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Laura Robb discusses Voice and Choice
205 Plays3 years ago
Author, teacher, coach, Robb’s newest book is Increase Reading Volume (NCTE 2022). Robb received NCTE’s Richard Halle award for excellence in middle school teaching. With more than 40 years of teaching experience, Robb has written extensively on reading and writing.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Learner Centered Spaces podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning, sponsored by Mastery Portfolio. And I'm one of your hosts, Star Saxton. I'm another host, Emma Chapeta. And I am Crystal Frommert. In each episode, we will bring you engaging conversations with a wide variety of educators, both in and out of the classroom.
Purpose and Audience
00:00:29
Speaker
This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces for their students, schools, and districts, or education at large. So get ready to be inspired as we dive right into the conversation with today's guests.
Guest Introduction: Laura Robb
00:00:53
Speaker
On today's episode of Learner-Centered Spaces, we are so excited to have author and educator, Laura Robb. Her latest book is Increase Reading Volume, put out by NCTE in 2022. Robb received NCTE's Richard Howell Award for Excellence in Middle School Teaching. With more than 40 years of teaching experience, Robb has written extensively on reading and writing.
00:01:22
Speaker
We are so excited to hear what she has to say on our next episode. Enjoy.
Laura Robb's Educational Journey
00:01:29
Speaker
Hi, Laura. We're so happy for you to be with us if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:01:36
Speaker
I sure will. I've been in education for more than 50 years. And actually, I never got an education degree until I was teaching for about 15 years. I was an English major. But I learned most about teaching from my students. They were my first teachers, and they continue to be my best teachers.
00:02:01
Speaker
I've taught actively grades 4 through 8 and coached grades K through 10.
00:02:11
Speaker
over the years and I've spoken at conferences all over the United States and in Canada. But in my heart I'm a teacher and I still go back every year and work with students. For the last two years I've been training a teacher who was my student many years ago. She invited me to be her mentor coach and I'm working with seventh graders
00:02:41
Speaker
which I love. Thank you so much for telling us about yourself and I love what you said about students being our greatest teachers. It sounds like you really live by that student-centered, learner-centered mentality. So I'd love for you to just tell us what a learner-centered space looks like, feels like, sounds like to you.
Defining Learner-Centered Spaces
00:03:04
Speaker
Okay, well, for me, a learner-centered space means that I, as the teacher, include my students in many decisions, such as seating arrangements, organizing groups that they're going to work in for a few days or maybe for two or three weeks.
00:03:30
Speaker
deciding on topics that interest them. I do a lot of expert studies and I have in the past, we now call that passion projects and genius hour, but I find that I can integrate everything, every standard of learning in the state of Virginia into an expert project
00:03:53
Speaker
So students are reading, writing, researching, interviewing on a subject they really, really care about and a subject that sustains their interest. Negotiation is at the heart for me of student-centered work. I see myself as one of
00:04:19
Speaker
One of the class leaders being the teacher, but also more of a facilitator, and we negotiate expectations, we negotiate due dates.
00:04:33
Speaker
The children are in charge of their learning, which builds their sense of agency, which builds their ability to make decisions and to be responsible. If the teacher does all the work,
00:04:53
Speaker
The students are very passive. They don't invest or engage in the learning. So for me, a student-centered class is exciting and a great deal of learning takes place.
00:05:09
Speaker
I so appreciate what you said about negotiation with the students and how that's sort of at the center. And I also really appreciated how you said that your expert projects can kind of cover learning standards at the same time.
Importance of Passion in Learning
00:05:24
Speaker
Cause I think that that's what a lot of teachers struggle with is seeing that they can still turn over control to the students and address all of the learning targets that they need to for their curriculum. So thank you so much for that.
00:05:38
Speaker
Well, you know, Star, I always think of myself, even as a writer, and I know you can relate to this because you're a writer too. When I'm working on a book or I'm working on a blog, I have to feel passionate about it. I have to feel that it's extremely important to me for me to invest the time and energy it takes to create a book or a good blog.
00:06:07
Speaker
And it's the same for the students. The more they are passionate about a topic, the more they want to study that topic, the harder they'll work, the more time they'll invest, and the more willing they are to revise and take a look at their work and see how they can improve it.
00:06:32
Speaker
I totally agree with that, Laura. When I was in the classroom, as a writer, I felt, first of all, it gave me some street cred with the kids as a writing teacher saying to them, writing is hard, and it's easier when you're passionate about the subject matter that you're working on. And that piece that you just said that you really want to feel passionately about, whatever you're writing about, I find it much more challenging
00:07:01
Speaker
to write anything good when it's something I'm told to write. And I think that thinking about that as a writing teacher, too, always being open to different ways we allow students to approach what they're writing is
00:07:18
Speaker
so important, especially if we don't want them to ever have that feeling like I'm just not a writer and I'm not good at this. We want them all to feel like they have the capacity to say what they need to say in their own voice in a meaningful way. And I really appreciate your commitment to putting kids in that place as well.
00:07:41
Speaker
Absolutely. And it's the same for reading. The idea of choice. And the right to abandon a book. It doesn't interest you. I remember when I was in school, I had to finish a book, even though I couldn't stand it.
00:07:57
Speaker
And I was lucky that the first time that happened to me, I was already a very committed reader. And I was angry, but it didn't stop me from reading what I loved, in addition to having to slog through a book that I really didn't like.
00:08:17
Speaker
Hi Laura, this is Crystal here.
Role of Formative Assessment in Learning
00:08:19
Speaker
I'm wondering, you know, we have a lot of teachers who listen to the show and they might be wondering with all of this choice and grouping and project based, how do you recommend a teacher assess the students and what they know and how they're meeting the standards?
00:08:36
Speaker
OK, I'm a big believer in formative assessment because the goal of formative assessment is students learning to support it, to improve it, to nurture it. And so for me, formative assessment includes my observations of children at work.
00:09:01
Speaker
All my students in Reading Writing Workshop keep a reader's notebook and a writer's notebook. And so those notebooks are like gold mines to me because if I read a few pages from each student every two or three weeks, I learn a lot about their ability to respond, to use evidence, to organize their ideas. So the talking, observe,
00:09:30
Speaker
students do, I listen to, I read their writing, I watch them during many lessons, and I make quick notes when I have a minute about who asked questions that concerned me, that perhaps I needed to hear a little bit more from that student who didn't talk at all over two or three days.
00:09:54
Speaker
In addition to my observations and my reading of the student's work for me, formative assessment also includes student self-evaluation. And so I have developed with my students forms for self-evaluating a student-led discussion, for self-evaluating their notebook writing, for self-evaluating
00:10:20
Speaker
the amount of reading that they're doing and enjoying. So it's a give and take between the two of us. And every two or three weeks, I stop, I pause, and I review my formative assessments. And I'm looking for students who require support and students who can continue to work on their own. For those who require support,
00:10:50
Speaker
Formative assessment is a gem because you are catching them when maybe they're slightly confused instead of letting it go to a unit test when a small confusion can become a major obstacle. And so what I do as a teacher, and this is hard for teachers, is I will take a pause in my curriculum
00:11:18
Speaker
And I will decide which students need one-on-one from me, or are there students that can work together as a group of four to six with me? Maybe all of these students are having trouble inferring or drawing conclusions. While I take that pause, it's the best investment a teacher can make.
00:11:46
Speaker
The groups are temporary. They end when the children meet the goal that both of you have set. And then they have the strength, the learning strength, the capacity to move on and be successful because I have taken the time with them
00:12:09
Speaker
to support them. The students who don't need support at the point I'm doing, looking at a range of formative assessments, they do independent reading. To me, that is the most important thing students do.
00:12:26
Speaker
So the more independent reading they
Teaching Children, Not Content
00:12:29
Speaker
get time for, the better it is. So what you'll find in my classes is that every two or three, and teachers I coach, every two or three weeks we take a pause to support children. And let me tell you, if there's a child that shows me the first week that they need support, I'm not going to wait two or three weeks. I'm going to address it immediately in a one-on-one conference.
00:12:58
Speaker
Well, thank you for sharing that. And I know that you and Star both work with language arts and writing. And then Emma and myself, we work with math. And I hear a lot of what you're saying in the writing classroom with working with small groups and the independent reading. A lot of that does transfer over to the math classroom, too. Because I completely agree with you that we want to catch those small misconceptions and the errors before they turn into
00:13:28
Speaker
you know, these huge beasts of problems. We have a unit test. Yeah. So I think what you're saying is definitely transferable to across all disciplines. So thank you so much for sharing that. It is. The biggest problem I have with teachers is taking that pause. It could be a one day or it could be a two or three day pause.
00:13:51
Speaker
But what they begin to see is that once they unravel the confusions and the student can successfully do complete the task,
00:14:05
Speaker
then they can move, the movement forward is smoother and probably a little faster. So, but in a student centered class, we're not covering curriculum, we're teaching children and we're teaching the children in front of us. And at that point in time, what their needs are need to be addressed.
00:14:30
Speaker
I love that you just mentioned that, Laura. This is Star again, that we're teaching children not content. And I think it shows that you are a middle school teacher because I think elementary and middle school teachers really understand you're teaching a whole child. And I won't say the concern, but the worry at high school is that there's so much content that needs to get taught. And often, at the expense of leaving kids behind,
00:15:01
Speaker
which obviously we know doesn't work, but it doesn't. And that's the next area that needs a lot of good, hard luck. And it's hard, but I'm looking for a school that would ask me to help them a high school change, make some significant change.
Connecting Core and Contemporary Books
00:15:24
Speaker
And in my new book, Increased Reading Volume, I even show, I call it the core collection, that if you have to teach Romeo and Juliet or of Mice and Man, then you know, think of all the themes in those books and find contemporary books
00:15:41
Speaker
that have similar themes and have the students read widely. They can read the core book, but they could also read three to four other books that are contemporary that are relevant to their lives and make connections to the core book. There are so many ways to address this issue of only everyone doing one thing at a time.
00:16:04
Speaker
We don't recognize the capacity of children, even little children in kindergarten and first grade, to do more than we ask them of, as long as we're tapping into their voice, giving them choices, and making sure that they enjoy what they're doing.
00:16:27
Speaker
I couldn't agree with you more. And you kind of preemptively got to where our next question was going to go in terms of advice or tips for teachers who, educators who want to create more learner centered spaces. And I think the idea of giving that choice specifically over what they're reading and how, you know, how they're doing things like you suggested earlier.
00:16:50
Speaker
are definitely important to repeat so many times. But is there specific advice for helping to build those learner-centered spaces that you'd like to share? Yes.
Transitioning to Learner-Centered Teaching
00:17:02
Speaker
If I'm working with a teacher-centered person that is using worksheets and runs the class with an iron fist, I always start with independent reading.
00:17:16
Speaker
And I encourage them to build a classroom library or frequently go to the school library and teach children how to find a good fit book. Independent reading should be 99 to 100% accuracy. So it should be fun.
00:17:34
Speaker
And it should be on topics that the child is interested in. When they see that children are using that time well, that's a first step. And then I move them into formative assessments. And I think that's key. Without formative assessment, you don't know
00:18:02
Speaker
who gets it and who needs some extra help and it varies and changes. I find that I have a mix of students from all instructional levels when I'm looking at my formative assessments because I might have a very able student reader who is having difficulty drawing conclusions
00:18:24
Speaker
who needs to work with a group that we're discussing that in depth and giving them extra time to practice and experience success. So the second thing I would move into is formative assessments, learning to observe your students, reading their work,
00:18:44
Speaker
to learn what, and I always, when I'm looking at a student's work, I have two columns. What can they do well? What areas, if any, do I think they need support? And the first time I organize groups or one-on-ones, I'm telling the kids that
00:19:07
Speaker
These are things that I noticed that if we work on them now, their journey will be much smoother because they will have conquered something that seemed challenging and no longer will be challenging with extra practice.
00:19:28
Speaker
And from there, the teacher needs to then learn to trust the children. I find that a lot of people that aren't student-centered have a lack of trust. And they'll say things like, oh, you have to give a test every day. Otherwise, I'll never read the book.
00:19:49
Speaker
or we have to give a lot of homework and collect it, otherwise we're never sure they're going to read or get their parents to sign that they've read at night. I find that it's a difficult challenge when I'm coaching teachers, but it's something that I work on relentlessly with them because
00:20:16
Speaker
What they need to understand is that students will work very hard if they have voice and choice, if they have a say in the running of their classroom. They're there all day. And so to take the reins and boss them around, they're not going to grow. They're not going to become responsible. They're not going to become good decision makers. And that's true of any subject.
00:20:46
Speaker
I always tell teachers that you start slow. You work on independent reading and when things are flowing and the kids are really focusing and developing stamina to concentrate for 15 to 20 minutes, then it's time to move to bringing in formative assessments.
00:21:10
Speaker
Teachers have to be in touch with their comfort level. And once they're comfortable with trying something and they feel that they understand it and it's part of their teaching process, then they move on to adding something else. Diving in and giving them too much, I have always found is a recipe for disaster.
00:21:38
Speaker
I think this is Emma again. I think that's such good advice. I think that when you're confronted with making a huge change in your classroom, it can be totally intimidating, especially if you don't know what's going to happen when you turn the trust over to your students. So thank you so much for all of your great advice.
Acknowledgment of Educators' Contributions
00:21:57
Speaker
And as we're wrapping up, my question is, do you want to shout out any people that deserve some more recognition for promoting learner sentence spaces?
00:22:08
Speaker
Well, some of the people that I have worked with are Jim Burke, who's a high school teacher who has changed the way high school is taught, which I love.
00:22:24
Speaker
Also, Linda Hoyt is a favorite of mine and Tim Rozinski with the work he's done on fluency and practice and performance has really changed and made fluency work a student-centered, joyful experience.
00:22:47
Speaker
And that's what I'm looking for. Dr. Mary Howard, who is known for her work on response to intervention and reading recovery, has always been student-centered. For her, it's all about the students.
00:23:10
Speaker
It's very gratifying and exciting to see educational leaders promoting this in schools all over the country. And I believe that it is the way to go and it's the change that's needed in education.
00:23:35
Speaker
Thank you for those shout outs. Where could our listeners find you on social media?
Resources and Social Media
00:23:40
Speaker
I know I see you on Twitter sometimes and LinkedIn, but can you share where everyone can engage with you?
00:23:48
Speaker
I have a Facebook page that they can look up. I'm pretty active on Twitter and LinkedIn. You can email me if you have a question from my website, www.lrob.com. And I'm happy to answer your questions. I'm pretty good at turning it around in 24 hours, which I think shows respect for teachers.
00:24:18
Speaker
So, and I welcome any interactions that come my way. One thing I will mention is to give a shout out is I have an article on formative assessment and flexible grouping, which is temporary grouping, in the new issue of the NCTE chronicle. And it should have been out in March. It's late and coming out.
00:24:45
Speaker
but it should be out by the end of this month, I'm hoping. And teachers might find that helpful as they make their journey from teacher-centered to student-centered.
00:24:57
Speaker
I know our listeners are very much going to enjoy listening to what you're doing in your classroom. And it's an inspiration, honestly, to all educators of all disciplines and all subjects and really all grade levels. So thank you so much for your time today. Well, and thank you for all the good work you do, Starr, getting messages out to teachers and supporting them. It's a very important part of change.
00:25:26
Speaker
And it was an honor to be on your podcast. Thank you. Thanks so much, Laura. Our team, Emma and Crystal are also authors now too. So it's pretty exciting to work with movers and shakers all the time. And I just, something I find very inspiring about you is like,
00:25:46
Speaker
most people when they're like you're you're still going you've been working for more than 50 years in education you're still vital you're still making changes you're still comfortable you know just doing the hard work and i'm i'm very inspired and moved by that um thank you i i love teaching and i love being around children and uh
00:26:10
Speaker
I'm not going to give it up unless I have to. And I'm fortunate that I have places that I can go work in, which is great. Thank you, Starley. We're a very small
00:26:28
Speaker
But I think precious community that have such a strong common goal. And that's what I believe is going to inch its way into creating change in all subjects. Yeah, I'm with you on that. OK, thank you. Thanks. Thank you.
Closing and Call for Feedback
00:27:01
Speaker
Thank you for learning with us today. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. If you'd like any additional information from the show, check out the show notes. Learn more about Mastery Portfolio and how we support schools at masteryportfolio.com. You can follow us on Twitter at masteryforall and on LinkedIn on our Mastery Portfolio page.
00:27:23
Speaker
We'd love for you to engage with us. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or know someone who would be an inspiring guest, please fill out the survey found in the show notes. And we'd love your feedback. Please write a review on your favorite podcasting app.