planning on paying for anything like that. I just broke my leg. So I was able to get myself down there.
Speaker: um Dave was delightful. He took me to to dinner one of the nights we were there. And we have remained friends who talk probably once every three or four months via yeah a couple messages. But I also got to meet Mike and Jerry, who are people don't know are the people who created Penny Arcade, the webcomic, and then PAX.
Speaker: And it was like the most incredible experience for me because I loved these guys and their work, but they were so nice and kind to me and everyone else who wanted to come up and say hi to them. And I can wrap this in a way by last East, I actually was on the floor of PAX with my wife.
Speaker: And Jerry just happened to be right there and she saw him and she has not met Jerry. And she walked up to him and said hi And he started talking to her and she waved me over because she's like, don't you want to talk to Jerry? And it was at that point that Jerry and I, he took him a minute. and He realized he remembered we had met before and we chatted for a bit and he went on his way and I went on my way.
Speaker: And it was all just to say that like that fandom was really important to me at at the time. At one point, I know I sent them beer and a letter basically saying that at certain point, Penny Arcade really helped me with a lot of my mental health issues because it gave me a delightful outlet.
Speaker: Um, and the fact that they're still out there and still friendly with the fans, uh, but you know that there's a, I'm not, I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but knowing that there's a boundary or a barrier, like ah there's a line there, right?
Speaker: Like I can go up and talk to Jerry as Jerry and, you know, we can laugh and be, and have fun, like, and then, Hey, see you later. You know, he's going to go do his thing and I'm going to go do my thing. And I'm not going to see him again. If I see him at all for like another year.
Speaker: It's like, that's a perfectly reasonable relationship to have right with someone. One, because that person is inviting it and welcoming it. And two, because you as the fan do have to know, like, you could be friendly with this person, but they have an entire life that exists outside of you.
Speaker: and they're kind enough to give you that little window in. And like, it is different, I guess for us, because we've literally gone out to parties with these guys and stuff. We do know them. That's a relationship that we've kind of honed over. it took years. Oh yeah. It certainly took years and to build that relationship. And it was never a relationship. Like I said, where I felt I'm entitled to know what's going on in Mike or Jerry or Dave's personal life, you know, right like never felt that way. I got to send, you know, I think I said, Dave, a very nice, like congratulations card when he got married.
Speaker: That's about as far as it went. Like, So it's okay to build a relationship with someone who you're a fan of. Right. um But there is also a recognition that it's like, I am a person who knows this person because of my fandom and who admires their work. And now I get to also admire what I know of them as a person.
Speaker: And it doesn't mean I need to become involved in their lives. Right. And i'm obsessed with them to the point that like, right, we're we're talking about like, and even since we've spoken. So again, to put it into context, it is the end of January. So like right now, one of the stars is in Europe doing fashion week stuff. And he looking fabulous, by the way. looking unbelievable like honestly just a sidebar holy shit i i mean like that on purpose every every time i'm like i hate men and will never ever think that they're attractive that this fucking guy pops up you're like god you also you're way too young but like so but okay anyway his grooming team deserves a medal like really knocking it out of the park yeah but
Speaker: This man is just like trying to live his best 24 year old life in Europe, like getting to go to fashion shows like again. and and he just did an interview, which I think is fantastic um with ah Evan Ross Katz. he really like.
Speaker: he he's ah he's definitely, his public persona is like so unmedicated goblin mode. Like he's very ADHD and very like, I'm having the best time of my life. Double middle fingers at the glam bot. Like he's that guy.
Speaker: But like in the interview, he's very he's very candid about... the the meteoric rise to fame in 30 days is what some people don't get in 30 years. Right. And he went from being able to like go to the corner store to buy lighters and cigarettes in sweatpants and a hat to like not being able to like step out his door without people like snapping photos of him or like he can't eat a meal without being interrupted. Like all of that stuff
Speaker: is is new to him and it's not that he's not enjoying it but it it is really invasive yeah there is actually weirdly a very good because I watched Ted Lasso I had watched not too long ago but when the character of Nathan who you know, goes from being the manager at West Ham and then he leaves the job.
Speaker: Like everybody's trying to find out why he left the job. It's his whole big tabloid story. And he's like hiding in his apartment. Like not what can't literally again, can't go outside and like, just like be outside because everybody wants to interrogate about what's going on.
Speaker: That's what it makes me think of like a sudden leap from like, people know you or are friendly with you and maybe are even familiar with some of your work or are fans to their like climbing walls to get to you. We're talking like Beatlemania stuff, right? Yeah, exactly. And he talks about it on the podcast, like that that it's like the Beatlemania of it all. He talks about like the BTS of it all, like not being able to go out anywhere without armed security.
Speaker: for his own safety, but also for other people's safety because fans are, and I, and having been a fan again, i was there during the height of NSYNC. I get it. Having been, but like never been that idiot. They will put themselves in danger.
Speaker: yeah right right For the chance at an autograph, for the chance at a photo. And like, how much of a pain in the ass is it that like, everywhere you go, there's a phone in your face? yeah You know, like, it's just, and people will say, oh, well, they invited this, they decided to be actors. and No, they didn't. They decided to be actors, yes. And they understand that they have... been become part of this like fixed moment in time phenomenon but they did not give you permission to interrupt lunch like with you know ah a potential like a friend like just yeah you you can wave and nod and be respectful and keep it fucking moving i can't tell you how many people again we'll talk about packs right yeah we
Speaker: We are we are both gamers. We are both nerds. There are there are people that are celebrities in our spaces that may not be considered celebrities elsewhere yeah that we have interacted with. And it is very easy for me to wave nods, say, hey, and keep it fucking moving. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: A hundred percent. Yeah. Like there are a number of people that just from sheer exposure of being at the same conventions over and over and over again, i know at a glance. And for other people like, oh, my God, like I can't believe you know them. And I'm like, yeah, because they're a regular fucking person. And you don't see me screaming and crying and throwing myself to the ground.
Speaker: Yeah. And begging them to step on me. You know, like it's just come on. Well, ah since you brought up the idea of, like, actors, like, that excuse of, like, because they're actors, they invite us on this. I know that we talked about one of these examples I had was Macaulay Culkin, who, like...
Speaker: So basically, for those who are unfamiliar, if anyone were, Culkin blows up as a child actor. He's an enormously successful child actor. It's also, I mentioned on a previous podcast we did, I Like Me, the the documentary on John Candy, has a really emotional bit with Macaulay Culkin talking about working with Candy and how much it meant to him.
Speaker: But like Culkin was an an enormous star as a child actor, also being like emotionally abused by his father, who was apparently quite the monster. Yeah. And ah fans got it into their heads that they had a certain right to this person's personal life. Right. Meaning Culkin.
Speaker: And I don't know the exact timeline of it, but like once he aged out of adorable kid stage and kept trying to act in like other capacities, he really struggled. Or at least he didn't hit with fans. I mean, I haven't ever gone back and looked at any of his stuff from like when he tried acting as a older, you know, adolescent or whatever. Like party down? Yeah.
Speaker: He's in Saved, which is I think is one of the most underrated movies of all time. Okay, yeah. He's like great in that movie. But, like, everybody kind of turned on him because he wasn't that kid anymore. Yeah. Almost as though he owed it to them to be that same person. It's like well one, he's a child. He's going to get older. Right. ah And two, like...
Speaker: no like this is he's an actor like and the idea that well he's got all this the excuse is like well he got all this money you know he chose this he got like i'm sorry money doesn't fix trauma like that that's a man who was traumatized by his experience it also doesn't invite you to become possessive to the point of obsession Yeah, and I will say that, like, Macaulay Culkin I bring up mostly because it seems like he's come out the other side of that dark but stuff and really is doing well, and it makes me very happy to see that.
Speaker: If you see the I Like Me documentary, and then i just he just recently appeared on the Fallout Season 2 and was great, like, playing, you know. It's so funny because he does still look like Macaulay Culkin, the kid actor, even though he's our age. Like, you know, but he...
Speaker: He's just he's doing acting again. He looks like he's having fun, you know, like playing different kinds of roles and doing little spot features like and everybody has finally fucking left him alone, which is the only reason I think that he's able to do this again.
Speaker: um But like that falls on the fans like you don't get to demand of somebody, an actor, that they be what you want them to be or give you access to them.
Speaker: And I have to tell you, when those people break or, you know, stop doing what they're doing and the people who same people who get mad about that are, I guarantee, the same people that caused that. that caused it. Yes. And that's that's been the big thing, right? Yeah. So Threads has become like the place where the less toxic heated rivalry fans have kind of gathered. I guess Twitter X or whatever has been like where a lot of the toxicity is. Shocker. shock Shocker. But like that's where a lot of like the unsolicited.
Speaker: Wow. Unsolicited like paparazzi photos are or like, the you know, the people that are speculating about love lives and who's in a relationship with whom and like all of that stuff. Right. Like, yeah.
Speaker: you know first of all people uh need to get a better hobby than uh trying to meddle in other people's lives maybe like fix your own before you try to get involved in other people's but like fame does not automatically grant you access to a person it doesn't allow you to be a weirdo to a person and what what the problem i'm having is just what what's going to happen is is already happening with with these two again 24 and 25 year old men who were unknowns yeah in november of 2025 it is january okay two months
Speaker: january ok so two months ago The only people that could have picked them out of a lineup might have been like a handful of heated rivalry book readers who had seen them from the back wearing the jerseys. Like nobody knew who these fucking guys were like. Yeah. and now what's happening is they the meteoric rise and they've signed to CAA for management.
Speaker: And because of all of this fucking craziness and because of this meteoric rise, they've like shut down social media. Yeah. So like ever they're not updating unless it's like a professional shot or an interview or any of that. So I'm like, you're not going to get any of their candidates. They're not going to give you anything more than they're already giving you because they've you have shown that you can't be trusted with it. Right. Right.
Speaker: and And the unfortunate part about this is like, it's not their fault, obviously. That like the show exploded like it did. But I'm thinking of, i don't know if you ever saw the film Prey that got made. It was 2022. I remember it, but I didn't see it.
Speaker: Well, so it was big because it was obviously it was a predator film, but it was set in like the colonial colonization period of North America. And, The two, the main cast was all of, I don't want to get the particular indigenous group wrong. So I'm Comanche, sorry. I had to look it up. um kind But Amber Midthunder and Dakota Beavers, the two main actors in that were complete unknowns or mostly unknowns or at the very least had not blown up.
Speaker: That film got like massive attention from like being sneaky good. It was weirdly not released in theaters. So it just came out on like Hulu. um That's what it was. Yeah, but it was like super well received and they both got huge bumps, but it didn't have the explosive spread of like, you know, zeitgeist attention that this did. And in a weird way, it's like they now are having a better opportunity to have a career and a life that's not going to get blown up by shitty fans.
Speaker: Than the actors for Heated Rivalry. Just because they had a less successful. But successful enough property. That shouldn't be the way it works. Like you should not have to like thread a needle.
Speaker: To maintain your own privacy. You want to get famous but not too famous. And also because you don't control that. Like to say that like they chose to be actors. It's like well there's like. Thousands of actors out there, many of whom toil in like local like plays and shows. And like you're telling me that, oh, if one of them blows up and it ruins their life like because it cuts them off from so much of what they're used to in their social circle, that's their fault? like Give me a fucking break. I would argue also that it really depends on context because...
Speaker: you see you you see fandoms explode around these things you see them explode around doctor who you see them explode around things obviously like heated rivalry and then you see them explode around things like critical role their fandom extremely toxic you see them but like okay let's take the like the Occasionally incredibly toxic fandom of Critical Role, but also show it the fandom of Dimension 20. Yep. Which is largely better yeah and less toxic because I feel like the boundary was much clearer from the start about like...
Speaker: These characters are we created them. We are regular people like yeah and we love you guys, but we're still normal human beings that have to go to our nine to five jobs. Like there is something around the parasocial of it all with Critical Role because I was a day one Critical Role fan, but I refuse to participate in the fandom because holy shit.
Speaker: Well, ah so there's there's the kinds of fandom that are fucked like the parasocial one. The other one, I brought up Fair Hervari before, is the fandom that acts like ownership over a poverty. Stop dropping shit. What are you doing over there? That wasn't me. That Sorry, folks. ah I'm going to cut it. Double it. Keep it in. um No, ah there's the fandom of like ownership, right?
Speaker: yeah where And this happens, I think the life cycle looks a lot like this. Something usually in like nerd culture, but it can be in other things, you know like a niche sport, but it's it's something niche, right?
Speaker: um starts with a very small, very tight following. And you get lots of people who are like, i was there at the beginning kind of stuff. And then as it becomes more popular, the mainstream reaction to it, as it grows into the mainstream,
Speaker: is that some of those fans from back when it first was in its gritty early days start acting like, well, that's not my fucking whatever. um A small version of this that I won't go into any detail on is the new predator film, Badlands, which I loved, decided to be a like adventure film and not a horror movie. And old school fans were like, well, people are pissed about that. Yeah. And I'm like, if you just went in and watched it, that's a very fucking good movie. It's a load of fun.
Speaker: And you need to like, let it go. Also, frankly, if you had read any of the Predator comics that were written post the films, it's it's going after that vibe. Sorry, could you well actually and push your glasses up when you say that first? Actually. um But what I will say about Peter Ferhavari, so I mentioned he's a 40K writer. So 40K, again, i'm not going all into the weeds, but like it's a war gaming tabletop system that like has now spilled over obviously into video games and Henry Cable is going to do a TV series and I bet you'll be fucking awesome.
Speaker: um But like You know, it's got a grim it's grim dark, right? Like in in the 41st millennium, there is only war is like the whole tagline. So like it's supposed to be the grimmiest, darkest of dark, right?
Speaker: However, it's got like, it's clear kind of like, That's crazy.
Speaker: bodies and keep their souls in them right like it's like that going crazy We're going for the yeah, ah tons of 40k lore is crazy. I would encourage by the way anybody interested in getting into it that doesn't know anything about it. Listen to the Adeptus Ridiculous podcast, because those one Bricky and DK are fantastic people.
Speaker: And also, it's a very great, funny entry into it that doesn't try to get bogged down in like the nitty gritty debates over lore, which is why I like it. But anyway, there's like a solid chunk of people who were 40K people, you know, back in the 70s and 80s who like Peter Ferravari comes around, this writer.
Speaker: And what he has done is he's written this series that he's like essentially got books that are standalone and short stories, but they overlap in terms of themes, locations and characters. And it's very abstract. And he does some really like out there ideas with like, what would chaos and like the idea of like these warp things getting into the world that I mentioned in the, or like kind of prologue, what it would really feel and look like in a very, like, I'm not going to handhold you through this way. You know, and no one's going to show up on the page and be like, my goodness, there it is. The Lord of decay. Like that's not going to happen in his stories. Yeah. he's going to show you through the eyes of people who don't know what the fuck is happening, but know that it's bad, right?
Speaker: And the reaction has been that unlike other writers in the 40K stable, like your Dan Abnitz, Guy Haley, who by the way are both great writers, because he's working in a much more abstract way, there's like a huge amount of people in the fandom that are like, he doesn't write real forty k stuff.
Speaker: And what's super funny, and the reason I got into this dive on it, because I was very curious what people thought of him, because he he struck me as so brilliant. He was on Reddit, like, under his, like, handle talking to people. And, of course, someone on Reddit, because it's Reddit, comes in and just trashes that he's a shit writer. He doesn't understand and he doesn't get the vibe.
Speaker: And he came into the comments and just said, hey, I write these stories this way. If you don't like it, just don't read them. Don't read them. And, you know, go read somebody else. That's cool, man. Don't worry about it. And of course, the same poster had to keep coming back and trying to justify why their version of things was right. And he should stop writing because he was writing the wrong way. And that is the kind of toxic fandom ownership that I fucking hate because it's like, no, he gave you your answer, which is Don't read it.
Speaker: And I feel like I can say this because I have read Guy Haley and Dan Abnett, who are very highly rated among the general fandom of Warhammer writers. Like, their writing's good.
Speaker: But Farhavari is writing on a different level in a very different way. And I would argue his, like, those other two are writing... you You know, epics and like sort of like what you consider for taking films as an example, like blockbusters, right? Faribari is writing weird fucking indie stuff.
Speaker: You know what i mean? Like he's doing something in the same genre, but he's really pushing the edges of what that genre is. Well, and the point is is that there's room for all of them. Exactly. And that's what I was going to get to is like there is space for both these things to exist, which is actually what his posting response said.
Speaker: And that's what frustrates me is like if you're in a someone who's in the fandom that like feels like you because it is a thing you like, it has to continue to be the thing in the way that you like it.
Speaker: You're wrong. You don't have to read that stuff then. Just don't read it. Ignore it and read the stuff that you do like. Because guess what? People are still making the other stuff. It's not like it's not out there.
Speaker: so Right. And fandoms have like, and I'll say this as somebody who has an attachment kind of like, who has an attachment personality thing and who knows how to hyper-focus like nobody else's business, but like fandoms can break your heart because IPs can break your heart, right? Or creators. I mean, I think of Neil Gaiman. We're not going to be to talk about it on the podcast because we'll both get too upset. I will be so angry and just, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I am still, as much as it pains me to say it because of all the stuff that's come out with Gaiman, Sandman is still my all-time favorite graphic novel. Yeah. Particularly the first couple of them. But it's permanently tainted. I haven't been able to, I adored the Netflix series, and I haven't been able to go back and watch it. I watch season two. I can't. I mean, I will tell you that the first or second episode, I don't remember which one,
Speaker: with Cain and Abel made me sob uncontrollably. And the death episode also was just an absolute gut wrench in the, in the best way, but I'm sorry, like that it's been ruined.
Speaker: And yeah, you're talking about somebody like good omens was fucking God tier. And two of favorite actors and people of all time. no Yeah. the And like I'm sitting here looking at my bookshelf, right, with with a dozen books turned around because I can't even look at their titles anymore. And I haven't been able to bring myself to get rid of them because a lot of them are autographed. But also I can't even look at them because I'm so heartbroken. So like, yes, there are things that we love that are going to break our hearts because something is going to happen. Either the story is going to end in a really shitty way, or all of a sudden the creator is going to turn into a monster. Hello, looking at you, HP. You know, like there, yeah he might've always been a monster period, but yeah, at least he's dead. So no one's profiting off his monstrosity. Yeah. There's just, there's so many things that can go wrong with something that you love, right? Because it it can end in a way that you don't want it to. And you're allowed to be heartbroken as a fan. However, and you're allowed to voice, you're like, Hey, I don't i don't like that this happened. And you're like, hey, guess what? You're allowed to not like how this happened. You aren't allowed to threaten the author or creator of that thing. You aren't allowed to, you know, send them a ransom note with but clippings from a magazine as to why you think that they're the fucking worst. You aren't allowed to send them death threats or other threats because of things. You aren't allowed to stalk them at the grocery store. Like,
Speaker: You are going to have to move on with your life. And I think that's where a lot of people get hung up is that when fandom ends or when when it shifts, the they don't know how to let it go.
Speaker: So this is a thing that I wanted to bring up and there's a specific game I wanted to make mention for this kind of fandom, which is the obsessive fandom. Like this is my whole personality. Yeah. And it's Undertale. Yes. Which I don't know. Have you played Undertale? I have watched so many people play Undertale, but it's not my kind of game. So I never played it myself. So Erica, my sister who's been on this is like ah a big Undertale fan, but not not in the way we're about to criticize. Right. Not a fanatic. I want to make that clear. um Right.
Speaker: And she like is to my shame that I've never finished it because I did try to play it and just the bullet hell, I don't like that kind of Yeah, I don't like those. I went and watched someone finish the game and and the different endings and stuff. Yeah. um I will tell you this right now. It's a brilliant game. it does it's It's amazing what it accomplishes in terms of using the interactivity and the agency to tell the story.
Speaker: um like It's such a brilliant move. I would argue... That um there have been other games that have done similar things, but just haven't captured the attention of a younger generation the way that did.
Speaker: The problem with Undertale has nothing to do with the game itself. I think the game is great. It's the people who have turned it into their entire personality. Yep. and are unwilling to grow past that or to become fans of something else they just want like ah you know it's it's the kinds of fans that go like do you watch or play this and when you say no they scoff at you right like right you're not like you're not cool and smart enough to see this thing rick and morty fans would be another one i would put in there which like i did watch that show i get it like it's it's good like i get why people liked it but also it's like it's not
Speaker: fucking that good guys like if this is like it's good and if and if for you it is the end all be all if for you it's shakespeare then that's great but like you need to please branch out i'm begging you for your own good too also like you're you're allowed to like other things and you're allowed to not you know but be only that that fandom right like that there are other things that you can do and also you know like what circling it back to like to tv shows and you know tv shows move on they end and and i know that a lot of people's lives are incredibly bleak right now because you know being alive is Hell, right? And you need something to cling on to. And I think a lot of the people are are saying that like, oh, I feel like they're like my my my kids because they're all fucking my age, right? And all these two 20-year-old men.
Speaker: But it's like. That doesn't make it better. um Please, please ah touch grass. I'm begging you. that yeah if yeah If you take anything from this episode, please touch grass. I'm begging you. it's I'm not saying it's not okay to be obsessive about a thing. As someone who's obsessive about several things, that's fine. It's just that you have to also engage with um other stuff as well. And i do think it's really important to like acknowledge there's stuff out there that's good that you're just not into and that's fine because like what i really don't like are dismissive obsessive fandoms where it's like only this particular thing whether it's a genre of storytelling or music or whatever or even just a specific ip and then everything else is trash it's like well you know i will say like i i don't really like country music very much
Speaker: it's because it's terrible. Well, but you know what? No, Trevor, it's terrible. Well, but like real country, not like pop country music that I've been shown by my friend Wes, who is musician and a folk and like more like blue grassy stuff. Yeah. yeah like my Americana. It's taken me until I was like in my late thirties, you know, I'm now 40, like to realize like, oh, there is actually stuff in this quote unquote umbrella genre that I do like. Right. You know, Townes Van Zandt is a great example. um But like,
Speaker: You know, if you don't have the willingness to at least say like, ah, I recognize the artistry in that, you know? Yeah. like I'm happy that you're happy is usually my go-to. Not my style, but if it brings you joy, yeah and that's fine. I remember in college, so like in college, I had my two, two of my best friends, Nick and Seth, like we, we had a forced triple together freshman year. And then Seth and I lived together the rest of the time, but Nick, we've never stopped being friends.
Speaker: And like Nick in the first couple of years, like Seth was, you know, typical suburban white boys. He and I were very into rap, you know, you cause of Eminem. I was also, I was also really into metal because of like, I was, you know, I just fell in love with like corn and stuff. You could not have ended that sentence in a more surprising way. Oh, yeah. i Well, I mean, Eminem was the gateway for a lot of suburban white boys. Listen, I know, just because we're of similar age. but Yeah.
Speaker: yeah and And to be fair, I would also argue ah Eminem is incredible at what he does. So, like, it's reasonable. But... For Nick, he was a drummer and like a real like music head like the guy knew like he introduced me to Say Anything, which is an incredible band. I love to Say Anything. Like so he gave me that I think the first insight into it where he was so down on rap, but by like sophomore year, he was like, I don't really like it, but I see the artistry. Yeah. Like and that moment really helped me go like, OK, if he can do that, like, why can't I do that with other stuff?
Speaker: And I actually think the reason I ended up becoming somebody who liked horror films and and ideas more later, like in my 20s, was because I got to hear him say that. And then I was like, you know what?
Speaker: This thing I've kind of dismissed or written off. I think I can dabble in it and find something that I like. And then, you know, i see something like The Thing or The Babadook and I'm like, damn, this stuff is good. Like there's some good shit in here. Or like my personal favorite, one of my favorite scenes of all time, Midnight Mass, which is a fucking...
Speaker: ah That is the best. I like flannagan Mike Flanagan a lot, but Midnight Mass got me good. I don't know if you've seen it, but well of course not. Have I? No. ah Holy shit. that did And that's not because I don't like horror. It's because I'm scared of everything. yeah I don't dislike horror. I'm just a scaredy cat. I'm just terrified all the time. But we we did talk about this, though. like The thing of it is, is that what really bothers me with fandom is an unwillingness to let people change and try new stuff. And I equated it earlier when we were talking to the idea of the band that puts out an album, they blow up and then they do another album.
Speaker: And then at some point they do an album where they try to drift away from their sound or what they're doing. A rock opera. And you're like, Ooh, okay. I will actually. Okay. So I don't know how you feel about Lincoln park, but I am. I Chester Bennington and Lincoln park. I was a huge fan of them and I still think they're quite good.
Speaker: But so they basically released hybrid theory and I don't, a meteor, I think was the second album. And I remember listening to meteor. And this was when I was in like high school or college. And I was like, this is the same album.
Speaker: Like these songs all have different names, but it's just the same thing. Right. And people were like, Oh my God, I'm so excited. And then they did like, I do think this was when when we were in college, like minutes to midnight.
Speaker: which had so many different things they were trying. Like Bennington was doing like crooning instead of just like his incredible vocal range to like, you know, scream in a way that still sounded beautiful. And like, and I remember walking away from that album the first time. And then I immediately listened to it again all the way through. Cause I was like, I think this is the best thing they've ever done.
Speaker: And it's so amazing that they've done something so different. Everybody fucking hated it Yeah. And it was the fans that were like, I want them to do more of what they did before. And I want to tell people this very clearly.
Speaker: No, you don't. You don't actually want a creator or a band or a whatever to keep just making the same thing. And I will give you two concrete examples of why.
Speaker: The first one is the series Saw. Okay? Those have progressively... First of all, the first one, spoiler alert, it's not very good, guys. Stop acting like that's a great movie. What? oh Saw's my favorite movie, Trevor. I know that's a lie. Okay, you do you want to know something that isn't a lie? I saw the second one in the theaters. What? I cried. cried. Yeah, I believe it. I believe it. That is not a movie made for you. um But like, that's a series where the first one was fine and it just has gotten progressively worse as it goes on. The other example I will give as much as I like the man is Stephen King.
Speaker: Stephen King has written some great books, but like he won. It doesn't help that he churns them out, you know, constantly because of who he is. But like it's because of the cocaine. but Well, I used to be the cocaine. Now I think it's just who he is as a person. But like it's diminishing returns, honestly, like and that's fine. But I you know what? I it sounds insane. I would actually love to see Stephen King try to write a romance novel or like like something like it would be interesting to see him write something.
Speaker: a little bit outside of where he is. and the reason say- Who knows? Maybe he has under a pen name. Do we know? Well, he wrote a book called The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, which I remember reading, think, in middle school. And like it's about a girl who gets lost in the woods and is just her obsessive obsession with like a relief pitcher for the for the Red Sox.
Speaker: And it's actually like a lovely story, except that she's being stalked by some entity that may or may not really be there. And it's like, if you just took that element out of it and he just wrote a story about a girl lost in the woods, who's like admiration for this sports icon she's never met is the thing that kept her going.
Speaker: It would have been a fan of things. Yeah, like I think that it ties in. incredible tie-in yeah also misery no yeah it's like it you know because i guess the point i'm trying to make is like you don't actually want someone just to stick in their wheelhouse all the time it gets stale yeah eventually you do want them to go out and try stuff and it's okay if they fail by the way like that's right fine like you said maybe stephen king has written something outside that genre i just don't know it maybe it was bad but like
Speaker: yeah I want people to try that. Like I would argue Neil Young is maybe the greatest musical artist of the last like 50 years. And it's because he's just keeps making different albums. He's just weird. Yeah. He's just like, I just want to make music and I don't want to make the same thing twice. So I made a metal album. Like, Okay. then As somebody who controversially loves all of the albums that people hate from all of the bands that I like, like my favorite band is Green Day. They have been for a really long time. ah People really, this is my controversial but brave opinion. My favorite Green Day album is Warning. Okay. Oh, I love Warning. it is the most anti-Green Day record
Speaker: Of all of the Green Day records, especially from early, like early era, late, late 80s, early 90s Green Day, like yeah Stiff Little Fingers Green Day for it to go. like But warning to me is my favorite of their records. And people think I have lost my mind. See also my favorite New Found Glory album is Sticks and Stones, which people hate. But I don't care because I love them. But also I'm not going to sit here and I will argue until I'm blue in the face that they're my favorite album. I'm not going to try and convince you that they need to be your favorite album. And I think that is that that was that last category fandom that I wanted to get to, which is the like... It's not ownership. It's the idea that ah the self-righteousness, the need to be right. You know? That kind of fandom is the thing that drives me insane. Like,
Speaker: i um Like, since we're on the music topic, like, I have always been a huge fan of the Gorillaz. And I, I, my favorite album is Demon Days. I think that's the most incredible, like, type of album. But, like, I just love that every time they go and make an album, um I can't think of the name of the, the guy who actually is the, like,
Speaker: Damon what's his face yeah yeah every time he goes and makes an album he does something different like he just does a different album Albarn Damon Albarn yeah I love Damon Albarn because I love that he's just like I'm just gonna make different stuff every time think it's great i I love when artists do that because like fucking hey it's art right and he he treats it that way in a way that I don't think other people um necessarily do and like that's what i want i want artists to try different things and see if it works and i don't care like they can they can fail like you know one of my favorite directors is um the guy who made the rig um
Speaker: shit I'm blanking on his name. I'll have to look it up. But he just did a movie called Havoc with Tom Hardy, which I was extremely excited to see. And ah Havoc was okay. gareth evans Gareth Evans. Thank you. I was going to say that, but I thought I was wrong for some reason. But yeah, Gareth Evans.
Speaker: And Havoc was okay. and And I wanted it to be great. And what I didn't do is then decide to demand that it actually was great and everybody was wrong.
Speaker: yeah but Like I just went, yeah, yeah, that wasn't, that wasn't what I was hoping for. It's a, point you know, but it did help me find a Fontaine's DC, the the Irish band that did the trailer song that I fucking love now. So yeah, it's a wash silver linings. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: But like, you know, it's just, I fandom where we demand things that we have no right to demand It's just why are you why are you wasting that energy on that?
Speaker: Don't. like it's you don't get to like It's not to change the outcome also, ultimately. like You're just taking something down or making other people feel bad for liking something.
Speaker: What are you getting out of that? That's what I always want to know. Right. I just, I struggle. find it interesting that if like, you're gonna, you're gonna shout me down, you're gonna keyboard warrior me, you're gonna argue with me on al Gore's internet about, you know, why I'm wrong about this. And it's like, hey, um,
Speaker: we both like the thing. Right. Like it's okay to both like the thing or it's okay for you to like it. And for me not to like it, you you don't have to try and convince me. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying, you must convince people that your opinion is the only opinion. And therefore, you know, like I, in the grand scheme, does it matter?
Speaker: this i will say the last kind of fandom that I think, i want to see less of the toxic fandom is the like.
Speaker: Demanding that something be what you thought it was After you've experienced it. And this is this is specifically for me, this is with video games and going to use and I know we've talked about this, but Hellblade as an example. So if anybody's not seen Hellblade, Senua's Sacrifice, Senua's Saga, they are these absolutely mind bendingly realistic looking like adventure games.
Speaker: And. What happened here with this, in my opinion, and this is I'm going to state clearly, this is 100% my opinion. The first game came out and kind of blew everybody away with how beautiful it was and how kind of like lacking in like UI.
Speaker: um Like it's just there's like basically no UI to the game. Like it just sort of teaches you how to play it. And then you kind of just vibe your way through it because it's so well done with the responsiveness to it. But like the idea is you're playing a Viking warrior who's trying to like reclaim her lost husband and then later trying to like get revenge on the people who took her husband away.
Speaker: okay Those are the two games. In the first one, like it's just there's these cinematic, and I can't stress this enough, gorgeous like battles through these places that are vaguely possibly like hellish or imagined because she clearly has schizophrenia. It's a major mechanic in the game that you hear voices all the time.
Speaker: So the first one was like a massive critical success and people really loved it. The second one came out and I had heard before I played it, because I think I bought it years after it came out that like it was not nearly as popular or well done. I played it. I fucking loved the second one. I was i thought that they they doubled down on the cinematic nature of it. The example I'll give is like in the first one, enemies would like phase in from the fog and fight you and then you defeat them and another enemy would phase in from the fog for like the next stage of the fight. And what they did instead in the second one is like you would defeat an enemy and then like a scripted cutscene would be where an enemy would come charge and like shoulder charge you down and then you get up and fight that next enemy.
Speaker: So it felt like a movie, right? Like it was so cinematic. And then I said, you know, i got curious about the reviews. Like why were people down on this game? And it was people basically saying the first game was a Souls-like essentially.
Speaker: ah And me going, what are we fucking talking about? Right. And it was like, they either had played and misunderstood the game for a reason I'll get into in a second. And there's a reason I picked Hellblade as my example.
Speaker: Or they were misremembering it as a different type of game than it was because there's a decent gap between the two. Like the Hellblade games have a version you can play that's like basically a story mode. It's never been a game that's intended to be like super hard, like you die and that's it. Game over thing. Yeah.
Speaker: um What I think got misinterpreted was in the first game, when you get killed, there's this like corruption that grows on your character through like black veins that start to show up. And the game tells you if the corruption reaches a certain point, your entire game is over and erased.
Speaker: That's a lie. The game actually does not do that. Okay. It's just a thing that the devs did as a way of like building attention in you as the player. But like, it doesn't ever actually happen.
Speaker: Now they did in the second game, add an option to make it. So you could have like a certain number of deaths before the game resets completely. If you really want to be that quote unquote hardcore. Sure. um But like, it was never the intention for this game to be a souls like, right?
Speaker: Or to be like a deeply unforgiving, combat-oriented game. But either because fans decided that was the game they wanted it to be, which is what I think happened, or they misremembered the first game being that, they shit all over it.
Speaker: And I find that so stupid. Like, yeah, you play it and you go, oh, it's not what I thought it was. It's not really what I like. If you're writing a good review of that, you say, i played this thinking it was X and it turned out to be Y. I don't particularly like Y, but if you do, you might enjoy it.
Speaker: But if you were looking for X, don't play this. That's an honest, good review. Yeah, but that's not going to get clicks. That's not going to get shared on the internet as being like, because that it's outrage culture, right? So like the it's the outrage of, I didn't like this and here's all of the reasons and I'm jumping up and down. I'm Tom Cruise. I'm in love. You like it's very like, you know, it's just stupid. Like if I have to sensationalize it. Otherwise, people aren't going to pay attention to the words that I'm saying. Right.
Speaker: And that that's silly, but... It happens with movies, too, where, like, you know, you can't make a movie... Like, one of the most classic twists of all time is Psycho, where your main character dies halfway through the film, and it's like, whoa, what is this actually about? Spoilers, Trevor? My bad. That movie came out 50 years ago. um But, like, it's the reason I say this is, like, you almost can't create a film in which you deceive the audience...
Speaker: to then play the trick on them of like, you thought you were coming in for this and it's actually this because people get mad and it's like, okay, but like, what if part of the trick or the twist is the sort of genre bend of it, which means that instead you get trailers that give away that there's a twist and it's like, well, now the film's not as fun. I don't need to see it. Yeah. Like, and I don't, I'm not saying there's a clear answer to that. Like I get it. Like you,
Speaker: People don't want to be tricked, and that's fair. you know like i don't want to go see a rom-com and have it be a gory horror film, actually. No, would be bad. that i would really I do want a heads up about that. but Yeah.
Speaker: But like I don't know why you can't present something as like, it's a serious film, and then it turns out to be a bit of a goof of the way through. it's a bit of a black comedy. you know like there There are things...
Speaker: there's There's a lot of nuance that I think is missed on on the on today's consumer, i've yeah I think. And if you don't present to them an exact what they're expecting, then you know your your thing is going to be flamed across the internet for being...
Speaker: oh, this isn't what I was expecting and I'm mad because of this. And you're like, okay, I mean, well that's fine. There's a good example of this, which is a movie you'll never see, but it's called Ready or Not. i don't know if you've heard of it. Nope.
Speaker: Yep. Okay. So it was framed as like... ah girl marries guy and turns out oh no his family's crazy and they're gonna try to kill her um but when i heard about this film okay yes but in actuality this film is funny as hell uh and the idea is basically these this this family is heirs to this incredible like um game fortune fortune like like like milton bradley think of that and so whenever one of them gets married The incoming spouse has to draw a card and play a game.
Speaker: And all of the games are totally mundane, except hide and seek, in which case they have to survive until the morning before being found and killed. what yeah the movie is so delightful and it's so funny but also like it's bloody and violent too but like i started watching this movie kind of like on a like casual whim and then went and got molly my wife who likes horror movies like 20 minutes in was like you need to come watch this like This is so fun. And it is like that.
Speaker: I know I don't even have to look it up. I guarantee you there are reviews of like, this was portrayed as a horror movie, but it's trying to be funny. And it's like, but that's the fun part. The fun part is that it's catching you off guard. And if it's well-made, that's fun.
Speaker: Like right imagine the sixth sense. If they're like, Oh, he's actually dead it the whole time guys. Like that's not fun. Come on. and that's why like i need people who are fans of genres or content or creators or whatever to be able to say i did not like x
Speaker: And that's okay. And that's okay. it Right there and just end it there. Yeah. I don't need them to harass stock or otherwise intervene in the lives of creators, actors, performers, whatever, or to like get in, like, you know,
Speaker: brigade you know games or albums or whatever with bad reviews because it didn't do the thing they personally wanted guess what you don't fucking get the right if you want it to be something else go make it your fucking self that's my final message about this if you want something and you don't think you're getting it from whatever you are a fan of cool dude go fucking make it yourself yeah if you think you can do better i welcome it Yeah, I say this as a person who writes fantasy novels, and I'm not saying that to say that I think I've written the greatest fantasy novel of all time, because clearly other people like J.K. No, oh, wait, no, not her, not her. No, no, no, sorry. J.R.R. Tolkien and Ursula Le Guin exist, right? yeah And N.K. Jemisin, who I also love.
Speaker: But like, I'm saying that as like, I wanted to tell a kind of story, so I went and wrote it. Right. Or like to go back to PAX, you know, Jerry always talked about writing a novel. He went and ran D&D game to do the story he wanted to do. Like, if you really do think there's an art out there that needs to be made, dude, go make it.
Speaker: Like, it i genuinely, go make it. One, you'll find out how hard it is to do, but you'll also grow a lot from doing that. I think that's the problem is there's fandoms that like, instead of making their own stuff, just get latched on to something someone else made and then think they own it. Yes. Like they bought stock in a company or a team.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. I don't really have anything else to say on that. I think that that's ultimately the, the end point. Like nobody made heated rivalry except for, Rachel Reed. Right. And so no one else gets to dictate.
Speaker: the way that story plays out other than her and McTierney. And if he wants to deviate for the film or the TV series. Right. And that's, and that's a collaborative thing. And like ah you aren't on the creative team and you aren't part of the show. you certainly aren't one of the lead actors in the show. And you don't have, just because you love a thing doesn't mean that you get to be ah obsessive to the point of danger over it. And you
Speaker: i am all for passion. i am team be passionate. There's no such thing as a guilty pleasure, only pleasure as far as I'm concerned. and yeah you know like you're You're allowed to love it. like You're allowed to be obsessed with K-pop. You are allowed to be obsessed with heated rivalry. You're allowed to be obsessed with whatever you want. But that does not give you the right to the the people that are making that thing.
Speaker: I would even extend this to like, this is going to sound like I'm really reaching here, but I i don't think I am. no Like if, if you like, I am a straight white male.
Speaker: Yeah. I don't care if you are in the LGBTQ community, gay, straight, bi, whatever. If what you're doing is making you happy, that's great. It's not for me.
Speaker: That's okay. right yeah that is the way that like i feel like people who treat art like something they get to own and dictate also think that they get to own and dictate how other people behave no you don't you you simply do not and also let me tell you this it's not affecting you it is not affecting you in any way what anyone else around you does that makes them happy period and i think that's the problem with fandom is like Why don't all these people adhere to what I want? Well, because they're different than you.
Speaker: Right. And that's actually a good thing. like And why can't I do this? Because it makes me happy. Well, because you're endangering other people's lives. Exactly. And also, like, that's a false kind of happiness, I would argue. I i would agree with that.
Speaker: I think that that's I think that honestly, that's people who get into that level of like fandom or obsession. It's like it. It's bordering on psychosis. It's giving it's giving it's time for therapy to discuss the obsessive niss of it is that if this is the only thing that makes you feel happy and alive is stalking a person who played a character on a on a fake show, if or who wrote a book, who sings a song, who did it, if. If your only joy in life is finding out what this person is doing every waking moment of every single day, that is something deeper that you need to have that you need to examine with a professional, in my opinion.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree with that. I also think that like it ultimately comes down to like. If you are like feeling like you need that level of control over something, there's a deeper problem. Yeah. And that that needs and I would advise you strongly to seek out some kind of mental health care to discuss that because it it is a form of obsessiveness. It is a form of compulsion. it is a form of attachment and detachment. And those can be signs of other factors. yes
Speaker: that. um before it becomes ah something that you get hurt over or that you get arrested for or you become, you know, kind of notorious for. And I would just think think twice before before you're doing these things. these These people have real lives and are real human beings and you have the right to be happy, but you don't have the right to control their happiness. Yeah, and I will say that this does not negate the fact that a lot of fandoms, hobbies, and things can begin as the way that you find yourself getting to the point where you know that you can reach out for those you know kinds of assistance. I have so many stories I could tell of like students that started playing things like D&D that that became...
Speaker: the way they realized they needed to seek out other kinds of like help and support because it gave them a safe space to be around other people and see that they did belong and fit in with other human beings.
Speaker: Right. But when it becomes a thing that you're leaning on it to stabilize you all the time, right that's that's the problem. And I say this from experience because I used ice hockey as a form of self-stabilizing where I remember telling a therapist that the only time I felt in control was when my skates touched the ice and remember being told, well, that's something we have to fix.
Speaker: And that's 100% true. It's like you, we do sometimes lean into the things that we do as a way of helping ourselves get through things that maybe we haven't confronted yet because it's hard to confront them, which is totally fair. As you've said, things are a little rough right now. Yeah. um But like, ultimately, you need to find things you can lean into instead of onto if that makes sense if you find yourself sobbing because an actor has a girlfriend i think you need to reevaluate because i i have i have news for you that actor was not going to date you
Speaker: that Yeah, that's a big thing too. And i'd like speaking as somebody who has met the majority of my closest friends because we were all fans of a thing, whether it be a video game, whether it be D&D, whether it be a book series. like I met my best friend because we both like weird books. you know like And here we are almost 20 years later. You and I are friends because we both like gaming and PAX and look at that. Weird.
Speaker: And like you're like, yes, you are allowed to form community around that. You are allowed to make your little fan edits. You're allowed to share photos from magazines and share articles and all of that stuff. You aren't allowed to stalk people. You you aren't. you and And you should not be having a complete meltdown if you see them out with ah somebody else in public that isn't you. Be like, sweetheart, I really think you need to talk to somebody about that. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: I think we've said everything we're going to say on this. I think we hit it. Yeah, I think we did. So if folks want to get asked with some ideas for episodes, once we get through, you know, this first season, which I think we're closing it on, baby, we're up to episode six. We might pack yeah be done by 10. It's going to be the, I think you should pod at gmail.com. You can also find me on my website, which is Trevor H Paul.com or on blue sky under TH Paul and be, if people want to find you, but if you don't want them to find you, you don't have to tell them where would that be?
Speaker: I'm at MX.bea.mcb on most platforms, but I'm most active on like TikTok and Instagram. So yeah, we'll close this with a fun story of ah after Molly came on the last episode to talk about stuff. She then came to me and said, this is my wife, by the way.
Speaker: Can you send me a link? I found, does she have TikTok? And I said, why don't you text her yourself? You also can be friends with her. but So if you want to be friends with me on TikTok, it's allowed and you can do it. Yeah. I post a lot of stuff about my cats and also my cool outfits because I am cool. Yep. It's true. I, I 100% agree with that statement. And also i like the cats. All right. Well, folks, that's a soad.
Speaker: Bye.
