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109: On Constructionism, Makerspaces, & Music Ed w/ Burton Hable
19 Plays3 years ago
I am joined today by Burton Hable. Burton Hable is a music educator, currently living in Central Virginia. He is a doctoral student in Boston University’s Music Education program, and his research interests lie in how people construct music knowledge in the context of a makerspace. He also serves as the Operations and Building Manager for the Charlottesville Band. Prior to moving to Virginia in the summer of 2018, he taught instrumental music in Iowa for eight years. I’ve also known Burton for 20 years now, as we were high school classmates and played trombone in the same high school band together, and both of us came back years later to teach in the same district we graduated from. In so many ways, Burton and I share a similar journey in arriving at progressive education, and I am grateful to call him a friend and a learning partner for these many years.
As the title mentions, this episode focuses on the niche pedagogy of “constructionism” largely attributed to one man, Seymour Papert, who published his first book, Mindstorms: Children, Computers, and Powerful Ideas, back in 1980. It’s both fascinating and frustrating that despite 4 decades of research supporting the powerful impact on cognition and the opportunity for collaboration inherent in these ideas, the philosophy and framework of constructionism and similarly modeled “makerspaces” are still only deployed in limited pockets on the fringes of the standard model of school. This conversation gets at the same central premise as so many others on this podcast, that is our limited imagination about “what works” in schools as they are currently structured, and “what works to do what” within music education in particular. What does it mean to be musically literate? To be a musician? Burton Hable imagines the role of makerspaces supported by constructionist pedagogy in music ed as a way to expand and enrich the standard model for students, with the goal of creating a broader collaborative experience for students to engage with all aspects - creating, performing, responding, and connecting - of what it means to be musical.
Connect with Burton @ burtonhable.com or on Twitter @burtonhable
GUESTS
Burton Hable, music educator & Operations and Building Manager for the Charlottesville Band
RESOURCES
- Mindstorms: Children, Computers, and Powerful Ideas by Seymour Papert (open access)
- Review: The Case for Constructivist Classrooms by Nick Covington
Recommended
Transcript
Reimagining Music Education
00:00:00
Speaker
man, wouldn't it be cool if your first year experience in band, instead of being the one night
00:00:07
Speaker
that you get to try all of the instruments and then pick if you had like, this is a logistical nightmare, but it's still just fascinating.
00:00:14
Speaker
If you had six weeks on flute and then six weeks on clarinet, this is all an arbitrary amount of time, right?
00:00:21
Speaker
And then at the end of the year, after you've developed these, there's a ton of musical skills that apply across everything, right?
00:00:28
Speaker
And then you've got some very specific stuff sprinkled in on top, and then you get to make an informed decision about
00:00:35
Speaker
hey, I want to play, you know, trombone.
00:00:38
Speaker
That was the one I liked the most.
00:00:40
Speaker
I think that in terms of skill development as it currently exists from beginner to the end of their high school career, that you wouldn't see a dip.
00:00:49
Speaker
You know, if anything, it would stay the same.
00:00:52
Speaker
I would be willing to bet that you would see that that second and third year of band for them would be far above where it used to be because they have a different
00:01:03
Speaker
but probably stronger foundation as they get into it.
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:01:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to episode 109 of our podcast at the Human Restoration Project.
00:01:13
Speaker
My name is Nick Covington and I'm a social studies teacher from Ankeny, Iowa.
00:01:17
Speaker
Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this is brought to you by our supporters, three of whom are Ephraim Hussain, Jennifer Mann, and Marie Becker.
00:01:24
Speaker
Thank you all for your ongoing support.
00:01:27
Speaker
You can learn more about the Human Restoration Project on our website, humanrestorationproject.org, or find us on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook.
00:01:38
Speaker
I am joined today by Burton Hobley.
00:01:41
Speaker
Burton Hobley is a music educator currently living in Central Virginia.
00:01:45
Speaker
He is a doctoral student in Boston University's Music Education Program, and his research interests lie in how people construct music knowledge in the context of a makerspace.
00:01:56
Speaker
He also serves as the operations and building manager for the Charlottesville Band.
00:02:00
Speaker
Prior to moving to Virginia in the summer of 2018, he taught instrumental music in Iowa for eight years.
00:02:06
Speaker
I've also known Burton for 20 years now as we were high school classmates and played trombone in the same high school band together.
00:02:13
Speaker
Both of us later came back to teach in the same district that we graduated from.
00:02:18
Speaker
In so many ways, Burton and I share a similar journey in arriving at progressive education.
00:02:23
Speaker
and I'm grateful to call him a friend and a learning partner for these many years.
Constructionism in Education
00:02:28
Speaker
As the title mentions, this episode focuses on the niche pedagogy of constructionism, largely attributed to one man, Seymour Papert, who published his first book, Mindstorms, Children, Computers, and Powerful Ideas, back in 1980.
00:02:43
Speaker
It's both fascinating and frustrating that despite four decades of research supporting the powerful impact on cognition,
00:02:49
Speaker
and the opportunity for collaboration inherent in these ideas, the philosophy and framework of constructionism and similarly modeled makerspaces are still only deployed in limited pockets on the fringes of the standard model of school.
00:03:05
Speaker
This conversation gets at the same central premise as so many others on this podcast.
00:03:10
Speaker
That is, our limited imagination about what works in schools as they are currently structured and what works to do what within music education in particular.
00:03:20
Speaker
What does it mean to be musically literate?
00:03:22
Speaker
To be a musician?
00:03:24
Speaker
Burton Hobley imagines the role of makerspaces supported by constructionist pedagogy in music ed as a way to expand and enrich the standard model for students, with the goal of creating a broader, collaborative experience for students to engage with all aspects, creating, performing, responding, and connecting to what it means to be musical.
00:03:44
Speaker
Enjoy.
00:03:53
Speaker
Burton, how you doing?
00:03:54
Speaker
I'm well, Nick.
00:03:55
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How are you?
00:03:56
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I am doing great.
00:03:57
Speaker
So it's awesome to get to talk to you.
00:03:59
Speaker
So why don't we just start with you?
00:04:00
Speaker
You know, tell us about yourself, your experiences and interests in
Burton Hobley's Background
00:04:04
Speaker
education.
00:04:04
Speaker
What values do you center in your work with students in schools as a music educator?
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, you touched on some of them already.
00:04:13
Speaker
I...
00:04:15
Speaker
taught middle school and high school band in Iowa for eight years, and then moved to Virginia when my wife took a position at the University of Virginia as a professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering.
00:04:27
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I have a bachelor of music ed from Iowa State, a master of music ed from Vanderkoek College of Music in Chicago, Illinois.
00:04:35
Speaker
And like you said, I'm finishing up my doctorate of musical arts.
00:04:39
Speaker
I guess I don't get to be a PhD.
00:04:40
Speaker
DMA in music education.
00:04:43
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from Boston University.
00:04:45
Speaker
When we, I always say we, because it was a team of teachers, but when I was teaching in Ankeny, we had a team of six teachers that delivered instruction for band sixth through twelfth grade.
00:04:57
Speaker
And the really cool thing was our schedule was built so that none of us were rehearsing at the same time.
00:05:03
Speaker
So all six of us could be in every rehearsal every day, either pushing into the
00:05:08
Speaker
to help what was going on in the everyday rehearsal or to pull students out for some individualized or small group instruction.
00:05:17
Speaker
As a music educator, I really strive to help students know how to understand and communicate emotion through the music that they're listening to or that they're making.
00:05:30
Speaker
And I
00:05:30
Speaker
Really, like, I think that the best way to do that is to try and approach them using music that they enjoy, and then using that as a gateway to try and help them broaden their musical horizons, whether it's more into, I guess, the traditional canon of like what we would do in band, or into other things beyond what they're interested in.
Innovative Student Projects in Ankeny
00:05:52
Speaker
And one of the ways that we did that in Ankeny was we had this ensemble project where at the end of the year,
00:06:00
Speaker
Things are winding down.
00:06:01
Speaker
There's no other concerts or performances that we're getting ready for.
00:06:05
Speaker
What are we going to do with our students?
00:06:07
Speaker
And we let them divide themselves up into like groups of two to six people.
00:06:12
Speaker
And then they picked whatever music they were going to play.
00:06:15
Speaker
The only thing that we did as teachers was, hey, I'll help you transpose that for your instrument.
00:06:21
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Maybe tell you like, oh, we might want to tweak that a little bit to make it a little bit more approachable.
00:06:26
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But beyond that, they were choosing the music.
00:06:28
Speaker
They were rehearsing the music.
00:06:30
Speaker
And then that last week that we had together, they were performing it for each other.
00:06:34
Speaker
And so we had all kinds of Disney medleys.
00:06:37
Speaker
My last year in Ankeny, there was a whole bunch of panic at the disco.
00:06:40
Speaker
It was some really cool, cool stuff.
00:06:43
Speaker
And it's here, celebrate everything that you know how to do, but then do it in a way that's not teacher prescribed or kind of in the traditional vein of how we do things.
00:06:55
Speaker
And to have such an authentic audience for that performance as well, which is, you know, for each other, you know, as in the form of this celebration.
00:07:02
Speaker
I mean, I can't imagine a better audience than kind of outside of that traditional, I don't know, like a concert band environment.
00:07:10
Speaker
Here's one where you kind of, you get to flex those muscles a little bit, you know?
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:07:16
Speaker
A lot of the conversations that we've had for years now, going way back, have revolved around this guy, Seymour Papert.
Deep Dive into Constructionism
00:07:25
Speaker
Am I pronouncing his name right, by the way?
00:07:27
Speaker
No, and it took me like two years to figure out, find somebody to pronounce it for me.
00:07:31
Speaker
It's Papert.
00:07:33
Speaker
Papert.
00:07:33
Speaker
Okay.
00:07:34
Speaker
I just kind of think of paper and then paper.
00:07:36
Speaker
Okay.
00:07:37
Speaker
Seymour Papert.
00:07:38
Speaker
Well, that's great.
00:07:39
Speaker
See, I'm learning things too.
00:07:42
Speaker
And I'm not sure if you had actually exposed me to his ideas of constructionism in particular.
00:07:50
Speaker
And so I think it bears in mind that constructivism, which is kind of a popular or ubiquitous idea inside of progressive education, maybe
00:07:58
Speaker
I don't know, trace back to like John Dewey, right?
00:08:00
Speaker
But constructionism as a separate idea that's sort of related, I suppose.
00:08:06
Speaker
So I don't know.
00:08:07
Speaker
Give us the update here.
00:08:08
Speaker
Who was Papert?
00:08:09
Speaker
What's going on in constructionism?
00:08:11
Speaker
And what's your interest in exploring that idea in your own work?
00:08:15
Speaker
I'm going to work kind of backwards with what you were saying there because it'll get us into it in the same way that I got into it.
00:08:22
Speaker
I am really interested in makerspaces and not just...
00:08:28
Speaker
Because I think that they could be a non-traditional avenue for students to get into music education that aren't in band, orchestra, or choir, or just because I find them fascinating on my own.
00:08:41
Speaker
And for listeners that aren't familiar with what a makerspace is and its broadest idea, it's a place that has tools and technologies for people to make things.
00:08:51
Speaker
And kind of the most common things that you'll see are 3D printers, laser cutting, there might be some woodworking or metalworking, some textile work maybe, or circuitry, definitely some kind of computer programming maybe.
00:09:09
Speaker
just lots of different things for you to make really whatever you are interested in.
00:09:14
Speaker
And the theory of learning that kind of backs that up is this Papert's theory of constructionism.
00:09:21
Speaker
And constructionism, Papert was a student of Piaget's.
00:09:24
Speaker
So like the constructivist theory that we construct our own knowledge, that there's not like one truth out there waiting to be discovered, but that we
00:09:35
Speaker
kind of construct knowledge through our experiences of the world.
00:09:39
Speaker
Piaget, after developing his stage theory of learning that he was interested in, what that looks like in practice, and Papert was a mathematician that then, hey, like, help me figure out some of the specifics about how we develop math knowledge.
00:09:53
Speaker
So Papert, after working with Piaget, began to develop this theory that that process of constructing knowledge best happens when I have a tangible artifact that
00:10:04
Speaker
that represents that knowledge.
00:10:06
Speaker
And it could be something that I create in the physical world.
00:10:09
Speaker
It could be something that I create digitally.
00:10:13
Speaker
Papert called it an object to think with.
00:10:15
Speaker
That's something I can tangibly manipulate that represents my knowledge.
00:10:20
Speaker
This preceded makerspaces, but it absolutely aligns with the work that's happening in them because you're making something.
00:10:27
Speaker
And that making represents your learning about how to use different tools or
00:10:33
Speaker
an example of a project that I've seen out of a, out of a maker spaces is, is I wanted to make my own weather balloon.
00:10:39
Speaker
Well, there's a whole lot of physics knowledge that has to go into that.
00:10:42
Speaker
There's a whole lot of some of the basic science of, of weather and being able to take measurement and use those measurements to make predictions.
00:10:50
Speaker
There's a whole bunch of knowledge that then gets represented in this artifact that you create in the maker space.
00:10:56
Speaker
And so Papert, this was in the early 1980s that,
00:10:59
Speaker
He had a group at MIT known as the Epistemology and Learning Group, and they developed a programming language called Logo.
00:11:10
Speaker
And it was meant to be this easier way of programming.
00:11:15
Speaker
And we would use it to program things like they had these, at first they were digital and then they became physical turtles.
00:11:22
Speaker
And you could use these turtles to draw things first on the computer screen and then later like
00:11:28
Speaker
in real life.
00:11:29
Speaker
And they were used to teach students geometry, either through the act of programming the turtle or through helping them, well, hey, can you make the turtle draw this?
00:11:41
Speaker
Make the turtle do this design.
00:11:44
Speaker
So they published several different
00:11:46
Speaker
papers and then later books on, here's the different things that we were doing with programming.
00:11:50
Speaker
Here's the different things that kids were learning by constructing these artifacts, the drawings that the turtles were producing or the programs that they were writing to help the turtles produce that.
00:12:01
Speaker
As this has evolved,
00:12:03
Speaker
It has become stuff that we see in definitely in makerspaces, but a whole lot in project-based learning, whether or not you're thinking about the specifics of your students constructing an artifact.
00:12:18
Speaker
But the mere fact that we're producing something that is a representation of our knowledge finds its roots deep in Papert's constructionism.
00:12:27
Speaker
It's so interesting how constructionism kind of is this huge sphere that, you know, then we find kind of the applications of that in the physical maker spaces or in the computer spaces that he had originally written about.
00:12:40
Speaker
One kind of takeaway from my understanding of that constructionist way of thinking too is that you're representing your knowledge in the physical space actually then influences your cognitive models
Music and Physical Creation
00:12:51
Speaker
too.
00:12:51
Speaker
So it works to both put your cognitive model into reality and then in the creation or in the construction of it, that too then influences your cognition.
00:13:02
Speaker
And so it just kind of is this, I don't know, this dialogue or this like dialectic between you and like the physical or the linguistic world if you're working with, say, a programming language or that 3D printer.
00:13:15
Speaker
Now,
00:13:15
Speaker
So we already kind of talked about maker spaces, which I think have been something that have popped up.
00:13:21
Speaker
I don't want to call those things a fad necessarily, although I think they kind of can tend toward faddishness, which, you know, I think all trends in education can tend towards faddishness.
00:13:30
Speaker
where you might just have a 3D printer in a particular space, but there's not really a pedagogy aligned with like how to use this or like how do we function in this space together?
00:13:40
Speaker
So it can kind of be half implemented.
00:13:42
Speaker
But I want to know then, like you're talking about this kind of makerspace pedagogy in music.
00:13:50
Speaker
So how do you construct those constructionist models?
00:13:54
Speaker
Like what, how in the world, right?
00:13:56
Speaker
What exists out there in the world already that you're finding that you can connect to?
00:14:00
Speaker
What is new that you're innovating on or having to, you know, what hurdles are you having to overcome to get to the place that you want to be with this idea?
00:14:09
Speaker
There exist already some constructionist and definitely constructivist, but then also constructionist educators and scholars in music.
00:14:20
Speaker
One example is,
00:14:22
Speaker
is, I'm gonna forget his first name, his last name Shively.
00:14:25
Speaker
His dissertation was on developing a constructionist framework for teaching beginning band.
00:14:33
Speaker
And he unpacked a whole bunch of different constructivist and constructionist literatures to say, because there's a lot of different ways that people have applied Piaget's theories and Papert's theories and Vygotsky's sociocultural theories.
00:14:49
Speaker
And picking the pieces that how would this work best in a beginning band, right?
00:14:54
Speaker
And I've been told that when he would go out to rehearsals, you know, come and come and do an honor band or come work with with my group.
00:15:02
Speaker
One of the first questions that he would do when he'd get up on the podium would ask.
00:15:06
Speaker
Well, how do you think we should start?
00:15:08
Speaker
What do you think we should do?
00:15:10
Speaker
And that has connotations of discovery-based learning.
00:15:15
Speaker
And Papert would agree that constructionism has pieces of discovery-based learning, but similar to the way many progressive educators argue in favor of, it's not just...
00:15:27
Speaker
well, let's just see what happens kind of a thing that there's an intentionality along with it.
00:15:34
Speaker
For Shively, it was helping students discover how to interact with their instrument rather than in a prescribed way, like how does your trumpet work?
00:15:45
Speaker
How does your trombone work for you to make the different sounds?
00:15:49
Speaker
And your discovering is a
00:15:51
Speaker
as a means of here's my goal, I want to produce this on my instrument.
00:15:56
Speaker
How can I construct the ability to be able to do that?
00:16:00
Speaker
And there's some direct instruction that's necessary, how to put the instrument together and not hurt yourself, right?
00:16:07
Speaker
How to do some very basic tone production kinds of things.
00:16:11
Speaker
But then beyond that, there's so much that students can discover.
00:16:14
Speaker
There's other scholars like Ruth Dubrow from Boston University did a similar thing in middle school chorus.
00:16:22
Speaker
And then like Jackie Wiggins is like the epitome of a constructivist approach to music education.
00:16:32
Speaker
She wrote a book called Teaching for Musical Understanding.
00:16:34
Speaker
And she talks...
00:16:36
Speaker
at great length about how do we develop a constructivist or constructionist mindset towards teaching music, and then how do we explore it?
00:16:46
Speaker
And you could make the argument that the artifact that you're producing in a band orchestra or choir rehearsal or performance is a musical artifact that is a representation of
00:16:57
Speaker
of your understanding of music.
00:17:00
Speaker
But I'm more interested in being able to do that outside of those paradigms.
00:17:06
Speaker
We know that the most recent research tells us about 20% of a high school population takes band, orchestra, or choir at some point in their four years
Expanding Music Education Through Makerspaces
00:17:16
Speaker
in high school.
00:17:16
Speaker
There's so many students then that music is certainly a part of their lives that they're just not involved in it in some way formally.
00:17:26
Speaker
In their in their high school process.
00:17:28
Speaker
And so how can we reach those other 80% of students and I think that makerspaces is makerspaces are one way we could.
00:17:39
Speaker
And the way that I've seen that is, you could call it a makerspace high school here in Albemarle County.
00:17:47
Speaker
that they originally started as a way for seniors to kind of do a capstone project.
00:17:53
Speaker
They would attend this makerspace school once every other day.
00:17:57
Speaker
And the other day they're at their comprehensive high school taking their traditional courses.
00:18:02
Speaker
And one of these capstone projects that emerged was a student said, you know, I am self-taught on guitar.
00:18:07
Speaker
I would love to make my own.
00:18:09
Speaker
And his first attempt at it was to make an acoustical guitar and realize that that was a whole lot more complicated than he was going to be able to accomplish in his senior year.
00:18:19
Speaker
And so he transitioned to making electric guitars and electric basses.
00:18:23
Speaker
And there's so much that he learned in woodworking and in some science fields in terms of the
00:18:30
Speaker
getting the different components onto the guitar and then wired the correct way and use the correct way.
00:18:35
Speaker
But there's so much about music that he learned too, because it was, this isn't sounding the way I want it to.
00:18:41
Speaker
What do I need to tweak to get that sound that I want?
00:18:44
Speaker
And then obviously once you've made it, well, you have to perform with it, right?
00:18:49
Speaker
And so here this, this student had this, several artifacts of his music learning and his science learning.
00:18:57
Speaker
And that's a big piece of,
00:18:59
Speaker
of the makerspace learning is it's cross-curricular, it engages lots of different disciplines, and essentially the sky is the limit with the student's imagination and what they want to make.
00:19:11
Speaker
I think I covered everything there that you were trying to ask me.
00:19:16
Speaker
I think so.
00:19:17
Speaker
And I think what the appeal of less so just a maker space generally, but the kind of the pedagogy behind it, right, is that it makes that learning self-evident and you just see that iteration.
00:19:28
Speaker
And I think I've seen this student or future students who had been part of that same kind of laboratory in constructing these instruments.
00:19:36
Speaker
It really is.
00:19:37
Speaker
It's absolutely incredible, right, to just kind of see how, you
00:19:41
Speaker
I guess the spectrum of skills that students are required to enter into.
00:19:44
Speaker
You mentioned the woodworking part, but there's also the electrical wiring.
00:19:48
Speaker
And then, of course, again, with the musicality of the instrument, too, just to say, like, you know, do all the frets on the guitar work?
00:19:55
Speaker
Is it getting the right timber that you want?
00:19:57
Speaker
You know, the pickup placement has a lot to do with it as well.
00:20:00
Speaker
So there's the...
00:20:01
Speaker
the interplay and the lenses that students have to use as they're approaching that work, and then the performance piece too.
00:20:07
Speaker
So nobody in that schooling context is going to leave wondering what that student had learned in that class.
00:20:13
Speaker
You could walk out of so many classes that I've experienced and probably you and I have even taught over the years being like, wow, did I learn anything?
00:20:20
Speaker
Or did my kids learn anything?
00:20:22
Speaker
Or did I actually give them the range of opportunity to be able to express the things that they've learned in there?
00:20:29
Speaker
But with such a concrete, you know, base for performance and construction and creation, it removes all that down and just makes that thing self-evident.
00:20:37
Speaker
So I kind of wonder, because I can think back to my own band instruction, and I can think probably about a lot of musical instruction can look like the kind of rote instruction that we might see, I don't know, you know, I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush, but like,
00:20:54
Speaker
memorizing math facts or memorizing scales kind of as an equivalent thing.
00:20:58
Speaker
So I could leave a math class per se having memorized my times tables, but my ability to apply those or to create or to understand anything outside of
00:21:10
Speaker
that concrete knowledge is very limited in the same way.
00:21:14
Speaker
Maybe when I think about those musical scales, it might be the case that I could play a C scale, but like I can't, I might not be able to transfer that into some other context of either my playing or my listening or kind of other of the literacies that you need to have to be musical.
00:21:31
Speaker
musical, right?
00:21:32
Speaker
To have a musical competency.
Redefining Music Literacy
00:21:34
Speaker
So on the spectrum from that kind of rote memorization of scales, which we've had a lot of conversation about this, but to your ideal or what we imagine this constructionist or this even constructivist method of music education looks like, right?
00:21:52
Speaker
Where are we starting from?
00:21:54
Speaker
How do we get to that ideal?
00:21:56
Speaker
map that course for us here.
00:21:57
Speaker
What are the hurdles getting in between your vision for what this looks like?
00:22:03
Speaker
I don't know that I have a perfect pathway from one to the other, but... Oh, come on.
00:22:11
Speaker
Easy answers.
00:22:12
Speaker
Come on.
00:22:13
Speaker
Exactly.
00:22:14
Speaker
And I don't know that my opinions about
00:22:18
Speaker
music education are necessarily inside the norm of what you might find amongst most high school music educators, well, any music educator.
00:22:29
Speaker
But you brought up the idea of music literacy.
00:22:32
Speaker
And I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people in the United States and Western cultures for music ed would say that literacy is being able to read notated music.
00:22:44
Speaker
And I wouldn't disagree that that is a musical literacy, but I don't think that it is necessarily the be all end all.
00:22:52
Speaker
Now, I'm not necessarily advocating that we should do away with teaching students to learn how to read musical notation in any shape or form, but it doesn't have to be that.
00:23:04
Speaker
that only way.
00:23:05
Speaker
Um, so like my experience growing up in music, which was probably similar to yours was at some point in an elementary general music class, we started learning the staff and where the music staff and where, where notes appear on it.
00:23:19
Speaker
Every good boy deserves fudge or, or something to that effect.
00:23:23
Speaker
Um, and, uh, and, and rhythms as, as well.
00:23:27
Speaker
And that transferred to recorder and then later to, uh,
00:23:31
Speaker
some choice of a band instrument.
00:23:33
Speaker
And that's a fairly normal path, as I understand it, for most students.
00:23:37
Speaker
It might end up on a string instrument in an orchestra or somewhere in a choir.
00:23:43
Speaker
But like I said before, we're missing out on a lot of other students that are outside of that path.
00:23:49
Speaker
And so I'm not advocating for a replacement of the traditional path, but rather supplements to
00:23:57
Speaker
And in some places, it's already happening.
00:23:59
Speaker
There are music technology classes that, depending on the way the classroom is set up, you could argue that they're a music makerspace.
00:24:07
Speaker
At this particular makerspace high school that I was talking about before, there's a music studio.
00:24:12
Speaker
There's a place for students to record and produce, and they do their own music, their own music videos.
00:24:19
Speaker
There's instruments there, some of them designed by students, that they can play to produce.
00:24:26
Speaker
And
00:24:26
Speaker
There's also, I mean, national standards for music technology.
00:24:30
Speaker
Like, let's take you through learning how to use digital audio workstations and record in your own music and mix different loops and recordings and things like that.
00:24:43
Speaker
There's also avenues where we're trying to provide learning opportunities in music for specific cultures.
00:24:50
Speaker
There was a big movement in Iowa that was starting before I moved, and I'm fairly certain it's still continuing for mariachi music and having mariachi ensembles as part of the curriculum.
00:25:04
Speaker
One of my electives at Boston, you and I talked a lot about this, was a rock band pedagogy class.
00:25:10
Speaker
And it can be called rock band.
00:25:12
Speaker
It can be called modern band.
00:25:14
Speaker
There's lots of different avenues for it.
00:25:16
Speaker
But like learning piano, bass, guitar, drums, or even computer, like building through loops and sampling, but producing the music that you listen to on the radio all the time.
00:25:29
Speaker
The final for that course was a performance in Boston's Memorial Union.
00:25:34
Speaker
I got to play some bass on Goodbye with a Little Help from my friends.
00:25:38
Speaker
It was...
00:25:39
Speaker
Quite the learning and performing experience.
00:25:43
Speaker
But again, for music, I want us to have more options for more students, the students that we're not reaching with band, orchestra, and choir.
00:25:53
Speaker
And I think that the ways to do that are to let them explore using the music that they are interested in.
00:26:00
Speaker
And how can we help you
00:26:02
Speaker
create or recreate music like that because band, orchestra, and choir, at least the way that we're teaching them right now, don't really offer opportunities for that to happen.
00:26:14
Speaker
They certainly don't.
00:26:15
Speaker
And that, I see that in my own students now, you know, there are students that I've had come through my courses who have talked about the music that they're creating, whether it be like loops or samples or, you know, rap and hip hop and those kinds of things.
00:26:31
Speaker
I find it really interesting that the students...
00:26:33
Speaker
Those students who are usually involved in actively pursuing music in high school as kind of a career for themselves or something or wanting to get into that are not the same kind of students that I see who are maybe the most involved in like the concert bands, marching bands, and jazz bands and stuff.
00:26:52
Speaker
who aren't just creating music on the side.
00:26:54
Speaker
And I don't know if that's a function of structure or a function of time or if they would, if they could.
00:27:00
Speaker
But yeah, it doesn't seem like those are groups of kids who overlap a whole lot.
00:27:04
Speaker
And I would really hate it if kids who went through like a band program then
00:27:09
Speaker
you know, didn't ever take up music in the future or absent that kind of structure or the opportunity to perform in a structured way.
00:27:16
Speaker
So yeah, there just has to be more ways for, for tiny humans to discover sort of the, the joy of that, the inner joy of that musical world.
00:27:27
Speaker
And, and this is a conversation we've had off, off air a lot, which is just about how, like,
00:27:33
Speaker
We kind of think of discovery learning as sort of being a non-rigorous or a much-lampooned sort of idea, but when you start to play pentatonic scales or those kinds of things for kids, they feel a certain way about it, right?
00:27:44
Speaker
You have an emotional attachment to the way the timber of a certain instrument, right?
00:27:50
Speaker
Or
00:27:51
Speaker
the way that the dynamics of a piece work.
00:27:53
Speaker
I mean, you can feel those things before you have a musical language to describe them.
00:27:57
Speaker
So are the maker spaces the way that you feel?
00:27:59
Speaker
Are the ways to reach that?
00:28:02
Speaker
Or is it more through, I don't know, like grabbing those kids and sitting down with them and saying, like, you got to learn...
00:28:08
Speaker
You know, you're you got to learn your majors and minors and your modes and everything else.
00:28:13
Speaker
I don't know.
00:28:13
Speaker
I'm not trying to get you to to play into a false dichotomy here, but I'm seeing the dichotomy, right?
00:28:18
Speaker
Like seeing kids who drop out of music or kids who pick it up and then never let it go.
00:28:23
Speaker
And it goes on to influence the rest of their life.
00:28:27
Speaker
Yeah, and I don't know that, again, that a makerspace is a be-all, end-all, but if we take that broad definition of a makerspace, that it's a place where the tools and technologies exist for you to make things, and if we create opportunities for students to make music, and not even necessarily make music, the
00:28:50
Speaker
putting aside the baggage of discussing national standards for a second.
00:28:55
Speaker
And just the national standards for music are the same for national standards in arts education, that we create, that we perform, present music,
00:29:06
Speaker
or just depending on the field of art, right?
00:29:09
Speaker
Like produce whatever, that we respond to art around us,
Opportunities Beyond Traditional Music Programs
00:29:17
Speaker
right?
00:29:17
Speaker
And if we're creating opportunities for students to do those things
00:29:21
Speaker
with music.
00:29:22
Speaker
They're creating music, they're performing or producing music, they're responding to music around them.
00:29:29
Speaker
I guess you could say a makerspace if it's providing the opportunities to do that are the answer, but it is a way of giving students opportunities to interact with music that aren't choosing, hopefully, aren't choosing to interact with it in the ways that we're already providing.
00:29:48
Speaker
A perfect example is, and shout out to our mutual friend, Tom Hines at Centennial High School in Ankeny.
00:29:56
Speaker
Tom has worked to get some grant money going to develop essentially a music studio in his media center.
00:30:04
Speaker
There's a room off to the side there where there's a couple IMAX, some recording equipment, piano, guitar, bass, drums, and music.
00:30:15
Speaker
He had even found a random trombone at some point that I had nothing to do with that.
00:30:19
Speaker
But then kids can sign up at any time to go into the media center and make some music.
00:30:25
Speaker
And it's, is it a music maker space?
00:30:28
Speaker
You could argue, yeah.
00:30:30
Speaker
I mean, there's not a set curriculum for it and there doesn't need to be.
00:30:34
Speaker
Kids can come in and make and explore music.
00:30:37
Speaker
It's a really neat idea that Tom had.
00:30:41
Speaker
And I love the idea, too, of sort of having like a neutral ground for those kids who aren't in the structured band activities for whatever reason, you know, whether it's time constraints or financial constraints or, you know, they didn't get into it in fifth grade, you know, and so then they missed the window for it or something, whatever.
00:31:01
Speaker
Right.
00:31:02
Speaker
But I love the idea of maybe like a
00:31:04
Speaker
It's a collaboration space for those students who have the extracurricular interest but don't have the musical background.
00:31:12
Speaker
And then the kids who have the formal education in there but don't have the ability to collaborate or don't have the tools at home to collaborate other than writing trombone music and playing it in their bedroom.
00:31:26
Speaker
I think the more that we can kind of get those spaces and tear down, not tear down, that seems awfully violent, but maybe like deconstruct those silos and just really get kids into the work of making music together.
00:31:40
Speaker
And yeah, that involves collaboration, creation.
00:31:44
Speaker
There's a performance.
00:31:45
Speaker
There's the recording and editing component.
00:31:47
Speaker
And then of course, you know, the performance.
00:31:48
Speaker
Like I have always loved students who have...
00:31:53
Speaker
who have been those musical creators, right?
00:31:56
Speaker
Be they the editors or the rap artists, R&B loopers and stuff.
00:32:00
Speaker
They are always very willing to like share with me like their Spotify or their SoundCloud and everything else.
00:32:07
Speaker
And I love to participate in that.
00:32:09
Speaker
And I feel like I don't get the same...
00:32:12
Speaker
you know, thing through the students who are more in those structured programs because they only happen at certain times.
00:32:17
Speaker
So I don't know, maybe I'm just projecting a little bit of myself in that, but it'd be a fascinating thing to be able to bring those groups together and give them a structured time during the day that they could collaborate and create those projects.
00:32:30
Speaker
I want to jump on something you said there.
00:32:31
Speaker
You keep mentioning collaboration, and it's a huge piece of constructionism.
00:32:37
Speaker
It's a huge piece of makerspaces.
00:32:41
Speaker
One of the things that Papert was fascinated by were Brazilian Samba schools.
00:32:47
Speaker
And take what you think of schools and throw it out the window what that word is used because it was communities of people that are preparing for Carnival, right?
00:32:56
Speaker
There would be, our community is going to have this part of a performance in that celebration, right?
00:33:04
Speaker
This point in time, like our neighborhood is going to put on a performance from this time to this time.
00:33:08
Speaker
And so we're going to get together and practice together for this performance.
00:33:13
Speaker
Well, there are people in there that are
00:33:16
Speaker
just such a huge range of ages and skill levels.
00:33:19
Speaker
So there's small children participating, there's grandparents participating in the full range, and people are learning from one another.
00:33:27
Speaker
It's very Vygotsky and sociocultural and the more knowledgeable other, the scaffolding of everybody around it.
00:33:37
Speaker
And
00:33:38
Speaker
constructionism is a huge piece of that, or takes a huge piece of that, that we're going to be learning from the people around us interacting in these makerspaces.
00:33:48
Speaker
And some of it, if it's a more, I don't want to use the traditional word, traditional, but it's what's coming out of my brain right now, makerspace where I'm
00:33:59
Speaker
I'm trying to design this thing for the 3D printer and I'm not quite sure how to use the software while the kid's sitting next to me that, yeah, absolutely.
00:34:06
Speaker
Like, let me show you how to, how to help you do that.
00:34:08
Speaker
Or in a music maker space, like you're talking about, you know, Hey, like you want to learn how to play bass?
00:34:14
Speaker
Like let's come in and learn bass by doing it.
00:34:17
Speaker
Not by, not necessarily by now learn your 12 major scales.
00:34:22
Speaker
Okay.
00:34:22
Speaker
Now you can come in
00:34:24
Speaker
and play that collaboration is a huge, huge, huge part of it.
00:34:31
Speaker
It's such an interesting thing, isn't that?
00:34:32
Speaker
When you compare the Samba school model with, again, what I think about my suburban high school, you know, maybe that's a universal kind of experience.
Challenges in Traditional Band Structures
00:34:41
Speaker
I don't know for Americans to have, but it is kind of bewildering that we just put all the fifth graders and we say, this is a fifth grade band.
00:34:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:50
Speaker
And you don't play next to anybody else who's younger or older.
00:34:53
Speaker
And it really lends itself to the only person, really, then that you are allowed to learn from is then the one adult who is conducting and managing and doing the impossible.
00:35:06
Speaker
possible work that I can only assume band instructors do.
00:35:10
Speaker
But quite frankly, maybe our structures make that work more difficult because there aren't the more knowledgeable others or there aren't more mature peers because we've isolated fifth graders from sixth graders and sixth graders from seventh graders and seventh graders from their high school counterparts and never do they ever interact.
00:35:27
Speaker
And even when those bands put on performances, and you're aware of this, how do they perform them?
00:35:34
Speaker
They perform as a
00:35:35
Speaker
seventh grade band and as an eighth grade band, and then as a, you know, nine, 10th or however your high school is combined to band, right?
00:35:42
Speaker
It is such a fascinating thing to think of what music education could even look like if the inter, not just interdisciplinary, right, but kind of that, if the grade levels were allowed to intermingle and to support each other in that.
00:35:57
Speaker
And yeah, that's just an interesting kind of observation in that.
00:36:01
Speaker
There's so many tangents that we could take off of that because I mean, I know people, myself included, that worked to manufacture experiences that were
00:36:11
Speaker
In Ankeny, we called them vertical, right?
Instrument Exploration for Students
00:36:13
Speaker
Like we're going to make sure that those sixth grade students are getting to interact with the high school students.
00:36:18
Speaker
Now, was it as much pie in the sky as you were describing?
00:36:21
Speaker
Like, no, absolutely not.
00:36:22
Speaker
But working to make those opportunities, man, wouldn't it be cool if your first year experience in band, instead of being the one night that you get to try all of the instruments and then pick, if you had like
00:36:37
Speaker
This is a logistical nightmare, but it's still just fascinating.
00:36:40
Speaker
If you had six weeks on flute and then six weeks on clarinet, this is all an arbitrary amount of time.
00:36:46
Speaker
And then at the end of the year, after you've developed these, there's a ton of musical skills that apply across everything.
00:36:54
Speaker
And then you've got some very specific stuff sprinkled in on top.
00:36:57
Speaker
And then you get to make an informed decision about, hey, I want to play a
00:37:02
Speaker
you know, trombone.
00:37:03
Speaker
That was the one I liked the most.
00:37:05
Speaker
I think that in terms of skill development as it currently exists from beginner to the end of their high school career, that you wouldn't see a dip.
00:37:15
Speaker
You know, if anything, it would stay the same.
00:37:17
Speaker
I would be willing to bet that you would see that that second and third year of band for them would be far above where it used to be because they have a different but probably stronger foundation as they get into it.
00:37:32
Speaker
where do you think that that strength in the foundation comes from just kind of seeing the, seeing how they fit into the whole or kind of seeing the breadth of, of musical expression that's out there?
00:37:42
Speaker
Like, yeah.
00:37:43
Speaker
And, and then too, that it's that idea of transfer of learning, right?
00:37:48
Speaker
Like,
00:37:49
Speaker
Flute player, I mean, are they reading different music?
00:37:52
Speaker
Yes, but it's not as different as you might think.
00:37:56
Speaker
I mean, there's transposition and things like that, but I get to take those skills and apply it on this new instrument, and the vast majority of woodwind instruments will if I add a finger, add a button...
00:38:07
Speaker
going down, the sound gets lower.
00:38:09
Speaker
Like there's concepts that will work across all of the instruments, right?
00:38:13
Speaker
And the valve pattern on brass instruments is the same on all it, right?
00:38:18
Speaker
And so there's just this, this new wealth of knowledge that you can take from what you learned on this instrument to this instrument, which I think creates a stronger foundation there.
00:38:28
Speaker
And I'm a perfect example.
00:38:29
Speaker
I started on trumpet in fifth grade, our 10th grade year, our 10th grade band was a little short on trombones.
00:38:35
Speaker
And so I said,
00:38:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:37
Speaker
Okay.
00:38:37
Speaker
I'll do it.
00:38:38
Speaker
And there's so much that I was able to transfer, even though it was going from treble clef to bass clef and valves to a slide.
00:38:47
Speaker
But there's so much that's similar that all of a sudden, I mean, yes, I was five years older as well, but picking up a trombone was not nearly as difficult because of that foundation of knowledge.
00:39:01
Speaker
God, that's fascinating.
00:39:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:02
Speaker
And I, again, I think about my own musical experiences and right.
00:39:04
Speaker
If I tried to pick up a woodwind now, I would be lost in the woods.
00:39:09
Speaker
I it'd be just as likely for me to do open heart surgery on a whim as it would be to play a clarinet the first time, but with brass instruments, like I could probably figure out a brass instrument in 15 minutes or so, maybe not play anything super competently, but right.
00:39:24
Speaker
The, the basic mechanics of it are so different between those instruments.
00:39:27
Speaker
And
00:39:27
Speaker
Really, I think maybe like percussionists probably get the most broad range of transferability.
00:39:33
Speaker
You know, you've got musical notes on malleted instruments and you've also got, you know, rhythmic patterns on various drums and things.
00:39:41
Speaker
So so they might get the broadest depth of transfer there.
00:39:45
Speaker
Fascinating way just to kind of unpack the way that bands in school work.
00:39:50
Speaker
We talk about reimagining what a classroom education looks like.
00:39:53
Speaker
Well, we're reimagining what that band room education looks like.
00:39:56
Speaker
You mentioned logistical nightmare.
00:39:58
Speaker
Yes, I'm sure.
00:39:59
Speaker
At the same time, right?
00:40:00
Speaker
Is it worth, and this is totally hypothetical, you don't have to say yes or no, right?
00:40:05
Speaker
Would it be worth at least launching those experiments?
00:40:09
Speaker
If only to then see literally what's the worst that could happen?
00:40:12
Speaker
Kids are more interested in playing music for the rest of their lives?
00:40:16
Speaker
Or...
00:40:17
Speaker
Or, you know, like I think so much of the, again, let's call it standard experience of band perhaps is more of those, are those legacy projects, those prestige building things, you know, but playing at solos and, you
00:40:32
Speaker
performing at Allstate band, you know, winning awards for your school and kind of about acquiring those things.
00:40:39
Speaker
But yeah, I wonder if it would be worth it at some point to reevaluate the conveyor belt of music education that we apply everywhere else and we say, you know, is detrimental to the long-term curiosity and things of the rest of school, if that applies
Resources in Music Education
00:40:54
Speaker
to band too.
00:40:54
Speaker
But yeah.
00:40:55
Speaker
So I wonder then, as it, maybe if we start to wrap up here, thinking of constructionism or constructivism as it's applied to music instruction in particular, like who are you reading?
00:41:07
Speaker
Who are leaders that you are looking up to who are motivating you?
00:41:11
Speaker
What media can listeners as learners of this who want to seek that out more, what can they connect with?
00:41:18
Speaker
Because I'm in my doctoral program, the vast majority of the stuff I'm going to recommend is on the scholarly side and probably less so on the fun experimental side.
00:41:29
Speaker
But to start on the fun experimental side, there is a...
00:41:32
Speaker
program called Little Kids Rock.
00:41:35
Speaker
And it has, although it says little kids in the name, it's modern band, it's rock band.
00:41:41
Speaker
It's a curriculum for exposing kids to learning how to play piano, bass, guitar, drums.
00:41:48
Speaker
And they are doing some fascinating work.
00:41:51
Speaker
That was that rock band class that I took at BU was built out of some of those things.
00:41:58
Speaker
But there's a whole lot of really, really neat stuff going on there.
00:42:01
Speaker
And then even if you as an individual listener or you, Nick Covington, are interested in messing around with like loops and things like that, there's a free web-based service called SoundTrap.com.
00:42:16
Speaker
And-
00:42:16
Speaker
You can, it's like if you've ever used GarageBand or Audacity or things like that, but they have this built-in loop library.
00:42:24
Speaker
And some of the loops you have to pay for if you, you know, but there's tons of free stuff in there that you can create with as well.
00:42:31
Speaker
And they just recently, or at least I discovered recently, a feature where you can type in,
00:42:37
Speaker
An artist that you like, you know, Doja Cat.
00:42:42
Speaker
Right.
00:42:43
Speaker
And here are loops that we think sound like Doja Cat.
00:42:47
Speaker
How cool that like students can start by recreating and then move to creating from from the things that are in there.
00:42:59
Speaker
or even begin to analyze what characterizes an artist's sound.
00:43:03
Speaker
You know, what makes this sound like a particular artist, right?
00:43:06
Speaker
Is it instrumentation?
00:43:07
Speaker
Is it a production quality or, you know, something that that's in post or is it, you know, something about the artists themselves?
00:43:15
Speaker
So, oh yeah, that's a, that's a fantastic idea.
00:43:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:18
Speaker
And then in terms of some of the more, the more scholarly stuff there, I mentioned it was Joseph Shively was the constructivist beginning band.
00:43:29
Speaker
Jackie Wiggins is the teaching for musical understanding.
00:43:34
Speaker
In terms of makerspaces, the thing that really got me into it was twofold.
00:43:40
Speaker
One, I did a long-term sub job out here for a teacher at the Sigma Lab.
00:43:46
Speaker
like the Greek letter Sigma.
00:43:48
Speaker
And it's a maker space at Charlottesville High School.
00:43:50
Speaker
They have a fairly structured like engineering curriculum that the students go through towards like a capstone project where you're designing some of your own stuff.
00:43:58
Speaker
But you can look up the Sigma lab at Charlottesville High School and the stuff that's going on there.
00:44:02
Speaker
It's just absolutely fascinating.
00:44:04
Speaker
Erica Halverson is a professor of curriculum and instruction at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
00:44:11
Speaker
And she and a few other different scholars did research on learning in makerspaces.
00:44:18
Speaker
They have several different articles about learning in the making and tying it.
00:44:24
Speaker
Erica is a theater artist.
00:44:26
Speaker
And a lot of the stuff then is situated in
00:44:29
Speaker
arts learning and how can the arts connect to what's going on.
00:44:35
Speaker
She just recently published a book entitled How the Arts Can Save Education, Transforming Teaching, Learning, and Instruction.
00:44:42
Speaker
And there's just some fascinating things in there.
00:44:45
Speaker
Yes, about makerspaces or how makerspaces relate to art education, but then too, what the rest of education can learn from the way that arts education works.
00:44:57
Speaker
There's some neat stuff happening makerspace wise at the MIT media lab.
00:45:01
Speaker
It's kind of the modern evolution of Papert's group that was there working in the 80s.
00:45:07
Speaker
The gentleman leading it, his name is Mitch Resnick, and his group of researchers is called the Lifelong Kindergarten Group.
00:45:15
Speaker
And it's all about play.
00:45:17
Speaker
and how we learn from play.
00:45:19
Speaker
And we continue to develop experiences like, why isn't my senior year of high school more like my kindergarten class?
00:45:27
Speaker
There's similar stuff happening at Harvard.
00:45:30
Speaker
Harvard's group, the equivalent is called Project Zero.
00:45:33
Speaker
And they've published some more research on
00:45:36
Speaker
STEAM integration with makerspaces.
00:45:39
Speaker
So not only science, technology, engineering, manufacturing, but arts and how are we seeing the arts play out in makerspaces.
00:45:46
Speaker
And then they also are doing a lot of things about identity, the identity of a maker and the democratization of makerspaces.
00:45:54
Speaker
Let's make sure that we're not doing things that are limiting it to stereotypes that we might have of certain students.
00:46:03
Speaker
Just on the note of research, though, when we think of like research-based practices, they tend to be, again, typical practices.
00:46:12
Speaker
When you kind of think of an idea like constructionism being sort of a new thing, Papert wrote his first book in what, 1980?
00:46:18
Speaker
And we're talking about computers like an Apple II or something like that.
00:46:23
Speaker
I mean, maybe even prior to that that I just don't have an awareness of.
00:46:26
Speaker
So it's a pedagogy now that's older than we are.
00:46:29
Speaker
It's 40 years old plus.
00:46:32
Speaker
To say that it's not like a research-backed practice, you might just have to work a little bit harder to connect those spheres.
00:46:38
Speaker
But the fact that MIT and Harvard and things are pursuing it as well, I think probably give it a little bit of more legitimacy too.
00:46:45
Speaker
But well, cool.
00:46:47
Speaker
Burton, how can people find you, connect with you and your work?
00:46:51
Speaker
Where can we find you?
00:46:53
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:46:54
Speaker
I have a blog at BurtonHobley.com.
00:46:58
Speaker
It's B-U-R-T-O-N.
00:47:01
Speaker
H-A-B-L-E.
00:47:03
Speaker
And then it's Burton Hobbly on Twitter and on, on Facebook.
00:47:07
Speaker
I've been publishing a lot about my work at BU, my interest in makerspace, makerspaces.
00:47:14
Speaker
And there's stuff.
00:47:15
Speaker
If you really want to go digging, there's stuff about the work that we were doing in Ankeny with that vertical teaching and band.
00:47:21
Speaker
Some of my thoughts about Nick, no, but some, some of my thoughts about as I've developed as a progressive educator, because of the work that Nick has done that,
00:47:32
Speaker
That is definitely in there.
00:47:34
Speaker
And I would love to have conversations.
00:47:37
Speaker
I'm sure that you have in some way like outed me to my music education community as an outsider now.
00:47:43
Speaker
God, I hope so.
00:47:45
Speaker
That was my goal.
00:47:46
Speaker
I was trying to pin you to the wall, make you take a hard stance and you wiggled out of it every time.
00:47:53
Speaker
You're a slippery guy.
00:47:55
Speaker
But no, it's been awesome to talk to you.
00:47:58
Speaker
I mean, as always.
00:47:59
Speaker
And I think we've managed to capture here in nearly an hour in our recorded time, just a fraction of the kinds of conversations that we've had in the last 10 years as we've both been on kind of our own.
00:48:13
Speaker
journey through education and pedagogy and practice and trying to navigate the tension in all of those things.
00:48:20
Speaker
So it's always awesome to, you know, check in on where you're at in your journey as well.
00:48:25
Speaker
So thanks for taking some time this afternoon.
00:48:27
Speaker
No, thank you for having me.
00:48:28
Speaker
This has been fun.